Sorry I missed the last session, spending a lot of time working on Hera at the moment and it's taking up a lot of my time. Though I have to agree with ObliviousSight that we may have to hold a second session, might be good for those that can't make it for the sunday playtest.
The thing I like most about these sessions is how we have several regulars and people that make it when they can. Its a really good dynamic, and the games always feel fresh.
I've given a few people admin rights and Its been nice to see the server get some use out of various map testing sessions, outside of our routine Sunday event.
That said the 3 month server trial is coming to an end in 2 weeks or so. Now I've spoken to a few of you with regards to contributing towards a renewal of the server (I'll be doing so regardless of whether anyone does or not) but I hope that once we have some more 'owners' of the server people will feel more comfortable with using it for their own purposes and more routine events will hopefully crop up.
The sever actually gets very little use from public NS2 players, despite running official maps when we're not on it. So in the future I'd like it to be running custom maps most of the time. I would also like it to be seen as a testing ground for custom maps and a hangout for us ns2 mappers. But that'll take some work and time.
If anyone has any suggestions for how we use the server for events or just in general, please post them here.
Moreover if I missed anyone when I was speaking about contributing to the renewal who might be interested please PM me. That said I don't want anyone to feel pressured into 'buying' into the server just because they've attended our sessions, I wont be removing admin rights from anyone who doesn't help or anything silly like that. I just feel the server has a small but fun and growing community building around it, It'd be happier if it was owned by that community rather than anyone person....
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I think I speak for everyone who has attended if I say we are all very grateful for what you have started. I did not realize the scope of your contribution, well, I just assumed servers spawned like trees in the interland. Anyway, would you be open to say how much you pay? (or pm me or i'll catch you on steam). I assume, across several of us, that a contribution doesn't represent much and I would be willing to put in the pot.
These sessions have gained popularity, and I have passed due to full server. Though I don't know if I would like the server slot size to increase and its not like you can add that much more people anyway. It would be nice to maintain a 'conventional' number on the server for testing reasons. I like that it is not limited to mappers, though it is nice to have the bunch of us together. I think we should just continue as so and ask a non-mapper if he can free a spot if a mapper wants to join. And if that gets out of hand think of something else.
It would be nice if it was recognized on a broader scale among the community. Maybe if the server explicitly expressed itself as the home of custommap testing and development, maybe people would join whenever to test maps, knowing that the server only plays such maps, and knowing that they come to contribute, maybe they'll come again. It would have to be clear to people that join. Maybe a custom RR that is independent of the map? ( That would need to be in the .level file, needing a separate steam workshop entry. So maybe that can be a free to use RR for maps in very early stage, so not on every map but comes around enough for players to know where they are and the purpose of this server. )
It would be nice to have a stronger, regular, playerbase for the server. Continuous testing in some way. But I wouldn't want the mapper's reunion to be spread out.
I'm more than happy to help with the server costs. The Sunday tests are quite possibly the biggest highlight of my week. I would be sad to see us split up over different days as well, and increasing the server size brings it's own balance issues which would skew how we see the maps (I would love to try Sewlek's Mod as well, but that would also taint feedback on maps).
I like the idea of the server becoming known for map testing and having the custom maps more available during the week for anybody in the community. That might lessen the demand slightly for people to join on sunday, though having non-mappers present is a good thing in my opinion.
Evil_bob's idea of a custom RR for maps in development is a nice, elegant solution. Maybe combine it with labelling the server in the browser as a testing ground and making a cross-post in the general forum to make the wider community aware that such a server exists?
On the topic of what else we could use the server for, I personally would like to see more time for design discussion, focused combat flow testing, lighting and texturing examination of official or nearly completed customs maps, etc. In short, opportunities for us to learn from each other, solidify our own individual ideas through discussion and helping each other out. As long as such discussions don't start to squash a mapper's personal creativity and become about 'The only way to map'. Maybe even organising some competitive play for a map or two and allowing mappers to sit in Spec examining how these players use and exploit the map, while also gathering some feedback from those players (You may need a thick skin for that! )
-WildCat-Cape Town, South AfricaJoin Date: 2008-07-19Member: 64664Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I'm very interested in getting involved here. I'm hoping to be able to find the time to do some map design for NS2 soon. In the mean time, I'm excited to help other mappers test their maps and hopefully learn a thing or two on the way.
See my (aging) previous work for CS:Source on my website.
And here's my Steam profile. I'll add you on Steam when I get home from work, @Howser.
Perhaps someone more technically minded than me can implement some sever side changes to enable voting, a join message warning of the gray boxes and other features that'll help the server stay busy.
Cost wise, for 20 player server (+2 from our current count and about as high as I think we should go) its £36 a month from multiplay, for a six month period you get a discount of a 15% and for a year its 20% off. so thats £162/€184.68/$254.34 for six months or £324/€369.36/$508.68 for a year. Multi-play did have some problems at the start with uploading mods and using the workshop. However it seems fine for the most part now, also they have a clanpay method where as many people as you want can be owners of the server. The simplicity of payments and good pings make me think we should stay with them. However I've heard there is cheaper alternatives, I'll have to do some research. Any suggestions of good European server providers for ns2? Do you think we should stick with 18 players?
Currently me and troop split the costs of the server we can get another 4 'owners' it'll only be £30 each for 6 months, I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to pay anymore than that.
Given current interest in the sessions I find it a bit hard to keep track of everyone. mappers were always intended to take priority, but we have collected some stray pubs that just really enjoy custom maps. they're always welcome to fill the player count but you're right evil_bob, we should always make room for people who are involved in the mapping scene. I'll set all admins to ruthless mode :P besides If we can keep the server busy (intermittently) during the week, I'm sure they wont be upset that they've missed out on their gray box fix for the week.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I'll gladly pitch in as well.
Also, if we get map voting, we also may need some on-the-fly way to disable it. Remember that guy voting to concede during last Sunday's map test? There's no conceding during map tests!
LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Aye as I said the otherweek when you mentioned this I will help pay for the server. Server size wise idk take a vote (its up to you) I know quite a few people want to keep it at 18 or even less I myself would like it 20plyr would be a nice round figure (but I am making a large map!). I often float around on the server during the week and the server ends up populated in under 5mins (which is good!) but thats on official maps. Custom map wise there are (and will) be plenty of maps to keep it varied ! so I am all for having custom maps on during the week.
Agree with flat trying to conceded with 2 techpoints utter madness !
Yeah I've noticed that. but my sexy 50 boxes of gray wont be ready... not for another week or two!
Its almost that time again, under an hour to go! We've got new builds of caged and Kodiak. Any others?
okay we got four maps.
Kodiak,
Colony,
Caged
Origin.
I'll leave that as the official lineup for tonight we can play whatever on request once we've got these gray boxes out the way :P
15 minutes guys, jump on mumble!
I don't think I can make today as it's Easter and I'll be with family I've really started to look forward to these play testing sessions - they are some of the most fun games!
Unfortunately I'm not going to be able make tonight's session either. Flaterectomy, Loki and obliviousight have full admin control of the server and group so they'll be dealing with any submissions for tonight.
I believe we have new builds of Colony, prison and Goliath also kodiak and caged need further testing. But They're in charge tonight so that could change.
Have fun guys
Ten minutes til testing. Suit, boot and jump on mumble! We have origin, kodiak, goliath and caged lined up and we'll see what falls from the tree otherwise!
Sorry I had to bail towards the end of the sunday session guys, I was just too tired to really be able to contribute and was getting grouchy besides. If anything I said during the test seemed off, I apologise.
I'm going to try and organise a classic (read: remade NS1 Maps) rotation during the week sometime, if people are up for it.
Now, there is a wall of text and queries incoming because I feel we aren't achieving as much as we could with the maps, server, trying to foster a community and gather feedback. I hope that this will 'spark' (I know, sorry) a discussion within the group and from those outside as well, so that we are able to form a general concensus on how to proceed.
With how popular the regular sunday tests have become, it has become apparent that there is a demand for custom maps, and we will be moving toward putting custom maps in the regular rotation. Now, how do we approach this? Do we eliminate the official maps and go 100% custom at all times? Do we filter in the NSL versions of the official maps? Or do we include the officials (all or a selection) as well?
How do we decide which custom maps should become part of the rotation? Do we put everything in? Or do we vet the maps? If so, by what criteria do we vet them? Do we limit it to maps that are currently being worked on? Do we just test the maps before hand to ensure that everything is technically correct with them (Such as minimap alignment, vent marking etc)? Or do we impose further limits? Is it worth gathering feedback from regular players and competitives on what they would expect from a server that is a testing ground for custom maps?
There has been some discussion on setting up a separate, public group for players interested in testing to join. Should we start a separate group or open up the one we have currently?
Are there ways in which we can encourage feedback from players on the maps? And where would we like them to provide this feedback? Here on the mapping forum? Within a steam group discussion? Comment on the workshop mod itself? Talking to an SCC member who is willing to pass it along? All of the above? We will need a way for players to easily find out which map they are currently playing as well so anybody got some ideas on how to best do this?
What do we do about maps for mods outside of vanilla NS2, such as Combat or Marine vs. Marine? Do we limit the server to just the standard game? Swap the server function over to these mods every so often or hold events for these maps?
Talking of mods, what about tools that will help us with running the server and gathering data on the maps? I know that NS2stats could be of some use to us, and that DAK has additional functionality, but I'm not really familiar with what exactly it provides. Do we know of other mods that could be useful?
What about attracting players to the server in the first place? There have been suggestions of contacting popular casters, clans and well known pubbers. Making a song and dance in the general forum is another way. Are there other ways in which we can get the message out?
All of these things above have been touched on lightly before during sundays etc, but I think that an open discussion like this could serve us well. If anybody thinks of anything that needs to be discussed that I have missed, please bring it up.
Now I'll quit being such a worry-wart and get return to my lerk roost in the rafters.
haha don't worry about leaving early on sunday. Busy easter weekends and epic 1 hour+ games left most of us grumpy! I was hoping to call a meeting in mumble about this over the weekend but its been on RL issue after another.
You bring up a lot of interesting questions but I'd also like to hear you personal feelings on these ideas.
For me sundays have become somewhat bloated; playing 7 to 9 maps back to back leaves us all feeling a tad burnt out. I personally feel we need to be a bit more heavy handed with the restrictions on maps and the rotation. Ultimately 4 vanilla maps and 1 combat is probably about as much as we should realistically be sitting through. Sundays should be a showcase for four/five good developing maps that have had substantial (but function) changes that need testing in a representative, full server game scenario.
Now obviously we'll have to discuss and decide which maps we play beforehand. Rotating them fairly, depending on when they were last play and whether they've been significantly updated or not.
This may initially sound unfair but we now have five admins who can organise random tests during the week, the server will run custom maps 24 hours a day with a voting system (hopefully) and I believe we should have a more open and loose test on wednesdays. So when its said and done all the maps will be tested throughout the week.
The number of maps is steadily growing and it's become hard to play them all each sunday, structuring sundays as our main event then spreading more general testing throughout the week is the only solution I can think of to prevent people getting annoyed with the length of the sunday sessions.
Now for me personally i think we should remove all official maps for the standard rotation and just have custom maps that fit a basic standard; Working minimap, no game breaking bugs and basic optimization.
With regards to mods you have to manually activate and deactivate them before the map change so I'm not sure that we should/could circulate them everyday. It would probably also confuse and turn off a lot of pubbers just looking for some new maps to test on. I do think we could have sessions testing mods out if anyone was interesting in organizing a mod testing day that would be awesome.
NS2 stats, DAK and other mods are a good idea. I'll talk to troop about implementing them and the features they provide.
Creating a public open group is also a really cool idea. though i believe it should be separate to our existing invite-only group, just so NS2 mappers can easily contact each other.
Well thats my feelings of the future of the SCC. I'm interested to hear what other people feel we should do or what they want from the group and server as it moves into the next stages of its evolution.
thanks
could be nice if you provide a list of all the maps that will be playbable in the server. if the server is only custom maps 24/7 that means i have a reason to come back to ns2 :P
now we just need more servers doing the same thing
Hi Guys!
I'm not a map modder, but I do love the idea of play-testing new maps and contributing to ideas and comments, and maybe start on the modding myself someday!. Is it possible to join you in the testing of maps?
Since I am not a financial contributor for the server (but I plan to, when my poor game developers wage allows :-D !), I dont know how much weight my voice have , but I agree with the idea of custom maps only server.
I think we should put in the rotation only the most "playable" maps (regardles the greybox). The most unbalanced or crazy maps we should keep out of list until they won't be fixed. Although they should be kept accesible trought the votesystem - just for case.
As for the Sunday goes, I agree that 4+1 model is the most bearable one and the maps should be choosen according to designers requests. Also mid-week custom or ad-hoc sessions sounds cool.
Dunno about the server settings but a vote system is a must if you're going to have custom maps only for the server map rotation. Splitting the testing to 2 days or having the sunday 4+1 and some smaller tests along the week sounds great, I'd happy to join any testing when it's happening.
We should probably get a public steam group so we could do some announcements for all who wants to join testing during the week, since it's probably hard to track all the individual mappers if they are trying to organize tests.
Comments
I've given a few people admin rights and Its been nice to see the server get some use out of various map testing sessions, outside of our routine Sunday event.
That said the 3 month server trial is coming to an end in 2 weeks or so. Now I've spoken to a few of you with regards to contributing towards a renewal of the server (I'll be doing so regardless of whether anyone does or not) but I hope that once we have some more 'owners' of the server people will feel more comfortable with using it for their own purposes and more routine events will hopefully crop up.
The sever actually gets very little use from public NS2 players, despite running official maps when we're not on it. So in the future I'd like it to be running custom maps most of the time. I would also like it to be seen as a testing ground for custom maps and a hangout for us ns2 mappers. But that'll take some work and time.
If anyone has any suggestions for how we use the server for events or just in general, please post them here.
Moreover if I missed anyone when I was speaking about contributing to the renewal who might be interested please PM me. That said I don't want anyone to feel pressured into 'buying' into the server just because they've attended our sessions, I wont be removing admin rights from anyone who doesn't help or anything silly like that. I just feel the server has a small but fun and growing community building around it, It'd be happier if it was owned by that community rather than anyone person....
These sessions have gained popularity, and I have passed due to full server. Though I don't know if I would like the server slot size to increase and its not like you can add that much more people anyway. It would be nice to maintain a 'conventional' number on the server for testing reasons. I like that it is not limited to mappers, though it is nice to have the bunch of us together. I think we should just continue as so and ask a non-mapper if he can free a spot if a mapper wants to join. And if that gets out of hand think of something else.
It would be nice if it was recognized on a broader scale among the community. Maybe if the server explicitly expressed itself as the home of custommap testing and development, maybe people would join whenever to test maps, knowing that the server only plays such maps, and knowing that they come to contribute, maybe they'll come again. It would have to be clear to people that join. Maybe a custom RR that is independent of the map? ( That would need to be in the .level file, needing a separate steam workshop entry. So maybe that can be a free to use RR for maps in very early stage, so not on every map but comes around enough for players to know where they are and the purpose of this server. )
It would be nice to have a stronger, regular, playerbase for the server. Continuous testing in some way. But I wouldn't want the mapper's reunion to be spread out.
I like the idea of the server becoming known for map testing and having the custom maps more available during the week for anybody in the community. That might lessen the demand slightly for people to join on sunday, though having non-mappers present is a good thing in my opinion.
Evil_bob's idea of a custom RR for maps in development is a nice, elegant solution. Maybe combine it with labelling the server in the browser as a testing ground and making a cross-post in the general forum to make the wider community aware that such a server exists?
On the topic of what else we could use the server for, I personally would like to see more time for design discussion, focused combat flow testing, lighting and texturing examination of official or nearly completed customs maps, etc. In short, opportunities for us to learn from each other, solidify our own individual ideas through discussion and helping each other out. As long as such discussions don't start to squash a mapper's personal creativity and become about 'The only way to map'. Maybe even organising some competitive play for a map or two and allowing mappers to sit in Spec examining how these players use and exploit the map, while also gathering some feedback from those players (You may need a thick skin for that!
See my (aging) previous work for CS:Source on my website.
And here's my Steam profile. I'll add you on Steam when I get home from work, @Howser.
Cost wise, for 20 player server (+2 from our current count and about as high as I think we should go) its £36 a month from multiplay, for a six month period you get a discount of a 15% and for a year its 20% off. so thats £162/€184.68/$254.34 for six months or £324/€369.36/$508.68 for a year. Multi-play did have some problems at the start with uploading mods and using the workshop. However it seems fine for the most part now, also they have a clanpay method where as many people as you want can be owners of the server. The simplicity of payments and good pings make me think we should stay with them. However I've heard there is cheaper alternatives, I'll have to do some research. Any suggestions of good European server providers for ns2? Do you think we should stick with 18 players?
Currently me and troop split the costs of the server we can get another 4 'owners' it'll only be £30 each for 6 months, I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to pay anymore than that.
Given current interest in the sessions I find it a bit hard to keep track of everyone. mappers were always intended to take priority, but we have collected some stray pubs that just really enjoy custom maps. they're always welcome to fill the player count but you're right evil_bob, we should always make room for people who are involved in the mapping scene. I'll set all admins to ruthless mode :P besides If we can keep the server busy (intermittently) during the week, I'm sure they wont be upset that they've missed out on their gray box fix for the week.
Also, if we get map voting, we also may need some on-the-fly way to disable it. Remember that guy voting to concede during last Sunday's map test? There's no conceding during map tests!
Agree with flat trying to conceded with 2 techpoints utter madness !
Its almost that time again, under an hour to go! We've got new builds of caged and Kodiak. Any others?
Kodiak,
Colony,
Caged
Origin.
I'll leave that as the official lineup for tonight we can play whatever on request once we've got these gray boxes out the way :P
15 minutes guys, jump on mumble!
I believe we have new builds of Colony, prison and Goliath also kodiak and caged need further testing. But They're in charge tonight so that could change.
Have fun guys
Have fun!
I'm going to try and organise a classic (read: remade NS1 Maps) rotation during the week sometime, if people are up for it.
Now, there is a wall of text and queries incoming because I feel we aren't achieving as much as we could with the maps, server, trying to foster a community and gather feedback. I hope that this will 'spark' (I know, sorry) a discussion within the group and from those outside as well, so that we are able to form a general concensus on how to proceed.
With how popular the regular sunday tests have become, it has become apparent that there is a demand for custom maps, and we will be moving toward putting custom maps in the regular rotation. Now, how do we approach this? Do we eliminate the official maps and go 100% custom at all times? Do we filter in the NSL versions of the official maps? Or do we include the officials (all or a selection) as well?
How do we decide which custom maps should become part of the rotation? Do we put everything in? Or do we vet the maps? If so, by what criteria do we vet them? Do we limit it to maps that are currently being worked on? Do we just test the maps before hand to ensure that everything is technically correct with them (Such as minimap alignment, vent marking etc)? Or do we impose further limits? Is it worth gathering feedback from regular players and competitives on what they would expect from a server that is a testing ground for custom maps?
There has been some discussion on setting up a separate, public group for players interested in testing to join. Should we start a separate group or open up the one we have currently?
Are there ways in which we can encourage feedback from players on the maps? And where would we like them to provide this feedback? Here on the mapping forum? Within a steam group discussion? Comment on the workshop mod itself? Talking to an SCC member who is willing to pass it along? All of the above? We will need a way for players to easily find out which map they are currently playing as well so anybody got some ideas on how to best do this?
What do we do about maps for mods outside of vanilla NS2, such as Combat or Marine vs. Marine? Do we limit the server to just the standard game? Swap the server function over to these mods every so often or hold events for these maps?
Talking of mods, what about tools that will help us with running the server and gathering data on the maps? I know that NS2stats could be of some use to us, and that DAK has additional functionality, but I'm not really familiar with what exactly it provides. Do we know of other mods that could be useful?
What about attracting players to the server in the first place? There have been suggestions of contacting popular casters, clans and well known pubbers. Making a song and dance in the general forum is another way. Are there other ways in which we can get the message out?
All of these things above have been touched on lightly before during sundays etc, but I think that an open discussion like this could serve us well. If anybody thinks of anything that needs to be discussed that I have missed, please bring it up.
Now I'll quit being such a worry-wart and get return to my lerk roost in the rafters.
You bring up a lot of interesting questions but I'd also like to hear you personal feelings on these ideas.
For me sundays have become somewhat bloated; playing 7 to 9 maps back to back leaves us all feeling a tad burnt out. I personally feel we need to be a bit more heavy handed with the restrictions on maps and the rotation. Ultimately 4 vanilla maps and 1 combat is probably about as much as we should realistically be sitting through. Sundays should be a showcase for four/five good developing maps that have had substantial (but function) changes that need testing in a representative, full server game scenario.
Now obviously we'll have to discuss and decide which maps we play beforehand. Rotating them fairly, depending on when they were last play and whether they've been significantly updated or not.
This may initially sound unfair but we now have five admins who can organise random tests during the week, the server will run custom maps 24 hours a day with a voting system (hopefully) and I believe we should have a more open and loose test on wednesdays. So when its said and done all the maps will be tested throughout the week.
The number of maps is steadily growing and it's become hard to play them all each sunday, structuring sundays as our main event then spreading more general testing throughout the week is the only solution I can think of to prevent people getting annoyed with the length of the sunday sessions.
Now for me personally i think we should remove all official maps for the standard rotation and just have custom maps that fit a basic standard; Working minimap, no game breaking bugs and basic optimization.
With regards to mods you have to manually activate and deactivate them before the map change so I'm not sure that we should/could circulate them everyday. It would probably also confuse and turn off a lot of pubbers just looking for some new maps to test on. I do think we could have sessions testing mods out if anyone was interesting in organizing a mod testing day that would be awesome.
NS2 stats, DAK and other mods are a good idea. I'll talk to troop about implementing them and the features they provide.
Creating a public open group is also a really cool idea. though i believe it should be separate to our existing invite-only group, just so NS2 mappers can easily contact each other.
Well thats my feelings of the future of the SCC. I'm interested to hear what other people feel we should do or what they want from the group and server as it moves into the next stages of its evolution.
thanks
now we just need more servers doing the same thing
I think we could sort this out on sunday ? decided which customs and post a list ?
I'm not a map modder, but I do love the idea of play-testing new maps and contributing to ideas and comments, and maybe start on the modding myself someday!. Is it possible to join you in the testing of maps?
Worst thing that can happen is that you get kicked to free a spot for a mapper whose map is being tested.
Since I am not a financial contributor for the server (but I plan to, when my poor game developers wage allows :-D !), I dont know how much weight my voice have
I think we should put in the rotation only the most "playable" maps (regardles the greybox). The most unbalanced or crazy maps we should keep out of list until they won't be fixed. Although they should be kept accesible trought the votesystem - just for case.
As for the Sunday goes, I agree that 4+1 model is the most bearable one and the maps should be choosen according to designers requests. Also mid-week custom or ad-hoc sessions sounds cool.
We should probably get a public steam group so we could do some announcements for all who wants to join testing during the week, since it's probably hard to track all the individual mappers if they are trying to organize tests.