End the jump spam

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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited June 2011
    I would rather have a stamina system than being unable to do a vital game mechanic like shooting while in the air.

    Just make the 100% stamina system with each jump costing 30%. And you can jump again when you get the stamina back at 30%

    Tweak the values, tie in sprinting and sprint jumps if you feel like it. And I'd love it way more than being unable to shoot while jumping.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members Posts: 1,397
    It's nothing to do with realism or stopping people from jumping. It's getting rid of a bad gameplay mechanic. Either you should lose speed upon landing (ala NS1 and CS) or you shouldn't be able to shoot while in mid air.

    Doing either of these 2 things barely effects any other aspect of the gameplay and really the only reason you could be arguing not to have this change is to keep jump spamming in. I don't really see any reason to do that.

    It looks ridiculous. It's frustrating to play against and it takes very little skill or effort. Getting rid of it would make combat more fluid and more about quick reactions, aim and movement skill.
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  • thecowsaysmoothecowsaysmoo Join Date: 2008-02-02 Member: 63557Members Posts: 212 Advanced user
    I think it should just be like counter strike. While jumping accuracy goes way down(reticule gets really big), when marines land they get accuracy back. I dislike the idea of being able to jump and shoot, but then when back on the ground you have a "cooldown" that just makes no sense. You should still be able to jump and shoot, just not be able to jump shoot and aim.
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  • SkwareSkware Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58125Members Posts: 113
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 19 2011, 05:52 PM) »
    Everything is a cap on ability, how well you can perform within those caps is skill.



    Cutting the sentence down, I assume this is your argument. What i was saying is why should we lower the cap, making it more limiting, when we could leave the skill ceiling higher to allow even more room for improvement within a player?
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members Posts: 1,397
    QUOTE (Skware @ Jun 19 2011, 10:19 PM) »
    Cutting the sentence down, I assume this is your argument. What i was saying is why should we lower the cap, making it more limiting, when we could leave the skill ceiling higher to allow even more room for improvement within a player?


    Fixing this won't lower the skill ceiling. If anything it will force the marines to play better.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members Posts: 1,850
    QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 19 2011, 04:26 PM) »
    Fixing this won't lower the skill ceiling. If anything it will force the marines to play better.

    Exactly; there's no "skill" in spamming the jump button. It's just an awkward tactic that causes unnecessary difficulties for Skulks and is probably covering up a much more serious issue in Marine v Skulk combat balance.

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            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    edited June 2011
    Gameplay -
    Still dont see how jumping makes it harder for aliens. Theres no bhop so jumping doesnt make you go faster. Slowing on jump in cs makes sense because both teams aim guns and because the game makes use of recoil. This is not the case in ns where a melee is going to hit whether your in mid air or not. If your having trouble killing a jumping marine, then i can assure you you'd be having more trouble with circle strafers and sprint reloaders.
    Infact, jumping locks in a marines trajectory of movement for the entire moment he's midair so you could possibly argue that jumping is in fact handicapping the marine.

    Simulation -
    Really wouldn't want to see ns2 depart from its arcade shooter roots. There are tons of simulation shooters out there if thats what tickles your fancy. This is gun vs melee, movement needs to be fluid.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • SilverAxSilverAx Join Date: 2003-10-26 Member: 21976Members Posts: 411
    edited June 2011
    Instead of 'fixing' Marine jump you should look at why they do it in the first place.

    To avoid being hit.

    Now why use jump? Because Marine movement in its current form is clunky. Back-peddling is useless, there is no point in using it. So the next best thing to 'avoid' attacks is to jump around like a fool.

    Make marines more mobile when they are on their feet.

    It is also a bit hard to compare other games and their mechanics to NS2.

    Aliens need to get into melee range to inflict damage (ignoring Lerk) where as Marines want to be as far away from Aliens as possible as their guns will rip them to shreds.

    If maps were made more open and less claustrophobic then having movement impairment wouldn't be such a big deal. However, most if not all official maps will have small corridors, choke points, low ceilings etc. Essentially the entire map is working against Marine's strength, which is their range and the firepower they can bring over a large distance. Sure this is offset by better guns/armour etc but it doesn't resolve the underlying issue we're talking about, which is why marines jump in the first place.
  • ArkilaeArkilae Join Date: 2004-08-26 Member: 30923Members Posts: 24
    edited June 2011
    Strafe jumping is a god damn art, ski jumping was a god damn art, dodge jumping is still a god damn art.

    Learn to counter move and circle strafe the marines.
  • layzorclayzorc Join Date: 2011-06-18 Member: 105198Members Posts: 22 Advanced user
    Strafe and jumping while shooting is the only way to do some damage to the overpowered fades before you die. At least keep this in mind if you change it.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members Posts: 3,365
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 19 2011, 05:41 PM) »
    Exactly; there's no "skill" in spamming the jump button. It's just an awkward tactic that causes unnecessary difficulties for Skulks and is probably covering up a much more serious issue in Marine v Skulk combat balance.


    Air control dodging skulks is an art. Seriously. I've 1v3 Skulks using all my lmg and pistol ammo by dodging their bites.

    Air control dodging Marine bullets is an art. I've 1v5 as a Skulk by dodging bullets and jumping around and off walls.

    QUOTE (Arkilae @ Jun 19 2011, 06:50 PM) »
    Strafe jumping is a god damn art, ski jumping was a god damn art, dodge jumping is still a god damn art.

    Learn to counter move and circle strafe the marines.


    I don't advocate ski jumping / bunnyhopping to be implemented, but you speak truth about knowing how to use jumping and air control to really use the environment to your advantage.

    Also, I'm pretty sure bit proc problems due to server tickrates and fps are a separate but relevant issue here. When they get fixed, it'll be way easier to land bites.
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  • IronsoulIronsoul Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Members Posts: 869 Advanced user
    I'm in the drop the topic camp. I personally like to jump spam sometimes when theres a skulk freaking me out.
  • fireb0rnfireb0rn Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69180Members Posts: 1
    The problem with bunnyhopping in other games is that it preserves movement speed increases from airstrafing and etc. Obviously not the case here. There's no need to limit marine dodging, ability to shoot into vents, and make the game feel sluggish because novice players have trouble aiming upwards. It will get better when there's less lag.
  • SnazzSnazz Join Date: 2007-09-30 Member: 62482Members Posts: 66
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 20 2011, 01:51 AM) »
    nice to see you finally admit that you are willing to impair movement.

    Finally? Admit? Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else.

    Anyway if making humans in a game move like humans should is 'impairing movement' yes, that's perfectly fine in my view. You can play as aliens if you want greater movement abilities, Marines rely on technology to survive as they are "only human".

    QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 20 2011, 01:51 AM) »
    Jumping is not "meant" for anything, it's just an ability we have.

    It allows you to get over obstacles (eg. props, railings, structures), although vaulting would alternatively serve that purpose.

    QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 20 2011, 01:51 AM) »
    If it helps to evade melee attacks then people will jump. Why take that away?

    Since jumping has a legit purpose (as above) I only suggest it disable firing and not be 'spammable'. When used in combat it's cheap and looks ridiculous.

    QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 20 2011, 01:51 AM) »
    You can jump in real life, too. Even if you hold a gun.

    Someone wearing the amount of body armor as a NS marine and carrying a weapon is not going to jump very high or for very long. The height in NS is understandable as it has to clear obstacles but the frequency and accuracy whilst doing so is absurd.

    QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 20 2011, 01:51 AM) »
    There's no bunnyhopping in NS2

    Jumping repeatedly is hopping like a bunny, in my literal definition 'Bunnyhopping'.

    QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 20 2011, 01:51 AM) »
    People being able to jump repeatedly surely isn't a "silly Quake artifact".

    It is silly for humans to move around like rabbits and that is a residual mechanic of the pioneering 3D multiplayer FPS Quake.
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Snazz @ Jun 21 2011, 02:36 AM) »
    Jumping repeatedly is hopping like a bunny, in my literal definition 'Bunnyhopping'.


    "Bunny hopping, or bunny jumping, is a term used in video games to describe the basic movement technique in which a player jumps repeatedly, instead of running, in order to move faster."

    What you're describing is not bunnyhopping.
  • CrazyFarmerCrazyFarmer Join Date: 2010-01-25 Member: 70306Members Posts: 23
    I think they should just retake the jumping mechanics of NS1/CS where jumping slowed you down and repeated jumps would get you to a crawl, this would still allow dodging bites while not impairing movement too much

    You may argue that this game is not quake but it still is a fast paced shooter and realism is a poor argument
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Snazz @ Jun 21 2011, 07:36 AM) »
    Jumping repeatedly is hopping like a bunny, in my literal definition 'Bunnyhopping'.

    Call it pogo jumping or something. Bunnyhop is a completely different gaming term and should remain that for the clarity of future discussion. People have more than enough misconceptions about the whole thing already.

  • SnazzSnazz Join Date: 2007-09-30 Member: 62482Members Posts: 66
    edited June 2011
    Forgive me for using the term 'bunnyhopping' literally, rather then figuratively.

    Bunnies don't hop repeatedly to move because it's faster then running, they do it because of their anatomy.

    Damn figurative-term-spreading gamers, they could of just said something like 'fastjumping' instead.
  • revbassrevbass Join Date: 2011-06-09 Member: 103386Members Posts: 21
    We should remove the walk ability of aliens too, makes them too hard to hit.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,990 Advanced user
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (CrazyFarmer @ Jun 21 2011, 01:07 AM) »
    I think they should just retake the jumping mechanics of NS1/CS where jumping slowed you down and repeated jumps would get you to a crawl, this would still allow dodging bites while not impairing movement too much

    You may argue that this game is not quake but it still is a fast paced shooter and realism is a poor argument

    That would make marines' movement feel rather painfully artificial. How about simply capping movement speed while jumping, to say, 70% of max speed, so the marines can choose to sacrifices speed for height useful for avoiding Skulks?
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 8,207 mod
    edited June 2011
    It worked rather well in NS1 where you pretty much only got that one jump in the start of the fight if you wanted to live. You could tell a marine had some skill if he got good distance out of it.
    QUOTE (Snazz @ Jun 21 2011, 10:16 AM) »
    Forgive me for using the term 'bunnyhopping' literally, rather then figuratively.

    Bunnies don't hop repeatedly to move because it's faster then running, they do it because of their anatomy.

    Damn figurative-term-spreading gamers, they could of just said something like 'fastjumping' instead.

    I think the technical term was strafejumping, but people seeing it in action without knowing what it is called it bunnyhopping with much the same motivation as your use of the word.
  • revbassrevbass Join Date: 2011-06-09 Member: 103386Members Posts: 21
    The marine jump ability is a FUNDAMENTAL game mechanic and an actual defense mechanism when being attacked.

    Don't remove it. Maybe nerf it, a suggested by some people in this thread, at most.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (Align @ Jun 21 2011, 09:21 AM) »
    I think the technical term was strafejumping, but people seeing it in action without knowing what it is called it bunnyhopping with much the same motivation as your use of the word.

    Just for clarification:

    Bunnyhop looks something like this:

    [Edit!] The thingy might be speed up, given the quality of it, it's really difficult to estimate the actual speed[/edit]



    Strafejumping looks something like this:



    I'm not completely sure about the exact definitions if there even are any. For this discussion the most essential thing is to recognize that neither of these exist in NS2, at least not to the extend where you could use the terms to the full.

    In NS1 I prefer just to use the name dodge jump for marine jump trickery because I'm not actually sure what the exact correct name is. NS2 jumping at the moment isn't quite like that either though.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Deagle2Deagle2 Join Date: 2010-11-30 Member: 75360Members Posts: 168
    Didn't read all the posts, but here is my opinion :
    The marine aren't harder to hit because of jumping around currently, it's because of lag wich makes it so that you can't see where they went, that's what I think.
    Although if you still want to nerf the jump, the solution I find the best would be to have some sort of stamina and only allow 3 jumps in a row, like in CoD.
  • legolego Join Date: 2003-06-30 Member: 17819Members, Constellation Posts: 110
    edited June 2011
    Posts like these really scare me hopefully Charlie does not listen to it.

    Marines NEED mobility in order for this game to be fair and balanced. Without it they are basically sitting ducks just waiting to be eaten. Marines have already been nerfed in regards to backing up. The main gun they use for the majority of the game takes a ton of bullets to kill an enemy. Skulks on the other hand get a great bite weapon which if used with ambush is a deadly combination. If you die after ambushing a marine it means you probably messed up somewhere. If you were running down big hallways pretending you own the place then you should die. Skulks should be parasite -> cover to rack up the kills.

    The answer to everything isn't nerf it.

    The answer is wait until the game is in a more playable state until we start passing judgement on balance issues.

    Yea it might suck that a marine is jumping around you. But think about it for a moment he doesn't have a bite gun that kills you in a very short period of time.
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members Posts: 423
    edited June 2011
    Eventually the devs will have to make the decision ....Either balance the game around the fact that marines can repeatedly jump or that they can't (or are restricted somehow).

    Bunny hopping means different things in different games. NS2's version is similar to what started in the battlefield series. There is no movement acceleration, but it allows you to avoid damage (works better the closer you are), and with certain weapons, it allows for better shots (works better the closer you are)...obviously since aliens rely heavily on melee this is going to shift the favor towards marine. Believe me, better performance isn't going to magically "fix it" to the point that bunny hopping is no longer used. DICE eventually had to implement restrictions to dissuade bunny hopping (a stamina bar and no firing while jumping). Right now in NS2 bunny hopping gives you a huge boost in close combat over not bunny hopping...especially with the shotgun since it allows for better placed single shots. I don't see this changing much with better performance tbh, it didn't in other games. I bunny hop like a madman in NS2 and use it very effectively...but I'd rather not have it. Its not a skill I find particularly endearing and makes fights with aliens (skulks especially) feel silly and lame.
    ...down by the river.
  • Taxen0Taxen0 Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73357Members Posts: 286
    QUOTE (lego @ Jun 21 2011, 01:56 PM) »
    The main gun they use for the majority of the game takes a ton of bullets to kill an enemy.

    you mean the shotgun? because that's what's used for the majority, by the majority.

    Personally I don't think anything have to be done to the jumping, at least not until we have perfect lag-free servers.
    if its still hard to hit jumping marines (it's not that hard as things are now even) then I would like to see a CS-style implementation where you lose some horizontal speed by jumping, but you can jump as much as you want.
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  • revbassrevbass Join Date: 2011-06-09 Member: 103386Members Posts: 21
    QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 21 2011, 10:55 AM) »
    Just for clarification:

    Bunnyhop looks something like this:



    Strafejumping looks something like this:



    I'm not completely sure about the exact definitions if there even are any. For this discussion the most essential thing is to recognize that neither of these exist in NS2, at least not to the extend where you could use the terms to the full.

    In NS1 I prefer just to use the name dodge jump for marine jump trickery because I'm not actually sure what the exact correct name is. NS2 jumping at the moment isn't quite like that either though.

    Wow, look how slow Skulks move now, compared to NS1.
  • Taxen0Taxen0 Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73357Members Posts: 286
    QUOTE (revbass @ Jun 21 2011, 03:19 PM) »
    Wow, look how slow Skulks move now, compared to NS1.


    yea, and personally. if the devs want them to be that fast (or at least faster) I would rather see them changing the base speed value, rather than implement a bug (bhop/strafejump).
    there are better and more enjoyable ways to get skill based movement, instead of doing the same key-combo over and over...
    QUOTE (cow)
    moo! moo I say!
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    edited June 2011
    QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 21 2011, 03:16 PM) »
    Eventually the devs will have to make the decision ....Either balance the game around the fact that marines can repeatedly jump or that they can't (or are restricted somehow).

    Bunny hopping means different things in different games. NS2's version is similar to what started in the battlefield series. There is no movement acceleration, but it allows you to avoid damage (works better the closer you are), and with certain weapons, it allows for better shots (works better the closer you are)...obviously since aliens rely heavily on melee this is going to shift the favor towards marine. Believe me, better performance isn't going to magically "fix it" to the point that bunny hopping is no longer used. DICE eventually had to implement restrictions to dissuade bunny hopping (a stamina bar and no firing while jumping). Right now in NS2 bunny hopping gives you a huge boost in close combat over not bunny hopping...especially with the shotgun since it allows for better placed single shots. I don't see this changing much with better performance tbh, it didn't in other games. I bunny hop like a madman in NS2 and use it very effectively...but I'd rather not have it. Its not a skill I find particularly endearing and makes fights with aliens (skulks especially) feel silly and lame.

    Please go to NS1 and learn bunnyhob, preferably with a tutor.

    It is very annoying to see someone post example video two posts above and see guy under him ignore everything. It gives very bad image of BH to those who are unfamiliar because they have no idea you are talking rubbish and the SHlT explodes like the post above.

    Immersion and "complexness" are pathetic excuses setting limit to your imagination feeding sense of inferiority only fact being people are lazy.

    Can we get sticky bunny thread with facts less delusions?
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