<!--quoteo(post=1854139:date=Jun 18 2011, 07:59 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jun 18 2011, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can think of at least one scenario: Shooting or lobbing grenades over obstacles. It is useful for aliens too, who can repeatedly jump up from behind creates to perform pot shots.
My suggestion is to simply reduce Marines' movement speed after landing, similar to the effect in Counter Strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> qft
@agiel, I agree, we should be able to fire while running, but I doubt uwe will change that, and in a game like ns2 (where teams are asymmetric), i am ok with it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
One moment here, digging trough my images...
[edit will occur once I find it!]
<div align='center'>Alright that was easier to find then I expected... Introducing Pogo Stick Marine (once more) <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/artwork/pogomarine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>
<!--quoteo(post=1854194:date=Jun 18 2011, 12:58 PM:name=jamin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jamin @ Jun 18 2011, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Circle strafing is 100x more effective.. want that removed too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping while circle strafing seems to work even better.
I don't want to impair the marines movement. I am just as much against that as anyone else. That's why I asked for other ideas, I knew that wasn't the right way to go.
I think stopping shooting while jumping or reducing the movement speed after landing would bring an end to this silliness. (Most other FPS games have these types of things to prevent this very thing)
If this stays in the game then any time skulks attack the marines they will all start jumping around like madmen. It looks completely daft and isn't a fun gameplay mechanic. I don't really know how anyone can argue for keeping in this pogo stick style gameplay (nice pic Kouji_San :D). There's nothing positive about it at all.
I see many people arguing against impaired movement, but have yet to hear one argument as to how not being able to fire while jumping or sprinting would impair movement.
One issue that <i>has</i> brought up is that Marines won't be able to jump-shoot over obstacles, but that seems entirely reasonable to me. Generally speaking, if you want to shoot over something, you find something to crouch behind and peek out, not find something that's head-tall and jump until you can see your target.
The latter just looks silly, sounds silly, and doesn't accomplish a whole lot.
A basic part of jumping as movement in most games has to do with getting over obstacles... jumping onto a box, over a railing, over a hole, or over a crouched teammate (primarily to simulate elbowing past them, which is hard to code, not to simulate playing leapfrog, which is what it usually looks like). Firing while jumping is also frequently used to get good firing angles with things like grenades over cover or into vents (primarily simulating things like holding the weapon above your head and firing over your cover or into a vent you can't see into). This kind of movement is adjusted in some games to either require mantling/climbing over objects, or a weird stop-stutter on landing, both of which are jarring to me as a player and frequently don't combine well with lag.
The main problem (which, as with many problems in games, comes down to some people saying "I think this is overpowered/lame/looks bad" and some people saying "I'm good enough at the game that it doesn't bother me" which doesn't address two of the three initial complaints) is marines bouncing around while in close combat. I don't find it particularly overpowered... I do think it looks ridiculously stupid, and there have been times when it feels like I can't land a hit to save my life, but that's usually a Bad Game Night.
Addressing the "bunny hop" issue ought to be simple... just put a delay in after a jump during which you can't jump again. It doesn't mess up my movement speed (and therefore my timing trying to get from A to B), it doesn't stop my gun from working (you *can* fire a gun one-handed while using the other hand to vault... not necessarily very accurately, but good enough to hit with an automatic weapon at two meters isn't hard, and that's a lot of the shooting in NS), but it DOES keep me from bouncing all over the place like a CrossFit ninja on speed. Any skulk nipping at my heels knows that when I land, I'm gonna be on the ground for a second before liftoff, and that'd solve most of the bouncy marine issue in my head. You keep your maneuverability for the things jump was intended for (obstacles, weird-angle shots, etc) without turning close combat into a game of dodgeball with skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1854253:date=Jun 18 2011, 05:19 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 18 2011, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see many people arguing against impaired movement, but have yet to hear one argument as to how not being able to fire while jumping or sprinting would impair movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1854270:date=Jun 19 2011, 03:00 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 19 2011, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because if I want to shoot I cannot jump, duh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that actually constitutes 'impairing movement' so be it. Marines aren't acrobatic ninjas, they wear armor and carry bulky weapons.
Jumping is meant for getting over obstacles, not making yourself a harder target while you simultaneously fire your weapon.
Being able to shoot over tall objects is not a valid reason for keeping that ridiculous game mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1854309:date=Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->double jumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As in jumping once then jumping again in mid air? If marines are going to have gravity-defying abilities the environment should actually be low gravity.
<!--quoteo(post=1854309:date=Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine movement aint good to begin with no point making it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends what exactly you consider 'better' or 'worse'. Marine movement itself can be improved (in a way that makes sense) but concurrently silly Quake artifacts like bunnyhopping should be eliminated.
<!--quoteo(post=1854270:date=Jun 18 2011, 12:00 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 18 2011, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because if I want to shoot I cannot jump, duh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a personal issue. If you want to noclip through the map with infinite ammo, you can't jump either. You can jump whenever you want, as often as you want, so your movement hasn't been limited or hampered in the slightest. Now, your <i>combat effectiveness</i> when combined with such jumpy movement has taken a hit (which is what this thread is all about), but you don't seem to care about that. All I've heard about is limited mobility, which this suggestion does not cause in any way. You're still free to move about any way you choose at exactly the same speed and mobility that we already have.
Have the devs made a statement about marine jumping? I can't imagine they have left it that way on purpose seeing how they already have tons to do..
Personally I feel like it breaks the atmosphere of the entire game with marines jumping around so much. I know many people are arguing that removing the bunny hopping will remove player skill for marine players but shouldn't skills for marines be focused on their shooting/aiming, not their jumping ability?
I know games don't need to be ultra realistic and this isn't trying to be. But this isn't the Unreal series. It's more tactical than arcady. I personally wouldn't mind seeing a severe decrease in accuracy or maybe you jump with your gun seeing how the problem with not only skulks not being able to bite but, marines getting no penalty from jumping and killing the skulks by dodging and shooting.
<!--quoteo(post=1854329:date=Jun 18 2011, 04:03 PM:name=SiniStarR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SiniStarR @ Jun 18 2011, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have the devs made a statement about marine jumping? I can't imagine they have left it that way on purpose seeing how they already have tons to do..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have, and they said they don't like marines bouncing around so much. Probably not a high priority for them right now
Jump spam only allows you to live a little longer.
The only problem I have with it is that Flame-Thrower wielding marines can easily kill skulks when they are jump spamming. You shouldn't be able to fire the Flame-Thrower when you are jumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1854312:date=Jun 18 2011, 08:08 PM:name=Snazz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snazz @ Jun 18 2011, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If that actually constitutes 'impairing movement' so be it. Marines aren't acrobatic ninjas, they wear armor and carry bulky weapons.
Jumping is meant for getting over obstacles, not making yourself a harder target while you simultaneously fire your weapon.
Being able to shoot over tall objects is not a valid reason for keeping that ridiculous game mechanic.
As in jumping once then jumping again in mid air? If marines are going to have gravity-defying abilities the environment should actually be low gravity.
Depends what exactly you consider 'better' or 'worse'. Marine movement itself can be improved (in a way that makes sense) but concurrently silly Quake artifacts like bunnyhopping should be eliminated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already well established that not everyone here cares about free movement, but some of us do. Still nice to see you finally admit that you are willing to impair movement.
Jumping is not "meant" for anything, it's just an ability we have. If it helps to evade melee attacks then people will jump. Why take that away? Realism? That's never a good argument in itself. Plus guess what: You can jump in real life, too. Even if you hold a gun. It may not even be the worst way to evade an imminent melee attack. And this game is supposed to be in the future where "space marines" surely aren't weaker than we are now.
There's no bunnyhopping in NS2, don't know what your last comment is about. People being able to jump repeatedly surely isn't a "silly Quake artifact".
<!--quoteo(post=1854315:date=Jun 18 2011, 08:22 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 18 2011, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a personal issue. If you want to noclip through the map with infinite ammo, you can't jump either. You can jump whenever you want, as often as you want, so your movement hasn't been limited or hampered in the slightest. Now, your <i>combat effectiveness</i> when combined with such jumpy movement has taken a hit (which is what this thread is all about), but you don't seem to care about that. All I've heard about is limited mobility, which this suggestion does not cause in any way. You're still free to move about any way you choose at exactly the same speed and mobility that we already have.
Duh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then follow me through this hypothetical. Assume the game is changed so that every time you land after a jump, you automatically die. You can still jump like before, it just results in your inevitable death. Since the jump key is still working my ability to jump remains unaffected, according to your reasoning. Is that correct?
<!--quoteo(post=1854506:date=Jun 19 2011, 06:18 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jun 19 2011, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current jump is hardly bhop, there's no reason to cripple it any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As has been stated numerous times in this thread, no one is talking about crippling jumping. We're arguing that hopping around while firing a rifle is silly. Yes it's "just a game", but we need something vaguely approaching realism for immersion to work. In the cartoony world of Quake 3 this sort of thing didn't look out of place. In Natural Selection is does.
You mean silly as in using long mid-long range weapon's in close quarter combat against extremely fast and highly maneuverable cat-like animals? To be honest it would break my immersion if people wouldn't jump out of the reach of such a charging beast.
It was said before, jump spam mostly happens because most of the people have very low fps during hectic close quarter fights, which makes it very hard to properly track anything. That's the case for both sides even and here is the root why jumping can be effective sometimes! While me beeing more or less NS noob, I usually have not much of a problem killing marines as skulk, no matter if they are jump spamming or not. Just don't spam bite ;) I'm sure over time, when the game maybe runs better and people will get better, jump spam will fade away.
<!--quoteo(post=1854497:date=Jun 19 2011, 10:51 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 19 2011, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then follow me through this hypothetical. Assume the game is changed so that every time you land after a jump, you automatically die. You can still jump like before, it just results in your inevitable death. Since the jump key is still working my ability to jump remains unaffected, according to your reasoning. Is that correct?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would be correct if dying didn't directly and certainly impair your movement. Being unable to fire only has the chance to result in impaired movement (from death) if you're in the middle of combat, and even then, the death isn't automatic; it's brought about by the decreased combat efficiency you're gaining in exchange for being harder to hit.
If you're out of bullets or something and trying to make it back to base/sentries/safety, jumping will function just as it does now; the same goes for moving through the map normally. Jumping will only be a less viable option during direct combat, which will address the issue this thread was created for and will make mid-firefighting targeting less ridiculous for Skulks.
It might turn out that without jumping to help them, Marines tend to die in an unbalanced fashion when facing Skulks. The solution would to be to then nerf Skulk speed, bite damage, or health, or buff their marine counterparts of speed, damage, or rate of fire for the LMG; this would result in a game that is at least as balanced as the current model if not more, one that doesn't rely on random spamming of jumps, and one that is much easier to balance and tweak in the future.
It should be left alone. The current iteration is reminiscent of the good old days of unreal tournament where movement, and maintaining precise aim during was one of those skills you could never fully master. Putting a cap on ability in any way does more harm than good, IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1854523:date=Jun 19 2011, 12:46 PM:name=Skware)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skware @ Jun 19 2011, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should be left alone. The current iteration is reminiscent of the good old days of unreal tournament where movement, and maintaining precise aim during was one of those skills you could never fully master. Putting a cap on ability in any way does more harm than good, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everything is a cap on ability; energy/adrenaline is a cap on ability, ammo is a cap on ability, not being able to sprint and shoot is a cap on ability, dying is a cap on ability, bullet spread is a cap on ability, evolution costs are a cap on ability; how well you can perform within those caps, within the limitations of the system, is skill.
It just seems jumping at least once during a firefight is the only reason marines win half the confrontations they are in, especially in the early games when all you have is your rifle. Making it unable to shoot while in midair will make marines less combat effective, which is already the case with the 1 skulk vs 1 marine with a rifle scenario. I'm okay with an energy meter and tying sprinting and jumping to it, but at least 1 or 2 jumps is the only reason marines have a fighting chance in the early game, since there is no back-pedaling, and side strafing isn't effective enough. Its hard to use teamwork when most (stable) games only have 4/5 people on a team, meaning in the initial push to reach outward and claim the nearby nodes, having any more then 2 people in any single place compromises base and alternate node security, as well as generally you on your own anyway, you usually don't have the opportunity to move in groups.
To be honest I'd second a stamina bar and cant really see why anyone would be against it unless they really like jumping about like a fairy.
Don't see how it inhabits movement as it will still allow marines to clear obstacles, evade attacks, jump to shoot into vents and whatever else while <i>only</i> reducing the amount of jump spam that goes on.
Obviously the amount of stamina a marine has could be tweaked until its at an acceptable level.
Stamina bars work for sprinting as you can still walk when you run out, but being stuck to the ground because you failed jumping over something on the first try is a very frustrating experience. A better solution, and the one I bet we'll end up with, is the one used in CS and NS1 where you slow down after landing, which means that after 2-3 jumps you'll just be jumping on the same spot.
I still like the idea of preventing marines from shooting while in the air better though. If you find yourself dying a lot as a marine, the first and best solution shouldn't be to start mashing space bar, it should be to stick together with your team mates and cover each others backs.
<!--quoteo(post=1854513:date=Jun 19 2011, 07:10 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 19 2011, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean silly as in using long mid-long range weapon's in close quarter combat against extremely fast and highly maneuverable cat-like animals? To be honest it would break my immersion if people wouldn't jump out of the reach of such a charging beast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're free to switch to your axe if you prefer. And again jumping away is fine. It's hopping around continuously while simultaneously firing a high powered rifle that's silly.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still like the idea of preventing marines from shooting while in the air better though. If you find yourself dying a lot as a marine, the first and best solution shouldn't be to start mashing space bar, it should be to stick together with your team mates and cover each others backs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be my choice too, but if it had to be a 'limiter' you could just make jump use the same stamina sprint does, kind of like they did in the old Day of Defeat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stamina bars work for sprinting as you can still walk when you run out, but being stuck to the ground because you failed jumping over something on the first try is a very frustrating experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't need to be that way, the stamina could be implemented in such a way that when the bar is exhausted you cant jump as high or anywhere near as far rather than preventing jumping entirely.
The key would be in the amount of stamina in a full bar which should be sufficient enough to let the marine traverse comfortably while being limited enough that it would prevent jump spamming.
<!--quoteo(post=1854497:date=Jun 19 2011, 04:51 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 19 2011, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's already well established that not everyone here cares about free movement, but some of us do. Still nice to see you finally admit that you are willing to impair movement.
Jumping is not "meant" for anything, it's just an ability we have. If it helps to evade melee attacks then people will jump. Why take that away? Realism? That's never a good argument in itself. Plus guess what: You can jump in real life, too. Even if you hold a gun. It may not even be the worst way to evade an imminent melee attack. And this game is supposed to be in the future where "space marines" surely aren't weaker than we are now.
There's no bunnyhopping in NS2, don't know what your last comment is about. People being able to jump repeatedly surely isn't a "silly Quake artifact".
Then follow me through this hypothetical. Assume the game is changed so that every time you land after a jump, you automatically die. You can still jump like before, it just results in your inevitable death. Since the jump key is still working my ability to jump remains unaffected, according to your reasoning. Is that correct?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone wants to turn every game into some horrible semi-realistic fps shooter, if you could jump and shoot in NS1, you should be able to do it in NS2, stop trying to put a realistic spin on an alien shooter.
<!--quoteo(post=1854523:date=Jun 19 2011, 06:46 PM:name=Skware)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skware @ Jun 19 2011, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should be left alone. The current iteration is reminiscent of the good old days of unreal tournament where movement, and maintaining precise aim during was one of those skills you could never fully master. Putting a cap on ability in any way does more harm than good, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this guy very much.
Don't touch the jump ability of marines, it is fine as it is.
Comments
My suggestion is to simply reduce Marines' movement speed after landing, similar to the effect in Counter Strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
qft
@agiel, I agree, we should be able to fire while running, but I doubt uwe will change that, and in a game like ns2 (where teams are asymmetric), i am ok with it.
[edit will occur once I find it!]
<div align='center'>Alright that was easier to find then I expected... Introducing Pogo Stick Marine (once more)
<img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/artwork/pogomarine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>
Jumping while circle strafing seems to work even better.
I don't want to impair the marines movement. I am just as much against that as anyone else. That's why I asked for other ideas, I knew that wasn't the right way to go.
I think stopping shooting while jumping or reducing the movement speed after landing would bring an end to this silliness. (Most other FPS games have these types of things to prevent this very thing)
If this stays in the game then any time skulks attack the marines they will all start jumping around like madmen. It looks completely daft and isn't a fun gameplay mechanic. I don't really know how anyone can argue for keeping in this pogo stick style gameplay (nice pic Kouji_San :D). There's nothing positive about it at all.
One issue that <i>has</i> brought up is that Marines won't be able to jump-shoot over obstacles, but that seems entirely reasonable to me. Generally speaking, if you want to shoot over something, you find something to crouch behind and peek out, not find something that's head-tall and jump until you can see your target.
The latter just looks silly, sounds silly, and doesn't accomplish a whole lot.
The main problem (which, as with many problems in games, comes down to some people saying "I think this is overpowered/lame/looks bad" and some people saying "I'm good enough at the game that it doesn't bother me" which doesn't address two of the three initial complaints) is marines bouncing around while in close combat. I don't find it particularly overpowered... I do think it looks ridiculously stupid, and there have been times when it feels like I can't land a hit to save my life, but that's usually a Bad Game Night.
Addressing the "bunny hop" issue ought to be simple... just put a delay in after a jump during which you can't jump again. It doesn't mess up my movement speed (and therefore my timing trying to get from A to B), it doesn't stop my gun from working (you *can* fire a gun one-handed while using the other hand to vault... not necessarily very accurately, but good enough to hit with an automatic weapon at two meters isn't hard, and that's a lot of the shooting in NS), but it DOES keep me from bouncing all over the place like a CrossFit ninja on speed. Any skulk nipping at my heels knows that when I land, I'm gonna be on the ground for a second before liftoff, and that'd solve most of the bouncy marine issue in my head. You keep your maneuverability for the things jump was intended for (obstacles, weird-angle shots, etc) without turning close combat into a game of dodgeball with skulks.
Because if I want to shoot I cannot jump, duh.
Marine movement aint good to begin with no point making it worse.
If that actually constitutes 'impairing movement' so be it. Marines aren't acrobatic ninjas, they wear armor and carry bulky weapons.
Jumping is meant for getting over obstacles, not making yourself a harder target while you simultaneously fire your weapon.
Being able to shoot over tall objects is not a valid reason for keeping that ridiculous game mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1854309:date=Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->double jumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As in jumping once then jumping again in mid air? If marines are going to have gravity-defying abilities the environment should actually be low gravity.
<!--quoteo(post=1854309:date=Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 19 2011, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine movement aint good to begin with no point making it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends what exactly you consider 'better' or 'worse'. Marine movement itself can be improved (in a way that makes sense) but concurrently silly Quake artifacts like bunnyhopping should be eliminated.
That's a personal issue. If you want to noclip through the map with infinite ammo, you can't jump either. You can jump whenever you want, as often as you want, so your movement hasn't been limited or hampered in the slightest. Now, your <i>combat effectiveness</i> when combined with such jumpy movement has taken a hit (which is what this thread is all about), but you don't seem to care about that. All I've heard about is limited mobility, which this suggestion does not cause in any way. You're still free to move about any way you choose at exactly the same speed and mobility that we already have.
Duh.
Personally I feel like it breaks the atmosphere of the entire game with marines jumping around so much. I know many people are arguing that removing the bunny hopping will remove player skill for marine players but shouldn't skills for marines be focused on their shooting/aiming, not their jumping ability?
I know games don't need to be ultra realistic and this isn't trying to be. But this isn't the Unreal series. It's more tactical than arcady. I personally wouldn't mind seeing a severe decrease in accuracy or maybe you jump with your gun seeing how the problem with not only skulks not being able to bite but, marines getting no penalty from jumping and killing the skulks by dodging and shooting.
My 2 cents.
They have, and they said they don't like marines bouncing around so much. Probably not a high priority for them right now
Doom
Marathon
Heretic
Hexen
Gears of War
Resident Evil
These games all work perfectly well without jumping.
The only problem I have with it is that Flame-Thrower wielding marines can easily kill skulks when they are jump spamming. You shouldn't be able to fire the Flame-Thrower when you are jumping.
Jumping is meant for getting over obstacles, not making yourself a harder target while you simultaneously fire your weapon.
Being able to shoot over tall objects is not a valid reason for keeping that ridiculous game mechanic.
As in jumping once then jumping again in mid air? If marines are going to have gravity-defying abilities the environment should actually be low gravity.
Depends what exactly you consider 'better' or 'worse'. Marine movement itself can be improved (in a way that makes sense) but concurrently silly Quake artifacts like bunnyhopping should be eliminated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already well established that not everyone here cares about free movement, but some of us do. Still nice to see you finally admit that you are willing to impair movement.
Jumping is not "meant" for anything, it's just an ability we have. If it helps to evade melee attacks then people will jump. Why take that away? Realism? That's never a good argument in itself. Plus guess what: You can jump in real life, too. Even if you hold a gun. It may not even be the worst way to evade an imminent melee attack. And this game is supposed to be in the future where "space marines" surely aren't weaker than we are now.
There's no bunnyhopping in NS2, don't know what your last comment is about. People being able to jump repeatedly surely isn't a "silly Quake artifact".
<!--quoteo(post=1854315:date=Jun 18 2011, 08:22 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 18 2011, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a personal issue. If you want to noclip through the map with infinite ammo, you can't jump either. You can jump whenever you want, as often as you want, so your movement hasn't been limited or hampered in the slightest. Now, your <i>combat effectiveness</i> when combined with such jumpy movement has taken a hit (which is what this thread is all about), but you don't seem to care about that. All I've heard about is limited mobility, which this suggestion does not cause in any way. You're still free to move about any way you choose at exactly the same speed and mobility that we already have.
Duh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then follow me through this hypothetical. Assume the game is changed so that every time you land after a jump, you automatically die. You can still jump like before, it just results in your inevitable death. Since the jump key is still working my ability to jump remains unaffected, according to your reasoning. Is that correct?
As has been stated numerous times in this thread, no one is talking about crippling jumping. We're arguing that hopping around while firing a rifle is silly. Yes it's "just a game", but we need something vaguely approaching realism for immersion to work. In the cartoony world of Quake 3 this sort of thing didn't look out of place. In Natural Selection is does.
I'm sure over time, when the game maybe runs better and people will get better, jump spam will fade away.
It would be correct if dying didn't directly and certainly impair your movement. Being unable to fire only has the chance to result in impaired movement (from death) if you're in the middle of combat, and even then, the death isn't automatic; it's brought about by the decreased combat efficiency you're gaining in exchange for being harder to hit.
If you're out of bullets or something and trying to make it back to base/sentries/safety, jumping will function just as it does now; the same goes for moving through the map normally. Jumping will only be a less viable option during direct combat, which will address the issue this thread was created for and will make mid-firefighting targeting less ridiculous for Skulks.
It might turn out that without jumping to help them, Marines tend to die in an unbalanced fashion when facing Skulks. The solution would to be to then nerf Skulk speed, bite damage, or health, or buff their marine counterparts of speed, damage, or rate of fire for the LMG; this would result in a game that is at least as balanced as the current model if not more, one that doesn't rely on random spamming of jumps, and one that is much easier to balance and tweak in the future.
Everything is a cap on ability; energy/adrenaline is a cap on ability, ammo is a cap on ability, not being able to sprint and shoot is a cap on ability, dying is a cap on ability, bullet spread is a cap on ability, evolution costs are a cap on ability; how well you can perform within those caps, within the limitations of the system, is skill.
Don't see how it inhabits movement as it will still allow marines to clear obstacles, evade attacks, jump to shoot into vents and whatever else while <i>only</i> reducing the amount of jump spam that goes on.
Obviously the amount of stamina a marine has could be tweaked until its at an acceptable level.
I still like the idea of preventing marines from shooting while in the air better though. If you find yourself dying a lot as a marine, the first and best solution shouldn't be to start mashing space bar, it should be to stick together with your team mates and cover each others backs.
You're free to switch to your axe if you prefer. And again jumping away is fine. It's hopping around continuously while simultaneously firing a high powered rifle that's silly.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still like the idea of preventing marines from shooting while in the air better though. If you find yourself dying a lot as a marine, the first and best solution shouldn't be to start mashing space bar, it should be to stick together with your team mates and cover each others backs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be my choice too, but if it had to be a 'limiter' you could just make jump use the same stamina sprint does, kind of like they did in the old Day of Defeat.
It doesn't need to be that way, the stamina could be implemented in such a way that when the bar is exhausted you cant jump as high or anywhere near as far rather than preventing jumping entirely.
The key would be in the amount of stamina in a full bar which should be sufficient enough to let the marine traverse comfortably while being limited enough that it would prevent jump spamming.
Jumping is not "meant" for anything, it's just an ability we have. If it helps to evade melee attacks then people will jump. Why take that away? Realism? That's never a good argument in itself. Plus guess what: You can jump in real life, too. Even if you hold a gun. It may not even be the worst way to evade an imminent melee attack. And this game is supposed to be in the future where "space marines" surely aren't weaker than we are now.
There's no bunnyhopping in NS2, don't know what your last comment is about. People being able to jump repeatedly surely isn't a "silly Quake artifact".
Then follow me through this hypothetical. Assume the game is changed so that every time you land after a jump, you automatically die. You can still jump like before, it just results in your inevitable death. Since the jump key is still working my ability to jump remains unaffected, according to your reasoning. Is that correct?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I agree with this guy very much.
Don't touch the jump ability of marines, it is fine as it is.