I highly doubt anyone wants to keep "jump spam", referring it as a skill (of any kind) is stupid aswell. Replacing it with a quality and diverse movement system should be adviced in my opinion. The problem is the movement progress is regressing instead of going for better :(
I have a feeling this pushback aint gonna end well.
i think marines spam jump so much because the back pedal speed is sooo ridiculously slow. it has always been a good tactic in shooters to back up and shoot at your target when it is charging you. you have a good chance of killing it still. but the movement in ns2 is so slow when you try to back up. and it doesn't help to turn and run because the aliens are faster anyway. so the marine is actually better off jumping around rather than trying to face the alien properly. i think uwe should fix the marine's movement speeds before applying strange restrictions to jumping mechanics. things like quicker reload times or time to equip a weapon might help too. i think the marine is just too bogged down and therefore the player has to resort to spamming jump. it's cheap but the best method to survive.
I can see that as being an issue, its important to treat the source of the problem, not just problems stemming from it. It really ends up as a fine edge of balance, either you backpedal too fast and enemies can't keep up forward (some games have backpedal the same speed as going forward) or you go too slowly and you may as well stand and fight no matter what the situation.
I don't think there is a problem with jumping in movement, but jumping in FPS's typically ends up looking very silly and unrealistic simply because there is really only one jump. Really, optimal movement would incorporate many types of jumps based on the situation, a high standing or short high running jump to reach high areas, a low fast lateral jump for covering gaps or getting over low obstacles, a one foot propelled vault over objects for medium sized objects, a high, slow mantling for especially tall objects, instead we just get one, which means that while the low lateral jump would be perfectly in character for combat as you jump away, low to the ground and at a longer distance, from your enemy backward, while the standing high jump looks idiotic in the extreme. Failing to add in all these different kinds of jump animations however, the atmosphere is just better off without it in combat.
I refer again to Aliens vs Predators classic because its probably the only other video game I can think of with such a similar problem, in that game they simply made it so that the aliens were absolute glass cannons. You didn't need to run because combat would be decided by your aim and awareness, if you saw them soon enough, you'd win if your aim was right, if not, you were dead. NS has a somewhat squishier system where combat isn't decided in the same split second fashion, with good reason, it would suck to be losing upgrades in a split second mistake. Currently I think knock back, so long as it doesn't make an invincible shield from the front due to refire time, is the best current alternative.
<!--quoteo(post=1858504:date=Jul 7 2011, 12:52 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 7 2011, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think people are overexaggerating what the loss of jump spam is going to do. You're not going to become stationary because you can't jump around constantly in combat, you'll replace the skill of jumping with the skill of timing melee attacks to send the skulks flying. TF2 doesn't have limits on rocket jumps because its a cartoony game, its atmosphere is conducive to silliness. Same with Unreal tournament. Natural Selection is not, natural selection is not TF2, its not cartoony, its not unreal tournament with over the top silliness. Its supposed to be a gritty and immersive experience more akin to Alien vs Predator classic than those others are, and as such, they have to respect at atmosphere than immerses players in the world they've created, and that is not helped by jump spam. Jump spam doesn't make a game classic or old school, it makes it silly looking. Complexity in game play is not the result of spamming one button over and over again, its about planning your route of approach, moving in pairs or more, checking your corners, behind, above. Alien vs Predator back in 2000 was an incredibly deep game when you realized how completely different your adversaries were. You learned to check behind you periodically, throw flares into vents, get an idea of where aliens or predators like to hide, and when you fought them, you learned to be <b>dead on target or dead on arrival.</b> It was phenomenally intense where a split second could get you killed and it <b>never relied on jumping up and down and looking silly.</b> Honestly, jump spam strikes me more as a safety net than good game play mechanic, something familiar that works in other games that you take with you, just like circle strafing, but when it gets taken away, the real challenge starts. You have to be much more careful about where you're going because you can't get ambushed and jump spam around to stand a serious chance, if anything, jump spam blunts the razors edge between killing and being killed that gives a game its intensity by making mistakes less punishing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess what games are not played today by professional gamers and also no longer have a player base?
Hint: The letters A v and P are in the title.
Bonus question!
Guess what games are still played professionally with silly things like strafe jump and rocket jump?
Hint: The letters T and Q are in the titles.
Also see: NS1 Professional scene lasted a very long time. WITH JUMP SPAM! I wonder how such a silly tactic could have been left in a game for that long, to this very day even. It must have ruined thousands if not hundreds of thousands of games, professionally and casually alike. What a shame.
<!--quoteo(post=1858514:date=Jul 6 2011, 08:38 PM:name=Arkilae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkilae @ Jul 6 2011, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess what games are not played today by professional gamers and also no longer have a player base?
Hint: The letters A v and P are in the title.
Bonus question!
Guess what games are still played professionally with silly things like strafe jump and rocket jump?
Hint: The letters T and Q are in the titles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Guess which games work with the atmosphere they have. Both. Your making a wild leap connecting "Jump spam" with "Professional Gamers want to play this," and from there, you're making a even larger leap from "Professional Gamers want to play this," and "this game will be financially successful and be entertaining to people."
Professional gaming as a final goal is silly in my opinion. Its fine to have a hobby, but I'm not going to stop playing checkers because there isn't an National Checkers League with televised checkers tournament. That doens't even include the fact there were professional game tournaments for AVP games of many different installments. <a href="http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/aliens-vs-predator-multiplayer-showdown" target="_blank">http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/alie...player-showdown</a> <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/2820608/aliens-vs-predator-2-approved-for-competition" target="_blank">http://www.gamespot.com/news/2820608/alien...for-competition</a> By your logic any game that didn't have professional gamers playing it on a regular basis would be undesirable, thus pointless to produce. I don't think there's a professional The Sims's league but they certain sell many copies and entertain many people. That's the whole point.
<!--quoteo(post=1858513:date=Jul 7 2011, 07:38 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 7 2011, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think there is a problem with jumping in movement, but jumping in FPS's typically ends up looking very silly and unrealistic simply because there is really only one jump. Really, optimal movement would incorporate many types of jumps based on the situation, a high standing or short high running jump to reach high areas, a low fast lateral jump for covering gaps or getting over low obstacles, a one foot propelled vault over objects for medium sized objects, a high, slow mantling for especially tall objects, instead we just get one, which means that while the low lateral jump would be perfectly in character for combat as you jump away, low to the ground and at a longer distance, from your enemy backward, while the standing high jump looks idiotic in the extreme. Failing to add in all these different kinds of jump animations however, the atmosphere is just better off without it in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1858516:date=Jul 7 2011, 01:44 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 7 2011, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess which games work with the atmosphere they have. Both. Professional gaming as a final goal is silly in my opinion. Its fine to have a hobby, but I'm not going to stop playing checkers because there isn't an National Checkers League with televised checkers tournament. That doens't even include the fact there were professional game tournaments for AVP. By your logic any game that didn't have professional gamers playing it on a regular basis would be undesirable, thus pointless to produce. I don't think there's a professional The Sims's league but they certain sell many copies and entertain many people. That's the whole point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Atmosphere as absolutely everything to do with a game.
But you do not yet understand how atmosphere plays its part in a game.
The professional gaming scene can be used as a rough measuring stick to the health of a game. A game for example that is poorly cobbled together such as all of the AvP games might have had a small hardcore pro scene for a while but as with all poorly cobbled together games died. Why? I don't know but I can tell you why it didn't catch on, it probably adhered to a strict atmosphere of gritty realism, confining itself to a limited scope game play wise, restricting players in ways that I can only imagine, in ways that would drive pro gamers away and once the pro gamers leave which are part of the hardcore group you can say, the game dies a slow casual death. Destroyed by its own atmosphere which was adhered to by both of the developers and the players because it was "the logical thing to do to honor the atmosphere and the game".
Then you have games like Quake, Tribes 2, Team Fortress, StarCraft, WarCraft, Counterstrike. I think the examples of T2, SC and CS would fall under the "Gritty realism" category of yours. Fortunately they all have game play and atmosphere to back it up, CS with strafe jumping, the horror, SC with its cheese like a 6 pool or a nydus worm in to your main; perhaps a cannon rush? And WarCraft with heroes everywhere that can decimate your army in a few clicks and then use a scroll to teleport to safety. Also we can't forget Tribes 2 and ski jumping, those developers were so attached to their idea of realism and grittiness for their game that they literally took a bug, requested by the pro gamers from the previous game and turned it in to a feature of the sequel. Now doesn't that destroy your ideas of atmosphere and logical game play choices? You see you're right when it comes down to this all being a hobby, it is, just like chess is a hobby, just like there are players who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars off of that hobby. Just like when players introduce forms of play (strafe jumping) using what is currently built in to the game and turn it in to a skill to be mastered. Bobby Fischer was one of those players, before him no one really played as aggressively as they did in Chess, after him you will see players open with his aggressive type plays all the time now.
You're attempting to remove the bishop from the game, and call it a step in the right direction for the game, when all it does is remove what choices players have, regardless of the atmosphere of a game, atmosphere should only play a role in terms of its single players and its aesthetics. An atmosphere which is dark and gritty is not something I want to be playing at any time unless its a single player game because dark and gritty does not mix well with bright and colorful orange aliens, glowing weeds, sparkling bulbs. blue marines and outdoor plants. The atmosphere of a game should be that of something nice, a pleasant view, soft colors, a beautiful painting (see: Diablo 3 style outrage). If I am going to see the same level fifty times in a week it better be nice to look at and not something dark, gritty, and realistic.
But you won't understand this, you might claim you will, you might claim you won't, but you won't truly understand it until you get that poison out of your mind and understand that every one else is here to stay and that you might as well make the best of it while you're here and not try to get what is part of this removed because it doesn't suit your views in regards to the life blood of a hobby you so enjoy.
EDIT:
Don't even get me started on balance issues and the meta game now that I have seen your other posts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact of the matter here is that we are dealing with an entirely new generation of gamers. Most of them were raised on either consoles or generic, watered down "realistic" ww2/vietnam simulation games. None of those games had depth in movement mechanics and it's all about how many points you need to get your next achievement or weapon upgrade. They get tired really fast and that's exactly what the developers want because they are ready to sell you the next installment when Christmas rolls around.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote <b>"easy to pick-up" and "hard to master".</b> Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.
This times 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
Don't worry weeschwee. Once the server performance, netcode and animation are smoother, Marines will have no problem hitting Kharaa at all.
Even these days, I can usually kill non-jumpers as Marine and as Kharaa. If I face a jump spammer, however, I usually end up losing the fight, as their movement become too erratic for me to predict.
the sims - 16 million copies (without expansions) half-life 1 - 9.3 million copies.
So I guess we should try and make ns2 more like the sims? it's clearly what gamers want.
that's just about as silly as connecting jump spam with game success. ever heard: "Correlation does not imply causation"?
edit: I might just as well write something constructive while I'm at it. limit the jump, so it can only be used occasionally to jump over a skulk or away from lerk spikes. then give the marines a sidestep (double tap right/left) that also can be used with a limit, to avoid leaps or get some minor distance. this combined with knockback should give the marine enough movement.
Another thing I'd like to add in regards to balance. Right now jumping over skulks and jumping on railings is probably the only way to get more shots in before dying. The problem is with leap as a base ability skulks can close the gap instantly, making it so that if you can't jump around (assuming the skulk isn't terrible and can aim) you have one shot MAYBE two to kill the skulk.
Honestly, if we're taking jumping around out then leap needs to be re-balanced as well. I think we'll find that in 180 skulks are going to have much more of an edge on marines and they're going to be toned down.
<!--quoteo(post=1858513:date=Jul 7 2011, 08:38 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 7 2011, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think there is a problem with jumping in movement, but jumping in FPS's typically ends up looking very silly and unrealistic simply because there is really only one jump. Really, optimal movement would incorporate many types of jumps based on the situation, a high standing or short high running jump to reach high areas, a low fast lateral jump for covering gaps or getting over low obstacles, a one foot propelled vault over objects for medium sized objects, a high, slow mantling for especially tall objects, instead we just get one, which means that while the low lateral jump would be perfectly in character for combat as you jump away, low to the ground and at a longer distance, from your enemy backward, while the standing high jump looks idiotic in the extreme. Failing to add in all these different kinds of jump animations however, the atmosphere is just better off without it in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's no point in making jumping look absolutely realistic, if we went this route we could have record tons of running animations depending on the currect weight on the player, the ground of which he is running to a facial conditions. Unless you are telling you are not put off by the fact a marine can run identially 2 hours regardless of weight or any other condition but are great disturbed that he always jumps the same way.
What you are doing is trying to put singleplayer traits to a multiplayer, teamwork based game with intelligent people playing. In a singleplayer it may be important to keep the concentration with high detailed effects and realistic actions and you can seriously restrict movement because you are facing a programmed route to the very goal. In a multiplayer you will play the game over and over again and to keep the player interested you cant simply relie on immersion as it wears out very quickly. In a multiplayer it is a mere introducer to the game, gameplay is what keeps the game going. The reason games above were not so successful and long living is simply 1 button and tracking is not enough to keep people interested. In quake rewarding movement system and multiple weapons with an actual balance and in NS1 it was complex movement system rewarding time/use extremely effectively.
The only thing that a jump for example should be is a jump that everyone recognizes as a jump no other restrictions.
<!--quoteo(post=1858522:date=Jul 7 2011, 09:18 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 7 2011, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing I'd like to add in regards to balance. Right now jumping over skulks and jumping on railings is probably the only way to get more shots in before dying. The problem is with leap as a base ability skulks can close the gap instantly, making it so that if you can't jump around (assuming the skulk isn't terrible and can aim) you have one shot MAYBE two to kill the skulk.
Honestly, if we're taking jumping around out then leap needs to be re-balanced as well. I think we'll find that in 180 skulks are going to have much more of an edge on marines and they're going to be toned down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to mention fades, how do you escape yet alone kill one.
Yeh, i agree that if marine jump spam does get a fix, something would need to happen to leap, maybe halve its effectiveness until hive 2?
P.S. how can people call marine jump spam skill based? seriously? NS1 alien hunnyhop WAS skill because it required timing (i still never liked the idea or look of it though). But honestly, choosing which way to jump, i really don't see how that could be called a skill based ability.
So I guess we should try and make ns2 more like the sims? it's clearly what gamers want.
that's just about as silly as connecting jump spam with game success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sims is not a shooter, not multiplayer, and has no relevence to this game - your point is invalid. You could have said Angry Birds or Final Fantasy and it would be just as pointless o.O
<!--quoteo(post=1858489:date=Jul 6 2011, 08:49 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 6 2011, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Apparently it's getting heavily nerfed in 180 to the point of where it's not beneficial anymore (the jumping part, not the strafing around leaping skulks). Dunno, guess we'll see how much of a difference it makes.
Also what's up Underwhelmed/Exon, have you bought NS2 yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Got my black marine edition Why aren't you on my Friends List?
Hum... azimaith mentioning that we should have several different sorts of jumps gives me an idea. Basically:
How long you hold the jump key affects the angle of your jump.
But it'd need some other things to not be abusable, like a briefly slowed movement after landing so marines won't use it just to traverse the map more quickly, and maybe disabling jump for a second afterwards so it can't be used again. Or at least making the slowdown affect the jump velocity.
With that, you get a believable dodging sort of movement that feels like you're throwing yourself aside when you feel the teeth on your butt, without the marine disappearing from the skulks field of view, since the dodge-jump would be low to the ground. While still keeping the ability to jump over obstacles, of course.
<!--quoteo(post=1858560:date=Jul 7 2011, 12:56 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 7 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sims is not a shooter, not multiplayer, and has no relevence to this game - your point is invalid. You could have said Angry Birds or Final Fantasy and it would be just as pointless o.O<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that was the whole point, showing how pointless the connection was.. well done! *clap*
<!--quoteo(post=1858574:date=Jul 7 2011, 10:33 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 7 2011, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hum... azimaith mentioning that we should have several different sorts of jumps gives me an idea. Basically:
How long you hold the jump key affects the angle of your jump.
With that, you get a believable dodging sort of movement that feels like you're throwing yourself aside when you feel the teeth on your butt, without the marine disappearing from the skulks field of view, since the dodge-jump would be low to the ground. While still keeping the ability to jump over obstacles, of course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've toyed with this idea. I think we should avoid holding/charging mechanics when possible, for the sake of simplicity and consistency. Why not a simple directional modifier instead?
I think the main problem with the jump spam from a game balance point of view is that it doesn't increase the depth of the game at all. It is something that is always better for the marine to do and there is no drawback. The marine doesn't need to think "should I jump here or not" or make those kind of decisions. It's just a dominate move that works every time.
Skulks also have no counter to jump spam. They may successful predict that the marine will jump but there isn't anything they can do about it. It doesn't create a back and forth dynamic that is fun.
It isn't skill based at all, and can't be compared to bunny hoping or any other skill based jumping from FPS games.
If other things need to be changed as a result of removing the jumping then so be it. That's not a good reason to keep a bad gameplay mechanic in.
<!--quoteo(post=1858606:date=Jul 7 2011, 02:02 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 7 2011, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the main problem with the jump spam from a game balance point of view is that it doesn't increase the depth of the game at all. It is something that is always better for the marine to do and there is no drawback. The marine doesn't need to think "should I jump here or not" or make those kind of decisions. It's just a dominate move that works every time.
Skulks also have no counter to jump spam. They may successful predict that the marine will jump but there isn't anything they can do about it. It doesn't create a back and forth dynamic that is fun.
It isn't skill based at all, and can't be compared to bunny hoping or any other skill based jumping from FPS games.
If other things need to be changed as a result of removing the jumping then so be it. That's not a good reason to keep a bad gameplay mechanic in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone who is arguing for skill-based movement is in support of jump spam or thinks that the two are any way related. What we are saying is that there is a lack of movement mechanics which forces you to use the only dodging technique currently present in the game. I'm happy to see the endless stationary jumping end as long as we are provided another (hopefully skill-based) method for evading attacks at melee range.
<!--quoteo(post=1858513:date=Jul 7 2011, 02:38 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 7 2011, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think there is a problem with jumping in movement, but jumping in FPS's typically ends up looking very silly and unrealistic simply because there is really only one jump. Really, optimal movement would incorporate many types of jumps based on the situation, a high standing or short high running jump to reach high areas, a low fast lateral jump for covering gaps or getting over low obstacles, a one foot propelled vault over objects for medium sized objects, a high, slow mantling for especially tall objects, instead we just get one, which means that while the low lateral jump would be perfectly in character for combat as you jump away, low to the ground and at a longer distance, from your enemy backward, while the standing high jump looks idiotic in the extreme. Failing to add in all these different kinds of jump animations however, the atmosphere is just better off without it in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1858593:date=Jul 8 2011, 12:52 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 8 2011, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've toyed with this idea. I think we should avoid holding/charging mechanics when possible, for the sake of simplicity and consistency. Why not a simple directional modifier instead?
I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.
So those things that azimaith and Kuban suggested, or things like it, are a good first pass. Other things I would suggest: - There could be modifier keys for the jump to pull off some of the things you suggest, though you'd probably just use Ctrl+Shift which are already used, to keep the complexity down. - Shift-sprint could also act as more of an accelerate button (up to a maximum speed - the current sprint) - the acceleration would be more gentle, so you could better control your speed. - Another method you could control your speed is, for example, while holding the shift button to sprint, the further down you (your view) are looking (down to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the faster you sprint (this simulates a sprinter's running posture while accelerating); while the further up you are looking (up to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the slower you sprint (this simulates our natural tendency to lean back to decelerate while running). Time spent recovering from sprinting (bringing your weapon back up) should be proportional (rather than constant) to the time required to decelerate to walking speed, to allow us to use short bursts of controlled acceleration while remaining viable in combat.
Movement <b>should</b> be a part of combat. We need more control over our movement, as fine as we can get it, while still being robust and intuitive.
I'm genuinely curious, do you play marines at all?
I'm also quite confused by your statement. It sounds like you're saying that we should "only give aliens skill based movement while marines have limited movement". So since they do have limited movement now, we should give aliens skill-based movement at this point in time; but if we were to improve marine movement... then we shouldn't give aliens skill-based movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1858619:date=Jul 7 2011, 06:33 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 7 2011, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm genuinely curious, do you play marines at all?
I'm also quite confused by your statement. Are you saying you want to limit marine movement further, while at the same time increasing kharaa mobility?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I play marines whenever I can but aliens depend more on skill based movement which is why they MUST have better mobility no matter what.
I'm saying marine movement is fine expect for marine sprint currently. Since aliens lack any skill based movement, and in the next patch aliens leap is moved to second hive upgrade, this only further nerfs aliens in the early games while marines keep their sprint by default start of any match. And the only reason aliens having such hard time with marines "jumping" is because of how much alien movement is crippled.
I'm fully aware what charlie is trying to do damage/slow thing, but he is avoiding adding skill based movement to aliens. In ns1, aliens could easily close the gap needed even without leap but now they can't while leap even is being taken away early.
Just give jumping for marines the same effect as sprinting. You hold you weapon in front of you so you block alot of your sight and you are unable to shoot for a shoort amount of time
<!--quoteo(post=1858621:date=Jul 7 2011, 01:43 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jul 7 2011, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in the next patch aliens leap is moved to second hive upgrade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did you see that? Aliens are going to get absolutely raped in every game since people forgot how to ambush in NS2.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1858752:date=Jul 8 2011, 03:08 AM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jul 8 2011, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just give jumping for marines the same effect as sprinting. You hold you weapon in front of you so you block alot of your sight and you are unable to shoot for a shoort amount of time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That idea has already been suggested. The problem with that is it makes Marine movement feel too restrictive (although it is somewhat realistic).
<!--quoteo(post=1858754:date=Jul 8 2011, 03:11 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 8 2011, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did you see that? Aliens are going to get absolutely raped in every game since people forgot how to ambush in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Charlie mentioned it a while ago. Don't worry though, it is probably scrapped in favor of Rifle butt knock back.
I don't think that aliens forgot how to ambush. The problem is ambushing has become less effective, as Marines move very fast with sprint (sprint speed: 6, skulk speed: 6.25). Not to mention Marines who use their minimaps can see Skulks from up to 5 seconds away. So I really hope they don't disable Leap at the start of the game.
I have a feeling ambushes are going to be a lot more viable when power nodes aren't scouting you out, especially if the supposed slow on bite goes into effect, then the first attack will be the most important one.
Comments
I have a feeling this pushback aint gonna end well.
Perhaps without the jump spam, more people will develop the 'Khaara twitch' !
I don't think there is a problem with jumping in movement, but jumping in FPS's typically ends up looking very silly and unrealistic simply because there is really only one jump. Really, optimal movement would incorporate many types of jumps based on the situation, a high standing or short high running jump to reach high areas, a low fast lateral jump for covering gaps or getting over low obstacles, a one foot propelled vault over objects for medium sized objects, a high, slow mantling for especially tall objects, instead we just get one, which means that while the low lateral jump would be perfectly in character for combat as you jump away, low to the ground and at a longer distance, from your enemy backward, while the standing high jump looks idiotic in the extreme. Failing to add in all these different kinds of jump animations however, the atmosphere is just better off without it in combat.
I refer again to Aliens vs Predators classic because its probably the only other video game I can think of with such a similar problem, in that game they simply made it so that the aliens were absolute glass cannons. You didn't need to run because combat would be decided by your aim and awareness, if you saw them soon enough, you'd win if your aim was right, if not, you were dead. NS has a somewhat squishier system where combat isn't decided in the same split second fashion, with good reason, it would suck to be losing upgrades in a split second mistake. Currently I think knock back, so long as it doesn't make an invincible shield from the front due to refire time, is the best current alternative.
Honestly, jump spam strikes me more as a safety net than good game play mechanic, something familiar that works in other games that you take with you, just like circle strafing, but when it gets taken away, the real challenge starts. You have to be much more careful about where you're going because you can't get ambushed and jump spam around to stand a serious chance, if anything, jump spam blunts the razors edge between killing and being killed that gives a game its intensity by making mistakes less punishing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess what games are not played today by professional gamers and also no longer have a player base?
Hint: The letters A v and P are in the title.
Bonus question!
Guess what games are still played professionally with silly things like strafe jump and rocket jump?
Hint: The letters T and Q are in the titles.
Also see: NS1 Professional scene lasted a very long time. WITH JUMP SPAM! I wonder how such a silly tactic could have been left in a game for that long, to this very day even. It must have ruined thousands if not hundreds of thousands of games, professionally and casually alike. What a shame.
Hint: The letters A v and P are in the title.
Bonus question!
Guess what games are still played professionally with silly things like strafe jump and rocket jump?
Hint: The letters T and Q are in the titles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess which games work with the atmosphere they have.
Both.
Your making a wild leap connecting "Jump spam" with "Professional Gamers want to play this," and from there, you're making a even larger leap from "Professional Gamers want to play this," and "this game will be financially successful and be entertaining to people."
Professional gaming as a final goal is silly in my opinion. Its fine to have a hobby, but I'm not going to stop playing checkers because there isn't an National Checkers League with televised checkers tournament. That doens't even include the fact there were professional game tournaments for AVP games of many different installments.
<a href="http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/aliens-vs-predator-multiplayer-showdown" target="_blank">http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/alie...player-showdown</a>
<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/2820608/aliens-vs-predator-2-approved-for-competition" target="_blank">http://www.gamespot.com/news/2820608/alien...for-competition</a>
By your logic any game that didn't have professional gamers playing it on a regular basis would be undesirable, thus pointless to produce. I don't think there's a professional The Sims's league but they certain sell many copies and entertain many people. That's the whole point.
Excellent point, that never occurred to me.
Both.
Professional gaming as a final goal is silly in my opinion. Its fine to have a hobby, but I'm not going to stop playing checkers because there isn't an National Checkers League with televised checkers tournament. That doens't even include the fact there were professional game tournaments for AVP.
By your logic any game that didn't have professional gamers playing it on a regular basis would be undesirable, thus pointless to produce. I don't think there's a professional The Sims's league but they certain sell many copies and entertain many people. That's the whole point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Atmosphere as absolutely everything to do with a game.
But you do not yet understand how atmosphere plays its part in a game.
The professional gaming scene can be used as a rough measuring stick to the health of a game. A game for example that is poorly cobbled together such as all of the AvP games might have had a small hardcore pro scene for a while but as with all poorly cobbled together games died. Why? I don't know but I can tell you why it didn't catch on, it probably adhered to a strict atmosphere of gritty realism, confining itself to a limited scope game play wise, restricting players in ways that I can only imagine, in ways that would drive pro gamers away and once the pro gamers leave which are part of the hardcore group you can say, the game dies a slow casual death. Destroyed by its own atmosphere which was adhered to by both of the developers and the players because it was "the logical thing to do to honor the atmosphere and the game".
Then you have games like Quake, Tribes 2, Team Fortress, StarCraft, WarCraft, Counterstrike. I think the examples of T2, SC and CS would fall under the "Gritty realism" category of yours. Fortunately they all have game play and atmosphere to back it up, CS with strafe jumping, the horror, SC with its cheese like a 6 pool or a nydus worm in to your main; perhaps a cannon rush? And WarCraft with heroes everywhere that can decimate your army in a few clicks and then use a scroll to teleport to safety. Also we can't forget Tribes 2 and ski jumping, those developers were so attached to their idea of realism and grittiness for their game that they literally took a bug, requested by the pro gamers from the previous game and turned it in to a feature of the sequel. Now doesn't that destroy your ideas of atmosphere and logical game play choices? You see you're right when it comes down to this all being a hobby, it is, just like chess is a hobby, just like there are players who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars off of that hobby. Just like when players introduce forms of play (strafe jumping) using what is currently built in to the game and turn it in to a skill to be mastered. Bobby Fischer was one of those players, before him no one really played as aggressively as they did in Chess, after him you will see players open with his aggressive type plays all the time now.
You're attempting to remove the bishop from the game, and call it a step in the right direction for the game, when all it does is remove what choices players have, regardless of the atmosphere of a game, atmosphere should only play a role in terms of its single players and its aesthetics. An atmosphere which is dark and gritty is not something I want to be playing at any time unless its a single player game because dark and gritty does not mix well with bright and colorful orange aliens, glowing weeds, sparkling bulbs. blue marines and outdoor plants. The atmosphere of a game should be that of something nice, a pleasant view, soft colors, a beautiful painting (see: Diablo 3 style outrage). If I am going to see the same level fifty times in a week it better be nice to look at and not something dark, gritty, and realistic.
But you won't understand this, you might claim you will, you might claim you won't, but you won't truly understand it until you get that poison out of your mind and understand that every one else is here to stay and that you might as well make the best of it while you're here and not try to get what is part of this removed because it doesn't suit your views in regards to the life blood of a hobby you so enjoy.
EDIT:
Don't even get me started on balance issues and the meta game now that I have seen your other posts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact of the matter here is that we are dealing with an entirely new generation of gamers. Most of them were raised on either consoles or generic, watered down "realistic" ww2/vietnam simulation games. None of those games had depth in movement mechanics and it's all about how many points you need to get your next achievement or weapon upgrade. They get tired really fast and that's exactly what the developers want because they are ready to sell you the next installment when Christmas rolls around.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote <b>"easy to pick-up" and "hard to master".</b> Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.
This times 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This quote and bolded times 1000.
Even these days, I can usually kill non-jumpers as Marine and as Kharaa. If I face a jump spammer, however, I usually end up losing the fight, as their movement become too erratic for me to predict.
half-life 1 - 9.3 million copies.
So I guess we should try and make ns2 more like the sims? it's clearly what gamers want.
that's just about as silly as connecting jump spam with game success.
ever heard: "Correlation does not imply causation"?
edit: I might just as well write something constructive while I'm at it.
limit the jump, so it can only be used occasionally to jump over a skulk or away from lerk spikes.
then give the marines a sidestep (double tap right/left) that also can be used with a limit, to avoid leaps or get some minor distance.
this combined with knockback should give the marine enough movement.
Honestly, if we're taking jumping around out then leap needs to be re-balanced as well. I think we'll find that in 180 skulks are going to have much more of an edge on marines and they're going to be toned down.
There's no point in making jumping look absolutely realistic, if we went this route we could have record tons of running animations depending on the currect weight on the player, the ground of which he is running to a facial conditions. Unless you are telling you are not put off by the fact a marine can run identially 2 hours regardless of weight or any other condition but are great disturbed that he always jumps the same way.
What you are doing is trying to put singleplayer traits to a multiplayer, teamwork based game with intelligent people playing. In a singleplayer it may be important to keep the concentration with high detailed effects and realistic actions and you can seriously restrict movement because you are facing a programmed route to the very goal. In a multiplayer you will play the game over and over again and to keep the player interested you cant simply relie on immersion as it wears out very quickly. In a multiplayer it is a mere introducer to the game, gameplay is what keeps the game going. The reason games above were not so successful and long living is simply 1 button and tracking is not enough to keep people interested. In quake rewarding movement system and multiple weapons with an actual balance and in NS1 it was complex movement system rewarding time/use extremely effectively.
The only thing that a jump for example should be is a jump that everyone recognizes as a jump no other restrictions.
<!--quoteo(post=1858522:date=Jul 7 2011, 09:18 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 7 2011, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing I'd like to add in regards to balance. Right now jumping over skulks and jumping on railings is probably the only way to get more shots in before dying. The problem is with leap as a base ability skulks can close the gap instantly, making it so that if you can't jump around (assuming the skulk isn't terrible and can aim) you have one shot MAYBE two to kill the skulk.
Honestly, if we're taking jumping around out then leap needs to be re-balanced as well. I think we'll find that in 180 skulks are going to have much more of an edge on marines and they're going to be toned down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention fades, how do you escape yet alone kill one.
P.S. how can people call marine jump spam skill based? seriously? NS1 alien hunnyhop WAS skill because it required timing (i still never liked the idea or look of it though). But honestly, choosing which way to jump, i really don't see how that could be called a skill based ability.
half-life 1 - 9.3 million copies.
So I guess we should try and make ns2 more like the sims? it's clearly what gamers want.
that's just about as silly as connecting jump spam with game success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sims is not a shooter, not multiplayer, and has no relevence to this game - your point is invalid. You could have said Angry Birds or Final Fantasy and it would be just as pointless o.O
Also what's up Underwhelmed/Exon, have you bought NS2 yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got my black marine edition
Why aren't you on my Friends List?
How long you hold the jump key affects the angle of your jump.
But it'd need some other things to not be abusable, like a briefly slowed movement after landing so marines won't use it just to traverse the map more quickly, and maybe disabling jump for a second afterwards so it can't be used again. Or at least making the slowdown affect the jump velocity.
With that, you get a believable dodging sort of movement that feels like you're throwing yourself aside when you feel the teeth on your butt, without the marine disappearing from the skulks field of view, since the dodge-jump would be low to the ground. While still keeping the ability to jump over obstacles, of course.
that was the whole point, showing how pointless the connection was.. well done! *clap*
How long you hold the jump key affects the angle of your jump.
With that, you get a believable dodging sort of movement that feels like you're throwing yourself aside when you feel the teeth on your butt, without the marine disappearing from the skulks field of view, since the dodge-jump would be low to the ground. While still keeping the ability to jump over obstacles, of course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've toyed with this idea. I think we should avoid holding/charging mechanics when possible, for the sake of simplicity and consistency. Why not a simple directional modifier instead?
Neutral Jump = Vertical Jump (90º)
Forward Jump = Standard Jump (45º)
Sprinting Jump = Long Jump (15º)
Strafe Jump = Lateral Dodge
Skulks also have no counter to jump spam. They may successful predict that the marine will jump but there isn't anything they can do about it. It doesn't create a back and forth dynamic that is fun.
It isn't skill based at all, and can't be compared to bunny hoping or any other skill based jumping from FPS games.
If other things need to be changed as a result of removing the jumping then so be it. That's not a good reason to keep a bad gameplay mechanic in.
Skulks also have no counter to jump spam. They may successful predict that the marine will jump but there isn't anything they can do about it. It doesn't create a back and forth dynamic that is fun.
It isn't skill based at all, and can't be compared to bunny hoping or any other skill based jumping from FPS games.
If other things need to be changed as a result of removing the jumping then so be it. That's not a good reason to keep a bad gameplay mechanic in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone who is arguing for skill-based movement is in support of jump spam or thinks that the two are any way related. What we are saying is that there is a lack of movement mechanics which forces you to use the only dodging technique currently present in the game. I'm happy to see the endless stationary jumping end as long as we are provided another (hopefully skill-based) method for evading attacks at melee range.
<!--quoteo(post=1858593:date=Jul 8 2011, 12:52 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 8 2011, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've toyed with this idea. I think we should avoid holding/charging mechanics when possible, for the sake of simplicity and consistency. Why not a simple directional modifier instead?
Neutral Jump = Vertical Jump (90º)
Forward Jump = Standard Jump (45º)
Sprinting Jump = Long Jump (15º)
Strafe Jump = Lateral Dodge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.
So those things that azimaith and Kuban suggested, or things like it, are a good first pass. Other things I would suggest:
- There could be modifier keys for the jump to pull off some of the things you suggest, though you'd probably just use Ctrl+Shift which are already used, to keep the complexity down.
- Shift-sprint could also act as more of an accelerate button (up to a maximum speed - the current sprint) - the acceleration would be more gentle, so you could better control your speed.
- Another method you could control your speed is, for example, while holding the shift button to sprint, the further down you (your view) are looking (down to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the faster you sprint (this simulates a sprinter's running posture while accelerating); while the further up you are looking (up to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the slower you sprint (this simulates our natural tendency to lean back to decelerate while running). Time spent recovering from sprinting (bringing your weapon back up) should be proportional (rather than constant) to the time required to decelerate to walking speed, to allow us to use short bursts of controlled acceleration while remaining viable in combat.
Movement <b>should</b> be a part of combat. We need more control over our movement, as fine as we can get it, while still being robust and intuitive.
I'm also quite confused by your statement. It sounds like you're saying that we should "only give aliens skill based movement while marines have limited movement". So since they do have limited movement now, we should give aliens skill-based movement at this point in time; but if we were to improve marine movement... then we shouldn't give aliens skill-based movement.
I'm also quite confused by your statement. Are you saying you want to limit marine movement further, while at the same time increasing kharaa mobility?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I play marines whenever I can but aliens depend more on skill based movement which is why they MUST have better mobility no matter what.
I'm saying marine movement is fine expect for marine sprint currently. Since aliens lack any skill based movement, and in the next patch aliens leap is moved to second hive upgrade, this only further nerfs aliens in the early games while marines keep their sprint by default start of any match. And the only reason aliens having such hard time with marines "jumping" is because of how much alien movement is crippled.
I'm fully aware what charlie is trying to do damage/slow thing, but he is avoiding adding skill based movement to aliens. In ns1, aliens could easily close the gap needed even without leap but now they can't while leap even is being taken away early.
Where did you see that? Aliens are going to get absolutely raped in every game since people forgot how to ambush in NS2.
That idea has already been suggested. The problem with that is it makes Marine movement feel too restrictive (although it is somewhat realistic).
<!--quoteo(post=1858754:date=Jul 8 2011, 03:11 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 8 2011, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did you see that? Aliens are going to get absolutely raped in every game since people forgot how to ambush in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Charlie mentioned it a while ago. Don't worry though, it is probably scrapped in favor of Rifle butt knock back.
I don't think that aliens forgot how to ambush. The problem is ambushing has become less effective, as Marines move very fast with sprint (sprint speed: 6, skulk speed: 6.25). Not to mention Marines who use their minimaps can see Skulks from up to 5 seconds away. So I really hope they don't disable Leap at the start of the game.
It remind me a lot of the threads that were in NS1 /me rolls eyes