<!--quoteo(post=1854977:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:19 PM:name=revbass)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (revbass @ Jun 21 2011, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, look how slow Skulks move now, compared to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it might be slightly sped up or the blurry field of view or some other weirdness causes it look even faster that usually. My bad, I mostly wanted to demonstrate the look of it, not so much the speed gain itself.
Nevertheless, bhop provides something like 180% base speed. Add celerity and you're going fast. I'm not sure about the NS2 base speed, but with NS1 numbers a vanilla walker skulk goes 290. With good bhop it's hanging around 500-530. Add celerity (+30% base speed) and you're going somewhere around 700. Compared to base walking speed celerity bhop is crazy fast indeed.
---
The NS2 jumpy thing right now resembles something we see in BF2 for example. However, I have no idea why it has to be called bhop while it seems to be a rather simple pogo jump thingy instead of a relatively complex system used for example in NS1. The HL1 engine bhop has been called that for a long while and at least I don't know any alternative names for it.
For the clarity I'd like to reserve the name for the original because it has very strong roots in the NS community and is still a pretty relevant design discussion subject. Stamping extra meanings on top of it is going to cause misconceptions, make discussing difficult and so on. I don't want to have to explain that I'm talking about NS1 bhop and that it's not the jump spam thing every time I want to mention the bloody thing.
So, could we please find some other name for the jump spam NS2 is going through right now? The barrier between different player levels and backgrounds is painfully big already as it is.
I'm not completely sure about the exact definitions if there even are any. For this discussion the most essential thing is to recognize that neither of these exist in NS2, at least not to the extend where you could use the terms to the full.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That video is really deceptive. There are some strafe jumps in it, but the majority of it is actually just bunny hopping.
Strafe jumping and bunny hopping are essentially the same thing in the HL1 engine. They both take advantage of the air control, view angles, and strafe keys to increase your speed while in the air. The only distinction is that marines CAN'T bunnyhop, but they still could take advantage of the same mechanic to get a longer single (and sometimes double if landing on a higher platform) jump... that is called a strafe jump. The bunny hop is just a series of strafe jumps that also take advantage of a bug where if you jump fast enough upon hitting the ground, the friction force is not applied so you can actually maintain the speed gained from previous strafe jumps and have a higher average movement speed. (I think it was something like 140% of your normal move speed.)
I agree Marines need some jump spam nerfing. I also agree that jumping is essential to the marine experience. Dodging was always one of the most rewarding things to do in NS1 for me.
It also might be that there is some bad prediction going on or something with jumping because the last time I played I faced someone using this tactic and they were basically teleporting around me at different heights. As a fade I couldn't approach without losing track of where he was.
<!--quoteo(post=1854135:date=Jun 18 2011, 12:32 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 18 2011, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you need to jump and shoot at all? What does that do? What does it solve?
If removing jump-shooting decreases marine survivability in firefights, I think the solution is to nerf things that jump-shooting protects against, not keep an awkward mechanic in the game simply because it's already there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why does anything need to be nerfed at all when there are obvious mechanical issues (like lag) and it's only a beta? Beta's are mainly for finding/fixing bugs and evaluating overall gameplay. If we go around nerfing everything little thing because somebody isn't good at it or can't figure it out, we'll have a dumbed down game that nobody will want to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1854960:date=Jun 21 2011, 06:56 AM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jun 21 2011, 06:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Posts like these really scare me hopefully Charlie does not listen to it.
Marines NEED mobility in order for this game to be fair and balanced. Without it they are basically sitting ducks just waiting to be eaten. Marines have already been nerfed in regards to backing up. The main gun they use for the majority of the game takes a ton of bullets to kill an enemy. Skulks on the other hand get a great bite weapon which if used with ambush is a deadly combination. If you die after ambushing a marine it means you probably messed up somewhere. If you were running down big hallways pretending you own the place then you should die. Skulks should be parasite -> cover to rack up the kills.
The answer to everything isn't nerf it.
The answer is wait until the game is in a more playable state until we start passing judgement on balance issues.
Yea it might suck that a marine is jumping around you. But think about it for a moment he doesn't have a bite gun that kills you in a very short period of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is basically how I feel. Great post.
At this point, hit detection and lag is really hurting gameplay and it's quite obvious. Many of you are exclaiming we need to nerf things, when in reality we don't have a complete game. It's unfair to start nerfing aspects of the game when, technically speaking, the game isn't in it's final, ready-to-go stages.
Think about this - yesterday, I had weapons three and I was shooting a skulk who was attacking a teammate. I used an entire clip and five bullets of another clip to bring him down, and I'm no new guy when it comes to fps shooters. I'm not trying to brag but I have an extensive background in online fps shooters and there's no way that my aim is that bad where I need 55 bullets to kill one skulk when I have weapons three. As I was shooting the skulk, his movements were sporadic and he would also lag into parts of the screen that I couldn't see.
Once the game is optimized and things are on a more level playing field, then we can start getting down to real technical issues like this. However, I have seen several skulks do just fine against jumping marines (including myself when I jump around).
<!--quoteo(post=1855016:date=Jun 21 2011, 04:28 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Jun 21 2011, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That video is really deceptive. There are some strafe jumps in it, but the majority of it is actually just bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as I've understood it:
Bunnyhopping uses strafejumps a bit, but big part of it is air curving. Speed is affected by midair performance also.
Strafe Jumping in Quake uses only chained strafe jumps both to gain and preserve speed. No air curve or ways to affect the speed midair. Add air curve (not present in Quake Live) and it becomes bhopping.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafe-jumping#Bunny_hopping" target="_blank">Wikipedia</a> seems to think air curve is part of bhopping too:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=wikipedia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More advanced techniques known as bunny hopping use game physics to move faster than the base movement speed, combined with air-control (the ability to change movement direction significantly without losing speed while in the air).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how many people call the marine jumps strafe jumps in NS1, but they're not those at least by original Quake definition, I think. It's a pretty messed up terminology, so I'm not sure if there even is any official correct answer though.
I could probably discuss these for days because I find them quite interesting, but probably essential thing for this thread is that none of this is happening in NS2 right now and it's experiencing more of a jump spam thingy (possibly somewhat related to <b>BF2</b> bhopping) rather than any of these more complex movement methods.
<!--quoteo(post=1854960:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:56 PM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jun 21 2011, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines NEED mobility in order for this game to be fair and balanced. [...] Yea it might suck that a marine is jumping around you. But think about it for a moment he doesn't have a bite gun that kills you in a very short period of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines don't "need" anything. The game can easily be balanced around them not being able to mash the space bar. Just make the guns more deadly or give them more hp/armor. A decision needs to be made soon though; either balance the game around bouncing marines (this will make mashing space bar a necessity and we'll soon see everyone doing it) or balance the game around non-bouncing marines (this makes most sense to me).
<!--quoteo(post=1854990:date=Jun 21 2011, 04:46 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 21 2011, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is very annoying to see someone post example video two posts above and see guy under him ignore everything. It gives very bad image of BH to those who are unfamiliar because they have no idea you are talking rubbish and the SHlT explodes like the post above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think he ignored anything. He was just talking about bunny hopping in the sense of mashing the space bar, which is the only definition relevant to this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1855016:date=Jun 21 2011, 06:28 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Jun 21 2011, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That video is really deceptive. There are some strafe jumps in it, but the majority of it is actually just bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone seems to have thier own definitions. These are the ones I'm familiar with:
Bunny jumping/hopping (Quake engine based games such as QuakeWorld, Half-Life, Natural Selection, and most Source games.) - Exploiting air acceleration in order to gain speed. Done by only using jump and strafe buttons. Gives a lot of aircontrol.
Strafe jumping (Quake 2 and 3 engine based games.) - Exploiting air acceleration in order to gain speed. Done by using jump, <u>forward</u> and strafe buttons. Not a lot of aircontrol.
Circle jumping (All of the above) - Exploiting friction (?) in order to gain speed in a single jump. Done by holding forward and strafe, doing a quick 90 degree turn and jumping.
Bunny hopping (For lack of a better term. Found in basically any game with a jump feature, including NS2) - Jumping repeatedly in order to be harder to hit.
Now I don't see a point in calling the last one anything other than bunny hopping, and using it in the context of NS2 should make it clear what we're talking about since there is no Quake engine legacy glitch to exploit. The reason I want it gone is purely cosmetical. I don't see how anyone could disagree that having marines constantly jumping up and down would look very silly, and I haven't heard a single convincing argument for how removing it would take away from the gameplay.
marine jump spam is or was buggy and nothing could hit it because the hitboxes are messed up. I would laugh if this still wasn't fixed yet. also, the lerk hitboxes are atrocious
i think flayra is 2 busy watching and posting pictures of passing men in rollerblades on twitter 2 fix bugs
<!--quoteo(post=1855032:date=Jun 21 2011, 05:40 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 21 2011, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now I don't see a point in calling the last one anything other than bunny hopping, and using it in the context of NS2 should make it clear what we're talking about since there is no Quake engine legacy glitch to exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you used the term twice. So you mean two different things when saying that. Bhop is a term that comes from Quake, so it should stay there?
I love that discussion. What about that: Spamjumping. Or Jumpspamming. Maked more sense than Bhopping, becauuuuuseeeee it will fckin always disturb people, including me, and the OP of this thread also used it.
<!--quoteo(post=1854990:date=Jun 21 2011, 09:46 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 21 2011, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please go to NS1 and learn bunnyhob, preferably with a tutor.
It is very annoying to see someone post example video two posts above and see guy under him ignore everything. It gives very bad image of BH to those who are unfamiliar because they have no idea you are talking rubbish and the SHlT explodes like the post above.
Immersion and "complexness" are pathetic excuses setting limit to your imagination feeding sense of inferiority only fact being people are lazy.
Can we get sticky bunny thread with facts less delusions?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS, Played Quake, Played Tribes, Played CS and shed load tons of other HL mods for years. I know what bunny hopping is. I saw the videos he posted, they were nice.
I have since then played many other types of FPS and shooters...that all played differently and required different skills to be effective. Coming back, I can safely say I'd rather not have bunny hopping. Is it really that hard to believe? Besides the bunny hopping you are getting all worked up over isn't even in the game. What we have now is a more "modern" form of bunny hopping that more and more games today are getting rid of.
<!--quoteo(post=1855045:date=Jun 21 2011, 01:11 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 21 2011, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have since then played many other types of FPS and shooters...that all played differently and required different skills to be effective. Coming back, I can safely say I'd rather not have bunny hopping. Is it really that hard to believe?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes
<!--quoteo(post=1855032:date=Jun 21 2011, 11:40 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 21 2011, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines don't "need" anything. The game can easily be balanced around them not being able to mash the space bar. Just make the guns more deadly or give them more hp/armor. A decision needs to be made soon though; either balance the game around bouncing marines (this will make mashing space bar a necessity and we'll soon see everyone doing it) or balance the game around non-bouncing marines (this makes most sense to me).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, however increasing health and armor won't do anything imho. People will jump around on instinct as soon as an alien gets near them. Stronger weapons are really the only option. I think they'll try and balance the game around non-bouncing marines. Right now I think aliens have an advantage in combat and it will soon be tweaked.
People, people, let's just leave the discussion of whether or not the name Bunny Hopping is appropriate for this thread and call the phenomena what it is: An excessive use of the jump tactic beyond any reasonable threshold of realism and with little to no economy in its use. Colloquially: "Jump Spam".
I think it looks terrible, adds to much chance to combat, and requires very little skill for the survival reward it gives. To everyone here who is saying it's a part of the game or is needed for balance: we can just change the game so it isn't a part. A key question here is: if jump spam is a key part of Marine balance, what happens to all the Marines who don't want to or know how to do it?
<!--quoteo(post=1855068:date=Jun 21 2011, 01:46 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 21 2011, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this, however increasing health and armor won't do anything imho. People will jump around on instinct as soon as an alien gets near them. Stronger weapons are really the only option. I think they'll try and balance the game around non-bouncing marines. Right now I think aliens have an advantage in combat and it will soon be tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't jump around if it stops them from shooting their gun ^.^
I think we need another performance boost before we plead for the implementation of any of the jump spam removal strategies.
Yes the jump spam looks silly. But if the hitreg is more solid, the Skulk can just jump with the marine and take bites. Thus making the jump spam ...only that one thing ....silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1855070:date=Jun 21 2011, 01:52 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 21 2011, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A key question here is: if jump spam is a key part of Marine balance, what happens to all the Marines who don't want to or know how to do it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> so basically you're asking 'what happens to marines that don't want to get better?' LOL
<!--quoteo(post=1855080:date=Jun 21 2011, 09:26 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so basically you're asking 'what happens to marines that don't want to get better?' LOL<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So basically mashing space bar = getting better?
<!--quoteo(post=1855088:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:32 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 21 2011, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So basically mashing space bar = getting better?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> if u figure out a nice exploit that keeps u alive like mashing jump as a marine then it is a skill that will make u bbetter, yes
<!--quoteo(post=1855090:date=Jun 21 2011, 09:35 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blame da game not da player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *facepalm*
<!--quoteo(post=1855090:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:35 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if u figure out a nice exploit that keeps u alive like mashing jump as a marine then it is a skill that will make u bbetter, yes
blame da game not da player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This just in guys, exploits make the game better for pr0 play3rs
<!--quoteo(post=1855097:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:37 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 21 2011, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This just in guys, exploits make the game better for pr0 play3rs
UW, re-implement infinite Pres exploits please!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> im sry but just because pro players took time to learn and execute bhop perfectly does not mean u should be sad
<!--quoteo(post=1855070:date=Jun 22 2011, 04:52 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 22 2011, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People, people, let's just leave the discussion of whether or not the name Bunny Hopping is appropriate for this thread and call the phenomena what it is: An excessive use of the jump tactic beyond any reasonable threshold of realism and with little to no economy in its use. Colloquially: "Jump Spam".
I think it looks terrible, adds to much chance to combat, and requires very little skill for the survival reward it gives. To everyone here who is saying it's a part of the game or is needed for balance: we can just change the game so it isn't a part. A key question here is: if jump spam is a key part of Marine balance, what happens to all the Marines who don't want to or know how to do it?
They won't jump around if it stops them from shooting their gun ^.^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please, to all of you anti jumpers, please please provide some ingame footage evidence of this jump exploitation <b>specifically in NS2</b> and how it is unfair and not fun. Apart from sprint reloading, I havn't seen any kind of marine movement and jump spamming that has been in any degree game breaking. I would very much like to see what 6 pages of fuss is all about.
<!--quoteo(post=1855104:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 21 2011, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please, to all of you anti jumpers, please please provide some ingame footage evidence of this jump exploitation <b>specifically in NS2</b> and how it is unfair and not fun. Apart from sprint reloading, I havn't seen any kind of marine movement and jump spamming that has been in any degree game breaking. I would very much like to see what 6 pages of fuss is all about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they are just bad at biting because their fps is so soul crushingly low
<!--quoteo(post=1855104:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 21 2011, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please, to all of you anti jumpers, please please provide some ingame footage evidence of this jump exploitation <b>specifically in NS2</b> and how it is unfair and not fun. Apart from sprint reloading, I havn't seen any kind of marine movement and jump spamming that has been in any degree game breaking. I would very much like to see what 6 pages of fuss is all about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that's a perfectly fair request; I'll see if I can get FRAPS to play nice with NS2.exe tonight.
<!--quoteo(post=1855106:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:42 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 21 2011, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's a perfectly fair request; I'll see if I can get FRAPS to play nice with NS2.exe tonight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i cant wait for this 1
<!--quoteo(post=1855100:date=Jun 21 2011, 09:39 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im sry but just because pro players took time to learn and execute bhop perfectly does not mean u should be sad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As has been stated a thousand times, we're not talking about bunny hopping in Quake/NS1. We're talking about people mashing the jump button to be harder to hit in NS2. Bunny hopping is a technique with a high skill cap and I've never been against it. Jump spamming is just that; spamming the jump button. There's no skill to it and it makes the game look silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1855113:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:45 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 21 2011, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As has been stated a thousand times, we're not talking about bunny hopping in Quake/NS1. We're talking about people mashing the jump button to be harder to hit in NS2. Bunny hopping is a technique with a high skill cap and I've never been against it. Jump spamming is just that; spamming the jump button. There's no skill to it and it makes the game look silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sorry but you got outskilled? maybe u should aim where they fall cause they have no air control? good skulk over here guys
<!--quoteo(post=1855115:date=Jun 21 2011, 09:47 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sorry but you got outskilled? maybe u should aim where they fall cause they have no air control? good skulk over here guys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like how you completely ignore my arguments. This isn't about skill, it's about me (and I bet a few others) not wanting the game to be balanced around a silly looking game mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1855126:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:59 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jun 21 2011, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how you completely ignore my arguments. This isn't about skill, it's about me (and I bet a few others) not wanting the game to be balanced around a silly looking game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't feed it, Agiel; just ignore it until it goes away and poke it with a stick every once and a while if you get bored.
the jump-spam will die on it's own eventually, and to be honest I don't see it that often. the better the servers and fps gets the easier it will be. you can still hit the marine feet so all you have to do is aim a bit higher.
Honestly I wish they would take the L4D2 approach, where the slow moving range based humans are able to push away the infected as their means of defense up close. Instead of hoping all over the map like buffoons which I know I say this a lot kills immersion, especially when you see your team mates jumping in a circle with a skulk like they are dancing.
I know they have the lmg butt move but they should do it exactly how lfd2 has it, you can shove at anytime with any gun but you can't spam it because after 3 shoves it will cool down, this way its FAR more realistic, I mean if a skulk FLIES at my face I'm instinctively going to PUSH it away not hop in a circle. Especially for a TRAINED marine, they teach close hand to hand combat, not how to move around like a ballerina.
<!--quoteo(post=1855131:date=Jun 21 2011, 03:09 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jun 21 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I wish they would take the L4D2 approach, where the slow moving range based humans are able to push away the infected as their means of defense up close. Instead of hoping all over the map like buffoons which I know I say this a lot kills immersion, especially when you see your team mates jumping in a circle with a skulk like they are dancing.
I know they have the lmg butt move but they should do it exactly how lfd2 has it, you can shove at anytime with any gun but you can't spam it because after 3 shoves it will cool down, this way its FAR more realistic, I mean if a skulk FLIES at my face I'm instinctively going to PUSH it away not hop in a circle. Especially for a TRAINED marine, they teach close hand to hand combat, not how to move around like a ballerina.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If they fixed the swing animation to be quicker and easier to time, I think this would actually do a good job of balancing Marine v Skulk combat in the early-game.
One concern I have though is Skulk enjoyment; is it going to get annoying and/or frustrating to fight an enemy with a ranged attack and an ability to punt you with nothing but melee to kill him with?
<!--quoteo(post=1855115:date=Jun 21 2011, 08:47 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sorry but you got outskilled? maybe u should aim where they fall cause they have no air control? good skulk over here guys<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, in NS2 they DO have air control...
Comments
I think it might be slightly sped up or the blurry field of view or some other weirdness causes it look even faster that usually. My bad, I mostly wanted to demonstrate the look of it, not so much the speed gain itself.
Nevertheless, bhop provides something like 180% base speed. Add celerity and you're going fast. I'm not sure about the NS2 base speed, but with NS1 numbers a vanilla walker skulk goes 290. With good bhop it's hanging around 500-530. Add celerity (+30% base speed) and you're going somewhere around 700. Compared to base walking speed celerity bhop is crazy fast indeed.
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The NS2 jumpy thing right now resembles something we see in BF2 for example. However, I have no idea why it has to be called bhop while it seems to be a rather simple pogo jump thingy instead of a relatively complex system used for example in NS1. The HL1 engine bhop has been called that for a long while and at least I don't know any alternative names for it.
For the clarity I'd like to reserve the name for the original because it has very strong roots in the NS community and is still a pretty relevant design discussion subject. Stamping extra meanings on top of it is going to cause misconceptions, make discussing difficult and so on. I don't want to have to explain that I'm talking about NS1 bhop and that it's not the jump spam thing every time I want to mention the bloody thing.
So, could we please find some other name for the jump spam NS2 is going through right now? The barrier between different player levels and backgrounds is painfully big already as it is.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-tX8YUI2RWo&"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-tX8YUI2RWo&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I'm not completely sure about the exact definitions if there even are any. For this discussion the most essential thing is to recognize that neither of these exist in NS2, at least not to the extend where you could use the terms to the full.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That video is really deceptive. There are some strafe jumps in it, but the majority of it is actually just bunny hopping.
Strafe jumping and bunny hopping are essentially the same thing in the HL1 engine. They both take advantage of the air control, view angles, and strafe keys to increase your speed while in the air. The only distinction is that marines CAN'T bunnyhop, but they still could take advantage of the same mechanic to get a longer single (and sometimes double if landing on a higher platform) jump... that is called a strafe jump.
The bunny hop is just a series of strafe jumps that also take advantage of a bug where if you jump fast enough upon hitting the ground, the friction force is not applied so you can actually maintain the speed gained from previous strafe jumps and have a higher average movement speed. (I think it was something like 140% of your normal move speed.)
I agree Marines need some jump spam nerfing. I also agree that jumping is essential to the marine experience. Dodging was always one of the most rewarding things to do in NS1 for me.
It also might be that there is some bad prediction going on or something with jumping because the last time I played I faced someone using this tactic and they were basically teleporting around me at different heights. As a fade I couldn't approach without losing track of where he was.
If removing jump-shooting decreases marine survivability in firefights, I think the solution is to nerf things that jump-shooting protects against, not keep an awkward mechanic in the game simply because it's already there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does anything need to be nerfed at all when there are obvious mechanical issues (like lag) and it's only a beta? Beta's are mainly for finding/fixing bugs and evaluating overall gameplay. If we go around nerfing everything little thing because somebody isn't good at it or can't figure it out, we'll have a dumbed down game that nobody will want to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1854960:date=Jun 21 2011, 06:56 AM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jun 21 2011, 06:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Posts like these really scare me hopefully Charlie does not listen to it.
Marines NEED mobility in order for this game to be fair and balanced. Without it they are basically sitting ducks just waiting to be eaten. Marines have already been nerfed in regards to backing up. The main gun they use for the majority of the game takes a ton of bullets to kill an enemy. Skulks on the other hand get a great bite weapon which if used with ambush is a deadly combination. If you die after ambushing a marine it means you probably messed up somewhere. If you were running down big hallways pretending you own the place then you should die. Skulks should be parasite -> cover to rack up the kills.
The answer to everything isn't nerf it.
The answer is wait until the game is in a more playable state until we start passing judgement on balance issues.
Yea it might suck that a marine is jumping around you. But think about it for a moment he doesn't have a bite gun that kills you in a very short period of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is basically how I feel. Great post.
At this point, hit detection and lag is really hurting gameplay and it's quite obvious. Many of you are exclaiming we need to nerf things, when in reality we don't have a complete game. It's unfair to start nerfing aspects of the game when, technically speaking, the game isn't in it's final, ready-to-go stages.
Think about this - yesterday, I had weapons three and I was shooting a skulk who was attacking a teammate. I used an entire clip and five bullets of another clip to bring him down, and I'm no new guy when it comes to fps shooters. I'm not trying to brag but I have an extensive background in online fps shooters and there's no way that my aim is that bad where I need 55 bullets to kill one skulk when I have weapons three. As I was shooting the skulk, his movements were sporadic and he would also lag into parts of the screen that I couldn't see.
Once the game is optimized and things are on a more level playing field, then we can start getting down to real technical issues like this. However, I have seen several skulks do just fine against jumping marines (including myself when I jump around).
As far as I've understood it:
Bunnyhopping uses strafejumps a bit, but big part of it is air curving. Speed is affected by midair performance also.
Strafe Jumping in Quake uses only chained strafe jumps both to gain and preserve speed. No air curve or ways to affect the speed midair. Add air curve (not present in Quake Live) and it becomes bhopping.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafe-jumping#Bunny_hopping" target="_blank">Wikipedia</a> seems to think air curve is part of bhopping too:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=wikipedia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More advanced techniques known as bunny hopping use game physics to move faster than the base movement speed, combined with air-control (the ability to change movement direction significantly without losing speed while in the air).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how many people call the marine jumps strafe jumps in NS1, but they're not those at least by original Quake definition, I think. It's a pretty messed up terminology, so I'm not sure if there even is any official correct answer though.
I could probably discuss these for days because I find them quite interesting, but probably essential thing for this thread is that none of this is happening in NS2 right now and it's experiencing more of a jump spam thingy (possibly somewhat related to <b>BF2</b> bhopping) rather than any of these more complex movement methods.
Marines don't "need" anything. The game can easily be balanced around them not being able to mash the space bar. Just make the guns more deadly or give them more hp/armor. A decision needs to be made soon though; either balance the game around bouncing marines (this will make mashing space bar a necessity and we'll soon see everyone doing it) or balance the game around non-bouncing marines (this makes most sense to me).
<!--quoteo(post=1854990:date=Jun 21 2011, 04:46 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 21 2011, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is very annoying to see someone post example video two posts above and see guy under him ignore everything. It gives very bad image of BH to those who are unfamiliar because they have no idea you are talking rubbish and the SHlT explodes like the post above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think he ignored anything. He was just talking about bunny hopping in the sense of mashing the space bar, which is the only definition relevant to this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1855016:date=Jun 21 2011, 06:28 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Jun 21 2011, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That video is really deceptive. There are some strafe jumps in it, but the majority of it is actually just bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone seems to have thier own definitions. These are the ones I'm familiar with:
Bunny jumping/hopping (Quake engine based games such as QuakeWorld, Half-Life, Natural Selection, and most Source games.) - Exploiting air acceleration in order to gain speed. Done by only using jump and strafe buttons. Gives a lot of aircontrol.
Strafe jumping (Quake 2 and 3 engine based games.) - Exploiting air acceleration in order to gain speed. Done by using jump, <u>forward</u> and strafe buttons. Not a lot of aircontrol.
Circle jumping (All of the above) - Exploiting friction (?) in order to gain speed in a single jump. Done by holding forward and strafe, doing a quick 90 degree turn and jumping.
Bunny hopping (For lack of a better term. Found in basically any game with a jump feature, including NS2) - Jumping repeatedly in order to be harder to hit.
Now I don't see a point in calling the last one anything other than bunny hopping, and using it in the context of NS2 should make it clear what we're talking about since there is no Quake engine legacy glitch to exploit. The reason I want it gone is purely cosmetical. I don't see how anyone could disagree that having marines constantly jumping up and down would look very silly, and I haven't heard a single convincing argument for how removing it would take away from the gameplay.
marine jump spam is or was buggy and nothing could hit it because the hitboxes are messed up. I would laugh if this still wasn't fixed yet. also, the lerk hitboxes are atrocious
i think flayra is 2 busy watching and posting pictures of passing men in rollerblades on twitter 2 fix bugs
Because you used the term twice. So you mean two different things when saying that. Bhop is a term that comes from Quake, so it should stay there?
I love that discussion. What about that: Spamjumping. Or Jumpspamming. Maked more sense than Bhopping, becauuuuuseeeee it will fckin always disturb people, including me, and the OP of this thread also used it.
It is very annoying to see someone post example video two posts above and see guy under him ignore everything. It gives very bad image of BH to those who are unfamiliar because they have no idea you are talking rubbish and the SHlT explodes like the post above.
Immersion and "complexness" are pathetic excuses setting limit to your imagination feeding sense of inferiority only fact being people are lazy.
Can we get sticky bunny thread with facts less delusions?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS, Played Quake, Played Tribes, Played CS and shed load tons of other HL mods for years. I know what bunny hopping is. I saw the videos he posted, they were nice.
I have since then played many other types of FPS and shooters...that all played differently and required different skills to be effective. Coming back, I can safely say I'd rather not have bunny hopping. Is it really that hard to believe? Besides the bunny hopping you are getting all worked up over isn't even in the game. What we have now is a more "modern" form of bunny hopping that more and more games today are getting rid of.
yes
I agree with this, however increasing health and armor won't do anything imho. People will jump around on instinct as soon as an alien gets near them. Stronger weapons are really the only option. I think they'll try and balance the game around non-bouncing marines. Right now I think aliens have an advantage in combat and it will soon be tweaked.
I think it looks terrible, adds to much chance to combat, and requires very little skill for the survival reward it gives. To everyone here who is saying it's a part of the game or is needed for balance: we can just change the game so it isn't a part. A key question here is: if jump spam is a key part of Marine balance, what happens to all the Marines who don't want to or know how to do it?
<!--quoteo(post=1855068:date=Jun 21 2011, 01:46 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 21 2011, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this, however increasing health and armor won't do anything imho. People will jump around on instinct as soon as an alien gets near them. Stronger weapons are really the only option. I think they'll try and balance the game around non-bouncing marines. Right now I think aliens have an advantage in combat and it will soon be tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't jump around if it stops them from shooting their gun ^.^
jump spam
removal strategies.
Yes the jump spam looks silly.
But if the hitreg is more solid, the Skulk can just jump with the marine and take bites.
Thus making the jump spam ...only that one thing ....silly.
so basically you're asking 'what happens to marines that don't want to get better?' LOL
So basically mashing space bar = getting better?
if u figure out a nice exploit that keeps u alive like mashing jump as a marine then it is a skill that will make u bbetter, yes
blame da game not da player
*facepalm*
blame da game not da player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just in guys, exploits make the game better for pr0 play3rs
UW, re-implement infinite Pres exploits please!
UW, re-implement infinite Pres exploits please!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im sry but just because pro players took time to learn and execute bhop perfectly does not mean u should be sad
I think it looks terrible, adds to much chance to combat, and requires very little skill for the survival reward it gives. To everyone here who is saying it's a part of the game or is needed for balance: we can just change the game so it isn't a part. A key question here is: if jump spam is a key part of Marine balance, what happens to all the Marines who don't want to or know how to do it?
They won't jump around if it stops them from shooting their gun ^.^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please, to all of you anti jumpers, please please provide some ingame footage evidence of this jump exploitation <b>specifically in NS2</b> and how it is unfair and not fun. Apart from sprint reloading, I havn't seen any kind of marine movement and jump spamming that has been in any degree game breaking. I would very much like to see what 6 pages of fuss is all about.
they are just bad at biting because their fps is so soul crushingly low
I think that's a perfectly fair request; I'll see if I can get FRAPS to play nice with NS2.exe tonight.
i cant wait for this 1
As has been stated a thousand times, we're not talking about bunny hopping in Quake/NS1. We're talking about people mashing the jump button to be harder to hit in NS2. Bunny hopping is a technique with a high skill cap and I've never been against it. Jump spamming is just that; spamming the jump button. There's no skill to it and it makes the game look silly.
sorry but you got outskilled? maybe u should aim where they fall cause they have no air control? good skulk over here guys
I like how you completely ignore my arguments. This isn't about skill, it's about me (and I bet a few others) not wanting the game to be balanced around a silly looking game mechanic.
Don't feed it, Agiel; just ignore it until it goes away and poke it with a stick every once and a while if you get bored.
the better the servers and fps gets the easier it will be. you can still hit the marine feet so all you have to do is aim a bit higher.
I know they have the lmg butt move but they should do it exactly how lfd2 has it, you can shove at anytime with any gun but you can't spam it because after 3 shoves it will cool down, this way its FAR more realistic, I mean if a skulk FLIES at my face I'm instinctively going to PUSH it away not hop in a circle. Especially for a TRAINED marine, they teach close hand to hand combat, not how to move around like a ballerina.
I know they have the lmg butt move but they should do it exactly how lfd2 has it, you can shove at anytime with any gun but you can't spam it because after 3 shoves it will cool down, this way its FAR more realistic, I mean if a skulk FLIES at my face I'm instinctively going to PUSH it away not hop in a circle. Especially for a TRAINED marine, they teach close hand to hand combat, not how to move around like a ballerina.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they fixed the swing animation to be quicker and easier to time, I think this would actually do a good job of balancing Marine v Skulk combat in the early-game.
One concern I have though is Skulk enjoyment; is it going to get annoying and/or frustrating to fight an enemy with a ranged attack and an ability to punt you with nothing but melee to kill him with?
Well, in NS2 they DO have air control...