<!--quoteo(post=1774708:date=Jun 13 2010, 01:56 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 13 2010, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since we're using nanite-based ammo, there's another way to explain how the shotgun is good against chitinous armored targets: variable programming ammunition. Assuming your nanotech is adequate (which it seems to be), the shell, when loaded and chambered, could remain unprogrammed until the moment it is fired.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome explanation. It's also interesting how the pro's of pump shotguns are not being applied to this model.
Pump shotties are desirable for their reliability, ruggedness, and simplicity. Easy to clean, less parts generally equates to less that can go wrong- not to mention less expensive to make. It seems this whole advantage and aura of the pump shotgun is being contradicted by throwing flashing lights and extra mechanisms to explain the inconsistencies of its functionality.
<!--quoteo(post=1774751:date=Jun 14 2010, 07:09 AM:name=Unsichtbar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unsichtbar @ Jun 14 2010, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess at this point the whole game needs a redesign :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As others have pointed out.. the sg is ridiculously senseless by design.
You're loading too far forward on the weapon, is it 'phasing' to the back of the barrel? Why don't you just make an sg pistol? (not really)
You're loading ammo from the top??? the reason weapons load from the bottom, or side, is because people pull ammo off their belts or jackets, which is below the head; and hench, below the area where a person generally shots a firearm. If, for some strange reason, people were to regularly shoot weapons from below their hips maybe it would make sense to load the weapon from the top. Otherwise, loading such a way would almost require a person to point the weapon down (alternatively, they could put their hand/arm in front of their line of sight.. your animation, happens to do both).
I'm pulling for yall.. love what you do.. but I can't believe yall put as much effort as you've already displayed into such an obvious bad design.
<!--quoteo(post=1774754:date=Jun 14 2010, 08:13 AM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Jun 14 2010, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need to be redesigned!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1774757:date=Jun 14 2010, 07:38 AM:name=Unsichtbar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unsichtbar @ Jun 14 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you out of your nanites? ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the beginning there were nanites, and it was good.
<!--quoteo(post=1774019:date=Jun 9 2010, 12:58 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jun 9 2010, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is my problem with it as well. you cant have the shotgun magazine inline with the barrel. the shells are loaded too far forward. when you load shells into a shotgun, they push the shells already in there forward. if the magazine was on top, then you'd be able to fit max 3 shells in the shotgun.
also because the ejection port is so far forward, theres no need for the shot gun to extend out, you could chop off everything between the pistol grip and ejection port and just make it shorter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the obligatory "i have a problem with that aswell" from me. it should be at least plausible. otherwise its just magic.. i have nothing against some nanite technology here and hthere.. but obvious nanite magic is obviously annoying and displeasing for the common sense
Dear Points of View, With your current update I must say I was most displeased. The designing of your shotgun makes as much sense as my auntie Shelley after a couple of Pimms (and is probably about as water-tight!!)
I know for a fact already that when I'm shooting an alien in the face as one of Our Brave Boys with this MONSTROUS excuse for a "weapon" and I must chamber my ammunition it will crush my day and, like all good Englishmen, I would not want this blatant pro-unreality propaganda to be seen by my child. I am raising them to know the DIFFERENCE between RIGHT and WRONG. GOOD and EVIL. MECHANICALLY CORRECT WEAPONRY and FLIMSY MALFUNCTIONING PAPERWEIGHTS. Something you <b>godless San Francisco liberals</b> obviously know nothing about. I'm not racist (some of my best friends are game developers!) but nanite-tech weapons manufacturing is stealing our jobs. It's just common sense!
I have another idea for the ammo counter screen- shrink it to show six pips instead of numbers. YOu really dont need two large digits since there will never be more than six, just just have six small pips to represent each shell. That way the screen can be far smaller and seem less flimsy. You still got a screen, you still can see how many shells, and you got a smaller screen. It might not sound fancy, but it does sound more innovative from a design perspective
<!--quoteo(post=1774007:date=Jun 8 2010, 10:16 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 8 2010, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not necessarily better, reloading is supposed to leave you vulnerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree wholeheartedly. Reloading in video games more often than not in video game is just a pause where you can't shoot and can just look around. Having that little obstruction makes reloading much more strategic for both marines and aliens. A good thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1774026:date=Jun 8 2010, 11:32 PM:name=evanbenn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evanbenn @ Jun 8 2010, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->keep in mind, competitive players WILL turn off the onscreen guns. So please make sure there is hud info on bullets etc...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That the best argument in FAVOR of ammo counters on the gun model I've ever seen. Still hackers always find a way. Anyway, wouldn't real competitive player keep their ammo count mentally with or without HUD?
Personally speaking I agree with many shotgun viewers on this channel of the forum and it is a good work. I honestly feel your shotguns are used in the realm of physics very realistically with the shoulder rest.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blabla competetive yaddayadda<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> establish the paragraph to not disable viewmodels, problem solved.
honestly, so long as I can change gun models and animations, I don't really care what yall choose for your initial design. It's easy enough for competitive leagues to just not require stock models and animations, or set a different model and animation as the competitive standard.
It may seem to some people that putting the ammo count on the weapon means there's a gameplay dependency for that model, but thre isn't. after a short while you'll just get a natural feel for the weapon mechanics, register events in your head, and than you'll just know when you need to reload.
By the way, the firing/recoil animations and sounds on the weapon are great.
One of the greatest custom models I used for NS was the Remmington shotgun. It just felt better.
Even though it's only aesthetics, the look and feel of the shotgun enhances the gameplay in some way. The shotgun looks sturdy and feels like you have a powerful gun in your hands, like an extension of yourself. At the same time, it's not so bulky that it feels pompous.
If it's possible, I'd recommend not pumping the shotgun after reloading unless all rounds have been fired and the weapon is empty. The shotgun is pumped after every shot, ejecting the spent round and chambering an unspent round. If you pump the shotgun to chamber a round while unspent ammunition is chambered then you would eject the currently chambered unspent round, thus wasting a round.
The Vortex Tactical Shotgun does not operate in the same manner as most firearms traditionally do. In fact, the shotgun shells have no primers. The explosive element in each shell is ignited via an internal electronic signal. Thus, shells can be stacked end-to-end inside the pre-fire chamber, which protrudes from the top of the gun during reload. The pump ejects spent casings from the firing chamber, and transfers into it a new shell from the pre-fire chamber.
The shotgun shot consists of millions of nanites particulates programmed to, on impact, dissolve and seek out and destroy Kharaa bacterium. These nanites are provided by the shotgun itself, hence its size, via millions of tiny nano-capillaries runing throughout the body of the firearm. When a shell is pumped into the firing chamber, the empty shell is filled with nanite shot. Excess nanites are used to repair the inevitable battle damage the firearm will receive in close quarters combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1774855:date=Jun 15 2010, 12:46 AM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Jun 15 2010, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Vortex Tactical Shotgun does not operate in the same manner as most firearms traditionally do. In fact, the shotgun shells have no primers. The explosive element in each shell is ignited via an internal electronic signal. Thus, shells can be stacked end-to-end inside the pre-fire chamber, which protrudes from the top of the gun during reload. The pump ejects spent casings from the firing chamber, and transfers into it a new shell from the pre-fire chamber.
The shotgun shot consists of millions of nanites particulates programmed to, on impact, dissolve and seek out and destroy Kharaa bacterium. These nanites are provided by the shotgun itself, hence its size, via millions of tiny nano-capillaries runing throughout the body of the firearm. When a shell is pumped into the firing chamber, the empty shell is filled with nanite shot. Excess nanites are used to repair the inevitable battle damage the firearm will receive in close quarters combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1774855:date=Jun 15 2010, 05:46 AM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Jun 15 2010, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Vortex Tactical Shotgun does not operate in the same manner as most firearms traditionally do. In fact, nanites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1774298:date=Jun 10 2010, 09:03 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 10 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reload animation is going to be reworked with the gun lower so that the animation takes up less screen space, and we hope to sort out the "magical" appearing shells, at the same time.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh don't worry about the magical appearing shells. People are just being too picky about it. Almost every game just has magical appearing bullets or superhuman fast reloaders that magically hide where the bullets are coming from. I just mentioned the animation of the reload because it can directly affect gameplay a bit.
I think I read a post from you guys that when developing a game when faced with a decision to make something more realistic or something that makes more gameplay sense, one should pick the gameplay sense decision. And not being so picky about the magical shells and getting the game out sooner makes gameplay sense to me :D
<!--quoteo(post=1774751:date=Jun 14 2010, 06:09 AM:name=Unsichtbar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unsichtbar @ Jun 14 2010, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nanites can replicate ammo out of thin air, so why should we reload any ammo?
The best solution is to drop some nanites on the battleground and let them spread through the air and programm them to kill aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, this is what is happening. The nanites are attempting to spread through the facility, but are being fought by the Kharaa bacteria fungus thing at the microscopic level. The whole battle between marines and kharaa is just the macroscopic attacks of a much smaller battlefield. In fact, I think in the literature it says that the aliens are only produced (hatched, whatever) by the bacteria in response to marines appearing and killing off the bacteria structures.
When thinking it over again, and looking closely.... The shotgun just does not make sense. You reload in the top barrel, the barrels are only about as long as the marines handpalm (since the shell ejection is there as well) and there's no freakin way 6 shells can be in the confines of that little space wile still beeing able to fire accuratly.
Here's what i'd do: get rid of that tiny little pump action that doesn't make sense anyway, load the shells through the bottom tilting the shotgun the other way, which not only looks more natural but takes up a bunch less screenspace too, use the part between the trigger and the ammo indicaters to load the shells in (the part that becomes accessable when it extends, which'll be the reason why it extends), make the pump action the same as extending it when you equip it (pumping the entire gun sorta speak, now that's pump-action), and move the shell ejection back. There's a whole empty area behind the ammo lightsabove the trigger which can be used for that.
It doesn't have to be 100% realistic this is the future and all but, shotguns are supposed to be big badass lots of stopping power weapons and this one feels more like a toy on a stick. Makes me wonder why you'd need such a large weapon if the actual shotgun part can fit under the barrel of a LMG...
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway. And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.
ammo counters. you just set the total rounds you start off with and it works out what you have left from how many rounds you;ve fired. if you pick up more ammo, you just adjust the ammo counters.
Comments
Awesome explanation. It's also interesting how the pro's of pump shotguns are not being applied to this model.
Pump shotties are desirable for their reliability, ruggedness, and simplicity. Easy to clean, less parts generally equates to less that can go wrong- not to mention less expensive to make. It seems this whole advantage and aura of the pump shotgun is being contradicted by throwing flashing lights and extra mechanisms to explain the inconsistencies of its functionality.
The best solution is to drop some nanites on the battleground and let them spread through the air and programm them to kill aliens.
- Game Over -
I guess at this point the whole game needs a redesign :p
You need to be redesigned!
You're loading too far forward on the weapon, is it 'phasing' to the back of the barrel? Why don't you just make an sg pistol? (not really)
You're loading ammo from the top??? the reason weapons load from the bottom, or side, is because people pull ammo off their belts or jackets, which is below the head; and hench, below the area where a person generally shots a firearm. If, for some strange reason, people were to regularly shoot weapons from below their hips maybe it would make sense to load the weapon from the top. Otherwise, loading such a way would almost require a person to point the weapon down (alternatively, they could put their hand/arm in front of their line of sight.. your animation, happens to do both).
I'm pulling for yall.. love what you do.. but I can't believe yall put as much effort as you've already displayed into such an obvious bad design.
my suggestion... K.I.S.S.
Are you out of your nanites? ^^
In the beginning there were nanites, and it was good.
also because the ejection port is so far forward, theres no need for the shot gun to extend out, you could chop off everything between the pistol grip and ejection port and just make it shorter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the obligatory "i have a problem with that aswell" from me. it should be at least plausible. otherwise its just magic.. i have nothing against some nanite technology here and hthere.. but obvious nanite magic is obviously annoying and displeasing for the common sense
With your current update I must say I was most displeased. The designing of your shotgun makes as much sense as my auntie Shelley after a couple of Pimms (and is probably about as water-tight!!)
I know for a fact already that when I'm shooting an alien in the face as one of Our Brave Boys with this MONSTROUS excuse for a "weapon" and I must chamber my ammunition it will crush my day and, like all good Englishmen, I would not want this blatant pro-unreality propaganda to be seen by my child. I am raising them to know the DIFFERENCE between RIGHT and WRONG. GOOD and EVIL. MECHANICALLY CORRECT WEAPONRY and FLIMSY MALFUNCTIONING PAPERWEIGHTS. Something you <b>godless San Francisco liberals</b> obviously know nothing about. I'm not racist (some of my best friends are game developers!) but nanite-tech weapons manufacturing is stealing our jobs. It's just common sense!
Yours patriotically,
<!--quoteo(post=1774026:date=Jun 8 2010, 11:32 PM:name=evanbenn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evanbenn @ Jun 8 2010, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->keep in mind, competitive players WILL turn off the onscreen guns. So please make sure there is hud info on bullets etc...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That the best argument in FAVOR of ammo counters on the gun model I've ever seen. Still hackers always find a way. Anyway, wouldn't real competitive player keep their ammo count mentally with or without HUD?
establish the paragraph to not disable viewmodels, problem solved.
It may seem to some people that putting the ammo count on the weapon means there's a gameplay dependency for that model, but thre isn't. after a short while you'll just get a natural feel for the weapon mechanics, register events in your head, and than you'll just know when you need to reload.
By the way, the firing/recoil animations and sounds on the weapon are great.
One of the greatest custom models I used for NS was the Remmington shotgun. It just felt better.
The shotgun is pumped after every shot, ejecting the spent round and chambering an unspent round.
If you pump the shotgun to chamber a round while unspent ammunition is chambered then you would eject the currently chambered unspent round, thus wasting a round.
The shotgun shot consists of millions of nanites particulates programmed to, on impact, dissolve and seek out and destroy Kharaa bacterium. These nanites are provided by the shotgun itself, hence its size, via millions of tiny nano-capillaries runing throughout the body of the firearm. When a shell is pumped into the firing chamber, the empty shell is filled with nanite shot. Excess nanites are used to repair the inevitable battle damage the firearm will receive in close quarters combat.
The shotgun shot consists of millions of nanites particulates programmed to, on impact, dissolve and seek out and destroy Kharaa bacterium. These nanites are provided by the shotgun itself, hence its size, via millions of tiny nano-capillaries runing throughout the body of the firearm. When a shell is pumped into the firing chamber, the empty shell is filled with nanite shot. Excess nanites are used to repair the inevitable battle damage the firearm will receive in close quarters combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And thus ends this thread, nice post.
fix'd ;o
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh don't worry about the magical appearing shells. People are just being too picky about it. Almost every game just has magical appearing bullets or superhuman fast reloaders that magically hide where the bullets are coming from. I just mentioned the animation of the reload because it can directly affect gameplay a bit.
I think I read a post from you guys that when developing a game when faced with a decision to make something more realistic or something that makes more gameplay sense, one should pick the gameplay sense decision. And not being so picky about the magical shells and getting the game out sooner makes gameplay sense to me :D
The best solution is to drop some nanites on the battleground and let them spread through the air and programm them to kill aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, this is what is happening. The nanites are attempting to spread through the facility, but are being fought by the Kharaa bacteria fungus thing at the microscopic level. The whole battle between marines and kharaa is just the macroscopic attacks of a much smaller battlefield. In fact, I think in the literature it says that the aliens are only produced (hatched, whatever) by the bacteria in response to marines appearing and killing off the bacteria structures.
In layman's terms, yes.
I would say one or the other, not both.
Here's what i'd do: get rid of that tiny little pump action that doesn't make sense anyway, load the shells through the bottom tilting the shotgun the other way, which not only looks more natural but takes up a bunch less screenspace too, use the part between the trigger and the ammo indicaters to load the shells in (the part that becomes accessable when it extends, which'll be the reason why it extends), make the pump action the same as extending it when you equip it (pumping the entire gun sorta speak, now that's pump-action), and move the shell ejection back. There's a whole empty area behind the ammo lightsabove the trigger which can be used for that.
It doesn't have to be 100% realistic this is the future and all but, shotguns are supposed to be big badass lots of stopping power weapons and this one feels more like a toy on a stick. Makes me wonder why you'd need such a large weapon if the actual shotgun part can fit under the barrel of a LMG...
<img src="http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1677/howisthispossible.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
How is that possible? >;(
I believe I prefer oldschool HUD information. The bright ammo indication is too close to the center of the screen anyway.
And all HUD elements should dim to fit into the brightness of the seen scene anyway.
[ammo counter picture]
How is that possible? >;(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually very easy to do, objects can communicate between them (it's possible even today).
Or a simpler solution: whenever the user reloads a round, then the reserve ammo counter decreases. It doesn't even have to be 'smart'.