Yeah, honestly marines in NS1 can't bunny hop. They can hop 2 times if they are skilled. Don't complain, and learn how to do it. --- NATURAL SELECTION --- learn how to survive you whiner. I loved bunny hopping as a marine, but I never did it in game as soon as they put the script block on. Oh yah, they could also bunny hop up ramps and what not, but I do that in real life when I walk up stairs and s***. Think about it.
Anyway, I would rather not see marine bunny hopping in NS2, because I would like to see a very realistic NS come to play. But, I do agree that skulks should have skill-based movements. I would like to see the skulk with the same bunny-hopping capability as in NS1. I don't think the engine likes that, so I doubt I will see that. I think that the devs took the easy way out of this problem by giving skulks the ability to leap from the beginning of the game, without having to have a second hive. Which in my opinion, is a smart decision.
leap is 100% of the reason why you drop shotguns or hmg's after 2nd hive finishes. lmg'ing leaping skulks with w1/w2 is probably the hardest thing to do in the game as far as aim is concerned. meaning skulk leap and movement is going to be severely nerfed in ns2 in order to be balanced. which means ns2 will probably have everything move much slower than in ns2. whether or not slower play is good i can't say.
anyway all they need to do (if they have 1 hive leap) is just set a max speed of like 700 for the skulk and you can get to that and not above with leap or you can bhop with celerity and get to 700 or something barely less, like 650. basically you allow skill to factor in but there is no advantage in numbers only a different playstyle.
they could have max speed capped skulks in ns1 as well. also strafe jumping/bhop is not a bug, it's a side effect of air control and a simplified way of computing player movement. it also adds depth. it may be difficult to do but it isn't necessary for high skilled play.
We have gone over this, Unknown Worlds Entertainment is going to come up with a movement mechanic that is better than the one that defined ALL movement mechanics in Natural Selection 1. *roleseyes*
Seriously though, whatever movement mechanics UWE comes up with will suck donkey ###### compared to current half-life movement. It is unlikely that NS2 gameplay with ever compare to NS1 gameplay. The good news is that the flashy graphics and dulled gameplay will hopefully build a much larger playerbase.
<!--quoteo(post=1718272:date=Jul 20 2009, 02:07 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 20 2009, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we really need this overall... i mean it's going to look like everyone is a static clone walking down a hallway in single file and dieing one after another like a bunch of lemmings.
Games where you can't jump do not feel immersive to the endusers. Can make the game feel even more frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exscuse me but Tom Clancy games feel immersive to me. Just because their removing a bug that accelerated the marine down the hallway while looking like, as previous poster put so well, super mario on crack, I don't see how that will ruin the game. I hate that stuff, it looks retarded.
<!--quoteo(post=1720567:date=Aug 4 2009, 02:45 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 4 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously though, whatever movement mechanics UWE comes up with will suck donkey ###### compared to current half-life movement. It is unlikely that NS2 gameplay with ever compare to NS1 gameplay. The good news is that the flashy graphics and dulled gameplay will hopefully build a much larger playerbase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't tell if you're actually being serious when you say you are. You are slamming UWE by saying the first game they made was awesome? That is some quality thinking right there. Do you remember when they made the explicit decision to legitimize bunnyhopping for aliens even though they could have removed it (and did for marines)? I suppose you remember when flying around as a lerk sucked, before the new movement code. And how blink worked in version 1.x. Any praise you direct at the movement mechanics in NS1 are <i>support</i> for the belief that movement will be fun in NS2, not a counter. Try chewing on your thoughts before you swallow.
<!--quoteo(post=1720655:date=Aug 4 2009, 04:58 PM:name=Militarized)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Militarized @ Aug 4 2009, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exscuse me but Tom Clancy games feel immersive to me. Just because their removing a bug that accelerated the marine down the hallway while looking like, as previous poster put so well, super mario on crack, I don't see how that will ruin the game. I hate that stuff, it looks retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To you it may look retarded, but the depth it adds to the game is immense. To remove movement skill would be a <i>tremendous</i> blow to what was a major component of NS1.
So far they claim that they're adding skill based movement into the game. Up to this date, all we've had to go off of is that leap is a hive 1 ability. If that's all UWE can to point to when someone asks about skill based movement then, to but it bluntly, that's not good enough.
NS2 isn't going to feel like NS without the core fundamentals of what made NS1. I believe those core fundamentals are as follows:
Fast, twitch based aim Fast, skill based movement Radically different teams (in terms of playstyle, structure, etc) Emphasis on teamwork
Removing one of those aspects, in my opinion, would really make NS2 feel very different... in a bad way.
<!--quoteo(post=1720684:date=Aug 5 2009, 01:23 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 5 2009, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 isn't going to feel like NS without the core fundamentals of what made NS1. I believe those core fundamentals are as follows:
Fast, twitch based aim Fast, skill based movement Radically different teams (in terms of playstyle, structure, etc) Emphasis on teamwork
Removing one of those aspects, in my opinion, would really make NS2 feel very different... in a bad way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with these. I also enjoy tremendously the skirmish styled map flow, but looks like power grid is going to change that quite a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1720678:date=Aug 4 2009, 04:31 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Aug 4 2009, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't tell if you're actually being serious when you say you are. You are slamming UWE by saying the first game they made was awesome? That is some quality thinking right there. Do you remember when they made the explicit decision to legitimize bunnyhopping for aliens even though they could have removed it (and did for marines)? I suppose you remember when flying around as a lerk sucked, before the new movement code. And how blink worked in version 1.x. Any praise you direct at the movement mechanics in NS1 are <i>support</i> for the belief that movement will be fun in NS2, not a counter. Try chewing on your thoughts before you swallow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't tell if you're actually being serious or you are just a complete moron. Yes, original lerk flight was horrible. So was fade blink. Every attempt at implementing a "revolutionary new" movement mechanic was crap. Current wall jumping is still a complete joke (and in a game you can walk on walls..pathetic). No, I am not going to give them a lot of credit for "not changing what they started with". They were handed great fast-paced movement mechanics, mechanics that have been the entire foundation for numerous games. Don't get me wrong, they established the game concepts for what I consider to be the greatest game I have ever played - Natural Selection. However, I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to forge new movement mechanics. Natural Selection movement mechanics have basically boiled down to simple +movement abilities that move the players forward. Which again, are only awesome because they <b>facilitate half-life air control</b>. Be realistic, there is almost no chance that whatever movement mechanic they implement for NS2 will match what NS1 brought to the experienced players (which I am going to assume anyone posting on this forum is - unless you are ###### horrible).
Skulks should have skill-based movement and we don't want marines jumping around like crazy.
In fact, we want BOTH sides to have skill based movement and we don't want EITHER side jumping around like crazy. We want it very similar to how it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=1720721:date=Aug 5 2009, 10:48 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 5 2009, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do we want marines to have skill based movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To prevent the very much unique mobile battles from turning into passive stationary fights that are seen in 95% of non-DM FPS games nowadays. In general, being mobile means that you've got more options and thus more depth when the mobility is implemented properly.
Of course stationary warfare can have depth too, but it would require huge amount of redesign in NS terms if you ask me.
<!--quoteo(post=1720721:date=Aug 5 2009, 02:48 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 5 2009, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do we want marines to have skill based movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of question is that? Because it makes the game... amazing. The ability to move correctly is a huge factor in someone's ability to play as a marine. Certainly not as much as a skulk, but still EXTREMELY significant. The LAST thing we want are marines moving around like they are playing counter-strike.
<!--quoteo(post=1720721:date=Aug 5 2009, 10:48 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 5 2009, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do we want marines to have skill based movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1720736:date=Aug 5 2009, 10:35 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 5 2009, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would we want to remove skill from the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
depends how you measure skill -
perhaps it is a skill to know when and how to best use your LOUD sprint speed and when not to as a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1720727:date=March 30 1999, 07:30 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ March 30 1999, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What kind of question is that? Because it makes the game... amazing. The ability to move correctly is a huge factor in someone's ability to play as a marine. Certainly not as much as a skulk, but still EXTREMELY significant. The LAST thing we want are marines moving around like they are playing counter-strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->But also consider that a lot of players enjoyed the game without ever using it. Because of that, I don't know if bunnyhopping is as integral a feature as you claim. Even if it is an important part, surely you can see the benefit in streamlining and simplifying the controls for it. Yet, so often the cumbersome controls of bunnyhopping seem to be touted as its greatest feature.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1720743:date=Aug 5 2009, 01:04 PM:name=briktal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (briktal @ Aug 5 2009, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But also consider that a lot of players enjoyed the game without ever using it. Because of that, I don't know if bunnyhopping is as integral a feature as you claim. Even if it is an important part, surely you can see the benefit in streamlining and simplifying the controls for it. Yet, so often the cumbersome controls of bunnyhopping seem to be touted as its greatest feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A lot of people were also able to enjoy the game even though there was a system they didn't use. In addition, I think a lot of people would have enjoyed the game more if there had been a movement system with more reasonable learning curve. A lot of people enjoyed Co only and it doesn't make NS unnecessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->depends how you measure skill -
perhaps it is a skill to know when and how to best use your LOUD sprint speed and when not to as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, you think there should be a skill based movement after all? Great, then we can work it forward to great level of depth and interesting uses.
<!--quoteo(post=1718446:date=Jul 21 2009, 10:31 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 21 2009, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I repeat my argument that its the Kharaas strength to be fast and manouverable , to counter the Marines range superiority. The marines should be relying on keeping the Kharaa out of bite range, and watching out for the ambushes... not 'oh cra ' and bounce out of trouble.
I consider the Marines in NS the same as the marines in Aliens (2), covering fellow marines and preparing for ambushes, using advance and hold techniques in a deliberate organised manner... not clumping up as a group and reacting only when attacked.
The Kharaas worst enemy is a organised Marine assualt, the Marines worst enemy is a break up of that organisation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agreed wholeheartedly with ASnogarD's point of view in both his posts previous to this one.
adding Marine skill movement is about sweeping corners/vents with your crosshairs quickly and efficiently as you walk through hallways and into rooms. Also when not alone. covering your mates. And complementing each other Fields of view.
Adding also that: BunnyHoping is not something you add to a game. Its a freaking GLITCH which when EXPLOITED gives players and advantage over those who CHOOSE to play the game it's meant to be played. Marines are supposed to run at a certain speed chosen and balance by the Dev Team and the Bhop is a simply a cheat that has been glorified and popularized into acceptance as movement skill.
Also if you think that without Bhop going through a hallway will be just about pressing "W" then "You're doing it wrong".
There is so much you can do while walking down a quiet hallways to the front lines. What about creating situational awareness? Take a look at the map to see what going on and where you are needed most. Check how many res towers you have where your teammates are. Take a guess at where the alien RTs are. Communicate with you team on your findings and intentions like current destination and ETA. Check ambush spots as you pass them by. etc etc.
Also in NS2 they are cutting down on the long empty hallways anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1720704:date=Aug 5 2009, 12:51 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 5 2009, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I am not going to give them a lot of credit for "not changing what they started with". They were handed great fast-paced movement mechanics, mechanics that have been the entire foundation for numerous games. Don't get me wrong, they established the game concepts for what I consider to be the greatest game I have ever played - Natural Selection. However, I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to forge new movement mechanics. Natural Selection movement mechanics have basically boiled down to simple +movement abilities that move the players forward. Which again, are only awesome because they <b>facilitate half-life air control</b>. Be realistic, there is almost no chance that whatever movement mechanic they implement for NS2 will match what NS1 brought to the experienced players (which I am going to assume anyone posting on this forum is - unless you are ###### horrible).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think where you go wrong is when you assume that any of the movement mechanics, even default ones, are simple. Think about the complexities of the current lerk. When you push space you get some thrust, both forward and up, but the directionality is modified by your aim and current direction, which can both be different. Then when you hold space, you glide. Well, you glide anyway, but you glide better when you hold space. You can dive to gain speed, etc. I have no idea how you could conceptualize lerk movement as simple. Anyway, I agree with you that the "half-life air control" was the basis for fun movement mechanics, but NS was extensively overhauled over the years of its development and pushed the old engine to its limit--nothing NS did could be called simple, IMO. And why would it be impossible to emulate the air control in a new engine? It's not as if that possibility disappears.
Think about it this way. Over the development time, movement abilities went from frankly whack, although usable (like 1.x blink), to fun, and integrated more and more with the actual gameplay. Even nerfs, like marine bunnyhopping, were reasonable (it was always stupid to see 4 marines spawncamping in the hive 10 seconds after round start, even when I was the one doing it). Why do you assume that they will simply throw out all that thinking and start over with something that isn't fun? I mean, it's possible, but I fail to see evidence that Charlie & co. behave in that manner. Anyway, you seem to hold two ideas that just don't mesh: 1) NS was the most fun ever 2) UWE will mess up NS2 because, um, "be realistic?"
Bunnyhopping in CS was fun, but the game was still boring as hell because the combat is boring. NS was and is addictive because it has intricate, fast-paced combat, and movement is a part of that, and I've yet to see evidence that UWE doesn't understand that. If they didn't, they would have been all over "fixing" the "exploits." Were they?
I think someone summed it up best when they said, paraphrased: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will just make the game duller for the people who can actually play well<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe this is the most true statement made in the thread. I believe the dev team should keep NS2's movement system as close to the NS1 as is possible, and as it fit's to the game style.
I believe that most, if not all people who are opposed to the idea of keeping bunnyhop in the game are/were pub community players (eg voogru). Most of the clanner/vet hate came from such communitys. Remember the vet icon debacle years ago with nearly all pub community server's banning vet icons, simply because they could play better?
There's always been a level of animosity between clanners and pubs, and tbh, the old pub players, their community's long since dead and buried, still harbour the dislike, or in some cases, downright hate towards clanners that they had in their youth.
In the end this will be decided by playtesting, not public opinion.
I believe it is irresponcible for UWE to allow public discussion of this in an uncontrolled manner such as this. I believe that if there is to be a debate on this, it should be in a formal setting. forum members should be allowed to submit post's to moderators, with the 5 best picked from each side of the divide, to debate this in a controlled, official manner, with each side putting arguments to an official thread for and against. The community should then be allowed to vote for the winning side. Whether this would make an impact on NS2's development would be totally up to UWE, but would at least, once and for all, give a genuine full view of the community's opinion on skill based movement in it's totality.
<!--quoteo(post=1720832:date=Aug 5 2009, 06:52 PM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Aug 5 2009, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the end this will be decided by playtesting, not public opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best part of this thread.
And to respond to the rest of your post, I don't believe that anything more can be said about movement mechanics. It's been done to death, and both sides will still find a way to piss the other off. Honestly I would rather wait for more discussion to occur once more gameplay has been revealed. And while individuals may feel the need to share concern over the issue, I'm quite sure that the team at UWE is more than aware of this concern.
<!--quoteo(post=1720727:date=Aug 5 2009, 09:30 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 5 2009, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What kind of question is that? Because it makes the game... amazing. The ability to move correctly is a huge factor in someone's ability to play as a marine. Certainly not as much as a skulk, but still EXTREMELY significant. The LAST thing we want are marines moving around like they are playing counter-strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine skill based movement makes the game amazing? If your saying 'skill based movement = the ability to move correctly' well I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense. However, I do understand that someone wants to be able to move their marine around the way the want it to.
<!--quoteo(post=1720736:date=Aug 5 2009, 10:35 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 5 2009, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would we want to remove skill from the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have two asymmetrical teams here and the one I'm referring to, by design and intention, has ranged superiority and high level technology in comparison to the other. Wouldn't we want our other asymmetrical team, the one that is all about movement and close range combat to have, you know the skill based movement. And having a skill based mechanic for the reasons of having skill based mechanic is circular logic.
Being a good marine on the field in regards to movement should be centered around the 'skill' of being spatially aware and good placement.
<!--quoteo(post=1720855:date=Aug 6 2009, 02:22 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 6 2009, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being a good marine on the field in regards to movement should be centered around the 'skill' of being spatially aware and good placement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And since that's already in the game, we can now move on to what we mean by skillbased movement.
Edit: Read: Other than what is already in the game (both NS1 and NS2, being the games that they are).
The point was I think thats what the skill involved with moving your marine around should be rather then some form of pogo jump backwards away from skulks or spamming crouch when someones trying to devour you. From your vague post I'm not sure whether you understood that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have two asymmetrical teams here and the one I'm referring to, by design and intention, has ranged superiority and high level technology in comparison to the other. Wouldn't we want our other asymmetrical team, the one that is all about movement and close range combat to have, you know the skill based movement. And having a skill based mechanic for the reasons of having skill based mechanic is circular logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The way I see it: The game has universal themes and asymmetry. Both teams use the same resoucres, but with different res models. Both teams have skill based movement and mobility, but the use is different.
<!--quoteo(post=1720890:date=Aug 6 2009, 03:09 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 6 2009, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way I see it: The game has universal themes and asymmetry. Both teams use the same resoucres, but with different res models. Both teams have skill based movement and mobility, but the use is different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've always thought the basic marine was a bit overpowered in close combat 1v1 because he can bounce and strafe almost as well as a skulk. We are talking biped human v quadruped creature that has evolved specifically for close combat
<!--quoteo(post=1720832:date=Jun 9 1881, 06:52 PM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Jun 9 1881, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think someone summed it up best when they said, paraphrased:
I believe this is the most true statement made in the thread. I believe the dev team should keep NS2's movement system as close to the NS1 as is possible, and as it fit's to the game style.
I believe that most, if not all people who are opposed to the idea of keeping bunnyhop in the game are/were pub community players (eg voogru). Most of the clanner/vet hate came from such communitys. Remember the vet icon debacle years ago with nearly all pub community server's banning vet icons, simply because they could play better?
There's always been a level of animosity between clanners and pubs, and tbh, the old pub players, their community's long since dead and buried, still harbour the dislike, or in some cases, downright hate towards clanners that they had in their youth.
In the end this will be decided by playtesting, not public opinion.
I believe it is irresponcible for UWE to allow public discussion of this in an uncontrolled manner such as this. I believe that if there is to be a debate on this, it should be in a formal setting. forum members should be allowed to submit post's to moderators, with the 5 best picked from each side of the divide, to debate this in a controlled, official manner, with each side putting arguments to an official thread for and against. The community should then be allowed to vote for the winning side. Whether this would make an impact on NS2's development would be totally up to UWE, but would at least, once and for all, give a genuine full view of the community's opinion on skill based movement in it's totality.
I believe it's the only way to settle this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->First, the best way to settle this would be pistols at dawn. Second, most the vets were average pub players who just formed up in order to get a vet icon. Third, my take on the "dull" issue is that complicated movement is a bad solution to the problem. I'd hope there would be more effective and relevant ways to make the game more interesting.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1720960:date=Aug 6 2009, 07:25 AM:name=briktal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (briktal @ Aug 6 2009, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->First, the best way to settle this would be pistols at dawn. Second, most the vets were average pub players who just formed up in order to get a vet icon. Third, my take on the "dull" issue is that complicated movement is a bad solution to the problem. I'd hope there would be more effective and relevant ways to make the game more interesting.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I don't think complicated movement is a bad thing. Unintuitive movement, however, is. And this is more difficult for the marine team than the aliens because, well, they're human, so we all have quite a bit of intuition about how humans move, which restricts what you can get away with. (At least until the marines get into GI Joe type suits or something.)
That said, what are some intuitive movement mechanics that can enhance the play of marines? Well, marines have hands as well as feet, and wall/ceiling walking is already implemented for skulks -- would it be difficult for NS2 to include marines having the ability to (slowly) hand-over-hand along certain areas -- perhaps out of reach of snapping skulk jaws down below? What if that was tied to an energy meter of some sort.. stay up too long and you fall. Combine that with being able to perhaps swing-leap from one place to another. Now we have some map-based skill.. if you know the right spots, you can swing from pipe to pipe to get to a resting place.
Okay, but that's map dependant. What about just plain old skills marines can practice. Well, for that perhaps we can look at the Prince of Persia games. Incorporate dives, rolls, leaning, perhaps going prone (and rolling/firing while prone). Timing some of these right could be the difference between a leaping skulk taking your head off and you being able to fill its rear with LMG fire.
So there's some options there. Not sure which, if any, NS2 is going to take, but it shows there certainly isn't a need for marines to be able to "pogo on their balls" as the song goes.
<!--quoteo(post=1720855:date=Aug 6 2009, 01:22 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 6 2009, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being a good marine on the field in regards to movement should be centered around the 'skill' of being spatially aware and good placement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a few points about why movement skill should be included for both sides.
In terms of non head-clicking games, this is basically what the Heavy in TF2 is now and it's an incredibly simple and boring class to play, while the rest of the (good...) classes have some sort of movement skill incorporated into them. The type of combat in NS is conducive to movement skills on both sides (mainly because of the lack of 1shotting or recoil) and I would argue, part of the current balance. It's incredibly easy to aim while stood still in any game, but the downside is youre incredibly easy to hit, surely this is more boring than what we currently have?
Another point is that aliens ambush. That is part of their style. How are you meant to balance combat in spaces where marines are forced to travel through an ambush chokepoint if they can't effectively dodge? It would get incredibly frustrating to be the bait marine each time you had to push chem or wherever.
Finally, if a game is balanced around players for a large part staying stationary while in combat then the skillcap on aiming is going to be considerably lower, I would say perhaps even half of what it is than if you have to shoot while moving, which we can all agree is not a good thing.
Sorry for the rushed post. Its flow probably doesn't make much sense.
I'd like to add another point that I think is important. We all seem to agree that the reliance on movement skills are a great part of what makes the aliens what they are game play-wise. I would propose that this 'feature' would be largely if not completely lost if there is no interplay between the two teams in this field. What is the point of being able to change directions and speed quickly to get to a marine and dodge him if the marine can't respond in kind because he is stationary while firing? The one requires the other to make sense, neh?
I have never really been a fan of Bunny hopping marines based on this simple logic, your a solider your carrying a fair weight of equipment jumping from left to right isn’t going to increase your movement speed. Also I’ve tried it in real life it doesn’t make you faster ¬¬ it just makes you look like a Fairy boy which as a Sci-fi super solider fighting the meanest aliens around I don’t think it quiet fits with the atmosphere. [This is a joke do not Uberflame]
Comments
Anyway, I would rather not see marine bunny hopping in NS2, because I would like to see a very realistic NS come to play. But, I do agree that skulks should have skill-based movements. I would like to see the skulk with the same bunny-hopping capability as in NS1. I don't think the engine likes that, so I doubt I will see that. I think that the devs took the easy way out of this problem by giving skulks the ability to leap from the beginning of the game, without having to have a second hive. Which in my opinion, is a smart decision.
anyway all they need to do (if they have 1 hive leap) is just set a max speed of like 700 for the skulk and you can get to that and not above with leap or you can bhop with celerity and get to 700 or something barely less, like 650. basically you allow skill to factor in but there is no advantage in numbers only a different playstyle.
they could have max speed capped skulks in ns1 as well. also strafe jumping/bhop is not a bug, it's a side effect of air control and a simplified way of computing player movement. it also adds depth. it may be difficult to do but it isn't necessary for high skilled play.
Seriously though, whatever movement mechanics UWE comes up with will suck donkey ###### compared to current half-life movement. It is unlikely that NS2 gameplay with ever compare to NS1 gameplay. The good news is that the flashy graphics and dulled gameplay will hopefully build a much larger playerbase.
Games where you can't jump do not feel immersive to the endusers. Can make the game feel even more frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exscuse me but Tom Clancy games feel immersive to me. Just because their removing a bug that accelerated the marine down the hallway while looking like, as previous poster put so well, super mario on crack, I don't see how that will ruin the game. I hate that stuff, it looks retarded.
I can't tell if you're actually being serious when you say you are. You are slamming UWE by saying the first game they made was awesome? That is some quality thinking right there. Do you remember when they made the explicit decision to legitimize bunnyhopping for aliens even though they could have removed it (and did for marines)? I suppose you remember when flying around as a lerk sucked, before the new movement code. And how blink worked in version 1.x. Any praise you direct at the movement mechanics in NS1 are <i>support</i> for the belief that movement will be fun in NS2, not a counter. Try chewing on your thoughts before you swallow.
To you it may look retarded, but the depth it adds to the game is immense. To remove movement skill would be a <i>tremendous</i> blow to what was a major component of NS1.
So far they claim that they're adding skill based movement into the game. Up to this date, all we've had to go off of is that leap is a hive 1 ability. If that's all UWE can to point to when someone asks about skill based movement then, to but it bluntly, that's not good enough.
NS2 isn't going to feel like NS without the core fundamentals of what made NS1. I believe those core fundamentals are as follows:
Fast, twitch based aim
Fast, skill based movement
Radically different teams (in terms of playstyle, structure, etc)
Emphasis on teamwork
Removing one of those aspects, in my opinion, would really make NS2 feel very different... in a bad way.
Fast, twitch based aim
Fast, skill based movement
Radically different teams (in terms of playstyle, structure, etc)
Emphasis on teamwork
Removing one of those aspects, in my opinion, would really make NS2 feel very different... in a bad way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with these. I also enjoy tremendously the skirmish styled map flow, but looks like power grid is going to change that quite a bit.
I can't tell if you're actually being serious or you are just a complete moron. Yes, original lerk flight was horrible. So was fade blink. Every attempt at implementing a "revolutionary new" movement mechanic was crap. Current wall jumping is still a complete joke (and in a game you can walk on walls..pathetic). No, I am not going to give them a lot of credit for "not changing what they started with". They were handed great fast-paced movement mechanics, mechanics that have been the entire foundation for numerous games. Don't get me wrong, they established the game concepts for what I consider to be the greatest game I have ever played - Natural Selection. However, I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to forge new movement mechanics. Natural Selection movement mechanics have basically boiled down to simple +movement abilities that move the players forward. Which again, are only awesome because they <b>facilitate half-life air control</b>. Be realistic, there is almost no chance that whatever movement mechanic they implement for NS2 will match what NS1 brought to the experienced players (which I am going to assume anyone posting on this forum is - unless you are ###### horrible).
Skulks should have skill-based movement and we don't want marines jumping around like crazy.
In fact, we want BOTH sides to have skill based movement and we don't want EITHER side jumping around like crazy. We want it very similar to how it is now.
To prevent the very much unique mobile battles from turning into passive stationary fights that are seen in 95% of non-DM FPS games nowadays. In general, being mobile means that you've got more options and thus more depth when the mobility is implemented properly.
Of course stationary warfare can have depth too, but it would require huge amount of redesign in NS terms if you ask me.
What kind of question is that?
Because it makes the game... amazing. The ability to move correctly is a huge factor in someone's ability to play as a marine. Certainly not as much as a skulk, but still EXTREMELY significant. The LAST thing we want are marines moving around like they are playing counter-strike.
Why would we want to remove skill from the game?
depends how you measure skill -
perhaps it is a skill to know when and how to best use your LOUD sprint speed and when not to as a marine.
Because it makes the game... amazing. The ability to move correctly is a huge factor in someone's ability to play as a marine. Certainly not as much as a skulk, but still EXTREMELY significant. The LAST thing we want are marines moving around like they are playing counter-strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->But also consider that a lot of players enjoyed the game without ever using it. Because of that, I don't know if bunnyhopping is as integral a feature as you claim. Even if it is an important part, surely you can see the benefit in streamlining and simplifying the controls for it. Yet, so often the cumbersome controls of bunnyhopping seem to be touted as its greatest feature.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
A lot of people were also able to enjoy the game even though there was a system they didn't use. In addition, I think a lot of people would have enjoyed the game more if there had been a movement system with more reasonable learning curve. A lot of people enjoyed Co only and it doesn't make NS unnecessary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->depends how you measure skill -
perhaps it is a skill to know when and how to best use your LOUD sprint speed and when not to as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you think there should be a skill based movement after all? Great, then we can work it forward to great level of depth and interesting uses.
I consider the Marines in NS the same as the marines in Aliens (2), covering fellow marines and preparing for ambushes, using advance and hold techniques in a deliberate organised manner... not clumping up as a group and reacting only when attacked.
The Kharaas worst enemy is a organised Marine assualt, the Marines worst enemy is a break up of that organisation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agreed wholeheartedly with ASnogarD's point of view in both his posts previous to this one.
adding Marine skill movement is about sweeping corners/vents with your crosshairs quickly and efficiently as you walk through hallways and into rooms. Also when not alone. covering your mates. And complementing each other Fields of view.
Adding also that: BunnyHoping is not something you add to a game. Its a freaking GLITCH which when EXPLOITED gives players and advantage over those who CHOOSE to play the game it's meant to be played. Marines are supposed to run at a certain speed chosen and balance by the Dev Team and the Bhop is a simply a cheat that has been glorified and popularized into acceptance as movement skill.
Also if you think that without Bhop going through a hallway will be just about pressing "W" then "You're doing it wrong".
There is so much you can do while walking down a quiet hallways to the front lines. What about creating situational awareness? Take a look at the map to see what going on and where you are needed most. Check how many res towers you have where your teammates are. Take a guess at where the alien RTs are. Communicate with you team on your findings and intentions like current destination and ETA. Check ambush spots as you pass them by. etc etc.
Also in NS2 they are cutting down on the long empty hallways anyways.
I think where you go wrong is when you assume that any of the movement mechanics, even default ones, are simple. Think about the complexities of the current lerk. When you push space you get some thrust, both forward and up, but the directionality is modified by your aim and current direction, which can both be different. Then when you hold space, you glide. Well, you glide anyway, but you glide better when you hold space. You can dive to gain speed, etc. I have no idea how you could conceptualize lerk movement as simple. Anyway, I agree with you that the "half-life air control" was the basis for fun movement mechanics, but NS was extensively overhauled over the years of its development and pushed the old engine to its limit--nothing NS did could be called simple, IMO. And why would it be impossible to emulate the air control in a new engine? It's not as if that possibility disappears.
Think about it this way. Over the development time, movement abilities went from frankly whack, although usable (like 1.x blink), to fun, and integrated more and more with the actual gameplay. Even nerfs, like marine bunnyhopping, were reasonable (it was always stupid to see 4 marines spawncamping in the hive 10 seconds after round start, even when I was the one doing it). Why do you assume that they will simply throw out all that thinking and start over with something that isn't fun? I mean, it's possible, but I fail to see evidence that Charlie & co. behave in that manner. Anyway, you seem to hold two ideas that just don't mesh: 1) NS was the most fun ever 2) UWE will mess up NS2 because, um, "be realistic?"
Bunnyhopping in CS was fun, but the game was still boring as hell because the combat is boring. NS was and is addictive because it has intricate, fast-paced combat, and movement is a part of that, and I've yet to see evidence that UWE doesn't understand that. If they didn't, they would have been all over "fixing" the "exploits." Were they?
I believe this is the most true statement made in the thread. I believe the dev team should keep NS2's movement system as close to the NS1 as is possible, and as it fit's to the game style.
I believe that most, if not all people who are opposed to the idea of keeping bunnyhop in the game are/were pub community players (eg voogru). Most of the clanner/vet hate came from such communitys. Remember the vet icon debacle years ago with nearly all pub community server's banning vet icons, simply because they could play better?
There's always been a level of animosity between clanners and pubs, and tbh, the old pub players, their community's long since dead and buried, still harbour the dislike, or in some cases, downright hate towards clanners that they had in their youth.
In the end this will be decided by playtesting, not public opinion.
I believe it is irresponcible for UWE to allow public discussion of this in an uncontrolled manner such as this. I believe that if there is to be a debate on this, it should be in a formal setting. forum members should be allowed to submit post's to moderators, with the 5 best picked from each side of the divide, to debate this in a controlled, official manner, with each side putting arguments to an official thread for and against. The community should then be allowed to vote for the winning side. Whether this would make an impact on NS2's development would be totally up to UWE, but would at least, once and for all, give a genuine full view of the community's opinion on skill based movement in it's totality.
I believe it's the only way to settle this.
Best part of this thread.
And to respond to the rest of your post, I don't believe that anything more can be said about movement mechanics. It's been done to death, and both sides will still find a way to piss the other off. Honestly I would rather wait for more discussion to occur once more gameplay has been revealed. And while individuals may feel the need to share concern over the issue, I'm quite sure that the team at UWE is more than aware of this concern.
Because it makes the game... amazing. The ability to move correctly is a huge factor in someone's ability to play as a marine. Certainly not as much as a skulk, but still EXTREMELY significant. The LAST thing we want are marines moving around like they are playing counter-strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine skill based movement makes the game amazing? If your saying 'skill based movement = the ability to move correctly' well I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense. However, I do understand that someone wants to be able to move their marine around the way the want it to.
<!--quoteo(post=1720736:date=Aug 5 2009, 10:35 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 5 2009, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would we want to remove skill from the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have two asymmetrical teams here and the one I'm referring to, by design and intention, has ranged superiority and high level technology in comparison to the other. Wouldn't we want our other asymmetrical team, the one that is all about movement and close range combat to have, you know the skill based movement. And having a skill based mechanic for the reasons of having skill based mechanic is circular logic.
Being a good marine on the field in regards to movement should be centered around the 'skill' of being spatially aware and good placement.
edit:grammar
And since that's already in the game, we can now move on to what we mean by skillbased movement.
Edit: Read: Other than what is already in the game (both NS1 and NS2, being the games that they are).
The way I see it: The game has universal themes and asymmetry. Both teams use the same resoucres, but with different res models. Both teams have skill based movement and mobility, but the use is different.
I've always thought the basic marine was a bit overpowered in close combat 1v1 because he can bounce and strafe almost as well as a skulk. We are talking biped human v quadruped creature that has evolved specifically for close combat
I believe this is the most true statement made in the thread. I believe the dev team should keep NS2's movement system as close to the NS1 as is possible, and as it fit's to the game style.
I believe that most, if not all people who are opposed to the idea of keeping bunnyhop in the game are/were pub community players (eg voogru). Most of the clanner/vet hate came from such communitys. Remember the vet icon debacle years ago with nearly all pub community server's banning vet icons, simply because they could play better?
There's always been a level of animosity between clanners and pubs, and tbh, the old pub players, their community's long since dead and buried, still harbour the dislike, or in some cases, downright hate towards clanners that they had in their youth.
In the end this will be decided by playtesting, not public opinion.
I believe it is irresponcible for UWE to allow public discussion of this in an uncontrolled manner such as this. I believe that if there is to be a debate on this, it should be in a formal setting. forum members should be allowed to submit post's to moderators, with the 5 best picked from each side of the divide, to debate this in a controlled, official manner, with each side putting arguments to an official thread for and against. The community should then be allowed to vote for the winning side. Whether this would make an impact on NS2's development would be totally up to UWE, but would at least, once and for all, give a genuine full view of the community's opinion on skill based movement in it's totality.
I believe it's the only way to settle this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->First, the best way to settle this would be pistols at dawn. Second, most the vets were average pub players who just formed up in order to get a vet icon. Third, my take on the "dull" issue is that complicated movement is a bad solution to the problem. I'd hope there would be more effective and relevant ways to make the game more interesting.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
~~Sickle~~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I don't think complicated movement is a bad thing. Unintuitive movement, however, is. And this is more difficult for the marine team than the aliens because, well, they're human, so we all have quite a bit of intuition about how humans move, which restricts what you can get away with. (At least until the marines get into GI Joe type suits or something.)
That said, what are some intuitive movement mechanics that can enhance the play of marines? Well, marines have hands as well as feet, and wall/ceiling walking is already implemented for skulks -- would it be difficult for NS2 to include marines having the ability to (slowly) hand-over-hand along certain areas -- perhaps out of reach of snapping skulk jaws down below? What if that was tied to an energy meter of some sort.. stay up too long and you fall. Combine that with being able to perhaps swing-leap from one place to another. Now we have some map-based skill.. if you know the right spots, you can swing from pipe to pipe to get to a resting place.
Okay, but that's map dependant. What about just plain old skills marines can practice. Well, for that perhaps we can look at the Prince of Persia games. Incorporate dives, rolls, leaning, perhaps going prone (and rolling/firing while prone). Timing some of these right could be the difference between a leaping skulk taking your head off and you being able to fill its rear with LMG fire.
So there's some options there. Not sure which, if any, NS2 is going to take, but it shows there certainly isn't a need for marines to be able to "pogo on their balls" as the song goes.
I have a few points about why movement skill should be included for both sides.
In terms of non head-clicking games, this is basically what the Heavy in TF2 is now and it's an incredibly simple and boring class to play, while the rest of the (good...) classes have some sort of movement skill incorporated into them. The type of combat in NS is conducive to movement skills on both sides (mainly because of the lack of 1shotting or recoil) and I would argue, part of the current balance. It's incredibly easy to aim while stood still in any game, but the downside is youre incredibly easy to hit, surely this is more boring than what we currently have?
Another point is that aliens ambush. That is part of their style. How are you meant to balance combat in spaces where marines are forced to travel through an ambush chokepoint if they can't effectively dodge? It would get incredibly frustrating to be the bait marine each time you had to push chem or wherever.
Finally, if a game is balanced around players for a large part staying stationary while in combat then the skillcap on aiming is going to be considerably lower, I would say perhaps even half of what it is than if you have to shoot while moving, which we can all agree is not a good thing.
Sorry for the rushed post. Its flow probably doesn't make much sense.