As a player who could/can strafe-jump, one/two step, incline hop, whatever you want to call it, I must say it made the marine/alien side more fun (read: not better). The ability to differentiate yourself as a player from the rest of a group was my reward. I wasn't just another marine (or alien).
And for anyone saying it's "not skill", I must ask is a hacker skilled? (By hacker I mean someone who actually hacks through --guess what-- exploits in the code or system. The people who steal identities/credit cards or infiltrate company databases).
---
In my opinion, I would prefer not to see the game go the sprint key route. It reminds me too much of CoD, and I'm not too interested in playing a game where I'm running around with my squad peeking around corners and moving in formations. Since we're not all specially trained killers, it tends to end up with the weak link getting the group killed. I liked NS for its strategy not squad tactics (battle tactics however was erotic). Turning it into The Lumbering Iron Men vs. The Beastformers would make me a sad person (ignoring that I've grossly oversimplified this for comedic effect).
i) Those that don't find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking ii) Those that _do_ find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking
So we're stuck basically with what amounts to a difference in taste and thus I don't think its overly productive to debate the "correctness" of either viewpoint but rather what can be done as a compromise to keep as many players as possible "happy".
My humble suggestion:
Find a technology to give to the marines - at a resource cost - to enhance there movement in a way that "makes sense". So for the players that like more movement options as a marine perhaps something like a "jetpack" would do. I know I - being a member of group ii) - would be fine with this as it would "make sense" and fit in with the overall atmosphere of the game.
Or perhaps we should look closer at the "complaint" of group i). Is it really that they enjoy bouncing around as a means of defense or just a question of it being a viable defensive option when the s*** hits the fan? What I'm getting at here is that perhaps the answer isn't to "increase movement options" but to give another viable form of defense: e.g. a technology like a shield of sorts ala "dune" to push aliens away for a time on activation (naturally this would have to undergo game balancing).
<!--quoteo(post=1723070:date=Aug 15 2009, 08:02 PM:name=FilthyLarry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FilthyLarry @ Aug 15 2009, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two kinds of people in this world:
i) Those that don't find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking ii) Those that _do_ find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> iii) Those that find Marines jumping around (alot) bad for gameplay.
I don't find it immersion breaking (I play multiplayer games for gameplay, not immersion), but if anything, it has a negative impact on gameplay. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of good solutions to prevent this. I guess the best one would be to temporarily slow down movement on landing. (I personally would think it would be interesting to remove jumping altogether, but nobody would stand for it, heh -- and yes, I love jumping in multiplayer games) That said, if unsure, stick with how it was in NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Find a technology to give to the marines - at a resource cost - to enhance there movement in a way that "makes sense". So for the players that like more movement options as a marine perhaps something like a "jetpack" would do. I know I - being a member of group ii) - would be fine with this as it would "make sense" and fit in with the overall atmosphere of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Stimpacks! ;) Take an HP hit to move a bit faster for a short period of time.
This reminds me of when TF2 was released and how so many TF/C old schoolers were talking about the skill cap being ruined because of bhop and conc jumping getting removed
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In terms of non head-clicking games, this is basically what the Heavy in TF2 is now and it's an incredibly simple and boring class to play, while the rest of the (good...) classes have some sort of movement skill incorporated into them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The heavy is great in pub, though 6v6 it is a waste of time. Actually aren't they looking into how to make it more pug/scrim viable?
What do you mean by good classes? Really the only movement skill classes are sollys (rocket jumping) demo (sticky jumping) and scout (dbl jump). 3/9 is not really the rest of the classes. And just because those 3 are the main 6v6 offensive classes doesn't mean the others aren't good period.
Also in regards to your second point, I think small choke points aliens should have a distinct advantage whereas in long open corridors/spaces the marines would be at a distinct advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1723087:date=Aug 16 2009, 06:31 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 16 2009, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also in regards to your second point, I think small choke points aliens should have a distinct advantage whereas in long open corridors/spaces the marines would be at a distinct advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No movement system is going to change that. However the movement system removes situations where you know exactly where the enemy is, but can't still pick a fight because of the chokepoint. Nobody has to go first just to get himself killed to draw the skulk out.
I think it's a little similar as the counter system in NS: Instead of having a hard counter to marines by ambushing, the movement options turn it into a soft counter.
<!--quoteo(post=1723098:date=Aug 16 2009, 08:28 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 16 2009, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No movement system is going to change that? The whole situation is dependent on what movement system is implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, a similar system as the original NS isn't going to change that. The marine is still in very much of a disadvantage in cramped spaces.
<!--quoteo(post=1723087:date=Aug 16 2009, 12:31 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 16 2009, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This reminds me of when TF2 was released and how so many TF/C old schoolers were talking about the skill cap being ruined because of bhop and conc jumping getting removed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually you can bhop in tf2
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you think that without Bhop going through a hallway will be just about pressing "W" then "You're doing it wrong".
There is so much you can do while walking down a quiet hallways to the front lines. What about creating situational awareness? Take a look at the map to see what going on and where you are needed most. Check how many res towers you have where your teammates are. Take a guess at where the alien RTs are. Communicate with you team on your findings and intentions like current destination and ETA. Check ambush spots as you pass them by. etc etc.
Also in NS2 they are cutting down on the long empty hallways anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah i guess with all that strafe jumping I could never do any of that!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping in CS was fun, but the game was still boring as hell because the combat is boring. NS was and is addictive because it has intricate, fast-paced combat, and movement is a part of that, and I've yet to see evidence that UWE doesn't understand that. If they didn't, they would have been all over "fixing" the "exploits." Were they?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like where they are planning on making skulks slower.
Its hardly comparable to TFC, and you missed my point entirely.
also, just to prove bhop is negligible in tf2, may I point out an old TF2 patch from 07:
Fixed problems with 3d sound in surround mode for some Audigy X-Fi users Medigun no longer continues to heal enemy Spies who have lost their disguise Fixed a weapon switching exploit that allowed Snipers to fire slightly faster than intended Tweaked shadow filtering to make shadows look more smooth Fixed Server Plugin "StartQueryCVarValue" falsely returning CvarNotFound for cvars that did exist Fixed crash in HTML control in IE7 on page load, most often seen in the server Message of the Day Fixed small memory leak in HTML controller Made HTML output more compatible with new XHTML document styles Fixed physics crash involving bad ragdoll friction values Fixed detail sprite fading Added anti-bunny hopping code
I still see no response what I wrote of how the concept of having one mobile class or team is sort of pointless if the other team is immobile. Really, it makes no sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1723074:date=Aug 15 2009, 10:30 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Aug 15 2009, 10:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stimpacks! ;) Take an HP hit to move a bit faster for a short period of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome, problem solved :) Right.. meeting adjourned forever.
<!--quoteo(post=1723139:date=Aug 16 2009, 09:56 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 16 2009, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still see no response what I wrote of how the concept of having one mobile class or team is sort of pointless if the other team is immobile. Really, it makes no sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think the word "immobile" is a bit extreme here, but I can see where you are coming from. However, the whole premise I feel of NS - one of the biggest "draws" - is that we have two very different teams and thus different strategies to accomplish goals. Personally I think if anything it would be better to increase the "movement gap" between the two to reinforce this concept:
In general Aliens should be lightning quick to _avoid gunfire_ and close the distance to bite range; Marines should be slow and methodical using superior firepower to kill at a distance. However to "mix" things up a bit I think its useful to have things like stimpacks/jetpacks for Marines and life forms like the Onos to give the alien side something different to work with also.
I don't think the Kharaa's superior movement is "wasted" on slow moving targets because as I've stated the slow moving targets have weapons that hit hard and at range. If Marines only had melee weapons then I would agree with you completely.
One thing I'd also like to add is that if a player becomes frustrated as a Marine due to lack of movement options then they should simply play as Kharaa.
Too many people here forget that marine strafejumping hasn't been an integral part of NS forever. In earlier versions nobody did it and yet people didn't feel "immobile". Just because you can do it right now doesn't mean that you will be able to do it in NS2, even if they keep it who knows how the new engine behaves so you still might end up learning it from anew.
<!--quoteo(post=1723139:date=Aug 17 2009, 12:56 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 17 2009, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still see no response what I wrote of how the concept of having one mobile class or team is sort of pointless if the other team is immobile. Really, it makes no sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slight hyperbole there. My response is that it is two asymmetrical teams, fast-movement-melee based kharaa vs bipedal/human with superior fire power/weapons/technology.
But my point was always that the flavour of having a highly mobile and agile class/team is lost when there is no actual intracting with the opposing team except for trying to throw of their aim - something which is less and less viable the higher the level of play. It's simply bad game design, touting a movement based team when the only movement made is running around the map and towards the other team. Melee fps really requires a great movement mini game.
<!--quoteo(post=1723154:date=Aug 16 2009, 12:03 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 16 2009, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But my point was always that the flavour of having a highly mobile and agile class/team is lost when there is no actual intracting with the opposing team except for trying to throw of their aim - something which is less and less viable the higher the level of play. It's simply bad game design, touting a movement based team when the only movement made is running around the map and towards the other team. Melee fps really requires a great movement mini game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not bad game design. You just have a different opinion about what you want, almost as if you would like a completely different game. Maybe Aliens vs Aliens?
<!--quoteo(post=1723154:date=Aug 17 2009, 03:03 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 17 2009, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But my point was always that the flavour of having a highly mobile and agile class/team is lost when there is no actual intracting with the opposing team except for trying to throw of their aim - something which is less and less viable the higher the level of play. It's simply bad game design, touting a movement based team when the only movement made is running around the map and towards the other team. Melee fps really requires a great movement mini game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess we are going to have to a agree that we disagree. Too me it sounds like your not actually describing NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1723147:date=Aug 16 2009, 08:34 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Aug 16 2009, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too many people here forget that marine strafejumping hasn't been an integral part of NS forever. In earlier versions nobody did it and yet people didn't feel "immobile". Just because you can do it right now doesn't mean that you will be able to do it in NS2, even if they keep it who knows how the new engine behaves so you still might end up learning it from anew.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, people have always strafe jumped in NS. People were strafe jumping (in all directions) well before NS even came out. First, it was full out bhop..then it was HUGE knockback strafe jumps. Then it was slightly less knockback. Then it was even less knockback. Now, we actually have the lowest marine movement NS has ever seen.
However, it is still WAY faster than the original concept of making marines piss backwards. This is what worries me, the dev team is notoriously bad at inventing their own movement mechanics. It worked out well in the end, ironically, because people were FORCE to move backwards CORRECTLY...by strafe jumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1723235:date=Aug 17 2009, 06:12 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 17 2009, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess we are going to have to a agree that we disagree. Too me it sounds like your not actually describing NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looks like we are destined to disagree. To me he's describing the lifeblood of NS' tactical level play.
<!--quoteo(post=1723154:date=Aug 16 2009, 09:03 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 16 2009, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But my point was always that the flavour of having a highly mobile and agile class/team is lost when there is no actual intracting with the opposing team except for trying to throw of their aim - something which is less and less viable the higher the level of play. It's simply bad game design, touting a movement based team when the only movement made is running around the map and towards the other team. Melee fps really requires a great movement mini game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1723235:date=Aug 16 2009, 10:12 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 16 2009, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess we are going to have to a agree that we disagree. Too me it sounds like your not actually describing NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Steppin, you seem to be describing what NS is in CONCEPT, not what NS ACTUALLY is. (Its actually a lot better than its concept)
The marine vs. alien movement mini game is <b>profound</b> in NS.
If both alien bhop is removed (it obviously is) AND marine movement is castrated then there is literally no hope for competitive NS. Marines capitalize on the range advantage significantly more at higher levels of play because their increased aiming abilities. This skill dependent mechanic is careful balanced in NS for 2 reasons:
1) Alien movement is incredibly skillful and continues to remain skillful even at top levels of play
This obviously helps because better aliens are harder to hit. This somewhat compensating for the aim increase of skilled marines. It is worth noting, that bhopping (the hardest-to-learn-best-top-level movement mechanic ever seen in a video game) STILL doesn't compensate for the increased aiming abilities of skilled marines. Whatever movement mechanic is implemented in NS2 will doubtfully come even close.
2) Marine movement is incredibly skillful and continues to remain skillful even at top levels of play
This allows for close-combat INSIDE the conceptual buffer after an alien bites a marine. At this range, BOTH marine and alien movement mechanics are extremely important. If marines cannot avoid bites by hopping around then they are dead as soon as an alien manages to get in range. If this is the case, in order to maintain balanced, marine weapons must be stronger...again...breaking the balance at high levels of play. This creates both boring gameplay and imbalanced gameplay.
The concept of melee-vs-ranged combat is not unique to NS. However, NS (actually half-like physics) made the melee-vs-ranged combat awesome even after people played the game for 3 years, allowing the community the sustain past the lifespan of a typical FPS. Hopefully the dev team can respect that both alien AND marine MOVEMENT is a HUGE part of what makes NS..."NS". Natural Selection is a WHOLE LOT MORE than just the original alien vs marine RTS/FPS conceptual gimmick.
<!--quoteo(post=1723261:date=Aug 17 2009, 03:29 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 17 2009, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And no I don't think competitive NS would crumble to pieces without marines jumping around like rabbits. Thats a gross oversimplification.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure about that? If you're not 100% you need to stop and rethink. Battlefield 2 had a good, growing competitive community that was destroyed by one (arguably) small change to the movement mechanics. It's like someone learning chess for 4 years then suddenly changing the way the pieces are allowed move. It would ruin the game and decimate the competitive community.
The movement minigame is an intricate and delicate one, one that has evolved through years of NS, one i would love to see preserved in NS2.
But that being said, we are all going to have to relearn NS when NS2 comes out, so maybe switching it up a little couldn't hurt.
First off... my opinion is that in NO way should marines loose any movement abilities they possess now... and no anti-bunnyhop ###### (that would just do wonders to piss off the people playing NS right now). If anything... marines should have more movement abilities such as a means for climbing (instead of jumping) on certain areas of the map (besides ladders), and a way to sprint and tumble and dive into and out of a room and a way to lean and shoot around corners.
Lets put it this way... back when i played NS in the early years, i would just stand there and let a fade or onos kill me on sight... i played a lot of CO and didn't even care to move out of there way (it felt futile)... later on i found that by strategic backward movement and rotated-strafe around an enemy that i could stay alive long enough to literally pistol/shotgun an onos. Some of the more skilled onos players out there now have adapted by jerking their controls so when you see them attack, they flicker in 45-90 degree increments when turning to stop/devour/gore you... so my tactics don't work all the time, but i'd hate the game to force me to play as dead meat with a weak ass smg... walking around like a lemming!
<!--quoteo(post=1723284:date=Aug 17 2009, 09:07 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Aug 17 2009, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll put my 2 cents in.
First off... my opinion is that in NO way should marines loose any movement abilities they possess now... and no anti-bunnyhop ###### (that would just do wonders to piss off the people playing NS right now). If anything... marines should have more movement abilities such as a means for climbing (instead of jumping) on certain areas of the map (besides ladders), and a way to sprint and tumble and dive into and out of a room and a way to lean and shoot around corners.
Lets put it this way... back when i played NS in the early years, i would just stand there and let a fade or onos kill me on sight... i played a lot of CO and didn't even care to move out of there way (it felt futile)... later on i found that by strategic backward movement and rotated-strafe around an enemy that i could stay alive long enough to literally pistol/shotgun an onos. Some of the more skilled onos players out there now have adapted by jerking their controls so when you see them attack, they flicker in 45-90 degree increments when turning to stop/devour/gore you... so my tactics don't work all the time, but i'd hate the game to force me to play as dead meat with a weak ass smg... walking around like a lemming!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and in the same way u might discover a new cooler way to avoid gettin stomped by an onos. like any game...play it long enough and u find out ways to avoid certain situations.
<!--quoteo(post=1723282:date=Aug 17 2009, 08:44 PM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Aug 17 2009, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you sure about that? If you're not 100% you need to stop and rethink. Battlefield 2 had a good, growing competitive community that was destroyed by one (arguably) small change to the movement mechanics. It's like someone learning chess for 4 years then suddenly changing the way the pieces are allowed move. It would ruin the game and decimate the competitive community.
The movement minigame is an intricate and delicate one, one that has evolved through years of NS, one i would love to see preserved in NS2.
But that being said, we are all going to have to relearn NS when NS2 comes out, so maybe switching it up a little couldn't hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've played multiple games reasonably competitively where the have borked the movement from time to time and it didn't kill the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1723335:date=Aug 17 2009, 05:26 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 17 2009, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played multiple games reasonably competitively where the have borked the movement from time to time and it didn't kill the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I agree with steppin' (hands steppin' a +1) I have a question for all of the Bunnyhopping marine fans. What's the point in, the developers creating any form of atmosphere, realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams when players are arguing And complaining about having and keeping Balla-riners lets face it from a realism point of view. A full clad Soilder isn't going to jump around to avoid getting attacked. If anything they might Dive ( a concept I would be a fan off), but realistically it wouldn't and shouldn't happen. It was only plausable due to the old and rather dated Halflife 1 engine. People say this devloped from a need or requirement to combat skilled players. But all it ever did was promote Rambos and anti team based gaming since other players would oftern block your ridiculous bouncing path. Personally I don't think natural selection 2 needs such a dated method for combat anymore. It's not what the games about. It's a Teamwork based game. With smaller more compact levels and more players possible per server this means the gameplay is going to be forced even more towards group and team based play and tactics. Suddenly being a Balla-riner isn't so important. Skulks are going to have there own skilled based movement from the start with Leap and such, Bunny hopping is just not required. And for those that say it makes the game intersting I ask you. With what we know about the game and all is possibilities is it not exciting and entertaining enough that you don't need to jump around in a manner that defies nature and destroys all the atmosphere and realism the developers have spent so long trying to create?
Comments
And for anyone saying it's "not skill", I must ask is a hacker skilled? (By hacker I mean someone who actually hacks through --guess what-- exploits in the code or system. The people who steal identities/credit cards or infiltrate company databases).
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In my opinion, I would prefer not to see the game go the sprint key route. It reminds me too much of CoD, and I'm not too interested in playing a game where I'm running around with my squad peeking around corners and moving in formations. Since we're not all specially trained killers, it tends to end up with the weak link getting the group killed. I liked NS for its strategy not squad tactics (battle tactics however was erotic). Turning it into The Lumbering Iron Men vs. The Beastformers would make me a sad person (ignoring that I've grossly oversimplified this for comedic effect).
i) Those that don't find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking
ii) Those that _do_ find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking
So we're stuck basically with what amounts to a difference in taste and thus I don't think its overly productive to debate the "correctness" of either viewpoint but rather what can be done as a compromise to keep as many players as possible "happy".
My humble suggestion:
Find a technology to give to the marines - at a resource cost - to enhance there movement in a way that "makes sense". So for the players that like more movement options as a marine perhaps something like a "jetpack" would do. I know I - being a member of group ii) - would be fine with this as it would "make sense" and fit in with the overall atmosphere of the game.
Or perhaps we should look closer at the "complaint" of group i). Is it really that they enjoy bouncing around as a means of defense or just a question of it being a viable defensive option when the s*** hits the fan? What I'm getting at here is that perhaps the answer isn't to "increase movement options" but to give another viable form of defense: e.g. a technology like a shield of sorts ala "dune" to push aliens away for a time on activation (naturally this would have to undergo game balancing).
i) Those that don't find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking
ii) Those that _do_ find Marines jumping around (alot) odd and immersion breaking<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
iii) Those that find Marines jumping around (alot) bad for gameplay.
I don't find it immersion breaking (I play multiplayer games for gameplay, not immersion), but if anything, it has a negative impact on gameplay. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of good solutions to prevent this. I guess the best one would be to temporarily slow down movement on landing. (I personally would think it would be interesting to remove jumping altogether, but nobody would stand for it, heh -- and yes, I love jumping in multiplayer games) That said, if unsure, stick with how it was in NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Find a technology to give to the marines - at a resource cost - to enhance there movement in a way that "makes sense". So for the players that like more movement options as a marine perhaps something like a "jetpack" would do. I know I - being a member of group ii) - would be fine with this as it would "make sense" and fit in with the overall atmosphere of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Stimpacks! ;) Take an HP hit to move a bit faster for a short period of time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In terms of non head-clicking games, this is basically what the Heavy in TF2 is now and it's an incredibly simple and boring class to play, while the rest of the (good...) classes have some sort of movement skill incorporated into them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The heavy is great in pub, though 6v6 it is a waste of time. Actually aren't they looking into how to make it more pug/scrim viable?
What do you mean by good classes? Really the only movement skill classes are sollys (rocket jumping) demo (sticky jumping) and scout (dbl jump). 3/9 is not really the rest of the classes. And just because those 3 are the main 6v6 offensive classes doesn't mean the others aren't good period.
Also in regards to your second point, I think small choke points aliens should have a distinct advantage whereas in long open corridors/spaces the marines would be at a distinct advantage.
edit:fail quoting
No movement system is going to change that. However the movement system removes situations where you know exactly where the enemy is, but can't still pick a fight because of the chokepoint. Nobody has to go first just to get himself killed to draw the skulk out.
I think it's a little similar as the counter system in NS: Instead of having a hard counter to marines by ambushing, the movement options turn it into a soft counter.
Well, a similar system as the original NS isn't going to change that. The marine is still in very much of a disadvantage in cramped spaces.
actually you can bhop in tf2
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you think that without Bhop going through a hallway will be just about pressing "W" then "You're doing it wrong".
There is so much you can do while walking down a quiet hallways to the front lines. What about creating situational awareness? Take a look at the map to see what going on and where you are needed most. Check how many res towers you have where your teammates are. Take a guess at where the alien RTs are. Communicate with you team on your findings and intentions like current destination and ETA. Check ambush spots as you pass them by. etc etc.
Also in NS2 they are cutting down on the long empty hallways anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah i guess with all that strafe jumping I could never do any of that!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping in CS was fun, but the game was still boring as hell because the combat is boring. NS was and is addictive because it has intricate, fast-paced combat, and movement is a part of that, and I've yet to see evidence that UWE doesn't understand that. If they didn't, they would have been all over "fixing" the "exploits." Were they?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like where they are planning on making skulks slower.
also, just to prove bhop is negligible in tf2, may I point out an old TF2 patch from 07:
Fixed problems with 3d sound in surround mode for some Audigy X-Fi users
Medigun no longer continues to heal enemy Spies who have lost their disguise
Fixed a weapon switching exploit that allowed Snipers to fire slightly faster than intended
Tweaked shadow filtering to make shadows look more smooth
Fixed Server Plugin "StartQueryCVarValue" falsely returning CvarNotFound for cvars that did exist
Fixed crash in HTML control in IE7 on page load, most often seen in the server Message of the Day
Fixed small memory leak in HTML controller
Made HTML output more compatible with new XHTML document styles
Fixed physics crash involving bad ragdoll friction values
Fixed detail sprite fading
Added anti-bunny hopping code
Awesome, problem solved :) Right.. meeting adjourned forever.
Well, I think the word "immobile" is a bit extreme here, but I can see where you are coming from. However, the whole premise I feel of NS - one of the biggest "draws" - is that we have two very different teams and thus different strategies to accomplish goals. Personally I think if anything it would be better to increase the "movement gap" between the two to reinforce this concept:
In general Aliens should be lightning quick to _avoid gunfire_ and close the distance to bite range; Marines should be slow and methodical using superior firepower to kill at a distance. However to "mix" things up a bit I think its useful to have things like stimpacks/jetpacks for Marines and life forms like the Onos to give the alien side something different to work with also.
I don't think the Kharaa's superior movement is "wasted" on slow moving targets because as I've stated the slow moving targets have weapons that hit hard and at range. If Marines only had melee weapons then I would agree with you completely.
One thing I'd also like to add is that if a player becomes frustrated as a Marine due to lack of movement options then they should simply play as Kharaa.
Just because you can do it right now doesn't mean that you will be able to do it in NS2, even if they keep it who knows how the new engine behaves so you still might end up learning it from anew.
Slight hyperbole there. My response is that it is two asymmetrical teams, fast-movement-melee based kharaa vs bipedal/human with superior fire power/weapons/technology.
It's not bad game design. You just have a different opinion about what you want, almost as if you would like a completely different game. Maybe Aliens vs Aliens?
I guess we are going to have to a agree that we disagree. Too me it sounds like your not actually describing NS.
Just because you can do it right now doesn't mean that you will be able to do it in NS2, even if they keep it who knows how the new engine behaves so you still might end up learning it from anew.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, people have always strafe jumped in NS. People were strafe jumping (in all directions) well before NS even came out. First, it was full out bhop..then it was HUGE knockback strafe jumps. Then it was slightly less knockback. Then it was even less knockback. Now, we actually have the lowest marine movement NS has ever seen.
However, it is still WAY faster than the original concept of making marines piss backwards. This is what worries me, the dev team is notoriously bad at inventing their own movement mechanics. It worked out well in the end, ironically, because people were FORCE to move backwards CORRECTLY...by strafe jumping.
Looks like we are destined to disagree. To me he's describing the lifeblood of NS' tactical level play.
<!--quoteo(post=1723235:date=Aug 16 2009, 10:12 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 16 2009, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess we are going to have to a agree that we disagree. Too me it sounds like your not actually describing NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Steppin, you seem to be describing what NS is in CONCEPT, not what NS ACTUALLY is. (Its actually a lot better than its concept)
The marine vs. alien movement mini game is <b>profound</b> in NS.
If both alien bhop is removed (it obviously is) AND marine movement is castrated then there is literally no hope for competitive NS. Marines capitalize on the range advantage significantly more at higher levels of play because their increased aiming abilities. This skill dependent mechanic is careful balanced in NS for 2 reasons:
1) Alien movement is incredibly skillful and continues to remain skillful even at top levels of play
This obviously helps because better aliens are harder to hit. This somewhat compensating for the aim increase of skilled marines. It is worth noting, that bhopping (the hardest-to-learn-best-top-level movement mechanic ever seen in a video game) STILL doesn't compensate for the increased aiming abilities of skilled marines. Whatever movement mechanic is implemented in NS2 will doubtfully come even close.
2) Marine movement is incredibly skillful and continues to remain skillful even at top levels of play
This allows for close-combat INSIDE the conceptual buffer after an alien bites a marine. At this range, BOTH marine and alien movement mechanics are extremely important. If marines cannot avoid bites by hopping around then they are dead as soon as an alien manages to get in range. If this is the case, in order to maintain balanced, marine weapons must be stronger...again...breaking the balance at high levels of play. This creates both boring gameplay and imbalanced gameplay.
The concept of melee-vs-ranged combat is not unique to NS. However, NS (actually half-like physics) made the melee-vs-ranged combat awesome even after people played the game for 3 years, allowing the community the sustain past the lifespan of a typical FPS. Hopefully the dev team can respect that both alien AND marine MOVEMENT is a HUGE part of what makes NS..."NS". Natural Selection is a WHOLE LOT MORE than just the original alien vs marine RTS/FPS conceptual gimmick.
And no I don't think competitive NS would crumble to pieces without marines jumping around like rabbits. Thats a gross oversimplification.
Are you sure about that? If you're not 100% you need to stop and rethink. Battlefield 2 had a good, growing competitive community that was destroyed by one (arguably) small change to the movement mechanics.
It's like someone learning chess for 4 years then suddenly changing the way the pieces are allowed move. It would ruin the game and decimate the competitive community.
The movement minigame is an intricate and delicate one, one that has evolved through years of NS, one i would love to see preserved in NS2.
But that being said, we are all going to have to relearn NS when NS2 comes out, so maybe switching it up a little couldn't hurt.
First off... my opinion is that in NO way should marines loose any movement abilities they possess now... and no anti-bunnyhop ###### (that would just do wonders to piss off the people playing NS right now). If anything... marines should have more movement abilities such as a means for climbing (instead of jumping) on certain areas of the map (besides ladders), and a way to sprint and tumble and dive into and out of a room and a way to lean and shoot around corners.
Lets put it this way... back when i played NS in the early years, i would just stand there and let a fade or onos kill me on sight... i played a lot of CO and didn't even care to move out of there way (it felt futile)... later on i found that by strategic backward movement and rotated-strafe around an enemy that i could stay alive long enough to literally pistol/shotgun an onos. Some of the more skilled onos players out there now have adapted by jerking their controls so when you see them attack, they flicker in 45-90 degree increments when turning to stop/devour/gore you... so my tactics don't work all the time, but i'd hate the game to force me to play as dead meat with a weak ass smg... walking around like a lemming!
First off... my opinion is that in NO way should marines loose any movement abilities they possess now... and no anti-bunnyhop ###### (that would just do wonders to piss off the people playing NS right now). If anything... marines should have more movement abilities such as a means for climbing (instead of jumping) on certain areas of the map (besides ladders), and a way to sprint and tumble and dive into and out of a room and a way to lean and shoot around corners.
Lets put it this way... back when i played NS in the early years, i would just stand there and let a fade or onos kill me on sight... i played a lot of CO and didn't even care to move out of there way (it felt futile)... later on i found that by strategic backward movement and rotated-strafe around an enemy that i could stay alive long enough to literally pistol/shotgun an onos. Some of the more skilled onos players out there now have adapted by jerking their controls so when you see them attack, they flicker in 45-90 degree increments when turning to stop/devour/gore you... so my tactics don't work all the time, but i'd hate the game to force me to play as dead meat with a weak ass smg... walking around like a lemming!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and in the same way u might discover a new cooler way to avoid gettin stomped by an onos. like any game...play it long enough and u find out ways to avoid certain situations.
It's like someone learning chess for 4 years then suddenly changing the way the pieces are allowed move. It would ruin the game and decimate the competitive community.
The movement minigame is an intricate and delicate one, one that has evolved through years of NS, one i would love to see preserved in NS2.
But that being said, we are all going to have to relearn NS when NS2 comes out, so maybe switching it up a little couldn't hurt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played multiple games reasonably competitively where the have borked the movement from time to time and it didn't kill the community.
Examples, please.
edit: rocket jumping in tf2 has been borked as of late and pugs didn't die (I think its fixed as of today though)
I have a question for all of the Bunnyhopping marine fans.
What's the point in, the developers creating any form of atmosphere, realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams when players are arguing And complaining about having and keeping Balla-riners lets face it from a realism point of view. A full clad Soilder isn't going to jump around to avoid getting attacked. If anything they might Dive ( a concept I would be a fan off), but realistically it wouldn't and shouldn't happen. It was only plausable due to the old and rather dated Halflife 1 engine.
People say this devloped from a need or requirement to combat skilled players. But all it ever did was promote Rambos and anti team based gaming since other players would oftern block your ridiculous bouncing path. Personally I don't think natural selection 2 needs such a dated method for combat anymore. It's not what the games about. It's a Teamwork based game. With smaller more compact levels and more players possible per server this means the gameplay is going to be forced even more towards group and team based play and tactics. Suddenly being a Balla-riner isn't so important. Skulks are going to have there own skilled based movement from the start with Leap and such, Bunny hopping is just not required.
And for those that say it makes the game intersting I ask you. With what we know about the game and all is possibilities is it not exciting and entertaining enough that you don't need to jump around in a manner that defies nature and destroys all the atmosphere and realism the developers have spent so long trying to create?
//Rantover
[Edit: iPhone Spelling Ftl]