Yes but the less depth player skill wise, the weaker player retention in the long term.
People dont tend to stick around on fps games in the long term that offer low levels of personal advancement.
The main point is, the NS1 skulk was a great creation and I think most people would concur. In which case why change it for NS2?. If its not broke then dont fix it, you will most likely just make it worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1717933:date=Jul 18 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 18 2009, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you so very much I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm so happy I'm tearing up because from what I recall at least 1/3 of my time spent on these forums, back in the day, was arguing about Marine bunny hopping with clanners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the marines jump around like crazy, good marines use jumps tactfully.
An easy way to solve this problem is to use server labeling to distinguish which servers would most likely have players that use techniques that other players frown upon (i.e. Casual vs. Competitive servers)
<!--quoteo(post=1718515:date=Jul 21 2009, 04:23 PM:name=fwd-Random)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fwd-Random @ Jul 21 2009, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes but the less depth player skill wise, the weaker player retention in the long term.
People dont tend to stick around on fps games in the long term that offer low levels of personal advancement.
The main point is, the NS1 skulk was a great creation and I think most people would concur. In which case why change it for NS2?. If its not broke then dont fix it, you will most likely just make it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... technically it IS broken. People just started accepting it as an integration into the game, as opposed to an exploit.
<!--quoteo(post=1718519:date=Jul 21 2009, 04:36 PM:name=Eddie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eddie @ Jul 21 2009, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well... technically it IS broken. People just started accepting it as an integration into the game, as opposed to an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes a game mechanic present since release and onwards, taken from dozens of fps predecessors spanning more than half a decade was an unintended exploit...
It's funny how a 'pure' skulk moving without even a slight amount of hopping was truly an underpowered design that could achieve very little and was also frustrating and boring to play.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1718522:date=Jul 21 2009, 05:45 PM:name=fwd-Random)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fwd-Random @ Jul 21 2009, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes a game mechanic present since release and onwards, taken from dozens of fps predecessors spanning more than half a decade was an unintended exploit... Sigh some people are so ignorant.
It's funny how a 'true' skulk moving without even a slight amount of hopping was truly an underpowered design that could achieve very little and was also frustrating and boring to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It <i>was</i> an exploit. It was left in NS1 intentionally, but that doesn't change what it originally was. Not that it matters at all what is <i>was</i> because it is a feature of NS1 <i>now</i> and would be a feature of NS2 if it is <i>added</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1718525:date=Jul 21 2009, 04:49 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jul 21 2009, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It <i>was</i> an exploit. It was left in NS1 intentionally, but that doesn't change what it originally was. Not that it matters at all what is <i>was</i> because it is a feature of NS1 <i>now</i> and would be a feature of NS2 if it is <i>added</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bidding Closed Winner - locallyunscene
The hopping or strafing jumping is not skill, its just a 'trick' that experienced players know and use (abuse ?) to gain an advantage over new players that have not heard or 'mastered' this trick. It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick. If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.
Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).
<!--quoteo(post=1718525:date=Jul 21 2009, 04:49 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jul 21 2009, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It <i>was</i> an exploit. It was left in NS1 intentionally, but that doesn't change what it originally was. Not that it matters at all what is <i>was</i> because it is a feature of NS1 <i>now</i> and would be a feature of NS2 if it is <i>added</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not really an exploit when it was a pre existing feature of the hl engine left in and an already established mechanic before hl itself. Rocket Jumping was not a significantly intended design feature of quake iirc along with bh but that was a different generation of gamers back then who embraced the depth such unforseen nuances brought and Carmack and co went with the flow rather than forcing the game to their original vision or trying to flatten the curve for more casual play.
I dont want to get further into the semantics of exploit but its available to everyone and only gave you an unfair advantage if you were actually better than your opponent which is generally how any type of game works, if you are better at doing a part of the game then you win more often.
<!--quoteo(post=1718529:date=Jul 21 2009, 11:02 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 21 2009, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hopping or strafing jumping is not skill, its just a 'trick' that experienced players know and use (abuse ?) to gain an advantage over new players that have not heard or 'mastered' this trick. It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick. If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.
Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).
Least thats what I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1718529:date=Jul 21 2009, 05:02 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 21 2009, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hopping or strafing jumping is not skill, its just a 'trick' that experienced players know and use (abuse ?) to gain an advantage over new players that have not heard or 'mastered' this trick. It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick. If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, what you say there is that learning a move in a game, any game, tennis, football, chess is just a trick used by experienced players to unfairly defeat novices.
I believe the point he was making was this; if you consider yourself skilled, you should be able to defeat a less skilled newbies not using advanced tactics but instead well executed basics.
He didn't say at any point that using advanced tactics is unfair, simply posed that you should be able own noobs without employing them.
<!--quoteo(post=1718547:date=Jul 21 2009, 05:52 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Jul 21 2009, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the point he was making was this; if you consider yourself skilled, you should be able to defeat a less skilled newbies not using advanced tactics but instead well executed basics.
He didn't say at any point that using advanced tactics is unfair, simply posed that you should be able own noobs without employing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if that is what he meant it is still a nonsensical argument.
I have a personal opinion that bunnyhop was a great feature in NS1, which added a versatile skill-based movement, unfortunately with a high learning curve, but as long as skulking is not dead boring and easy to learn but hard to master, bunnyhop isn't necessary in NS2 at all. Of course I would be happy to see it, but I think its rather unintutitive to learn. But the main problem is not that, there is for example Wave Dashing in SSBM, which you would usually need to learn from the web or friend, but as you play with <b>equally-skilled</b> players wave dashing isn't a necessary skill. I would apply this for NS too. If the games have equally skilled players, having a non-intutitive feature isn't necessarily a bad thing. In every game there will skills and tricks that advanced players know better than beginners, but the real question is whether a particular skill will add something of value to a game.
I find it rather unproductive to argue about the bunnyhop anymore, I think devs have already heard all the arguments after like twenty topics and five hundred posts.
Anyway, I hope we can see a skill-based movement. Let's discuss that. Vampireslayer used to have CTRL+SPACE leap/hop. This could be usable for skulk and it could have lots of inertia as skulk gets speed (colliding with a wall in high speed could even cause the skulk to faint partly). It could work with a perfect timing needed to increase speed (ie. hopping in mid air would slow it down remarkably). Maybe the skulk could hop to wall with it and stick to then jump again if timed well. This could easily replace the 2nd hive leap.
<!--quoteo(post=1718529:date=Jul 21 2009, 04:02 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 21 2009, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hopping or strafing jumping is not skill, its just a 'trick' that experienced players know and use (abuse ?) to gain an advantage over new players that have not heard or 'mastered' this trick. It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick. If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.
Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).
Least thats what I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> flamebait...
So, you're saying that players who take the time to learn/master a skill in a game shouldn't be rewarded?
As your argument goes, <!--quoteo(post=1718529:date=Jul 21 2009, 10:02 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 21 2009, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are all things that people can practice, learn, master, and develop. Sometimes even research to find out new nuances. In the same manner, bunnyhopping is researchable, and practicable, and thus is a skill by your own definition. Even minor use (like what I typically do) can add measurable advantage, so don't say it has too high barrier of entry.
I would concede that it isn't <i>intuitive</i> since in the real world there's no reason turning in the air would make you go faster. Even rocket jumping has some sense since it's an explosion. However, as far as it being a mere trick, you are sorely mistaken. It's a skill that can be refined and learned.
Also, ASnogarD, it seems that you are arbitrarily deciding which parts of the game are skill and can be legitemately used and learned, and which are "abusive".
And I think that you're drawing the line around those skills which you haven't mastered yet and labelling them as abusive.
Saying that skilled player should win by using only basic skills is like limiting Roger Federer to using one kind of serve and return. I think we can shut that argument down from that part. As spellman explained, it's a refined skill that has got many styles of use and levels of succesful execution.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1718602:date=Jul 22 2009, 02:13 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Jul 22 2009, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am also going to throw a spanner in the works now and say that Bunny hopping is not difficult to learn any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll just leave that here.
<!--quoteo(post=1718073:date=Jul 19 2009, 06:04 AM:name=HiVeFisH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HiVeFisH @ Jul 19 2009, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its gonna be big loss for ns2 if they really remove the complet movement possibilities marines had. I really dont wanna walk through the hall rooms just pressing w and from time to time shift to sprint.
The movement marines had in ns1 made every route through the map unique. Even after running rine start -> topo (ns_veil) tons of times its not the same thing.
And whats so bad about that? You couldnt shoot while doing it and the skulk is faster if he bhops. This is pretty balanced and adds a few tricks to lern if u want to master the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
I remember coris saying that the funnest thing about NS was the movement, and he's right. Take away the movement and you have marines walking down corridors at such a slow speed. The same old routine. With no difference between a good player and a bad player. It makes the game boring and less challeging. Who wants to waste time pressing one button when we can use a conjunction of buttons to make a "cool-looking" challenging faster movement form.
Every fast paced (no recoil) good FPS I know has some form of movement. Quake has strafe jumping, TF2 has sticky jumping and rocket jumping (which do infact show a skill gap in players in terms of the speed they can get to mid) - and even the scout requires movement as two jumps means airmovement and directional awareness are key, and then all the Half Life DM mods have either longjump packs and bunnyhop enabled, and ofc NS has it's great and complex set of movement skills.
In basic form, I rate players out of 3 catergories (ofc many can be added): 1) Aim 2) Movement 3) Gamesense + Intelligence
All of these form the players skill and by making the movement easier to learn or even non-existant, you are removing a catergory in effect.
As stated by Firewater, there are many better options which could be used in order to sort this "movement" divide in the community. Set servers with advanced movement, for a faster game, and others without, for a slower game. OR just by adding advanced guides with the game (maybe runnable demos and videos from ingame) which show the player how to move so that it is open to everyone.
Don't make it seem like I'm an idiot. That's just my opinion on movement in general. In any game.
As far as NS2 goes:
I hope they do find a good movement skill for aliens which is easy to learn but hard to master, but I also hope they add one for marines. Marines need movement too, and a simple "shift to sprint" type movement would not only be a massive bore but would not challenge any good player.
<!--quoteo(post=1718606:date=Jul 22 2009, 07:59 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 22 2009, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying that skilled player should win by using only basic skills...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Replace "should" with "should be able to".
Surely your ability to perform given tasks better is what defines skill for that particular attribute?
One might attest that to be considered <b>truly</b> skilled, one must be more skilled across the board, not just at the most effective technique.
<!--quoteo(post=1718640:date=Jul 22 2009, 01:14 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Jul 22 2009, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely your ability to perform given tasks better is what defines skill for that particular attribute?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that's called a strawman, but whatever.
No, the fact that it requires game sense, correct reactions and fluent mouse-keyboard coordination (to some extend) and can be performed to various levels of success and effectiviness make it a skill. It's not 'the method' either. It's a method to support the other methods in the game. I'm not going to dodge skulks to death or make the crucial fade block without seeing the opportunity first and going for it. However, it allows me to perform new kinds of stuff with the aim and game sense I've got.
<!--quoteo(post=1718633:date=Mar 11 2006, 08:32 AM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zamma @ Mar 11 2006, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as NS2 goes:
I hope they do find a good movement skill for aliens which is easy to learn but hard to master, but I also hope they add one for marines. Marines need movement too, and a simple "shift to sprint" type movement would not only be a massive bore but would not challenge any good player.
Ta<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->T H E K E Y is that it should be simple to actually do the movement/enter the movement mode and to put all the depth in controlling/taking advantage of the movement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1717933:date=Jul 18 2009, 03:02 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 18 2009, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you so very much I agree wholeheartedly. I'm so happy I'm tearing up because from what I recall at least 1/3 of my time spent on these forums, back in the day, was arguing about Marine bunny hopping with clanners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->YEAH! NS2 IS BEING DUMBED DOWN! No matter how stultifying the NS2 marine playstyle becomes, YOU will still be bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1718659:date=Dec 1 654, 11:27 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marks @ Dec 1 654, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pubbers will still get rolled by people who can aim, all it will do is make the game more boring for people /can/ already aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->It's always fun to shoot scrubs, at least they try to shoot back.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1718645:date=Jul 22 2009, 02:54 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jul 22 2009, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right, but it's completely irrelevant. W t h.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT, lol.
On topic for a moment: I agree that actively blocking the little tricks you can pull off if you implement a movement system in engine in a classical manner will 'dumb down' the movement for the marines, and if that's what you live for then it will be to the games detriment when you start playing. However I believe (/hope) that there should be enough depth in the rest of game for you to lose yourself in that once you get used to it, you'll forget the movement system is different and such be able to enjoy playing NS2 for what it is ( / will be). <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> (In that paragraph by 'you' I meant 'one', not aiming it at anyone).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> As for the skulk's movement system, it'll be interesting to see what they've come up with, but until they give us a clue it's gonna be quite hard to judge! Whilst there was much statisfaction to pulling off a good ambush without leap in NS1, I always had far more fun when I have had leap, I think it being included at hive 1 will make for a much more amusing engagements early game.
Comments
<b>Casual</b> friendly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed ;)
A lot of people seem to be struggling bhop even though they are very much familiar with the game already.
noob friendly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but the less depth player skill wise, the weaker player retention in the long term.
People dont tend to stick around on fps games in the long term that offer low levels of personal advancement.
The main point is, the NS1 skulk was a great creation and I think most people would concur. In which case why change it for NS2?. If its not broke then dont fix it, you will most likely just make it worse.
I'm so happy I'm tearing up because from what I recall at least 1/3 of my time spent on these forums, back in the day, was arguing about Marine bunny hopping with clanners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the marines jump around like crazy, good marines use jumps tactfully.
An easy way to solve this problem is to use server labeling to distinguish which servers would most likely have players that use techniques that other players frown upon (i.e. Casual vs. Competitive servers)
People dont tend to stick around on fps games in the long term that offer low levels of personal advancement.
The main point is, the NS1 skulk was a great creation and I think most people would concur. In which case why change it for NS2?. If its not broke then dont fix it, you will most likely just make it worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... technically it IS broken. People just started accepting it as an integration into the game, as opposed to an exploit.
Yes a game mechanic present since release and onwards, taken from dozens of fps predecessors spanning more than half a decade was an unintended exploit...
It's funny how a 'pure' skulk moving without even a slight amount of hopping was truly an underpowered design that could achieve very little and was also frustrating and boring to play.
It's funny how a 'true' skulk moving without even a slight amount of hopping was truly an underpowered design that could achieve very little and was also frustrating and boring to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It <i>was</i> an exploit. It was left in NS1 intentionally, but that doesn't change what it originally was. Not that it matters at all what is <i>was</i> because it is a feature of NS1 <i>now</i> and would be a feature of NS2 if it is <i>added</i>.
Bidding Closed
Winner - locallyunscene
It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick.
If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.
Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).
Least thats what I think.
It's not really an exploit when it was a pre existing feature of the hl engine left in and an already established mechanic before hl itself. Rocket Jumping was not a significantly intended design feature of quake iirc along with bh but that was a different generation of gamers back then who embraced the depth such unforseen nuances brought and Carmack and co went with the flow rather than forcing the game to their original vision or trying to flatten the curve for more casual play.
I dont want to get further into the semantics of exploit but its available to everyone and only gave you an unfair advantage if you were actually better than your opponent which is generally how any type of game works, if you are better at doing a part of the game then you win more often.
It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick.
If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.
Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).
Least thats what I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick.
If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, what you say there is that learning a move in a game, any game, tennis, football, chess is just a trick used by experienced players to unfairly defeat novices.
Your statement is complete nonsense.
He didn't say at any point that using advanced tactics is unfair, simply posed that you should be able own noobs without employing them.
He didn't say at any point that using advanced tactics is unfair, simply posed that you should be able own noobs without employing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if that is what he meant it is still a nonsensical argument.
I find it rather unproductive to argue about the bunnyhop anymore, I think devs have already heard all the arguments after like twenty topics and five hundred posts.
Anyway, I hope we can see a skill-based movement. Let's discuss that. Vampireslayer used to have CTRL+SPACE leap/hop. This could be usable for skulk and it could have lots of inertia as skulk gets speed (colliding with a wall in high speed could even cause the skulk to faint partly). It could work with a perfect timing needed to increase speed (ie. hopping in mid air would slow it down remarkably). Maybe the skulk could hop to wall with it and stick to then jump again if timed well. This could easily replace the 2nd hive leap.
It does not equate to actual skill , merely a demonstration of your tenacity in bothering to learn the trick.
If you are unable to beat a new player without needing the 'trick' ... then I am afraid you need to re think your skilled status.
Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).
Least thats what I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
flamebait...
As your argument goes,
<!--quoteo(post=1718529:date=Jul 21 2009, 10:02 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 21 2009, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skill is being able to track and shoot down fast moving targets, being able to asses a rapidly changing situation and taking appropriate action, understanding the team mechanics of the game and doing your part, ability to control and command your team as a marine comm (or able to advise and suggest tactics to your alien mates :P).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are all things that people can practice, learn, master, and develop. Sometimes even research to find out new nuances. In the same manner, bunnyhopping is researchable, and practicable, and thus is a skill by your own definition. Even minor use (like what I typically do) can add measurable advantage, so don't say it has too high barrier of entry.
I would concede that it isn't <i>intuitive</i> since in the real world there's no reason turning in the air would make you go faster. Even rocket jumping has some sense since it's an explosion. However, as far as it being a mere trick, you are sorely mistaken. It's a skill that can be refined and learned.
And I think that you're drawing the line around those skills which you haven't mastered yet and labelling them as abusive.
I'll just leave that here.
I really dont wanna walk through the hall rooms just pressing w and from time to time shift to sprint.
The movement marines had in ns1 made every route through the map unique. Even after running rine start -> topo (ns_veil) tons of times its not the same thing.
And whats so bad about that? You couldnt shoot while doing it and the skulk is faster if he bhops. This is pretty balanced and adds a few tricks to lern if u want to master the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
I remember coris saying that the funnest thing about NS was the movement, and he's right. Take away the movement and you have marines walking down corridors at such a slow speed. The same old routine. With no difference between a good player and a bad player. It makes the game boring and less challeging. Who wants to waste time pressing one button when we can use a conjunction of buttons to make a "cool-looking" challenging faster movement form.
Every fast paced (no recoil) good FPS I know has some form of movement. Quake has strafe jumping, TF2 has sticky jumping and rocket jumping (which do infact show a skill gap in players in terms of the speed they can get to mid) - and even the scout requires movement as two jumps means airmovement and directional awareness are key, and then all the Half Life DM mods have either longjump packs and bunnyhop enabled, and ofc NS has it's great and complex set of movement skills.
In basic form, I rate players out of 3 catergories (ofc many can be added):
1) Aim
2) Movement
3) Gamesense + Intelligence
All of these form the players skill and by making the movement easier to learn or even non-existant, you are removing a catergory in effect.
As stated by Firewater, there are many better options which could be used in order to sort this "movement" divide in the community. Set servers with advanced movement, for a faster game, and others without, for a slower game. OR just by adding advanced guides with the game (maybe runnable demos and videos from ingame) which show the player how to move so that it is open to everyone.
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Don't make it seem like I'm an idiot. That's just my opinion on movement in general. In any game.
As far as NS2 goes:
I hope they do find a good movement skill for aliens which is easy to learn but hard to master, but I also hope they add one for marines.
Marines need movement too, and a simple "shift to sprint" type movement would not only be a massive bore but would not challenge any good player.
Ta
Replace "should" with "should be able to".
Surely your ability to perform given tasks better is what defines skill for that particular attribute?
One might attest that to be considered <b>truly</b> skilled, one must be more skilled across the board, not just at the most effective technique.
I think that's called a strawman, but whatever.
No, the fact that it requires game sense, correct reactions and fluent mouse-keyboard coordination (to some extend) and can be performed to various levels of success and effectiviness make it a skill. It's not 'the method' either. It's a method to support the other methods in the game. I'm not going to dodge skulks to death or make the crucial fade block without seeing the opportunity first and going for it. However, it allows me to perform new kinds of stuff with the aim and game sense I've got.
I hope they do find a good movement skill for aliens which is easy to learn but hard to master, but I also hope they add one for marines.
Marines need movement too, and a simple "shift to sprint" type movement would not only be a massive bore but would not challenge any good player.
Ta<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->T H E K E Y is that it should be simple to actually do the movement/enter the movement mode and to put all the depth in controlling/taking advantage of the movement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->It's always fun to shoot scrubs, at least they try to shoot back.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
QFT, lol.
On topic for a moment: I agree that actively blocking the little tricks you can pull off if you implement a movement system in engine in a classical manner will 'dumb down' the movement for the marines, and if that's what you live for then it will be to the games detriment when you start playing. However I believe (/hope) that there should be enough depth in the rest of game for you to lose yourself in that once you get used to it, you'll forget the movement system is different and such be able to enjoy playing NS2 for what it is ( / will be). <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> (In that paragraph by 'you' I meant 'one', not aiming it at anyone).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As for the skulk's movement system, it'll be interesting to see what they've come up with, but until they give us a clue it's gonna be quite hard to judge! Whilst there was much statisfaction to pulling off a good ambush without leap in NS1, I always had far more fun when I have had leap, I think it being included at hive 1 will make for a much more amusing engagements early game.