<!--quoteo(post=1723378:date=Aug 17 2009, 08:34 PM:name=iPanda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iPanda @ Aug 17 2009, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I agree with steppin' (hands steppin' a +1) I have a question for all of the Bunnyhopping marine fans. What's the point in, the developers creating any form of atmosphere, realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams when players are arguing And complaining about having and keeping Balla-riners lets face it from a realism point of view. A full clad Soilder isn't going to jump around to avoid getting attacked. If anything they might Dive ( a concept I would be a fan off), but realistically it wouldn't and shouldn't happen. It was only plausable due to the old and rather dated Halflife 1 engine. People say this devloped from a need or requirement to combat skilled players. But all it ever did was promote Rambos and anti team based gaming since other players would oftern block your ridiculous bouncing path. Personally I don't think natural selection 2 needs such a dated method for combat anymore. It's not what the games about. It's a Teamwork based game. With smaller more compact levels and more players possible per server this means the gameplay is going to be forced even more towards group and team based play and tactics. Suddenly being a Balla-riner isn't so important. Skulks are going to have there own skilled based movement from the start with Leap and such, Bunny hopping is just not required. And for those that say it makes the game intersting I ask you. With what we know about the game and all is possibilities is it not exciting and entertaining enough that you don't need to jump around in a manner that defies nature and destroys all the atmosphere and realism the developers have spent so long trying to create?
maybe they should not have voice chat also and just have default voice commands, because people chatting over voice comm how it was bs how they died will hurt all that "atmosphere" and "realism". This is a MULTIPLAYER game.
Skill based and team based gameplay are not mutually exclusive.
<!--quoteo(post=1723378:date=Aug 17 2009, 06:34 PM:name=iPanda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iPanda @ Aug 17 2009, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I agree with steppin' (hands steppin' a +1) I have a question for all of the Bunnyhopping marine fans. What's the point in, the developers creating any form of atmosphere, realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams when players are arguing And complaining about having and keeping Balla-riners lets face it from a realism point of view. A full clad Soilder isn't going to jump around to avoid getting attacked. If anything they might Dive ( a concept I would be a fan off), but realistically it wouldn't and shouldn't happen. It was only plausable due to the old and rather dated Halflife 1 engine. People say this devloped from a need or requirement to combat skilled players. But all it ever did was promote Rambos and anti team based gaming since other players would oftern block your ridiculous bouncing path. Personally I don't think natural selection 2 needs such a dated method for combat anymore. It's not what the games about. It's a Teamwork based game. With smaller more compact levels and more players possible per server this means the gameplay is going to be forced even more towards group and team based play and tactics. Suddenly being a Balla-riner isn't so important. Skulks are going to have there own skilled based movement from the start with Leap and such, Bunny hopping is just not required. And for those that say it makes the game intersting I ask you. With what we know about the game and all is possibilities is it not exciting and entertaining enough that you don't need to jump around in a manner that defies nature and destroys all the atmosphere and realism the developers have spent so long trying to create?
*let's try a constructive comment next time, ok?* --Comprox
get real.
*Long drawn out explanation for those that don't understand the subtle nuances of the English language: It is nothing more than ironic to claim a video game that is based on space people killing infested aliens shouldn't have marines "jumping around" because it isn't "realist".
Aaaaand, there we go from a discussion about movement as a gameplay mechanic that started to become interesting to a "whuaaaa, I dont like ballet".
Steppin': First of all I implore you to try to look at this with an open mind. How does NS play now, and how would it play with a more static marine side? Let's try to drop all the penis measurements and this might become an interesting discussion!
Second, I don't think Counter-Strike is an appropriate game to compare NS with in this case. CS doesn't force terrorists to rely heavily on melee, something which drastically chances the situation.
In CS you pre-position yourself, you do small movement tricks to throw of the first few bullets of the opponent to gain an advantage and you tag team. Then it's down to twitching. In NS however we have a team which doesn't twitch if the ranged counterpart doesn't dodge, while the second team won't have to aim well if the first team doesn't move well. Removing the ability of the marines to dodge effectively in close range not only reduces the potential skill required to aim and kill the skulk (dodging and shooting at the same time is difficult depending on your opponent), you also reduce the potential skill required to both dodge and throw of the aim of the marine while landing hits.
I agree that a game should be easily accessible, but it also needs to have great depth and not only in the meta game or on a strategic level. I'll bring up Starcraft as an example of a game that for some reason succeeded, and claim to have some of the answers as to why. First it has great strategical depth. There are hard, but more importantly many soft counters to decisions one can make, even on high levels of play. This is required for a RTS game to be even remotely successful. Then comes the second and arguably the more important thing. There is great depth also in the menial tasks. Even at the highest levels players fumble away dropships to hydras, or leave high templars trailing behind their army without using up storm. This 'endless' task of keeping track of things and doing them as quickly and efficiently as possible also puts pressure on the players to think fast. While newbies might have 30 minutes of almost nothing happening while they can figure out where to drop, the pros have to keep up with the macro while doing the obvious pressuring and ALSO adjust to what the opponent is doing and react, or manage to set the pace for the game.
In NS I would argue that the strategic part for obvious reason is of less importance than in a pure RTS game. However by making sure the depth of the movement mini game stayed deep enough there was a constant need to keep pace with the changes in play styles and general improvements of the players in the scene. It not only added pressure in game on the players, where some (most) players I know could more or less aim-bot down a skulk even at leap speeds had it not been for the need to actually move and react to the attack. It also as I already stated, was the one thing the meta game revolved around. How you dodged as marines in groups was what separated bad teams from good teams but also the good from other good, as sometimes in making the transition to a new one it took weeks to learn their movement patterns and adjust.
So in conclusion, the dodging bites and bullets and the twitching to catch a dodging marine simply IS NS1. NS2 will be different, but why change the single thing that made people keep playing? WOT ended. Don't write in the mornings!
Okay a couple of Things. 1. I Apolagise for the Drunk Rant this morning. 2. What I think I was trying to get across, is the way the game is being created now doesn't and won't require the Ecclusive use of Strafe jumping and Bunny hopping to survive. 3. Homicide I simply ment Strafe Jumping and Bunny hopping Defies Human realism. If your hit can you jump diagonally backwards? I know I physically couldn't. (On a personal note) Also I happen to be Dyslexic so less of the sarcasm next time it's not appreciated. [Edit Spelling]
<!--quoteo(post=1723428:date=Aug 18 2009, 10:19 AM:name=iPanda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iPanda @ Aug 18 2009, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay a couple of Things. 1. I Apolagise for the Drunk Rant this morning. 2. What I think I was trying to get across, is the way the game is being created now doesn't and won't require the Ecclusive use of Strafe jumping and Bunny hopping to survive. 3. Homicide I simply ment Strafe Jumping and Bunny hopping Defies Human realism. If your hit can you jump diagonally backwards? I know I physically couldn't. (On a personal note) Also I happen to be Dyslexic so less of the sarcasm next time it's not appreciated. [Edit Spelling]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My idea has always been that RTS/FPS isn't the game where you want to have realism based stuff. There are far better setups for it in games of different nature. I can understand some demand for atmosphere, but still RTS/FPS in the traditional way is never going to be realistic or highly immersive as long as buildings drop down from the sky, marines peak the human technology in minutes and gorges create hives out of thin air.
The reason people is still playing NS is mainly the extreme high skill cap, not the atmosphere nor the realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams. If you removed air control, movement skill and generally lowered the skill cap, NS would just be another generic fps game like most fps games these days.
I don’t appreciate the tend to simplify and randomize games just to make the game more casual and easier for newcomers, it is just so frustrating and plain boring to play a game where the chap that just bought the game can kill you with a lucky crit or where your gun does different damage with each blast. The only thing NS lacked was a good scripted tutorial, a better manual and a +3jump script incorporated when playing as any class but lerk or just the jump mechanism from quake.
<!--quoteo(post=1723455:date=Aug 18 2009, 10:43 AM:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy @ Aug 18 2009, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason people is still playing NS is mainly the extreme high skill cap, not the atmosphere nor the realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams. If you removed air control, movement skill and generally lowered the skill cap, NS would just be another generic fps game like most fps games these days.
I don’t appreciate the tend to simplify and randomize games just to make the game more casual and easier for newcomers, it is just so frustrating and plain boring to play a game where the chap that just bought the game can kill you with a lucky crit or where your gun does different damage with each blast. The only thing NS lacked was a good scripted tutorial, a better manual and a +3jump script incorporated when playing as any class but lerk or just the jump mechanism from quake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I normally avoid this thread like the plague, because I participated discussion about bunny hopping and they never, ever go anywhere. People just get more vindicated as the thread gets larger. That said, I'd like to make one comment.
No game by design should ever require scripting or have scripts built in to be played properly. A built in +3jump script? That's mad!
<!--quoteo(post=1723458:date=Aug 18 2009, 04:07 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Aug 18 2009, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No game by design should ever require scripting or have scripts built in to be played properly. A built in +3jump script? That's mad!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Basically you could consider +movement a complex script. Was that mad?
3jump takes away the unnecessarily difficult and inconsistent jump timing from the game. With proper implementation and avaibility 'hidden' scripts can make the game way more accessible without taking away the higher end content. By hidden I mean that they turn out to be features and no longer scripts even though the effect is very much the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1723463:date=Aug 18 2009, 12:58 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 18 2009, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you could consider +movement a complex script. Was that mad?
3jump takes away the unnecessarily difficult and inconsistent jump timing from the game. With proper implementation and avaibility 'hidden' scripts can make the game way more accessible without taking away the higher end content. By hidden I mean that they turn out to be features and no longer scripts even though the effect is very much the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea of having a key bound to jumping three times is mad. Any person who does not know what bunny hopping is and sees that command will go "huh?" and think its silly.
I'd admit that +movement is nice and makes sense. It uses are very apparent. I liked the eventual merging of +reload and +movement too.
EDIT: Aborting from the thread now, I said too much. >_<
<!--quoteo(post=1723465:date=Aug 18 2009, 05:20 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Aug 18 2009, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea of having a key bound to jumping three times is mad. Any person who does not know what bunny hopping is and sees that command will go "huh?" and think its silly.
I'd admit that +movement is nice and makes sense. It uses are very apparent. I liked the eventual merging of +reload and +movement too.
EDIT: Aborting from the thread now, I said too much. >_<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we called +3jump "+jump" nobody wouldn't realize the difference apart from lerking. Who knows what kind of weird cajigger we can find behind NS' commands. Just the implementation matters, even in NS' case 3jump would have changed the jump behavior for the better most of the time. Obiviously they don't have to use the repetetive way of jumping in NS2 though.
Edit: Posting in a hurry never results in anything but a mess for me. I was trying to point out that scripting isn't necessarily that bad, all depends on how it's used.
I think if you want to bounce around and play wildly, you can do that while playing the alien team. And I hate the arguement, "If we take away marine bunnyhopping/jumping around we lose alot of potential skill involved as playing a marine." Well if we gave noclip to every single person playing, I'm sure you could say you're giving alot of potential skill development in that degree... but it looks stupid and it isn't very fun to play, and it ceases to be Natural Selection at that point.
Newer more polished gameplay mechanics may give more control to marines yet not make the Marine, the "Bunny Commandos" hopping up and down rails out-manuevering the supposedly more agile aliens.
I think a little bit of twitch gameplay needs to stick though, one or two strafe jump, ok. But the nonstop hopping down rails and hallways should get fixed, I'm sure the wallrunning will be non-existent in the new engine as well...
<!--quoteo(post=1723414:date=Aug 18 2009, 02:35 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 18 2009, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So in conclusion, the dodging bites and bullets and the twitching to catch a dodging marine simply IS NS1. NS2 will be different, but why change the single thing that made people keep playing? WOT ended. Don't write in the mornings!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It had the opposite effect on me; I _left_ NS1 because of things like bunnyhopping marines. Some people like myself just don't like it as things tend to degenerate into a mass of jump key spam in fights which was ok for quake and such but has no place in NS2 IMO. To put this bluntly: the dev team wants NS2 to be taken seriously and not as something "goofy" like the first version of PVK (pirates vikings knights). That is why they are wanting to tone down Marines bouncing around all over the place and I support this decision whole-heartedly and will be supporting it with $ also if they follow through on this.
<!--quoteo(post=1723463:date=Aug 16 2003, 12:58 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 16 2003, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you could consider +movement a complex script. Was that mad?
3jump takes away the unnecessarily difficult and inconsistent jump timing from the game. With proper implementation and avaibility 'hidden' scripts can make the game way more accessible without taking away the higher end content. By hidden I mean that they turn out to be features and no longer scripts even though the effect is very much the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Basically you're saying that 3jump is a crutch to make the game more accessible for low-skill players. A good player shouldn't need scripts to perform a "simple" and "important" move.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sirot+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No game by design should ever require scripting or have scripts built in to be played properly. A built in +3jump script? That's mad!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if your saying that they should or shouldn't incorporate a script to do the work. But if you don't play TF2, they just changed the way one of the classes (Scouts) pistol works. Before to fire at max speed at 0.75 ROF, you needed a script, but when you held down the mouse button normally to shoot, it shot automatically at 1.75 ROF. Basically extremely slow.
But VALVE didn't want people using script so they raised the max ROF a bit to 1.1 and made you shoot automatically at that rate when you held the mouse button down.
This can be inferred from VALVE saying basically we don't want half the people scripting and the other half not. So they made the ability available to all.
And it seems no one is complaining about that.
Also I just realized, that people were using autoreload scripts to reload their weapons when they aren't firing. Which is important for classes such as Soldier, Demo, Scouts (3 of the 4 main competitive classes). So VALVE decided to add the feature in TF2 to automatically reload your weapon, which then removes the need for scripting.
If its good enough for VALVE why wouldn't it be good enough for UWE to add stuff like this in to prevent people from crying about scripting?
<!--quoteo(post=1723474:date=Aug 18 2009, 01:19 PM:name=kuperaye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kuperaye @ Aug 18 2009, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><snippage><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreement. The "best" mode of playing should be the default configuration, with other configurations available for those who like to specialize in certain things. If you find that a large portion of the community is using a script, that script should probably be incorporated as the default behavior to ensure that the playing field is level between those who feel comfortable using scripts and those who just like to get in and play.
<!--quoteo(post=1723476:date=Nov 29 2006, 03:43 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Nov 29 2006, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreement. The "best" mode of playing should be the default configuration, with other configurations available for those who like to specialize in certain things. If you find that a large portion of the community is using a script, that script should probably be incorporated as the default behavior to ensure that the playing field is level between those who feel comfortable using scripts and those who just like to get in and play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, when a lot of players have some script or workaround, the devs probably really should look at it and consider a) implementing that as a default b) changing the mechanic so that such a script/workaround isn't needed. Depending on the mechanic, a and b can blur together a bit though. This is especially true when the workaround causes a ton of lag/slow performance on the server.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1723470:date=Aug 18 2009, 10:52 AM:name=FilthyLarry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FilthyLarry @ Aug 18 2009, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It had the opposite effect on me; I _left_ NS1 because of things like bunnyhopping marines. Some people like myself just don't like it as things tend to degenerate into a mass of jump key spam in fights which was ok for quake and such but has no place in NS2 IMO. To put this bluntly: the dev team wants NS2 to be taken seriously and not as something "goofy" like the first version of PVK (pirates vikings knights). That is why they are wanting to tone down Marines bouncing around all over the place and I support this decision whole-heartedly and will be supporting it with $ also if they follow through on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One questions how much say a player who quit the prequel to NS2 should have on its development. I can hardly read these forums without raging at the newest retard who comes in with his suggestions to try and turn NS2 into another tactical-shooter clone that will entertain him for a grand total of two weeks before he completely forgets about it moves onto the next newest thing.
Space_Cowboy pretty much hit the nail on the head. If NS didn't have its high skill ceiling, I would've quit this game years ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1723504:date=Aug 18 2009, 06:27 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Aug 18 2009, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One questions how much say a player who quit the prequel to NS2 should have on its development. I can hardly read these forums without raging at the newest retard who comes in with his suggestions to try and turn NS2 into another tactical-shooter clone that will entertain him for a grand total of two weeks before he completely forgets about it moves onto the next newest thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One questions how much say an active player of the prequel should have when they display a conservative mindset that wants NS2 to be a clone of NS1. One hopes for a bit more in a sequel usually.
(psssst... keep slinging around words like "retard" as that really helps you look mature and plus the moderators love that kind of talk)
<!--quoteo(post=1723504:date=Aug 18 2009, 06:27 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Aug 18 2009, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Space_Cowboy pretty much hit the nail on the head. If NS didn't have its high skill ceiling, I would've quit this game years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid to inform you that Space_Cowboy missed the nail on the first try and managed to land a pretty good one on your noggin ol' fellow. You do realize that in your confused state you have plead guilty to the charge of hypocrisy Sir ? "I would've quit this game years ago" you said... think about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1723458:date=Aug 19 2009, 02:07 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Aug 19 2009, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I normally avoid this thread like the plague, because I participated discussion about bunny hopping and they never, ever go anywhere. People just get more vindicated as the thread gets larger. That said, I'd like to make one comment.
No game by design should ever require scripting or have scripts built in to be played properly. A built in +3jump script? That's mad!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mate completely agree, thats bad game design.
And tjosan I only mentioned cs because I was replying to someone asking about when has a movement system been borked in some way and the competitive community didn't die. Thats where my comparison started and ended.
Finally todd1k, I don't know anything about CSS I stopped playing some time during 1.6.
No game design should require scripting, but I can't see any bad in hopping along the bandwagon once the advantages are discovered. It's a nice way of patching up the slightly bad game design that seems to happen in every game in the existence. I can't see any reason why a lot of the commands NS uses couldn't be some kind of similar scripts hidden under aliases and such. If it works, take advantage of it and make NS2 a better game.
There are probably far more elegant ways of doing things, but I don't really care what methods they use as long as they work.
would it be possible to let some servers enable or disable bunny marines? it's really annoying when players with ranged weapons can move BACKWARDS faster than you can as a close combat class...
My answer to you can simply be summed up by: they can't move backwards faster than the close combat class, it's simply you who's not good enough in relation to the other player to keep up. You wouldn't lose to Federer in tennis and claim the ability to strike a forhand or what have you is bad gameplay just because he out plays you. To draw the argument to it's ridiculous end.
No, it's one thing to argue you <i>want</i> a more static all or nothing gameplay, or that marines jumping isn't pretty on screenshots or in videos is a large enough issue. These views I can accept as valid even though I disagree. It's another thing entirely to claim it's a bad mechanic because you personally can't outspeed a backwards moving marine in NS1. That I can't accept as a reason to design NS2 differently from what I would like.
You can't accept someone arguing put in an option to thin out the gap between people who know how to exploit a bug and people who don't? I wasn't even proposing that this be FORCED onto you.
<!--quoteo(post=1723751:date=Aug 19 2009, 04:32 PM:name=SgtPrinny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtPrinny @ Aug 19 2009, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't accept someone arguing put in an option to thin out the gap between people who know how to exploit a bug and people who don't? I wasn't even proposing that this be FORCED onto you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They fixed the goldsource air control bug in the 1990's...when they didn't do anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1723751:date=Aug 20 2009, 12:32 AM:name=SgtPrinny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtPrinny @ Aug 20 2009, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't accept someone arguing put in an option to thin out the gap between people who know how to exploit a bug and people who don't? I wasn't even proposing that this be FORCED onto you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How to dodge as a marine:
1. Turn your mouse right about 90 degrees.
2. Simultaneusly strafe right and jump while performing the smooth 90 degree turn.
+++ If you want to continue without a slowdown, either perform the jump while ducking, or land on level above your starting position.
Now you know how to exploit it. Now go pwn everybody with your completely imbalanced marine.
No, seriously, knowing how to do it isn't that exiting. Learning how to use it is much more fun in every possible way.
Comments
I have a question for all of the Bunnyhopping marine fans.
What's the point in, the developers creating any form of atmosphere, realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams when players are arguing And complaining about having and keeping Balla-riners lets face it from a realism point of view. A full clad Soilder isn't going to jump around to avoid getting attacked. If anything they might Dive ( a concept I would be a fan off), but realistically it wouldn't and shouldn't happen. It was only plausable due to the old and rather dated Halflife 1 engine.
People say this devloped from a need or requirement to combat skilled players. But all it ever did was promote Rambos and anti team based gaming since other players would oftern block your ridiculous bouncing path. Personally I don't think natural selection 2 needs such a dated method for combat anymore. It's not what the games about. It's a Teamwork based game. With smaller more compact levels and more players possible per server this means the gameplay is going to be forced even more towards group and team based play and tactics. Suddenly being a Balla-riner isn't so important. Skulks are going to have there own skilled based movement from the start with Leap and such, Bunny hopping is just not required.
And for those that say it makes the game intersting I ask you. With what we know about the game and all is possibilities is it not exciting and entertaining enough that you don't need to jump around in a manner that defies nature and destroys all the atmosphere and realism the developers have spent so long trying to create?
//Rantover
[Edit: iPhone Spelling Ftl]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe they should not have voice chat also and just have default voice commands, because people chatting over voice comm how it was bs how they died will hurt all that "atmosphere" and "realism". This is a MULTIPLAYER game.
Skill based and team based gameplay are not mutually exclusive.
I have a question for all of the Bunnyhopping marine fans.
What's the point in, the developers creating any form of atmosphere, realism, suspense or uniqueness between teams when players are arguing And complaining about having and keeping Balla-riners lets face it from a realism point of view. A full clad Soilder isn't going to jump around to avoid getting attacked. If anything they might Dive ( a concept I would be a fan off), but realistically it wouldn't and shouldn't happen. It was only plausable due to the old and rather dated Halflife 1 engine.
People say this devloped from a need or requirement to combat skilled players. But all it ever did was promote Rambos and anti team based gaming since other players would oftern block your ridiculous bouncing path. Personally I don't think natural selection 2 needs such a dated method for combat anymore. It's not what the games about. It's a Teamwork based game. With smaller more compact levels and more players possible per server this means the gameplay is going to be forced even more towards group and team based play and tactics. Suddenly being a Balla-riner isn't so important. Skulks are going to have there own skilled based movement from the start with Leap and such, Bunny hopping is just not required.
And for those that say it makes the game intersting I ask you. With what we know about the game and all is possibilities is it not exciting and entertaining enough that you don't need to jump around in a manner that defies nature and destroys all the atmosphere and realism the developers have spent so long trying to create?
//Rantover
[Edit: iPhone Spelling Ftl]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*let's try a constructive comment next time, ok?* --Comprox
get real.
*Long drawn out explanation for those that don't understand the subtle nuances of the English language: It is nothing more than ironic to claim a video game that is based on space people killing infested aliens shouldn't have marines "jumping around" because it isn't "realist".
Steppin':
First of all I implore you to try to look at this with an open mind. How does NS play now, and how would it play with a more static marine side? Let's try to drop all the penis measurements and this might become an interesting discussion!
Second, I don't think Counter-Strike is an appropriate game to compare NS with in this case. CS doesn't force terrorists to rely heavily on melee, something which drastically chances the situation.
In CS you pre-position yourself, you do small movement tricks to throw of the first few bullets of the opponent to gain an advantage and you tag team. Then it's down to twitching. In NS however we have a team which doesn't twitch if the ranged counterpart doesn't dodge, while the second team won't have to aim well if the first team doesn't move well. Removing the ability of the marines to dodge effectively in close range not only reduces the potential skill required to aim and kill the skulk (dodging and shooting at the same time is difficult depending on your opponent), you also reduce the potential skill required to both dodge and throw of the aim of the marine while landing hits.
I agree that a game should be easily accessible, but it also needs to have great depth and not only in the meta game or on a strategic level. I'll bring up Starcraft as an example of a game that for some reason succeeded, and claim to have some of the answers as to why. First it has great strategical depth. There are hard, but more importantly many soft counters to decisions one can make, even on high levels of play. This is required for a RTS game to be even remotely successful. Then comes the second and arguably the more important thing. There is great depth also in the menial tasks. Even at the highest levels players fumble away dropships to hydras, or leave high templars trailing behind their army without using up storm. This 'endless' task of keeping track of things and doing them as quickly and efficiently as possible also puts pressure on the players to think fast. While newbies might have 30 minutes of almost nothing happening while they can figure out where to drop, the pros have to keep up with the macro while doing the obvious pressuring and ALSO adjust to what the opponent is doing and react, or manage to set the pace for the game.
In NS I would argue that the strategic part for obvious reason is of less importance than in a pure RTS game. However by making sure the depth of the movement mini game stayed deep enough there was a constant need to keep pace with the changes in play styles and general improvements of the players in the scene. It not only added pressure in game on the players, where some (most) players I know could more or less aim-bot down a skulk even at leap speeds had it not been for the need to actually move and react to the attack. It also as I already stated, was the one thing the meta game revolved around. How you dodged as marines in groups was what separated bad teams from good teams but also the good from other good, as sometimes in making the transition to a new one it took weeks to learn their movement patterns and adjust.
So in conclusion, the dodging bites and bullets and the twitching to catch a dodging marine simply IS NS1. NS2 will be different, but why change the single thing that made people keep playing? WOT ended. Don't write in the mornings!
1. I Apolagise for the Drunk Rant this morning.
2. What I think I was trying to get across, is the way the game is being created now doesn't and won't require the Ecclusive use of Strafe jumping and Bunny hopping to survive.
3. Homicide I simply ment Strafe Jumping and Bunny hopping Defies Human realism. If your hit can you jump diagonally backwards? I know I physically couldn't.
(On a personal note) Also I happen to be Dyslexic so less of the sarcasm next time it's not appreciated.
[Edit Spelling]
1. I Apolagise for the Drunk Rant this morning.
2. What I think I was trying to get across, is the way the game is being created now doesn't and won't require the Ecclusive use of Strafe jumping and Bunny hopping to survive.
3. Homicide I simply ment Strafe Jumping and Bunny hopping Defies Human realism. If your hit can you jump diagonally backwards? I know I physically couldn't.
(On a personal note) Also I happen to be Dyslexic so less of the sarcasm next time it's not appreciated.
[Edit Spelling]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My idea has always been that RTS/FPS isn't the game where you want to have realism based stuff. There are far better setups for it in games of different nature. I can understand some demand for atmosphere, but still RTS/FPS in the traditional way is never going to be realistic or highly immersive as long as buildings drop down from the sky, marines peak the human technology in minutes and gorges create hives out of thin air.
I don’t appreciate the tend to simplify and randomize games just to make the game more casual and easier for newcomers, it is just so frustrating and plain boring to play a game where the chap that just bought the game can kill you with a lucky crit or where your gun does different damage with each blast.
The only thing NS lacked was a good scripted tutorial, a better manual and a +3jump script incorporated when playing as any class but lerk or just the jump mechanism from quake.
I don’t appreciate the tend to simplify and randomize games just to make the game more casual and easier for newcomers, it is just so frustrating and plain boring to play a game where the chap that just bought the game can kill you with a lucky crit or where your gun does different damage with each blast.
The only thing NS lacked was a good scripted tutorial, a better manual and a +3jump script incorporated when playing as any class but lerk or just the jump mechanism from quake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I normally avoid this thread like the plague, because I participated discussion about bunny hopping and they never, ever go anywhere. People just get more vindicated as the thread gets larger. That said, I'd like to make one comment.
No game by design should ever require scripting or have scripts built in to be played properly. A built in +3jump script? That's mad!
Basically you could consider +movement a complex script. Was that mad?
3jump takes away the unnecessarily difficult and inconsistent jump timing from the game. With proper implementation and avaibility 'hidden' scripts can make the game way more accessible without taking away the higher end content. By hidden I mean that they turn out to be features and no longer scripts even though the effect is very much the same.
3jump takes away the unnecessarily difficult and inconsistent jump timing from the game. With proper implementation and avaibility 'hidden' scripts can make the game way more accessible without taking away the higher end content. By hidden I mean that they turn out to be features and no longer scripts even though the effect is very much the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea of having a key bound to jumping three times is mad. Any person who does not know what bunny hopping is and sees that command will go "huh?" and think its silly.
I'd admit that +movement is nice and makes sense. It uses are very apparent. I liked the eventual merging of +reload and +movement too.
EDIT: Aborting from the thread now, I said too much. >_<
I'd admit that +movement is nice and makes sense. It uses are very apparent. I liked the eventual merging of +reload and +movement too.
EDIT: Aborting from the thread now, I said too much. >_<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we called +3jump "+jump" nobody wouldn't realize the difference apart from lerking. Who knows what kind of weird cajigger we can find behind NS' commands. Just the implementation matters, even in NS' case 3jump would have changed the jump behavior for the better most of the time. Obiviously they don't have to use the repetetive way of jumping in NS2 though.
Edit: Posting in a hurry never results in anything but a mess for me. I was trying to point out that scripting isn't necessarily that bad, all depends on how it's used.
Newer more polished gameplay mechanics may give more control to marines yet not make the Marine, the "Bunny Commandos" hopping up and down rails out-manuevering the supposedly more agile aliens.
I think a little bit of twitch gameplay needs to stick though, one or two strafe jump, ok. But the nonstop hopping down rails and hallways should get fixed, I'm sure the wallrunning will be non-existent in the new engine as well...
Ummm....
You know they put bunnyhopping back in for CSS right?
It had the opposite effect on me; I _left_ NS1 because of things like bunnyhopping marines. Some people like myself just don't like it as things tend to degenerate into a mass of jump key spam in fights which was ok for quake and such but has no place in NS2 IMO. To put this bluntly: the dev team wants NS2 to be taken seriously and not as something "goofy" like the first version of PVK (pirates vikings knights). That is why they are wanting to tone down Marines bouncing around all over the place and I support this decision whole-heartedly and will be supporting it with $ also if they follow through on this.
3jump takes away the unnecessarily difficult and inconsistent jump timing from the game. With proper implementation and avaibility 'hidden' scripts can make the game way more accessible without taking away the higher end content. By hidden I mean that they turn out to be features and no longer scripts even though the effect is very much the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Basically you're saying that 3jump is a crutch to make the game more accessible for low-skill players. A good player shouldn't need scripts to perform a "simple" and "important" move.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
I'm not sure if your saying that they should or shouldn't incorporate a script to do the work. But if you don't play TF2, they just changed the way one of the classes (Scouts) pistol works. Before to fire at max speed at 0.75 ROF, you needed a script, but when you held down the mouse button normally to shoot, it shot automatically at 1.75 ROF. Basically extremely slow.
But VALVE didn't want people using script so they raised the max ROF a bit to 1.1 and made you shoot automatically at that rate when you held the mouse button down.
This can be inferred from VALVE saying basically we don't want half the people scripting and the other half not. So they made the ability available to all.
And it seems no one is complaining about that.
Also I just realized, that people were using autoreload scripts to reload their weapons when they aren't firing. Which is important for classes such as Soldier, Demo, Scouts (3 of the 4 main competitive classes). So VALVE decided to add the feature in TF2 to automatically reload your weapon, which then removes the need for scripting.
If its good enough for VALVE why wouldn't it be good enough for UWE to add stuff like this in to prevent people from crying about scripting?
Agreement. The "best" mode of playing should be the default configuration, with other configurations available for those who like to specialize in certain things. If you find that a large portion of the community is using a script, that script should probably be incorporated as the default behavior to ensure that the playing field is level between those who feel comfortable using scripts and those who just like to get in and play.
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, when a lot of players have some script or workaround, the devs probably really should look at it and consider a) implementing that as a default b) changing the mechanic so that such a script/workaround isn't needed. Depending on the mechanic, a and b can blur together a bit though. This is especially true when the workaround causes a ton of lag/slow performance on the server.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
One questions how much say a player who quit the prequel to NS2 should have on its development. I can hardly read these forums without raging at the newest retard who comes in with his suggestions to try and turn NS2 into another tactical-shooter clone that will entertain him for a grand total of two weeks before he completely forgets about it moves onto the next newest thing.
Space_Cowboy pretty much hit the nail on the head. If NS didn't have its high skill ceiling, I would've quit this game years ago.
One questions how much say an active player of the prequel should have when they display a conservative mindset that wants NS2 to be a clone of NS1. One hopes for a bit more in a sequel usually.
(psssst... keep slinging around words like "retard" as that really helps you look mature and plus the moderators love that kind of talk)
<!--quoteo(post=1723504:date=Aug 18 2009, 06:27 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Aug 18 2009, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Space_Cowboy pretty much hit the nail on the head. If NS didn't have its high skill ceiling, I would've quit this game years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid to inform you that Space_Cowboy missed the nail on the first try and managed to land a pretty good one on your noggin ol' fellow. You do realize that in your confused state you have plead guilty to the charge of hypocrisy Sir ? "I would've quit this game years ago" you said... think about it.
No game by design should ever require scripting or have scripts built in to be played properly. A built in +3jump script? That's mad!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mate completely agree, thats bad game design.
And tjosan I only mentioned cs because I was replying to someone asking about when has a movement system been borked in some way and the competitive community didn't die. Thats where my comparison started and ended.
Finally todd1k, I don't know anything about CSS I stopped playing some time during 1.6.
There are probably far more elegant ways of doing things, but I don't really care what methods they use as long as they work.
No, it's one thing to argue you <i>want</i> a more static all or nothing gameplay, or that marines jumping isn't pretty on screenshots or in videos is a large enough issue. These views I can accept as valid even though I disagree. It's another thing entirely to claim it's a bad mechanic because you personally can't outspeed a backwards moving marine in NS1. That I can't accept as a reason to design NS2 differently from what I would like.
They fixed the goldsource air control bug in the 1990's...when they didn't do anything.
How to dodge as a marine:
1. Turn your mouse right about 90 degrees.
2. Simultaneusly strafe right and jump while performing the smooth 90 degree turn.
+++ If you want to continue without a slowdown, either perform the jump while ducking, or land on level above your starting position.
Now you know how to exploit it. Now go pwn everybody with your completely imbalanced marine.
No, seriously, knowing how to do it isn't that exiting. Learning how to use it is much more fun in every possible way.