Basically Necrosis, what you are suggesting we should try before we post are things such as Germany building another factory in france int he tabletop game of Axis and Allies. It just doesnt work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but people have tried new strats in their gameplay <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shall echo the other poster by asking which people, and which strats. Are we talking radically new strats here, or are we talking "move that turret a little to the left".
We're not seeing examples here of radical clan commanding strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it disturbing how distrustful you are of me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it odd anyone would keep logs for so long. Unless said person planned to use said logs in some far off future discussion to entrap some unsuspecting debater. Or do you not think HAMBONE made his comments in confidence?
So Nad, how did these counters work? Why did each one fail? How did you improve on this in subsequent attempts? Which combinations worked? Are you even a decent comm to begin with, or have you been copying someone else's play style for the past 2 years?
As you so slowly observed, I am commenting on a long run of victory on the tabletop circuit. Winning is winning, tbh it lacks its thrill when you get older. It becomes more fun to find the new strat, or deliberately challenge yourself. You'll learn.
If you think there's a huge gulf of difference between NS and tabletop gaming, or other RTS games, then you're pretty wrong. Sure, there's an element of luck, but in tabletop gaming we call that "die rolls". In other RTS games its the matter of what the other guy upgraded first. Did he go armour, or did he go weaponry?
NS works on the same level. Further, a truly great strategist will turn his hand to any game. You get some people who are only ever good at ONE game, and then there's the real champs who are good at several games, or more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> some of the best competitive players in the entire ns playing world have made comments in this topic, all of which spoke against your opinions. Does that tell you ANYTHING?! Maybe these people just know these things better than you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments such as... SC are NOT FUN. SC are OVERPOWERED. How constructive.
Do we see comments such as "I have tried the following strats, here are demos"? Do we see comments such as "you know it might be just these 3 maps"? Do we see comments such as "Well the catpack rush only worked up to X point"?
No we dont. Not from the bulk of posters, at any rate.
Screaming how NOT FUN it is, or how overpowered it is, doesn't really contribute. Where's the solid examples of real counters? All I see are comments about "anyone can predict how these counters will work". It doesnt take a genius to work out that mindgames and a real playthrough are two different things. Thats why all products get beta tested. Its why people test pipes for cracks. Oh sure, you can run a mindgame about how the Titanic will never sink, but thats not going to prepare you for when it DOES sink. Do you think the shipbuilders listened to anyone who said "what if it hits an iceberg?". No, I can imagine in the dim and distant past, an elite group of shipbuilders telling the apprentice:
"OMFGNOOB, IT CANT HIT AN ICEBERG" "YOU'VE NEVER BUILT SHIPS" "OGM ICEBERGS DONT EXIST"
Consider that players are offering you real alternatives - experiment with unorthodox play styles. Consider that its just a few maps. Consider that SC is radically different to MC/DC and thus needs to be countered in an entirely different way.
But no! In the short gap we've had the latest release, the competitive world has tested every conceivable combination and been defeated by sensory! Every map is horribly unbalanced if sc is used first! It cant be the maps, it cant be our strat, it must be the chamber!
So so funny.. mine ladders were only discovered out of boredom. I didn't think you'd have time to be bored in a competitive game. How odd!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We try new things <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such as? Do tell. Illuminate us.
Sad fact of the matter is, even if I rolled in here as the number one competitive player in the world, you'd all STILL not listen. If I posted as your average clanner, you'd say its a nub clan. Why so afraid? Is your ego so fragile that you can't accept that the solution is outside the grasp of your mind?
If the top two clans in the world said you couldn't play to save your life, would you even take their message on board? Hell no, it'd be a big crapthrowing monkey extravaganza.
All you big shots, with your "we try stuff", and "oh yeah we did this thing, and this thing, and I can actually remember all the stuff we did, but we did it", lets have some hard examples.
Where the strat came from, how well it worked, why it failed, and how it was improved upon. You know, feedback. Constructive feedback. Hooting nerf and throwing poo doesn't exactly help when it comes to gauging how strong SC is.
So far all we see is one big singleminded diatribe that "SC IS OVERPOWERED". Noone's put forth solid and genuine examples of how their counters failed in a match.
You know, if you want, send me some demos, I'll give you some suggestions. Ask some of your friends who play SC, or Homeworld, or X Com. Do something a bit more constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Two decades worth of experience in something THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THIS AT ALL. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, sure, because a person can only think strategically about one thing, and you can't translate that to other things. Because a worker rush in SC is totally different to a scout rush in Armada 2. Because building a Class 1 Marauder squad in Starship Troopers is totally different to an HA train in NS.
Yeah, toooootally different. Oh pleeaaase.
Players have suggested grenades, obs, electrification, focusing on hives instead of res, avoidng rather than confronting on enemy ground. People have gave you suggestions ripped almost verbatim from the Art of War. What more do you need? If you've all tried these out in REAL GAMES then c'mon, lets hear what happened.
I'm sorry, but "It didnt work" and "we try stuff" doesn't cut it with me. You're all welcome to keep saying strategy game X is totally unlike strategy game Y, but you just look like fools. Lets have some words from a top level commander who has tried all the above strats. Lets hear how they failed. Lets hear how they attempted to improve.
If you can't provide this, then what sort of credibility can you bring to the demand for a specific chamber nerf as opposed to map editing or boosting marine attributes to compensate?
What will happen if SC gets nerfed anyhow? Back to the old MC/DC strat and the same old gaming? I for one have had enough of formulaic NS with the same opening and the same finish. The more variety the better. Shakes things up, makes them more of a challenge.
So come on - hard examples of tried and failed strategies. Details of how they failed, and how improvements where attempted. Then we can consider how marine upgrades may need to be changed to counter, or if JUST TANITH needs to be altered in order to make the map more balanced. Witch-hunting one chamber because "we tried stuff and it didnt work" is pretty weak.
Ah, comrade, a link, how handy.
I see Fana is a top level fade. Congrats Fana.
Do you command much Fana? How do you try to counter SC? As a fade player, what do you think marines need to do to counter SC? I value your first hand experience.
I followed the Amped link to Mr.Ben's interview too.
I see Ben is a top commander. Excellent! Ben, I notice you didn't say too much about countering SC. As you're a top commander I am genuinely curious to know how you attempted and failed to counter SC? At which point did you decide to give up experimenting? Or are you still experimenting and adapting? I ask because if anyone's tried nub or unorthodox strats to counter SC, you're probably the one to have tried.
Thats what I like to see, creative input and discussion from strategic thinkers. That way we can all move forwards towards a common solution.
EDIT
Oo, more comments, have to cover them quickly.
Fred, you tried catpacks, you say it didn't work.
How did you try them.
Why did they not work.
How did you attempt to improve this.
Why did that improvement fail.
When did you give up and decide to say its just overpowered?
As the axis are somewhat underpowered in the original axis and allies, you would be one who builds that factory in western europe just to see if it actually works?
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but people have tried new strats in their gameplay <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shall echo the other poster by asking which people, and which strats. Are we talking radically new strats here, or are we talking "move that turret a little to the left".
We're not seeing examples here of radical clan commanding strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find it disturbing how distrustful you are of me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it odd anyone would keep logs for so long. Unless said person planned to use said logs in some far off future discussion to entrap some unsuspecting debater. Or do you not think HAMBONE made his comments in confidence?
So Nad, how did these counters work? Why did each one fail? How did you improve on this in subsequent attempts? Which combinations worked? Are you even a decent comm to begin with, or have you been copying someone else's play style for the past 2 years?
As you so slowly observed, I am commenting on a long run of victory on the tabletop circuit. Winning is winning, tbh it lacks its thrill when you get older. It becomes more fun to find the new strat, or deliberately challenge yourself. You'll learn.
If you think there's a huge gulf of difference between NS and tabletop gaming, or other RTS games, then you're pretty wrong. Sure, there's an element of luck, but in tabletop gaming we call that "die rolls". In other RTS games its the matter of what the other guy upgraded first. Did he go armour, or did he go weaponry?
NS works on the same level. Further, a truly great strategist will turn his hand to any game. You get some people who are only ever good at ONE game, and then there's the real champs who are good at several games, or more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> some of the best competitive players in the entire ns playing world have made comments in this topic, all of which spoke against your opinions. Does that tell you ANYTHING?! Maybe these people just know these things better than you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments such as... SC are NOT FUN. SC are OVERPOWERED. How constructive.
Do we see comments such as "I have tried the following strats, here are demos"? Do we see comments such as "you know it might be just these 3 maps"? Do we see comments such as "Well the catpack rush only worked up to X point"?
No we dont. Not from the bulk of posters, at any rate.
Screaming how NOT FUN it is, or how overpowered it is, doesn't really contribute. Where's the solid examples of real counters? All I see are comments about "anyone can predict how these counters will work". It doesnt take a genius to work out that mindgames and a real playthrough are two different things. Thats why all products get beta tested. Its why people test pipes for cracks. Oh sure, you can run a mindgame about how the Titanic will never sink, but thats not going to prepare you for when it DOES sink. Do you think the shipbuilders listened to anyone who said "what if it hits an iceberg?". No, I can imagine in the dim and distant past, an elite group of shipbuilders telling the apprentice:
"OMFGNOOB, IT CANT HIT AN ICEBERG" "YOU'VE NEVER BUILT SHIPS" "OGM ICEBERGS DONT EXIST"
Consider that players are offering you real alternatives - experiment with unorthodox play styles. Consider that its just a few maps. Consider that SC is radically different to MC/DC and thus needs to be countered in an entirely different way.
But no! In the short gap we've had the latest release, the competitive world has tested every conceivable combination and been defeated by sensory! Every map is horribly unbalanced if sc is used first! It cant be the maps, it cant be our strat, it must be the chamber!
So so funny.. mine ladders were only discovered out of boredom. I didn't think you'd have time to be bored in a competitive game. How odd!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We try new things <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such as? Do tell. Illuminate us.
Sad fact of the matter is, even if I rolled in here as the number one competitive player in the world, you'd all STILL not listen. If I posted as your average clanner, you'd say its a nub clan. Why so afraid? Is your ego so fragile that you can't accept that the solution is outside the grasp of your mind?
If the top two clans in the world said you couldn't play to save your life, would you even take their message on board? Hell no, it'd be a big crapthrowing monkey extravaganza.
All you big shots, with your "we try stuff", and "oh yeah we did this thing, and this thing, and I can actually remember all the stuff we did, but we did it", lets have some hard examples.
Where the strat came from, how well it worked, why it failed, and how it was improved upon. You know, feedback. Constructive feedback. Hooting nerf and throwing poo doesn't exactly help when it comes to gauging how strong SC is.
So far all we see is one big singleminded diatribe that "SC IS OVERPOWERED". Noone's put forth solid and genuine examples of how their counters failed in a match.
You know, if you want, send me some demos, I'll give you some suggestions. Ask some of your friends who play SC, or Homeworld, or X Com. Do something a bit more constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Two decades worth of experience in something THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THIS AT ALL. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, sure, because a person can only think strategically about one thing, and you can't translate that to other things. Because a worker rush in SC is totally different to a scout rush in Armada 2. Because building a Class 1 Marauder squad in Starship Troopers is totally different to an HA train in NS.
Yeah, toooootally different. Oh pleeaaase.
Players have suggested grenades, obs, electrification, focusing on hives instead of res, avoidng rather than confronting on enemy ground. People have gave you suggestions ripped almost verbatim from the Art of War. What more do you need? If you've all tried these out in REAL GAMES then c'mon, lets hear what happened.
I'm sorry, but "It didnt work" and "we try stuff" doesn't cut it with me. You're all welcome to keep saying strategy game X is totally unlike strategy game Y, but you just look like fools. Lets have some words from a top level commander who has tried all the above strats. Lets hear how they failed. Lets hear how they attempted to improve.
If you can't provide this, then what sort of credibility can you bring to the demand for a specific chamber nerf as opposed to map editing or boosting marine attributes to compensate?
What will happen if SC gets nerfed anyhow? Back to the old MC/DC strat and the same old gaming? I for one have had enough of formulaic NS with the same opening and the same finish. The more variety the better. Shakes things up, makes them more of a challenge.
So come on - hard examples of tried and failed strategies. Details of how they failed, and how improvements where attempted. Then we can consider how marine upgrades may need to be changed to counter, or if JUST TANITH needs to be altered in order to make the map more balanced. Witch-hunting one chamber because "we tried stuff and it didnt work" is pretty weak.
Ah, comrade, a link, how handy.
I see Fana is a top level fade. Congrats Fana.
Do you command much Fana? How do you try to counter SC? As a fade player, what do you think marines need to do to counter SC? I value your first hand experience.
I followed the Amped link to Mr.Ben's interview too.
I see Ben is a top commander. Excellent! Ben, I notice you didn't say too much about countering SC. As you're a top commander I am genuinely curious to know how you attempted and failed to counter SC? At which point did you decide to give up experimenting? Or are you still experimenting and adapting? I ask because if anyone's tried nub or unorthodox strats to counter SC, you're probably the one to have tried.
Thats what I like to see, creative input and discussion from strategic thinkers. That way we can all move forwards towards a common solution.
EDIT
Oo, more comments, have to cover them quickly.
Fred, you tried catpacks, you say it didn't work.
How did you try them.
Why did they not work.
How did you attempt to improve this.
Why did that improvement fail.
When did you give up and decide to say its just overpowered? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU ARE CLEVER!
Sorry Comrade, I missed the bit where you told me how you tried and failed.
I am interested in that part, because then we can collectively consider a balanced solution.
Tjosan -
Yes, I would try it in a practice game against myself or one of my friends. Because you never know. You'd be surprised how doing odd things can yield unexpected beneficial results. After all, thats why you're bipedal and not walking on all fours.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 05:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry Comrade, I missed the bit where you told me how you tried and failed.
I am interested in that part, because then we can collectively consider a balanced solution.
Tjosan -
Yes, I would try it in a practice game against myself or one of my friends. Because you never know. You'd be surprised how doing odd things can yield unexpected beneficial results. After all, thats why you're bipedal and not walking on all fours. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you ever played axis and allies?
why don't you make a clan and come show us how easy it is to counter sensory...
the problem with sensory is that it REQUIRES lots of field Obs, armor1, shotguns, and LOTS of welders on the field in the first ~4 minutes. Marines just don't have the res.
NS is NOT SC, or X COM, or Homeworld. The strategy part of the game can only reach so far. Its almost never as simple as changing strategys in this game. Why you insist on every unit being the exact same and having stats that don't change just blows my mind. Variables change based on where the battle is taking place, and variables such as focus vs a0 marines makes it even harder to innovate without becoming horribly owned, especially vs sc in this version.
Im tired of trying to tell you, and as im currently 5000 miles away from my home computer i cannot post demos, but i think the fact that almost NOONE agrees with you or sees things the same as you might give you a hint that maaaaaaybe you miiiiiiight be wrong just this once...that thought ever cross your mind?
Im just talking out of my **** now but its hopeless to try and convince you otherwise
Hay guys stop being good at the game and it will be balanced because everyone will suck. Or how about spend all of your resflow fighting sensories instead of doing something useful like winning the game. Or how about use pub strats because on the pub I play on we use crazy strats like dropping our guns and running around with knives electrifying everything and we always win against scs.
STOP ASSUMING PEOPLE ARE STUPID! IDIOT STRATS WILL NOT WORK IN MATCHPLAY THE SAME AS THEY WILL ON YOUR PUB THAT DOESN'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO KILL ALIENS WITHIN 30000 FEET OF THE HIVE!
We've tried many many many many different strats to combat sensories at present and lets face it most will not work and the ones that do require you to be able to hold 5 res nodes and prevent the second hive going up. Unless you dominate in the early game as marines and somehow manage to keep the sensories down, or lockdown a key area with a phase gate, mines, and an obs, you will be screwed. At hive 2 sensories are even worse because you can't get anywhere near a hive without scs giving you away with innate sof. Add in focus fades and skulks and it's so much fun that I don't really like scrimming anymore.
Something needs to be tweaked to tone down sensories a tad while still keeping them viable as a starting chamber. Personally I think NGE has a couple of good solutions for this and that there are other viable solutions being discussed that will help. Don't just assume that "clanners" are trying to play the game the same way as they were before.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We've tried many many many many different strats to combat sensories <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then would you answer Necrosis's questions instead of yelling at him? What strats were tested, exactly? Who tested them against whom, and on what maps? What worked, what didn't? Were the failed strats changed and retried?
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Mar 18 2005, 05:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Mar 18 2005, 05:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We've tried many many many many different strats to combat sensories <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then would you answer Necrosis's questions instead of yelling at him? What strats were tested, exactly? Who tested them against whom, and on what maps? What worked, what didn't? Were the failed strats changed and retried? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much the only viable early game marine strat vs sensories is to get armor1 as fast as possible (which is what is done usually anyway), and spam welders and Observatories in the field. Hope that you have time to weld. There isn't really huge variance there. If you do anything BUT get A1 very fast you lose. If you don't get Obs in the field, you lose... if you don't have all your marines with welders, you lose.
After that it just comes down to the fight at the second hive. Where the marines typically are low on res, since its very easy to kill marine res cappers with cloaking.
I'd say that Sensory is probably not the best Hive1 chamber, but that it is definitely imbalanced (compared to MC or DC) in the first 5 minutes or so... They buffed Sensory in a place where it was fine and didn't do anything to help Sensory where it actually needed help...
Anyway I wouldn't expect a detailed account of who tested what vs who because they are just scrims and nobody really records them.
Electrification = too much res + owned by gorges at hive 2 because your whole res flow went to holding nodes not stopping hive 2.
Locking down hives = hard to get to the hives through sc zones and you are putting all your marines in one spot so you get base rushed or don't get any nodes.
Placing obs in key spots = obs get owned by skulks in about 15 seconds flat so you need phase tech and mines to hold them when added to obs cost of 20 each is way too much res.
Motion tracking rush = will give you rough idea of where skulks are which you should know already and often makes you look in the wrong spot for skulks.
Phase rush = you need welders to combat focus to even get a phase up and it delays a1.
HA rush = you need a1 early, plus an obs, plus phasegates, plus upgraded armory, plus your team has to spend it's whole time welding or focus will own them quick.
I mean these are the most popular ideas and frankly none of them work for crap. Most of the time it's plain old hope the sensories are in a spot you can get to easily and take them out before the cloaked, focus, sof skulks get you. And while you're at it hope that their fades suck because if they don't you're going to get raped hardcore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We're not seeing examples here of radical clan commanding strategy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know why anyone here is talking about radical change. If you understood the concept of NS strategy before, then you still do now - if you were an idiot before, you still are. If you think there is innovation to be done, you obviously didn't understand and don't understand now. The goals haven't changed, the same things have just gotten harder - SC means significantly more flexible cloaking now (pray to god they don't sodomize your capper), Cloak/Focus zones and of course Skulks with 10% extra durability across the board regardless of chamber.
The most effective methods to winning haven't changed much at all, you're just going to encounter more resistance and need to execute more perfectly now. Thats not in the least bit innovative.
To make an example, the easiest SC counter strat is the following : Bog standard a1 tech start, cap 4 nodes, dedicate 2 marines to spotshooting down chokepoints if the map is linear enough while you cap, get an obs up, ping, push, build a forward obs, drop a phasegate, hope you did it in under 4 minutes and start playing SG/welders vs Fades until Prototech is up. With HA siege the primary Hive, with JPs hunt down their chambers then kill the SC-less Hive.
Thats an entire competitive round in a nutshell. Its really not so different except alot of innovative options are not viable now due to the ease and power of setting up a single SC. RIP good ol' Obs/Nodeblocking strat.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So Nad, how did these counters work? Why did each one fail? How did you improve on this in subsequent attempts? Which combinations worked? Are you even a decent comm to begin with, or have you been copying someone else's play style for the past 2 years?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nadagast plays for Exigent, one of the two presumed best clans in USA right now. He does not, however, play commander. Yet again you prove your lack of knowledge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you think there's a huge gulf of difference between NS and tabletop gaming, or other RTS games, then you're pretty wrong. Sure, there's an element of luck, but in tabletop gaming we call that "die rolls". In other RTS games its the matter of what the other guy upgraded first. Did he go armour, or did he go weaponry?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you continue with your lack of knowledge. It's so obvious to anyone that has ever played ns competitive that you have no clue what you're talking about, that it's not even funny. The number one thing that wins games in NS, is player skill. How good players are at shooting aliens. How good skulks are at coordinated ambushes. How good Fades are at staying alive.
And if you try to reply to this with **** about "omg lol that's why you can't counter SCs then cause you need to use new and innovative strategies and not rambo lol!", you're just proving how much of a fool you are. The entire problem with SCs, and aliens in general right now, is that aliens have it a lot easier, while marines have it a lot harder. Hence, it's easier to win alien. Either you start trusting us, who have far more experience and knowledge than you, or you better back your words up with action and actually try it out yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But no! In the short gap we've had the latest release, the competitive world has tested every conceivable combination and been defeated by sensory! Every map is horribly unbalanced if sc is used first! It cant be the maps, it cant be our strat, it must be the chamber!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just don't get it, do you? Realize that you're the laughing stock of the entire community right now, and that the only people who support your claims are those with an equally lacking knowledge of the game as you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So so funny.. mine ladders were only discovered out of boredom. I didn't think you'd have time to be bored in a competitive game. How odd!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Idiot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All you big shots, with your "we try stuff", and "oh yeah we did this thing, and this thing, and I can actually remember all the stuff we did, but we did it", lets have some hard examples.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We don't share our tactics. You know. The whole idea of not giving your opponents advantages? Oh wait, you've never actually played competitive. My mistake!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, if you want, send me some demos, I'll give you some suggestions. Ask some of your friends who play SC, or Homeworld, or X Com. Do something a bit more constructive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about you send me some demos, and I might be gracious enough to help you improve your game? Some players even charge for lessons...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, sure, because a person can only think strategically about one thing, and you can't translate that to other things. Because a worker rush in SC is totally different to a scout rush in Armada 2. Because building a Class 1 Marauder squad in Starship Troopers is totally different to an HA train in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All the games you mention are played with static units with set statistics. They don't actually think or fight on their own, they don't have skill, they're just pieces on a board. You throw dies and remove a piece, and then do it all over again. Get it into your head, the FPS element in NS is far more prominent than the RTS aspect. If you'd ever played competitive for any amount of time you'd know this.
Hey, here's an example! Even if you drop HA and HMGs for your entire team, there's no guarantee that they'll even get out of base, that they'll even get to the hive. You don't throw dies and compare stats to see who wins and loses in NS, you actually use FPS skill to overpower your opponents. Do you even know what FPS skill is? I would tell you to go back to your tabletop gaming, but that's probably redundant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Players have suggested grenades, obs, electrification, focusing on hives instead of res, avoidng rather than confronting on enemy ground. People have gave you suggestions ripped almost verbatim from the Art of War. What more do you need? If you've all tried these out in REAL GAMES then c'mon, lets hear what happened.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenades are useless. We already use observatories to a great extent. Elecrification tactics have been tested over and over by a multitude of different clans in different skill levels. It doesn't work against alien tactics that adapt. Locking down hives can work, but usually doesn't because aliens overpower your marines. The usual result even if you do manage to lock down both hives is either: A. Aliens have way too much res because you haven't had time to kill their RTs, and they mow you over with Fades and Oni. B. You can't hold the hive lockdown because you can't afford upgrades, medspam or weapons because you haven't had time to secure RTs. Avoiding enemy territory is an often used tactic on certain maps such as nothing, where you can dominate the top level of the map with impunity, while teching up. This is a harsh tradeoff, however, and you won't be able to take down enemy res, which will lose you the game on any other map. It works very well as a counter to SCs on nothing, but none of the other maps have the same layout as nothing! It's a one-map no-dupe strategy, which does in no way counter the efficiency of SCs in general play. Not to mention the fact that nothing is hardly played at all in competitive due to its bias. Here's a demo of the tactic in question, btw. Have fun, you might even learn something: <a href='http://esports.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=1654' target='_blank'>http://esports.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=1654</a> .
Do you even know how a competitive game works? How fast it is compared to public? Fades in competitive usually finish gestating around 3:30-4:30, and after that your entire team needs to be outfitted with weapons and upgrades to be able to survive, because top tier Fades are incredibly skilled and cut through basic marines like chaff. Most competitive games are usually decided at around 4 minutes into the game, although there are exceptions. You can't even grasp how competitive play works, because you've never played it.
Why can't you just get it into your head?! You have no clue about how this game works! Arguing with you is like arguing with a five year old boy, who is absolutely sure of himself, and refuses to realize that he has no experience in the matter at hand, yet believes that there is no way he can be wrong, and there is no reason for him to educate himself because he's already right!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see Fana is a top level fade. Congrats Fana.
Do you command much Fana? How do you try to counter SC? As a fade player, what do you think marines need to do to counter SC? I value your first hand experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no real counter to focus fades, apart from massively overpowering them with superiour firepower. In 3.0b5 this was possible, because aliens didn't overpower marines in the early game. Now, this has changed, however, and marines can't get the advantage they need to overpower during the mid game any more. But you already know this, because you've tested strategies and competitiv... Oh wait.
You seem to put a lot of stock in commanders, a lot of importance in their skill. You know something? I'm not surprised. Pubbers tend to do that a lot. They expect the commander to run every aspect of the game in organized play, because they've never played it and have no idea how it works. Most of the time, the commander works strictly as a medspamming machine. The commander needs to focus so much time on keeping marines a live, that it leaves little time and energy for controlling every aspect of the game. Commanders also control strategy in game, but just about everything in clan games are planned beforehand, by the players on the team in unison, all participating with their advice on the final tactic. In game, situational awareness is one of the most important skills for a field marine, and by that I mean the knowledge to always know what he needs to do to win the game.
This is one of the major things that separate top players from skilled players, and also why the commander isn't as important as you may think. Yes, the commander is extremely important when it comes to medpacks, ammo, telling people where to go and what to do ingame, clicking the various upgrade buttons and keeping tabs of how much res he has at his disposal, and how much res aliens have at their disposal, as well as alien hive situation. The commander does not, however, chose how the match plays out with his brilliant strategical choices. The field marines do, with their actions and skill, while the commander provides the resources needed for this.
Let me again just remind you -- in case you've already forgotten, you never know! -- this is not a table top game. You don't throw dies and compare stats to determine which cleverly painted tabletop avatar dies and which survives. Player skill does. Competitive strategies are created with this in mind, and are perfected to improve this potential for player skill dominance.
Let me repeat this once and for all:
You've never actually played competitive, you have no idea how the game works. How can you even begin to believe that you have a clue?! Do you have some sort of cranial illness that prevents you from thinking properly? Are you just plain and simple dumb? All good questions.
Anybody who has a post count in the thousands on this board and hasn't been around as a dev or a serious, accredited, recognized, skilled player on this board i look at sideways.
Also, when you aren't an AUTHORITATIVE EXPERT on the subject in question, don't argue with those who are. Don't argue with Nadagast, he's led the most historically succesful clan in Natural Selection. Don't argue with Fana, the undisputed TOP european player. Don't argue with MrBen, the guy who freaking made the 3.0 ns_eclipse, ns_veil, and ns_nothing maps and as an understatement is an accomplished commander. Don't argue with freddeh, he knows wha he's talking about, he's another top north american player.
I would like to be considered credible. I'm the commander of a top CAL-Omega team. Dude, believe me when I tell you that by the numbers, sensory chambers are broken. I pushed 2 strats really hard since 3.0 came out and standard strats obviously were failing against sc's. Both were unothodox. One is a 2 hive lockdown, and one is a HA rush. In the HA rush, you have to allow for the second hive to actually go up. Its going to go up in the middle of the seige. Our heavy teams got owned by 2 hive sensory aliens every time we've tried the strat or any variation of it. Not just beaten.. owned. 4 W2 HA guys can't handle aliens at 2 hives with sc's. The two hive lockdown has won once against a team that was far below our skill level. We prevented the second hive from even dropping, had both hives locked, full tech minus proto, and res control. It took us 28 minutes to win the game. We had both hives locked at 3:15 and res control at 7-8 min.
There are some unorthodox strats. If a no armor 1 HA rush, or a double hive lock isn't unorthodox, i don't know what is m8.
edit: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89577&view=findpost&p=1407452' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....dpost&p=1407452</a> There is a link to a post of mine talking about why rines can't by the numbers have what they need to fight sc's. And Fana has owned you. Stop posting.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 18 2005, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 18 2005, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't argue with MrBen, the guy who freaking made the 3.0 ns_eclipse, ns_veil, and ns_nothing maps and as an understatement is an accomplished commander. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MrBen <i>did</i> think that Sieges shouldn't do splashdamage, so please do argue with him. But he is right in this case, regardless of the irony that he dug his own grave in PTing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't argue with freddeh, he knows wha he's talking about, he's another top north american player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Mar 18 2005, 06:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Mar 18 2005, 06:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 18 2005, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 18 2005, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't argue with MrBen, the guy who freaking made the 3.0 ns_eclipse, ns_veil, and ns_nothing maps and as an understatement is an accomplished commander. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> MrBen <i>did</i> think that Sieges shouldn't do splashdamage, so please do argue with him. But he is right in this case, regardless of the irony that he dug his own grave in PTing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't argue with freddeh, he knows wha he's talking about, he's another top north american player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're fired for saying that. FOREVER. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Top = Well known delta player. You're a top player too saltz. I'm sorry if you felt left out.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 03:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Consider chess. Why do you think certain gambits and openings are referred to by specific names? Someone came up with it, thrashed people for a while, others adopted it, and eventually it became wholly accepted.
NS is no different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See, this is the fundamental flaw with your arguements. NS IS DIFFERENT. NS may be an RTS, but it is also an FPS. For example, in chess, there is no chance that the knight can defeat your queen when your queen attacked first. The queen will always win. In NS it's not like this. You cannot compare table top gaming, as you refer to it, to NS, because of this fundamental difference.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Mar 18 2005, 05:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Mar 18 2005, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Multiple obs = too much res.
Electrification = too much res + owned by gorges at hive 2 because your whole res flow went to holding nodes not stopping hive 2.
Locking down hives = hard to get to the hives through sc zones and you are putting all your marines in one spot so you get base rushed or don't get any nodes.
Placing obs in key spots = obs get owned by skulks in about 15 seconds flat so you need phase tech and mines to hold them when added to obs cost of 20 each is way too much res.
Motion tracking rush = will give you rough idea of where skulks are which you should know already and often makes you look in the wrong spot for skulks.
Phase rush = you need welders to combat focus to even get a phase up and it delays a1.
HA rush = you need a1 early, plus an obs, plus phasegates, plus upgraded armory, plus your team has to spend it's whole time welding or focus will own them quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now <i>that's</i> something we can work with. Res and scanning seem to be the really big obstacles to successfully countering SCs. Do you guys think any of these changes would be benificial?
1) Cheaper obs. If the obs only cost 10, 12 or 15 res (as opposed to 20) they could be dropped more frequently.
2) Longer lasting scans, so that buildings and aliens don't recloak as fast. I believe they recloak in only 2-3 seconds, so having them stay uncloaked for 5-10 might work.
3) Cheaper mines - so you can protect your obervatories more effectively. Right now it's 5 res for 4 mines; perhaps 3-4 res would be a better cost.
4) Cheaper welders, so that you can have more of them to weld teammates.
5) Give marines 5 more armor as a default. That way a focus bite is not an instant kill, but also requires a parasite or another bite to finish the job.
The problem isnt actually SCs, but how balance overall has affected SCs.
As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way.
Other than that, I confess my hatred for cloaking, and I feel something needs to be done about this upgrade to make it less frustrating, and perhaps even a bit fun, to play with SCs built.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nao+Mar 18 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nao @ Mar 18 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wouldn't you have to increase the cost of Motion Tracking to prevent constant MT rushing if the Obs cost were dropped? PG Tech Cost?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that becomes the end-all strategy, yes. However, to drop an armory, RT, obs, IP, armslab and get armor 1 take every penny a marine team has at the start; and that's without dropping any equipment. If a team rushed all of those, MT and PGs would still be delayed by their cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Would slowing down the alien midgame achieve the same effect? IE: making the hives take another minute to build?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Other than that, I confess my hatred for cloaking, and I feel something needs to be done about this upgrade to make it less frustrating, and perhaps even a bit fun, to play with SCs built.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Agreed. IMO the game would be far better with something in the place of cloaking.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Mar 19 2005, 01:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Mar 19 2005, 01:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now <i>that's</i> something we can work with. Res and scanning seem to be the really big obstacles to successfully countering SCs. Do you guys think any of these changes would be benificial?
1) Cheaper obs. If the obs only cost 10, 12 or 15 res (as opposed to 20) they could be dropped more frequently.
2) Longer lasting scans, so that buildings and aliens don't recloak as fast. I believe they recloak in only 2-3 seconds, so having them stay uncloaked for 5-10 might work.
3) Cheaper mines - so you can protect your obervatories more effectively. Right now it's 5 res for 4 mines; perhaps 3-4 res would be a better cost.
4) Cheaper welders, so that you can have more of them to weld teammates.
5) Give marines 5 more armor as a default. That way a focus bite is not an instant kill, but also requires a parasite or another bite to finish the job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Yes. I totally agree. It's been suggested by me and many others in other topics on this forum. This would make it easier to counter sensories, actually giving the marines a really viable way of doing it.
2) Scan length seems ok now, but observatories need to start with more energy. Right now they're pretty useless as they start with 20 energy (or was it 15?) and you need to wait to be able to scan. It should have at least 50 energy to start out with. This isn't really abuseable either, now that sieges have been nerfed.
3) Mines are fine right now. Lower cost will result in spammage.
4) Welders are ok, they're one of the most used items in comp play right now.
5) Too much balance testing would be needed to introduce this now. It might be a good idea, it might not. But it needs to be tested first, and I don't think dev team / pt team has the time for that right now. 5 more armor would give default lvl 1 armor too, although parasite would break it, which is a huge advantage.
In reply to tjosans comment about cloaking not being fun:
I don't think a single competitive player has ever commented on cloaking being fun, simply because it isn't. Not being able to see your enemy is extremely annoying, and with the increase in SC popularity, we'll be seeing a lot more of this. It's still fits a lot with NS though, and I think it should still stay in, as long as marines have an easy way to counter it. The most frustrating upgrade in the game, should not also be the most difficult to counter.
EDIT: I am in fact eternally sorry that this post got to the size it did, but I had to cover a lot of points, and felt that I had to illustrate the similarities between NS and XCom.
If you don't want to read it, don't. If you do, please do so at your own pace with a hot drink. We're all in this thread to analyse the chambers, so lets all ease up and treat each other as equals. We've all got the same problem, we're all coming up with the same counters, we're all making the same sort of suggestions for a fix.
Fundamentally we're similar, so lets discuss it as friends and try not to insinuate that each other is an idiot. If we were all idiots, we would not be thinking the same thoughts. Evidently we're all intelligent gamers, and its good to see. If we're all having the same problem, with the SAME counter, and the SAME possible solution, then its in our best interests to acknowledge our similarities and work together.
With that in mind, enjoy your hot drink, here starts the essay.
ORIGINAL POST STARTS HERE:
I'm chopping most of this post up because tbh its just easier to read if we work on the assumption that we're all equally intelligent as each other. Yes, believe it or not, this IS the short version.
I'm getting the short posts out of the way first. Then its the biggie. Please for the love of bunnies don't copy and paste the whole thing and slap a remark on the end. Its a waste of your time and of other forumgoers time. I'm trying to debate something out with people so we can get a definitive answer, I'm not after a muck slinging match.
Tjosan -
Not as much as I've played Risk. And tbh I'm actually more of a Diplomacy fan, which doesnt rely so much on piling up counters, but more about strategic support of key units. But hey, I'll play what I can get my hands on. Sadly no tabletop game really comes close to NS..... possibly Confrontation or Necromunda. Space Crusade really doesn't take into account individual player skill, whereas at least Necro has an exp system that mimics how people get good at certain things.
Alkiller -
Well you can go for chess, but to be honest I compare NS more to XCom and ST. I used chess only as an example of how games develop set openings and counters. You've probably played at least one XCom game, so you can see what I'm getting at here. NS has its set openings (a1, hello) but is more like XCom in that individual player ability is a decisive factor.
Freddeh -
In Xcom, units have differing stats and accuracies. As is the case with Starship Troopers. In both games it is the job of the commander to outfit his men as best he sees fit, then try to defeat an AI which (certainly in later XCom games) adapts to your own strategies.
You raised an excellent point about VARIABLES. I see you agree with myself that there are an awful lot of variables to consider when formulating comm plans.
Tell me then, do you think any person is capable of running a complete commanding simulation in their head, taking into account all of those variables? I don't believe so. Hence, I dry run everything. If the people who say "you can predict what will happen" aren't actually testing their theories, then you have to worry about the validity of their results.
Gunner -
Awesome. This is the info I'm after. Pretty much matches up with my own conclusions, tho there's obviously differences generally relying on skill. Focus fade generally not as scary on a pub, thank goodness.
TBH my money would be more on controlled electrification and locking a hive. The only other to worry about is the focus fade. Once you can wipe those out tho you've got an easier time of things. Its pubbish but I think with a bit of honing it might come up a bit better. Think of the reward tho, I mean whoever cracks SC is going to have a whale of a time in competitive play.
Saltzbad -
Ta for the input. Your strat seems (to me) to be a honing of standard play. Hear me out, but I think perhaps that thats why its failing.
What I worry about is that if the answer is just to nerf the SC, does it just make it more like DC/MC and thus mean you don't need to make much variation to your plan according to chamber? Personally I thought the concept was that each chamber needed its own counter, as opposed to a "catch all" counter that rarely/never failed.
Certainly in the last few betas it was getting pretty stagnant on my side of the fence, I mean feel free to tell me that the comp side was a hotbed of activity, but on the pub side it devolved into being the same old same old.
Fana -
Yes, I see Nad said he doesnt comm. TBH I suspected that to be the case but its always nice to hear it from the source.
A cynic would proceed to rip apart Nad because it would seem he has no experience of NS clan commanding either.
I, however, am not a cynic, and what I see is common ground between us both. Tho some of it seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> that you're the laughing stock of the entire community right now <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't in fact care less as to your opinion, because the fact is I don't have to worry about finding a counter to sensory. On the pub circuit, all is relatively well. In fact this was the case before, when people were worried about the clan scene dying. I tried to help with advice because my primary concern is the continuation of the game, NS.
The fact is also that anyone with any wit is going to question comments such as "we tried stuff" "it didnt work". If I was to say "we tried stuff" "it worked", would you not demand evidence? Turnabout is fair play, my young friend. I just like to hear what people have tried so that I can be CERTAIN that all avenues have been exhausted. "We tried stuff" does not inspire confidence in me, and hardly helps towards a positive solution. You're a playtester, does your PT report consist of "I tried stuff, it didn't work"??
Yes I imagined that to be the case also. Solution, why not gather your little friends, find a non-competitive PTer, and submit all your attempted counters to him or her?
I mean, do you not think its a bit silly to do the chimp stuff but at the same time noone is actually handing information out about how woeful it is?
On a side note, you get more out of competitive play if you share your secrets. Nothing more challenging than trying to break your own strat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All the games you mention are played with static units with set statistics <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On another level, individual player skill is just a big rack of statistics too. Assuming you play X Com properly, you will inevitable find yourself with a squad that have differening strengths. You can of course use an editor to max your stats, or just hire and fire anyone below a certain minimum score. However that just spoils the challenge doesn it?
I mean from XCom you have encumbrance, you have throwing skill, shooting skill, strength, morale, psi defence, etc. In ST you have accuracy, morale, differening suits of armour..... fundamentally its identical to player skill in NS. Some players shoot better than others. Some are exceptional fades but couldn't comm to save their life. You shouldn't be so dismissive of it.
The FPS and RTS aspect are interlinked. You can try to crunch it and just hire 6 people with the highest stats, or you take people with differening stats, train them up, learn their foibles, and put them to best use. In NS, you can't treat every player as the same, and again you can't do that in XCom or ST.
Variables, my friend, are where its at. Feel free to say that an accuracy of 85 is totally different to your friend having crackshot aim, but to most gamers its going to be pretty similar. To say its totally different is really unfair to the amount of variables that go into squad RTS games. I mean you can go further still and expand into the realm of the sports sim. You take the toughest guy in Speedball 2 and you make him into your star blocker. Its all about playing to strengths, and if you play enough RTS <i>and</i> are fully aware of your teams strengths, then ultimately you're going to enjoy more successes than losses. This is also a core component of the Art of War.
Further, even in WC/SC you can go for armour upgrades over weapon upgrades. You can shun some units entirely. All depends on your strat.
No, I'm afraid there's an awful lot of similarities between these games, if you open your eyes to it.
BTW, I had my fill of FPS skill in Q2 and both versions of AvP. TBH I've had a bigger buzz from playing Sinistar in the arcades. But go figure. In any case, stop to consider that you don't fully understand how RTS games work, especially if you think its all about identical units with fixed stats. Most of the best RTS games involve differing strats between teams, and the really REALLY good RTS games involve differing strates between units on the same side. Gaining experience, etc. Play a few then come back to me.
Now, you and I have had to wade through a load of peripheral text because you don't see stat based RTS games as similar to NS. Your following comments are the sort that I'm after. We're both intelligent, can't you accept I know how to play FPS games and I'll accept that you've played RTS games but don't see the magic of stats?
Thanks for an honest demo. I'll get an account at some point so I can watch it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you even know how a competitive game works? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I don't. I'm totally clueless, I've never watched a demo, I don't play with clanners, I've lived in a bubble for my entire life. Why so hostile? Your last paragraph just agreed with my suggestion of avoidance, so why follow it up with immature comments on the obvious? You can see that I'm giving realistic suggestions that you've actually attempted, so that should be clue enough that at the very least I we're thinking along the same wavelength.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most competitive games are usually decided at around 4 minutes into the game <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to shock you but thats generally how pub games go too. I know how this game works just as well as you. If I'm so nub, why are we both coming up with the same ideas? Why am I matching ideas with other people?
If I was 100% self righteous, I would not be asking for clan comments and feedback on how they've attempted to counter SC. If I was a egotistical teenangster I'd have typed out some trash about "ogm learn to counter, tagnub" and this thread would be locked.
As it stands, I have asked for demos, asked for attempted strats, any sort of proof that people are genuinely trying to counter SC instead of running straight for the nerf stick. Thats not the behaviour of an egomaniac. I am concerned that strats have not been experimented with, and hence I make suggestions trying to help people out. If you can't see that, fine, because nothing I say will change that opinion. But consider we're coming up with the same suggestions, we're both seeing the same problems, so in the end am I really so nub as you've convinced yourself I am?
The only difference is I'm here looking to find out what the competitive community have tried in order to counter SC. I know what I've tried, I'm seeking out answers just in case we've missed something. If we can turn round to the dev team and say "we have definitively tried the following" then at least we're in a better position to see SC adjusted in some way. In any event its more constructive that "we tried stuff" - irrespective of how terrified people are that their strat might get out.
I didn't think there was any other counter to fades. I had hoped that there was some uber strat, because just blattering them seemed a bit desperate. Generally on pub play versus a decent fade you have to weather the storm and hope you get lucky. Funny you should mention it, we have tested strategies. Regardless of which section of the community you're in, EVERYONE wants to find a way to easily deal with focus fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of the time, the commander works strictly as a medspamming machine <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine, ok, whatever you wish to call "the guy what invents our tactical plays". In pub play the commander makes it up on the spot. For you guys I presume its made up before hand based on demos and what knowledge you can scrap together. However, the point is that there's a player who thinks up the tactics that the team use. Some groups have 2-3 players who pool their thoughts, some have the whole team pooling ideas. Makes no difference, I'm dealing with the creation of tactics, be it by one person or the whole unit.
Again you close with a very dismissive viewpoint of tabletop randomness. I can however easily think of how "luck" can interfere with player skill.
Player could have a bad day Players fan could mysteriously die and his PC's internals turn into toffee Player could be ill Player could have forgotten to charge his optical mouse Player was rubbing his eyes just at the moment a skulk rounded the corner.
Random dicerolling is close enough to simulate random occurrences. Its pretty straightforward.
So, since you answered some of my questions, I shall answer yours.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've never actually played competitive, you have no idea how the game works. How can you even begin to believe that you have a clue?! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Odd that we're coming up with the same attempts at solutions? I understand how skill works, how tactics are required, I'm familiar with the counter (such as it is) for a focus fade, I understand how certain events alter individual player skill. On a more fundamental level, I've also edited the alien animations and played about with the guts of the game. I think I'm pretty well aware of how it works. Either that, or you're as dumb as I am since your solutions are equivalent to mine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you have some sort of cranial illness that prevents you from thinking properly? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, I'm the one with the winning record you know. Perhaps I do think differently, but its the winning type of different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are you just plain and simple dumb? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I am dumb, then what are you, with your identical counters and identical situations? Can't you see the similarities? Or is that the problem - you CAN see the similarities and you're worried some lowly pubber with no clan experience can slap up a list of counters just as good as your own? Don't feel threatened. If I was a bit younger maybe I'd be doing the competitive thing too. Just as you get older you don't have the time to dedicate to serious competitive play. Its why I left nearly all competitive gaming, at any rate.
Router -
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> standard strats obviously were failing against sc's <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, the response to this is just a bit too obvious for me.
In any case, I would have went for the hive lock. Not a double hive lock, but taking one and at least pressuring the other long enough so that when it DID finally start going up, you could have it down before it popped.
Second, being a member of a successful team doesn't necessarily mean you're the one carrying it. Third, if your practice sessions don't include trying new strats, you're not practicing enough - I don't care what Ben's input on that is, I'm talking from tactical experience. Don't just take my word for it - the worlds armed forces constantly experiment with new situations in order to test their weaknesses. Its how the big strategic minds find out new ideas. Good honest tinkering. If you're not tinkering, you're not doing it right, and you're just copying someone else's idea. Its straightforward logic.
TBH, I don't care how top you are, how big your score is, how many tournaments you've won...... I've seen people tournaments consist of 8 guys with the same moves doing the exact same thing. Being a top team doesn't necessarily guarantee you know how to break any strat - generally it just means you're the most skilled at what you do. Which is all well and good, but when the goalposts move it leaves you flatfooted. Someone might be good at fade hit and runs, but that doesn't guarantee his group know how to recover from a crippling screwup two minutes into the game.
Again, if the top player in NS waded in here, agreed with everything I said, then left... I'm happy to wager that you'd all round on him/her/it. Accept that both sides are coming up with the same suggestions, we're trying to work to a solution that'll benefit all of us. Or do you want the future of NS to be decided by each little faction screaming NERF every time something new comes in.
I know I don't. I don't want a game dictated by the competitive community OR the public community. I'd like a game dedicated to the best interests of both. So the sooner half of you can shape up and start treating each other as compentent human beings, the sooner we can find a solution or at least make the dev team extremely confident that we have <i>tried</i>.
I see you give Dragonmech a normal response, yet for the most part he's been asking the same questions as me, and largely giving the same sort of response as me. Why are you so threatened by me tho?
In the 1-5 list that Mech gave, I think I'm favouring boosting obs as well. Certainly because, as you've stated, sieges have been adjusted. Its a fair change that means marines dont' have to spend inordinate amounts of res, but at the same time it means you DO have to alter your core strat a little to counter SC. ATM I find SC first games (ending with marine wins) to run considerably longer than would be expected. That alone is a huge clue that something odd is happening with SC.
However, that is my pub experience, which is why I came to this thread to get the COMPETITIVE experience. I hope you can understand my reasons for posting, and am somewhat glad that at least 3 of us can get along and agree on the rough path for a fix.
Oh, and yes I find cloaking a pain in the backside. I think it gives poorly coordinated rambo aliens the ability to hold their own against a dedicated marine team. I find it a tad unbalancing. In pub play however this is less of a problem because focus fades just aren't good enough. I find it odd that a decent marine team takes twice as long to clear out SC aliens as it would to take out MC/DC aliens - and even that thats only because the aliens screwed up.
THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE.
I bring my experience to this thread, I ask for the experience of the competitive community, plus examples. I mean really, how hard is it for all of us to lay our cards on the table and finally agree that we've tried everything? Cmon folks, we're one community, so can we treat each other like adults while we find a solution, then we can go back to swinging poop and hooting afterwards?
ok so you've been saying that SC are not overpowered and that it's just us not playing the game right for the last however long and now SC are overpowered all along?! You sure did change your tune after Fana actually used an opinion based on experience in NS against your opinion based on your twenty year long tactical winstreak in XCom against yourself and your friends (which could you please ramble more about, uselessly, please?)
So was that last post of yours an admission that you were arguing like an idiot or what?
Wow Necrosis you have to be the most hypocritical, arrogant, and stereotyping person I've ever met. Seriously. It's embarassing to NS pubbers everywhere.
I swear I could quote at least 10 one-liners of you saying how smart you are or how much of a super cool tabletop strategical thinker you are, from this thread alone. Yet you fail to realize that nobody is impressed with you bragging about how good you were at some other game. I also enjoy seeing you on your high horse talking down to clanners and anyone who does something which you deem unacceptable. Life sure is easy when you're always right.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 18 2005, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 18 2005, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow Necrosis you have to be the most hypocritical, arrogant, and stereotyping person I've ever met. Seriously. It's embarassing to NS pubbers everywhere.
I swear I could quote at least 10 one-liners of you saying how smart you are or how much of a super cool tabletop strategical thinker you are, from this thread alone. Yet you fail to realize that nobody is impressed with you bragging about how good you were at some other game. I also enjoy seeing you on your high horse talking down to clanners and anyone who does something which you deem unacceptable. Life sure is easy when you're always right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well considering necrosis probably has about 30000 more words posted in this thread then anyone else, I wouldn't really find ten one liners all that offenceive or arrogant. God knows clanners aren't the most humble group most of the time either...
I do tend to agree with NGE more then you on this one though Nec.
Comments
but people have tried new strats in their gameplay
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shall echo the other poster by asking which people, and which strats. Are we talking radically new strats here, or are we talking "move that turret a little to the left".
We're not seeing examples here of radical clan commanding strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I find it disturbing how distrustful you are of me
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it odd anyone would keep logs for so long. Unless said person planned to use said logs in some far off future discussion to entrap some unsuspecting debater. Or do you not think HAMBONE made his comments in confidence?
So Nad, how did these counters work? Why did each one fail? How did you improve on this in subsequent attempts? Which combinations worked? Are you even a decent comm to begin with, or have you been copying someone else's play style for the past 2 years?
As you so slowly observed, I am commenting on a long run of victory on the tabletop circuit. Winning is winning, tbh it lacks its thrill when you get older. It becomes more fun to find the new strat, or deliberately challenge yourself. You'll learn.
If you think there's a huge gulf of difference between NS and tabletop gaming, or other RTS games, then you're pretty wrong. Sure, there's an element of luck, but in tabletop gaming we call that "die rolls". In other RTS games its the matter of what the other guy upgraded first. Did he go armour, or did he go weaponry?
NS works on the same level. Further, a truly great strategist will turn his hand to any game. You get some people who are only ever good at ONE game, and then there's the real champs who are good at several games, or more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
some of the best competitive players in the entire ns playing world have made comments in this topic, all of which spoke against your opinions. Does that tell you ANYTHING?! Maybe these people just know these things better than you?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments such as... SC are NOT FUN. SC are OVERPOWERED. How constructive.
Do we see comments such as "I have tried the following strats, here are demos"?
Do we see comments such as "you know it might be just these 3 maps"?
Do we see comments such as "Well the catpack rush only worked up to X point"?
No we dont. Not from the bulk of posters, at any rate.
Screaming how NOT FUN it is, or how overpowered it is, doesn't really contribute. Where's the solid examples of real counters? All I see are comments about "anyone can predict how these counters will work". It doesnt take a genius to work out that mindgames and a real playthrough are two different things. Thats why all products get beta tested. Its why people test pipes for cracks. Oh sure, you can run a mindgame about how the Titanic will never sink, but thats not going to prepare you for when it DOES sink. Do you think the shipbuilders listened to anyone who said "what if it hits an iceberg?". No, I can imagine in the dim and distant past, an elite group of shipbuilders telling the apprentice:
"OMFGNOOB, IT CANT HIT AN ICEBERG"
"YOU'VE NEVER BUILT SHIPS"
"OGM ICEBERGS DONT EXIST"
Consider that players are offering you real alternatives - experiment with unorthodox play styles. Consider that its just a few maps. Consider that SC is radically different to MC/DC and thus needs to be countered in an entirely different way.
But no! In the short gap we've had the latest release, the competitive world has tested every conceivable combination and been defeated by sensory! Every map is horribly unbalanced if sc is used first! It cant be the maps, it cant be our strat, it must be the chamber!
So so funny.. mine ladders were only discovered out of boredom. I didn't think you'd have time to be bored in a competitive game. How odd!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
We try new things
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such as? Do tell. Illuminate us.
Sad fact of the matter is, even if I rolled in here as the number one competitive player in the world, you'd all STILL not listen. If I posted as your average clanner, you'd say its a nub clan. Why so afraid? Is your ego so fragile that you can't accept that the solution is outside the grasp of your mind?
If the top two clans in the world said you couldn't play to save your life, would you even take their message on board? Hell no, it'd be a big crapthrowing monkey extravaganza.
All you big shots, with your "we try stuff", and "oh yeah we did this thing, and this thing, and I can actually remember all the stuff we did, but we did it", lets have some hard examples.
Where the strat came from, how well it worked, why it failed, and how it was improved upon. You know, feedback. Constructive feedback. Hooting nerf and throwing poo doesn't exactly help when it comes to gauging how strong SC is.
So far all we see is one big singleminded diatribe that "SC IS OVERPOWERED". Noone's put forth solid and genuine examples of how their counters failed in a match.
You know, if you want, send me some demos, I'll give you some suggestions. Ask some of your friends who play SC, or Homeworld, or X Com. Do something a bit more constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Two decades worth of experience in something THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THIS AT ALL.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, sure, because a person can only think strategically about one thing, and you can't translate that to other things. Because a worker rush in SC is totally different to a scout rush in Armada 2. Because building a Class 1 Marauder squad in Starship Troopers is totally different to an HA train in NS.
Yeah, toooootally different. Oh pleeaaase.
Players have suggested grenades, obs, electrification, focusing on hives instead of res, avoidng rather than confronting on enemy ground. People have gave you suggestions ripped almost verbatim from the Art of War. What more do you need? If you've all tried these out in REAL GAMES then c'mon, lets hear what happened.
I'm sorry, but "It didnt work" and "we try stuff" doesn't cut it with me. You're all welcome to keep saying strategy game X is totally unlike strategy game Y, but you just look like fools. Lets have some words from a top level commander who has tried all the above strats. Lets hear how they failed. Lets hear how they attempted to improve.
If you can't provide this, then what sort of credibility can you bring to the demand for a specific chamber nerf as opposed to map editing or boosting marine attributes to compensate?
What will happen if SC gets nerfed anyhow? Back to the old MC/DC strat and the same old gaming? I for one have had enough of formulaic NS with the same opening and the same finish. The more variety the better. Shakes things up, makes them more of a challenge.
So come on - hard examples of tried and failed strategies. Details of how they failed, and how improvements where attempted. Then we can consider how marine upgrades may need to be changed to counter, or if JUST TANITH needs to be altered in order to make the map more balanced. Witch-hunting one chamber because "we tried stuff and it didnt work" is pretty weak.
Ah, comrade, a link, how handy.
I see Fana is a top level fade. Congrats Fana.
Do you command much Fana? How do you try to counter SC? As a fade player, what do you think marines need to do to counter SC? I value your first hand experience.
I followed the Amped link to Mr.Ben's interview too.
I see Ben is a top commander. Excellent! Ben, I notice you didn't say too much about countering SC. As you're a top commander I am genuinely curious to know how you attempted and failed to counter SC? At which point did you decide to give up experimenting? Or are you still experimenting and adapting? I ask because if anyone's tried nub or unorthodox strats to counter SC, you're probably the one to have tried.
Thats what I like to see, creative input and discussion from strategic thinkers. That way we can all move forwards towards a common solution.
EDIT
Oo, more comments, have to cover them quickly.
Fred, you tried catpacks, you say it didn't work.
How did you try them.
Why did they not work.
How did you attempt to improve this.
Why did that improvement fail.
When did you give up and decide to say its just overpowered?
As the axis are somewhat underpowered in the original axis and allies, you would be one who builds that factory in western europe just to see if it actually works?
Ok.
but people have tried new strats in their gameplay
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shall echo the other poster by asking which people, and which strats. Are we talking radically new strats here, or are we talking "move that turret a little to the left".
We're not seeing examples here of radical clan commanding strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I find it disturbing how distrustful you are of me
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it odd anyone would keep logs for so long. Unless said person planned to use said logs in some far off future discussion to entrap some unsuspecting debater. Or do you not think HAMBONE made his comments in confidence?
So Nad, how did these counters work? Why did each one fail? How did you improve on this in subsequent attempts? Which combinations worked? Are you even a decent comm to begin with, or have you been copying someone else's play style for the past 2 years?
As you so slowly observed, I am commenting on a long run of victory on the tabletop circuit. Winning is winning, tbh it lacks its thrill when you get older. It becomes more fun to find the new strat, or deliberately challenge yourself. You'll learn.
If you think there's a huge gulf of difference between NS and tabletop gaming, or other RTS games, then you're pretty wrong. Sure, there's an element of luck, but in tabletop gaming we call that "die rolls". In other RTS games its the matter of what the other guy upgraded first. Did he go armour, or did he go weaponry?
NS works on the same level. Further, a truly great strategist will turn his hand to any game. You get some people who are only ever good at ONE game, and then there's the real champs who are good at several games, or more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
some of the best competitive players in the entire ns playing world have made comments in this topic, all of which spoke against your opinions. Does that tell you ANYTHING?! Maybe these people just know these things better than you?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments such as... SC are NOT FUN. SC are OVERPOWERED. How constructive.
Do we see comments such as "I have tried the following strats, here are demos"?
Do we see comments such as "you know it might be just these 3 maps"?
Do we see comments such as "Well the catpack rush only worked up to X point"?
No we dont. Not from the bulk of posters, at any rate.
Screaming how NOT FUN it is, or how overpowered it is, doesn't really contribute. Where's the solid examples of real counters? All I see are comments about "anyone can predict how these counters will work". It doesnt take a genius to work out that mindgames and a real playthrough are two different things. Thats why all products get beta tested. Its why people test pipes for cracks. Oh sure, you can run a mindgame about how the Titanic will never sink, but thats not going to prepare you for when it DOES sink. Do you think the shipbuilders listened to anyone who said "what if it hits an iceberg?". No, I can imagine in the dim and distant past, an elite group of shipbuilders telling the apprentice:
"OMFGNOOB, IT CANT HIT AN ICEBERG"
"YOU'VE NEVER BUILT SHIPS"
"OGM ICEBERGS DONT EXIST"
Consider that players are offering you real alternatives - experiment with unorthodox play styles. Consider that its just a few maps. Consider that SC is radically different to MC/DC and thus needs to be countered in an entirely different way.
But no! In the short gap we've had the latest release, the competitive world has tested every conceivable combination and been defeated by sensory! Every map is horribly unbalanced if sc is used first! It cant be the maps, it cant be our strat, it must be the chamber!
So so funny.. mine ladders were only discovered out of boredom. I didn't think you'd have time to be bored in a competitive game. How odd!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
We try new things
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such as? Do tell. Illuminate us.
Sad fact of the matter is, even if I rolled in here as the number one competitive player in the world, you'd all STILL not listen. If I posted as your average clanner, you'd say its a nub clan. Why so afraid? Is your ego so fragile that you can't accept that the solution is outside the grasp of your mind?
If the top two clans in the world said you couldn't play to save your life, would you even take their message on board? Hell no, it'd be a big crapthrowing monkey extravaganza.
All you big shots, with your "we try stuff", and "oh yeah we did this thing, and this thing, and I can actually remember all the stuff we did, but we did it", lets have some hard examples.
Where the strat came from, how well it worked, why it failed, and how it was improved upon. You know, feedback. Constructive feedback. Hooting nerf and throwing poo doesn't exactly help when it comes to gauging how strong SC is.
So far all we see is one big singleminded diatribe that "SC IS OVERPOWERED". Noone's put forth solid and genuine examples of how their counters failed in a match.
You know, if you want, send me some demos, I'll give you some suggestions. Ask some of your friends who play SC, or Homeworld, or X Com. Do something a bit more constructive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Two decades worth of experience in something THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THIS AT ALL.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, sure, because a person can only think strategically about one thing, and you can't translate that to other things. Because a worker rush in SC is totally different to a scout rush in Armada 2. Because building a Class 1 Marauder squad in Starship Troopers is totally different to an HA train in NS.
Yeah, toooootally different. Oh pleeaaase.
Players have suggested grenades, obs, electrification, focusing on hives instead of res, avoidng rather than confronting on enemy ground. People have gave you suggestions ripped almost verbatim from the Art of War. What more do you need? If you've all tried these out in REAL GAMES then c'mon, lets hear what happened.
I'm sorry, but "It didnt work" and "we try stuff" doesn't cut it with me. You're all welcome to keep saying strategy game X is totally unlike strategy game Y, but you just look like fools. Lets have some words from a top level commander who has tried all the above strats. Lets hear how they failed. Lets hear how they attempted to improve.
If you can't provide this, then what sort of credibility can you bring to the demand for a specific chamber nerf as opposed to map editing or boosting marine attributes to compensate?
What will happen if SC gets nerfed anyhow? Back to the old MC/DC strat and the same old gaming? I for one have had enough of formulaic NS with the same opening and the same finish. The more variety the better. Shakes things up, makes them more of a challenge.
So come on - hard examples of tried and failed strategies. Details of how they failed, and how improvements where attempted. Then we can consider how marine upgrades may need to be changed to counter, or if JUST TANITH needs to be altered in order to make the map more balanced. Witch-hunting one chamber because "we tried stuff and it didnt work" is pretty weak.
Ah, comrade, a link, how handy.
I see Fana is a top level fade. Congrats Fana.
Do you command much Fana? How do you try to counter SC? As a fade player, what do you think marines need to do to counter SC? I value your first hand experience.
I followed the Amped link to Mr.Ben's interview too.
I see Ben is a top commander. Excellent! Ben, I notice you didn't say too much about countering SC. As you're a top commander I am genuinely curious to know how you attempted and failed to counter SC? At which point did you decide to give up experimenting? Or are you still experimenting and adapting? I ask because if anyone's tried nub or unorthodox strats to counter SC, you're probably the one to have tried.
Thats what I like to see, creative input and discussion from strategic thinkers. That way we can all move forwards towards a common solution.
EDIT
Oo, more comments, have to cover them quickly.
Fred, you tried catpacks, you say it didn't work.
How did you try them.
Why did they not work.
How did you attempt to improve this.
Why did that improvement fail.
When did you give up and decide to say its just overpowered? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YOU ARE CLEVER!
I am interested in that part, because then we can collectively consider a balanced solution.
Tjosan -
Yes, I would try it in a practice game against myself or one of my friends. Because you never know. You'd be surprised how doing odd things can yield unexpected beneficial results. After all, thats why you're bipedal and not walking on all fours.
I am interested in that part, because then we can collectively consider a balanced solution.
Tjosan -
Yes, I would try it in a practice game against myself or one of my friends. Because you never know. You'd be surprised how doing odd things can yield unexpected beneficial results. After all, thats why you're bipedal and not walking on all fours. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever played axis and allies?
why don't you make a clan and come show us how easy it is to counter sensory...
the problem with sensory is that it REQUIRES lots of field Obs, armor1, shotguns, and LOTS of welders on the field in the first ~4 minutes. Marines just don't have the res.
and by the way, I don't command.
Im tired of trying to tell you, and as im currently 5000 miles away from my home computer i cannot post demos, but i think the fact that almost NOONE agrees with you or sees things the same as you might give you a hint that maaaaaaybe you miiiiiiight be wrong just this once...that thought ever cross your mind?
Im just talking out of my **** now but its hopeless to try and convince you otherwise
STOP ASSUMING PEOPLE ARE STUPID! IDIOT STRATS WILL NOT WORK IN MATCHPLAY THE SAME AS THEY WILL ON YOUR PUB THAT DOESN'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO KILL ALIENS WITHIN 30000 FEET OF THE HIVE!
We've tried many many many many different strats to combat sensories at present and lets face it most will not work and the ones that do require you to be able to hold 5 res nodes and prevent the second hive going up. Unless you dominate in the early game as marines and somehow manage to keep the sensories down, or lockdown a key area with a phase gate, mines, and an obs, you will be screwed. At hive 2 sensories are even worse because you can't get anywhere near a hive without scs giving you away with innate sof. Add in focus fades and skulks and it's so much fun that I don't really like scrimming anymore.
Something needs to be tweaked to tone down sensories a tad while still keeping them viable as a starting chamber. Personally I think NGE has a couple of good solutions for this and that there are other viable solutions being discussed that will help. Don't just assume that "clanners" are trying to play the game the same way as they were before.
Then would you answer Necrosis's questions instead of yelling at him? What strats were tested, exactly? Who tested them against whom, and on what maps? What worked, what didn't? Were the failed strats changed and retried?
Then would you answer Necrosis's questions instead of yelling at him? What strats were tested, exactly? Who tested them against whom, and on what maps? What worked, what didn't? Were the failed strats changed and retried? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much the only viable early game marine strat vs sensories is to get armor1 as fast as possible (which is what is done usually anyway), and spam welders and Observatories in the field. Hope that you have time to weld. There isn't really huge variance there. If you do anything BUT get A1 very fast you lose. If you don't get Obs in the field, you lose... if you don't have all your marines with welders, you lose.
After that it just comes down to the fight at the second hive. Where the marines typically are low on res, since its very easy to kill marine res cappers with cloaking.
I'd say that Sensory is probably not the best Hive1 chamber, but that it is definitely imbalanced (compared to MC or DC) in the first 5 minutes or so... They buffed Sensory in a place where it was fine and didn't do anything to help Sensory where it actually needed help...
Anyway I wouldn't expect a detailed account of who tested what vs who because they are just scrims and nobody really records them.
Electrification = too much res + owned by gorges at hive 2 because your whole res flow went to holding nodes not stopping hive 2.
Locking down hives = hard to get to the hives through sc zones and you are putting all your marines in one spot so you get base rushed or don't get any nodes.
Placing obs in key spots = obs get owned by skulks in about 15 seconds flat so you need phase tech and mines to hold them when added to obs cost of 20 each is way too much res.
Motion tracking rush = will give you rough idea of where skulks are which you should know already and often makes you look in the wrong spot for skulks.
Phase rush = you need welders to combat focus to even get a phase up and it delays a1.
HA rush = you need a1 early, plus an obs, plus phasegates, plus upgraded armory, plus your team has to spend it's whole time welding or focus will own them quick.
I mean these are the most popular ideas and frankly none of them work for crap. Most of the time it's plain old hope the sensories are in a spot you can get to easily and take them out before the cloaked, focus, sof skulks get you. And while you're at it hope that their fades suck because if they don't you're going to get raped hardcore.
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I don't know why anyone here is talking about radical change. If you understood the concept of NS strategy before, then you still do now - if you were an idiot before, you still are. If you think there is innovation to be done, you obviously didn't understand and don't understand now. The goals haven't changed, the same things have just gotten harder - SC means significantly more flexible cloaking now (pray to god they don't sodomize your capper), Cloak/Focus zones and of course Skulks with 10% extra durability across the board regardless of chamber.
The most effective methods to winning haven't changed much at all, you're just going to encounter more resistance and need to execute more perfectly now. Thats not in the least bit innovative.
To make an example, the easiest SC counter strat is the following : Bog standard a1 tech start, cap 4 nodes, dedicate 2 marines to spotshooting down chokepoints if the map is linear enough while you cap, get an obs up, ping, push, build a forward obs, drop a phasegate, hope you did it in under 4 minutes and start playing SG/welders vs Fades until Prototech is up. With HA siege the primary Hive, with JPs hunt down their chambers then kill the SC-less Hive.
Thats an entire competitive round in a nutshell. Its really not so different except alot of innovative options are not viable now due to the ease and power of setting up a single SC. RIP good ol' Obs/Nodeblocking strat.
Nadagast plays for Exigent, one of the two presumed best clans in USA right now. He does not, however, play commander. Yet again you prove your lack of knowledge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you think there's a huge gulf of difference between NS and tabletop gaming, or other RTS games, then you're pretty wrong. Sure, there's an element of luck, but in tabletop gaming we call that "die rolls". In other RTS games its the matter of what the other guy upgraded first. Did he go armour, or did he go weaponry?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you continue with your lack of knowledge. It's so obvious to anyone that has ever played ns competitive that you have no clue what you're talking about, that it's not even funny. The number one thing that wins games in NS, is player skill. How good players are at shooting aliens. How good skulks are at coordinated ambushes. How good Fades are at staying alive.
And if you try to reply to this with **** about "omg lol that's why you can't counter SCs then cause you need to use new and innovative strategies and not rambo lol!", you're just proving how much of a fool you are. The entire problem with SCs, and aliens in general right now, is that aliens have it a lot easier, while marines have it a lot harder. Hence, it's easier to win alien. Either you start trusting us, who have far more experience and knowledge than you, or you better back your words up with action and actually try it out yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But no! In the short gap we've had the latest release, the competitive world has tested every conceivable combination and been defeated by sensory! Every map is horribly unbalanced if sc is used first! It cant be the maps, it cant be our strat, it must be the chamber!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just don't get it, do you? Realize that you're the laughing stock of the entire community right now, and that the only people who support your claims are those with an equally lacking knowledge of the game as you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So so funny.. mine ladders were only discovered out of boredom. I didn't think you'd have time to be bored in a competitive game. How odd!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Idiot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All you big shots, with your "we try stuff", and "oh yeah we did this thing, and this thing, and I can actually remember all the stuff we did, but we did it", lets have some hard examples.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't share our tactics. You know. The whole idea of not giving your opponents advantages? Oh wait, you've never actually played competitive. My mistake!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, if you want, send me some demos, I'll give you some suggestions. Ask some of your friends who play SC, or Homeworld, or X Com. Do something a bit more constructive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you send me some demos, and I might be gracious enough to help you improve your game? Some players even charge for lessons...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, sure, because a person can only think strategically about one thing, and you can't translate that to other things. Because a worker rush in SC is totally different to a scout rush in Armada 2. Because building a Class 1 Marauder squad in Starship Troopers is totally different to an HA train in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the games you mention are played with static units with set statistics. They don't actually think or fight on their own, they don't have skill, they're just pieces on a board. You throw dies and remove a piece, and then do it all over again. Get it into your head, the FPS element in NS is far more prominent than the RTS aspect. If you'd ever played competitive for any amount of time you'd know this.
Hey, here's an example! Even if you drop HA and HMGs for your entire team, there's no guarantee that they'll even get out of base, that they'll even get to the hive. You don't throw dies and compare stats to see who wins and loses in NS, you actually use FPS skill to overpower your opponents. Do you even know what FPS skill is? I would tell you to go back to your tabletop gaming, but that's probably redundant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Players have suggested grenades, obs, electrification, focusing on hives instead of res, avoidng rather than confronting on enemy ground. People have gave you suggestions ripped almost verbatim from the Art of War. What more do you need? If you've all tried these out in REAL GAMES then c'mon, lets hear what happened.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenades are useless. We already use observatories to a great extent. Elecrification tactics have been tested over and over by a multitude of different clans in different skill levels. It doesn't work against alien tactics that adapt. Locking down hives can work, but usually doesn't because aliens overpower your marines. The usual result even if you do manage to lock down both hives is either: A. Aliens have way too much res because you haven't had time to kill their RTs, and they mow you over with Fades and Oni. B. You can't hold the hive lockdown because you can't afford upgrades, medspam or weapons because you haven't had time to secure RTs. Avoiding enemy territory is an often used tactic on certain maps such as nothing, where you can dominate the top level of the map with impunity, while teching up. This is a harsh tradeoff, however, and you won't be able to take down enemy res, which will lose you the game on any other map. It works very well as a counter to SCs on nothing, but none of the other maps have the same layout as nothing! It's a one-map no-dupe strategy, which does in no way counter the efficiency of SCs in general play. Not to mention the fact that nothing is hardly played at all in competitive due to its bias. Here's a demo of the tactic in question, btw. Have fun, you might even learn something: <a href='http://esports.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=1654' target='_blank'>http://esports.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=1654</a> .
Do you even know how a competitive game works? How fast it is compared to public? Fades in competitive usually finish gestating around 3:30-4:30, and after that your entire team needs to be outfitted with weapons and upgrades to be able to survive, because top tier Fades are incredibly skilled and cut through basic marines like chaff. Most competitive games are usually decided at around 4 minutes into the game, although there are exceptions. You can't even grasp how competitive play works, because you've never played it.
Why can't you just get it into your head?! You have no clue about how this game works! Arguing with you is like arguing with a five year old boy, who is absolutely sure of himself, and refuses to realize that he has no experience in the matter at hand, yet believes that there is no way he can be wrong, and there is no reason for him to educate himself because he's already right!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see Fana is a top level fade. Congrats Fana.
Do you command much Fana? How do you try to counter SC? As a fade player, what do you think marines need to do to counter SC? I value your first hand experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no real counter to focus fades, apart from massively overpowering them with superiour firepower. In 3.0b5 this was possible, because aliens didn't overpower marines in the early game. Now, this has changed, however, and marines can't get the advantage they need to overpower during the mid game any more. But you already know this, because you've tested strategies and competitiv... Oh wait.
You seem to put a lot of stock in commanders, a lot of importance in their skill. You know something? I'm not surprised. Pubbers tend to do that a lot. They expect the commander to run every aspect of the game in organized play, because they've never played it and have no idea how it works. Most of the time, the commander works strictly as a medspamming machine. The commander needs to focus so much time on keeping marines a live, that it leaves little time and energy for controlling every aspect of the game. Commanders also control strategy in game, but just about everything in clan games are planned beforehand, by the players on the team in unison, all participating with their advice on the final tactic. In game, situational awareness is one of the most important skills for a field marine, and by that I mean the knowledge to always know what he needs to do to win the game.
This is one of the major things that separate top players from skilled players, and also why the commander isn't as important as you may think. Yes, the commander is extremely important when it comes to medpacks, ammo, telling people where to go and what to do ingame, clicking the various upgrade buttons and keeping tabs of how much res he has at his disposal, and how much res aliens have at their disposal, as well as alien hive situation. The commander does not, however, chose how the match plays out with his brilliant strategical choices. The field marines do, with their actions and skill, while the commander provides the resources needed for this.
Let me again just remind you -- in case you've already forgotten, you never know! -- this is not a table top game. You don't throw dies and compare stats to determine which cleverly painted tabletop avatar dies and which survives. Player skill does. Competitive strategies are created with this in mind, and are perfected to improve this potential for player skill dominance.
Let me repeat this once and for all:
You've never actually played competitive, you have no idea how the game works. How can you even begin to believe that you have a clue?! Do you have some sort of cranial illness that prevents you from thinking properly? Are you just plain and simple dumb? All good questions.
Also, when you aren't an AUTHORITATIVE EXPERT on the subject in question, don't argue with those who are. Don't argue with Nadagast, he's led the most historically succesful clan in Natural Selection. Don't argue with Fana, the undisputed TOP european player. Don't argue with MrBen, the guy who freaking made the 3.0 ns_eclipse, ns_veil, and ns_nothing maps and as an understatement is an accomplished commander. Don't argue with freddeh, he knows wha he's talking about, he's another top north american player.
I would like to be considered credible. I'm the commander of a top CAL-Omega team. Dude, believe me when I tell you that by the numbers, sensory chambers are broken. I pushed 2 strats really hard since 3.0 came out and standard strats obviously were failing against sc's. Both were unothodox. One is a 2 hive lockdown, and one is a HA rush. In the HA rush, you have to allow for the second hive to actually go up. Its going to go up in the middle of the seige. Our heavy teams got owned by 2 hive sensory aliens every time we've tried the strat or any variation of it. Not just beaten.. owned. 4 W2 HA guys can't handle aliens at 2 hives with sc's. The two hive lockdown has won once against a team that was far below our skill level. We prevented the second hive from even dropping, had both hives locked, full tech minus proto, and res control. It took us 28 minutes to win the game. We had both hives locked at 3:15 and res control at 7-8 min.
There are some unorthodox strats. If a no armor 1 HA rush, or a double hive lock isn't unorthodox, i don't know what is m8.
edit:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89577&view=findpost&p=1407452' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....dpost&p=1407452</a>
There is a link to a post of mine talking about why rines can't by the numbers have what they need to fight sc's. And Fana has owned you. Stop posting.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
MrBen <i>did</i> think that Sieges shouldn't do splashdamage, so please do argue with him. But he is right in this case, regardless of the irony that he dug his own grave in PTing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Don't argue with freddeh, he knows wha he's talking about, he's another top north american player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're fired for saying that. FOREVER.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MrBen <i>did</i> think that Sieges shouldn't do splashdamage, so please do argue with him. But he is right in this case, regardless of the irony that he dug his own grave in PTing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Don't argue with freddeh, he knows wha he's talking about, he's another top north american player. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're fired for saying that. FOREVER. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Top = Well known delta player. You're a top player too saltz. I'm sorry if you felt left out.
NS is no different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is the fundamental flaw with your arguements. NS IS DIFFERENT. NS may be an RTS, but it is also an FPS. For example, in chess, there is no chance that the knight can defeat your queen when your queen attacked first. The queen will always win. In NS it's not like this. You cannot compare table top gaming, as you refer to it, to NS, because of this fundamental difference.
Electrification = too much res + owned by gorges at hive 2 because your whole res flow went to holding nodes not stopping hive 2.
Locking down hives = hard to get to the hives through sc zones and you are putting all your marines in one spot so you get base rushed or don't get any nodes.
Placing obs in key spots = obs get owned by skulks in about 15 seconds flat so you need phase tech and mines to hold them when added to obs cost of 20 each is way too much res.
Motion tracking rush = will give you rough idea of where skulks are which you should know already and often makes you look in the wrong spot for skulks.
Phase rush = you need welders to combat focus to even get a phase up and it delays a1.
HA rush = you need a1 early, plus an obs, plus phasegates, plus upgraded armory, plus your team has to spend it's whole time welding or focus will own them quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now <i>that's</i> something we can work with. Res and scanning seem to be the really big obstacles to successfully countering SCs. Do you guys think any of these changes would be benificial?
1) Cheaper obs. If the obs only cost 10, 12 or 15 res (as opposed to 20) they could be dropped more frequently.
2) Longer lasting scans, so that buildings and aliens don't recloak as fast. I believe they recloak in only 2-3 seconds, so having them stay uncloaked for 5-10 might work.
3) Cheaper mines - so you can protect your obervatories more effectively. Right now it's 5 res for 4 mines; perhaps 3-4 res would be a better cost.
4) Cheaper welders, so that you can have more of them to weld teammates.
5) Give marines 5 more armor as a default. That way a focus bite is not an instant kill, but also requires a parasite or another bite to finish the job.
As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way.
Other than that, I confess my hatred for cloaking, and I feel something needs to be done about this upgrade to make it less frustrating, and perhaps even a bit fun, to play with SCs built.
If that becomes the end-all strategy, yes. However, to drop an armory, RT, obs, IP, armslab and get armor 1 take every penny a marine team has at the start; and that's without dropping any equipment. If a team rushed all of those, MT and PGs would still be delayed by their cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Would slowing down the alien midgame achieve the same effect? IE: making the hives take another minute to build?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Other than that, I confess my hatred for cloaking, and I feel something needs to be done about this upgrade to make it less frustrating, and perhaps even a bit fun, to play with SCs built.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Agreed. IMO the game would be far better with something in the place of cloaking.
1) Cheaper obs. If the obs only cost 10, 12 or 15 res (as opposed to 20) they could be dropped more frequently.
2) Longer lasting scans, so that buildings and aliens don't recloak as fast. I believe they recloak in only 2-3 seconds, so having them stay uncloaked for 5-10 might work.
3) Cheaper mines - so you can protect your obervatories more effectively. Right now it's 5 res for 4 mines; perhaps 3-4 res would be a better cost.
4) Cheaper welders, so that you can have more of them to weld teammates.
5) Give marines 5 more armor as a default. That way a focus bite is not an instant kill, but also requires a parasite or another bite to finish the job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Yes. I totally agree. It's been suggested by me and many others in other topics on this forum. This would make it easier to counter sensories, actually giving the marines a really viable way of doing it.
2) Scan length seems ok now, but observatories need to start with more energy. Right now they're pretty useless as they start with 20 energy (or was it 15?) and you need to wait to be able to scan. It should have at least 50 energy to start out with. This isn't really abuseable either, now that sieges have been nerfed.
3) Mines are fine right now. Lower cost will result in spammage.
4) Welders are ok, they're one of the most used items in comp play right now.
5) Too much balance testing would be needed to introduce this now. It might be a good idea, it might not. But it needs to be tested first, and I don't think dev team / pt team has the time for that right now. 5 more armor would give default lvl 1 armor too, although parasite would break it, which is a huge advantage.
In reply to tjosans comment about cloaking not being fun:
I don't think a single competitive player has ever commented on cloaking being fun, simply because it isn't. Not being able to see your enemy is extremely annoying, and with the increase in SC popularity, we'll be seeing a lot more of this. It's still fits a lot with NS though, and I think it should still stay in, as long as marines have an easy way to counter it. The most frustrating upgrade in the game, should not also be the most difficult to counter.
If you don't want to read it, don't. If you do, please do so at your own pace with a hot drink. We're all in this thread to analyse the chambers, so lets all ease up and treat each other as equals. We've all got the same problem, we're all coming up with the same counters, we're all making the same sort of suggestions for a fix.
Fundamentally we're similar, so lets discuss it as friends and try not to insinuate that each other is an idiot. If we were all idiots, we would not be thinking the same thoughts. Evidently we're all intelligent gamers, and its good to see. If we're all having the same problem, with the SAME counter, and the SAME possible solution, then its in our best interests to acknowledge our similarities and work together.
With that in mind, enjoy your hot drink, here starts the essay.
ORIGINAL POST STARTS HERE:
I'm chopping most of this post up because tbh its just easier to read if we work on the assumption that we're all equally intelligent as each other. Yes, believe it or not, this IS the short version.
I'm getting the short posts out of the way first. Then its the biggie. Please for the love of bunnies don't copy and paste the whole thing and slap a remark on the end. Its a waste of your time and of other forumgoers time. I'm trying to debate something out with people so we can get a definitive answer, I'm not after a muck slinging match.
Tjosan -
Not as much as I've played Risk. And tbh I'm actually more of a Diplomacy fan, which doesnt rely so much on piling up counters, but more about strategic support of key units. But hey, I'll play what I can get my hands on. Sadly no tabletop game really comes close to NS..... possibly Confrontation or Necromunda. Space Crusade really doesn't take into account individual player skill, whereas at least Necro has an exp system that mimics how people get good at certain things.
Alkiller -
Well you can go for chess, but to be honest I compare NS more to XCom and ST. I used chess only as an example of how games develop set openings and counters. You've probably played at least one XCom game, so you can see what I'm getting at here. NS has its set openings (a1, hello) but is more like XCom in that individual player ability is a decisive factor.
Freddeh -
In Xcom, units have differing stats and accuracies. As is the case with Starship Troopers. In both games it is the job of the commander to outfit his men as best he sees fit, then try to defeat an AI which (certainly in later XCom games) adapts to your own strategies.
You raised an excellent point about VARIABLES. I see you agree with myself that there are an awful lot of variables to consider when formulating comm plans.
Tell me then, do you think any person is capable of running a complete commanding simulation in their head, taking into account all of those variables? I don't believe so. Hence, I dry run everything. If the people who say "you can predict what will happen" aren't actually testing their theories, then you have to worry about the validity of their results.
Gunner -
Awesome. This is the info I'm after. Pretty much matches up with my own conclusions, tho there's obviously differences generally relying on skill. Focus fade generally not as scary on a pub, thank goodness.
TBH my money would be more on controlled electrification and locking a hive. The only other to worry about is the focus fade. Once you can wipe those out tho you've got an easier time of things. Its pubbish but I think with a bit of honing it might come up a bit better. Think of the reward tho, I mean whoever cracks SC is going to have a whale of a time in competitive play.
Saltzbad -
Ta for the input. Your strat seems (to me) to be a honing of standard play. Hear me out, but I think perhaps that thats why its failing.
What I worry about is that if the answer is just to nerf the SC, does it just make it more like DC/MC and thus mean you don't need to make much variation to your plan according to chamber? Personally I thought the concept was that each chamber needed its own counter, as opposed to a "catch all" counter that rarely/never failed.
Certainly in the last few betas it was getting pretty stagnant on my side of the fence, I mean feel free to tell me that the comp side was a hotbed of activity, but on the pub side it devolved into being the same old same old.
Fana -
Yes, I see Nad said he doesnt comm. TBH I suspected that to be the case but its always nice to hear it from the source.
A cynic would proceed to rip apart Nad because it would seem he has no experience of NS clan commanding either.
I, however, am not a cynic, and what I see is common ground between us both. Tho some of it seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.
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that you're the laughing stock of the entire community right now
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I couldn't in fact care less as to your opinion, because the fact is I don't have to worry about finding a counter to sensory. On the pub circuit, all is relatively well. In fact this was the case before, when people were worried about the clan scene dying. I tried to help with advice because my primary concern is the continuation of the game, NS.
The fact is also that anyone with any wit is going to question comments such as "we tried stuff" "it didnt work". If I was to say "we tried stuff" "it worked", would you not demand evidence? Turnabout is fair play, my young friend. I just like to hear what people have tried so that I can be CERTAIN that all avenues have been exhausted. "We tried stuff" does not inspire confidence in me, and hardly helps towards a positive solution. You're a playtester, does your PT report consist of "I tried stuff, it didn't work"??
I bloody hope not.
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We don't share our tactics
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Yes I imagined that to be the case also. Solution, why not gather your little friends, find a non-competitive PTer, and submit all your attempted counters to him or her?
I mean, do you not think its a bit silly to do the chimp stuff but at the same time noone is actually handing information out about how woeful it is?
On a side note, you get more out of competitive play if you share your secrets. Nothing more challenging than trying to break your own strat.
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All the games you mention are played with static units with set statistics
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On another level, individual player skill is just a big rack of statistics too. Assuming you play X Com properly, you will inevitable find yourself with a squad that have differening strengths. You can of course use an editor to max your stats, or just hire and fire anyone below a certain minimum score. However that just spoils the challenge doesn it?
I mean from XCom you have encumbrance, you have throwing skill, shooting skill, strength, morale, psi defence, etc. In ST you have accuracy, morale, differening suits of armour..... fundamentally its identical to player skill in NS. Some players shoot better than others. Some are exceptional fades but couldn't comm to save their life. You shouldn't be so dismissive of it.
The FPS and RTS aspect are interlinked. You can try to crunch it and just hire 6 people with the highest stats, or you take people with differening stats, train them up, learn their foibles, and put them to best use. In NS, you can't treat every player as the same, and again you can't do that in XCom or ST.
Variables, my friend, are where its at. Feel free to say that an accuracy of 85 is totally different to your friend having crackshot aim, but to most gamers its going to be pretty similar. To say its totally different is really unfair to the amount of variables that go into squad RTS games. I mean you can go further still and expand into the realm of the sports sim. You take the toughest guy in Speedball 2 and you make him into your star blocker. Its all about playing to strengths, and if you play enough RTS <i>and</i> are fully aware of your teams strengths, then ultimately you're going to enjoy more successes than losses. This is also a core component of the Art of War.
Further, even in WC/SC you can go for armour upgrades over weapon upgrades. You can shun some units entirely. All depends on your strat.
No, I'm afraid there's an awful lot of similarities between these games, if you open your eyes to it.
BTW, I had my fill of FPS skill in Q2 and both versions of AvP. TBH I've had a bigger buzz from playing Sinistar in the arcades. But go figure. In any case, stop to consider that you don't fully understand how RTS games work, especially if you think its all about identical units with fixed stats. Most of the best RTS games involve differing strats between teams, and the really REALLY good RTS games involve differing strates between units on the same side. Gaining experience, etc. Play a few then come back to me.
Now, you and I have had to wade through a load of peripheral text because you don't see stat based RTS games as similar to NS. Your following comments are the sort that I'm after. We're both intelligent, can't you accept I know how to play FPS games and I'll accept that you've played RTS games but don't see the magic of stats?
Thanks for an honest demo. I'll get an account at some point so I can watch it.
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Do you even know how a competitive game works?
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No, I don't. I'm totally clueless, I've never watched a demo, I don't play with clanners, I've lived in a bubble for my entire life. Why so hostile? Your last paragraph just agreed with my suggestion of avoidance, so why follow it up with immature comments on the obvious? You can see that I'm giving realistic suggestions that you've actually attempted, so that should be clue enough that at the very least I we're thinking along the same wavelength.
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Most competitive games are usually decided at around 4 minutes into the game
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I hate to shock you but thats generally how pub games go too. I know how this game works just as well as you. If I'm so nub, why are we both coming up with the same ideas? Why am I matching ideas with other people?
If I was 100% self righteous, I would not be asking for clan comments and feedback on how they've attempted to counter SC. If I was a egotistical teenangster I'd have typed out some trash about "ogm learn to counter, tagnub" and this thread would be locked.
As it stands, I have asked for demos, asked for attempted strats, any sort of proof that people are genuinely trying to counter SC instead of running straight for the nerf stick. Thats not the behaviour of an egomaniac. I am concerned that strats have not been experimented with, and hence I make suggestions trying to help people out. If you can't see that, fine, because nothing I say will change that opinion. But consider we're coming up with the same suggestions, we're both seeing the same problems, so in the end am I really so nub as you've convinced yourself I am?
The only difference is I'm here looking to find out what the competitive community have tried in order to counter SC. I know what I've tried, I'm seeking out answers just in case we've missed something. If we can turn round to the dev team and say "we have definitively tried the following" then at least we're in a better position to see SC adjusted in some way. In any event its more constructive that "we tried stuff" - irrespective of how terrified people are that their strat might get out.
I didn't think there was any other counter to fades. I had hoped that there was some uber strat, because just blattering them seemed a bit desperate. Generally on pub play versus a decent fade you have to weather the storm and hope you get lucky. Funny you should mention it, we have tested strategies. Regardless of which section of the community you're in, EVERYONE wants to find a way to easily deal with focus fades.
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Most of the time, the commander works strictly as a medspamming machine
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Fine, ok, whatever you wish to call "the guy what invents our tactical plays". In pub play the commander makes it up on the spot. For you guys I presume its made up before hand based on demos and what knowledge you can scrap together. However, the point is that there's a player who thinks up the tactics that the team use. Some groups have 2-3 players who pool their thoughts, some have the whole team pooling ideas. Makes no difference, I'm dealing with the creation of tactics, be it by one person or the whole unit.
Again you close with a very dismissive viewpoint of tabletop randomness. I can however easily think of how "luck" can interfere with player skill.
Player could have a bad day
Players fan could mysteriously die and his PC's internals turn into toffee
Player could be ill
Player could have forgotten to charge his optical mouse
Player was rubbing his eyes just at the moment a skulk rounded the corner.
Random dicerolling is close enough to simulate random occurrences. Its pretty straightforward.
So, since you answered some of my questions, I shall answer yours.
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You've never actually played competitive, you have no idea how the game works. How can you even begin to believe that you have a clue?!
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Odd that we're coming up with the same attempts at solutions? I understand how skill works, how tactics are required, I'm familiar with the counter (such as it is) for a focus fade, I understand how certain events alter individual player skill. On a more fundamental level, I've also edited the alien animations and played about with the guts of the game. I think I'm pretty well aware of how it works. Either that, or you're as dumb as I am since your solutions are equivalent to mine.
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Do you have some sort of cranial illness that prevents you from thinking properly?
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Erm, I'm the one with the winning record you know. Perhaps I do think differently, but its the winning type of different.
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Are you just plain and simple dumb?
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If I am dumb, then what are you, with your identical counters and identical situations? Can't you see the similarities? Or is that the problem - you CAN see the similarities and you're worried some lowly pubber with no clan experience can slap up a list of counters just as good as your own? Don't feel threatened. If I was a bit younger maybe I'd be doing the competitive thing too. Just as you get older you don't have the time to dedicate to serious competitive play. Its why I left nearly all competitive gaming, at any rate.
Router -
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standard strats obviously were failing against sc's
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You know, the response to this is just a bit too obvious for me.
In any case, I would have went for the hive lock. Not a double hive lock, but taking one and at least pressuring the other long enough so that when it DID finally start going up, you could have it down before it popped.
Second, being a member of a successful team doesn't necessarily mean you're the one carrying it. Third, if your practice sessions don't include trying new strats, you're not practicing enough - I don't care what Ben's input on that is, I'm talking from tactical experience. Don't just take my word for it - the worlds armed forces constantly experiment with new situations in order to test their weaknesses. Its how the big strategic minds find out new ideas. Good honest tinkering. If you're not tinkering, you're not doing it right, and you're just copying someone else's idea. Its straightforward logic.
TBH, I don't care how top you are, how big your score is, how many tournaments you've won...... I've seen people tournaments consist of 8 guys with the same moves doing the exact same thing. Being a top team doesn't necessarily guarantee you know how to break any strat - generally it just means you're the most skilled at what you do. Which is all well and good, but when the goalposts move it leaves you flatfooted. Someone might be good at fade hit and runs, but that doesn't guarantee his group know how to recover from a crippling screwup two minutes into the game.
Again, if the top player in NS waded in here, agreed with everything I said, then left... I'm happy to wager that you'd all round on him/her/it. Accept that both sides are coming up with the same suggestions, we're trying to work to a solution that'll benefit all of us. Or do you want the future of NS to be decided by each little faction screaming NERF every time something new comes in.
I know I don't. I don't want a game dictated by the competitive community OR the public community. I'd like a game dedicated to the best interests of both. So the sooner half of you can shape up and start treating each other as compentent human beings, the sooner we can find a solution or at least make the dev team extremely confident that we have <i>tried</i>.
I see you give Dragonmech a normal response, yet for the most part he's been asking the same questions as me, and largely giving the same sort of response as me. Why are you so threatened by me tho?
In the 1-5 list that Mech gave, I think I'm favouring boosting obs as well. Certainly because, as you've stated, sieges have been adjusted. Its a fair change that means marines dont' have to spend inordinate amounts of res, but at the same time it means you DO have to alter your core strat a little to counter SC. ATM I find SC first games (ending with marine wins) to run considerably longer than would be expected. That alone is a huge clue that something odd is happening with SC.
However, that is my pub experience, which is why I came to this thread to get the COMPETITIVE experience. I hope you can understand my reasons for posting, and am somewhat glad that at least 3 of us can get along and agree on the rough path for a fix.
Oh, and yes I find cloaking a pain in the backside. I think it gives poorly coordinated rambo aliens the ability to hold their own against a dedicated marine team. I find it a tad unbalancing. In pub play however this is less of a problem because focus fades just aren't good enough. I find it odd that a decent marine team takes twice as long to clear out SC aliens as it would to take out MC/DC aliens - and even that thats only because the aliens screwed up.
THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE.
I bring my experience to this thread, I ask for the experience of the competitive community, plus examples. I mean really, how hard is it for all of us to lay our cards on the table and finally agree that we've tried everything? Cmon folks, we're one community, so can we treat each other like adults while we find a solution, then we can go back to swinging poop and hooting afterwards?
Thanks.
So was that last post of yours an admission that you were arguing like an idiot or what?
I swear I could quote at least 10 one-liners of you saying how smart you are or how much of a super cool tabletop strategical thinker you are, from this thread alone. Yet you fail to realize that nobody is impressed with you bragging about how good you were at some other game. I also enjoy seeing you on your high horse talking down to clanners and anyone who does something which you deem unacceptable. Life sure is easy when you're always right.
I swear I could quote at least 10 one-liners of you saying how smart you are or how much of a super cool tabletop strategical thinker you are, from this thread alone. Yet you fail to realize that nobody is impressed with you bragging about how good you were at some other game. I also enjoy seeing you on your high horse talking down to clanners and anyone who does something which you deem unacceptable. Life sure is easy when you're always right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well considering necrosis probably has about 30000 more words posted in this thread then anyone else, I wouldn't really find ten one liners all that offenceive or arrogant. God knows clanners aren't the most humble group most of the time either...
I do tend to agree with NGE more then you on this one though Nec.