Actually the last part was more concerned with how we should combine both sides of the community coin into an active solution.
I don't consider SC to be overpowered, no. Tricky to counter, yes. I believe there IS a counter and we're just stumbling towards it. Currently, on pubs, SC games take longer for marines to win. However, the period of time IS getting shorter. Whether thats because more nubs are dropping SC is debatable. It could be that we're getting towards a solution. It could be that idiots are dropping SC and have no idea how to use it *shrug*
However, thats only one side of the coin.
In order to get a balanced opinion, I need to know what you guys have been trying to counter it with. Thats why I wanted answers, not "we did stuff". I mean, if SC really is so broken then the "stuff you did" isnt going to matter much because next version it would be fixed.
Ideally I was hoping that we could come up with something a bit closer to a counter... as it is all I see are tactical dead ends. Both groups have tried to pull it off, both groups can't do it. This gives us a unified front for our solutions, wouldn't you agree?
Do you find any flaw with this train of logic? Now we can say "we have tried all we can, this problem plagues pubbers and competitive players, so we now have suggestions to fix this". I've found the process constructive, despite having to make an epic post about XCom, but thats by the by, and you were all given fair warning.
Nad -
I dont know why you crave my attention, but I can assure you that one day you'll grow out of it, and learn to value yourself on your own merits without begging for the respect of others.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 18 2005, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 18 2005, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well considering necrosis probably has about 30000 more words posted in this thread then anyone else, I wouldn't really find ten one liners all that offenceive or arrogant. God knows clanners aren't the most humble group most of the time either... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Why would I think that clanners being arrogant is ok? I don't think it's ok for clanners to be egotistical either. But I've been clanning for like 1.5 years now in NS alone and I haven't seen any clanners that are as outright arrogant as Necrosis is with his "long undefeated streaks" and the game being too easy for him! Swift, 'clanners' aren't a single group of people and I don't know all (or even most) of them. Shrug <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Necrosis, I'm still waiting for you to counter a thing I said in my original post. Or why my proposed solutions wouldn't be good for the SC, or anything relevent to the topic at hand. I've already adressed your issues numerous times.
All I've seen is this huge boast coming from you about your tabletop experience, which in turn generates flames and as a result will get this thread of a huge essay and analysis I spent six hours working on to compile everything together locked.
Thanks!
Also, we are seeing a lot of people come out of the woodwork who agree with me, I'm glad my analysis was pretty much spot on. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Believe you me, a long undefeated streak is boring as hell. Well, it is if you thrive on a challenge. You don't get it.
NGE -
Please feel free to PM me if you feel that the comments from around Page 3 onwards have not been directed at your first post. I do of course note you replied to several of my comments, so please be so kind as not to lie that I havent made counterpoints.
The fact of the matter is that I consider the best solution to be the most intuitive. The most intuitive is to boost the obs slightly, as that is where most players are going to look for an SC counter. The SC itself is effectively the anti-obs. It grants limited MT, hides units as opposed to finding them, and offers a strategic advantage to defenders. If aliens have learned to cope with the marine version, I don't think its too hard to believe that marines can cope with the alien version.
It is a source of much amusement to me that I cannot reveal my gaming history because its arrogant, or boastful......... yet when same people reveal their gaming history, its neither arrogant nor boastful. Personally I consider both to be mere statements of historical fact, but the irony isn't lost on me that those would hoot arrogance are the same to push their own pedigree on others.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 18 2005, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 18 2005, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem isnt actually SCs, but how balance overall has affected SCs.
As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.
To be honest, with innate regen, I wouldn't even mind seeing the skulk's HP drop a little bit, thus putting more emphasis on the successful ambush.
Basically, I think the marines have a pretty nice power curve as it is and that it's the alien's curve that's screwed up. Aliens get a huge boost with the fade in the midgame, followed up with a wimpy onos in the end game.. hardly climatic. I want the Onos that the marines fear.. but to do that, something has to be done about the fade, because the two together would simply dominate.
All that making the obs cheaper will do is counter SCs. SCs are simply the flavor of the month currently because now aliens have the early game power to use them and not guaruntee a loss, and hey, when you're alien, they're a lot of fun. Cheaper obs counters the sensory, but still doesn't address the root problem that the aliens got a boost to their early game without any corresponding nerf in a game that was already very well balanced. Make SC's less useful and I'd bet you'll just see the MCs take their place with little change in the alien dominance.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 18 2005, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 18 2005, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem isnt actually SCs, but how balance overall has affected SCs.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.
Basically, I think the marines have a pretty nice power curve as it is and that it's the alien's curve that's screwed up. Aliens get a huge boost with the fade in the midgame, followed up with a wimpy onos in the end game.. hardly climatic. I want the Onos that the marines fear.. but to do that, something has to be done about the fade, because the two together would simply dominate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nad -
Believe you me, a long undefeated streak is boring as hell. Well, it is if you thrive on a challenge. You don't get it.
NGE -
Please feel free to PM me if you feel that the comments from around Page 3 onwards have not been directed at your first post. I do of course note you replied to several of my comments, so please be so kind as not to lie that I havent made counterpoints.
The fact of the matter is that I consider the best solution to be the most intuitive. The most intuitive is to boost the obs slightly, as that is where most players are going to look for an SC counter. The SC itself is effectively the anti-obs. It grants limited MT, hides units as opposed to finding them, and offers a strategic advantage to defenders. If aliens have learned to cope with the marine version, I don't think its too hard to believe that marines can cope with the alien version.
It is a source of much amusement to me that I cannot reveal my gaming history because its arrogant, or boastful......... yet when same people reveal their gaming history, its neither arrogant nor boastful. Personally I consider both to be mere statements of historical fact, but the irony isn't lost on me that those would hoot arrogance are the same to push their own pedigree on others.
Ah, the folly of youth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure we'd all love to hear your undefeated clan's name. Or wait... were you talking about your experiences as a professional tabletop gamer?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Girls, put your handbags away.
Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.
<b>Necrosis:</b> For someone who has never played competitive NS you sure act like you know a lot about it. You're like a school kid arguing with a university professor. You do not have the experience we have, you can't talk to us about balance and preach from a totally irrelevant game when we're talking about COMPETITIVE NS. When it comes to this subject, the people you're arguing with are the experts.
We've done it all, seen it all and in the world of NS, know it all. Between all the clanners here we have 1000's of PCWs and hours of competitive play under our belts. Why can you not simply take our word for it that this shite is wack. Why do you insist on arguing with us over every matter, everytime?
Oh and for the record, since the release of 3.0 i've seen more people stop playing NS out of total boredom and annoyance, myself included. I don't need 10 weeks and 100 matches to realise when something is broken, it was pretty flipping apparent after a few days. Everything has been done that can be done and people are leaving the game because balance has become so fubar.
NECROSIS: SAVIOUR OF THE PUBBERS, THE CLANNERS BANE, BRINGER OF ****!
Just good to know, that we hopefully all agree on the fact, that 3.5b was rine biased and that aliens got a huge boost in 3.0f, hence most old strats dont work as fine as they used to.
Personally i am wondering if the optimal gamze size is now 8vs8 and not 6vs6. Some other oppinions on this would be really nice.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 18 2005, 10:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 18 2005, 10:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 18 2005, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 18 2005, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem isnt actually SCs, but how balance overall has affected SCs.
As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.
To be honest, with innate regen, I wouldn't even mind seeing the skulk's HP drop a little bit, thus putting more emphasis on the successful ambush.
Basically, I think the marines have a pretty nice power curve as it is and that it's the alien's curve that's screwed up. Aliens get a huge boost with the fade in the midgame, followed up with a wimpy onos in the end game.. hardly climatic. I want the Onos that the marines fear.. but to do that, something has to be done about the fade, because the two together would simply dominate.
All that making the obs cheaper will do is counter SCs. SCs are simply the flavor of the month currently because now aliens have the early game power to use them and not guaruntee a loss, and hey, when you're alien, they're a lot of fun. Cheaper obs counters the sensory, but still doesn't address the root problem that the aliens got a boost to their early game without any corresponding nerf in a game that was already very well balanced. Make SC's less useful and I'd bet you'll just see the MCs take their place with little change in the alien dominance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> THIS is what we should be discussing
Kwil has hit the nail on the head imo...myself and others have mentioned this many times without having very much discussion on it
Now if Necrosis and everyone talking about and arguing with him would just shut up about it like i now have we can get onto a useful topic.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 18 2005, 09:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 18 2005, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necrosis, I'm still waiting for you to counter a thing I said in my original post. Or why my proposed solutions wouldn't be good for the SC, or anything relevent to the topic at hand. I've already adressed your issues numerous times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can adress that one. If you have played a fair bit of pubs you would knowtice that SC first games generally result in a marine win. The SC as a chamber still requires a fair bit of teamwork and knowhow to make work right, something that clans achive easily, but is much more hard to come by on your average pub game. Your ideas are all general SC nerfs, which further alienate to pub comunity from using the thing first as it would only mean more of a definate raping then they would be getting already. What we need to find is middle ground where the clanners don't feel the chamber is brutally unbalanced when they use teamwork, and the pubbers don't feel it is useless.
IMOH, the best method of doing that would be to decrease the inate cloak range of SC to the point were they are much easier to locate of a skulk pops up and uncloaks infront of you, and also an increase to the range and duration of obs pings, since seige are more usesless now. Other options to explore would be to allow the comm to drop hand grenades like ammo packs so marines can acctually use them for cloak finding, or even just allow marines to restock the things at the armory.
I'd also like to see the cloak percentage of cloak upgrade skulks decreased to something more around the 50% range. ATM they cloak up too fast and they are hard to see even when they are running at full speed. Like many people have already said, you shouldn't need a clearance from the optomitrist to be good at NS.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 19 2005, 06:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 19 2005, 06:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 18 2005, 09:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 18 2005, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necrosis, I'm still waiting for you to counter a thing I said in my original post. Or why my proposed solutions wouldn't be good for the SC, or anything relevent to the topic at hand. I've already adressed your issues numerous times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can adress that one. If you have played a fair bit of pubs you would knowtice that SC first games generally result in a marine win. The SC as a chamber still requires a fair bit of teamwork and knowhow to make work right, something that clans achive easily, but is much more hard to come by on your average pub game. Your ideas are all general SC nerfs, which further alienate to pub comunity from using the thing first as it would only mean more of a definate raping then they would be getting already. What we need to find is middle ground where the clanners don't feel the chamber is brutally unbalanced when they use teamwork, and the pubbers don't feel it is useless.
IMOH, the best method of doing that would be to decrease the inate cloak range of SC to the point were they are much easier to locate of a skulk pops up and uncloaks infront of you, and also an increase to the range and duration of obs pings, since seige are more usesless now. Other options to explore would be to allow the comm to drop hand grenades like ammo packs so marines can acctually use them for cloak finding, or even just allow marines to restock the things at the armory.
I'd also like to see the cloak percentage of cloak upgrade skulks decreased to something more around the 50% range. ATM they cloak up too fast and they are hard to see even when they are running at full speed. Like many people have already said, you shouldn't need a clearance from the optomitrist to be good at NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of the pubs I've played, SC usually results in an alien win.
However, notice I do list something that differs between pub and clan play; different upgrade costs depending on the two. Free upgrades makes all the chambers more effective, including sensory chambers, so I don't think nerfing sensory chambers will hurt pub play too much as aliens can still get the cloaking upgrade and become ghosts when in range of the sensory chamber.
Kwil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now see this is actually bad, because you are changing more than nessesary. Think of changes that would best benifit development; i.e. small changes.
You really think that nerfing the fade, changing HP values are going to fix things? If anything it will create more problems and you get another screwed up version.
Baby steps. Lets go back to older versions of things that worked well, for example the old sensory chamber could still work great at the second hive level, just not the first hive level on all maps.
Free upgrades were obviously too much in coordinated ambushes because of the nature of increased effectiveness of aliens in clan play.
Grendel:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel you don't need "numbers" to make an analysis. Just like in court of law, you can bring in experts and take their word as valid.
What you have here are experts, people with basically masters and ph.d's in NS.
You need numbers to disprove the experts, so if anything the burden of proof is on you, necrosis, and those who agree because you go against popular oppinion.
Just because we don't have the numbers to cement our positions; that's okay. Really, if the numbers were to be found in an accurate way, almost certainly they would support the clear majority here because you have people who are good at the game, spend a lot of time on the game, and are looking at things objectively.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now see this is actually bad, because you are changing more than nessesary. Think of changes that would best benifit development; i.e. small changes.
You really think that nerfing the fade, changing HP values are going to fix things? If anything it will create more problems and you get another screwed up version. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Out of curiousities sake, what small changes would you suggest we try to help fix this imbalance? Other than reverting back to b5, which would only keep this imbalance, but to a more balanced imbalance if that makes any sense.
The two 'easy' fixes would be to either nerf the fade or nerf the second hive, both of which will most likely have repercussions throughtout the pubbing AND competetive communities, however something needs to be done, and in my mind one of these 2 culprits of the strong alien midgame needs to be fixed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Freddeh+Mar 19 2005, 01:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Freddeh @ Mar 19 2005, 01:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> maybe because thats not the problem? You yourself posted nearly the same as i did in the sensory chamber post...lol <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem doesnt lie in the actual power of the aliens, but in the effect this new early game power has on the alien tech rate relative to marine tech rate.
Make the tech rates synched again and the game will be balanced.
You worded it wrong...extra staring res (say 20) would not help the marines early game as much as needed, and rightfully so as it is not incredibly bad as it is, however it would be a good mid game change because that extra 20 res will let you drop that early obs as well as the arms lab + a1, or advance the armory right away. the early obs gives you extra scanning power to use for later and the advanced armory is the midgame. So i see what you are talking about.
Sorry i went into scrutiny over wording.
Anyway now that i see where you are coming from a marine starting res boost COULD actually be an interesting idea...and small like people have been asking for when i propose the other ideas.
Anyway thumbs up from me.
(sorry i actually thought about the idea this time instead of focusing on the alien midgame changes and responing as such, my apologies for my prior post)
Anther thing to think about is that with the second hive being so strong, there is no need for a third one. A lot of times you see the hive skulk fade after the second hive goes up, both are secure, and the aliens have res control, instead of dropping hive three.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel you don't need "numbers" to make an analysis. Just like in court of law, you can bring in experts and take their word as valid.
What you have here are experts, people with basically masters and ph.d's in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I presume by your staggeringly unfortunate timing, you aren't aware of how much criticism "expert" witness have come under recently within the legal profession and the vast numbers of convictions that are being overturned as unsafe? But, that's kind of a side issue anyway. The allegory is irrelevant to the situation being discussed.
Another competitive player just labelled a comm as a medspam machine. That means you are a successful medspam machine. If you kids can decide on what its meant to be, please do so and we can potter on our ways.
Why do people have to produce numbers, stats, examples? Because thats how hard testing works. Otherwise some nub rolls in, claims he's played NS for a while, "tried stuff", and evidently the game is broken.
Walking in with some evidence helps. At least now we've some evidence that its a universal problem.
The fade doesn't need all the much of a nerf, but the Onos certainly needs a boost. I like the sound of NGEs percentage regen, because it would mean a regen onos could do a bit of damage. As it stands its usually cara onos hit and runs, followed by healing and DC. As soon as the marines can be chipped down to LA and LMGs the endgame gets to gather a bit more steam.
SC on the pub circuit... its a fast finish for a cohesive team. However, if the alien team messes up, the endgame takes forever - purely because marines STILL have to tech up their armour and slap obs down in order to slow down the few competent aliens.
With MC/DC you generally just follow the same procedures if its a coherent or incoherent alien team.
Pulling any number of server demos where a less coherent team has went SC first, we see the alien team dragging out the game until the marines have enough armour to laugh at any focus aliens. Generally the game drags out until all the focus fades are dead, then the end is rather swift.
I don't think thats a problem with fades, but more that marines have to spend their time countering the SC instead of actually countering the aliens. An obs boost ultimately means you need to build LESS obs, which means more res to be spent on countering focus.
As long as sieges don't damage aliens, scan/obs can be boosted a little more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You need numbers to disprove the experts <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the experts would be the dev team. I think they'll pay more attention to demos and hard fact as opposed to an insulated community with no real proof.
As it stands, aliens still have a less than stellar endgame, so they need to max out their game start. Focus does that really REALLY well, so even dirt poor alien teams can make a game last longer by going for the strong start of SC. Thats what drags the games out. They don't have the ability to follow up.
So, while the alien endgame needs an onos boost, the marine startgame vs SC is horrendously outclassed. Small boosts to existing marine infrastructure are going to be a LOT easier to test than sweeping changes to the alien HP, or nerfing specific classes.
The obs is considered to be the counter to SC, so why not focus on it as the key suspect? That way marine teams who don't use obs get rightly penalised, and those that do get a little boost so that it doesnt eat so much into other upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel you don't need "numbers" to make an analysis. Just like in court of law, you can bring in experts and take their word as valid.
What you have here are experts, people with basically masters and ph.d's in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I presume by your staggeringly unfortunate timing, you aren't aware of how much criticism "expert" witness have come under recently within the legal profession and the vast numbers of convictions that are being overturned as unsafe? But, that's kind of a side issue anyway. The allegory is irrelevant to the situation being discussed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Imagine a case where 10 or 20 experts came in and all said the same thing. Good luck disproving that in the courtroom.
Necrosis:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the experts would be the dev team. I think they'll pay more attention to demos and hard fact as opposed to an insulated community with no real proof.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the experts would be those who are best at doing whatever the said task is.
Developers are too busy making the game to actually be the experts at it. This is game theory 101 www.sirlin.net some really good stuff there if you haven't checked it out yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Developers often think they are the best players of their own games. They designed and programmed their games, after all, so they have many advantages. They know the actual equations and formulas the game uses. They know the AI routines. They know the nuances, and the little tricks they put in there. But in reality, the gamers outside the company have many, many more advantages than that. Shall we count the ways?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next, I can't understand why the obs should be boosted, rather than go back to an older version of the SC that wasn't broken. Again, as clearly identified in the original post SCs previously were too weak outside of the chamber, and only useful if the alien was within range of the cloaking field.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited March 2005
I think that decreasing observatory costs would really help, as would decreasing scan energy costs. Scans still cost too much to be used effective, and field obs are very costly, and can be taken down easily.
Of course, if the marines just get like 30, 40 extra res to begin with, they can reach midgame a bit quicker, and that'd help too.
Howeve,r I think that it'd help to weaken alien sensory midgame a bit. I mean, yes overall aliens are stronger in b6, but most of the compalints I've seen are with sensory being too strong because of overpowering early alien game. So, why not weakn the alien mid-game a bit but for sensory only? How? By not letting Fades take the Focus upgrade. If that were to happen, marine would have a much easier time, and not every single marine would need to carry a welder.
Another change could be letting the grenade launcher be dropped before the Adv. Armory is researched. As of right now, it's near impossible for marines to take out sensory chambers early on becasue they are usually placed in vents. Mine ladders cost too much time and res, and HGs just suck. Besides, having a GL early could be a nice alternative to scan if you suspect there is a cloaked alien in the next room.
EDIT: Fana, Ben, while I respect that you guys have lots of experience, you shouldn't resort to being rude. You sound egotistical as well in these posts, whether or not you are right, and whether or not Necrosis was being egotistical himself.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 20 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 20 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EDIT: Fana, Ben, while I respect that you guys have lots of experience, you shouldn't resort to being rude. You sound egotistical as well in these posts, whether or not you are right, and whether or not Necrosis was being egotistical himself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't have the patience to argue with his points, who are alltogether rubbish. I've been trying to show why he has no experience, and therefore has no place in a discussion about balance. He doesn't seem to understand this, while I've come to understand that he's quite simply too dense to reason with. Which is also why I haven't replied to his moronic rants in a while.
Alien endgame does not need a boost.
Alien midgame might need a nerf, but doing that could easily counter-balance the game. It seems like a risky proposition, and not one I'd like to jump into right away.
Alien early might need a nerf, and doing this would probably not counter-balance the game, because we'd simply revert to the way the game was played in 3.0b5.
Although midgame nerf might make the game more interesting, I'd say early game nerf is the way to go. Either that, or boost the marines.
Also, any point using public games as an example of why the game is balanced/unbalanced is instantly invalidated. Publics are in no way a good way to observe game balance, simply because teams are never balanced in a good way. Pubs are not organized, and do in no way push the game to its limits. There are too many variables to take into account, such as player skill or lack of skill for example, to even consider using it as reliable examples.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I personally consider 2 hives as alien end-game, because face it, aliens have won if they have 2 hives, unless they have absolutely 0 nodes for some odd reason. So yes, alien end game is fine. I do want to see Fades nerfed a bit. Maybe nerf their upgrade bonuses. And definitely take focus away from Fades.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 19 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 19 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Imagine a case where 10 or 20 experts came in and all said the same thing. Good luck disproving that in the courtroom.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If 10 to 20 experts said the same thing, all we would have is informal proof. It only takes one expert with numbers (formal proof) to completely neglect the informal proof of all those so called experts on that subject. Numbers will always reign supreme, regardless of how much informality it faces.
an amx plugin that recorded certain gameplay statistics and then reported them to a central database could help gather a lot of good data for pubs and competitive play. it wouldn't be intrusive toward gameplay either, and it could help us get data to fix these problems.
<!--QuoteBegin-FCC+Mar 19 2005, 07:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FCC @ Mar 19 2005, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 19 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 19 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Imagine a case where 10 or 20 experts came in and all said the same thing. Good luck disproving that in the courtroom.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If 10 to 20 experts said the same thing, all we would have is informal proof. It only takes one expert with numbers (formal proof) to completely neglect the informal proof of all those so called experts on that subject. Numbers will always reign supreme, regardless of how much informality it faces. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right. That's if the magical numbers rolled around to disprove the other 20 experts.
Till then, it's good luck. I sincerely doubt that if the amount of people came about and all the said the same thing, that the numbers would be any different from what they said.
You know, one expert says, "Hey, I've written this bestseller and have a double Ph.D", the next says "I've probably researched this subject for over 15 works." and the next says "I've spent 30 years on this subject with no malpractice (malpractice is not strictly a medical term) charges ever brought against me, and I agree with the said claims." and so on from 17 other experts, do you REALLY think that numbers are going to magically appear to disprove them?
No way, these experts <b>are the numbers!</b>
Right now it's almost unanomous that the aliens have the heavy favor, and my analysis attempts to show it comes down to chamber balance.
Critics say, "Adapt", but this doesn't make any sense. Like the skilled hunter analogy brought up in my original post, the skilled NS clanner is the fastest player to adapt.
People use recycled strategies, but I can guarentee you that all the clanners as a whole are 10x more inventive than pubbers simply because of their invested hours in the game, and friction with other clans who are trying other things! As opposed to pubbers, who tend to frequent only one server, you there have a stagnated population that actually caries far less variety on that one server than one clan.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 19 2005, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 19 2005, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Right. That's if the magical numbers rolled around to disprove the other 20 experts.
Till then, it's good luck. I sincerely doubt that if the amount of people came about and all the said the same thing, that the numbers would be any different from what they said.
You know, one expert says, "Hey, I've written this bestseller and have a double Ph.D", the next says "I've probably researched this subject for over 15 works." and the next says "I've spent 30 years on this subject with no malpractice (malpractice is not strictly a medical term) charges ever brought against me, and I agree with the said claims." and so on from 17 other experts, do you REALLY think that numbers are going to magically appear to disprove them?
No way, these experts <b>are the numbers!</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps we should define the term expert. Is it someone who is knowledgeable in the subject at hand with formal proof, or simply someone who "goes with the flow?" Could I not simply repeat the statements that other so called experts stated, and proceed to consider myself an expert? What then is my proof? The other experts? And what are other expert's proof? The cycle continues. Your whole concept of experts collaborating to whole a unified proof is nothing more than a paradigm. Are you familiar with the Newtonian Paradigm? Hundreds of experts. And one man came along with his "magical numbers" and proved them all wrong: Einsten. And it was not like the Newtonian did not have formal proof. They did but it was flawed, but not as flawed as those with only informal proof.
Magical numbers do magically appear and disprove ideas. I am no way saying your analysis is incorrect; I am pleased to see someone who tries to voice his opinion on the chamber subject in a comprensible way. But numbers are an essential component of any proof.
Comments
I don't consider SC to be overpowered, no. Tricky to counter, yes. I believe there IS a counter and we're just stumbling towards it. Currently, on pubs, SC games take longer for marines to win. However, the period of time IS getting shorter. Whether thats because more nubs are dropping SC is debatable. It could be that we're getting towards a solution. It could be that idiots are dropping SC and have no idea how to use it *shrug*
However, thats only one side of the coin.
In order to get a balanced opinion, I need to know what you guys have been trying to counter it with. Thats why I wanted answers, not "we did stuff". I mean, if SC really is so broken then the "stuff you did" isnt going to matter much because next version it would be fixed.
Ideally I was hoping that we could come up with something a bit closer to a counter... as it is all I see are tactical dead ends. Both groups have tried to pull it off, both groups can't do it. This gives us a unified front for our solutions, wouldn't you agree?
Do you find any flaw with this train of logic? Now we can say "we have tried all we can, this problem plagues pubbers and competitive players, so we now have suggestions to fix this". I've found the process constructive, despite having to make an epic post about XCom, but thats by the by, and you were all given fair warning.
Nad -
I dont know why you crave my attention, but I can assure you that one day you'll grow out of it, and learn to value yourself on your own merits without begging for the respect of others.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Why would I think that clanners being arrogant is ok? I don't think it's ok for clanners to be egotistical either. But I've been clanning for like 1.5 years now in NS alone and I haven't seen any clanners that are as outright arrogant as Necrosis is with his "long undefeated streaks" and the game being too easy for him!
Swift, 'clanners' aren't a single group of people and I don't know all (or even most) of them. Shrug <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
All I've seen is this huge boast coming from you about your tabletop experience, which in turn generates flames and as a result will get this thread of a huge essay and analysis I spent six hours working on to compile everything together locked.
Thanks!
Also, we are seeing a lot of people come out of the woodwork who agree with me, I'm glad my analysis was pretty much spot on. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Believe you me, a long undefeated streak is boring as hell. Well, it is if you thrive on a challenge. You don't get it.
NGE -
Please feel free to PM me if you feel that the comments from around Page 3 onwards have not been directed at your first post. I do of course note you replied to several of my comments, so please be so kind as not to lie that I havent made counterpoints.
The fact of the matter is that I consider the best solution to be the most intuitive. The most intuitive is to boost the obs slightly, as that is where most players are going to look for an SC counter. The SC itself is effectively the anti-obs. It grants limited MT, hides units as opposed to finding them, and offers a strategic advantage to defenders. If aliens have learned to cope with the marine version, I don't think its too hard to believe that marines can cope with the alien version.
It is a source of much amusement to me that I cannot reveal my gaming history because its arrogant, or boastful......... yet when same people reveal their gaming history, its neither arrogant nor boastful. Personally I consider both to be mere statements of historical fact, but the irony isn't lost on me that those would hoot arrogance are the same to push their own pedigree on others.
Ah, the folly of youth.
Oh please
As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.
To be honest, with innate regen, I wouldn't even mind seeing the skulk's HP drop a little bit, thus putting more emphasis on the successful ambush.
Basically, I think the marines have a pretty nice power curve as it is and that it's the alien's curve that's screwed up. Aliens get a huge boost with the fade in the midgame, followed up with a wimpy onos in the end game.. hardly climatic. I want the Onos that the marines fear.. but to do that, something has to be done about the fade, because the two together would simply dominate.
All that making the obs cheaper will do is counter SCs. SCs are simply the flavor of the month currently because now aliens have the early game power to use them and not guaruntee a loss, and hey, when you're alien, they're a lot of fun. Cheaper obs counters the sensory, but still doesn't address the root problem that the aliens got a boost to their early game without any corresponding nerf in a game that was already very well balanced. Make SC's less useful and I'd bet you'll just see the MCs take their place with little change in the alien dominance.
The problem isnt actually SCs, but how balance overall has affected SCs.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.
Basically, I think the marines have a pretty nice power curve as it is and that it's the alien's curve that's screwed up. Aliens get a huge boost with the fade in the midgame, followed up with a wimpy onos in the end game.. hardly climatic. I want the Onos that the marines fear.. but to do that, something has to be done about the fade, because the two together would simply dominate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree
Believe you me, a long undefeated streak is boring as hell. Well, it is if you thrive on a challenge. You don't get it.
NGE -
Please feel free to PM me if you feel that the comments from around Page 3 onwards have not been directed at your first post. I do of course note you replied to several of my comments, so please be so kind as not to lie that I havent made counterpoints.
The fact of the matter is that I consider the best solution to be the most intuitive. The most intuitive is to boost the obs slightly, as that is where most players are going to look for an SC counter. The SC itself is effectively the anti-obs. It grants limited MT, hides units as opposed to finding them, and offers a strategic advantage to defenders. If aliens have learned to cope with the marine version, I don't think its too hard to believe that marines can cope with the alien version.
It is a source of much amusement to me that I cannot reveal my gaming history because its arrogant, or boastful......... yet when same people reveal their gaming history, its neither arrogant nor boastful. Personally I consider both to be mere statements of historical fact, but the irony isn't lost on me that those would hoot arrogance are the same to push their own pedigree on others.
Ah, the folly of youth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure we'd all love to hear your undefeated clan's name. Or wait... were you talking about your experiences as a professional tabletop gamer?
Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.
That would be cool.
We've done it all, seen it all and in the world of NS, know it all. Between all the clanners here we have 1000's of PCWs and hours of competitive play under our belts. Why can you not simply take our word for it that this shite is wack. Why do you insist on arguing with us over every matter, everytime?
Oh and for the record, since the release of 3.0 i've seen more people stop playing NS out of total boredom and annoyance, myself included. I don't need 10 weeks and 100 matches to realise when something is broken, it was pretty flipping apparent after a few days. Everything has been done that can be done and people are leaving the game because balance has become so fubar.
NECROSIS: SAVIOUR OF THE PUBBERS, THE CLANNERS BANE, BRINGER OF ****!
Just good to know, that we hopefully all agree on the fact, that 3.5b was rine biased and that aliens got a huge boost in 3.0f, hence most old strats dont work as fine as they used to.
Personally i am wondering if the optimal gamze size is now 8vs8 and not 6vs6.
Some other oppinions on this would be really nice.
As it is, regardless of chamber choice, the khaara have a stronger early game. This leads to them entering mid game earlier, and the marine mid game being delayed - compared to b5.
What could solve the problem is to speed marine tech rate up some way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.
To be honest, with innate regen, I wouldn't even mind seeing the skulk's HP drop a little bit, thus putting more emphasis on the successful ambush.
Basically, I think the marines have a pretty nice power curve as it is and that it's the alien's curve that's screwed up. Aliens get a huge boost with the fade in the midgame, followed up with a wimpy onos in the end game.. hardly climatic. I want the Onos that the marines fear.. but to do that, something has to be done about the fade, because the two together would simply dominate.
All that making the obs cheaper will do is counter SCs. SCs are simply the flavor of the month currently because now aliens have the early game power to use them and not guaruntee a loss, and hey, when you're alien, they're a lot of fun. Cheaper obs counters the sensory, but still doesn't address the root problem that the aliens got a boost to their early game without any corresponding nerf in a game that was already very well balanced. Make SC's less useful and I'd bet you'll just see the MCs take their place with little change in the alien dominance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS is what we should be discussing
Kwil has hit the nail on the head imo...myself and others have mentioned this many times without having very much discussion on it
Now if Necrosis and everyone talking about and arguing with him would just shut up about it like i now have we can get onto a useful topic.
I can adress that one. If you have played a fair bit of pubs you would knowtice that SC first games generally result in a marine win. The SC as a chamber still requires a fair bit of teamwork and knowhow to make work right, something that clans achive easily, but is much more hard to come by on your average pub game. Your ideas are all general SC nerfs, which further alienate to pub comunity from using the thing first as it would only mean more of a definate raping then they would be getting already. What we need to find is middle ground where the clanners don't feel the chamber is brutally unbalanced when they use teamwork, and the pubbers don't feel it is useless.
IMOH, the best method of doing that would be to decrease the inate cloak range of SC to the point were they are much easier to locate of a skulk pops up and uncloaks infront of you, and also an increase to the range and duration of obs pings, since seige are more usesless now. Other options to explore would be to allow the comm to drop hand grenades like ammo packs so marines can acctually use them for cloak finding, or even just allow marines to restock the things at the armory.
I'd also like to see the cloak percentage of cloak upgrade skulks decreased to something more around the 50% range. ATM they cloak up too fast and they are hard to see even when they are running at full speed. Like many people have already said, you shouldn't need a clearance from the optomitrist to be good at NS.
I can adress that one. If you have played a fair bit of pubs you would knowtice that SC first games generally result in a marine win. The SC as a chamber still requires a fair bit of teamwork and knowhow to make work right, something that clans achive easily, but is much more hard to come by on your average pub game. Your ideas are all general SC nerfs, which further alienate to pub comunity from using the thing first as it would only mean more of a definate raping then they would be getting already. What we need to find is middle ground where the clanners don't feel the chamber is brutally unbalanced when they use teamwork, and the pubbers don't feel it is useless.
IMOH, the best method of doing that would be to decrease the inate cloak range of SC to the point were they are much easier to locate of a skulk pops up and uncloaks infront of you, and also an increase to the range and duration of obs pings, since seige are more usesless now. Other options to explore would be to allow the comm to drop hand grenades like ammo packs so marines can acctually use them for cloak finding, or even just allow marines to restock the things at the armory.
I'd also like to see the cloak percentage of cloak upgrade skulks decreased to something more around the 50% range. ATM they cloak up too fast and they are hard to see even when they are running at full speed. Like many people have already said, you shouldn't need a clearance from the optomitrist to be good at NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of the pubs I've played, SC usually results in an alien win.
However, notice I do list something that differs between pub and clan play; different upgrade costs depending on the two. Free upgrades makes all the chambers more effective, including sensory chambers, so I don't think nerfing sensory chambers will hurt pub play too much as aliens can still get the cloaking upgrade and become ghosts when in range of the sensory chamber.
Kwil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now see this is actually bad, because you are changing more than nessesary. Think of changes that would best benifit development; i.e. small changes.
You really think that nerfing the fade, changing HP values are going to fix things? If anything it will create more problems and you get another screwed up version.
Baby steps. Lets go back to older versions of things that worked well, for example the old sensory chamber could still work great at the second hive level, just not the first hive level on all maps.
Free upgrades were obviously too much in coordinated ambushes because of the nature of increased effectiveness of aliens in clan play.
Grendel:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel you don't need "numbers" to make an analysis. Just like in court of law, you can bring in experts and take their word as valid.
What you have here are experts, people with basically masters and ph.d's in NS.
You need numbers to disprove the experts, so if anything the burden of proof is on you, necrosis, and those who agree because you go against popular oppinion.
Just because we don't have the numbers to cement our positions; that's okay. Really, if the numbers were to be found in an accurate way, almost certainly they would support the clear majority here because you have people who are good at the game, spend a lot of time on the game, and are looking at things objectively.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just thought I'd highlight this point, again.
Personally though, I'd prefer that instead of pumping up the marine's early game, we bring down the alien's midgame some. (ie, fade nerf)
Why? Because this lets the marines get into the midgame on even footing and continue in their normal power-up sequence, but then that would require some pumping of the alien's endgame instead of the current "coasting" endgame that they have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now see this is actually bad, because you are changing more than nessesary. Think of changes that would best benifit development; i.e. small changes.
You really think that nerfing the fade, changing HP values are going to fix things? If anything it will create more problems and you get another screwed up version. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of curiousities sake, what small changes would you suggest we try to help fix this imbalance? Other than reverting back to b5, which would only keep this imbalance, but to a more balanced imbalance if that makes any sense.
The two 'easy' fixes would be to either nerf the fade or nerf the second hive, both of which will most likely have repercussions throughtout the pubbing AND competetive communities, however something needs to be done, and in my mind one of these 2 culprits of the strong alien midgame needs to be fixed.
The problem doesnt lie in the actual power of the aliens, but in the effect this new early game power has on the alien tech rate relative to marine tech rate.
Make the tech rates synched again and the game will be balanced.
Sorry i went into scrutiny over wording.
Anyway now that i see where you are coming from a marine starting res boost COULD actually be an interesting idea...and small like people have been asking for when i propose the other ideas.
Anyway thumbs up from me.
(sorry i actually thought about the idea this time instead of focusing on the alien midgame changes and responing as such, my apologies for my prior post)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel you don't need "numbers" to make an analysis. Just like in court of law, you can bring in experts and take their word as valid.
What you have here are experts, people with basically masters and ph.d's in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I presume by your staggeringly unfortunate timing, you aren't aware of how much criticism "expert" witness have come under recently within the legal profession and the vast numbers of convictions that are being overturned as unsafe? But, that's kind of a side issue anyway. The allegory is irrelevant to the situation being discussed.
Already answered. Keep up.
Ben-
Another competitive player just labelled a comm as a medspam machine. That means you are a successful medspam machine. If you kids can decide on what its meant to be, please do so and we can potter on our ways.
Why do people have to produce numbers, stats, examples? Because thats how hard testing works. Otherwise some nub rolls in, claims he's played NS for a while, "tried stuff", and evidently the game is broken.
Walking in with some evidence helps. At least now we've some evidence that its a universal problem.
The fade doesn't need all the much of a nerf, but the Onos certainly needs a boost. I like the sound of NGEs percentage regen, because it would mean a regen onos could do a bit of damage. As it stands its usually cara onos hit and runs, followed by healing and DC. As soon as the marines can be chipped down to LA and LMGs the endgame gets to gather a bit more steam.
SC on the pub circuit... its a fast finish for a cohesive team. However, if the alien team messes up, the endgame takes forever - purely because marines STILL have to tech up their armour and slap obs down in order to slow down the few competent aliens.
With MC/DC you generally just follow the same procedures if its a coherent or incoherent alien team.
Pulling any number of server demos where a less coherent team has went SC first, we see the alien team dragging out the game until the marines have enough armour to laugh at any focus aliens. Generally the game drags out until all the focus fades are dead, then the end is rather swift.
I don't think thats a problem with fades, but more that marines have to spend their time countering the SC instead of actually countering the aliens. An obs boost ultimately means you need to build LESS obs, which means more res to be spent on countering focus.
As long as sieges don't damage aliens, scan/obs can be boosted a little more.
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You need numbers to disprove the experts
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Yes, the experts would be the dev team. I think they'll pay more attention to demos and hard fact as opposed to an insulated community with no real proof.
As it stands, aliens still have a less than stellar endgame, so they need to max out their game start. Focus does that really REALLY well, so even dirt poor alien teams can make a game last longer by going for the strong start of SC. Thats what drags the games out. They don't have the ability to follow up.
So, while the alien endgame needs an onos boost, the marine startgame vs SC is horrendously outclassed. Small boosts to existing marine infrastructure are going to be a LOT easier to test than sweeping changes to the alien HP, or nerfing specific classes.
The obs is considered to be the counter to SC, so why not focus on it as the key suspect? That way marine teams who don't use obs get rightly penalised, and those that do get a little boost so that it doesnt eat so much into other upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not spend the time you've all wasted with bitchy rhetoric actually posting some numbers? That would be the best way to make your point in a manner that no one could debate. All you need is some 3.0 Final HLTV demos, a pen and some rudimentary maths and statistical analysis skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel you don't need "numbers" to make an analysis. Just like in court of law, you can bring in experts and take their word as valid.
What you have here are experts, people with basically masters and ph.d's in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I presume by your staggeringly unfortunate timing, you aren't aware of how much criticism "expert" witness have come under recently within the legal profession and the vast numbers of convictions that are being overturned as unsafe? But, that's kind of a side issue anyway. The allegory is irrelevant to the situation being discussed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine a case where 10 or 20 experts came in and all said the same thing. Good luck disproving that in the courtroom.
Necrosis:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the experts would be the dev team. I think they'll pay more attention to demos and hard fact as opposed to an insulated community with no real proof.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the experts would be those who are best at doing whatever the said task is.
Developers are too busy making the game to actually be the experts at it. This is game theory 101 www.sirlin.net some really good stuff there if you haven't checked it out yet.
Start here:
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_GameBalancePart1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_GameBalancePart1.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Developers often think they are the best players of their own games. They designed and programmed their games, after all, so they have many advantages. They know the actual equations and formulas the game uses. They know the AI routines. They know the nuances, and the little tricks they put in there. But in reality, the gamers outside the company have many, many more advantages than that. Shall we count the ways?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next, I can't understand why the obs should be boosted, rather than go back to an older version of the SC that wasn't broken. Again, as clearly identified in the original post SCs previously were too weak outside of the chamber, and only useful if the alien was within range of the cloaking field.
Of course, if the marines just get like 30, 40 extra res to begin with, they can reach midgame a bit quicker, and that'd help too.
Howeve,r I think that it'd help to weaken alien sensory midgame a bit. I mean, yes overall aliens are stronger in b6, but most of the compalints I've seen are with sensory being too strong because of overpowering early alien game. So, why not weakn the alien mid-game a bit but for sensory only? How? By not letting Fades take the Focus upgrade. If that were to happen, marine would have a much easier time, and not every single marine would need to carry a welder.
Another change could be letting the grenade launcher be dropped before the Adv. Armory is researched. As of right now, it's near impossible for marines to take out sensory chambers early on becasue they are usually placed in vents. Mine ladders cost too much time and res, and HGs just suck. Besides, having a GL early could be a nice alternative to scan if you suspect there is a cloaked alien in the next room.
EDIT: Fana, Ben, while I respect that you guys have lots of experience, you shouldn't resort to being rude. You sound egotistical as well in these posts, whether or not you are right, and whether or not Necrosis was being egotistical himself.
I really don't have the patience to argue with his points, who are alltogether rubbish. I've been trying to show why he has no experience, and therefore has no place in a discussion about balance. He doesn't seem to understand this, while I've come to understand that he's quite simply too dense to reason with. Which is also why I haven't replied to his moronic rants in a while.
Alien endgame does not need a boost.
Alien midgame might need a nerf, but doing that could easily counter-balance the game. It seems like a risky proposition, and not one I'd like to jump into right away.
Alien early might need a nerf, and doing this would probably not counter-balance the game, because we'd simply revert to the way the game was played in 3.0b5.
Although midgame nerf might make the game more interesting, I'd say early game nerf is the way to go. Either that, or boost the marines.
Also, any point using public games as an example of why the game is balanced/unbalanced is instantly invalidated. Publics are in no way a good way to observe game balance, simply because teams are never balanced in a good way. Pubs are not organized, and do in no way push the game to its limits. There are too many variables to take into account, such as player skill or lack of skill for example, to even consider using it as reliable examples.
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If 10 to 20 experts said the same thing, all we would have is informal proof. It only takes one expert with numbers (formal proof) to completely neglect the informal proof of all those so called experts on that subject. Numbers will always reign supreme, regardless of how much informality it faces.
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If 10 to 20 experts said the same thing, all we would have is informal proof. It only takes one expert with numbers (formal proof) to completely neglect the informal proof of all those so called experts on that subject. Numbers will always reign supreme, regardless of how much informality it faces. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. That's if the magical numbers rolled around to disprove the other 20 experts.
Till then, it's good luck. I sincerely doubt that if the amount of people came about and all the said the same thing, that the numbers would be any different from what they said.
You know, one expert says, "Hey, I've written this bestseller and have a double Ph.D", the next says "I've probably researched this subject for over 15 works." and the next says "I've spent 30 years on this subject with no malpractice (malpractice is not strictly a medical term) charges ever brought against me, and I agree with the said claims." and so on from 17 other experts, do you REALLY think that numbers are going to magically appear to disprove them?
No way, these experts <b>are the numbers!</b>
Right now it's almost unanomous that the aliens have the heavy favor, and my analysis attempts to show it comes down to chamber balance.
Critics say, "Adapt", but this doesn't make any sense. Like the skilled hunter analogy brought up in my original post, the skilled NS clanner is the fastest player to adapt.
People use recycled strategies, but I can guarentee you that all the clanners as a whole are 10x more inventive than pubbers simply because of their invested hours in the game, and friction with other clans who are trying other things! As opposed to pubbers, who tend to frequent only one server, you there have a stagnated population that actually caries far less variety on that one server than one clan.
Till then, it's good luck. I sincerely doubt that if the amount of people came about and all the said the same thing, that the numbers would be any different from what they said.
You know, one expert says, "Hey, I've written this bestseller and have a double Ph.D", the next says "I've probably researched this subject for over 15 works." and the next says "I've spent 30 years on this subject with no malpractice (malpractice is not strictly a medical term) charges ever brought against me, and I agree with the said claims." and so on from 17 other experts, do you REALLY think that numbers are going to magically appear to disprove them?
No way, these experts <b>are the numbers!</b>
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Perhaps we should define the term expert. Is it someone who is knowledgeable in the subject at hand with formal proof, or simply someone who "goes with the flow?" Could I not simply repeat the statements that other so called experts stated, and proceed to consider myself an expert? What then is my proof? The other experts? And what are other expert's proof? The cycle continues. Your whole concept of experts collaborating to whole a unified proof is nothing more than a paradigm. Are you familiar with the Newtonian Paradigm? Hundreds of experts. And one man came along with his "magical numbers" and proved them all wrong: Einsten. And it was not like the Newtonian did not have formal proof. They did but it was flawed, but not as flawed as those with only informal proof.
Magical numbers do magically appear and disprove ideas. I am no way saying your analysis is incorrect; I am pleased to see someone who tries to voice his opinion on the chamber subject in a comprensible way. But numbers are an essential component of any proof.