<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 24 2005, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 24 2005, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well the problem with that swiftspear, is that every clan i've ever heard of has a stronger side. Every clan when playing themselves would win one side most the time.
Just throwing a wrench in this hypothetical nonsense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, that kind of experimental test is far too small scale to get accurate data out of. What we would be looking for is the point at which any given clan game is just as likely to M/M tie as it is to A/A tie, and a win is not a stolen game in the round that you are statisically supposed to lose, but rather just a proof positive event in which your team outclassed the other team at play in both races.
After deliberation, I've come to the conclusions that there are way too few NS teams to even consider using statistics to prove anything. The margin of error would just be too great for it to be useful for any other thing than a preliminary indication.
I liked where you where going with SoF area in the SC spot combining with the upgrade but if you have the cloaking upgrade you don't USE the area of SC to cloak, you get it anywhere.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 2 2005, 11:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 2 2005, 11:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Coris, how many teams are there in europe? I thought there were at least 15 solid teams? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know exactly how many there are since a couple of new teams have started up lately. 15-20 perhaps. (estimation)
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 2 2005, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 2 2005, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 2 2005, 11:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 2 2005, 11:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Coris, how many teams are there in europe? I thought there were at least 15 solid teams? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know exactly how many there are since a couple of new teams have started up lately. 15-20 perhaps. (estimation) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> good active ones?
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 24 2005, 06:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 24 2005, 06:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After deliberation, I've come to the conclusions that there are way too few NS teams to even consider using statistics to prove anything. The margin of error would just be too great for it to be useful for any other thing than a preliminary indication.
/end useless post <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm bumping this post because of good timing.
Does anyone still think that sensory chambers aren't overpowered?
After the NS finals match, going a record <b>7</b> tiebreaker rounds? And every time the alien team used sensory chambers.
To all the people who claimed I needed numbers, there you are.
Now can we have real discussion on the sensory chamber without all petty squabble of before?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Apr 13 2005, 07:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Apr 13 2005, 07:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 24 2005, 06:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 24 2005, 06:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After deliberation, I've come to the conclusions that there are way too few NS teams to even consider using statistics to prove anything. The margin of error would just be too great for it to be useful for any other thing than a preliminary indication.
/end useless post <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm bumping this post because of good timing.
Does anyone still think that sensory chambers aren't overpowered?
After the NS finals match, going a record <b>7</b> tiebreaker rounds? And every time the alien team used sensory chambers.
To all the people who claimed I needed numbers, there you are.
Now can we have real discussion on the sensory chamber without all petty squabble of before? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Regardless of the veracity of your arguments or reasons for your thread necromancy, the example you cite is possibly the worst I can imagine. All it "proves" is that Exigent and Terror feel that sensory is the best option against the other team.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Ots+Apr 13 2005, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ots @ Apr 13 2005, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Grendel's on crack, has to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or conceivably, I might know a little bit more about causality. I'm not arguing with his assertion, just the bs "logic" he uses to back it up with.
It's like the right wing logical fallacy:
"I got robbed by a black guy. I've only ever been robbed twice and in both instances the guy was black. Therefore, all criminals are black."
If anyone reading the above is having difficulty understanding what I'm talking about, ask someone who can read without moving their lips to explain it to you, since it should be patently obvious to anyone with an education that covers the most basic aspects of cause and effect.
I agree with Grendel, that is in no way acceptable as some kind of proof. I do think it's a good indication that something is wrong, and my gut feeling, after having played and reasoned around this for more than a month now, *still* is that something's wrong.
But yes, lets please stop using faulty logic to try to prove our points and instead be rational about it and accept that we cant PROVE we are right, we can only supply examples and calculations of how we THINK it is.
Grendal, Neither Exi, nor Terror ever went sensory. He was talking about Console's alien domination of LoC. If you go watch the demos you'll see what he's talking about.
NGE, I think that SC's are not balanced, but i think that its a secondary issue. The aliens are biased in general and it has more to do with free upgrades. How this problem translates to the SC is why people think its the SC.
Honestly, it might just be taking a while for people to adapt though. There are weaknesses in sc. The main one is that fades can't defend the 2nd hive. Get a pg up, get an obs up and some mines down and put some shotties through. Hive is down, after the fade dies or gets chased off.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 13 2005, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 13 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, it might just be taking a while for people to adapt though. There are weaknesses in sc. The main one is that fades can't defend the 2nd hive. Get a pg up, get an obs up and some mines down and put some shotties through. Hive is down, after the fade dies or gets chased off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu.
knife ownage rab output ws final ? ? ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> config lucky intrepid care levitacus? lessthanthree? (inactive afaik) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They merged with lucky to form less than lucky (<lucky) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 13 2005, 12:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 13 2005, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Apr 13 2005, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Apr 13 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, it might just be taking a while for people to adapt though. There are weaknesses in sc. The main one is that fades can't defend the 2nd hive. Get a pg up, get an obs up and some mines down and put some shotties through. Hive is down, after the fade dies or gets chased off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hmmm, and where is this going to be happening? In the second hive? If a gorge is healing a hurt fade in the second hive, and my 4-5 shotgunners go in, the fade is going to run, the gorge is going to die, and the hive is going to go down.
Plus gorges can't heal a fade too quickly anyway. Surely not fast enough to be stopping a shotgun attack on a hive.
So how'd these shotgunners make it that far? I'd be surprised to see them get anywhere constantly rewelding and spending res on meds due to a single SOF lerk, and these focus fades just mopping up easy 1 hit kills. Keeping in mind plenty of focus skulks will be coming your way.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Apr 13 2005, 01:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Apr 13 2005, 01:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 24 2005, 06:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 24 2005, 06:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After deliberation, I've come to the conclusions that there are way too few NS teams to even consider using statistics to prove anything. The margin of error would just be too great for it to be useful for any other thing than a preliminary indication.
/end useless post <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm bumping this post because of good timing.
Does anyone still think that sensory chambers aren't overpowered?
After the NS finals match, going a record <b>7</b> tiebreaker rounds? And every time the alien team used sensory chambers.
To all the people who claimed I needed numbers, there you are.
Now can we have real discussion on the sensory chamber without all petty squabble of before? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Neither team went sensory first, and some rounds were very close. Also, all marine rounds were won on veil.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Well now, do you think that's because of Veil being marine-biased, or because HMGs are too strong? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> , 007?
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 13 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 13 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well now, do you think that's because of Veil being marine-biased, or because HMGs are too strong? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> , 007? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Definitely not HMGs because I only saw like 3 in all of the marine rounds :o
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 13 2005, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 13 2005, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well imagine that! I wonder why more HMGs were not dropped if they are the uber killing machines that no lifeform can stand up-to... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because we didn't upgrade our armory for a longgggg time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong. Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Apr 14 2005, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Apr 14 2005, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wrong. Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT YOU SAY?? TEAMWORK?!?!!
Made me smile. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah. (especially) with good teamwork, sc is pretty much impossible to counter. no matter - this is important - no matter how hard the marines try, or how many "crazy" tactics they try.
Comments
Just throwing a wrench in this hypothetical nonsense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, that kind of experimental test is far too small scale to get accurate data out of. What we would be looking for is the point at which any given clan game is just as likely to M/M tie as it is to A/A tie, and a win is not a stolen game in the round that you are statisically supposed to lose, but rather just a proof positive event in which your team outclassed the other team at play in both races.
/end useless post
I don't know exactly how many there are since a couple of new teams have started up lately. 15-20 perhaps. (estimation)
I don't know exactly how many there are since a couple of new teams have started up lately. 15-20 perhaps. (estimation) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
good active ones?
lies
knife
ownage
rab
output
ws
final
?
?
?
/end useless post <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm bumping this post because of good timing.
Does anyone still think that sensory chambers aren't overpowered?
After the NS finals match, going a record <b>7</b> tiebreaker rounds? And every time the alien team used sensory chambers.
To all the people who claimed I needed numbers, there you are.
Now can we have real discussion on the sensory chamber without all petty squabble of before?
/end useless post <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm bumping this post because of good timing.
Does anyone still think that sensory chambers aren't overpowered?
After the NS finals match, going a record <b>7</b> tiebreaker rounds? And every time the alien team used sensory chambers.
To all the people who claimed I needed numbers, there you are.
Now can we have real discussion on the sensory chamber without all petty squabble of before? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless of the veracity of your arguments or reasons for your thread necromancy, the example you cite is possibly the worst I can imagine. All it "proves" is that Exigent and Terror feel that sensory is the best option against the other team.
Or conceivably, I might know a little bit more about causality. I'm not arguing with his assertion, just the bs "logic" he uses to back it up with.
It's like the right wing logical fallacy:
"I got robbed by a black guy. I've only ever been robbed twice and in both instances the guy was black. Therefore, all criminals are black."
If anyone reading the above is having difficulty understanding what I'm talking about, ask someone who can read without moving their lips to explain it to you, since it should be patently obvious to anyone with an education that covers the most basic aspects of cause and effect.
But yes, lets please stop using faulty logic to try to prove our points and instead be rational about it and accept that we cant PROVE we are right, we can only supply examples and calculations of how we THINK it is.
Silence scares me just as much, if not more.
I dont' get why everyone's hung up on sensory.
NGE, I think that SC's are not balanced, but i think that its a secondary issue. The aliens are biased in general and it has more to do with free upgrades. How this problem translates to the SC is why people think its the SC.
Honestly, it might just be taking a while for people to adapt though. There are weaknesses in sc. The main one is that fades can't defend the 2nd hive. Get a pg up, get an obs up and some mines down and put some shotties through. Hive is down, after the fade dies or gets chased off.
Wrong.
Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu.
knife
ownage
rab
output
ws
final
?
?
? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
config
lucky
intrepid
care
levitacus?
lessthanthree? (inactive afaik)
knife
ownage
rab
output
ws
final
?
?
? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
config
lucky
intrepid
care
levitacus?
lessthanthree? (inactive afaik) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They merged with lucky to form less than lucky (<lucky) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wrong.
Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmmm, and where is this going to be happening? In the second hive? If a gorge is healing a hurt fade in the second hive, and my 4-5 shotgunners go in, the fade is going to run, the gorge is going to die, and the hive is going to go down.
Plus gorges can't heal a fade too quickly anyway. Surely not fast enough to be stopping a shotgun attack on a hive.
/end useless post <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm bumping this post because of good timing.
Does anyone still think that sensory chambers aren't overpowered?
After the NS finals match, going a record <b>7</b> tiebreaker rounds? And every time the alien team used sensory chambers.
To all the people who claimed I needed numbers, there you are.
Now can we have real discussion on the sensory chamber without all petty squabble of before? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither team went sensory first, and some rounds were very close. Also, all marine rounds were won on veil.
Definitely not HMGs because I only saw like 3 in all of the marine rounds :o
Because we didn't upgrade our armory for a longgggg time.
Wrong.
Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT YOU SAY?? TEAMWORK?!?!!
Made me smile.
Wrong.
Any decent clan will have a gorge(s) healing the fades. And really, focusfades on their own are a real threat. Now throw in cloaked focusskulks and a lerk and dinner is pretty much server the kharaa, and marines are on the menu.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT YOU SAY?? TEAMWORK?!?!!
Made me smile. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah. (especially) with good teamwork, sc is pretty much impossible to counter. no matter - this is important - no matter how hard the marines try, or how many "crazy" tactics they try.
Indeed.