ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
You've got to realize this isn't a pub bs clan problem though. What your thought expierment described is one team being very dependant on skill, and the other team being buff in ways even unskilled people can take use them well.
If one side takes a lot more skill to play well, than of course at lower levels of play, that side will lose more. Now, the solution to that is to simply try to make both sides equally difficult to play. It doesn';t mean make both sides the same, but make the learning curve about the same, and then you can have your balance at both high and low skill levels.
Hell, we don't even need ot look at a hypothetical lerk. Just look at the Fade. Newbies die with them instantly, while in an expert's hands they are completely godly. Same thing. But, I think that marines have many skills they need to master as well. Aiming is HARD to master, at least for me, and there are many movement skills you need to learn to dodge aliens as well. I think both sides are equally hard to learn right now, or maybe the aliens is just slightly harder.
Sigh someone should clone the #1 leet ns player and then have those clones play against each other. All the devs needed to do is tweak numbers till it is a 50-50 win/loss ratio.
Just too bad that we are not clones <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> There will be never 100% balance for ns atm, because it is just way too complex and all possible strategies/exploits/bugs that might influence the game flow itself have not been fully explored. Hell, maybe Grendel is right and the HG is the SC counter #1. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From my personall experience I can clearly state, that the SC/MC choice is map dependend. SC for tanith,hera,eclipse and MC for every other map. Why? Well quite simple. SCs are only good, when placed in the field. When beeing placed openly you are likely to loose them. Hence only maps that have enough sweet spots which allow to cover critical locations with SCs are a valid choice.
These sweet spots are mainly vents though some are a little bit more exotic (cave and processing on hera). And as comm i usually am more worried when fighting mc compared to sc. A nice reloc and a strategic 2 hive lockdown usually decides the game pretty early. Just make shure, that you do not lock the hive directly.
Example: ns_hear reloc maint means vent is locked. then push processing establish a mini base there and you have data core locked aswell. (i have done this exactly 6 times in 3.0 against SC and it worked 5 times)
And yes i am well aware of the fact, that relocs in scrims will usually cost you the game. Pubbing FTW.
I always love people who say that if the game is balanced competitively, that doesn't mean that it is balanced in pub play. Then they throw an example like Kwil's, where the lerk is something that takes alot of skill to use, and so the marines have been buffed up to fight against it. Then, when you get to pub play, the players can't play the lerk right, and thus it is unbalanced. So then the game is balanced competitively, but not in pub play.
But isn't that the exact same thing as bunny hopping?
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Mar 20 2005, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Mar 20 2005, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I always love people who say that if the game is balanced competitively, that doesn't mean that it is balanced in pub play. Then they throw an example like Kwil's, where the lerk is something that takes alot of skill to use, and so the marines have been buffed up to fight against it. Then, when you get to pub play, the players can't play the lerk right, and thus it is unbalanced. So then the game is balanced competitively, but not in pub play.
But isn't that the exact same thing as bunny hopping? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. And I maintain the exact same arguments in bunnyhopping discussions. Hell, aiming is the same.. the game is balanced with the idea that the marines can aim from a distance.
That doesn't change the point though, that being that the game can be balanced at the top and not balanced at the bottom. What changes is the degree of that imbalance. With aiming, that change in balance happens pretty evenly on both sides. With bunnyhopping, it's slightly more pronounced, but honestly, not terribly much as there is a wide skill-range within bunnyhopping, and bunnyhopping itself isn't a huge help in a fire-fight.
(Or in other words, the game is balanced with bunnyhopping in mind, but the advantage it gives isn't so extreme that marines are guarunteed to dominate those who can't.)
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
But I think in its current state, NS -should- be balanced for pub play if it is balanced for competitive play, because BOTH sides take a lot of skill to play.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 20 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 20 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But I think in its current state, NS -should- be balanced for pub play if it is balanced for competitive play, because BOTH sides take a lot of skill to play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortuneatly it doesn't work that nicely. There are easily calculatable factors that apply to clan play that simply do not apply to pub play. Many things are congruent, but many things are not.
If you hunt through pretty much any public servers logs you will find that less SC first games result in alien wins then any other chamber first. I cannot vouch for the congruentcy of that fact on compeditive games, but from the fact that nearly every clanner is complaining about the new SC at least to some degree, the exact opposite is true.
The only conclusion that can be drawn out is that pub play and clan play are not acctually balancing together. If you don't like it that the pubbers are telling you that the SC is not overpowered because they are losing SC first games more often then not, then do not try to flip it around on them and claim the opposite is true. You are both making judgements from your experiances.
Fortunately there are lots of development options that can be explored that can bridge the gap between clan and pub play. Really any ability that is difficult to use/orchistrate yet when done correctly will yield great results will be highly exploited in clan play, and make almost no bearing on the public play game what so ever. The easiest way to do this would be to increase the responsibilty of the commander position. Force him to really be 100% on top of his micro management at all times to yield the best results, and in the end we will see clan play situations buffing the marine teams in result, while pub play teams experiance little to no difference in thier games.
NS is getting close to clan/pub balance, and generally seems a step up from good old 2.0 with the nessity of greater marine res control and more offensive scanning by comms, increasing the maximum effectivness of the com, while at the same time not nessicarly requiring more competency then was needed in 2.0 games to simply function in the commanders role.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
What you fail to see is that pubbers are still using 3.0b5 tactics. Once they adapt (yes, I see the irony in this) to 3.0, and start realizing that the game needs to be played differently now, the tables will turn. On just about any public server I play on, I hardly ever see early chambers. Hence no free upgrades. Aliens can't take advantage of their biggest boost in 3.0, the one that unbalances it, which is also why I suspect a lot of pubbers don't see the imbalance.
I've pointed this out before, certain things may be balanced only once a certain skill level is achieved.
As a thought experiment, think about a game where a creature like the Lerk had three times the speed and did three times the damage or more with its bite, but had the weakness that if it hit a wall while flying it died.
Now imagine this game balanced in such a way that marines were expected to be dealing with highly skilled lerks of this variety. They have the armor, the firepower, the movement speed, etc, to be able to handle one of these things flying in, taking a chomp and taking off.
At high skill levels, the game is balanced, and those playing at those levels generally won't see a problem. At lower levels though? It's horribly unbalanced as the powerful marines blast through anything else that comes at them, and the unskilled lerks end up smearing themselves across the landscape.
This is an extreme example, I know, but I use it to point out that the idea "What's balanced for clans is balanced for pubs" is false. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, what you talk about isn't clan play, or pub play, it's just play old fun factor.
If the lerk was that hard to use, it'd be a case of a high <b>learning curve</b>. In NS, the learning curve is high for certain alien classes (skulk, fade, onos) and certain marine weapons (Shotgun, Jetpack) but really this doesn't mean it's bad for public OR clan play.
Fact is, if the game is too hard to play no one is gonna play it. You touch upon a much different subject, and that is the idea of not balance, but fun. It's not fun if a game is too difficult.
Also, you can have skilled pubbers. The biggest difference between clan play and public play in ANY game is teamwork; that is why all of my proposed changes focus on fun factor and the amount of teamwork invovled with each. Free upgrades for aliens on pubs, but not in clans, and movement chambers that work better in pubs for teleporting to a new hive as well.
Simple ideas that would work because of the inherant teamwork differences between pub play and clan play.
However, as far as skill goes...... has nothing to do with clan players, so your example is invalid.
You take nadagast, romano, mustang, or any other good player, remove them from their clan, and they still will be good at the game and be considered experts.
Swiftspear:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you hunt through pretty much any public servers logs you will find that less SC first games result in alien wins then any other chamber first. I cannot vouch for the congruentcy of that fact on compeditive games, but from the fact that nearly every clanner is complaining about the new SC at least to some degree, the exact opposite is true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense, but this just sounds like bollocks. To speak for ANY pubbers you need hardcore statistics, but for clan games it's easy to montor them and see where the wins go. Not to mention that so far 100% of the clanners that have posted in this topic agree, SCs are unbalanced; and while not 100% of the worldwide clanners post here if you take any course in statistics you would know that just this sample is overwhelming because there is virtually no disagreement.
Also, out of all the pubbers who have posted in this topic... most have agreed with the orginal thesis. So take that as you will, but from what <b>I</b> have seen on pubs SCs first work almost without fail for aliens because even though aliens have less teamwork, so do the marines.
Edit:
This too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What you fail to see is that pubbers are still using 3.0b5 tactics. Once they adapt (yes, I see the irony in this) to 3.0, and start realizing that the game needs to be played differently now, the tables will turn. On just about any public server I play on, I hardly ever see early chambers. Hence no free upgrades. Aliens can't take advantage of their biggest boost in 3.0, the one that unbalances it, which is also why I suspect a lot of pubbers don't see the imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I dunno Fanatic...in most of the pub games I play, (granted, the pub games I play are usually not filled with nubs, but aren't necessarily filled with clanners either), chambers are usually down between 0:30 and 1:30, depending on map/chamber choice. And I usually see alien wins, especially if sensory is dropped first. Granted, I usually am the one to go gorge with sensory and drop the chambers in the nice spots,but the fact is my team can generally take advantage of the chambers quite well.
And swiftspear. I guarantee you that if commanding is any harder, pubbers will be affected more than clanners. Clan comms will just practice more, while pubs will suffer from lack of comms have enough skills for the new rigors. I equate the comm with the Fade in many ways. both teams are heavily reliant on the respective unit, and each takes qutie a bit of skill to do well. If you increase the difficulty to play a Fade well, wouldn't pubbers also do worse as aliens because they just can't handle it? Clanners, already having lots of skill, will simply practice a bit more and adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Mar 20 2005, 02:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 20 2005, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Public play never discovers the really game breaking strategies, not to mention that public games in 99,9999% of circumstances consist of players without the skill required to properly exploit game dynamics. Balancing a game strictly based on competitive games will also balance it for public play, and that is what people need to realize. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. While I do agree that many public players may not take a game/mod <i>'to its limit'</i>, if you balance strictly for competitive play then you often <b>REQUIRE</b> public players to use those 'limit pushing tactics' in order to attain that same level of balance in public play.
This is painfully evident in public play when watching people play fade. While some people can handle them, many more cannot. I've lost count of the public games where people have said "I suck at fade" when the alien team says they need fades. This isn't about people who have poor skills, this is about a class that <b>requires</b> a high level of skill to use it in even a basic fashion. Yet in competitive play, you don't have that issue.
Putting the above example aside, it doesn't matter what the specifics are, if you balance to a level that the public can't attain, then you haven't balanced for public play at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 20 2005, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 20 2005, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno Fanatic...in most of the pub games I play, (granted, the pub games I play are usually not filled with nubs, but aren't necessarily filled with clanners either), chambers are usually down between 0:30 and 1:30, depending on map/chamber choice. And I usually see alien wins, especially if sensory is dropped first. Granted, I usually am the one to go gorge with sensory and drop the chambers in the nice spots,but the fact is my team can generally take advantage of the chambers quite well.
And swiftspear. I guarantee you that if commanding is any harder, pubbers will be affected more than clanners. Clan comms will just practice more, while pubs will suffer from lack of comms have enough skills for the new rigors. I equate the comm with the Fade in many ways. both teams are heavily reliant on the respective unit, and each takes qutie a bit of skill to do well. If you increase the difficulty to play a Fade well, wouldn't pubbers also do worse as aliens because they just can't handle it? Clanners, already having lots of skill, will simply practice a bit more and adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly, that is why it works. If comming is harder the clan comms keep up with what is required of them almost whatever is changed and will find ways to be even more efficiant with it then they are now. Pub coms will still be able to function, they will be able to follow basic build orders and place the right structures when they need to be placed, but they won't be able to use the chair to the full extent of its potential. Thus if clans feel that sensory chambers are overpowered and pubbers don't, give the comm the counter and make sure it requires a fair bit of micromanagement to exploit. The pubs will see almost no differance at all when SC first is used, because most pub comms won't bother with a counter that requires too much mirco management, but the clan games, with competent comms, the counters whatever they may be will be used excessively and effectively to the point where they acctually WORK as a counter to the overbalanced eqiupment of the other team.
The best ideas for doing this in my opinion are either to give some sort of largish general buff to the obs ping, or the other option would be to make hand grenades droppables so the comm can give his marines tools that allow them to exploit the reconaissance by fire properties of the currently fairly underused and underpowered weapon.
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Mar 20 2005, 02:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 20 2005, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Shadowcat+Mar 20 2005, 07:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shadowcat @ Mar 20 2005, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NGE is the root of NS's imbalance.. The chambers are just fine.
When I play marines, we sometimes win, we sometimes lose.. Depends on the commander really.
So NGE, maybe you should pick out good commanders and not some n00bs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Over to another subject, that doesn't involve unintended humour:
I've seen several people comment on balance in publics vs. balance in competitive gaming, which to me clearly tells me you haven't really thought about the subject. Yes, one can balance a game purely by looking at public gaming. This will however, invariably, be flawed balance, simply because public games never take the game to its limits. Public play never discovers the really game breaking strategies, not to mention that public games in 99,9999% of circumstances consist of players without the skill required to properly exploit game dynamics. Balancing a game strictly based on competitive games will also balance it for public play, and that is what people need to realize. There is however another factor involved here, which is the fun factor. A balanced game may not necessarily be fun to play on publics (although it in most cases will, unless it by default is a really boring game). This has nothing to do with balancing the game however, or game balance experiences.
Distinguish these when talking about balance, please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> quoted for truth, balance for competitive play and pub play will be balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 20 2005, 10:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 20 2005, 10:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->..or the other option would be to make hand grenades droppables so the comm can give his marines tools that allow them to exploit the reconaissance by fire properties of the currently fairly underused and underpowered weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> flares ftw
I just find this 1 thing wrong: level 3 HMG can kill a level 3 caraspace Onos in 90 bullets, not even a full clip. And so if 5 marines with level 3 HMGs each shot 18 bullets at it, it's dead. Just wrong. What the hell was done to the marines' damage in 3.0?
<!--QuoteBegin-TeckBlade+Mar 21 2005, 04:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeckBlade @ Mar 21 2005, 04:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just find this 1 thing wrong: level 3 HMG can kill a level 3 caraspace Onos in 90 bullets, not even a full clip. And so if 5 marines with level 3 HMGs each shot 18 bullets at it, it's dead. Just wrong. What the hell was done to the marines' damage in 3.0? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Post a new topic then, this has absolutly no relevence to either the 3.0f chamber analisis in general, nor the current discussion regarding possible counters for the sensory chamber we have going right now.
Your issue is absoutly an important one, but it really deserves it's own thread, as it has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kenichi+Mar 21 2005, 04:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kenichi @ Mar 21 2005, 04:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> dont forget the research time required. Its more than just res your investing -_- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i know but i couldnt be bothered to mention it, just like i couldnt be bothered to mention that an onos that tries to rush 5 marines by himself is pretty much always dead.
the major source of balance in pubs is the skill of the players. This game has a big learning curve. This makes individual player skill the factor that decides pub games. (ability to work with a team is an individual skill) You want it like this. You want a game where the better players win. Arguing a converse point is ridiculous.
Now when you enter the comp arena, you see 2 very highly individually skilled teams. When two teams at the top of the game play each other, thats when you feel game-balance. Thats when you see sc's as being as powerful as they are. In a pub, you only see it if the team has the individual skill to use it. In comp play, you see it because they do.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 21 2005, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 21 2005, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the major source of balance in pubs is the skill of the players. This game has a big learning curve. This makes individual player skill the factor that decides pub games. (ability to work with a team is an individual skill) You want it like this. You want a game where the better players win. Arguing a converse point is ridiculous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree.
And given a game where all players are all at a low skill level, the fact in betas was that aliens would tend to lose even if slightly more skilled -- largely because of the requirements placed on the fade player needing to be <i>quite</i> skilled to be of any use. Arguing that it's better that way is arguing the converse point.
This has now been changed because of the early boosts given to the skulk. These boosts have lessened the requirements on the fade in low skill games as there isn't such a deficit to make up from. In high skill games though, this equates to alien dominance.
Again though, I still fail to see any correlation between this and the SC as opposed to the MC or DC.
<!--QuoteBegin-TeckBlade+Mar 21 2005, 04:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeckBlade @ Mar 21 2005, 04:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just find this 1 thing wrong: level 3 HMG can kill a level 3 caraspace Onos in 90 bullets, not even a full clip. And so if 5 marines with level 3 HMGs each shot 18 bullets at it, it's dead. Just wrong. What the hell was done to the marines' damage in 3.0? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that's an entire marine team with highest level dmg output - that's the most damage the marines can possibly do
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 20 2005, 09:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 20 2005, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Mar 20 2005, 02:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 20 2005, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Public play never discovers the really game breaking strategies, not to mention that public games in 99,9999% of circumstances consist of players without the skill required to properly exploit game dynamics. Balancing a game strictly based on competitive games will also balance it for public play, and that is what people need to realize. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. While I do agree that many public players may not take a game/mod <i>'to its limit'</i>, if you balance strictly for competitive play then you often <b>REQUIRE</b> public players to use those 'limit pushing tactics' in order to attain that same level of balance in public play.
This is painfully evident in public play when watching people play fade. While some people can handle them, many more cannot. I've lost count of the public games where people have said "I suck at fade" when the alien team says they need fades. This isn't about people who have poor skills, this is about a class that <b>requires</b> a high level of skill to use it in even a basic fashion. Yet in competitive play, you don't have that issue.
Putting the above example aside, it doesn't matter what the specifics are, if you balance to a level that the public can't attain, then you haven't balanced for public play at all.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This isn't a public nor clanner issue, it's one of learning curves. Make the learning curve too high for any game and then you will naturally discourage the average person from playing it.
Clanners are not good players; good players happen to be those who join clans. Clanners main advantage is the use of teamwork through coordinated attacks.
Players aren't good testers of how its meant to be played. They are working to their interpretation of what the devs say. Interpretation is where the fun part is.... where one person sees spawncamping and structure blocking, another sees gamewinning tactics and a viable way of countering higher lifeforms.
Good players distance themselves from reality because as skill increases, the connection to the intent of the game decreases. Case in point, a world top ten NS player as an unupgraded skulk versus the population of nubby mcnubs server for pub nubs. My money is on the top ranking skulk. Does it mean skulk is overpowered? Numbers say yes, reality says no.
The vested interest of any competitive player is to ensure they don't lose their competitive edge. The biggest complains from ANY change are largely coming from people who stick like glue to one strat, then go nuts when that one strat is no longer viable. You may feel free to persue any mmorg, rpg, etc and read the forums.
Viruses outnumber humans. Ants and rats outnumber humans. Fake flamingoes outnumber real flamingoes. Pubbers outnumber clanners. You shouldn't be blowing the trumpet for majority rule any more than a person should toot the horn for minority rule. Both sides have to be considered and appeased.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really don't think people are going to make a huge blunder when it comes to judging the nature of a video game! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Battlecruiser?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If anything, if you boost the obs you are making the sensory chamber too hard to use for the aliens at hive 1 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. The obs can be boosted in such a way that several obs must be needed to really benefit, which keeps things in check. If anything, nerfing the SC makes it too hard for the aliens to use at hive 1 - decreasing cloak range means more need to be dropped to cover the same area, and changes to local SOF just mean you may as well wander back to an earlier beta.
Church
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades will no longer be the monsters that they are with sensory first, and the cloakus skulks and SOF lerks more than make up for that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am hoping that by positively changing the obs, marines should have enough res for a viable tech rush on armour. Consider A1 and A2 right off the bat instead of boosting weapons, plus a bit of medspam. This alters the usual build order, but also counters focus pretty well, and if the aliens haven't got second hive up then rines will have an easy time of winning the game.
I think the trick is to change in such a way that doing things right makes the game end faster. In this case, rushing obs and armour is viable enough to counter SC, presuming the comm is researching fast enough.
Fana -
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> simply because public games never take the game to its limits <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see a lot more stuff attempted in actual pub games than attempted in actual clan games. Granted thats because in clan matches you're only doing what works, but its only really in pubs that you see people actually trying to implement bizarre and flawed strats actually ingame.
At the same time, we're all aware that the game would be dire if balanced purely by pubbers. Likewise it'd be a dire game if balanced purely by the competitive community. How high does the bar go? If it was balanced only for bhop skulks, pancake lerks, and duckfades then the game would be largely unplayable for the vast majority of players, competitive ones included. That leads to the death of NS as competitive players move on for the next fix, and there are no upcoming new players to take their place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On just about any public server I play on, I hardly ever see early chambers <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a problem on most pub servers irrespective of the version of NS played. In competitive play you can have it planned beforehand, or at least narrowed down. In pub play, if you're polite you'll try to get a consensus, and failing that you'll just drop what you want and the other players can suffer.
Certainly on the pubs that I have played on, aliens have been using their upgrades even when they had to pay for them. 2 res for something that allows you to grease a few more marines has always had its appeal.
NGE
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You take nadagast, romano, mustang, or any other good player, remove them from their clan, and they still will be good at the game and be considered experts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. Rines rely on their commander, and alien players can be brought down by an alien player who drops an inappropriate chamber. Solo high skilled fades/lerks with no team backup (zero rts dropped, no second hive, nothing) suffer heavily compared to those on a team where they don't have to worry as much about the other guys.
At most they could hope to become a respected pubber. That still won't earn them any respect from the competitive community however. Further, if they kept any stats then their win/loss and K:D would be marred by bad games. And, to paraphrase an anonymous clan player, "I dont listen to a negative K:D fade". That whole issue is a side point for another time, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Less skilled players are slower to adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arguably because they are trying more things and thus taking more time to whittle them down. In a competitive environment you can be assured of a decent team and a decent enemy. Thus you only need to try something 3-4 times (including tweaks) in order to assess if it is working or failing. On a pub, you need to increase that by a factor of ten purely because team skill is unevenly distributed - sound strats still fail if the team implementing them are woeful.
Thats why change takes longer - its not a slow adaptation, its a slow learning process. Also consider the earlier point - something adapted by the competitive community, once released to the public community spreads like wildfire.
Swifty
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thus if clans feel that sensory chambers are overpowered and pubbers don't, give the comm the counter and make sure it requires a fair bit of micromanagement to exploit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome. A great solution for all.
Router -
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You want a game where the better players win <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take care with this. Yes, the best TEAM should win, but not necessarily the best player. As it stands, on the pubs a half decent fade can carry an entire team. SC gives enough fake skill for even dirtpoor aliens to scrape out a 40 minute game. Certainly skill is an issue, but it shouldn't be individual skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When two teams at the top of the game play each other, thats when you feel game-balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again I hesitate to promote that claim. Teams at the top of their game have naturally rejected certain tactics, and at a certain point their primary concern becomes how to counter the opponent. If the other guy never uses jps, then most teams will generally not spend time practicing how to counter fades. The best will, of course, practice all scenarios..... but generally its a case of less work the better.
The core truth of your statement however is this -
When two teams of equal skill play each other, thats when you feel game balance.
Two teams, BOTH at the top of their game, will help balance their level. I wholly agree. When one team outskills the other however, balance cannot be observed (other than best man wins). Again, if the game was balanced purely for the top 12 players in a 6v6 match, lots of things would be left out of the game (due to redundancy) and it would be proportionately unplayable the further away you move from that skill level.
NGE
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Clanners are not good players; good players happen to be those who join clans. Clanners main advantage is the use of teamwork through coordinated attacks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes; no; yes. In that order.
Various people -
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> balance for competitive play and pub play will be balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So horribly horribly untrue, and certainly a conceited opinion if not sheer naked arrogance. People have enough problems with fades as is, imagine if it was balanced only to work with the real high tier fades. The fade would cease to exist in the pub game, with people opting instead just to save for Onos and hope for safety in numbers.
Consider if the game was balanced purely so that the top 12 players in a 6v6 match would have a 50:50 W/L ratio. The vast bulk of players would find it unplayable. Most competitive players couldn't cope with it, pretty much all pubbers would be unable to play it, and the community would devolve to 12 players plus, say, 6 apprentices.
You cannot balance for competitive and hope pub will sort itself out. Just wont work. Likewise you cant balance for pub and hope competitive works itself out. True balance is the happy medium - which is incredibly tricky to do, especially if your players can't provide examples and numbers to support their balance suggestions.
True balance is achieved by a variety of equally skilled teams playing each other with 50:50 W/L. You then alter the play so that a higher tier team plays a lower tier team. As the skill difference increases, game length should shorten. If this does not make an S or bell curve (depending how you plot it) then you know where the problem lies.
Currently if you plotted such a graph, you would notice unreasonably long times for skilled rines to demolish a less skilled alien team with SC first (give or take a VERY short game time for games where marines shotty rushed SC gorges with cloaking, narf).
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Having hard-to-master classes doesn't mean you can't balance at all skill levels. Lik I said, all you have to do is make sure that BOTH sides suffer equally as skill level goes down (aliens NEED good fades. MArines NEED good commanders) and the game will be can be balanced at all levels. Now, it might not be as *fun*, but we're discussion balance right now.
It's funny how when we as a community start a balance discussion it is usually started by observations relating to one side of NS more than the other. We always seem to have a general consensus that aliens dominate every game or vice versa.
Perhaps this is why 2.0 was the way it was. The community always seems to lean more to one side of the table, be it marine or alien, and this leads to the next version of NS buffing up one side while only giving a slight nudge to the other. Remember the Jetpacks that let you hover for an almost indefinate period? Remember the kill-all-hmg? Remember the unstoppable Fades of olde? The end-game onos of doom? Bilebomb working on targets that you could not see (aka, gorge in a vent)? Turrets that didn't need a turret factory to keep firing? Electrification being cheap and having comms electrify all marine nodes/TFs? The list goes on.
I'm not saying i have some kind of miracle solution to this see-saw of balance that we have made, but it's just something to look out for. We know the NS team listens to it's community a lot more than most develloppers would, so don't think that rage dump you posted about shotguns or hit-and-run fades last night didn't do any harm.
I read the whole initial post; it was a very good breakdown of the chambers and abilities. I tired of reading pages and pages of following posts.
I have 2 thoughts on SOF and overpowered SC's. I apologize if these have already been proposed.
1. If the automatic SOF only showed marines that were within a range of an SC -- maybe the cloaking radius?
2. Switch silence and SOF. That is, make SOF a movement ability, and silence a sensory ability. I think this would force players to choose between the best upgrades from the same chamber, while increasing the players using SOF.
Additional to the second point, celerity and focus could be swapped, or silence and focus, or something like that. You could even adjust a defensive ability and swap it to another chamber. Celerity and redemption could make a logical switch, as redemption is almost identical in result (when it works) to using an MC, and proper use of celerity can yeild the same net effect of carapace.
Carapace itself could be changed to be a visual blur, call it blurring, where the alien "trails;" when it moves, its image stays where it was, and also where it is now, causing a blurring effect. Used properly (by strafing or something), this can create a very hard target to hit, and even some difficulty even just looking at the beast. (imagine a blurred blinking fade) This would be viable to switch to either the MC or SC tree.
In fact, cloaking and SOF could be removed as automatic SOF abilities, replacing them with some sort of distortion within the SOF field -- so marines who enter either have a drunk effect, "trails" as described above, or some other visual or audio, or even controls disruption.
I totally agree that redemption should be redone, but I think the original poster's idea is too confusing, especially for newbies. I had an idea which was when you died (and had the redemption upgrade), you died but received most of your resources back. So if you died as an onos, you'd get 65 or so resources back. Just an idea. I also like the idea of a cooldown for redeeming, but an alien with redemption might just sit at base for 2 minutes while its cooling down, which would be really annoying.
to be honest I don't think the best way for this thread to go is more idea's on what could be done, more just highlighting what isn't quite right. While I disagree entirely with the way NGE went about this, I do actually agree with him on a couple of issues, namely redemption needing working on and the disproportionate gift of using SC in the field ahead of DC and MC...I don't, however, necessarily agree that this makes it over powered...
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 21 2005, 09:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 21 2005, 09:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> True balance is achieved by a variety of equally skilled teams playing each other with 50:50 W/L. You then alter the play so that a higher tier team plays a lower tier team. As the skill difference increases, game length should shorten. If this does not make an S or bell curve (depending how you plot it) then you know where the problem lies.
Currently if you plotted such a graph, you would notice unreasonably long times for skilled rines to demolish a less skilled alien team with SC first (give or take a VERY short game time for games where marines shotty rushed SC gorges with cloaking, narf). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't that simply for a game like NS. You can only expect to see a bell curve in games where the teams are clones of eachother. For instance, aliens generally have a much harder time successfully turtling agianst a marine team in the endgame then marines do in the opposite situation, and there is really very few realistic changes that can be made that would effect that. Some data could be drawn from such a scenario. But honestly, the best the NS team could hope for is to create a game where there are several viable stratigies for each team (Read DMS MDS SDM and SMD all work) and teams at both the uppermost level and the lower most level both achive roughly 50% alien/rine W/L against teams in around the exact same skill level.
well the problem with that swiftspear, is that every clan i've ever heard of has a stronger side. Every clan when playing themselves would win one side most the time.
Just throwing a wrench in this hypothetical nonsense.
Comments
If one side takes a lot more skill to play well, than of course at lower levels of play, that side will lose more. Now, the solution to that is to simply try to make both sides equally difficult to play. It doesn';t mean make both sides the same, but make the learning curve about the same, and then you can have your balance at both high and low skill levels.
Hell, we don't even need ot look at a hypothetical lerk. Just look at the Fade. Newbies die with them instantly, while in an expert's hands they are completely godly. Same thing. But, I think that marines have many skills they need to master as well. Aiming is HARD to master, at least for me, and there are many movement skills you need to learn to dodge aliens as well. I think both sides are equally hard to learn right now, or maybe the aliens is just slightly harder.
Just too bad that we are not clones <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There will be never 100% balance for ns atm, because it is just way too complex and all possible strategies/exploits/bugs that might influence the game flow itself have not been fully explored.
Hell, maybe Grendel is right and the HG is the SC counter #1. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From my personall experience I can clearly state, that the SC/MC choice is map dependend. SC for tanith,hera,eclipse and MC for every other map.
Why?
Well quite simple. SCs are only good, when placed in the field. When beeing placed openly you are likely to loose them. Hence only maps that have enough sweet spots which allow to cover critical locations with SCs are a valid choice.
These sweet spots are mainly vents though some are a little bit more exotic (cave and processing on hera).
And as comm i usually am more worried when fighting mc compared to sc.
A nice reloc and a strategic 2 hive lockdown usually decides the game pretty early.
Just make shure, that you do not lock the hive directly.
Example:
ns_hear
reloc maint means vent is locked.
then push processing establish a mini base there and you have data core locked aswell. (i have done this exactly 6 times in 3.0 against SC and it worked 5 times)
And yes i am well aware of the fact, that relocs in scrims will usually cost you the game. Pubbing FTW.
But isn't that the exact same thing as bunny hopping?
But isn't that the exact same thing as bunny hopping? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. And I maintain the exact same arguments in bunnyhopping discussions. Hell, aiming is the same.. the game is balanced with the idea that the marines can aim from a distance.
That doesn't change the point though, that being that the game can be balanced at the top and not balanced at the bottom. What changes is the degree of that imbalance. With aiming, that change in balance happens pretty evenly on both sides. With bunnyhopping, it's slightly more pronounced, but honestly, not terribly much as there is a wide skill-range within bunnyhopping, and bunnyhopping itself isn't a huge help in a fire-fight.
(Or in other words, the game is balanced with bunnyhopping in mind, but the advantage it gives isn't so extreme that marines are guarunteed to dominate those who can't.)
Unfortuneatly it doesn't work that nicely. There are easily calculatable factors that apply to clan play that simply do not apply to pub play. Many things are congruent, but many things are not.
If you hunt through pretty much any public servers logs you will find that less SC first games result in alien wins then any other chamber first. I cannot vouch for the congruentcy of that fact on compeditive games, but from the fact that nearly every clanner is complaining about the new SC at least to some degree, the exact opposite is true.
The only conclusion that can be drawn out is that pub play and clan play are not acctually balancing together. If you don't like it that the pubbers are telling you that the SC is not overpowered because they are losing SC first games more often then not, then do not try to flip it around on them and claim the opposite is true. You are both making judgements from your experiances.
Fortunately there are lots of development options that can be explored that can bridge the gap between clan and pub play. Really any ability that is difficult to use/orchistrate yet when done correctly will yield great results will be highly exploited in clan play, and make almost no bearing on the public play game what so ever. The easiest way to do this would be to increase the responsibilty of the commander position. Force him to really be 100% on top of his micro management at all times to yield the best results, and in the end we will see clan play situations buffing the marine teams in result, while pub play teams experiance little to no difference in thier games.
NS is getting close to clan/pub balance, and generally seems a step up from good old 2.0 with the nessity of greater marine res control and more offensive scanning by comms, increasing the maximum effectivness of the com, while at the same time not nessicarly requiring more competency then was needed in 2.0 games to simply function in the commanders role.
I've pointed this out before, certain things may be balanced only once a certain skill level is achieved.
As a thought experiment, think about a game where a creature like the Lerk had three times the speed and did three times the damage or more with its bite, but had the weakness that if it hit a wall while flying it died.
Now imagine this game balanced in such a way that marines were expected to be dealing with highly skilled lerks of this variety. They have the armor, the firepower, the movement speed, etc, to be able to handle one of these things flying in, taking a chomp and taking off.
At high skill levels, the game is balanced, and those playing at those levels generally won't see a problem. At lower levels though? It's horribly unbalanced as the powerful marines blast through anything else that comes at them, and the unskilled lerks end up smearing themselves across the landscape.
This is an extreme example, I know, but I use it to point out that the idea "What's balanced for clans is balanced for pubs" is false.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, what you talk about isn't clan play, or pub play, it's just play old fun factor.
If the lerk was that hard to use, it'd be a case of a high <b>learning curve</b>. In NS, the learning curve is high for certain alien classes (skulk, fade, onos) and certain marine weapons (Shotgun, Jetpack) but really this doesn't mean it's bad for public OR clan play.
Fact is, if the game is too hard to play no one is gonna play it. You touch upon a much different subject, and that is the idea of not balance, but fun. It's not fun if a game is too difficult.
Also, you can have skilled pubbers. The biggest difference between clan play and public play in ANY game is teamwork; that is why all of my proposed changes focus on fun factor and the amount of teamwork invovled with each. Free upgrades for aliens on pubs, but not in clans, and movement chambers that work better in pubs for teleporting to a new hive as well.
Simple ideas that would work because of the inherant teamwork differences between pub play and clan play.
However, as far as skill goes...... has nothing to do with clan players, so your example is invalid.
You take nadagast, romano, mustang, or any other good player, remove them from their clan, and they still will be good at the game and be considered experts.
Swiftspear:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you hunt through pretty much any public servers logs you will find that less SC first games result in alien wins then any other chamber first. I cannot vouch for the congruentcy of that fact on compeditive games, but from the fact that nearly every clanner is complaining about the new SC at least to some degree, the exact opposite is true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense, but this just sounds like bollocks. To speak for ANY pubbers you need hardcore statistics, but for clan games it's easy to montor them and see where the wins go. Not to mention that so far 100% of the clanners that have posted in this topic agree, SCs are unbalanced; and while not 100% of the worldwide clanners post here if you take any course in statistics you would know that just this sample is overwhelming because there is virtually no disagreement.
Also, out of all the pubbers who have posted in this topic... most have agreed with the orginal thesis. So take that as you will, but from what <b>I</b> have seen on pubs SCs first work almost without fail for aliens because even though aliens have less teamwork, so do the marines.
Edit:
This too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What you fail to see is that pubbers are still using 3.0b5 tactics. Once they adapt (yes, I see the irony in this) to 3.0, and start realizing that the game needs to be played differently now, the tables will turn. On just about any public server I play on, I hardly ever see early chambers. Hence no free upgrades. Aliens can't take advantage of their biggest boost in 3.0, the one that unbalances it, which is also why I suspect a lot of pubbers don't see the imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Less skilled players are slower to adapt.
And swiftspear. I guarantee you that if commanding is any harder, pubbers will be affected more than clanners. Clan comms will just practice more, while pubs will suffer from lack of comms have enough skills for the new rigors. I equate the comm with the Fade in many ways. both teams are heavily reliant on the respective unit, and each takes qutie a bit of skill to do well. If you increase the difficulty to play a Fade well, wouldn't pubbers also do worse as aliens because they just can't handle it? Clanners, already having lots of skill, will simply practice a bit more and adapt.
This is painfully evident in public play when watching people play fade. While some people can handle them, many more cannot. I've lost count of the public games where people have said "I suck at fade" when the alien team says they need fades. This isn't about people who have poor skills, this is about a class that <b>requires</b> a high level of skill to use it in even a basic fashion. Yet in competitive play, you don't have that issue.
Putting the above example aside, it doesn't matter what the specifics are, if you balance to a level that the public can't attain, then you haven't balanced for public play at all.
Regards,
Savant
And swiftspear. I guarantee you that if commanding is any harder, pubbers will be affected more than clanners. Clan comms will just practice more, while pubs will suffer from lack of comms have enough skills for the new rigors. I equate the comm with the Fade in many ways. both teams are heavily reliant on the respective unit, and each takes qutie a bit of skill to do well. If you increase the difficulty to play a Fade well, wouldn't pubbers also do worse as aliens because they just can't handle it? Clanners, already having lots of skill, will simply practice a bit more and adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, that is why it works. If comming is harder the clan comms keep up with what is required of them almost whatever is changed and will find ways to be even more efficiant with it then they are now. Pub coms will still be able to function, they will be able to follow basic build orders and place the right structures when they need to be placed, but they won't be able to use the chair to the full extent of its potential. Thus if clans feel that sensory chambers are overpowered and pubbers don't, give the comm the counter and make sure it requires a fair bit of micromanagement to exploit. The pubs will see almost no differance at all when SC first is used, because most pub comms won't bother with a counter that requires too much mirco management, but the clan games, with competent comms, the counters whatever they may be will be used excessively and effectively to the point where they acctually WORK as a counter to the overbalanced eqiupment of the other team.
The best ideas for doing this in my opinion are either to give some sort of largish general buff to the obs ping, or the other option would be to make hand grenades droppables so the comm can give his marines tools that allow them to exploit the reconaissance by fire properties of the currently fairly underused and underpowered weapon.
When I play marines, we sometimes win, we sometimes lose.. Depends on the commander really.
So NGE, maybe you should pick out good commanders and not some n00bs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Over to another subject, that doesn't involve unintended humour:
I've seen several people comment on balance in publics vs. balance in competitive gaming, which to me clearly tells me you haven't really thought about the subject. Yes, one can balance a game purely by looking at public gaming. This will however, invariably, be flawed balance, simply because public games never take the game to its limits. Public play never discovers the really game breaking strategies, not to mention that public games in 99,9999% of circumstances consist of players without the skill required to properly exploit game dynamics. Balancing a game strictly based on competitive games will also balance it for public play, and that is what people need to realize. There is however another factor involved here, which is the fun factor. A balanced game may not necessarily be fun to play on publics (although it in most cases will, unless it by default is a really boring game). This has nothing to do with balancing the game however, or game balance experiences.
Distinguish these when talking about balance, please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoted for truth, balance for competitive play and pub play will be balanced.
flares ftw
Post a new topic then, this has absolutly no relevence to either the 3.0f chamber analisis in general, nor the current discussion regarding possible counters for the sensory chamber we have going right now.
Your issue is absoutly an important one, but it really deserves it's own thread, as it has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever.
[/derail]
carry on.
i know but i couldnt be bothered to mention it, just like i couldnt be bothered to mention that an onos that tries to rush 5 marines by himself is pretty much always dead.
Now when you enter the comp arena, you see 2 very highly individually skilled teams. When two teams at the top of the game play each other, thats when you feel game-balance. Thats when you see sc's as being as powerful as they are. In a pub, you only see it if the team has the individual skill to use it. In comp play, you see it because they do.
I totally agree.
And given a game where all players are all at a low skill level, the fact in betas was that aliens would tend to lose even if slightly more skilled -- largely because of the requirements placed on the fade player needing to be <i>quite</i> skilled to be of any use. Arguing that it's better that way is arguing the converse point.
This has now been changed because of the early boosts given to the skulk. These boosts have lessened the requirements on the fade in low skill games as there isn't such a deficit to make up from. In high skill games though, this equates to alien dominance.
Again though, I still fail to see any correlation between this and the SC as opposed to the MC or DC.
that's an entire marine team with highest level dmg output - that's the most damage the marines can possibly do
This is painfully evident in public play when watching people play fade. While some people can handle them, many more cannot. I've lost count of the public games where people have said "I suck at fade" when the alien team says they need fades. This isn't about people who have poor skills, this is about a class that <b>requires</b> a high level of skill to use it in even a basic fashion. Yet in competitive play, you don't have that issue.
Putting the above example aside, it doesn't matter what the specifics are, if you balance to a level that the public can't attain, then you haven't balanced for public play at all.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a public nor clanner issue, it's one of learning curves. Make the learning curve too high for any game and then you will naturally discourage the average person from playing it.
Clanners are not good players; good players happen to be those who join clans. Clanners main advantage is the use of teamwork through coordinated attacks.
Players aren't good testers of how its meant to be played. They are working to their interpretation of what the devs say. Interpretation is where the fun part is.... where one person sees spawncamping and structure blocking, another sees gamewinning tactics and a viable way of countering higher lifeforms.
Good players distance themselves from reality because as skill increases, the connection to the intent of the game decreases. Case in point, a world top ten NS player as an unupgraded skulk versus the population of nubby mcnubs server for pub nubs. My money is on the top ranking skulk. Does it mean skulk is overpowered? Numbers say yes, reality says no.
The vested interest of any competitive player is to ensure they don't lose their competitive edge. The biggest complains from ANY change are largely coming from people who stick like glue to one strat, then go nuts when that one strat is no longer viable. You may feel free to persue any mmorg, rpg, etc and read the forums.
Viruses outnumber humans. Ants and rats outnumber humans. Fake flamingoes outnumber real flamingoes. Pubbers outnumber clanners. You shouldn't be blowing the trumpet for majority rule any more than a person should toot the horn for minority rule. Both sides have to be considered and appeased.
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I really don't think people are going to make a huge blunder when it comes to judging the nature of a video game!
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Battlecruiser?
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If anything, if you boost the obs you are making the sensory chamber too hard to use for the aliens at hive 1
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Not really. The obs can be boosted in such a way that several obs must be needed to really benefit, which keeps things in check. If anything, nerfing the SC makes it too hard for the aliens to use at hive 1 - decreasing cloak range means more need to be dropped to cover the same area, and changes to local SOF just mean you may as well wander back to an earlier beta.
Church
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Fades will no longer be the monsters that they are with sensory first, and the cloakus skulks and SOF lerks more than make up for that.
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I am hoping that by positively changing the obs, marines should have enough res for a viable tech rush on armour. Consider A1 and A2 right off the bat instead of boosting weapons, plus a bit of medspam. This alters the usual build order, but also counters focus pretty well, and if the aliens haven't got second hive up then rines will have an easy time of winning the game.
I think the trick is to change in such a way that doing things right makes the game end faster. In this case, rushing obs and armour is viable enough to counter SC, presuming the comm is researching fast enough.
Fana -
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simply because public games never take the game to its limits
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I see a lot more stuff attempted in actual pub games than attempted in actual clan games. Granted thats because in clan matches you're only doing what works, but its only really in pubs that you see people actually trying to implement bizarre and flawed strats actually ingame.
At the same time, we're all aware that the game would be dire if balanced purely by pubbers. Likewise it'd be a dire game if balanced purely by the competitive community. How high does the bar go? If it was balanced only for bhop skulks, pancake lerks, and duckfades then the game would be largely unplayable for the vast majority of players, competitive ones included. That leads to the death of NS as competitive players move on for the next fix, and there are no upcoming new players to take their place.
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On just about any public server I play on, I hardly ever see early chambers
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Thats a problem on most pub servers irrespective of the version of NS played. In competitive play you can have it planned beforehand, or at least narrowed down. In pub play, if you're polite you'll try to get a consensus, and failing that you'll just drop what you want and the other players can suffer.
Certainly on the pubs that I have played on, aliens have been using their upgrades even when they had to pay for them. 2 res for something that allows you to grease a few more marines has always had its appeal.
NGE
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You take nadagast, romano, mustang, or any other good player, remove them from their clan, and they still will be good at the game and be considered experts.
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Not necessarily. Rines rely on their commander, and alien players can be brought down by an alien player who drops an inappropriate chamber. Solo high skilled fades/lerks with no team backup (zero rts dropped, no second hive, nothing) suffer heavily compared to those on a team where they don't have to worry as much about the other guys.
At most they could hope to become a respected pubber. That still won't earn them any respect from the competitive community however. Further, if they kept any stats then their win/loss and K:D would be marred by bad games. And, to paraphrase an anonymous clan player, "I dont listen to a negative K:D fade". That whole issue is a side point for another time, however.
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Less skilled players are slower to adapt.
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Arguably because they are trying more things and thus taking more time to whittle them down. In a competitive environment you can be assured of a decent team and a decent enemy. Thus you only need to try something 3-4 times (including tweaks) in order to assess if it is working or failing. On a pub, you need to increase that by a factor of ten purely because team skill is unevenly distributed - sound strats still fail if the team implementing them are woeful.
Thats why change takes longer - its not a slow adaptation, its a slow learning process. Also consider the earlier point - something adapted by the competitive community, once released to the public community spreads like wildfire.
Swifty
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Thus if clans feel that sensory chambers are overpowered and pubbers don't, give the comm the counter and make sure it requires a fair bit of micromanagement to exploit.
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Awesome. A great solution for all.
Router -
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You want a game where the better players win
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Take care with this. Yes, the best TEAM should win, but not necessarily the best player. As it stands, on the pubs a half decent fade can carry an entire team. SC gives enough fake skill for even dirtpoor aliens to scrape out a 40 minute game. Certainly skill is an issue, but it shouldn't be individual skill.
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When two teams at the top of the game play each other, thats when you feel game-balance.
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Again I hesitate to promote that claim. Teams at the top of their game have naturally rejected certain tactics, and at a certain point their primary concern becomes how to counter the opponent. If the other guy never uses jps, then most teams will generally not spend time practicing how to counter fades. The best will, of course, practice all scenarios..... but generally its a case of less work the better.
The core truth of your statement however is this -
When two teams of equal skill play each other, thats when you feel game balance.
Two teams, BOTH at the top of their game, will help balance their level. I wholly agree. When one team outskills the other however, balance cannot be observed (other than best man wins). Again, if the game was balanced purely for the top 12 players in a 6v6 match, lots of things would be left out of the game (due to redundancy) and it would be proportionately unplayable the further away you move from that skill level.
NGE
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Clanners are not good players; good players happen to be those who join clans. Clanners main advantage is the use of teamwork through coordinated attacks.
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Yes; no; yes. In that order.
Various people -
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balance for competitive play and pub play will be balanced.
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So horribly horribly untrue, and certainly a conceited opinion if not sheer naked arrogance. People have enough problems with fades as is, imagine if it was balanced only to work with the real high tier fades. The fade would cease to exist in the pub game, with people opting instead just to save for Onos and hope for safety in numbers.
Consider if the game was balanced purely so that the top 12 players in a 6v6 match would have a 50:50 W/L ratio. The vast bulk of players would find it unplayable. Most competitive players couldn't cope with it, pretty much all pubbers would be unable to play it, and the community would devolve to 12 players plus, say, 6 apprentices.
You cannot balance for competitive and hope pub will sort itself out. Just wont work. Likewise you cant balance for pub and hope competitive works itself out. True balance is the happy medium - which is incredibly tricky to do, especially if your players can't provide examples and numbers to support their balance suggestions.
True balance is achieved by a variety of equally skilled teams playing each other with 50:50 W/L. You then alter the play so that a higher tier team plays a lower tier team. As the skill difference increases, game length should shorten. If this does not make an S or bell curve (depending how you plot it) then you know where the problem lies.
Currently if you plotted such a graph, you would notice unreasonably long times for skilled rines to demolish a less skilled alien team with SC first (give or take a VERY short game time for games where marines shotty rushed SC gorges with cloaking, narf).
It's funny how when we as a community start a balance discussion it is usually started by observations relating to one side of NS more than the other. We always seem to have a general consensus that aliens dominate every game or vice versa.
Perhaps this is why 2.0 was the way it was. The community always seems to lean more to one side of the table, be it marine or alien, and this leads to the next version of NS buffing up one side while only giving a slight nudge to the other. Remember the Jetpacks that let you hover for an almost indefinate period? Remember the kill-all-hmg? Remember the unstoppable Fades of olde? The end-game onos of doom? Bilebomb working on targets that you could not see (aka, gorge in a vent)? Turrets that didn't need a turret factory to keep firing? Electrification being cheap and having comms electrify all marine nodes/TFs? The list goes on.
I'm not saying i have some kind of miracle solution to this see-saw of balance that we have made, but it's just something to look out for. We know the NS team listens to it's community a lot more than most develloppers would, so don't think that rage dump you posted about shotguns or hit-and-run fades last night didn't do any harm.
my $0.02
I read the whole initial post; it was a very good breakdown of the chambers and abilities. I tired of reading pages and pages of following posts.
I have 2 thoughts on SOF and overpowered SC's. I apologize if these have already been proposed.
1. If the automatic SOF only showed marines that were within a range of an SC -- maybe the cloaking radius?
2. Switch silence and SOF. That is, make SOF a movement ability, and silence a sensory ability. I think this would force players to choose between the best upgrades from the same chamber, while increasing the players using SOF.
Additional to the second point, celerity and focus could be swapped, or silence and focus, or something like that. You could even adjust a defensive ability and swap it to another chamber. Celerity and redemption could make a logical switch, as redemption is almost identical in result (when it works) to using an MC, and proper use of celerity can yeild the same net effect of carapace.
Carapace itself could be changed to be a visual blur, call it blurring, where the alien "trails;" when it moves, its image stays where it was, and also where it is now, causing a blurring effect. Used properly (by strafing or something), this can create a very hard target to hit, and even some difficulty even just looking at the beast. (imagine a blurred blinking fade) This would be viable to switch to either the MC or SC tree.
In fact, cloaking and SOF could be removed as automatic SOF abilities, replacing them with some sort of distortion within the SOF field -- so marines who enter either have a drunk effect, "trails" as described above, or some other visual or audio, or even controls disruption.
These are just thoughts. Comment as you will.
Currently if you plotted such a graph, you would notice unreasonably long times for skilled rines to demolish a less skilled alien team with SC first (give or take a VERY short game time for games where marines shotty rushed SC gorges with cloaking, narf). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't that simply for a game like NS. You can only expect to see a bell curve in games where the teams are clones of eachother. For instance, aliens generally have a much harder time successfully turtling agianst a marine team in the endgame then marines do in the opposite situation, and there is really very few realistic changes that can be made that would effect that. Some data could be drawn from such a scenario. But honestly, the best the NS team could hope for is to create a game where there are several viable stratigies for each team (Read DMS MDS SDM and SMD all work) and teams at both the uppermost level and the lower most level both achive roughly 50% alien/rine W/L against teams in around the exact same skill level.
Just throwing a wrench in this hypothetical nonsense.