NGE, allbeit a long one, that was a very good read. Im not too sure I agree with all your suggestions, but I do agree with most of your points. Ty for taking the time and putting all of that together.
If indeed the problem is more obvious in clan matches, would that not indicate some flaw in how clan comms conduct their play?
On our lowly pub, aliens do parasite, do use teamwork, do assign "roles" (hive, chambers, first fade, first lerk). We have ff on, so naturally we're very fond of MC first as it allows an instant rush to any other hive. Exceptionally worthwhile when you consider hive lockdowns are the strat of choice on the pub circuit.
When we have went SC first, it was in combination with sheer alien aggression. However, I've seen it fail because the marines have diverted alien attention, or they've went for MT/scan/W1 and quite simply steamroll their way to any EMPTY hive.
Once in said hive they can of course construct a minibase which can cover the local node and anything within walking distance. Once the obs is up, no alien can get in unmolested. Turrets discourage everything, and fades are generally received by shotgun wielding marines.
The flaw with SC first is that once you get past the chamber, you can rip holes in the entire alien team. Scan lights them up like little christmas trees, and since they have no DC upgrade you can expect to comfortably rip through them if you're cautious. Medspam also helps.
If you go SC/DC then that still leaves you with only sheer aggression as your way to take out the marines, and if marines have been on the ball with their pressure, second hive is going to take a while and will certainly be a struggle till it arrives.
SC/MC means its hard to catch the aliens flatfooted, but again Scan plus upgrades means 1-2 hit kills are increasingly rare.
Certainly with better players its EASY to spot when SC has been dropped first. And the counter isnt much of a deviation from standard marine play. SC relies on surprise value, and once you have an obs network you can spot where the rush is coming from and swiftly crush it.
I don't know how it factors into true competitive play, but I see your words about clan play being about finding an edge an honing it.... thats all well and good, but sometimes you're just grinding metal. In games with competent players I've seen medspam and scan easily negate the ambush advantage, and marines can steamroll into a location with comparative ease.
As an example, I point to the siege strat of your average pub. For a while the siege rush simply wasnt working. Why? Gorges on top of the hive, immune to siege, constantly healspraying while fades/skulks chipped down the siege spot. The counter was not long in coming - now you see marines rushing into the hive to take out stragglers. Siege has become the softener before the big push.
I would put it to you that people are simply using the same old plays (because they've always worked) and aren't prepared to radically alter their play in order to combat new changes. I'm probably wrong, but its certainly something to consider if play is stagnated and the problem lies with only one group.
EDIT
Consider, cloaking helps you hide, sof lets you see them coming, focus helps you kill them. Sof is countered by not doing ninja pg rushes. If every marine on the map is training towards you, sof isn't really helping other than to tell you it a biiiig rush. Cloaking is negated by scan, so you have to rely on getting in first. If they have armor ups then medspam can counter this is marines are decent shots. If they have weapon ups, marines can bait or crawl in with all guns blazing. Battering ram tactics. If people are assumed to be gorging, dropping another hive, or evolving, then that leaves few players to guard the SC zone. Second, once you're THROUGH the SC zone its a bit late for aliens to drop more SC to counter. They have to fall back to another SC zone.
Its pretty hard to cover the map in SC before marines find out you have SC. Marines can either steamroll the main hive, or hit either free hives (before they fall under the sc network) and dominate any local nodes. The SC net will take a bit to reach them, and even then its negated by scan AND the SC net is placed on YOUR terms. Most SC zones work because they're good hideyholes as is, so skulks are always at the advantage. If you force them to SC up areas that favour rines, then a quick scan moves things to your side.
As I say, could be all wrong, but its a definite counterpoint to the ability of sensory. Its great until its circumvented, at which point its just a way of letting you know your hive is about to die to 5 sg rines.
Necrosis, in your pub, how many players does each team have? Also, Im assuming FF is on? I would just like to point out that an 8vs8 game is alot different then a 6v6.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Mar 16 2005, 10:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Mar 16 2005, 10:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To paraphrase, <b>analysis is the seperation of a whole into its seperate parts</b>, by definition (All alternate meanings are just re-interpretations of this, like "Explaining a larger mystery by breaking it down into several smaller ones").
The aspiring critics in this thread could next time at least bother to be informed beforehand, instead of yelling "it sounds scientific, but theres no charts!". It doesn't need no flipping charts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How foolish of me.
Well yeah, it's an analysis... but I could analyse how I feel about poo. I mean, the question isnt whether he is analysing something or not, it's rather what he is analysing.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 16 2005, 05:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 16 2005, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about this instead: The SCs can cloak themselves, but nothing else. No area cloaking. SoF remains as it is now. Would at least alleviate the problems we're seeing with marine rapage right now.
Or, you could make some serious changes to the observatory. Make it start with 50 energy, and only cost 10 res to build, for example. That might give the marines an actual affordable and effective counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So SCs only give SoF bonuses, so there won't be cloakus skulks around every corner. Not a bad idea, because this makes the Sensory zones less devestating.
I still think that having the chambers' passive ability differ depending upon the aliens upgrade is a better solution as it makes the sensory chamber more unique. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking along the same lines, just rather then removing the cloak compleatly decreasing the range of it to a radius of 100 units from the chamber. That way sensory chambers could still be used effectivley but if people were acctually making use of its cloaking range the chamber would be extreamly vulnerable to being found, and if you dumped a clip of GL ammo into a cloaked WOL the sensory would be taken out with it.
Force the players to choose weather they are going to use sensories as recon or if they are going to risk giving the chamber away to use it as a combat aide.
I still think that silence and focus should switch chambers though, and SC chambers should still screw over motion tracking within thier range, making obs the hard counter to SC via pings and MT to counter all SC abilities.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Necrosis. Are you saying that your marine team went without armor1 against sensory first aliens, and managed to steamroll everywhere? Something is missing there...alien skill I'm thinking. Either that or it was really back luck for the aliens. Thinking about it. Level 3 focus comes onto the field at 1:00 intot he game at the latest. Cloaking comes in before that. MT finishes researching at what...2:30, 3:00? Of course, if you built only one obs, you couldn't scan while MT was researching. So basically, MT comes in only after most of the damage potentially done by skulks with sensory upgrades are done. By the time MT comes into play, it'll only be effective for about a minute before Fades start rolling over your marines with focus.
So basically your marines managed to dominate possibly without scans for the first 3 minutes of the game without armor1 against cloakus skulks? Wow. Like I said, something is missing here.
I have to agree with Gren. Starting out by defining the word analysis for us all is not a good way to start a thread where you are trying to convince people. We all like to think our appraisal of the game is worthwhile: don't condescend to people and deny their points just because you hold yourself to be doing "analysis" as if others aren't measuring up to that standard. We all have ideas, we all have reasons for thoes ideas we've thought out, we all analyze.
My opinions, based on my own a-nal-y-sis, is that 3.0 still needs another week or so at least to really know how it shakes out. Things are already changing as comms learn how to adjust and aliens learn how to use the new ability features correctly. I still don't see the sort of general stability of things that we came to see with b5 eventually. And sorry, simply quoting the section of your post where you dismiss this point means nothing. We don't agree. Present new reasons if you want to convince me.
As for redemption, I agree on the chance issue, but I don't know about the timer. My druthers would be to have the first redeem be free, and then the rest a decreasing probability each time you successfully redeem. The upgrade should have some SURE worth, I agree, but then be increasingly unreliable. The timer idea just makes things too complex (again, you say not, I know, but I don't agree with you) for worry about, and would lead to a lot of waiting around.
As for SCs, I like them the way they are, mostly because they are great fun. It is marines that need some buffs to deal with them: easier path to elec and less convoluted scan abilities (point and click scans). People have to realize that if aliens take sensory, they are automatically put on the defensive. Lockdown, elec move slowly in large groups. It's a matter of time. Fades when they appear will go down easily. The main problem for marines with sens is simply that the counters are so expensive compared to other chambers. But that's in part a marine issue as much as it is an alien issue.
All three upgrades at once? Yes, sure: but only in one place. Simply saying it doesn't prove it's overpowered. Scan removes the most dangerous problem, SoF is not particularly useful once combat has already begun (or there's been a scan, which is alert enough), and focus is... focus. You get armor1, you travel in groups with high rates of fire, its sorted. And the price aliens pay is considerable: their first fades will be fragile, they can't easily defend the building second hive if its attacked, they can't be as offensive as they need to take down outposts, etc. You can't call something unbalanced without looking at the whole game. Single engagements in a killbox area isn't the whole game.
Lose the attitude. People will be much more willing to listen.
i believe the idea is that sensory locks the chokepoints; that good skulks ambush; that being cloaked @ the ideal ambush spot while knowing that they are coming and being able to 1 hit them is the problem
spore + focus ftw in stripping down outposts; skulks and lerks are not the ideal solution for elec turrets anyway, and such are not so scary for fade. i don't know if it is significantly weaker; with focus the fade does not have to expose themself as long
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If indeed the problem is more obvious in clan matches, would that not indicate some flaw in how clan comms conduct their play?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How, exactly, do you want the clan comms to play against sc's on, pick a map, Tanith? You get forced to take armor1 first in regards to focus. You need double and preferably west access straight away. As you might know, the main choke points on Tanith are Cargo and Chemical Transport.
A more common strat thus dictates you send two marines to cap double, one to west access/waste before they meet up for a cargo push. Note, by the time marines are ready to step to their doom, the sc's are already up. An alternative. You have the west access guy cap double, while two or, god forbid, three marines run like the dickens for cargo straight away. That's hoping the aliens don't have Fusion, because if they do, your plan was screwed before it got executed.
If the aliens get Waste, the first contacts will be made in central access tunnels, which will either slow the marines down, or result in losses (This is all assuming equal skill between both teams). If they get slowed down, your fate is sealed because the aliens got their sensory up. If they don't, whether or not they lose a marine, it is STILL a window of mere seconds, and there WILL be aliens in Cargo. Scenario will be: 2-3 skulks wait in Cargo entrance, not really in a hurry since their gorge is still holding E. Marines might try luring them out. Might work, but they still won't get anywhere. Assuming the aliens know how the game works, they won't fall for it, and continue camping. The only chance the marines have is to have one guy go for the bhop-over-the-crate trick, with the other(s) covering. This fight could go either way, but that's assuming the marines even get there, that fast.
If the aliens get Satcom, it will be a lot like the Waste scenario, without the advantage of early encounters before Cargo, which is why the marines are in favour with this starting hive. However, if all else fails, a sensory in chemical that covers large parts of acidic, works just fine, which still leaves the aliens with 3 rt's.
All the above is under the restriction of having one node-capper (two if you insist on having a single basebuilder, and having another marine cap west access) and a time window that is so small, it's ridiculously unfair. Btw, killing single cappers is not the hardest thing ever with sensory. Having a capper pair? As much as some people hate ramboing, marines NEED that ability to hold their own against a single skulk. Seeing the amount of effort you need to breach a sensory chokepoint as it is, the last thing you want is having two cappers holding hands.
<i>So, why don't we have one base builder, 2-3 going for chem straight away, and 1-2 building double?</i>
With 3.0F, a more balanced strat such as this may be the best option. However, this leaves virtually no room for a cargo push. The guys in double will spend a good minute or so building, the sensory will be up, and the area is locked, granting at least Fusion and Cargo res nodes under alien control. So, your only hope lies with the pair of guys in Chemical, and they better be called Mustang and his EU counterpart Wzza. But since cloaking takes away the basic skill that determines how good a marine is, and depends more on eating a lot of carrots for eyesight, big names won't help you here. Let's take it apart again, hive by hive.
Waste: Aliens will probably plant an sc within acidic, at the chemical transport wall. They may choose to build it in the vent, it won't be used a lot anyway. Now, if by some chance, the marines DO break through acidic, what are they exactly there for? They'll "breach" from deathtrap #1, to deathtrap #2, being cargo. With the aliens having 4 rt's under their control and locked, game over.
Fusion: Aliens can and will have the majority of their skulks in chemical, and since the sensory will go under the vent, they will not have to worry about marines getting there too early. They can wait. In acidic, at the vent entrance, behind the box... It doesnt matter, the sensory will go up, and the marines will get destroyed, unless they flee into satcom, which leaves the same scenario as waste, being that the marines can't do anything but cap satcom rt for the hell of it, before walking back to their doom at Chemical. Please don't go saying "but they could boost into the vent and get a sneaky pg up!", it wont happen. Aliens will know how many marines were in satcom, they won't believe someone suddenly vaporized, they will check the vent.
Satcom: Seemingly the only hive that marines have a chance of getting into cargo with, the 2-2 split strat screws itself over here, because the chem marines, again, will either run into (and die in) Chem, Cargo, or Satcom.
Any strat other than the ones i mentioned are not even remotely viable. Tanith marine game relies on capping and holding double, west access, and waste (waste starting hive excluded of course, this will move wa/waste to chem/sat), before moving on a building hive. You need at least two marines to go to that area to hold it, otherwise you'll be defending rt's before you even put them up.
So, a recap: Tanith sc games rely on a good starting hive (satcom is your best bet, waste is not bad at all in the mentioned scenario's), coupled with a small time window of rushing some marines through cargo. As suggested earlier, rushing chem is not an option, in that you serve Cargo to the aliens on a plate, and in most cases having to go through two sc zones. If you don't breach cargo early on, it's game over. If you do breach cargo early on, you still have to make an effort to boost for the sensory on top, before going for the res towers, which all takes time, and leaves you open for smart skulks. Your tech choice of path is armor1, no explanation needed. There is no freedom of choice, whether it be how you deploy your marines at the start of the game, or which tech you get first.
You can, if you wish to waste your time, rip this post apart, piece by piece, and say: "Your story is filled with 'what if', 'supposedly', and 'assuming', but the above is how most of the current sensory games on tanith will go as it is.
I've commed Tanith a thousand times, public and competitive, I can dream what will happen 90%, and I typed it all out for you.
So, I ask again..
How, exactly, do you want the clan comms to play against sc's?
(This post was made to show that there is no point in 'waiting another week and see how it goes', or 'trying different things'. There is nothing else to be tried).
Interesting, but you never do explain what the big difference between sensory chambers in the betas and final version is. Do you mean to say that the addition of spotting marines in the chamber radius is such a great advantage that it has somehow made the sensory chamber range an impassable killing field where it wasn't before?
This is the thing I keep running up against when I see people who tremble at the awesome power of the sensory chamber in 3.0 final.. it's power hasn't changed that much from 3.0 beta. If it makes an impassable killing field now, I fail to see how it was less impassable in the betas. And if the clans are so quick to adapt, then why wasn't the uberpower of the Sensory Killing Field seriously complained about before? I suggest it's because it does not have any such uberpower.
The problem is not the chambers. The problem, if there is one, is the free and, more importantly, fast upgrades. The alien early game has been greatly enhanced without a corresponding change in balance to the middle game. During the betas, the aliens had to suffer through a distressingly poor early game strength. If they survived this by being quick enough to capitalize on any opportunities the marines left, they could then move on to their middle game and the fade which had enough power to stage a comeback for the aliens. (Or lose it completely.. depending on the skill of the fade player)
That midgame hasn't changed. The aliens still rock with their midgame, except now they aren't starting from the disadvantage that their early game gave them. This becomes more obvious when you look at the strats clans are employing, which, from what I hear, are still moving toward a more MC first strategy. Again, if the clans are so quick to adapt, then wouldn't MC be being dropped like a hot-potato for the glory that is the SC if it's what you say?
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 16 2005, 06:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 16 2005, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention the whole HAMBONE thing being a myth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel, first off, thanks for reading my article, I forgot to do so in my other post.
You are lucky Forlorn is home from spring break, he's banned from these forums but can still read it, he gave me a portion of a log,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 18:53:17 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i mean ive never really told anyone [ 18:53:22 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] just my personal history [ 18:53:32 ] [ Forlorn ] ? [ 18:53:45 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i convinecd flayra 3-4 days before 2.0 to fix it [ 18:53:56 ] [ Forlorn ] which was..? [ 18:53:58 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and just from 3 days of playing it everyone unanimously agreed it was better than the original game [ 18:54:10 ] [ Forlorn ] what did you do? [ 18:54:11 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] anyways [ 18:54:14 ] [ Forlorn ] make res flow faster? [ 18:54:29 ] [ Forlorn ] removing the activation timing? [ 18:54:30 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] it was something like 20 changes [ 18:54:34 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i dont remember [ 18:54:37 ] [ Forlorn ] ah yes [ 18:54:40 ] [ Forlorn ] yep [ 18:54:49 ] [ Forlorn ] i was just watching some 1.04 demo's [ 18:54:49 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] youre sounding antagonistic im not trying to brag or anything [ 18:54:57 ] [ Forlorn ] the one's on your site [ 18:55:01 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] if i was trying to brag this would be common knowledge which it isnt [ 18:55:07 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] so anyways [ 18:55:20 ] [ Forlorn ] No [ 18:55:22 ] [ Forlorn ] I'm not like that [ 18:55:27 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] from 2.0 -> 2.01 i made most of the balance changes [ 18:55:38 ] [ Forlorn ] That's cool [ 18:55:43 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and then the same with 3.0 [ 18:55:47 ] [ Forlorn ] wow [ 18:55:50 ] [ Forlorn ] 3.0 too? [ 18:55:50 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] but in 3.0 i only cared about combat [ 18:55:51 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] so [ 18:55:58 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i didnt pay any attention to NS [ 18:56:01 ] [ Forlorn ] ah [ 18:56:02 ] [ Forlorn ] yeah [ 18:56:04 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] anyways look the point is this [ 18:56:06 ] [ Forlorn ] we all fell into that phase [ 18:56:17 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] im not that proud of my job on 3.0 [ 18:56:23 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i mean combat was very balanced but it sucked [ 18:56:26 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] towards the end [ 18:56:30 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and i tried to get him to overhaul it [ 18:56:31 ] [ Forlorn ] combat isn't balanced at all anymore [ 18:56:36 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i know [ 18:56:38 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] but who cares<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may think it is fabricated, but I assure you it is not, I prefer the truth instead of lying in order to buy some support. I could post more of the log, but I don't feel like dragging HAMBONE into this topic. But rest assured, 2.01 was the product of the top clanner at the time. There's no point in denying it. I may be a clanner but I do not have clanner bias, I also think it's silly that anyone would assume someone has clanner bias or pubber bias.
Digz:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NGE, allbeit a long one, that was a very good read. Im not too sure I agree with all your suggestions, but I do agree with most of your points. Ty for taking the time and putting all of that together. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for reading and enjoying my article digz. Having all this stuff in one place was also kind of my intent as well, making it easy to look at the big picture of NS. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Necrosis:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If indeed the problem is more obvious in clan matches, would that not indicate some flaw in how clan comms conduct their play?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all! You see, look at how Darwin's model is applied to the game of NS. The reason clan games play more effectively, and therefore have "better" players is because all clan play really does is take a variety of strategms and mash them together, and the strategies with the <b>least</b> flaws are going to be the ones that are reused because they work.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> · Teams are made up of individual players whose playstyles (movement and aiming ability, teamwork cohesiveness, ability to process information) exhibit variation from one individual to the next · Many playstyle variations are inherited · Some playstyle variations may be advantageous while others may not · Whether or not a playstyle is advantageous depends on the environment within which a population plays · The frequency of particular playstyle variations in a team may change over time due to differential win rates and ease of use · Playstyle changes occur in teams or servers, not players · Players are not exactly like their teachers-they also vary, but the variations of their playstyles are likely to be similar to those of their teachers · Variability in a team can be represented graphically · Players produce more playstyles than can survive · There is competition between players for wins</span>
Because you have clan players who are just really pubbers from all sorts of locations, they all came pre-packed with their own playstyles and strategies. They get their clan to try them, they try it against different clans with their own playstyles form different servers, and eventually what you get are the bad playstyles are tossed out, and the good ones remain.
Or, for humorous purposes we can look at laymans terms of a clan player when discussing strategies:
"The Elec strat sucks the big one." "Fades own."
I'm sure 99% of clan players don't realize the process he goes through every time he plays a game of NS, but that is because it's a natural process, like how you eat food. I mean, clan players could technically use losing strategies, but after awhile I'm sure they'd get bored.
Now let us consider, on <b>your</b> pub where there is a fair amount of playstyles running around, aliens have lost with SC first. Also we must consider
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->· Teams are made up of individual players whose playstyles (movement and aiming ability, teamwork cohesiveness, ability to process information) exhibit variation from one individual to the next<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because if there is too much varition here then technically any playstyle could win.
But assuming even teams on your particular pub, you say aliens
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When we have went SC first, it was in combination with sheer alien aggression. However, I've seen it fail because the marines have diverted alien attention, or they've went for MT/scan/W1 and quite simply steamroll their way to any EMPTY hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So marines have come up with the idea of sticking together and using sheer numbers to punch through an SC zone. So why have not aliens done the same? Assuming even numbers there isn't a way for marines to win a fight in the SC zone. Unfortionately for your argument, there are just too many factors for me to call out on what the aliens did wrong for them to lose inside of a SC zone.
It is possible for the marines to get to a hive and start a lockdown BEFORE aliens throw up the SCs in choke points, but if they do then guess what? Were the marines actually trying to counter the SC chamber, or were they just going for a lockdown? Of course there's no way to tell and therefore that example isn't a case of the SC's weakness but rather the alien team's inablity to combat the marines effectively.
Church brings up a good point,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Necrosis. Are you saying that your marine team went without armor1 against sensory first aliens, and managed to steamroll everywhere? Something is missing there...alien skill I'm thinking. Either that or it was really back luck for the aliens. Thinking about it. Level 3 focus comes onto the field at 1:00 intot he game at the latest. Cloaking comes in before that. MT finishes researching at what...2:30, 3:00? Of course, if you built only one obs, you couldn't scan while MT was researching. So basically, MT comes in only after most of the damage potentially done by skulks with sensory upgrades are done. By the time MT comes into play, it'll only be effective for about a minute before Fades start rolling over your marines with focus.
So basically your marines managed to dominate possibly without scans for the first 3 minutes of the game without armor1 against cloakus skulks? Wow. Like I said, something is missing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your server either has limited playstyles or the individual varitions on the teams were too great.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The flaw with SC first is that once you get past the chamber, you can rip holes in the entire alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I agree with you 100% here. Taken from my analysis,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The specific losing point for SCs is only one factor; marines manage to get through a SC’s zone to breach the rest of the map, and lockdown the map. The only losing condition was for marines to break through the trench lines setup by the SCs, and once breached there is no turnaround.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You recognized the winning and losing conditions for SC much like I did. Winning is keeping marines from breaching these SC zones, and losing is letting them through. You call these win/lose conditions a flaw. Don't you find it confusing then that when people complained about the SCs, all that was done was to make the SC zone even more deadly, instead of boosting the invididual upgrades of the SC? This way, aliens do not have to rely on the SC to get the majority of their kills.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you go SC/DC then that still leaves you with only sheer aggression as your way to take out the marines, and if marines have been on the ball with their pressure, second hive is going to take a while and will certainly be a struggle till it arrives.
SC/MC means its hard to catch the aliens flatfooted, but again Scan plus upgrades means 1-2 hit kills are increasingly rare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this, could you elaborate?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As an example, I point to the siege strat of your average pub. For a while the siege rush simply wasnt working. Why? Gorges on top of the hive, immune to siege, constantly healspraying while fades/skulks chipped down the siege spot. The counter was not long in coming - now you see marines rushing into the hive to take out stragglers. Siege has become the softener before the big push.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the vet server I frequent, today a siege was tried, and the max amount of seiges were built within the area to hit it (4) but two gorges kept the hive at full health. So the marines with HMG's, Shotguns, lv. 2 weapons and lv. 1 armor try to go inside and clean it out, only to be held back by a lerk who was also on top of the hive sporing us, and two fades who just played their cards right nailing 2-hit kills on all the marines. Medspam, as you know, is expensive and difficult to use when a marine has no more armor. A fade died, but the other two (with celerity) were successful in keeping back the marines. Countless skulks died as well. Eventually an onos popped out of nowhere (because with all the attention + seiging on the hive, no marines could go out and kill nodes) and the second hive went up. Meanwhile the seiges never stopped, we got 3 obs and the hive never went below 95% because of the gorges.
Had this been b5, the marines who spent well over 500 res in one area would doubltlessly been succesful in taking down the hive, but the aliens who spent 355 (onos + 3 fades + 2 gorges + hive + 1 OC) res held it back without any close calls.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would put it to you that people are simply using the same old plays (because they've always worked) and aren't prepared to radically alter their play in order to combat new changes. I'm probably wrong, but its certainly something to consider if play is stagnated and the problem lies with only one group.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If clan players are unwilling to change their ways, then why was it only 2 weeks ago DC the chamber of choice, and today SC? In fact, SC's became the chamber of choice in little under a week since the patch. There were only small changes from b5 to 3.0 final, so it didn't take too much time to adapt.
And also, clan players are not one group. As stated before, they are all groups; they are from every server of those who wish to spend a lot of their free time playing the game of NS. They are the most of all groups. Perhaps the problem could be with your group? Not pub players, but your server. Pubbers associate themselves with pubbers but the truth is they are speaking from their server, an isolated case.
If you want to relate this to something else, think of when you introduce a foriegn species of animals to another country, say like how the rabbits were introduced to Aussie land. Rabbits grew out of control, because Australia's enviroment never anticipated the rabbit (not that it could, but hey hey whatever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Remember, the most efficent ANYTHING of a large population is almost always there for a reason.
Tjosan:
I forgot to thank you ealier for reading my article as well. I'm not gonna thank everyone but anything I respond to I may as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NGE, you need to read up on this, because what you said (with HAMBONE and all) just proves my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read up on case studies? I'm no mind reader, but I'm guessing that's what you mean.
I think what you mean is that a case study is bad because it represents only one outcome.
But what I mean by case study is the case study of a whole LOT of cases, i.e. clan play games and pub play games x1000. So I really don't understand the point you are trying to make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well yeah, it's an analysis... but I could analyse how I feel about poo. I mean, the question isnt whether he is analysing something or not, it's rather what he is analysing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being vague does not make your point any more valid? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Jamesbondzerozeroseven:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hi forlorn (gimme a while I'm reading it) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Forlorn posted under this account, it'd be banned by now!
SmoodCitizen:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd say remove the given SoF, but keep the free cloaking on sensories.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could do that over my suggestion anyday. It would need some good testing to see which version works best.
Apos:
First, thanks for giving me a read.
I'm sorry you disagree, and I'm sorry if I came across with attitude. However I would recommend to you instead of simply saying things you should use examples, because I really have no idea of what you are talking about.
You claim I have an attitude? Perhaps you didn't like how I replied with quotes of myself. That was just to save myself on some typing, I really don't care enough to insult you...
master wong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in pubs, aliens are owning, i agree with you...
since evolve new ability cost no resources and now seems faster, why not make 5 sec evolving timer?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for reading my article.
Having a 5 second timer would be a much needed trade off for free upgrades, however, I'm not sure it would be much fun for the aliens.
hotbaconsauce:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very well thought out article. Good job NGE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for reading my article, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Buggy:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Interesting, but you never do explain what the big difference between sensory chambers in the betas and final version is. Do you mean to say that the addition of spotting marines in the chamber radius is such a great advantage that it has somehow made the sensory chamber range an impassable killing field where it wasn't before?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a combination of free upgrades and aliens having all 3 upgrades while within an SC zone.
Also, marines can no longer get lucky and sneak by the sensory chamber either because of the scent of fear addition to the SC. This removes the luck factor in which SCs used to lose against as well.
In b5 it still was a killing field, I hope I didn't imply otherwise.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One is sure by now to exclaim that sensory chambers were never used in previous versions as much as other chambers because they were underpowered. In actuality, <b>this is a falsehood</b> spawned by players who could not understand how to correctly use the sensory chambers. The problem with sensory chambers was its exclusive nature it had when in fights. Ever since the advent of 2.0’s cloaking field, aliens with the sensory chambers needed to fight within the range of the sensory chamber in order to win their fights. The normal upgrades provided by the sensory chamber then did nothing to boost larger lifeforms, who became more and more about brute force, so aliens needed to use the sensory chambers to prevent expansion of marines until the second hive rolled around, which almost always marks the turning point of alien players asking for some offensive upgrades, so larger lifeforms could compete with marines as well as allow for some kind of reclamation of lost ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So yeah, I hope I didn't imply that SCs were never deadly, clans actually used them every now and then back in b5 but you never heard about it.
Terror (best team in North America last version, and maybe this one too, finals coming up soon) used SCs all the time on tanith, and other maps with easy chokepoints SCs were used as well.
SCs were NOT used when there was too open of a map, because then it was too hard for aliens to defend a lot of territory when marines could simply walk past the SC zone.
But now, SCs have even a more effective killing zone and yet nothing to address the fact that SCs normal upgrades are rather weak. (aside from focus) So on maps with a few chokepoints, like nancy or tanith, sensory chambers were used in the last version (but never really talked about) because their flaws weren't exposed, yet on maps where there were no chokepoints SCs were never used because it was too easy to circumvent them, and in the few times you had to fight against SCs the upgrades nessesary to counter it were ready. Since SCs can't cover every hive spot or all the nodes aliens throw up, marines could cap their nodes in relative saftey of skulks, and when they had to take down a node, the only threat would be the occasional cloaked skulk (who could be countered with scan) and the normal focus or scent of fear aliens are dealt with typical armor1 + medspam tactics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That midgame hasn't changed. The aliens still rock with their midgame, except now they aren't starting from the disadvantage that their early game gave them. This becomes more obvious when you look at the strats clans are employing, which, from what I hear, are still moving toward a more MC first strategy. Again, if the clans are so quick to adapt, then wouldn't MC be being dropped like a hot-potato for the glory that is the SC if it's what you say? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great point, but realize that MC may be used because clans are experimenting, don't like SC (people calling it boring or unfair) or even with the new power the SC has, on certain maps 6 players do not have enough res to cover enough of the important areas on the map.
A truely impressive article, if ever one existed, that could not be any more agreeable with.
You compared the sensory feild/choke point to trench warfare, and this could not be more true. Though i uninstalled NS the very next day i downloaded it (mid-way through 2.01 i uninstalled it for the first time, because of a general "grrr" feeling of subtle imbalance) i think i noticed this tactic in my last game. The sneaky alien gorge placed a sensory at a intersection leading to the hives and instructed us all to get focus, and defend it. At first only a few people did, but seeing how terribly effective it was (no marine ever really got by it... sort of like a good setup in a "Tower Defence" map) everyone joined in.
However, i would wonder if seiging the "trench" of SCs would improve the marine's chances at breaking through... Along with GL spam. The marines never tried it in that last game i played, and i've wondered if it would be efficent at breaking the line. (Think back to WW1. Artillery fired, then footsoldiers marched up - usually in a vain attempt - to finish the job.)
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
I'm no longer particulary bothered by the fact that I've received very little appreciation for wasting 3 years of my life on the game. It was ridiculously naive of me to expect any. But I'm going to have to draw the line at your revisionist history of NS development.
I've never denied that Stephen had input into 2.01. He had plenty.
It should be noted, however, that I was Lead QA, was responsible for trying to prevent the Veteran programme from being completely useless and was the most active member of the NS team at the time. I was responsible for attempting to get some form of useful feedback from the competitive community, which was problematic to say the least, because a large number of them (HAM, cri, eR and Pandas were notable exceptions) were more busy using the forum to score status points than actually provide anything constructive in terms of feedback.
There's a post - "2.0 Discussion And "fun Factor", =\" in the Veteran Archives which reflects exactly the moment in time you are talking about and what was one of the catalysts for change. Both myself and Stephen put forward cases for change, him by talking to Charlie, me by talking to those Veterans who actually used to turn up for tests. But in the end, the decisions were all made by Charlie and to think that he was unable to think up of the design by himself is ridiculously patronising.
I can hardly blame you for being antagonistic though, my rather unpleasant tone in my initial response was out of order and I apologise, although I still disagree with your justifications.
Addendum: Your choice of redemption methodology (like numerous variants that have been posted over the last 2 years) is vastly superior to the current one we have in place. I would have no problem in it being utilised. I would, however, prefer to see something that either drained resources as a cost of keeping the player alive or prevented the marines from getting RFK.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry you disagree, and I'm sorry if I came across with attitude. However I would recommend to you instead of simply saying things you should use examples, because I really have no idea of what you are talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I was more than clear enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You claim I have an attitude? Perhaps you didn't like how I replied with quotes of myself. That was just to save myself on some typing, I really don't care enough to insult you...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was pointlessly condescending and off-puttingly arrogant. People disagreed with points you made, so you simply made the exact same point, verbatim, over again. Your attitude is disasterously pompous, which brings to mind every single negative stereotype people have of vet/clan players. Why do that: why call that to mind? Unless that really is your character, in which case I'm sorry, because that behavior will only ever serve to make fewer people care about what you have to say, insightful or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was pointlessly condescending and off-puttingly arrogant. People disagreed with points you made, so you simply made the exact same point, verbatim, over again. Your attitude is disasterously pompous, which brings to mind every single negative stereotype people have of vet/clan players. Why do that: why call that to mind? Unless that really is your character, in which case I'm sorry, because that behavior will only ever serve to make fewer people care about what you have to say, insightful or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are being oversensitive and then slap on the clanner sterotype. Considering you are the ONLY person in this thread who says they are offended, the problem lies with your emotion and tone you are placing on my text, and it's unfair to claim I have something to do with your problems.
Where you claim pompus, I claim assertive, you claim verbatim, I claim clairification.
If you want to put a different interpretation on what I say, go for it, I can't stop you, your issues seem to extend beyond the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But in the end, the decisions were all made by Charlie and to think that he was unable to think up of the design by himself is ridiculously patronising.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a tad more from the log,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 18:56:36 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i know [ 18:56:38 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] but who cares [ 18:56:38 ] [ Forlorn ] dude [ 18:56:41 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i mean its an awful game [ 18:56:42 ] [ Forlorn ] the aliens rape it hard [ 18:56:46 ] [ Forlorn ] yep [ 18:56:49 ] [ Forlorn ] and I mean HARD [ 18:56:57 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] anyways [ 18:57:01 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] my point is [ 18:57:08 ] [ Forlorn ] i played in the UGL combat finals... ugh [ 18:57:10 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] when flayra is patching it [ 18:57:14 ] [ Forlorn ] yes? [ 18:57:17 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] we will usually talk on the phone for a few hours [ 18:57:23 ] [ Forlorn ] ah k [ 18:57:27 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and he usually listens to me [ 18:57:33 ] [ Forlorn ] Flayra's a really cool guy [ 18:57:34 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] 90% of the time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not claiming he made all the changes, but all the balance changes. He seemed sincere enough when talking to Forlorn and HAMBONE wasn't the type to brag. I guess he told my brother what he used to do just because he did not like to keep it totally secret.
And Grendel I am sure you have had plenty of impact upon the game's development process, I never questioned that. But I will give credit where it is due; and I believe HAMBONE was the miricle man when it came to the production of 2.01.
It's too bad my brother never really questioned HAMBONE a lot, he seemed too caught up in the current version and didn't quite realize the implications of what HAMBONE was saying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Addendum: Your choice of redemption methodology (like numerous variants that have been posted over the last 2 years) is vastly superior to the current one we have in place. I would have no problem in it being utilised. I would, however, prefer to see something that either drained resources as a cost of keeping the player alive or prevented the marines from getting RFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I know my proposed solution for redemption may not be the most original, but after looking at the current flaws of redemption my fix or a one similar to it seems ideal.
Also, my solution would keep the marines from getting RFK, it would work as soon as the alien hits 10%. (actually, it might have to be boosted to 15% for the skulk; 10% is 7 hp for the skulk so this means he would die when he is at 10 hp and takes another shot.) The problem with having it drain resources per redemption is that once you take the upgrade, how are you supposed to get rid of it? And redeeming at the cost of resources would never be worth it in the long run.
Hey Maverick:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A truely impressive article, if ever one existed, that could not be any more agreeable with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the read.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, i would wonder if seiging the "trench" of SCs would improve the marine's chances at breaking through... Along with GL spam. The marines never tried it in that last game i played, and i've wondered if it would be efficent at breaking the line. (Think back to WW1. Artillery fired, then footsoldiers marched up - usually in a vain attempt - to finish the job.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could seige the sensory chamber, but realize then you'd be taking a massive investment just to kill ONE chamber. Also, GLs are highly impractical to use against SCs because they come so late into the game; at least 5 minutes if you rush it! The second hive already be going up by then so GLs are an impractical choice.
Although you do bring up an interesting point; the GL is a difficult weapon to use and saps the marine team of direct firepower.
Why does it come so late into the game? It probably should be avalible much sooner than the HMG, it should be avalible around the 2 min mark given it's current usefulness and how underused it is. You only really see them in conjuction with JP or HMG because once higher lifeforms come out, GLs are basically defenseless.
I do have some problems with it. However being inexperienced in the field of NS Match Play I will refrain from most of them and defer to your authority.
I will again state before anything else that I do Not have your experience or probably your expertise, however I do have at least a semblance of a mind.
No, I'm not implying that you do not.
Offhand I kind of like the idea of removing the SoF effect from the towers altogether.
Also, as was said at one point, (and this may be an idea I like even better) possibly the best fix (if one is needed) for the towers may be to cause them to not cloak themselves, that would add even more strategy to an already strategic system, and make them less common to find on a map.
Also I wanted to make a comment:
"You should really check it if you are in the majority or not, as that is what makes or breaks any interpretation as valid."
Off-topic, but that's not true at all. Interpretations are valid based on evidence, research, and piecing-together of what was. If you argue that sociology defines proper science (in the field of research) then you're effectively saying that I can make something true because I feel like it's true. I'm sure you appreciate that as nonsense.
Probably the main gameplay-aspect of this post is in reply to your idea for redemption. It seems ridiculous, though maybe I'm missing something. You are saying that (barring exceptional mismatches, like shotguns on skulks) every alien would always have an extra life every time.
You can go ahead and refute that.
And no, you wouldnt have had the right to do so, had I not given it. =P
I would say a decent fix is to either create a non-conditional extra life that does not give out resources to rines, but still costs, and can be bought any amount of times, (but only if you don't have it).
Also if you did your fix to redemption, I would say that there would HAVE to be a timer involved, so say at 20% hp (just an example) you start a 3 second (again, just an example) timer that would, upon finishing, teleport you to base.
Church, I am saying that a clan standard team has the capacity to shoot their way through. Assuming they engage on "friendly" ground, there should be relatively few problems. Marines DID do this against an uncoordinated alien team, but the theory itself is sound. If you can outshoot an opponent and get past their defence, things get a lot easier. TBH I consider W1 a very very risky strat to try, but if it pays off, who are we to judge?
Second, if they go Focus, then they either have to hide near SC, or do conventional skulk ambushing. If you avoid the SC, you force them to engage on your terms. If they drop SC in their general hive area, then you can avoid that hive and stay on the periphery and wait for them to uncloak. If they rush out and drop SC as far from the hive as possible, then you need only steamroll past the SC before you find a nice open hive.
If they all gorge and all drop SC at various locations, chances are you should get to kill 1 or 2 of them, which sets them back a bit. SC networks dont suddenly sprout up, and to drop them means sacrificing a bit of time on RTs. Assuming a balanced spread of RT dropping and chamber dropping, you should be able to kill a few gorges or get to an unoccupied hive in order to prevent alien expansion.
Buggy - have you tried any of the things which you say can't be tried?
The focus on an SC game is more about dealing with aliens in nonSC areas. They cant drop SC everywhere, there has to be a balance between SC and RT. The marines biggest friend is TIME. With time comes armour upgrades, and SCAN. A focus fade isn't pretty, but a one hive focus fade is a lot nicer than a two hive focus fade with celerity. What about a strat that revolves around taking a hive and simply stalemating aliens before a push? If all they have is SC, then ping and teched up rines are going to do a very good job. Stalemating forces them to hold position or find a way to sneak more SC up to break the stalemate.
If you stalemate them near their hive then they can't run off to cap/kill nodes, and they cant run off to MS to force a marine withdrawal. Both sides just wait it out. Meantime some marine can be bagging free nodes in hive locations. You can push for MT and A3 and walk into the SC areas for a methodical scouring, or you can rush HA for a weldertrain, or rush JPs and try for mobility.
I'm not going to pick holes in your strat, because its straightforward and a completely fair breakdown of Tanith's key areas. I'm just saying that perhaps people should be trying something radical such as avoiding the enemy's strength and hitting him where he's weak. If they don't get a second hive then the alien game is somewhat slowed. Yes they can go for higher evos but at least you know what to expect.
I can only make so many suggestions because on the pub circuit you can generally rely on aliens screwing up. You may feel free to elaborate on counters to counters, but the core of my post is this:
<b>Has anyone tried something radically different to the usual style?</b>
Sensory is a radically different chamber to DC and MC, perhaps it requires a radical solution? Hit the enemy at their weakness.
The final and most obvious suggestion is that some older maps may not be balanced to take advantage of changes in abilities. If the problem is restricted to certain maps, perhaps that is the flaw.
EDIT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [ 18:54:49 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] youre sounding antagonistic im not trying to brag or anything [ 18:55:01 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] if i was trying to brag this would be common knowledge which it isnt [ 18:55:20 ] [ Forlorn ] No [ 18:55:22 ] [ Forlorn ] I'm not like that <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome, eh? Getting someone to privately admit to something, then slapping it up on a forum for all to see as ammo in some discussion? Laughable.
I studied genetics and virology for some 10 years, so let me enlighten you on evolution. Monocultures die. Using the same 3 strats is all well and good, but when the game suddenly changes, people should start looking at new strats. Just because I can use a rock to smash a skull doesn't mean I think a rock is capable of taking out a tank. Evolution works by doing lots of stupid things, and the most successful stupid thing is the one that keeps living. Consider the modern world, where many niche organisms are become extinct because they simply cannot adapt.
If players are sticking to "tried and true" strats, then the problem is that their old strats do not take into account new changes. If all modern clans are relying on some ancestor comm who wrote the book on strategy in 1.04, it stands to reason that in 3.0 these strats are not going to work as well.
Fades are good, people have learned to accept this and developed innovative counters to them - from outteching them to bodyblocking fleeing fades. Bodyblocking being the most "out there" counter to fades.. its counterintuitive but works surprisingly well.
So why not with SC? Why not try odd stuff as a counter?
I note you find confusion with my analysis of second hive combinations SC DC at second hive means constant alien aggression and active response to any marine, because you do not have the luxury of MCing from hive to hive. SC MC means you can respond quickly, but lack real survivability outside your "safe zones".
So a marine team can try to rapidly attack SC DC aliens in hopes of finding a chink in the armour, and a marine team can use brute force and ignorance to roll through SC MC aliens.
I read your example of a siege strat. I would highlight it as an example of how people are sticking to outdated play styles and simply not trying anything new. A pure marine rush would have severely hamstrung the hive, caused panic in the alien team, and if not outright kill the hive would certainly take it to at least half health which means aliens have to stay and guard/heal it. A solid rush means no gorge has time to egg on top of the hive, and if you're lucky you can have the hive down before people respond and MC in. Brute force and ignorance, works surprisingly well now.
You could go for combined arms and both siege AND rush in, which means aliens can either kill your rines or kill the siege, but thats a side topic.
The problem with a clan atmosphere where everyone is using the same old strat, which has never failed, is that sooner or later it WILL fail, and if noone is there to create a new strat, things will go to pieces. Different people join clans, but if they dont comm then who is to implement their radical strat? Who would even listen to their strat? Suppose the leader or regular comms say "thats a stupid nub strat" and promptly ignore it from that point on?
I speak with authority from my own 2 decades of tabletop gaming. It was a wise player who kept an eye on the new guys. With each version change, it was the new guys who found the killer strat. Why? INEXPERIENCE. Older players wouldn't try odd strats because "they never worked before".. but the rules changes made them viable. So why shouldn't top tier players try really really out there strats in order to see if they can get an edge? Its how evolution works, its how most gamers get an edge. You don't bang your head off a brick wall because you could break through a paper one - the trick is to look for ways around the problem.
In my pub, its usually chaotic at certain times. But during the chaos you see a hell of a lot more strats attempted than anything clan standard. There are some accepted openings, but from that point on anything goes. And sometimes they stumble upon a new strat that works and works well. Most siege spots are found by trial and error, then siezed upon by other players in the know. Relocations (more of a pub thing) have turned up lots of interesting and evil places which are good to lockdown. You get more results from chaos than from order.
Consider your rabbit in Oz. Rabbit could be SC, clan groups could be Oz. Noone expected the SC, so it steamrolls over the indigenous life. Interestingly the Oz response was to try and exterminate the rabbit.... isnt this also the case here? Lets exterminate the evil SC?
Even better, the rabbit dominated Oz wildlife because Oz wildlife was extremely inbred and STAGNANT. Its like Madagascar. Some really pretty wildlife, but they're all going to be toast if anything new arrives. Big fish in little ponds. Why are viruses still around? They adapt to counter everything thrown at them. Bigger animals cant do that, because they dont evolve fast enough.
The solution to SC could be by doing something wholly different and radical in terms of comm strats.
Anyhow, rambling too much, take home message is this -
<b>Try what would appear to be really dumb strats (eg locking hives instead of res)
If its just limited to 3 maps, consider that its more a map flaw than a chamber flaw </b>
Time for dinner.
EVEN MORE EDIT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 18:57:33 ] [ Forlorn ] Flayra's a really cool guy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 17 2005, 02:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 17 2005, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The marines biggest friend is TIME. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you're wrong. In TIME, the khaara gets lvl 3 upgrades. In TIME, the khaara get a lerk. In TIME, the khaara get fades. In TIME, the khaara get a second hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Awesome, eh? Getting someone to privately admit to something, then slapping it up on a forum for all to see as ammo in some discussion? Laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, Forlorn didn't get him to admit anything. That discussion happened almost a year ago. I thought you could have taken my word for it, but here's a screenshot from Forlorn's computer just to show you I'm not a dishonest person.
And no, nothing is photoshopped and no dates have been altered. I can't prove it to you, but like I said, I'm not a dishonest person. If choose not to, there's nothing more I can tell you other than you like to rely dishonesty as a form of defense. HAMBONE just randomally came up to Forlorn one evening and decided to spill his guts. Trust me, the log is a lot longer than what I posted but again enough of HAMBONE, my intent was not to drag him into the topic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone tried something radically different to the usual style?
Sensory is a radically different chamber to DC and MC, perhaps it requires a radical solution? Hit the enemy at their weakness.
The final and most obvious suggestion is that some older maps may not be balanced to take advantage of changes in abilities. If the problem is restricted to certain maps, perhaps that is the flaw.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, radical things have been tried, and they have failed. Failed for a very good reason, it's called chamber imbalance.
Like I already stated, clan play takes all playstyles and the best ones surrive.
The map has played fine for about... 2.5 years now, and you think it's a map flaw? It really sounds to me you have some kind of emotional bias of making the sensory chamber better at any cost.
Unless you have a reason, I'm not sure I understand why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I studied genetics and virology for some 10 years, so let me enlighten you on evolution. Monocultures die. Using the same 3 strats is all well and good, but when the game suddenly changes, people should start looking at new strats. Just because I can use a rock to smash a skull doesn't mean I think a rock is capable of taking out a tank. Evolution works by doing lots of stupid things, and the most successful stupid thing is the one that keeps living. Consider the modern world, where many niche organisms are become extinct because they simply cannot adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't studied evolution for 10 years, but everything you just said is common sense which is taught in a high school classroom today. Monocultures die, and so do strategies and playstyles. Things that work live on.
And like I already said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clan players are unwilling to change their ways, then why was it only 2 weeks ago DC the chamber of choice, and today SC? In fact, SC's became the chamber of choice in little under a week since the patch. There were only small changes from b5 to 3.0 final, so it didn't take too much time to adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And like I already said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan play of natural selection indeed follows Darwin’s model, strategies best suited to win survive, whereas ones that do not win, fade out of existence. What strategies have faded out of existence? Those who agree with such linear logic as the above argument displays will never know, because they lack the intrinsic values which make skilled players skilled; the ability to adapt quickly. <b>However, one can ask any clanplayer about failed strategies he has used in the past, he will be able to name countless strategies that made them lose horribly.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So really, I have no idea what you are talking about. Clanplayers try everything, the reason you don't see much of it is because if it doesn't work then they won't use it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with a clan atmosphere where everyone is using the same old strat, which has never failed, is that sooner or later it WILL fail, and if noone is there to create a new strat, things will go to pieces. Different people join clans, but if they dont comm then who is to implement their radical strat? Who would even listen to their strat? Suppose the leader or regular comms say "thats a stupid nub strat" and promptly ignore it from that point on?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, clan players do not use the "same old strat", they use the most effective strategy for the given situation at hand. Furthermore, these strategies can and will fail, but the reason they have continued use is because they have the least chances of failing outside of a players control.
Also, clanplayers do not need to command to try out a strategy. As previously mentioned:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan play revolves around teamwork. Teamwork done through combined attacks, through increased communication, and a plan before the game even starts marks the efficiency of an alien team in clan play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This can be paraphrased into "Teamwork done through combined attacks, through increased communication, and a plan before the game even starts marks the efficiency of a team in clan play." so it's not exclusive to just alien teams in clan play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Consider your rabbit in Oz. Rabbit could be SC, clan groups could be Oz. Noone expected the SC, so it steamrolls over the indigenous life. Interestingly the Oz response was to try and exterminate the rabbit.... isnt this also the case here? Lets exterminate the evil SC?
Even better, the rabbit dominated Oz wildlife because Oz wildlife was extremely inbred and STAGNANT. Its like Madagascar. Some really pretty wildlife, but they're all going to be toast if anything new arrives. Big fish in little ponds. Why are viruses still around? They adapt to counter everything thrown at them. Bigger animals cant do that, because they dont evolve fast enough.
The solution to SC could be by doing something wholly different and radical in terms of comm strats. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No but see, this isn't the real world. This is the developers world, and in this world we can only do what he allows us to do. Therefore no one can make up something totally different beyond the norm, if something comes in and dominates the field it will stay that way.
Was that really nessesary, or does it add to the discussion in any meaningful way?
Harrower:
Thanks for reading and enjoying my paper. I'm glad you liked it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"You should really check it if you are in the majority or not, as that is what makes or breaks any interpretation as valid."
Off-topic, but that's not true at all. Interpretations are valid based on evidence, research, and piecing-together of what was. If you argue that sociology defines proper science (in the field of research) then you're effectively saying that I can make something true because I feel like it's true. I'm sure you appreciate that as nonsense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generally speaking, having the majority's backing is because they agree with one's evidence, research, and piecing-together of what is.
You see, I assume the majority is well educated and fairly rational when considering things, where you seem to assume that the majority is the kind that executed Jesus. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Haha, you shouldn't be so pessimistic when it comes to a video game analysis and the majority who agree with it's interpretation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Probably the main gameplay-aspect of this post is in reply to your idea for redemption. It seems ridiculous, though maybe I'm missing something. You are saying that (barring exceptional mismatches, like shotguns on skulks) every alien would always have an extra life every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Is there something wrong with that? If you think there aren't any downsides, realize that if redemption kicks in always at 15% or 10%, that means you have effectively 10% or 15% less health before you are removed from combat.
Whereas, if you did not have redemption as an upgrade, the alien could remain in combat longer!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also if you did your fix to redemption, I would say that there would HAVE to be a timer involved, so say at 20% hp (just an example) you start a 3 second (again, just an example) timer that would, upon finishing, teleport you to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think there must be a timer involved? If there is a timer involved then it would be useless for skulks.
Godlol:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is this nge talking or is it forlorn talking threw his brothers computer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do people keep assuming I am Forlorn? Is he the only one allowed to make large posts on these forums? Again, there's a reason he's perma banned and I'm not.
Tjosan:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is where you're wrong. In TIME, the khaara gets lvl 3 upgrades. In TIME, the khaara get a lerk. In TIME, the khaara get fades. In TIME, the khaara get a second hive.
In TIME, marines get slaughtered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you completely, and because I hate retyping myself,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game revolves around the fact that aliens are weak and fast; enabling them to perform hit and runs, meanwhile marines are powerful, slow, and expend their firepower relatively quickly; promoting a mentality to destroy a target as fast as possible. This is easily seen in game, where if a fight goes on too long, aliens almost always win. Marines generally need to flatten the aliens as fast as possible else they are risking it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
On our lowly pub, aliens do parasite, do use teamwork, do assign "roles" (hive, chambers, first fade, first lerk). We have ff on, so naturally we're very fond of MC first as it allows an instant rush to any other hive. Exceptionally worthwhile when you consider hive lockdowns are the strat of choice on the pub circuit.
When we have went SC first, it was in combination with sheer alien aggression. However, I've seen it fail because the marines have diverted alien attention, or they've went for MT/scan/W1 and quite simply steamroll their way to any EMPTY hive.
Once in said hive they can of course construct a minibase which can cover the local node and anything within walking distance. Once the obs is up, no alien can get in unmolested. Turrets discourage everything, and fades are generally received by shotgun wielding marines.
The flaw with SC first is that once you get past the chamber, you can rip holes in the entire alien team. Scan lights them up like little christmas trees, and since they have no DC upgrade you can expect to comfortably rip through them if you're cautious. Medspam also helps.
If you go SC/DC then that still leaves you with only sheer aggression as your way to take out the marines, and if marines have been on the ball with their pressure, second hive is going to take a while and will certainly be a struggle till it arrives.
SC/MC means its hard to catch the aliens flatfooted, but again Scan plus upgrades means 1-2 hit kills are increasingly rare.
Certainly with better players its EASY to spot when SC has been dropped first. And the counter isnt much of a deviation from standard marine play. SC relies on surprise value, and once you have an obs network you can spot where the rush is coming from and swiftly crush it.
I don't know how it factors into true competitive play, but I see your words about clan play being about finding an edge an honing it.... thats all well and good, but sometimes you're just grinding metal. In games with competent players I've seen medspam and scan easily negate the ambush advantage, and marines can steamroll into a location with comparative ease.
As an example, I point to the siege strat of your average pub. For a while the siege rush simply wasnt working. Why? Gorges on top of the hive, immune to siege, constantly healspraying while fades/skulks chipped down the siege spot. The counter was not long in coming - now you see marines rushing into the hive to take out stragglers. Siege has become the softener before the big push.
I would put it to you that people are simply using the same old plays (because they've always worked) and aren't prepared to radically alter their play in order to combat new changes. I'm probably wrong, but its certainly something to consider if play is stagnated and the problem lies with only one group.
EDIT
Consider, cloaking helps you hide, sof lets you see them coming, focus helps you kill them. Sof is countered by not doing ninja pg rushes. If every marine on the map is training towards you, sof isn't really helping other than to tell you it a biiiig rush. Cloaking is negated by scan, so you have to rely on getting in first. If they have armor ups then medspam can counter this is marines are decent shots. If they have weapon ups, marines can bait or crawl in with all guns blazing. Battering ram tactics. If people are assumed to be gorging, dropping another hive, or evolving, then that leaves few players to guard the SC zone. Second, once you're THROUGH the SC zone its a bit late for aliens to drop more SC to counter. They have to fall back to another SC zone.
Its pretty hard to cover the map in SC before marines find out you have SC. Marines can either steamroll the main hive, or hit either free hives (before they fall under the sc network) and dominate any local nodes. The SC net will take a bit to reach them, and even then its negated by scan AND the SC net is placed on YOUR terms. Most SC zones work because they're good hideyholes as is, so skulks are always at the advantage. If you force them to SC up areas that favour rines, then a quick scan moves things to your side.
As I say, could be all wrong, but its a definite counterpoint to the ability of sensory. Its great until its circumvented, at which point its just a way of letting you know your hive is about to die to 5 sg rines.
The aspiring critics in this thread could next time at least bother to be informed beforehand, instead of yelling "it sounds scientific, but theres no charts!". It doesn't need no flipping charts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How foolish of me.
We should "use the force" instead.
[Edited for politeness.]
Or, you could make some serious changes to the observatory. Make it start with 50 energy, and only cost 10 res to build, for example. That might give the marines an actual affordable and effective counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So SCs only give SoF bonuses, so there won't be cloakus skulks around every corner. Not a bad idea, because this makes the Sensory zones less devestating.
I still think that having the chambers' passive ability differ depending upon the aliens upgrade is a better solution as it makes the sensory chamber more unique. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking along the same lines, just rather then removing the cloak compleatly decreasing the range of it to a radius of 100 units from the chamber. That way sensory chambers could still be used effectivley but if people were acctually making use of its cloaking range the chamber would be extreamly vulnerable to being found, and if you dumped a clip of GL ammo into a cloaked WOL the sensory would be taken out with it.
Force the players to choose weather they are going to use sensories as recon or if they are going to risk giving the chamber away to use it as a combat aide.
I still think that silence and focus should switch chambers though, and SC chambers should still screw over motion tracking within thier range, making obs the hard counter to SC via pings and MT to counter all SC abilities.
(gimme a while I'm reading it)
So basically your marines managed to dominate possibly without scans for the first 3 minutes of the game without armor1 against cloakus skulks? Wow. Like I said, something is missing here.
<img src='http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
even spider silk is not weak
maybe you mean cotton or tissues. haha
My opinions, based on my own a-nal-y-sis, is that 3.0 still needs another week or so at least to really know how it shakes out. Things are already changing as comms learn how to adjust and aliens learn how to use the new ability features correctly. I still don't see the sort of general stability of things that we came to see with b5 eventually. And sorry, simply quoting the section of your post where you dismiss this point means nothing. We don't agree. Present new reasons if you want to convince me.
As for redemption, I agree on the chance issue, but I don't know about the timer. My druthers would be to have the first redeem be free, and then the rest a decreasing probability each time you successfully redeem. The upgrade should have some SURE worth, I agree, but then be increasingly unreliable. The timer idea just makes things too complex (again, you say not, I know, but I don't agree with you) for worry about, and would lead to a lot of waiting around.
As for SCs, I like them the way they are, mostly because they are great fun. It is marines that need some buffs to deal with them: easier path to elec and less convoluted scan abilities (point and click scans). People have to realize that if aliens take sensory, they are automatically put on the defensive. Lockdown, elec move slowly in large groups. It's a matter of time. Fades when they appear will go down easily. The main problem for marines with sens is simply that the counters are so expensive compared to other chambers. But that's in part a marine issue as much as it is an alien issue.
All three upgrades at once? Yes, sure: but only in one place. Simply saying it doesn't prove it's overpowered. Scan removes the most dangerous problem, SoF is not particularly useful once combat has already begun (or there's been a scan, which is alert enough), and focus is... focus. You get armor1, you travel in groups with high rates of fire, its sorted. And the price aliens pay is considerable: their first fades will be fragile, they can't easily defend the building second hive if its attacked, they can't be as offensive as they need to take down outposts, etc. You can't call something unbalanced without looking at the whole game. Single engagements in a killbox area isn't the whole game.
Lose the attitude. People will be much more willing to listen.
spore + focus ftw in stripping down outposts; skulks and lerks are not the ideal solution for elec turrets anyway, and such are not so scary for fade. i don't know if it is significantly weaker; with focus the fade does not have to expose themself as long
since evolve new ability cost no resources and now seems faster, why not make 5 sec evolving timer?
How, exactly, do you want the clan comms to play against sc's on, pick a map, Tanith? You get forced to take armor1 first in regards to focus. You need double and preferably west access straight away. As you might know, the main choke points on Tanith are Cargo and Chemical Transport.
A more common strat thus dictates you send two marines to cap double, one to west access/waste before they meet up for a cargo push. Note, by the time marines are ready to step to their doom, the sc's are already up. An alternative. You have the west access guy cap double, while two or, god forbid, three marines run like the dickens for cargo straight away. That's hoping the aliens don't have Fusion, because if they do, your plan was screwed before it got executed.
If the aliens get Waste, the first contacts will be made in central access tunnels, which will either slow the marines down, or result in losses (This is all assuming equal skill between both teams). If they get slowed down, your fate is sealed because the aliens got their sensory up. If they don't, whether or not they lose a marine, it is STILL a window of mere seconds, and there WILL be aliens in Cargo. Scenario will be: 2-3 skulks wait in Cargo entrance, not really in a hurry since their gorge is still holding E. Marines might try luring them out. Might work, but they still won't get anywhere. Assuming the aliens know how the game works, they won't fall for it, and continue camping. The only chance the marines have is to have one guy go for the bhop-over-the-crate trick, with the other(s) covering. This fight could go either way, but that's assuming the marines even get there, that fast.
If the aliens get Satcom, it will be a lot like the Waste scenario, without the advantage of early encounters before Cargo, which is why the marines are in favour with this starting hive. However, if all else fails, a sensory in chemical that covers large parts of acidic, works just fine, which still leaves the aliens with 3 rt's.
All the above is under the restriction of having one node-capper (two if you insist on having a single basebuilder, and having another marine cap west access) and a time window that is so small, it's ridiculously unfair. Btw, killing single cappers is not the hardest thing ever with sensory. Having a capper pair? As much as some people hate ramboing, marines NEED that ability to hold their own against a single skulk. Seeing the amount of effort you need to breach a sensory chokepoint as it is, the last thing you want is having two cappers holding hands.
<i>So, why don't we have one base builder, 2-3 going for chem straight away, and 1-2 building double?</i>
With 3.0F, a more balanced strat such as this may be the best option. However, this leaves virtually no room for a cargo push. The guys in double will spend a good minute or so building, the sensory will be up, and the area is locked, granting at least Fusion and Cargo res nodes under alien control. So, your only hope lies with the pair of guys in Chemical, and they better be called Mustang and his EU counterpart Wzza. But since cloaking takes away the basic skill that determines how good a marine is, and depends more on eating a lot of carrots for eyesight, big names won't help you here. Let's take it apart again, hive by hive.
Waste: Aliens will probably plant an sc within acidic, at the chemical transport wall. They may choose to build it in the vent, it won't be used a lot anyway. Now, if by some chance, the marines DO break through acidic, what are they exactly there for? They'll "breach" from deathtrap #1, to deathtrap #2, being cargo. With the aliens having 4 rt's under their control and locked, game over.
Fusion: Aliens can and will have the majority of their skulks in chemical, and since the sensory will go under the vent, they will not have to worry about marines getting there too early. They can wait. In acidic, at the vent entrance, behind the box... It doesnt matter, the sensory will go up, and the marines will get destroyed, unless they flee into satcom, which leaves the same scenario as waste, being that the marines can't do anything but cap satcom rt for the hell of it, before walking back to their doom at Chemical. Please don't go saying "but they could boost into the vent and get a sneaky pg up!", it wont happen. Aliens will know how many marines were in satcom, they won't believe someone suddenly vaporized, they will check the vent.
Satcom: Seemingly the only hive that marines have a chance of getting into cargo with, the 2-2 split strat screws itself over here, because the chem marines, again, will either run into (and die in) Chem, Cargo, or Satcom.
Any strat other than the ones i mentioned are not even remotely viable. Tanith marine game relies on capping and holding double, west access, and waste (waste starting hive excluded of course, this will move wa/waste to chem/sat), before moving on a building hive. You need at least two marines to go to that area to hold it, otherwise you'll be defending rt's before you even put them up.
So, a recap: Tanith sc games rely on a good starting hive (satcom is your best bet, waste is not bad at all in the mentioned scenario's), coupled with a small time window of rushing some marines through cargo. As suggested earlier, rushing chem is not an option, in that you serve Cargo to the aliens on a plate, and in most cases having to go through two sc zones. If you don't breach cargo early on, it's game over. If you do breach cargo early on, you still have to make an effort to boost for the sensory on top, before going for the res towers, which all takes time, and leaves you open for smart skulks. Your tech choice of path is armor1, no explanation needed. There is no freedom of choice, whether it be how you deploy your marines at the start of the game, or which tech you get first.
You can, if you wish to waste your time, rip this post apart, piece by piece, and say: "Your story is filled with 'what if', 'supposedly', and 'assuming', but the above is how most of the current sensory games on tanith will go as it is.
I've commed Tanith a thousand times, public and competitive, I can dream what will happen 90%, and I typed it all out for you.
So, I ask again..
How, exactly, do you want the clan comms to play against sc's?
(This post was made to show that there is no point in 'waiting another week and see how it goes', or 'trying different things'. There is nothing else to be tried).
This is the thing I keep running up against when I see people who tremble at the awesome power of the sensory chamber in 3.0 final.. it's power hasn't changed that much from 3.0 beta. If it makes an impassable killing field now, I fail to see how it was less impassable in the betas. And if the clans are so quick to adapt, then why wasn't the uberpower of the Sensory Killing Field seriously complained about before? I suggest it's because it does not have any such uberpower.
The problem is not the chambers. The problem, if there is one, is the free and, more importantly, fast upgrades. The alien early game has been greatly enhanced without a corresponding change in balance to the middle game. During the betas, the aliens had to suffer through a distressingly poor early game strength. If they survived this by being quick enough to capitalize on any opportunities the marines left, they could then move on to their middle game and the fade which had enough power to stage a comeback for the aliens. (Or lose it completely.. depending on the skill of the fade player)
That midgame hasn't changed. The aliens still rock with their midgame, except now they aren't starting from the disadvantage that their early game gave them. This becomes more obvious when you look at the strats clans are employing, which, from what I hear, are still moving toward a more MC first strategy. Again, if the clans are so quick to adapt, then wouldn't MC be being dropped like a hot-potato for the glory that is the SC if it's what you say?
Grendel, first off, thanks for reading my article, I forgot to do so in my other post.
You are lucky Forlorn is home from spring break, he's banned from these forums but can still read it, he gave me a portion of a log,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 18:53:17 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i mean ive never really told anyone
[ 18:53:22 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] just my personal history
[ 18:53:32 ] [ Forlorn ] ?
[ 18:53:45 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i convinecd flayra 3-4 days before 2.0 to fix it
[ 18:53:56 ] [ Forlorn ] which was..?
[ 18:53:58 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and just from 3 days of playing it everyone unanimously agreed it was better than the original game
[ 18:54:10 ] [ Forlorn ] what did you do?
[ 18:54:11 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] anyways
[ 18:54:14 ] [ Forlorn ] make res flow faster?
[ 18:54:29 ] [ Forlorn ] removing the activation timing?
[ 18:54:30 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] it was something like 20 changes
[ 18:54:34 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i dont remember
[ 18:54:37 ] [ Forlorn ] ah yes
[ 18:54:40 ] [ Forlorn ] yep
[ 18:54:49 ] [ Forlorn ] i was just watching some 1.04 demo's
[ 18:54:49 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] youre sounding antagonistic im not trying to brag or anything
[ 18:54:57 ] [ Forlorn ] the one's on your site
[ 18:55:01 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] if i was trying to brag this would be common knowledge which it isnt
[ 18:55:07 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] so anyways
[ 18:55:20 ] [ Forlorn ] No
[ 18:55:22 ] [ Forlorn ] I'm not like that
[ 18:55:27 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] from 2.0 -> 2.01 i made most of the balance changes
[ 18:55:38 ] [ Forlorn ] That's cool
[ 18:55:43 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and then the same with 3.0
[ 18:55:47 ] [ Forlorn ] wow
[ 18:55:50 ] [ Forlorn ] 3.0 too?
[ 18:55:50 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] but in 3.0 i only cared about combat
[ 18:55:51 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] so
[ 18:55:58 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i didnt pay any attention to NS
[ 18:56:01 ] [ Forlorn ] ah
[ 18:56:02 ] [ Forlorn ] yeah
[ 18:56:04 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] anyways look the point is this
[ 18:56:06 ] [ Forlorn ] we all fell into that phase
[ 18:56:17 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] im not that proud of my job on 3.0
[ 18:56:23 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i mean combat was very balanced but it sucked
[ 18:56:26 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] towards the end
[ 18:56:30 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and i tried to get him to overhaul it
[ 18:56:31 ] [ Forlorn ] combat isn't balanced at all anymore
[ 18:56:36 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i know
[ 18:56:38 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] but who cares<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may think it is fabricated, but I assure you it is not, I prefer the truth instead of lying in order to buy some support.
I could post more of the log, but I don't feel like dragging HAMBONE into this topic. But rest assured, 2.01 was the product of the top clanner at the time. There's no point in denying it. I may be a clanner but I do not have clanner bias, I also think it's silly that anyone would assume someone has clanner bias or pubber bias.
Digz:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NGE, allbeit a long one, that was a very good read. Im not too sure I agree with all your suggestions, but I do agree with most of your points. Ty for taking the time and putting all of that together.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for reading and enjoying my article digz. Having all this stuff in one place was also kind of my intent as well, making it easy to look at the big picture of NS. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Necrosis:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If indeed the problem is more obvious in clan matches, would that not indicate some flaw in how clan comms conduct their play?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all! You see, look at how Darwin's model is applied to the game of NS. The reason clan games play more effectively, and therefore have "better" players is because all clan play really does is take a variety of strategms and mash them together, and the strategies with the <b>least</b> flaws are going to be the ones that are reused because they work.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>
· Teams are made up of individual players whose playstyles (movement and aiming ability, teamwork cohesiveness, ability to process information) exhibit variation from one individual to the next
· Many playstyle variations are inherited
· Some playstyle variations may be advantageous while others may not
· Whether or not a playstyle is advantageous depends on the environment within which a population plays
· The frequency of particular playstyle variations in a team may change over time due to differential win rates and ease of use
· Playstyle changes occur in teams or servers, not players
· Players are not exactly like their teachers-they also vary, but the variations of their playstyles are likely to be similar to those of their teachers
· Variability in a team can be represented graphically
· Players produce more playstyles than can survive
· There is competition between players for wins</span>
Because you have clan players who are just really pubbers from all sorts of locations, they all came pre-packed with their own playstyles and strategies. They get their clan to try them, they try it against different clans with their own playstyles form different servers, and eventually what you get are the bad playstyles are tossed out, and the good ones remain.
Or, for humorous purposes we can look at laymans terms of a clan player when discussing strategies:
"The Elec strat sucks the big one."
"Fades own."
I'm sure 99% of clan players don't realize the process he goes through every time he plays a game of NS, but that is because it's a natural process, like how you eat food. I mean, clan players could technically use losing strategies, but after awhile I'm sure they'd get bored.
Now let us consider, on <b>your</b> pub where there is a fair amount of playstyles running around, aliens have lost with SC first. Also we must consider
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->· Teams are made up of individual players whose playstyles (movement and aiming ability, teamwork cohesiveness, ability to process information) exhibit variation from one individual to the next<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because if there is too much varition here then technically any playstyle could win.
But assuming even teams on your particular pub, you say aliens
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When we have went SC first, it was in combination with sheer alien aggression. However, I've seen it fail because the marines have diverted alien attention, or they've went for MT/scan/W1 and quite simply steamroll their way to any EMPTY hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So marines have come up with the idea of sticking together and using sheer numbers to punch through an SC zone.
So why have not aliens done the same? Assuming even numbers there isn't a way for marines to win a fight in the SC zone. Unfortionately for your argument, there are just too many factors for me to call out on what the aliens did wrong for them to lose inside of a SC zone.
It is possible for the marines to get to a hive and start a lockdown BEFORE aliens throw up the SCs in choke points, but if they do then guess what? Were the marines actually trying to counter the SC chamber, or were they just going for a lockdown? Of course there's no way to tell and therefore that example isn't a case of the SC's weakness but rather the alien team's inablity to combat the marines effectively.
Church brings up a good point,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Necrosis. Are you saying that your marine team went without armor1 against sensory first aliens, and managed to steamroll everywhere? Something is missing there...alien skill I'm thinking. Either that or it was really back luck for the aliens. Thinking about it. Level 3 focus comes onto the field at 1:00 intot he game at the latest. Cloaking comes in before that. MT finishes researching at what...2:30, 3:00? Of course, if you built only one obs, you couldn't scan while MT was researching. So basically, MT comes in only after most of the damage potentially done by skulks with sensory upgrades are done. By the time MT comes into play, it'll only be effective for about a minute before Fades start rolling over your marines with focus.
So basically your marines managed to dominate possibly without scans for the first 3 minutes of the game without armor1 against cloakus skulks? Wow. Like I said, something is missing here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your server either has limited playstyles or the individual varitions on the teams were too great.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The flaw with SC first is that once you get past the chamber, you can rip holes in the entire alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I agree with you 100% here. Taken from my analysis,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The specific losing point for SCs is only one factor; marines manage to get through a SC’s zone to breach the rest of the map, and lockdown the map. The only losing condition was for marines to break through the trench lines setup by the SCs, and once breached there is no turnaround.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You recognized the winning and losing conditions for SC much like I did. Winning is keeping marines from breaching these SC zones, and losing is letting them through. You call these win/lose conditions a flaw. Don't you find it confusing then that when people complained about the SCs, all that was done was to make the SC zone even more deadly, instead of boosting the invididual upgrades of the SC? This way, aliens do not have to rely on the SC to get the majority of their kills.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you go SC/DC then that still leaves you with only sheer aggression as your way to take out the marines, and if marines have been on the ball with their pressure, second hive is going to take a while and will certainly be a struggle till it arrives.
SC/MC means its hard to catch the aliens flatfooted, but again Scan plus upgrades means 1-2 hit kills are increasingly rare.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this, could you elaborate?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As an example, I point to the siege strat of your average pub. For a while the siege rush simply wasnt working. Why? Gorges on top of the hive, immune to siege, constantly healspraying while fades/skulks chipped down the siege spot. The counter was not long in coming - now you see marines rushing into the hive to take out stragglers. Siege has become the softener before the big push.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the vet server I frequent, today a siege was tried, and the max amount of seiges were built within the area to hit it (4) but two gorges kept the hive at full health. So the marines with HMG's, Shotguns, lv. 2 weapons and lv. 1 armor try to go inside and clean it out, only to be held back by a lerk who was also on top of the hive sporing us, and two fades who just played their cards right nailing 2-hit kills on all the marines. Medspam, as you know, is expensive and difficult to use when a marine has no more armor. A fade died, but the other two (with celerity) were successful in keeping back the marines. Countless skulks died as well. Eventually an onos popped out of nowhere (because with all the attention + seiging on the hive, no marines could go out and kill nodes) and the second hive went up. Meanwhile the seiges never stopped, we got 3 obs and the hive never went below 95% because of the gorges.
Had this been b5, the marines who spent well over 500 res in one area would doubltlessly been succesful in taking down the hive, but the aliens who spent 355 (onos + 3 fades + 2 gorges + hive + 1 OC) res held it back without any close calls.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would put it to you that people are simply using the same old plays (because they've always worked) and aren't prepared to radically alter their play in order to combat new changes. I'm probably wrong, but its certainly something to consider if play is stagnated and the problem lies with only one group.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If clan players are unwilling to change their ways, then why was it only 2 weeks ago DC the chamber of choice, and today SC? In fact, SC's became the chamber of choice in little under a week since the patch. There were only small changes from b5 to 3.0 final, so it didn't take too much time to adapt.
And also, clan players are not one group. As stated before, they are all groups; they are from every server of those who wish to spend a lot of their free time playing the game of NS. They are the most of all groups.
Perhaps the problem could be with your group? Not pub players, but your server. Pubbers associate themselves with pubbers but the truth is they are speaking from their server, an isolated case.
If you want to relate this to something else, think of when you introduce a foriegn species of animals to another country, say like how the rabbits were introduced to Aussie land. Rabbits grew out of control, because Australia's enviroment never anticipated the rabbit (not that it could, but hey hey whatever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Remember, the most efficent ANYTHING of a large population is almost always there for a reason.
Tjosan:
I forgot to thank you ealier for reading my article as well. I'm not gonna thank everyone but anything I respond to I may as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NGE, you need to read up on this, because what you said (with HAMBONE and all) just proves my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read up on case studies? I'm no mind reader, but I'm guessing that's what you mean.
I think what you mean is that a case study is bad because it represents only one outcome.
But what I mean by case study is the case study of a whole LOT of cases, i.e. clan play games and pub play games x1000. So I really don't understand the point you are trying to make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well yeah, it's an analysis... but I could analyse how I feel about poo. I mean, the question isnt whether he is analysing something or not, it's rather what he is analysing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being vague does not make your point any more valid? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Jamesbondzerozeroseven:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hi forlorn
(gimme a while I'm reading it) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Forlorn posted under this account, it'd be banned by now!
SmoodCitizen:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd say remove the given SoF, but keep the free cloaking on sensories.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could do that over my suggestion anyday. It would need some good testing to see which version works best.
Apos:
First, thanks for giving me a read.
I'm sorry you disagree, and I'm sorry if I came across with attitude. However I would recommend to you instead of simply saying things you should use examples, because I really have no idea of what you are talking about.
You claim I have an attitude? Perhaps you didn't like how I replied with quotes of myself. That was just to save myself on some typing, I really don't care enough to insult you...
master wong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in pubs, aliens are owning, i agree with you...
since evolve new ability cost no resources and now seems faster, why not make 5 sec evolving timer?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for reading my article.
Having a 5 second timer would be a much needed trade off for free upgrades, however, I'm not sure it would be much fun for the aliens.
hotbaconsauce:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very well thought out article. Good job NGE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for reading my article, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Buggy:
Thanks for reading my article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Interesting, but you never do explain what the big difference between sensory chambers in the betas and final version is. Do you mean to say that the addition of spotting marines in the chamber radius is such a great advantage that it has somehow made the sensory chamber range an impassable killing field where it wasn't before?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a combination of free upgrades and aliens having all 3 upgrades while within an SC zone.
Also, marines can no longer get lucky and sneak by the sensory chamber either because of the scent of fear addition to the SC. This removes the luck factor in which SCs used to lose against as well.
In b5 it still was a killing field, I hope I didn't imply otherwise.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One is sure by now to exclaim that sensory chambers were never used in previous versions as much as other chambers because they were underpowered. In actuality, <b>this is a falsehood</b> spawned by players who could not understand how to correctly use the sensory chambers. The problem with sensory chambers was its exclusive nature it had when in fights. Ever since the advent of 2.0’s cloaking field, aliens with the sensory chambers needed to fight within the range of the sensory chamber in order to win their fights. The normal upgrades provided by the sensory chamber then did nothing to boost larger lifeforms, who became more and more about brute force, so aliens needed to use the sensory chambers to prevent expansion of marines until the second hive rolled around, which almost always marks the turning point of alien players asking for some offensive upgrades, so larger lifeforms could compete with marines as well as allow for some kind of reclamation of lost ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So yeah, I hope I didn't imply that SCs were never deadly, clans actually used them every now and then back in b5 but you never heard about it.
Terror (best team in North America last version, and maybe this one too, finals coming up soon) used SCs all the time on tanith, and other maps with easy chokepoints SCs were used as well.
SCs were NOT used when there was too open of a map, because then it was too hard for aliens to defend a lot of territory when marines could simply walk past the SC zone.
But now, SCs have even a more effective killing zone and yet nothing to address the fact that SCs normal upgrades are rather weak. (aside from focus)
So on maps with a few chokepoints, like nancy or tanith, sensory chambers were used in the last version (but never really talked about) because their flaws weren't exposed, yet on maps where there were no chokepoints SCs were never used because it was too easy to circumvent them, and in the few times you had to fight against SCs the upgrades nessesary to counter it were ready. Since SCs can't cover every hive spot or all the nodes aliens throw up, marines could cap their nodes in relative saftey of skulks, and when they had to take down a node, the only threat would be the occasional cloaked skulk (who could be countered with scan) and the normal focus or scent of fear aliens are dealt with typical armor1 + medspam tactics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That midgame hasn't changed. The aliens still rock with their midgame, except now they aren't starting from the disadvantage that their early game gave them. This becomes more obvious when you look at the strats clans are employing, which, from what I hear, are still moving toward a more MC first strategy. Again, if the clans are so quick to adapt, then wouldn't MC be being dropped like a hot-potato for the glory that is the SC if it's what you say?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great point, but realize that MC may be used because clans are experimenting, don't like SC (people calling it boring or unfair) or even with the new power the SC has, on certain maps 6 players do not have enough res to cover enough of the important areas on the map.
You compared the sensory feild/choke point to trench warfare, and this could not be more true. Though i uninstalled NS the very next day i downloaded it (mid-way through 2.01 i uninstalled it for the first time, because of a general "grrr" feeling of subtle imbalance) i think i noticed this tactic in my last game. The sneaky alien gorge placed a sensory at a intersection leading to the hives and instructed us all to get focus, and defend it. At first only a few people did, but seeing how terribly effective it was (no marine ever really got by it... sort of like a good setup in a "Tower Defence" map) everyone joined in.
However, i would wonder if seiging the "trench" of SCs would improve the marine's chances at breaking through... Along with GL spam. The marines never tried it in that last game i played, and i've wondered if it would be efficent at breaking the line. (Think back to WW1. Artillery fired, then footsoldiers marched up - usually in a vain attempt - to finish the job.)
I've never denied that Stephen had input into 2.01. He had plenty.
It should be noted, however, that I was Lead QA, was responsible for trying to prevent the Veteran programme from being completely useless and was the most active member of the NS team at the time. I was responsible for attempting to get some form of useful feedback from the competitive community, which was problematic to say the least, because a large number of them (HAM, cri, eR and Pandas were notable exceptions) were more busy using the forum to score status points than actually provide anything constructive in terms of feedback.
There's a post - "2.0 Discussion And "fun Factor", =\" in the Veteran Archives which reflects exactly the moment in time you are talking about and what was one of the catalysts for change. Both myself and Stephen put forward cases for change, him by talking to Charlie, me by talking to those Veterans who actually used to turn up for tests. But in the end, the decisions were all made by Charlie and to think that he was unable to think up of the design by himself is ridiculously patronising.
I can hardly blame you for being antagonistic though, my rather unpleasant tone in my initial response was out of order and I apologise, although I still disagree with your justifications.
Addendum: Your choice of redemption methodology (like numerous variants that have been posted over the last 2 years) is vastly superior to the current one we have in place. I would have no problem in it being utilised. I would, however, prefer to see something that either drained resources as a cost of keeping the player alive or prevented the marines from getting RFK.
I think I was more than clear enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You claim I have an attitude? Perhaps you didn't like how I replied with quotes of myself. That was just to save myself on some typing, I really don't care enough to insult you...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was pointlessly condescending and off-puttingly arrogant. People disagreed with points you made, so you simply made the exact same point, verbatim, over again. Your attitude is disasterously pompous, which brings to mind every single negative stereotype people have of vet/clan players. Why do that: why call that to mind? Unless that really is your character, in which case I'm sorry, because that behavior will only ever serve to make fewer people care about what you have to say, insightful or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was pointlessly condescending and off-puttingly arrogant. People disagreed with points you made, so you simply made the exact same point, verbatim, over again. Your attitude is disasterously pompous, which brings to mind every single negative stereotype people have of vet/clan players. Why do that: why call that to mind? Unless that really is your character, in which case I'm sorry, because that behavior will only ever serve to make fewer people care about what you have to say, insightful or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are being oversensitive and then slap on the clanner sterotype. Considering you are the ONLY person in this thread who says they are offended, the problem lies with your emotion and tone you are placing on my text, and it's unfair to claim I have something to do with your problems.
Where you claim pompus, I claim assertive, you claim verbatim, I claim clairification.
If you want to put a different interpretation on what I say, go for it, I can't stop you, your issues seem to extend beyond the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But in the end, the decisions were all made by Charlie and to think that he was unable to think up of the design by himself is ridiculously patronising.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a tad more from the log,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 18:56:36 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i know
[ 18:56:38 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] but who cares
[ 18:56:38 ] [ Forlorn ] dude
[ 18:56:41 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] i mean its an awful game
[ 18:56:42 ] [ Forlorn ] the aliens rape it hard
[ 18:56:46 ] [ Forlorn ] yep
[ 18:56:49 ] [ Forlorn ] and I mean HARD
[ 18:56:57 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] anyways
[ 18:57:01 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] my point is
[ 18:57:08 ] [ Forlorn ] i played in the UGL combat finals... ugh
[ 18:57:10 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] when flayra is patching it
[ 18:57:14 ] [ Forlorn ] yes?
[ 18:57:17 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] we will usually talk on the phone for a few hours
[ 18:57:23 ] [ Forlorn ] ah k
[ 18:57:27 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] and he usually listens to me
[ 18:57:33 ] [ Forlorn ] Flayra's a really cool guy
[ 18:57:34 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] 90% of the time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not claiming he made all the changes, but all the balance changes. He seemed sincere enough when talking to Forlorn and HAMBONE wasn't the type to brag. I guess he told my brother what he used to do just because he did not like to keep it totally secret.
And Grendel I am sure you have had plenty of impact upon the game's development process, I never questioned that. But I will give credit where it is due; and I believe HAMBONE was the miricle man when it came to the production of 2.01.
It's too bad my brother never really questioned HAMBONE a lot, he seemed too caught up in the current version and didn't quite realize the implications of what HAMBONE was saying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Addendum: Your choice of redemption methodology (like numerous variants that have been posted over the last 2 years) is vastly superior to the current one we have in place. I would have no problem in it being utilised. I would, however, prefer to see something that either drained resources as a cost of keeping the player alive or prevented the marines from getting RFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I know my proposed solution for redemption may not be the most original, but after looking at the current flaws of redemption my fix or a one similar to it seems ideal.
Also, my solution would keep the marines from getting RFK, it would work as soon as the alien hits 10%. (actually, it might have to be boosted to 15% for the skulk; 10% is 7 hp for the skulk so this means he would die when he is at 10 hp and takes another shot.) The problem with having it drain resources per redemption is that once you take the upgrade, how are you supposed to get rid of it? And redeeming at the cost of resources would never be worth it in the long run.
Hey Maverick:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A truely impressive article, if ever one existed, that could not be any more agreeable with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the read.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, i would wonder if seiging the "trench" of SCs would improve the marine's chances at breaking through... Along with GL spam. The marines never tried it in that last game i played, and i've wondered if it would be efficent at breaking the line. (Think back to WW1. Artillery fired, then footsoldiers marched up - usually in a vain attempt - to finish the job.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could seige the sensory chamber, but realize then you'd be taking a massive investment just to kill ONE chamber. Also, GLs are highly impractical to use against SCs because they come so late into the game; at least 5 minutes if you rush it! The second hive already be going up by then so GLs are an impractical choice.
Although you do bring up an interesting point; the GL is a difficult weapon to use and saps the marine team of direct firepower.
Why does it come so late into the game? It probably should be avalible much sooner than the HMG, it should be avalible around the 2 min mark given it's current usefulness and how underused it is. You only really see them in conjuction with JP or HMG because once higher lifeforms come out, GLs are basically defenseless.
I do have some problems with it. However being inexperienced in the field of NS Match Play I will refrain from most of them and defer to your authority.
I will again state before anything else that I do Not have your experience or probably your expertise, however I do have at least a semblance of a mind.
No, I'm not implying that you do not.
Offhand I kind of like the idea of removing the SoF effect from the towers altogether.
Also, as was said at one point, (and this may be an idea I like even better) possibly the best fix (if one is needed) for the towers may be to cause them to not cloak themselves, that would add even more strategy to an already strategic system, and make them less common to find on a map.
Also I wanted to make a comment:
"You should really check it if you are in the majority or not, as that is what makes or breaks any interpretation as valid."
Off-topic, but that's not true at all. Interpretations are valid based on evidence, research, and piecing-together of what was. If you argue that sociology defines proper science (in the field of research) then you're effectively saying that I can make something true because I feel like it's true. I'm sure you appreciate that as nonsense.
Probably the main gameplay-aspect of this post is in reply to your idea for redemption. It seems ridiculous, though maybe I'm missing something. You are saying that (barring exceptional mismatches, like shotguns on skulks) every alien would always have an extra life every time.
You can go ahead and refute that.
And no, you wouldnt have had the right to do so, had I not given it. =P
I would say a decent fix is to either create a non-conditional extra life that does not give out resources to rines, but still costs, and can be bought any amount of times, (but only if you don't have it).
Also if you did your fix to redemption, I would say that there would HAVE to be a timer involved, so say at 20% hp (just an example) you start a 3 second (again, just an example) timer that would, upon finishing, teleport you to base.
Those are my thoughts.
Second, if they go Focus, then they either have to hide near SC, or do conventional skulk ambushing. If you avoid the SC, you force them to engage on your terms. If they drop SC in their general hive area, then you can avoid that hive and stay on the periphery and wait for them to uncloak. If they rush out and drop SC as far from the hive as possible, then you need only steamroll past the SC before you find a nice open hive.
If they all gorge and all drop SC at various locations, chances are you should get to kill 1 or 2 of them, which sets them back a bit. SC networks dont suddenly sprout up, and to drop them means sacrificing a bit of time on RTs. Assuming a balanced spread of RT dropping and chamber dropping, you should be able to kill a few gorges or get to an unoccupied hive in order to prevent alien expansion.
Buggy - have you tried any of the things which you say can't be tried?
The focus on an SC game is more about dealing with aliens in nonSC areas. They cant drop SC everywhere, there has to be a balance between SC and RT. The marines biggest friend is TIME. With time comes armour upgrades, and SCAN. A focus fade isn't pretty, but a one hive focus fade is a lot nicer than a two hive focus fade with celerity. What about a strat that revolves around taking a hive and simply stalemating aliens before a push? If all they have is SC, then ping and teched up rines are going to do a very good job. Stalemating forces them to hold position or find a way to sneak more SC up to break the stalemate.
If you stalemate them near their hive then they can't run off to cap/kill nodes, and they cant run off to MS to force a marine withdrawal. Both sides just wait it out. Meantime some marine can be bagging free nodes in hive locations. You can push for MT and A3 and walk into the SC areas for a methodical scouring, or you can rush HA for a weldertrain, or rush JPs and try for mobility.
I'm not going to pick holes in your strat, because its straightforward and a completely fair breakdown of Tanith's key areas. I'm just saying that perhaps people should be trying something radical such as avoiding the enemy's strength and hitting him where he's weak. If they don't get a second hive then the alien game is somewhat slowed. Yes they can go for higher evos but at least you know what to expect.
I can only make so many suggestions because on the pub circuit you can generally rely on aliens screwing up. You may feel free to elaborate on counters to counters, but the core of my post is this:
<b>Has anyone tried something radically different to the usual style?</b>
Sensory is a radically different chamber to DC and MC, perhaps it requires a radical solution? Hit the enemy at their weakness.
The final and most obvious suggestion is that some older maps may not be balanced to take advantage of changes in abilities. If the problem is restricted to certain maps, perhaps that is the flaw.
EDIT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
[ 18:54:49 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] youre sounding antagonistic im not trying to brag or anything
[ 18:55:01 ] [ HAMBONE`work ] if i was trying to brag this would be common knowledge which it isnt
[ 18:55:20 ] [ Forlorn ] No
[ 18:55:22 ] [ Forlorn ] I'm not like that
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome, eh? Getting someone to privately admit to something, then slapping it up on a forum for all to see as ammo in some discussion? Laughable.
I studied genetics and virology for some 10 years, so let me enlighten you on evolution. Monocultures die. Using the same 3 strats is all well and good, but when the game suddenly changes, people should start looking at new strats. Just because I can use a rock to smash a skull doesn't mean I think a rock is capable of taking out a tank. Evolution works by doing lots of stupid things, and the most successful stupid thing is the one that keeps living. Consider the modern world, where many niche organisms are become extinct because they simply cannot adapt.
If players are sticking to "tried and true" strats, then the problem is that their old strats do not take into account new changes. If all modern clans are relying on some ancestor comm who wrote the book on strategy in 1.04, it stands to reason that in 3.0 these strats are not going to work as well.
Fades are good, people have learned to accept this and developed innovative counters to them - from outteching them to bodyblocking fleeing fades. Bodyblocking being the most "out there" counter to fades.. its counterintuitive but works surprisingly well.
So why not with SC? Why not try odd stuff as a counter?
I note you find confusion with my analysis of second hive combinations SC DC at second hive means constant alien aggression and active response to any marine, because you do not have the luxury of MCing from hive to hive. SC MC means you can respond quickly, but lack real survivability outside your "safe zones".
So a marine team can try to rapidly attack SC DC aliens in hopes of finding a chink in the armour, and a marine team can use brute force and ignorance to roll through SC MC aliens.
I read your example of a siege strat. I would highlight it as an example of how people are sticking to outdated play styles and simply not trying anything new. A pure marine rush would have severely hamstrung the hive, caused panic in the alien team, and if not outright kill the hive would certainly take it to at least half health which means aliens have to stay and guard/heal it. A solid rush means no gorge has time to egg on top of the hive, and if you're lucky you can have the hive down before people respond and MC in. Brute force and ignorance, works surprisingly well now.
You could go for combined arms and both siege AND rush in, which means aliens can either kill your rines or kill the siege, but thats a side topic.
The problem with a clan atmosphere where everyone is using the same old strat, which has never failed, is that sooner or later it WILL fail, and if noone is there to create a new strat, things will go to pieces. Different people join clans, but if they dont comm then who is to implement their radical strat? Who would even listen to their strat? Suppose the leader or regular comms say "thats a stupid nub strat" and promptly ignore it from that point on?
I speak with authority from my own 2 decades of tabletop gaming. It was a wise player who kept an eye on the new guys. With each version change, it was the new guys who found the killer strat. Why? INEXPERIENCE. Older players wouldn't try odd strats because "they never worked before".. but the rules changes made them viable. So why shouldn't top tier players try really really out there strats in order to see if they can get an edge? Its how evolution works, its how most gamers get an edge. You don't bang your head off a brick wall because you could break through a paper one - the trick is to look for ways around the problem.
In my pub, its usually chaotic at certain times. But during the chaos you see a hell of a lot more strats attempted than anything clan standard. There are some accepted openings, but from that point on anything goes. And sometimes they stumble upon a new strat that works and works well. Most siege spots are found by trial and error, then siezed upon by other players in the know. Relocations (more of a pub thing) have turned up lots of interesting and evil places which are good to lockdown. You get more results from chaos than from order.
Consider your rabbit in Oz. Rabbit could be SC, clan groups could be Oz. Noone expected the SC, so it steamrolls over the indigenous life. Interestingly the Oz response was to try and exterminate the rabbit.... isnt this also the case here? Lets exterminate the evil SC?
Even better, the rabbit dominated Oz wildlife because Oz wildlife was extremely inbred and STAGNANT. Its like Madagascar. Some really pretty wildlife, but they're all going to be toast if anything new arrives. Big fish in little ponds. Why are viruses still around? They adapt to counter everything thrown at them. Bigger animals cant do that, because they dont evolve fast enough.
The solution to SC could be by doing something wholly different and radical in terms of comm strats.
Anyhow, rambling too much, take home message is this -
<b>Try what would appear to be really dumb strats (eg locking hives instead of res)
If its just limited to 3 maps, consider that its more a map flaw than a chamber flaw
</b>
Time for dinner.
EVEN MORE EDIT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ 18:57:33 ] [ Forlorn ] Flayra's a really cool guy
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha.. hahahahaha...... HAHAHAHAHA...
This is where you're wrong. In TIME, the khaara gets lvl 3 upgrades. In TIME, the khaara get a lerk. In TIME, the khaara get fades. In TIME, the khaara get a second hive.
In TIME, marines get slaughtered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Awesome, eh? Getting someone to privately admit to something, then slapping it up on a forum for all to see as ammo in some discussion? Laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, Forlorn didn't get him to admit anything. That discussion happened almost a year ago. I thought you could have taken my word for it, but here's a screenshot from Forlorn's computer just to show you I'm not a dishonest person.
<a href='http://img18.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img18ℑ=hambonedate5ke.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img18.exs.cx/img18/7202/hambonedate5ke.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
And no, nothing is photoshopped and no dates have been altered. I can't prove it to you, but like I said, I'm not a dishonest person. If choose not to, there's nothing more I can tell you other than you like to rely dishonesty as a form of defense. HAMBONE just randomally came up to Forlorn one evening and decided to spill his guts. Trust me, the log is a lot longer than what I posted but again enough of HAMBONE, my intent was not to drag him into the topic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone tried something radically different to the usual style?
Sensory is a radically different chamber to DC and MC, perhaps it requires a radical solution? Hit the enemy at their weakness.
The final and most obvious suggestion is that some older maps may not be balanced to take advantage of changes in abilities. If the problem is restricted to certain maps, perhaps that is the flaw.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, radical things have been tried, and they have failed. Failed for a very good reason, it's called chamber imbalance.
Like I already stated, clan play takes all playstyles and the best ones surrive.
The map has played fine for about... 2.5 years now, and you think it's a map flaw? It really sounds to me you have some kind of emotional bias of making the sensory chamber better at any cost.
Unless you have a reason, I'm not sure I understand why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I studied genetics and virology for some 10 years, so let me enlighten you on evolution. Monocultures die. Using the same 3 strats is all well and good, but when the game suddenly changes, people should start looking at new strats. Just because I can use a rock to smash a skull doesn't mean I think a rock is capable of taking out a tank. Evolution works by doing lots of stupid things, and the most successful stupid thing is the one that keeps living. Consider the modern world, where many niche organisms are become extinct because they simply cannot adapt.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't studied evolution for 10 years, but everything you just said is common sense which is taught in a high school classroom today. Monocultures die, and so do strategies and playstyles. Things that work live on.
And like I already said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If clan players are unwilling to change their ways, then why was it only 2 weeks ago DC the chamber of choice, and today SC? In fact, SC's became the chamber of choice in little under a week since the patch. There were only small changes from b5 to 3.0 final, so it didn't take too much time to adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And like I already said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan play of natural selection indeed follows Darwin’s model, strategies best suited to win survive, whereas ones that do not win, fade out of existence. What strategies have faded out of existence? Those who agree with such linear logic as the above argument displays will never know, because they lack the intrinsic values which make skilled players skilled; the ability to adapt quickly. <b>However, one can ask any clanplayer about failed strategies he has used in the past, he will be able to name countless strategies that made them lose horribly.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So really, I have no idea what you are talking about. Clanplayers try everything, the reason you don't see much of it is because if it doesn't work then they won't use it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with a clan atmosphere where everyone is using the same old strat, which has never failed, is that sooner or later it WILL fail, and if noone is there to create a new strat, things will go to pieces. Different people join clans, but if they dont comm then who is to implement their radical strat? Who would even listen to their strat? Suppose the leader or regular comms say "thats a stupid nub strat" and promptly ignore it from that point on?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, clan players do not use the "same old strat", they use the most effective strategy for the given situation at hand. Furthermore, these strategies can and will fail, but the reason they have continued use is because they have the least chances of failing outside of a players control.
Also, clanplayers do not need to command to try out a strategy. As previously mentioned:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan play revolves around teamwork. Teamwork done through combined attacks, through increased communication, and a plan before the game even starts marks the efficiency of an alien team in clan play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This can be paraphrased into "Teamwork done through combined attacks, through increased communication, and a plan before the game even starts marks the efficiency of a team in clan play." so it's not exclusive to just alien teams in clan play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Consider your rabbit in Oz. Rabbit could be SC, clan groups could be Oz. Noone expected the SC, so it steamrolls over the indigenous life. Interestingly the Oz response was to try and exterminate the rabbit.... isnt this also the case here? Lets exterminate the evil SC?
Even better, the rabbit dominated Oz wildlife because Oz wildlife was extremely inbred and STAGNANT. Its like Madagascar. Some really pretty wildlife, but they're all going to be toast if anything new arrives. Big fish in little ponds. Why are viruses still around? They adapt to counter everything thrown at them. Bigger animals cant do that, because they dont evolve fast enough.
The solution to SC could be by doing something wholly different and radical in terms of comm strats.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No but see, this isn't the real world. This is the developers world, and in this world we can only do what he allows us to do. Therefore no one can make up something totally different beyond the norm, if something comes in and dominates the field it will stay that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ha.. hahahahaha...... HAHAHAHAHA...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was that really nessesary, or does it add to the discussion in any meaningful way?
Harrower:
Thanks for reading and enjoying my paper. I'm glad you liked it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"You should really check it if you are in the majority or not, as that is what makes or breaks any interpretation as valid."
Off-topic, but that's not true at all. Interpretations are valid based on evidence, research, and piecing-together of what was. If you argue that sociology defines proper science (in the field of research) then you're effectively saying that I can make something true because I feel like it's true. I'm sure you appreciate that as nonsense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generally speaking, having the majority's backing is because they agree with one's evidence, research, and piecing-together of what is.
You see, I assume the majority is well educated and fairly rational when considering things, where you seem to assume that the majority is the kind that executed Jesus. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Haha, you shouldn't be so pessimistic when it comes to a video game analysis and the majority who agree with it's interpretation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Probably the main gameplay-aspect of this post is in reply to your idea for redemption. It seems ridiculous, though maybe I'm missing something. You are saying that (barring exceptional mismatches, like shotguns on skulks) every alien would always have an extra life every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Is there something wrong with that? If you think there aren't any downsides, realize that if redemption kicks in always at 15% or 10%, that means you have effectively 10% or 15% less health before you are removed from combat.
Whereas, if you did not have redemption as an upgrade, the alien could remain in combat longer!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also if you did your fix to redemption, I would say that there would HAVE to be a timer involved, so say at 20% hp (just an example) you start a 3 second (again, just an example) timer that would, upon finishing, teleport you to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think there must be a timer involved? If there is a timer involved then it would be useless for skulks.
Godlol:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is this nge talking or is it forlorn talking threw his brothers computer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do people keep assuming I am Forlorn? Is he the only one allowed to make large posts on these forums? Again, there's a reason he's perma banned and I'm not.
Tjosan:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is where you're wrong. In TIME, the khaara gets lvl 3 upgrades. In TIME, the khaara get a lerk. In TIME, the khaara get fades. In TIME, the khaara get a second hive.
In TIME, marines get slaughtered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you completely, and because I hate retyping myself,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game revolves around the fact that aliens are weak and fast; enabling them to perform hit and runs, meanwhile marines are powerful, slow, and expend their firepower relatively quickly; promoting a mentality to destroy a target as fast as possible. This is easily seen in game, where if a fight goes on too long, aliens almost always win. Marines generally need to flatten the aliens as fast as possible else they are risking it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->