Necrosis, i'm sorry, but marines don't have time. Like Tjosan said, in time, aliens get stronger. Marines <b>have</b> to get res towers down. As it is, they're unable to do so because of fort sc being in the way.
If you'd read more of my post, you'd see that fades are your only real worry. On only 1 hive, with SC first, you only have to really worry about focus fades and/or the SC network getting too close to MS or your locked down hives.
Focus, with TIME, becomes increasingly pointless. Read my list of counters to focus, all achieveable with TIME. At most you might see a one hive SC onos, but I don't put much money on it saving a game.
Buggy -
I agree, aliens over time will generally win. But on only one hive, with only SC, aliens are going to suffer over time. Focus loses its one/two hit kill. SOF only tells you you're about to be massively buttraped. Cloaking only lets you get one bite in before you get hamburgered.
With MC, you can mc rush a hive up. With DC you can steamroll in, get the hive building, hide on it then healspam it till it arrives.
With SC, you're screwed. Marines always notice a building hive, and you need to make sure its under the SC net otherwise marines can just camp it and mow down anything incoming.
MC/DC give you some chance as time goes on. MC allows rushing, DC at least helps to counter upgraded guns. SC doesn't counter guns, SCAN negates it, and focus doesn't get any more powerful, in fact it gets worse. In an SC game, time is your friend.
I value your opinion Buggy, so if you've tried out really silly strats like stalling aliens, or locking down their other hives, or just electrifying anything you cap, then feel free to dissect my comments with impunity..... its just that noone really seems to be properly trying dumb strats to find a real counter. I just find it odd.
NGE -
April fools day?
Yes, it appears he was egged into making a comment, apparently in private, which has now been made public for whatever reason. TBH intepretation of fragments of the log can easily be turned one way or another. To me, it looks like HAMBONE has been fed in order to get info on the dev process out of him. Further, in your screen cap, it looks like an awful lot of conversations have been stored for this sort of thing.
Thats what I find worrying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The map has played fine for about... 2.5 years now, and you think it's a map flaw? It really sounds to me you have some kind of emotional bias of making the sensory chamber better at any cost. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you considered how the newer maps fit in? In addition, consider how the maps have been fixed to accomodate the Onos. By my thinking, the stuck issues were a map problem, not an Onos problem.
When I was a baby I probably thought it was ok to wet my nappy, but there comes a time where things change and the old method doesn't cut it anymore. If the problem only lies with a few older maps, it stands to reason that map problems should be considered. If you wore the same clothes every from birth, and one day they rip because they can stretch no longer.... do you buy new clothes or just say "hey those clothes were fine for 6 years, this is obviously not a clothes problem". Things change, strats have to be reevaluated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First, clan players do not use the "same old strat", they use the most effective strategy for the given situation at hand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is, in effect, the same old strat. Find the one that works, stick to it like glue, resist all attempts to change the game to invalidate that strat. Having sat through a lot of demos (I like to pick up tips from demos) you can see some pretty formulaic play. Back in 2.0 the chambers were virtually all identical, but in 3.0 you have this one chamber with a radical playstyle. Disaster! The chamber must be bugged!
Its not just the chamber, but its a matter of changing strats, examining the map, seeing how people use and counter it, many factors.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, clanplayers do not need to command to try out a strategy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats some pretty awesome stuff if you can field test an entire UNTESTED strategy inside your head. I've played a lot of stuff over two decades, and even then I couldn't tell you the EXACT outcome of a totally new strat. I could give an educated guess, but educated guesses dont mean squat when you toss player skill and human ingenuity into the mix.
If people are doing strats in their head, and discarding them without actually field testing them.... again, perhaps the solution lies in one of the mentally discarded strats.
You skimmed over the monoculture post. Think it through again. Monocultures take only the best too.. but a time comes when something confronts them that they are so far removed from that they simply CANNOT counter it, and must die. A truly successful species keeps all these little failures going in the hope that one day they become useful. Diversity wins.
Sticking to the same map strat, regardless of chamber, is odd. Odd and suicidal if you ask me. Running games ONLY IN ONE'S HEAD is also odd. You learn very little from mental simulations, and you can't truly predict how a team of 6 people will react. Whenever I'm cranking out a new strat, I make paper counters and I dry run it a few times to check for holes.
People ignore dumdum strats and do not revisit them. There are a lot of things which have drifted out of play since 1.04, and few if any have been revisited in 3.0
Stagnation. People limit their strats because hey, if it didn't work in 1.04, its not going to work now. Problem is, with each change comes new possibilities, and running mental simulations on outdated knowledge is a pretty poor way to solve new problems. You have to get your hands dirty.
If someone came up and said "yes, I have tried every strat, I have locked down hives, I have electrified nodes, I have knife rushed the enemy, I've tried flashlight semaphore" then I'd be more inclined to validate their viewpoint. But the fact is that lots of out there stuff simply hasn't been tried.
I mean, lets bust out the ooooooooold version of Hera and run through it. The map was colossal, and vent hive a nightmare for marines. If you ran it through today's game, there'd be a slaughter. Does that mean 3.0 needs to be changed, or does it mean the map's outdated.
If the SC problem only happens on a certain few maps, then I'm going to say its probably map related. If SC is only a problem for clan play, then chances are its a clan related issue. SC is radically different from MC and DC, and has to be countered as such. There's not much difference between MC and DC in terms of openings and counters anyhow. SC is a huge departure, so strats are going to have to be similarly distanced.
From 2.0 to 3.0 we've seen sieging radically altered so that its not as much of a game ender. The PG rush is largely negated by SC if you have an observant alien team. You can't count on redemption to save a gorge. SC fails when aliens are outside the SC range. Every SC that the aliens have to drop is 10 res that was better spent elsewhere. It also means they have to stay gorge, otherwise its 20 res a pop. You NEED to be comprehensive with the SC cover because otherwise focus skulks are going to get shot to hell. Second, you need to make sure rines don't get a hive, because your second chamber is either going to leave you fragile, or limit your mobility.
The SC first game is going to run longer than most, because the first part of winning is avoiding the SC and getting res to counter. As long as aliens are kept to one hive, the biggest worry is a focus fade. Thats no small thing, but at least you know what to expect. Armour upgrades soon negate focus, and then its a shooting gallery because SCAN uncloaks the lurkers, and with no way to really heal in the field (innate regen isn't amazing) the aliens get pushed back to their hive, which is again easily taken down because it lacks DC or adren gorges. SC is just a little longer, a more roundabout counter, you can't just barge in headlong and hope you can beat the aliens with skill and medspam.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Necrosis, have you played a 3.0 pcw? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you are well aware, I am not a part of the clan scene. However, I practice my tabletop gaming and counters (with every new release and every new enemy army), I practice Armada II against a variety of AIs and enemy races, I try to dry run anything I intend to compete at. Sheer bitter experience is the best way to learn, imho, and its never failed me yet.
I would be concerned about any competitive person or group which outright refuses to physically practice and experiment with unconventional strats. Certainly in a clan environment (or in my case a gaming club environment) you can be assured of decent player skill, people who will follow orders, and people willing to help try out new strats for the good of the team. Even dumdum pubber strats just to see how "valid" they are. When some kid tells me about his new tabletop strat, I like to bust out pen and paper and see how good it is, how it compares to my tried and tested strat, and how I have to counter.
If someone said to me they just ignore the strat because they tried it x years ago, and it didn't work then, then I consider them closeminded. Rules change, strats can change value too.
If someone said they dont need to try it out, because they run it in their head, then I just laugh at them. Mental arithmetic doesnt match up to genuine PTing. You have to physically try it out to ascertain its worth.
So anyone saying they ignore new strats, don't practice, don't listen to the new guys, I find them just plain ridiculous. How are you meant to learn and improve if you're just devoted to honing the same old strat. Have to adapt to survive.
I've spent a good bit of time with dedicated players (clanners, gamers, enthusiasts, you call them what you like) and its the great ones who tinker with real idiotic strats. They're on another plane of thought entirely. These are the guys who come up things like expanding soviet Red Alert bases by building/recycling dog kennels. The ones who came up with body blocking. The ones who dropped packs to see if the hive was up.
You HAVE to try out wacky new strats if you want to be top of your game. You do NOT cling to 2 and a half year old strats "because they've always worked". Someone's going to catch on to countering SC, and when they do they're going to fly up the rankings. Right now if I was in a clan, I'd be pulling out all the stops trying nub strats to beat SC. Lockdowns, electricity, tfacs in base, you name it I'd be trying it all, just to see what cracks the nut. Right now, I dont see any evidence to say this has been done. I just see comparisions to old betas, I see comparisons to MC/DC (two chambers which are almost identical at game start, making them so much easier to counter), people running mental simulations, you name it, but I've yet to see someone say "I have tried the following nub strats. <b>Nothing</b> has worked from any of them".
You know, decent pubbers are beating other decent pubbers by nub strats like a hive lock, or garrisoning up at areas and shooting aliens down, or by electrifying everything (focus skulks cant do much). Granted this doesn't cut it in clan play, but these things need to be genuinely experimented with, distilled, and put towards a clan optimised solution.
I would not believe that in the space of 1-2 weeks anyone could experiment with all the nubby strats. You'd need 12 people with a lot of free time and ideas. Start trying the dumb strats. Keep what works. Focus only on SC, and ignore the other two chambers. When you have counters that work, try and meld them with DC/MC play. First clan to do it is going to get a big advantage over the others, and 2 months later everyone will be copying that play. Its the way things are. Its how it worked for SC, WC, A2, Dune, you name it.
Well said, Necrosis. I remember in b5, I heard of a couple clans who got huge upsets by focus rushing, even though the DC was the automatic first chamber. I'd like to see one of the top clans break out TFs or electrification against SCs in their next match, just to see what would happen. At the very least, it would make an interesting demo.
I still hate sensories at hive 1 but that's because I can't lerk with the stupid things. Movements are 10x better, but with sensories at hive 2 it's gee gee marines.
remember that clans above all must <i>innovate</i> to survive. I am surprised people do not realize this. They are pointing out general areas which might or might not work, not realizing that it is part of the nature of being a competitive clan to brainstorm such ideas constantly. Eventually strategies may stabilize but in order to get there, an evolution of sorts happens, through constant <i>innovation</i>
Clans are the best suited to evolving, being the most adaptable. Ideally there exists teamwork and innovative commanders, and it is the best amongst these that come out on top. All must compete against each other; any deficiencies will be weeded out. Contrast with pub commanders whose marines do not have teamwork they can trust, who is not forced to carefully think out the situation, whose abilities are not tested in competition.
If you have not played a pcw then how can you possibly argue about the effectiveness of SC? Please come back later when you have the experience that the people you're arguing do.
<!--QuoteBegin-hawthorne+Mar 17 2005, 06:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (hawthorne @ Mar 17 2005, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->huge post. i read one thing at the end - very true:
clanners, for the most part, are bad at new strategies. its basically mimick what the top 2 teams are doing and then try to get better at it.
in this way, clanners are also very narrowminded<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generalisations are always wrong <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The ability to adept a new mechanics is a skill like aiming and yes competitive players can easy get trapped using their usual tactics in a new environment.
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 17 2005, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 17 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hear throwing a hand grenade into a room where you think there is a cloaked object counters sensory licketysplit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> On lunixmonster we recearch hand grenades when the game is over and the marines have no chance of winning anyways. That is how much a waste of res they are. Recearching hand nades is a step below an all out GL rush (no HMGs or shotties, just GLs).
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 18 2005, 04:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 18 2005, 04:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 17 2005, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 17 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hear throwing a hand grenade into a room where you think there is a cloaked object counters sensory licketysplit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On lunixmonster we recearch hand grenades when the game is over and the marines have no chance of winning anyways. That is how much a waste of res they are. Recearching hand nades is a step below an all out GL rush (no HMGs or shotties, just GLs). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> u didnt get it, haha.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
He's mocking me for posting this <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89725' target='_blank'>tissue of lies.</a>
I guess I just find it easier to make use of grenades as I used to be a very decent DoD player. *shrug*
I'm not suggesting they rock, or that they are more valuable than armour upgrades, or that they own all kharaa in a ten foot radius as soon as they hear the grenade primed. I may even have overstated their usage. Why?
Ponder the following:
<b>Features in games that don't get used, don't get improved.</b>
Examples? Don't mind if I do. Redemption, Cat Packs, Electricity, Grenades and Turrets. When people do start using them, then people start providing feedback. Those features are then refined based on feedback.
The whole "it sucks don't use it" philosophy is great and all, but it's not really productive to improving gameplay.
It might be a good idea to have some statistics. Alien Marine wins % as Blizzard does. At least you can extract clan games from the tournaments databases to show where things have to be changed and to give the whole discussion a better basis. If you are involved in a game, the perspective isn't always too good for general analyses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Examples? Don't mind if I do. Redemption, Cat Packs, Electricity, Grenades and Turrets. When people do start using them, then people start providing feedback. Those features are then refined based on feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm well my clan (obscure) had tried catpack rushes in beta5, they work fairly well for knifing lerks and to a lesser extent nodes however this does not reconpence their way too expensive cost...im not even sure making them 3 res is enough...in final with the sc rushes (at least that i know of) that a1 is crucial and after that point there is really no reason or res to spend on catpacks.
Things are tried but then found nearly pointless (though a certain lerk kill was pretty funny).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 02:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 02:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As you are well aware, I am not a part of the clan scene. However, I practice my tabletop gaming and counters (with every new release and every new enemy army), I practice Armada II against a variety of AIs and enemy races, I try to dry run anything I intend to compete at. Sheer bitter experience is the best way to learn, imho, and its never failed me yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that you're arguing that we should try new things, when you haven't even played a single competitive game on this version is so ironic that I feel my head dislodging just by thinking about it.
The fact that you're sitting there in your chair furiously typing and arguing about a topic you clearly have no experience with, or know anything about hopefully indicates to everyone that ignoring whatever you say might be for the best.
There are tactics that you can look at in a split second and know that wont work. The more experience you have, the more you know how the game works, the more you know how to recognize these types of strategies. You've never played competitive, you have no experience with competitive, how can you even begin to argue your opinion when you don't even know what you're talking about?!
Come back when you're a little more wet behind your ears, and I might care enough to argue against your opinions, which will hopefully have more merit to them. Clan play doesn't work the same way publics do, and until you try it, you're never going to know what we're talking about.
fana, necrosis does this in pretty much every thread--it's hilarious.
He acts like he knows anything then counters what you said by quoting 4 words at a time. It's AWESOME. Oh yeah, then the devs give him a forum title because he's so smart! What a sad sad world we live in <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To anyone thinking clanners don't adapt: the clanscene has been using DCs and MCs a lot for awhile now (whereas it used to be DC first 90%)... don't say they don't try new things. Oh yeah and with b6 lots of people are using SC... they will use whatever is best.
Ben, I don't really care how people run their practice wars, I'm just telling you from experience that if you want to learn things, you have to try things. Doing the same old same old over and over just gets you in a rut.
Second, its clear noone is really seriously tinkering with dumb strats because noone has even mentioned the tiniest bit about a possible counter. Its all flat refusal. I don't see one comment along the lines of "We practiced the past week trying electrification, it sort of worked up until they had fades". People have to experiment before they can write something off.
Have you tried anything new and odd in your pcw's Ben? Mine strat recently? Electrification spam? Catpacks and a shotgun rush? Do tell me.
For a bunch of allegedly skilled players, you act like a bunch of screaming chimpanzees sometimes, throwing crap everywhere. Jumping on Grendel, jumping on each other, jumping on people who havent done x y or z. No wonder you keep losing to such a simple strat. I thought you guys actually experimented with "out there" strats in order to gain an edge.
I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened that you just use the same strat over and over, and throw monkey fits over anyone who dares transgress against the Holy Strat.
Fanatic, Ben, I may not spend my precious hours of life rehearsing the same game over and over, but I can tell you that during my two decades of competitive tabletop gaming I did very much practise. Trying new strats, trying odd strats, trying strats where I deliberately started off in a weaker position just to see how I could salvage the game.
And for all my practice, I ended up good enough to be banned from competing at my local store. Now, you can do the chimp thing and say I have "no experience", but the fact is I <b>do</b> have experience. My experience made me win, and made me keep winning.
If your practice does not take into account "worst case" scenarios, or doesn't experiment with odd strats, then sooner or later your little monkey tribe is going to be flattened by a clan who found out the little loophole in a certain strat. BM did some wacky stuff in their time, there are clans who did the focus/cloak rush, there are clans that used alien classes in counterintuitive ways.
Or do you think "mine ladders" just suddenly appeared from the ether?
I am giving you some hard learned tips on how to get on top of your opponents. You can hoot and holler and say "ogm you know noooootheeeng" but hey, I got to the top of my game, so it worked for me. Again, I ask you to find anyone in any sort of tactical gaming community to point out the big winners. You'll find they're the people with the wit and creativity to do the odd strats. They dont sit all day honing one strat over and over. They're tinkerers.
Consider chess. Why do you think certain gambits and openings are referred to by specific names? Someone came up with it, thrashed people for a while, others adopted it, and eventually it became wholly accepted.
NS is no different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are tactics that you can look at in a split second and know that wont work <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rubbish. You can GUESSTIMATE, but you will NEVER know until you try. Two decades experience, trust me on this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've never played competitive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive NS? No, I got bored of competitive play some time ago. I think it was the long unbroken chain of victories that did it. There's bigger things in life. But hey, if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking.
Anyone with any drive to succeed knows they have to experiment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Come back when you're a little more wet behind your ears, and I might care enough to argue against your opinions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funniest thing ever. When you're ready to listen to someone with a personal 20yr long run of undefeated gaming, you come back. When you're ready to listen to the people who top the SC ladders, you crawl back here. When you're ready to listen to people who (through various experimental ventures) will earn more than you will ever hope to dream of, then you come begging back here on your belly. If you're all so closeminded as to NEVER try a new strat, then its no wonder you're all losing and losing badly. You're not willing to try grenades, suggested by someone with more NS experience than me? Fine. You're willing to ignore the doctrine which is universal to the best strategy gamers? Fine. It just makes you look all the more immature.
All strat games are fundamentally identical, and its the gamblers who ultimately top the tables. You might catch up in a few years, once people see the strat enough. Then you can copy it and try to hone it while the top boys move on to finding better, newer strats.
Clanners, mediocre clanners, will just copy. Your average pubber will just copy. The top clans are the ones that innovate, the top players the ones who experiment to get the best.
Insecure little children lock themselves in ivory towers and ignore the wisdom of people with far more experience than they'll ever have. You baby chimps carry on with hooting and hollering, the rest of us will just get to the task of breaking SC. Then you can come for the scraps and try to copy it.
Come on kids, lets have it. <b>Who here thinks the most successful strategists just copy other strategists?</b> You have to innovate, rather than cry about your uberstrat being broken. A child could see that SC is totally different to both MC and DC. A simpleton could suggest that the counter would be equally radically different from the expected counter. Have any of you even tried? No, you just game it in your heads. How utterly laughable.
Nad, you're such hot stuff, which counters have you tried to SC first?
Its funny, I am reminded of Gorman from Aliens
"38.... simulated"
Yeah, he did really well for himself, hahahahahahaha. You need hard experience, not number crunching in your head. But as I say, what would I know, I only have a 20yr unbroken string of tactical victories. If Kasparov came in here and made suggestions using chess as a foundation, you infants would probably tell him to play NS more because you do all your strats in your head. Hahaha, classic.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 03:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ben, I don't really care how people run their practice wars, I'm just telling you from experience that if you want to learn things, you have to try things. Doing the same old same old over and over just gets you in a rut.
Second, its clear noone is really seriously tinkering with dumb strats because noone has even mentioned the tiniest bit about a possible counter. Its all flat refusal. I don't see one comment along the lines of "We practiced the past week trying electrification, it sort of worked up until they had fades". People have to experiment before they can write something off.
Have you tried anything new and odd in your pcw's Ben? Mine strat recently? Electrification spam? Catpacks and a shotgun rush? Do tell me.
For a bunch of allegedly skilled players, you act like a bunch of screaming chimpanzees sometimes, throwing crap everywhere. Jumping on Grendel, jumping on each other, jumping on people who havent done x y or z. No wonder you keep losing to such a simple strat. I thought you guys actually experimented with "out there" strats in order to gain an edge.
I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened that you just use the same strat over and over, and throw monkey fits over anyone who dares transgress against the Holy Strat.
Fanatic, Ben, I may not spend my precious hours of life rehearsing the same game over and over, but I can tell you that during my two decades of competitive tabletop gaming I did very much practise. Trying new strats, trying odd strats, trying strats where I deliberately started off in a weaker position just to see how I could salvage the game.
And for all my practice, I ended up good enough to be banned from competing at my local store. Now, you can do the chimp thing and say I have "no experience", but the fact is I <b>do</b> have experience. My experience made me win, and made me keep winning.
If your practice does not take into account "worst case" scenarios, or doesn't experiment with odd strats, then sooner or later your little monkey tribe is going to be flattened by a clan who found out the little loophole in a certain strat. BM did some wacky stuff in their time, there are clans who did the focus/cloak rush, there are clans that used alien classes in counterintuitive ways.
Or do you think "mine ladders" just suddenly appeared from the ether?
I am giving you some hard learned tips on how to get on top of your opponents. You can hoot and holler and say "ogm you know noooootheeeng" but hey, I got to the top of my game, so it worked for me. Again, I ask you to find anyone in any sort of tactical gaming community to point out the big winners. You'll find they're the people with the wit and creativity to do the odd strats. They dont sit all day honing one strat over and over. They're tinkerers.
Consider chess. Why do you think certain gambits and openings are referred to by specific names? Someone came up with it, thrashed people for a while, others adopted it, and eventually it became wholly accepted.
NS is no different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are tactics that you can look at in a split second and know that wont work <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rubbish. You can GUESSTIMATE, but you will NEVER know until you try. Two decades experience, trust me on this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've never played competitive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive NS? No, I got bored of competitive play some time ago. I think it was the long unbroken chain of victories that did it. There's bigger things in life. But hey, if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking.
Anyone with any drive to succeed knows they have to experiment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Come back when you're a little more wet behind your ears, and I might care enough to argue against your opinions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funniest thing ever. When you're ready to listen to someone with a personal 20yr long run of undefeated gaming, you come back. When you're ready to listen to the people who top the SC ladders, you crawl back here. When you're ready to listen to people who (through various experimental ventures) will earn more than you will ever hope to dream of, then you come begging back here on your belly. If you're all so closeminded as to NEVER try a new strat, then its no wonder you're all losing and losing badly. You're not willing to try grenades, suggested by someone with more NS experience than me? Fine. You're willing to ignore the doctrine which is universal to the best strategy gamers? Fine. It just makes you look all the more immature.
All strat games are fundamentally identical, and its the gamblers who ultimately top the tables. You might catch up in a few years, once people see the strat enough. Then you can copy it and try to hone it while the top boys move on to finding better, newer strats.
Clanners, mediocre clanners, will just copy. Your average pubber will just copy. The top clans are the ones that innovate, the top players the ones who experiment to get the best.
Insecure little children lock themselves in ivory towers and ignore the wisdom of people with far more experience than they'll ever have. You baby chimps carry on with hooting and hollering, the rest of us will just get to the task of breaking SC. Then you can come for the scraps and try to copy it.
Come on kids, lets have it. <b>Who here thinks the most successful strategists just copy other strategists?</b> You have to innovate, rather than cry about your uberstrat being broken. A child could see that SC is totally different to both MC and DC. A simpleton could suggest that the counter would be equally radically different from the expected counter. Have any of you even tried? No, you just game it in your heads. How utterly laughable.
Nad, you're such hot stuff, which counters have you tried to SC first?
Its funny, I am reminded of Gorman from Aliens
"38.... simulated"
Yeah, he did really well for himself, hahahahahahaha. You need hard experience, not number crunching in your head. But as I say, what would I know, I only have a 20yr unbroken string of tactical victories. If Kasparov came in here and made suggestions using chess as a foundation, you infants would probably tell him to play NS more because you do all your strats in your head. Hahaha, classic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU ARE CLEVER!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, it appears he was egged into making a comment, apparently in private, which has now been made public for whatever reason. TBH intepretation of fragments of the log can easily be turned one way or another. To me, it looks like HAMBONE has been fed in order to get info on the dev process out of him. Further, in your screen cap, it looks like an awful lot of conversations have been stored for this sort of thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it disturbing how distrustful you are of me. First off, the log is unedited, and second, I do not take anything out of context, third, he was not egged on into making any comment, if you would please post where he is encouraged to say something then please point it out now. Fourth, there are so many of these logs stored because <b>it is an automatic feature of mIRC</b>. Just go into your options and it automatically logs any conversation you have. By the way, I'm not the only person who stores logs. Just because Forlorn happened to receive a lot of attention back in the day does not mean you should be suspicious, or dare say, jealous of it.
It has been made public, just to prove without a doubt that the incredible balance of 2.01 was a product of HAMBONE, a top clanner of the time who understood the game and received a lot of feedback from other clanners. He then took this input to Flayra who then changed the game.
BTW NGE just so you know theres no 8000 word minimum for new threds <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-comrade+Mar 18 2005, 02:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Mar 18 2005, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but people have tried new strats in their gameplay <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What strats have they tried? Who are 'they'?
How well did the strats work? What were their weak points and strong points?
Were the failed strats analyzed, changed and retested?
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Mar 18 2005, 03:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Mar 18 2005, 03:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-comrade+Mar 18 2005, 02:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Mar 18 2005, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but people have tried new strats in their gameplay <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What strats have they tried? Who are 'they'?
How well did the strats work?
Were the failed strats analyzed, changed and retested?
Against whom were these strats run?
Do you have demos of these strats being tested? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU ARE CLEVER
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 03:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Competitive NS? No, I got bored of competitive play some time ago. I think it was the long unbroken chain of victories that did it. There's bigger things in life. But hey, if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, what clans were you in? I don't ever remember you in a super uber clan that had a 'long unbroken chain of victories.' Perhaps you and your fellow pubbers could make a clan, join CAL and show us how to play? Please I'd love to see it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Put up or shut up please, seriously. I know you're gonna reply mocking me because I'm such a **** for actually asking you to prove what you said ("omg, you're so childish asking for challenges! we aren't in 5th grade anymore!" <-- go ahead just copy that, please). I'm sorry but you can't just assert that you've dominated clanplay (when I, and I doubt anyone else ever even remembers you being in a clan) then not back it up.
If you ignore this or mock me, (LIKE I SAID. HELLO PLEASE DONT JUST QUOTE ONE SENTENCE OF THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE) I'll assume you were just lying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nad, you're such hot stuff, which counters have you tried to SC first?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lots of stuff. Armor, Proto, lockdowns, early obs, early shotties, uhm... lots of others, I can't remember all of them to be honest. SC is too strong early game. Not to mention, it's just plain NOT FUN to play against cloaking.
Ok, this is the part where Necrosis replies, quotes like one or two sentences out of the ~15 I wrote and makes a witty/sarcastic/mocking comment. You own, Necrosis. Oh yeah, and don't forget to call me a child for asking you to back up your boasting.
Edit: okay, I just reread it and I guess Necrosis was talking about his competetive tabletop gaming experiences. Wow. Clearly him owning at Warhammer 40k makes him the guru of NS strats. Teach us, oh intelligent one.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2005
What the cheese? Sorry to bust you bubble here, but whatever merits you may have in table top gaming applies ****all to NS competitive. Even after it should be clear to you that you're speaking to people with far more experience and skill than you could ever hope to accumulate in this game, you still refuse to budge! You still refuse to listen to reason! It's amazing, Necrosis, it really is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Way to stroke your e-****. Any other unrelated issues you would like to share with us, so that we may be even more in awe of your amazing ventures into tabletop gaming? Oh what will you tell us next oh great god of tabletop gaming?!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone with any drive to succeed knows they have to experiment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here we go again. Here's some information for you: some of the best competitive players in the entire ns playing world have made comments in this topic, all of which spoke against your opinions. Does that tell you ANYTHING?! Maybe these people just know these things better than you?
But no, you could always go back to stroking your huge tabletop gaming ego.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners, mediocre clanners, will just copy. Your average pubber will just copy. The top clans are the ones that innovate, the top players the ones who experiment to get the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Players from several top clans like Exigent and Knife have posted in this topic. What kind of top clans are you talking about here? Oh wait, are you talking about something you have no clue about again? Good job, nice form.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or do you think "mine ladders" just suddenly appeared from the ether?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mine ladders have never had an impact on competitive gaming. It's something we do when we're really bored, or don't care about winning the game and are just **** about. Keep up the form.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rubbish. You can GUESSTIMATE, but you will NEVER know until you try. Two decades experience, trust me on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Talking out of your extensive ns competitive experience again? Oh wait!... Two decades worth of experience in something THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THIS AT ALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am giving you some hard learned tips on how to get on top of your opponents. You can hoot and holler and say "ogm you know noooootheeeng" but hey, I got to the top of my game, so it worked for me. Again, I ask you to find anyone in any sort of tactical gaming community to point out the big winners. You'll find they're the people with the wit and creativity to do the odd strats. They dont sit all day honing one strat over and over. They're tinkerers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what we do. We play, we perfect our skill, our tactics, our playstyle and our teamwork. We try new things, internalize the ones the work, throw away the ones that don't. What we don't do is use crazy idiot tactics given by idiots who play public and think they have a clue. YOU DON'T.
Oh wait, I'm sorry, did I catch you talking about something you have no clue about? Have you ever participated in a practice match with an ns clan? Have you ANY IDEA WHAT SO EVER WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? I thought not. Would you please go away and get a clue now? Thank you.
I've always thought that all clanners have an innate sense of... 'tinkering' per say. When they're skulks, they don't always ambush in the same spots, camp in the same corners, hide in the same holes. I remember in tanith a skulk ambushed me and caught me off guard and I died, I then, returning to the same spot, scouted for the skulk who came at a completely different angle out of an ambush spot that I was oblivious to. So clanners do have variety, even if it just ambushing.
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Mar 18 2005, 04:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 18 2005, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stuff <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://esports.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=4338' target='_blank'>please, he said top clanners not you. DO YOU HAVE TWENTY YEARS OF TABLE TOP GAMING EXPERIENCE?</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 18 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 18 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, its clear noone is really seriously tinkering with dumb strats because noone has even mentioned the tiniest bit about a possible counter. Its all flat refusal. I don't see one comment along the lines of "We practiced the past week trying electrification, it sort of worked up until they had fades". People have to experiment before they can write something off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you not read the post 3 posts above yours where i said that my clan tried catpacks and it DOESN'T WORK!
Electrification has been tried and doesn't work for the explanations already given.
I was thinking pg rushes personally (a different strat) but ive been told its been tried and doesn't work due to late a1.
Seriously before you go off on others going off of you read whats been said and know what you are talking about.
Comments
clanners, for the most part, are bad at new strategies. its basically mimick what the top 2 teams are doing and then try to get better at it.
in this way, clanners are also very narrowminded
If you'd read more of my post, you'd see that fades are your only real worry. On only 1 hive, with SC first, you only have to really worry about focus fades and/or the SC network getting too close to MS or your locked down hives.
Focus, with TIME, becomes increasingly pointless. Read my list of counters to focus, all achieveable with TIME. At most you might see a one hive SC onos, but I don't put much money on it saving a game.
Buggy -
I agree, aliens over time will generally win. But on only one hive, with only SC, aliens are going to suffer over time. Focus loses its one/two hit kill. SOF only tells you you're about to be massively buttraped. Cloaking only lets you get one bite in before you get hamburgered.
With MC, you can mc rush a hive up. With DC you can steamroll in, get the hive building, hide on it then healspam it till it arrives.
With SC, you're screwed. Marines always notice a building hive, and you need to make sure its under the SC net otherwise marines can just camp it and mow down anything incoming.
MC/DC give you some chance as time goes on. MC allows rushing, DC at least helps to counter upgraded guns. SC doesn't counter guns, SCAN negates it, and focus doesn't get any more powerful, in fact it gets worse. In an SC game, time is your friend.
I value your opinion Buggy, so if you've tried out really silly strats like stalling aliens, or locking down their other hives, or just electrifying anything you cap, then feel free to dissect my comments with impunity..... its just that noone really seems to be properly trying dumb strats to find a real counter. I just find it odd.
NGE -
April fools day?
Yes, it appears he was egged into making a comment, apparently in private, which has now been made public for whatever reason. TBH intepretation of fragments of the log can easily be turned one way or another. To me, it looks like HAMBONE has been fed in order to get info on the dev process out of him. Further, in your screen cap, it looks like an awful lot of conversations have been stored for this sort of thing.
Thats what I find worrying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The map has played fine for about... 2.5 years now, and you think it's a map flaw? It really sounds to me you have some kind of emotional bias of making the sensory chamber better at any cost.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you considered how the newer maps fit in? In addition, consider how the maps have been fixed to accomodate the Onos. By my thinking, the stuck issues were a map problem, not an Onos problem.
When I was a baby I probably thought it was ok to wet my nappy, but there comes a time where things change and the old method doesn't cut it anymore. If the problem only lies with a few older maps, it stands to reason that map problems should be considered. If you wore the same clothes every from birth, and one day they rip because they can stretch no longer.... do you buy new clothes or just say "hey those clothes were fine for 6 years, this is obviously not a clothes problem". Things change, strats have to be reevaluated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
First, clan players do not use the "same old strat", they use the most effective strategy for the given situation at hand.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is, in effect, the same old strat. Find the one that works, stick to it like glue, resist all attempts to change the game to invalidate that strat. Having sat through a lot of demos (I like to pick up tips from demos) you can see some pretty formulaic play. Back in 2.0 the chambers were virtually all identical, but in 3.0 you have this one chamber with a radical playstyle. Disaster! The chamber must be bugged!
Its not just the chamber, but its a matter of changing strats, examining the map, seeing how people use and counter it, many factors.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Also, clanplayers do not need to command to try out a strategy
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats some pretty awesome stuff if you can field test an entire UNTESTED strategy inside your head. I've played a lot of stuff over two decades, and even then I couldn't tell you the EXACT outcome of a totally new strat. I could give an educated guess, but educated guesses dont mean squat when you toss player skill and human ingenuity into the mix.
If people are doing strats in their head, and discarding them without actually field testing them.... again, perhaps the solution lies in one of the mentally discarded strats.
You skimmed over the monoculture post. Think it through again. Monocultures take only the best too.. but a time comes when something confronts them that they are so far removed from that they simply CANNOT counter it, and must die. A truly successful species keeps all these little failures going in the hope that one day they become useful. Diversity wins.
Sticking to the same map strat, regardless of chamber, is odd. Odd and suicidal if you ask me. Running games ONLY IN ONE'S HEAD is also odd. You learn very little from mental simulations, and you can't truly predict how a team of 6 people will react. Whenever I'm cranking out a new strat, I make paper counters and I dry run it a few times to check for holes.
People ignore dumdum strats and do not revisit them. There are a lot of things which have drifted out of play since 1.04, and few if any have been revisited in 3.0
Stagnation. People limit their strats because hey, if it didn't work in 1.04, its not going to work now. Problem is, with each change comes new possibilities, and running mental simulations on outdated knowledge is a pretty poor way to solve new problems. You have to get your hands dirty.
If someone came up and said "yes, I have tried every strat, I have locked down hives, I have electrified nodes, I have knife rushed the enemy, I've tried flashlight semaphore" then I'd be more inclined to validate their viewpoint. But the fact is that lots of out there stuff simply hasn't been tried.
I mean, lets bust out the ooooooooold version of Hera and run through it. The map was colossal, and vent hive a nightmare for marines. If you ran it through today's game, there'd be a slaughter. Does that mean 3.0 needs to be changed, or does it mean the map's outdated.
If the SC problem only happens on a certain few maps, then I'm going to say its probably map related. If SC is only a problem for clan play, then chances are its a clan related issue. SC is radically different from MC and DC, and has to be countered as such. There's not much difference between MC and DC in terms of openings and counters anyhow. SC is a huge departure, so strats are going to have to be similarly distanced.
From 2.0 to 3.0 we've seen sieging radically altered so that its not as much of a game ender. The PG rush is largely negated by SC if you have an observant alien team. You can't count on redemption to save a gorge. SC fails when aliens are outside the SC range. Every SC that the aliens have to drop is 10 res that was better spent elsewhere. It also means they have to stay gorge, otherwise its 20 res a pop. You NEED to be comprehensive with the SC cover because otherwise focus skulks are going to get shot to hell. Second, you need to make sure rines don't get a hive, because your second chamber is either going to leave you fragile, or limit your mobility.
The SC first game is going to run longer than most, because the first part of winning is avoiding the SC and getting res to counter. As long as aliens are kept to one hive, the biggest worry is a focus fade. Thats no small thing, but at least you know what to expect. Armour upgrades soon negate focus, and then its a shooting gallery because SCAN uncloaks the lurkers, and with no way to really heal in the field (innate regen isn't amazing) the aliens get pushed back to their hive, which is again easily taken down because it lacks DC or adren gorges. SC is just a little longer, a more roundabout counter, you can't just barge in headlong and hope you can beat the aliens with skill and medspam.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Necrosis, have you played a 3.0 pcw?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you are well aware, I am not a part of the clan scene. However, I practice my tabletop gaming and counters (with every new release and every new enemy army), I practice Armada II against a variety of AIs and enemy races, I try to dry run anything I intend to compete at. Sheer bitter experience is the best way to learn, imho, and its never failed me yet.
I would be concerned about any competitive person or group which outright refuses to physically practice and experiment with unconventional strats. Certainly in a clan environment (or in my case a gaming club environment) you can be assured of decent player skill, people who will follow orders, and people willing to help try out new strats for the good of the team. Even dumdum pubber strats just to see how "valid" they are. When some kid tells me about his new tabletop strat, I like to bust out pen and paper and see how good it is, how it compares to my tried and tested strat, and how I have to counter.
If someone said to me they just ignore the strat because they tried it x years ago, and it didn't work then, then I consider them closeminded. Rules change, strats can change value too.
If someone said they dont need to try it out, because they run it in their head, then I just laugh at them. Mental arithmetic doesnt match up to genuine PTing. You have to physically try it out to ascertain its worth.
So anyone saying they ignore new strats, don't practice, don't listen to the new guys, I find them just plain ridiculous. How are you meant to learn and improve if you're just devoted to honing the same old strat. Have to adapt to survive.
I've spent a good bit of time with dedicated players (clanners, gamers, enthusiasts, you call them what you like) and its the great ones who tinker with real idiotic strats. They're on another plane of thought entirely. These are the guys who come up things like expanding soviet Red Alert bases by building/recycling dog kennels. The ones who came up with body blocking. The ones who dropped packs to see if the hive was up.
You HAVE to try out wacky new strats if you want to be top of your game. You do NOT cling to 2 and a half year old strats "because they've always worked". Someone's going to catch on to countering SC, and when they do they're going to fly up the rankings. Right now if I was in a clan, I'd be pulling out all the stops trying nub strats to beat SC. Lockdowns, electricity, tfacs in base, you name it I'd be trying it all, just to see what cracks the nut. Right now, I dont see any evidence to say this has been done. I just see comparisions to old betas, I see comparisons to MC/DC (two chambers which are almost identical at game start, making them so much easier to counter), people running mental simulations, you name it, but I've yet to see someone say "I have tried the following nub strats. <b>Nothing</b> has worked from any of them".
You know, decent pubbers are beating other decent pubbers by nub strats like a hive lock, or garrisoning up at areas and shooting aliens down, or by electrifying everything (focus skulks cant do much). Granted this doesn't cut it in clan play, but these things need to be genuinely experimented with, distilled, and put towards a clan optimised solution.
I would not believe that in the space of 1-2 weeks anyone could experiment with all the nubby strats. You'd need 12 people with a lot of free time and ideas. Start trying the dumb strats. Keep what works. Focus only on SC, and ignore the other two chambers. When you have counters that work, try and meld them with DC/MC play. First clan to do it is going to get a big advantage over the others, and 2 months later everyone will be copying that play. Its the way things are. Its how it worked for SC, WC, A2, Dune, you name it.
EDIT - saw buggy's comment, replied to it.
remember that clans above all must <i>innovate</i> to survive. I am surprised people do not realize this. They are pointing out general areas which might or might not work, not realizing that it is part of the nature of being a competitive clan to brainstorm such ideas constantly. Eventually strategies may stabilize but in order to get there, an evolution of sorts happens, through constant <i>innovation</i>
Clans are the best suited to evolving, being the most adaptable. Ideally there exists teamwork and innovative commanders, and it is the best amongst these that come out on top. All must compete against each other; any deficiencies will be weeded out. Contrast with pub commanders whose marines do not have teamwork they can trust, who is not forced to carefully think out the situation, whose abilities are not tested in competition.
clanners, for the most part, are bad at new strategies. its basically mimick what the top 2 teams are doing and then try to get better at it.
in this way, clanners are also very narrowminded<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generalisations are always wrong <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The ability to adept a new mechanics is a skill like aiming and yes competitive players can easy get trapped using their usual tactics in a new environment.
But at least it depends on the player.
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart3.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart3.htm</a>
On lunixmonster we recearch hand grenades when the game is over and the marines have no chance of winning anyways. That is how much a waste of res they are. Recearching hand nades is a step below an all out GL rush (no HMGs or shotties, just GLs).
On lunixmonster we recearch hand grenades when the game is over and the marines have no chance of winning anyways. That is how much a waste of res they are. Recearching hand nades is a step below an all out GL rush (no HMGs or shotties, just GLs). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
u didnt get it, haha.
I guess I just find it easier to make use of grenades as I used to be a very decent DoD player. *shrug*
I'm not suggesting they rock, or that they are more valuable than armour upgrades, or that they own all kharaa in a ten foot radius as soon as they hear the grenade primed. I may even have overstated their usage. Why?
Ponder the following:
<b>Features in games that don't get used, don't get improved.</b>
Examples? Don't mind if I do. Redemption, Cat Packs, Electricity, Grenades and Turrets. When people do start using them, then people start providing feedback. Those features are then refined based on feedback.
The whole "it sucks don't use it" philosophy is great and all, but it's not really productive to improving gameplay.
[EDIT]Removed unnecessary vitriol[/EDIT]
Hm well my clan (obscure) had tried catpack rushes in beta5, they work fairly well for knifing lerks and to a lesser extent nodes however this does not reconpence their way too expensive cost...im not even sure making them 3 res is enough...in final with the sc rushes (at least that i know of) that a1 is crucial and after that point there is really no reason or res to spend on catpacks.
Things are tried but then found nearly pointless (though a certain lerk kill was pretty funny).
The fact that you're arguing that we should try new things, when you haven't even played a single competitive game on this version is so ironic that I feel my head dislodging just by thinking about it.
The fact that you're sitting there in your chair furiously typing and arguing about a topic you clearly have no experience with, or know anything about hopefully indicates to everyone that ignoring whatever you say might be for the best.
There are tactics that you can look at in a split second and know that wont work. The more experience you have, the more you know how the game works, the more you know how to recognize these types of strategies. You've never played competitive, you have no experience with competitive, how can you even begin to argue your opinion when you don't even know what you're talking about?!
Come back when you're a little more wet behind your ears, and I might care enough to argue against your opinions, which will hopefully have more merit to them. Clan play doesn't work the same way publics do, and until you try it, you're never going to know what we're talking about.
He acts like he knows anything then counters what you said by quoting 4 words at a time. It's AWESOME. Oh yeah, then the devs give him a forum title because he's so smart! What a sad sad world we live in <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
To anyone thinking clanners don't adapt: the clanscene has been using DCs and MCs a lot for awhile now (whereas it used to be DC first 90%)... don't say they don't try new things. Oh yeah and with b6 lots of people are using SC... they will use whatever is best.
Second, its clear noone is really seriously tinkering with dumb strats because noone has even mentioned the tiniest bit about a possible counter. Its all flat refusal. I don't see one comment along the lines of "We practiced the past week trying electrification, it sort of worked up until they had fades". People have to experiment before they can write something off.
Have you tried anything new and odd in your pcw's Ben? Mine strat recently? Electrification spam? Catpacks and a shotgun rush? Do tell me.
For a bunch of allegedly skilled players, you act like a bunch of screaming chimpanzees sometimes, throwing crap everywhere. Jumping on Grendel, jumping on each other, jumping on people who havent done x y or z. No wonder you keep losing to such a simple strat. I thought you guys actually experimented with "out there" strats in order to gain an edge.
I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened that you just use the same strat over and over, and throw monkey fits over anyone who dares transgress against the Holy Strat.
Fanatic, Ben, I may not spend my precious hours of life rehearsing the same game over and over, but I can tell you that during my two decades of competitive tabletop gaming I did very much practise. Trying new strats, trying odd strats, trying strats where I deliberately started off in a weaker position just to see how I could salvage the game.
And for all my practice, I ended up good enough to be banned from competing at my local store. Now, you can do the chimp thing and say I have "no experience", but the fact is I <b>do</b> have experience. My experience made me win, and made me keep winning.
If your practice does not take into account "worst case" scenarios, or doesn't experiment with odd strats, then sooner or later your little monkey tribe is going to be flattened by a clan who found out the little loophole in a certain strat. BM did some wacky stuff in their time, there are clans who did the focus/cloak rush, there are clans that used alien classes in counterintuitive ways.
Or do you think "mine ladders" just suddenly appeared from the ether?
I am giving you some hard learned tips on how to get on top of your opponents. You can hoot and holler and say "ogm you know noooootheeeng" but hey, I got to the top of my game, so it worked for me. Again, I ask you to find anyone in any sort of tactical gaming community to point out the big winners. You'll find they're the people with the wit and creativity to do the odd strats. They dont sit all day honing one strat over and over. They're tinkerers.
Consider chess. Why do you think certain gambits and openings are referred to by specific names? Someone came up with it, thrashed people for a while, others adopted it, and eventually it became wholly accepted.
NS is no different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
There are tactics that you can look at in a split second and know that wont work
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rubbish. You can GUESSTIMATE, but you will NEVER know until you try. Two decades experience, trust me on this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You've never played competitive
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive NS? No, I got bored of competitive play some time ago. I think it was the long unbroken chain of victories that did it. There's bigger things in life. But hey, if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking.
Anyone with any drive to succeed knows they have to experiment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Come back when you're a little more wet behind your ears, and I might care enough to argue against your opinions
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funniest thing ever. When you're ready to listen to someone with a personal 20yr long run of undefeated gaming, you come back. When you're ready to listen to the people who top the SC ladders, you crawl back here. When you're ready to listen to people who (through various experimental ventures) will earn more than you will ever hope to dream of, then you come begging back here on your belly. If you're all so closeminded as to NEVER try a new strat, then its no wonder you're all losing and losing badly. You're not willing to try grenades, suggested by someone with more NS experience than me? Fine. You're willing to ignore the doctrine which is universal to the best strategy gamers? Fine. It just makes you look all the more immature.
All strat games are fundamentally identical, and its the gamblers who ultimately top the tables. You might catch up in a few years, once people see the strat enough. Then you can copy it and try to hone it while the top boys move on to finding better, newer strats.
Clanners, mediocre clanners, will just copy. Your average pubber will just copy. The top clans are the ones that innovate, the top players the ones who experiment to get the best.
Insecure little children lock themselves in ivory towers and ignore the wisdom of people with far more experience than they'll ever have. You baby chimps carry on with hooting and hollering, the rest of us will just get to the task of breaking SC. Then you can come for the scraps and try to copy it.
Come on kids, lets have it. <b>Who here thinks the most successful strategists just copy other strategists?</b> You have to innovate, rather than cry about your uberstrat being broken. A child could see that SC is totally different to both MC and DC. A simpleton could suggest that the counter would be equally radically different from the expected counter. Have any of you even tried? No, you just game it in your heads. How utterly laughable.
Nad, you're such hot stuff, which counters have you tried to SC first?
Its funny, I am reminded of Gorman from Aliens
"38.... simulated"
Yeah, he did really well for himself, hahahahahahaha. You need hard experience, not number crunching in your head. But as I say, what would I know, I only have a 20yr unbroken string of tactical victories. If Kasparov came in here and made suggestions using chess as a foundation, you infants would probably tell him to play NS more because you do all your strats in your head. Hahaha, classic.
Second, its clear noone is really seriously tinkering with dumb strats because noone has even mentioned the tiniest bit about a possible counter. Its all flat refusal. I don't see one comment along the lines of "We practiced the past week trying electrification, it sort of worked up until they had fades". People have to experiment before they can write something off.
Have you tried anything new and odd in your pcw's Ben? Mine strat recently? Electrification spam? Catpacks and a shotgun rush? Do tell me.
For a bunch of allegedly skilled players, you act like a bunch of screaming chimpanzees sometimes, throwing crap everywhere. Jumping on Grendel, jumping on each other, jumping on people who havent done x y or z. No wonder you keep losing to such a simple strat. I thought you guys actually experimented with "out there" strats in order to gain an edge.
I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened that you just use the same strat over and over, and throw monkey fits over anyone who dares transgress against the Holy Strat.
Fanatic, Ben, I may not spend my precious hours of life rehearsing the same game over and over, but I can tell you that during my two decades of competitive tabletop gaming I did very much practise. Trying new strats, trying odd strats, trying strats where I deliberately started off in a weaker position just to see how I could salvage the game.
And for all my practice, I ended up good enough to be banned from competing at my local store. Now, you can do the chimp thing and say I have "no experience", but the fact is I <b>do</b> have experience. My experience made me win, and made me keep winning.
If your practice does not take into account "worst case" scenarios, or doesn't experiment with odd strats, then sooner or later your little monkey tribe is going to be flattened by a clan who found out the little loophole in a certain strat. BM did some wacky stuff in their time, there are clans who did the focus/cloak rush, there are clans that used alien classes in counterintuitive ways.
Or do you think "mine ladders" just suddenly appeared from the ether?
I am giving you some hard learned tips on how to get on top of your opponents. You can hoot and holler and say "ogm you know noooootheeeng" but hey, I got to the top of my game, so it worked for me. Again, I ask you to find anyone in any sort of tactical gaming community to point out the big winners. You'll find they're the people with the wit and creativity to do the odd strats. They dont sit all day honing one strat over and over. They're tinkerers.
Consider chess. Why do you think certain gambits and openings are referred to by specific names? Someone came up with it, thrashed people for a while, others adopted it, and eventually it became wholly accepted.
NS is no different.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
There are tactics that you can look at in a split second and know that wont work
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rubbish. You can GUESSTIMATE, but you will NEVER know until you try. Two decades experience, trust me on this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You've never played competitive
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive NS? No, I got bored of competitive play some time ago. I think it was the long unbroken chain of victories that did it. There's bigger things in life. But hey, if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking.
Anyone with any drive to succeed knows they have to experiment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Come back when you're a little more wet behind your ears, and I might care enough to argue against your opinions
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funniest thing ever. When you're ready to listen to someone with a personal 20yr long run of undefeated gaming, you come back. When you're ready to listen to the people who top the SC ladders, you crawl back here. When you're ready to listen to people who (through various experimental ventures) will earn more than you will ever hope to dream of, then you come begging back here on your belly. If you're all so closeminded as to NEVER try a new strat, then its no wonder you're all losing and losing badly. You're not willing to try grenades, suggested by someone with more NS experience than me? Fine. You're willing to ignore the doctrine which is universal to the best strategy gamers? Fine. It just makes you look all the more immature.
All strat games are fundamentally identical, and its the gamblers who ultimately top the tables. You might catch up in a few years, once people see the strat enough. Then you can copy it and try to hone it while the top boys move on to finding better, newer strats.
Clanners, mediocre clanners, will just copy. Your average pubber will just copy. The top clans are the ones that innovate, the top players the ones who experiment to get the best.
Insecure little children lock themselves in ivory towers and ignore the wisdom of people with far more experience than they'll ever have. You baby chimps carry on with hooting and hollering, the rest of us will just get to the task of breaking SC. Then you can come for the scraps and try to copy it.
Come on kids, lets have it. <b>Who here thinks the most successful strategists just copy other strategists?</b> You have to innovate, rather than cry about your uberstrat being broken. A child could see that SC is totally different to both MC and DC. A simpleton could suggest that the counter would be equally radically different from the expected counter. Have any of you even tried? No, you just game it in your heads. How utterly laughable.
Nad, you're such hot stuff, which counters have you tried to SC first?
Its funny, I am reminded of Gorman from Aliens
"38.... simulated"
Yeah, he did really well for himself, hahahahahahaha. You need hard experience, not number crunching in your head. But as I say, what would I know, I only have a 20yr unbroken string of tactical victories. If Kasparov came in here and made suggestions using chess as a foundation, you infants would probably tell him to play NS more because you do all your strats in your head. Hahaha, classic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YOU ARE CLEVER!
if you were in the competitive scene you would know this
so your argument is wrong ?!
maybe you should get an idea about what you're talking about before you type up a thesis on it
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, it appears he was egged into making a comment, apparently in private, which has now been made public for whatever reason. TBH intepretation of fragments of the log can easily be turned one way or another. To me, it looks like HAMBONE has been fed in order to get info on the dev process out of him. Further, in your screen cap, it looks like an awful lot of conversations have been stored for this sort of thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it disturbing how distrustful you are of me. First off, the log is unedited, and second, I do not take anything out of context, third, he was not egged on into making any comment, if you would please post where he is encouraged to say something then please point it out now. Fourth, there are so many of these logs stored because <b>it is an automatic feature of mIRC</b>. Just go into your options and it automatically logs any conversation you have. By the way, I'm not the only person who stores logs. Just because Forlorn happened to receive a lot of attention back in the day does not mean you should be suspicious, or dare say, jealous of it.
It has been made public, just to prove without a doubt that the incredible balance of 2.01 was a product of HAMBONE, a top clanner of the time who understood the game and received a lot of feedback from other clanners. He then took this input to Flayra who then changed the game.
What strats have they tried? Who are 'they'?
How well did the strats work? What were their weak points and strong points?
Were the failed strats analyzed, changed and retested?
On what maps were these strats attempted?
Against whom were these strats run?
Do you have demos of these strats being tested?
What strats have they tried? Who are 'they'?
How well did the strats work?
Were the failed strats analyzed, changed and retested?
Against whom were these strats run?
Do you have demos of these strats being tested? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YOU ARE CLEVER
Wow, what clans were you in? I don't ever remember you in a super uber clan that had a 'long unbroken chain of victories.' Perhaps you and your fellow pubbers could make a clan, join CAL and show us how to play? Please I'd love to see it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Put up or shut up please, seriously. I know you're gonna reply mocking me because I'm such a **** for actually asking you to prove what you said ("omg, you're so childish asking for challenges! we aren't in 5th grade anymore!" <-- go ahead just copy that, please). I'm sorry but you can't just assert that you've dominated clanplay (when I, and I doubt anyone else ever even remembers you being in a clan) then not back it up.
If you ignore this or mock me, (LIKE I SAID. HELLO PLEASE DONT JUST QUOTE ONE SENTENCE OF THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE) I'll assume you were just lying.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nad, you're such hot stuff, which counters have you tried to SC first?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lots of stuff. Armor, Proto, lockdowns, early obs, early shotties, uhm... lots of others, I can't remember all of them to be honest. SC is too strong early game. Not to mention, it's just plain NOT FUN to play against cloaking.
Ok, this is the part where Necrosis replies, quotes like one or two sentences out of the ~15 I wrote and makes a witty/sarcastic/mocking comment. You own, Necrosis.
Oh yeah, and don't forget to call me a child for asking you to back up your boasting.
Edit: okay, I just reread it and I guess Necrosis was talking about his competetive tabletop gaming experiences. Wow. Clearly him owning at Warhammer 40k makes him the guru of NS strats. Teach us, oh intelligent one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if you know better than a undefeated strategy gamer, if you know better than the guy who came up with the Evans Gambit, if you know better than the people working hard in industry and business, then you keep on trucking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to stroke your e-****. Any other unrelated issues you would like to share with us, so that we may be even more in awe of your amazing ventures into tabletop gaming? Oh what will you tell us next oh great god of tabletop gaming?!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone with any drive to succeed knows they have to experiment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go again. Here's some information for you: some of the best competitive players in the entire ns playing world have made comments in this topic, all of which spoke against your opinions. Does that tell you ANYTHING?! Maybe these people just know these things better than you?
But no, you could always go back to stroking your huge tabletop gaming ego.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners, mediocre clanners, will just copy. Your average pubber will just copy. The top clans are the ones that innovate, the top players the ones who experiment to get the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Players from several top clans like Exigent and Knife have posted in this topic. What kind of top clans are you talking about here? Oh wait, are you talking about something you have no clue about again? Good job, nice form.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or do you think "mine ladders" just suddenly appeared from the ether?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mine ladders have never had an impact on competitive gaming. It's something we do when we're really bored, or don't care about winning the game and are just **** about. Keep up the form.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rubbish. You can GUESSTIMATE, but you will NEVER know until you try. Two decades experience, trust me on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Talking out of your extensive ns competitive experience again? Oh wait!... Two decades worth of experience in something THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THIS AT ALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am giving you some hard learned tips on how to get on top of your opponents. You can hoot and holler and say "ogm you know noooootheeeng" but hey, I got to the top of my game, so it worked for me. Again, I ask you to find anyone in any sort of tactical gaming community to point out the big winners. You'll find they're the people with the wit and creativity to do the odd strats. They dont sit all day honing one strat over and over. They're tinkerers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what we do. We play, we perfect our skill, our tactics, our playstyle and our teamwork. We try new things, internalize the ones the work, throw away the ones that don't. What we don't do is use crazy idiot tactics given by idiots who play public and think they have a clue. YOU DON'T.
Oh wait, I'm sorry, did I catch you talking about something you have no clue about? Have you ever participated in a practice match with an ns clan? Have you ANY IDEA WHAT SO EVER WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? I thought not. Would you please go away and get a clue now? Thank you.
<a href='http://esports.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=4338' target='_blank'>please, he said top clanners not you. DO YOU HAVE TWENTY YEARS OF TABLE TOP GAMING EXPERIENCE?</a>
Did you not read the post 3 posts above yours where i said that my clan tried catpacks and it DOESN'T WORK!
Electrification has been tried and doesn't work for the explanations already given.
I was thinking pg rushes personally (a different strat) but ive been told its been tried and doesn't work due to late a1.
Seriously before you go off on others going off of you read whats been said and know what you are talking about.