<!--QuoteBegin-InquisitiveIdiot+Apr 30 2004, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (InquisitiveIdiot @ Apr 30 2004, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In this instance the suggestion is to remove bunny-hopping for aliens and balance accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good lord! Didn't any of you people read anything beyond "remove bunnyhopping?"
I said remove it, <i> then increase the speed to bunnyhopping levels.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, please. If you're going to criticize me for not reading your post, then you might bother to read all of my post. Here is what I posted at the end of the paragraph you just quoted: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I agree that skulk base speed would need to be slightly boosted if this change were to be implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I AGREED with you in increasing the skulk's speed. Though it must be said that increasing the base speed to full bunny-hopping speeds would not be balanced, especially with celerity.
<!--QuoteBegin-JustMe84+Apr 28 2004, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JustMe84 @ Apr 28 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is why we have mp_tournamentmode... Lets just use it to its full potential. I can see alot of things that can be implemented here, that would make clan games more fast paced than public, like enabling BH, totally different costs for gestates and equipment, damages, health values... and so on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo.
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+May 2 2004, 09:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ May 2 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There was recently a 20 page thread over about 4 days about removing bhop in the vet forum. Its not going to happen people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What else did you guys conclude there? What was the major reason for it to stay?
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+May 2 2004, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ May 2 2004, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-[SiD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Squishy,May 2 2004, 09:30 PM] There was recently a 20 page thread over about 4 days about removing bhop in the vet forum. Its not going to happen people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> what kind of vet would start that topic <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What else did you guys conclude there? What was the major reason for it to stay? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing was concluded, basically most of the delta vets like it and most of the non delta vets don't. That of course is a general statement.
Im not going to get into what the arguements were because I don't want the thread to turn out like that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what kind of vet would start that topic <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the vet program was made open to pretty much everyone at one point <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
Cpl.Davis' 2 cents (my small input for all you non americans <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
On the matter of pubbers against clanners, which some of you have mentioned earlier.
As someone who has played NS since day one (and what a day that was <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Id say that simple teamwork can play as large a role/factor in determinining a winner as any large scale "game change".
Whether you be pubber or clanner if you have the team that just straight up works together you can accomplish so much more. Ive seen many a game when some so called l33t clan would come "invade"a pup server and wind up sorely disapointed, or win by thr skin of their butt.
And that is why I think NS is also a highly mental game as well.
It must be some type of group mentality, or something, take a group of random people give them all a single tag and suddenly they feel a lot more confident, Everything you do is magnified. Get with a group of friends (or strangers in many cases), make a team, get some wins and suddenly you feel unstoppable, lots of pride and some bragging rights. Make a mistake and the moral just drops in some caes, and/or agression becomes focused on each other.
But either way team spirit does matter. It gives you confidence and when you feel confident you preform better. Being it in a sports game, a math test, or a computer game.
If teamwork can be had in anygame I give the team that works together a 40% boost in winning chance. Even if its filled with lots of brand new players.
Gaming like this is also a lot more fun as well.
Just think,why do everyone from governemnts, generals, CEOs, teachers and more worry so much about moral and teamwork? B/c its such a positive boost when comes down to accomplishing your goal.
I think that on too many occasions when pubbers have to fight against or compaire themesleves against clanners they get this "Ahh crap we are gonna lose now they are so different then us so lets not even try" attitude and right there they hav already shot themselves in the foot for any good chance of winning.
Balance problems when converting a clan balanced NS to pub games have little to do with imbalances in particular weapons and game mechanics, and much more to do with a flawed scaling system. 6v6 is considered the ideal number of players for a balanced game of NS; any more and the marines gain the advantage because passive upgrades cost proportionally less, any fewer and the aliens gain the advantage because the higher life forms and buildings cost proportionally less. The solution to balancing NS for pub games lies in correctly scaling upgrade/equipment costs as well as alien res flow and respawn rates.
Great comments overall, but I'd like to point out how NS is built largely around teamplay.
The reason clan players do better many (but not all) of the times is largely because they know how to play as a team and what each individuals strengths are. Certain players excel as a fade, so they go fade, others are great gorgs. Some players are excellent coms, some a killer with a jetpack/shotty combo.
Pubbers don't have this advantage many of the times, half their team are strangers and often the communication is lacking for solid team play (how many coms have to suffer with "Give me a shotty! Give me a Grenade launcher!" only to have that player die a few seconds later).
Granted, some pubbers actually have a makeshift clan going, become such solid regulars on some servers that they basically are clan players without the formal title. They know who's comming, who's jetpacking, who's ono'sing and who's gorging right from the start. These are the servers where newbies best keep their mouths shut and follow the team, until they find their niche.
The flaw with NS isn't really a flaw, its the strength of the game. I had to work through a lot of bad games to become good, not at shooting, but understanding how to let certain players get jetpack before I did, or how to go gorg when someone else was whoring to a fade. It's tough to swallow your pride, but clans know (and many vets of this game do too, clan or not) that this is the key to the game.
You can't "balance" that out in the game. Trust me when I say most vets and clan players would rather have someone who can't shoot well, but follows orders and backs them up when needed, over that ace rambo who can hit a skulk a 100 yards away but can't play worth crap with other people. Granted, having a player who is both is great, but ultimately a team of average shooters and a solid com who plays well together will beat most of the time a team with a bunch of ace players who don't play as a team and doesn't work togther.
<!--QuoteBegin-shanks+Apr 28 2004, 05:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ Apr 28 2004, 05:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> tell me a game that is balanced for both clan play and public play? (a team based game)
to be honest, what would be nice to see would be some thing along the lines of NS_ being geared primarily towards clan play as it currently is, and co_ being geared more towards public. I would love to see a co_ tournament, but as it's still in such early stages, this won't happen for a while. combat is meant to be the training grounds for classic, so let people train up their aim and skills, and then go onto classic servers to learn about that style - they already have the fundamental skills of aiming etc sorted, so don't need to be worrying about that stuff.
an ideal solution, but one that will never happen
you will always get the split in the community, and there is rarely any thing you can do about it, especially in a game as diverse as NS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ugl has a combat league
<!--QuoteBegin-Yumosis+May 2 2004, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ May 2 2004, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+May 2 2004, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ May 2 2004, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-[SiD+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Squishy,May 2 2004, 09:30 PM] There was recently a 20 page thread over about 4 days about removing bhop in the vet forum. Its not going to happen people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> what kind of vet would start that topic <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> seriously, what the hell kind of vet would ask for such a thing? bhopping is what makes n-s n-s...sorry about the double post
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->seriously, what the hell kind of vet would ask for such a thing? bhopping is what makes n-s n-s...sorry about the double post <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm I answered your question if you read my post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well I think alot of the vets are getting a better feel and caring for the pub arena. And I think the pub players are now getting a better feel for the vets viewpoint. I bring this up because of the mering of the 2 sides.
We used to have the Playtesters - Basically the pubbers.
Then we had the veterans,, the clan players.
Playtesters tried to balance for the pubs that they host or play on regularly. Some were 7v7, and some were 16v16. And even sometimes they're 10v14 with stacks and drops.
The drops don't happen in the clan scene, all of that is controlled. All the clanners care about is the 6v6. The problem is that if you balance a game for 6v6, like the time it takes to get a fade in a 6v6, in a 10v10 that is a LOT longer. The marines have more tech when the first fade comes out. This is one major problem of NS.
Now however, the old playtesters are gone, and the old veterans are gone. Some remain from each group to give their input about the game. Public server admins, community leaders, top level clan members, avid pubbers, casual players, and the average joe give their input as one group. There is around 70 people in this group that all come from different backgrounds and each give their valuable input about Natural Selections. Features their respective community would like to see, and balance issues from another. I am quite pleased with how this gruop is really starting to appreciate where the other people come from. There isn't a seperation anymore. Maybe that comes from a "weeding out" of the bad apples, or maybe its just people realizing that to make NS great in their respective community, you need to make it great for every community.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>I play on some pubs. I've played since 1.04 just about every day, and I never spend less than 3 hours sitting at any one time. I play to win, every time. I want nothing else but to see my team go on to sweet, sweet victory. I've played about three PUGs. I hear enough vets and clan people talking to understand the game dynamics, which so many pubbers just don't hear or listen to. On your average pub, I'm an above-average player. I'm just a mediocre substandard player by clan standards, but I understand this game well enough not to rush marines as a skulk, or to run around the map without a buddy to cover me and help me zap skulks on sight. If I got recruited, which has never ever in history happened to me, I might have a chance to refine my game to the point where I'd make a solid player. However, at best I'm busy with my life, and at worst, I have no idea what I'll be doing in the next six months and beyond. I'm thus a rather unreliable person, making me bad for clans. Making me worse for clans is that I play games on my own schedual. If I have someone asking me to come scrim every couple of hours or less, it'd drive me out of my mind. I'd turn off my computer to avoid it. Yes, I love winning. Ohhhh I love it. But I don't want to spend every waking moment knowing that my team's win or loss is partially riding on my back. That sounds like a lot of undue stress. I know it's necesary to grow and get better or something, but my god. I can't game as a profession. I barely have time to game as a hobby. Nobody like me makes any money gaming. Besides, 9 out of 10 times I'm concentrating on something entirely different from the game, and my playing reflects it. Attention deficit is lame.
:[ And that's why I'm not in a clan, even though I could be.
Naturally, topics like this make me feel conflicted about where I stand.
I like Natural Selection's complexity, so balancing the field is a bad thing in my mind. There's that joke going around about NS turning into CS with dogs. I also like NS's high skill curve. It makes me feel like all the countless hours I've wasted playing this damn game have been worth something when I get the kill notification for four or more players in ten seconds or so. That makes me feel really good. Dumbing down NS is the worst idea. I like the fact that if you can aim, you can clean up. I like the fact that if you're smart, you clean up. I like the fact that if you practice, you clean up. I like the fact that NS isn't just a game you pick up and play.
There needs to be a move to bring new players up to at least decent levels. The NS Guides program sounds too idealistic to ever work. Tutorials and hazard courses only explain so much. The forums are open, and it's not hard to improve the game of most players out there. The problem is, this all hinges on the new player's interest in learning
The internet doesn't have a mental-age requirement. That's problem number one the way I see it. I don't think Flayra can fix that.
Instead, what he ought to do is make the game so mind-bogglingly tricky and skill/teamplay based that every two bit newb and low-intensity player gets so disgusted by having to actually work on a team to get anything done that they just LEAVE (or kill themselves), and we'll never have to put up with them ever again, amen. Imagine if every game of Tetris automatically started you on Grandmaster level. Boy we'd get rid of a lot of people who aren't serious about playing Tetris, wouldn't we? The move would automatically get rid of a large chunk of useless players that nobody wants in this community anyway. Ideally.
And that's my Final Solution to the Newbish problem. Please read the disclaimer which states that I am in no means serious. I just play this game until I get bored and play something else. Flayra can do whatever he wants. I got this thing for free.
As for pub size vs clan game size, that's an issue server admins and clan leagues need to work out. I like 8v8 myself. But with a small clan community, 8v8 is near impossible to wrangle. There are probably people even more unreliable than me who are in clans. Expecting clan game size to grow 33% larger overnight just because they balanced the game for 8v8 is stupid. Similarly, expecting servers with massive player counts like 12v12 or even larger to switch to 12-16 max players isn't going to happen.
You guys work it out, I'm still writing my termpapers in the middle of the damn night and I can't offer you anything.</span>
Well, i play in pubs servers only for fun, cause im bored, everytime i can i look for pcw, mix team, etc. But always, i simply cant, so i play in pubs. I think a great solution is, to set up servers "only vets" or smthing like that, this would make the pubbers happier and the vets too, but it will separete the community even more, i dont know, i still have fun playing in pubs ^^ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Speaking of which, what ever happened to servers like the Hamptons? I miss having servers I know I can go to for a decent game</span>.
Great first post Coca, that quote looks familiar too.
The reason I suggest balancing for pub play rather than clan play is that it is in pub play that you have such a huge variety of skills. Simply balancing for the top clan players is short sighted and will drive the majority of us mere mortals away from the game.
The problem is fortunately not as complicated as you see, although hard to get through to some players there is a solution.
Many of the features in NS have been tuned to be 'skill multipliers' rather than skill aids.
We have three players "Nubby", "JoPub" and "[clan]1337ster", in three different realities they play a game of NS (not co) at the same time with the same people and stay skulk the whole game.
They're scores are as follows Nubby 15:35 JoPub 25:25 [clan]1337ster 35:15
now in another three realities they play the same game but they all go fade Nubby 4:46 JoPub 30:20 [Clan]1337ster 50:0
In the first instance you can see a pretty fair spread of skill and obviously [clan]1337ster is a bigger asset to his team than Nubby but in the second instance you see how an influx of res, spent on upgrades (in this case to fade) actually made the difference in effectiveness vastly greater. This is the same for most equipement that has been altered since 1.04 it has been tailored for the elite to own up the nubby's and JoPubs of the world.
I would suggest that the second instance should be tailored so its more Nubby 25:25 JoPub 30:20 [Clan]1337ster 40:10
Making upgrades skill additives rather than multipliers. Then it can be balanced for the wide range of skills so long as the teams are approximately balanced. Once there is balance for the range of skills on a pub server there will be balanced at clan level too.
That would be nice eaglec. However i have trouble visualising how this could be done without basically removing the skill needed to use one of the classes. In order for clanners to not get advantage attacks and movement speed would have to be lowered etc. This would be fine if we moved away from the leet sharp shooter or skulk and more to teamwork and strategy of the fight. I.e. players become much more like rts units where the amount of damadge they will do is pretty much fixed and the outcome of a battle can be predicted. Like other people have said this would vastly reduce the fps skills needed to play ns and make your tactics much more important. However this does rather take that skill factor away from the game and the soldiers become the commanders robots.
Players have earned the skill that allows them to rip through a pub and alot of control would have to be taken from the player to prevent this. IMHO this problem comes with the fps territory.
Let me focus on the fade and it's wide skill range. One of the key aspects of the fade is blinking and doing it quick when in combat. When newer players go fade, they first don't know blink exists. When they figure it out, it takes them time to switch to blink and figure out how to basically use it. Many might be unaware of hud_fastswitch or don't use it because they don't know which weapons are in which slots yet. When they have that all straightened out, it still takes some practice to get used to when and how you should blink about. There is no straight-forward guide to tell them how to effectively use the fade. If there was one, they wouldn't know where to find it.
This problem is reflective of many aspects of NS. (e.g. bunny-hopping) Furthermore, many of those same aspects are what makes NS so exciting to play. We need to make it much easier to learn and/or much easier to do.
Easier to learn: We can't expect new players to search for guides online. In-game tutorials would work wonders. They would need to include introductions to basic gameplay all the way to learning high-end skills such as bunny-hopping. (if were going to keep it in, we need to teach people to use it) I would offer my services if this were possible and supported.
Easier to do: Many people have issues with a solution along these lines. Why should others have an easier time doing something they invested so much into learning? We need to let this selfish notion go. One particular idea in this strategy that I would like to see would be to add a particular ability -- leap and blink in particular -- as a secondary attack at any time no matter which weapon is being used. This tells the early NS player that this is important to use as this creature. Blinking about would be more intuitive and easier, but wouldn't limit skilled players. The only problem with this idea is some weapons have an important weapon-switch time for balance. But this can easily addressed, I think. There are also other ways to make things easier to do for the lesser-skilled.
god please, not everything is going to be set out on a silver platter for pubbers to learn. You have to figure out how to use blink on your own, seriously, don't be lazy. It's obvious how to use it. And this has to be the first game where I've seen someone complain about not knowing hud_fastswitch... lol.
Making stuff easier to do or easier to learn? Why bring down the skill of the game because you can't figure out how to use blink? Seriously.
Stop whining and figure it out on your own OR ASK A CLANNER FOR HELP. Don't whine that the game needs to be made easier, and who cares if bhop isn't in the manual, lots of things aren't in the manual (wake up, nobody reads the manual anyway), so what? Doesn't make them cheap or unfair, it just means that you aren't going to be spoonfed everything you need to know about NS.
God, your attitude is so horrible and wrong...
Edit: I didn't see anyone whining about conc jumping in TFC, it wasn't in the manual. What about rocket jumping? What about other tricks and stuff you can learn with Engineers and dispensers? What about throwing a bag out so your emp does more damage? And about grenades, what about priming them? What about the nail gren exploit? What about the multiple pipetraps exploit? (not that the last two are legal, just a point) Skimming? Sharking? Ramp sliding? Honestly the attitude of the NS pubber who just wants to be fed all the information and exactly how to play is just pathetic. Figure something out on your own damnit.
Edit2: Its tricks like the stuff I named above which make the game a lot of fun to play. I know I won't have as much fun playing TF on HL2 (if it gets ported) as I did with TF or TFC. Bhop and all the other fun tricks will be gone due to the damn realistic engine. Sigh.
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+May 3 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ May 3 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God, your attitude is so horrible and wrong... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> agreed completely
do you really think that a game should be tailored so that it plays identically for everyone? <b>people who are more skilled at playing a game should do better in it</b>. if they don't, then what the hell is the point of playing it? it's common sense that a better player will excel where a poor player would die. it's no different than any other game, be it a videogame or a sport played in real life.
would you suggest to the NFL that all of the players must move at the same speed, weigh the same amount, have the same amount of muscle mass, have the same arm and leg strength, and have played for identical periods of time so that the game is "fair"? <b>that doesn't make any sense</b>. although that is an exaggeration, why would you suggest anything even remotely similar here?
this discussion is getting ridiculous.
edit: half of the people in this thread making comparisons to CS and such have obviously never actually <b>played</b> CS with an experienced player. have you <b>ever</b> played on a public server filled with new to average skill level players where a good cal-invite player joins? they can easily take out the entire opposing team, repeatedly, every round. they end up with a ratio easily exceeding 40:1. why is NS so different that when people are good, everyone has to complain and say that it's because the game is unbalanced?
Well while making things easier to learn through practice would certainly be a negative having all the little things vets do written down in one place for people to read would be nice.
IMO if your going to have things in the game you can't learn strictly from playing than it has to be in the guide or it can be construed as an unfair advantage.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+May 3 2004, 01:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ May 3 2004, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Speaking of which, what ever happened to servers like the Hamptons? I miss having servers I know I can go to for a decent game</span>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i run a server which is for experienced players only, and more or less imitates the original ruleset of hampton's.
you CAN learn these things from playing squishy... how do you think they were first figured out? Besides there are guides out there for whatever you want to do. google "bhop guide" and I'm sure you'll get at least 5 decent guides.
other than bhop, what little things do vets do? aim well? dodge well? blink well? All things that can be learned from playing...
I fail to see what the problem is... If you dont balance the game according to competative play... the game will go NOWHERE. Do you understand? Right now players can chose to work on their skills improving to the "competative" level. but if you balance the game according to public play... then no one will want to play competatively. thus anyone that has risen to the challenge at getting good at the game will not be rewarded at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+May 3 2004, 10:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ May 3 2004, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> god please, not everything is going to be set out on a silver platter for pubbers to learn. You have to figure out how to use blink on your own, seriously, don't be lazy. It's obvious how to use it. And this has to be the first game where I've seen someone complain about not knowing hud_fastswitch... lol.
Making stuff easier to do or easier to learn? Why bring down the skill of the game because you can't figure out how to use blink? Seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, god... please people... READ MY POST and at least put a little effort into understanding it BEFORE RESPONDING TO IT. I swear. That's the second time this has happened in this thread alone. I can barely even attempt a rebuttal when your reply is so off the mark. Gah... I specifically worded my post just to prevent such replies. I can't reply without being redundant.
Comments
I said remove it, <i> then increase the speed to bunnyhopping levels.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, please. If you're going to criticize me for not reading your post, then you might bother to read all of my post. Here is what I posted at the end of the paragraph you just quoted:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I agree that skulk base speed would need to be slightly boosted if this change were to be implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I AGREED with you in increasing the skulk's speed. Though it must be said that increasing the base speed to full bunny-hopping speeds would not be balanced, especially with celerity.
Bingo.
What else did you guys conclude there? What was the major reason for it to stay?
what kind of vet would start that topic <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL ^^
Nothing was concluded, basically most of the delta vets like it and most of the non delta vets don't. That of course is a general statement.
Im not going to get into what the arguements were because I don't want the thread to turn out like that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what kind of vet would start that topic <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the vet program was made open to pretty much everyone at one point <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ROFL ^^
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My sentiments precisely.
On the matter of pubbers against clanners, which some of you have mentioned earlier.
As someone who has played NS since day one (and what a day that was <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Id say that simple teamwork can play as large a role/factor in determinining a winner as any large scale "game change".
Whether you be pubber or clanner if you have the team that just straight up works together you can accomplish so much more. Ive seen many a game when some so called l33t clan would come "invade"a pup server and wind up sorely disapointed, or win by thr skin of their butt.
And that is why I think NS is also a highly mental game as well.
It must be some type of group mentality, or something, take a group of random people give them all a single tag and suddenly they feel a lot more confident, Everything you do is magnified. Get with a group of friends (or strangers in many cases), make a team, get some wins and suddenly you feel unstoppable, lots of pride and some bragging rights. Make a mistake and the moral just drops in some caes, and/or agression becomes focused on each other.
But either way team spirit does matter. It gives you confidence and when you feel confident you preform better.
Being it in a sports game, a math test, or a computer game.
If teamwork can be had in anygame I give the team that works together a 40% boost in winning chance. Even if its filled with lots of brand new players.
Gaming like this is also a lot more fun as well.
Just think,why do everyone from governemnts, generals, CEOs, teachers and more worry so much about moral and teamwork? B/c its such a positive boost when comes down to accomplishing your goal.
I think that on too many occasions when pubbers have to fight against or compaire themesleves against clanners they get this "Ahh crap we are gonna lose now they are so different then us so lets not even try" attitude and right there they hav already shot themselves in the foot for any good chance of winning.
Great comments overall, but I'd like to point out how NS is built largely around teamplay.
The reason clan players do better many (but not all) of the times is largely because they know how to play as a team and what each individuals strengths are. Certain players excel as a fade, so they go fade, others are great gorgs. Some players are excellent coms, some a killer with a jetpack/shotty combo.
Pubbers don't have this advantage many of the times, half their team are strangers and often the communication is lacking for solid team play (how many coms have to suffer with "Give me a shotty! Give me a Grenade launcher!" only to have that player die a few seconds later).
Granted, some pubbers actually have a makeshift clan going, become such solid regulars on some servers that they basically are clan players without the formal title. They know who's comming, who's jetpacking, who's ono'sing and who's gorging right from the start. These are the servers where newbies best keep their mouths shut and follow the team, until they find their niche.
The flaw with NS isn't really a flaw, its the strength of the game. I had to work through a lot of bad games to become good, not at shooting, but understanding how to let certain players get jetpack before I did, or how to go gorg when someone else was whoring to a fade. It's tough to swallow your pride, but clans know (and many vets of this game do too, clan or not) that this is the key to the game.
You can't "balance" that out in the game. Trust me when I say most vets and clan players would rather have someone who can't shoot well, but follows orders and backs them up when needed, over that ace rambo who can hit a skulk a 100 yards away but can't play worth crap with other people. Granted, having a player who is both is great, but ultimately a team of average shooters and a solid com who plays well together will beat most of the time a team with a bunch of ace players who don't play as a team and doesn't work togther.
to be honest, what would be nice to see would be some thing along the lines of NS_ being geared primarily towards clan play as it currently is, and co_ being geared more towards public. I would love to see a co_ tournament, but as it's still in such early stages, this won't happen for a while. combat is meant to be the training grounds for classic, so let people train up their aim and skills, and then go onto classic servers to learn about that style - they already have the fundamental skills of aiming etc sorted, so don't need to be worrying about that stuff.
an ideal solution, but one that will never happen
you will always get the split in the community, and there is rarely any thing you can do about it, especially in a game as diverse as NS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ugl has a combat league
what kind of vet would start that topic <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
seriously, what the hell kind of vet would ask for such a thing? bhopping is what makes n-s n-s...sorry about the double post
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm I answered your question if you read my post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We used to have the Playtesters - Basically the pubbers.
Then we had the veterans,, the clan players.
Playtesters tried to balance for the pubs that they host or play on regularly. Some were 7v7, and some were 16v16. And even sometimes they're 10v14 with stacks and drops.
The drops don't happen in the clan scene, all of that is controlled. All the clanners care about is the 6v6. The problem is that if you balance a game for 6v6, like the time it takes to get a fade in a 6v6, in a 10v10 that is a LOT longer. The marines have more tech when the first fade comes out. This is one major problem of NS.
Now however, the old playtesters are gone, and the old veterans are gone. Some remain from each group to give their input about the game. Public server admins, community leaders, top level clan members, avid pubbers, casual players, and the average joe give their input as one group. There is around 70 people in this group that all come from different backgrounds and each give their valuable input about Natural Selections. Features their respective community would like to see, and balance issues from another. I am quite pleased with how this gruop is really starting to appreciate where the other people come from. There isn't a seperation anymore. Maybe that comes from a "weeding out" of the bad apples, or maybe its just people realizing that to make NS great in their respective community, you need to make it great for every community.
:[ And that's why I'm not in a clan, even though I could be.
Naturally, topics like this make me feel conflicted about where I stand.
I like Natural Selection's complexity, so balancing the field is a bad thing in my mind. There's that joke going around about NS turning into CS with dogs. I also like NS's high skill curve. It makes me feel like all the countless hours I've wasted playing this damn game have been worth something when I get the kill notification for four or more players in ten seconds or so. That makes me feel really good. Dumbing down NS is the worst idea. I like the fact that if you can aim, you can clean up. I like the fact that if you're smart, you clean up. I like the fact that if you practice, you clean up. I like the fact that NS isn't just a game you pick up and play.
There needs to be a move to bring new players up to at least decent levels. The NS Guides program sounds too idealistic to ever work. Tutorials and hazard courses only explain so much. The forums are open, and it's not hard to improve the game of most players out there. The problem is, this all hinges on the new player's interest in learning
The internet doesn't have a mental-age requirement. That's problem number one the way I see it. I don't think Flayra can fix that.
Instead, what he ought to do is make the game so mind-bogglingly tricky and skill/teamplay based that every two bit newb and low-intensity player gets so disgusted by having to actually work on a team to get anything done that they just LEAVE (or kill themselves), and we'll never have to put up with them ever again, amen. Imagine if every game of Tetris automatically started you on Grandmaster level. Boy we'd get rid of a lot of people who aren't serious about playing Tetris, wouldn't we? The move would automatically get rid of a large chunk of useless players that nobody wants in this community anyway. Ideally.
And that's my Final Solution to the Newbish problem. Please read the disclaimer which states that I am in no means serious. I just play this game until I get bored and play something else. Flayra can do whatever he wants. I got this thing for free.
As for pub size vs clan game size, that's an issue server admins and clan leagues need to work out. I like 8v8 myself. But with a small clan community, 8v8 is near impossible to wrangle. There are probably people even more unreliable than me who are in clans. Expecting clan game size to grow 33% larger overnight just because they balanced the game for 8v8 is stupid. Similarly, expecting servers with massive player counts like 12v12 or even larger to switch to 12-16 max players isn't going to happen.
You guys work it out, I'm still writing my termpapers in the middle of the damn night and I can't offer you anything.</span>
Well, i play in pubs servers only for fun, cause im bored, everytime i can i look for pcw, mix team, etc. But always, i simply cant, so i play in pubs. I think a great solution is, to set up servers "only vets" or smthing like that, this would make the pubbers happier and the vets too, but it will separete the community even more, i dont know, i still have fun playing in pubs ^^ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The reason I suggest balancing for pub play rather than clan play is that it is in pub play that you have such a huge variety of skills. Simply balancing for the top clan players is short sighted and will drive the majority of us mere mortals away from the game.
The problem is fortunately not as complicated as you see, although hard to get through to some players there is a solution.
Many of the features in NS have been tuned to be 'skill multipliers' rather than skill aids.
We have three players "Nubby", "JoPub" and "[clan]1337ster", in three different realities they play a game of NS (not co) at the same time with the same people and stay skulk the whole game.
They're scores are as follows
Nubby 15:35
JoPub 25:25
[clan]1337ster 35:15
now in another three realities they play the same game but they all go fade
Nubby 4:46
JoPub 30:20
[Clan]1337ster 50:0
In the first instance you can see a pretty fair spread of skill and obviously [clan]1337ster is a bigger asset to his team than Nubby but in the second instance you see how an influx of res, spent on upgrades (in this case to fade) actually made the difference in effectiveness vastly greater. This is the same for most equipement that has been altered since 1.04 it has been tailored for the elite to own up the nubby's and JoPubs of the world.
I would suggest that the second instance should be tailored so its more
Nubby 25:25
JoPub 30:20
[Clan]1337ster 40:10
Making upgrades skill additives rather than multipliers. Then it can be balanced for the wide range of skills so long as the teams are approximately balanced. Once there is balance for the range of skills on a pub server there will be balanced at clan level too.
Like other people have said this would vastly reduce the fps skills needed to play ns and make your tactics much more important. However this does rather take that skill factor away from the game and the soldiers become the commanders robots.
Players have earned the skill that allows them to rip through a pub and alot of control would have to be taken from the player to prevent this. IMHO this problem comes with the fps territory.
This problem is reflective of many aspects of NS. (e.g. bunny-hopping) Furthermore, many of those same aspects are what makes NS so exciting to play. We need to make it much easier to learn and/or much easier to do.
Easier to learn: We can't expect new players to search for guides online. In-game tutorials would work wonders. They would need to include introductions to basic gameplay all the way to learning high-end skills such as bunny-hopping. (if were going to keep it in, we need to teach people to use it) I would offer my services if this were possible and supported.
Easier to do: Many people have issues with a solution along these lines. Why should others have an easier time doing something they invested so much into learning? We need to let this selfish notion go. One particular idea in this strategy that I would like to see would be to add a particular ability -- leap and blink in particular -- as a secondary attack at any time no matter which weapon is being used. This tells the early NS player that this is important to use as this creature. Blinking about would be more intuitive and easier, but wouldn't limit skilled players. The only problem with this idea is some weapons have an important weapon-switch time for balance. But this can easily addressed, I think. There are also other ways to make things easier to do for the lesser-skilled.
Making stuff easier to do or easier to learn? Why bring down the skill of the game because you can't figure out how to use blink? Seriously.
Stop whining and figure it out on your own OR ASK A CLANNER FOR HELP. Don't whine that the game needs to be made easier, and who cares if bhop isn't in the manual, lots of things aren't in the manual (wake up, nobody reads the manual anyway), so what? Doesn't make them cheap or unfair, it just means that you aren't going to be spoonfed everything you need to know about NS.
God, your attitude is so horrible and wrong...
Edit: I didn't see anyone whining about conc jumping in TFC, it wasn't in the manual. What about rocket jumping? What about other tricks and stuff you can learn with Engineers and dispensers? What about throwing a bag out so your emp does more damage? And about grenades, what about priming them? What about the nail gren exploit? What about the multiple pipetraps exploit? (not that the last two are legal, just a point) Skimming? Sharking? Ramp sliding? Honestly the attitude of the NS pubber who just wants to be fed all the information and exactly how to play is just pathetic. Figure something out on your own damnit.
Edit2: Its tricks like the stuff I named above which make the game a lot of fun to play. I know I won't have as much fun playing TF on HL2 (if it gets ported) as I did with TF or TFC. Bhop and all the other fun tricks will be gone due to the damn realistic engine. Sigh.
agreed completely
do you really think that a game should be tailored so that it plays identically for everyone? <b>people who are more skilled at playing a game should do better in it</b>. if they don't, then what the hell is the point of playing it? it's common sense that a better player will excel where a poor player would die. it's no different than any other game, be it a videogame or a sport played in real life.
would you suggest to the NFL that all of the players must move at the same speed, weigh the same amount, have the same amount of muscle mass, have the same arm and leg strength, and have played for identical periods of time so that the game is "fair"? <b>that doesn't make any sense</b>. although that is an exaggeration, why would you suggest anything even remotely similar here?
this discussion is getting ridiculous.
edit: half of the people in this thread making comparisons to CS and such have obviously never actually <b>played</b> CS with an experienced player. have you <b>ever</b> played on a public server filled with new to average skill level players where a good cal-invite player joins? they can easily take out the entire opposing team, repeatedly, every round. they end up with a ratio easily exceeding 40:1. why is NS so different that when people are good, everyone has to complain and say that it's because the game is unbalanced?
IMO if your going to have things in the game you can't learn strictly from playing than it has to be in the guide or it can be construed as an unfair advantage.
i run a server which is for experienced players only, and more or less imitates the original ruleset of hampton's.
66.235.187.77:27015
other than bhop, what little things do vets do? aim well? dodge well? blink well? All things that can be learned from playing...
Making stuff easier to do or easier to learn? Why bring down the skill of the game because you can't figure out how to use blink? Seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, god... please people... READ MY POST and at least put a little effort into understanding it BEFORE RESPONDING TO IT. I swear. That's the second time this has happened in this thread alone. I can barely even attempt a rebuttal when your reply is so off the mark. Gah... I specifically worded my post just to prevent such replies. I can't reply without being redundant.