Being a noob is, a handicap. Although we were all nubs and we all played with vets that crushed us down like nothing. But im glad they were there. Becuase with out those people to make me actually try to play harder i would suck. This game shouldnt be "balance" for Noobs. And not for Clans either. Alot of pubbers ask for skulks to be stronger or weaker, but then dont even know what their sole purpose is. I tend to agree more with vets, not becuz i am one, but becuz they are usually right, becuz they know more about how this game works. The reason why skulks should have more armor hp or less should be from someone saying ,"OMG I CANT SHOOT THESE STUPID THINGS !@#$@#$...." Which is very common on some servers. The balance is not between Clans and Noobs, It is between the average skilled player who plays in with his team ( HUGE EMPHASIS ON TEAM!!!!) and is having trouble with something, and between very well organized clan based players who know each other very well. This is a team game if you are complaining that you cant kill a skulk by yourself then you should grab you pillow and suffocate yourself.
Ns is a team game. Get with the program or die. As simple as that.
Flay made a post! Hey flay go read the bhop thread in the vet archives <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+May 6 2004, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ May 6 2004, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe if they knew a single skulk can kill a turret without getting hit :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Buh? How the hell?
Doubt it fares well against a farm of like 6. Rarely do I see just one. Any decnt comm will have at least one turret able to cover others.
I disagree, Flayra (even though your the one making the mod ;P). You should take feedback from both groups and balance it accordingly, I dont believe you have to balance it for both players. Skill is a major factor that needs to be ignored in balancing. People <b>will</b> whine once an exellent player repeatedly kills them and gains a seemingly impossible advantage. Such feedback needs to be ignored (like "skulk is too strong because <b><i><u>I</i></u></b> cant hit it).
This game is a balancing nightmare... but in the end we'll pull through. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It just will take time and patience to balance the game, and lets hope its not for either clan play or pub play, just feedback gathered and mixed together from both.
Unit A has 100 HP/0 Armor and does 10 Attack. Unit B has 50 HP and 5 Armor, and does 10 Attack. They both fire at the same rate and range. Projectile takes time to reach the target. (Attack - Armor = Damage) They move at the exact same rate; nothing changes this. They're in a white, EMPTY box (no cover,) and they're both colored pitch black.
There. Unit A and B are in perfect ballance! If you pit them 1 on 1, un-moving, and shooting at eachother, the one who got the shot off first will win. Otherwise, they'll kill themselves at the exact same time.
Now, as soon as you put "skill" into the equation it becomes hopelessly tangled.
Why? because someone with "skill" may be able to move in a certain way and screw up the other's aim, and get more damage in or someone could miss 40% of their shots or someone could cheat, and get perfect accuracy (with the cheat calculating the distance and crazy stuff like that to shoot in expectation of the enemy)
Skill is unballancing by nature; it shouldn't ever even dare to be attempted to be ballanced ever ever ever! get the picture! NEVER BALLANCE FOR SKILL, FOR SKILL IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE UNBALLANCED.
Have a nice day. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, like I said earlier, this isn't about skilled vs unskilled. This is about how the balance is different depending on how skilled the whole server is. (at least that's what it seems to be for me)
Well, we have two modes: 'casual' and 'tournament' -why not keep clanners strictly at their ruleset and casual players likewise? (And not compromise between the two.)
**Edit**
Bummer, should have checked the date first after following link... Luckily it's just 2 weeks old.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ha.ze+May 6 2004, 07:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ha.ze @ May 6 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I disagree, Flayra (even though your the one making the mod ;P). You should take feedback from both groups and balance it accordingly, I dont believe you have to balance it for both players. Skill is a major factor that needs to be ignored in balancing. People <b>will</b> whine once an exellent player repeatedly kills them and gains a seemingly impossible advantage. Such feedback needs to be ignored (like "skulk is too strong because <b><i><u>I</i></u></b> cant hit it).
This game is a balancing nightmare... but in the end we'll pull through. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It just will take time and patience to balance the game, and lets hope its not for either clan play or pub play, just feedback gathered and mixed together from both. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> moron
Actually your moronic for saying moron without an explanation. How is he a moron, I think he and others posting before are right, you will NEVER balance for both sides, there needs to be two seperate modes. Who am I to say this? I am a long time avid player of NS who has recently turned vet. I have been playing NS since 1.0 and have been a moderate player up until about a couple of months ago when two things happened: I joined a clan, and I learned to bhop. These two things changed my NS experience for ever. Now I constantly get "OMG hax " and "your hitbox is messed up", when clearly I don't hack and hitbox errors occur rarely. As others have said, no one can balance for skill and I am certainly not going to stand for stupid noobs accusing me of hacking just because they can't hit me. THere definately needs to be a clear line seperated between vet play and pub play (as was suggested, maybe a detailed variable setting mp_clan). Good luck Flayra.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's frustrating to play a strong game, only to ultimately lose because of an inexperienced commander who doesn't upgrade/drop meds (screaming ineffectually for medpacks is VERY frustrating) quickly enough or a gorge drops OCs when DCs are needed, etc <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Standing screaming for meds sounds more like a noob thing to me.
Secondly, if you're so hot, why aren't you in the chair instead of whining outside it? If you're a good player, the other players will notice, and if you want in the chair then they'll back you up on an Eject Comm vote.
Coming from the other side, its very annoying when 3 clan members hog the chair and drop upgrades purely for themselves.
There are children on BOTH sides of the fence.
Balance is tough, but what can you do? Tilt it towards a stagnant minority elite, cripple the influx of new players, and effectively kill the noob from the community? Big dead servers of the same 5 people over and over is NOT my idea of fun.
On the other hand, do you change it so that bullets home, aliens gets siege cannons, marines get a tank, and everything relies on luck? Where's the challenge in the game? Whats the reward for play?
IMHO if you don't like pub play, then DON'T GO ON PUBS. Make your own server, or go rent a clan one, treat new players like crap and stay out of everyone's way.
If you like the chaos of pub play then by all means JOIN IN. Try comming the newbs. Try going early fade and having some *fun* with the marines.
Pubbers, if you find the randomness LACKING, then train up and go for a clan, move up the skill brackets.
EVERYONE, just remember you were NEW once. You probably WERE as irritating, and you DID do stupid things. You argued with the comm, you whined for meds, rushed the wrong hive, got devoured while carrying the squad gl, got shot in three seconds as a fade, dropped the wrong chamber, etc etc etc.
No game to my knowledge has ever got to the point of perfect balance. The order of the day is informal segregation. Good players find good servers, join the leagues and ladders, perhaps go for limited combinations of weapons. Bad players go for the easy weapons, the big fraghappy servers, the easy kills. You are NOT meant to combine the two.
The game is not perfect, and it NEVER WILL BE. It will be CLOSE to perfect, but never gamer nirvana. People complaining loudly about virtually unsolvable problems will only mire the development of the game.
Cases in point -
AvP - You either choose to not use the disc, or you go to servers that don't use it. Only an utter fool goes to a disc server and then whines about people disc killing them. Go elsewhere, it is NOT FOR YOU.
JKIII - People are spamming force powers! I can't use my haxor leet saber skills! THEN TRY ANOTHER SERVER.
You can't balance everything perfectly, but you can make it workable. Hardened players will ALWAYS unbalance nub games. If you as a player CANNOT or WILL NOT dumb your game down then do NOT go on massive pub servers. If you don't like nubs on your server then LOCK it, and put a link to your website so that you can audition new players to see if they're up to snuff.
Simply player side alterations remove the balance problem, and keep everybody friendly. Pubbers move up the grades when servers hold open days, or perhaps if they catch the attention of a clan. Clanners can relax in pub servers, they can go fade, play the hero on the rine team, anything. Just know your limits. You KNOW you can dice an entire team as an early fade, but whats the fricking point? You're being an insensitive fool and destroying someone else's game. TBH I've played games with very VERY poor players and spent my time as fade just SCARING them. Not causing a huge alien win, just tipping the balance. And I'm a crappy fade.
On the marine team you can probably save the game if you're competent enough. We're not talking ramboing like a nub, we're talking coordinating the team to the Comm's game plan. Hell, if you're so hot, you should be IN the chair.
If both groups stopped borking each others games and began to at least TOLERATE the other, then the vast MAJORITY of NS players - thats US, the people who just get on with the game as opposed to ripping into each other - can avoid the crossfire and the torrent of abuse hurled from either side.
Necrosis: ...I love you. You post is probably the best I've seen concerning this.
When people adjust their skill level (ie. dumb their gameplay down) or playstyle to fit into their surroundings better, it makes the game more fun, which is the main reason why people play pubs. If I'm playing a 2d fighter against someone who isn't that great, I don't play at my best or use a character I'm not familiar with or a different method of playing (unless I am specifically asked to by them) Decimating people over and over and over again just ISN'T fun unless you're a sadistic (insert expletive here). If you're a clanner and you can't do this because you don't want to compromise your skills, go play more scrims against people who are the same. You have no clue how hopeless pubbers feel when they can't touch the "vet" who appeared on their server and proceeded to rule the entire game, destroying them within an instant of LoS.
Join a pub, kick back, relax...just don't go and decimate everyone and everything just because you're skilled enough to. Have fun with the other players, make it a bit of a challenge for the other team sure, but don't go overkill on it.
Comments
Ns is a team game. Get with the program or die. As simple as that.
Buh? How the hell?
Doubt it fares well against a farm of like 6. Rarely do I see just one. Any decnt comm will have at least one turret able to cover others.
This game is a balancing nightmare... but in the end we'll pull through. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It just will take time and patience to balance the game, and lets hope its not for either clan play or pub play, just feedback gathered and mixed together from both.
Ballance for neither of them! Just go by numbers!
Unit A has 100 HP/0 Armor and does 10 Attack.
Unit B has 50 HP and 5 Armor, and does 10 Attack.
They both fire at the same rate and range. Projectile takes time to reach the target.
(Attack - Armor = Damage)
They move at the exact same rate; nothing changes this.
They're in a white, EMPTY box (no cover,) and they're both colored pitch black.
There. Unit A and B are in perfect ballance! If you pit them 1 on 1, un-moving, and shooting at eachother, the one who got the shot off first will win. Otherwise, they'll kill themselves at the exact same time.
Now, as soon as you put "skill" into the equation it becomes hopelessly tangled.
Why? because someone with "skill" may be able to move in a certain way and screw up the other's aim, and get more damage in or someone could miss 40% of their shots or someone could cheat, and get perfect accuracy (with the cheat calculating the distance and crazy stuff like that to shoot in expectation of the enemy)
Skill is unballancing by nature; it shouldn't ever even dare to be attempted to be ballanced ever ever ever!
get the picture!
NEVER BALLANCE FOR SKILL, FOR SKILL IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE UNBALLANCED.
Have a nice day. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
**Edit**
Bummer, should have checked the date first after following link... Luckily it's just 2 weeks old.
This game is a balancing nightmare... but in the end we'll pull through. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It just will take time and patience to balance the game, and lets hope its not for either clan play or pub play, just feedback gathered and mixed together from both. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
moron
It's frustrating to play a strong game, only to ultimately lose because of an inexperienced commander who doesn't upgrade/drop meds (screaming ineffectually for medpacks is VERY frustrating) quickly enough or a gorge drops OCs when DCs are needed, etc
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Standing screaming for meds sounds more like a noob thing to me.
Secondly, if you're so hot, why aren't you in the chair instead of whining outside it? If you're a good player, the other players will notice, and if you want in the chair then they'll back you up on an Eject Comm vote.
Coming from the other side, its very annoying when 3 clan members hog the chair and drop upgrades purely for themselves.
There are children on BOTH sides of the fence.
Balance is tough, but what can you do? Tilt it towards a stagnant minority elite, cripple the influx of new players, and effectively kill the noob from the community? Big dead servers of the same 5 people over and over is NOT my idea of fun.
On the other hand, do you change it so that bullets home, aliens gets siege cannons, marines get a tank, and everything relies on luck? Where's the challenge in the game? Whats the reward for play?
IMHO if you don't like pub play, then DON'T GO ON PUBS. Make your own server, or go rent a clan one, treat new players like crap and stay out of everyone's way.
If you like the chaos of pub play then by all means JOIN IN. Try comming the newbs. Try going early fade and having some *fun* with the marines.
Pubbers, if you find the randomness LACKING, then train up and go for a clan, move up the skill brackets.
EVERYONE, just remember you were NEW once. You probably WERE as irritating, and you DID do stupid things. You argued with the comm, you whined for meds, rushed the wrong hive, got devoured while carrying the squad gl, got shot in three seconds as a fade, dropped the wrong chamber, etc etc etc.
No game to my knowledge has ever got to the point of perfect balance. The order of the day is informal segregation. Good players find good servers, join the leagues and ladders, perhaps go for limited combinations of weapons. Bad players go for the easy weapons, the big fraghappy servers, the easy kills. You are NOT meant to combine the two.
The game is not perfect, and it NEVER WILL BE. It will be CLOSE to perfect, but never gamer nirvana. People complaining loudly about virtually unsolvable problems will only mire the development of the game.
Cases in point -
AvP - You either choose to not use the disc, or you go to servers that don't use it. Only an utter fool goes to a disc server and then whines about people disc killing them. Go elsewhere, it is NOT FOR YOU.
JKIII - People are spamming force powers! I can't use my haxor leet saber skills! THEN TRY ANOTHER SERVER.
You can't balance everything perfectly, but you can make it workable. Hardened players will ALWAYS unbalance nub games. If you as a player CANNOT or WILL NOT dumb your game down then do NOT go on massive pub servers. If you don't like nubs on your server then LOCK it, and put a link to your website so that you can audition new players to see if they're up to snuff.
Simply player side alterations remove the balance problem, and keep everybody friendly. Pubbers move up the grades when servers hold open days, or perhaps if they catch the attention of a clan. Clanners can relax in pub servers, they can go fade, play the hero on the rine team, anything. Just know your limits. You KNOW you can dice an entire team as an early fade, but whats the fricking point? You're being an insensitive fool and destroying someone else's game. TBH I've played games with very VERY poor players and spent my time as fade just SCARING them. Not causing a huge alien win, just tipping the balance. And I'm a crappy fade.
On the marine team you can probably save the game if you're competent enough. We're not talking ramboing like a nub, we're talking coordinating the team to the Comm's game plan. Hell, if you're so hot, you should be IN the chair.
If both groups stopped borking each others games and began to at least TOLERATE the other, then the vast MAJORITY of NS players - thats US, the people who just get on with the game as opposed to ripping into each other - can avoid the crossfire and the torrent of abuse hurled from either side.
Nuff said, I hope.
When people adjust their skill level (ie. dumb their gameplay down) or playstyle to fit into their surroundings better, it makes the game more fun, which is the main reason why people play pubs. If I'm playing a 2d fighter against someone who isn't that great, I don't play at my best or use a character I'm not familiar with or a different method of playing (unless I am specifically asked to by them) Decimating people over and over and over again just ISN'T fun unless you're a sadistic (insert expletive here). If you're a clanner and you can't do this because you don't want to compromise your skills, go play more scrims against people who are the same. You have no clue how hopeless pubbers feel when they can't touch the "vet" who appeared on their server and proceeded to rule the entire game, destroying them within an instant of LoS.
Join a pub, kick back, relax...just don't go and decimate everyone and everything just because you're skilled enough to. Have fun with the other players, make it a bit of a challenge for the other team sure, but don't go overkill on it.