<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 3 2004, 08:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 3 2004, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I fail to see what the problem is... If you dont balance the game according to competative play... the game will go NOWHERE. Do you understand? Right now players can chose to work on their skills improving to the "competative" level. but if you balance the game according to public play... then no one will want to play competatively. thus anyone that has risen to the challenge at getting good at the game will not be rewarded at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole problem seems to be, if you make it pub friendly, competitive play misses out, but if you make competitive play work then pub play doesn't work too well (like now), and you don't get new players to the game. Either one has parts which end up killing the game off, whether it be the 'vets' getting annoyed at wars or the pubbers getting frustrated at why games never work properly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+May 4 2004, 02:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ May 4 2004, 02:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-spetznatz+May 3 2004, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (spetznatz @ May 3 2004, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 3 2004, 08:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 3 2004, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I fail to see what the problem is... If you dont balance the game according to competative play... the game will go NOWHERE. Do you understand? Right now players can chose to work on their skills improving to the "competative" level. but if you balance the game according to public play... then no one will want to play competatively. thus anyone that has risen to the challenge at getting good at the game will not be rewarded at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole problem seems to be, if you make it pub friendly, competitive play misses out, but if you make competitive play work then pub play doesn't work too well (like now), and you don't get new players to the game. Either one has parts which end up killing the game off, whether it be the 'vets' getting annoyed at wars or the pubbers getting frustrated at why games never work properly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> half of the problem with pubs in combat is due to the number of players. not the skill <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Would increasing the standard player count in a competitive match be realistic? It would certainly help bridge the gap if it could be pulled off. I know it can be difficult to gather many people for a match.
<!--QuoteBegin-BlakHawc_+Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlakHawc_ @ Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While i'm not really going to contribute much to the clan - pub divide, since i'm a strict pub player, i can tell you one thing for certain.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+May 3 2004, 06:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ May 3 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nada its not reasonable to compare learning to bhop now to being the first guy to learn how to bhop. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So what Squishy? First of all, if you saw someone bhopping you wouldn't look in the manual, you'd google it. Second... I'm positive that more people search the internet for a bhop tutorial than read the NS manual...
The thing people forget when having these discussions are the bad clanners. Come on, raise your hand my Cal-omega brothers. You know who you are, taking 40+ bullets to kill a skulk, forgetting to hold crouch while you're bhopping and sticking the damned wall, frowning at dismay as delta teams can have their way with you before your first resource tower even gets up. That said, balancing the game for the unskilled players will never happen, because you can always go to some new level of incompetence. You can at least start to make some headway in to balance with skilled clan players.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 4 2004, 03:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 4 2004, 03:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BlakHawc_+Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlakHawc_ @ Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While i'm not really going to contribute much to the clan - pub divide, since i'm a strict pub player, i can tell you one thing for certain.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally agreed. Because of clan play which is, like it or not, more competative, it attracts the better players. If you had a pub game with players from CAL's finest on one team and some pub players on the other, chances are, yes, the clan players will totally wipe the floor with the pubbers.
Yes skilled pub players may seem like an exception, but there are a lot of skilled pubbers out there but they seem to be nearly completely eclipsed by the number of total newbs and average to low skill players.
I'm in no way claiming that all pubbers are highly skilled players, i'm just saying that you shouldn't paint all pubbers with the same brush, we're not all complete newbs.
Bleh nada why do you even care? Having a tutorial or manual of some sort with suggestions from Delta players isn't going to hurt anybody. Im sure theres lots of things we know that most pubbers have no clue about.
<!--QuoteBegin-esuna+May 3 2004, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ May 3 2004, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 4 2004, 03:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 4 2004, 03:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BlakHawc_+Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlakHawc_ @ Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While i'm not really going to contribute much to the clan - pub divide, since i'm a strict pub player, i can tell you one thing for certain.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally agreed. Because of clan play which is, like it or not, more competative, it attracts the better players. If you had a pub game with players from CAL's finest on one team and some pub players on the other, chances are, yes, the clan players will totally wipe the floor with the pubbers.
Yes skilled pub players may seem like an exception, but there are a lot of skilled pubbers out there but they seem to be nearly completely eclipsed by the number of total newbs and average to low skill players.
I'm in no way claiming that all pubbers are highly skilled players, i'm just saying that you shouldn't paint all pubbers with the same brush, we're not all complete newbs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again thats a problem that there is no real solution to, either way someone from either community has a bad experience with the other then go and make it a stereotype.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 3 2004, 08:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 3 2004, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I fail to see what the problem is... If you dont balance the game according to competative play... the game will go NOWHERE. Do you understand? Right now players can chose to work on their skills improving to the "competative" level. but if you balance the game according to public play... then no one will want to play competatively. thus anyone that has risen to the challenge at getting good at the game will not be rewarded at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> weet
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 3 2004, 10:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 3 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BlakHawc_+Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlakHawc_ @ Apr 28 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Apr 28 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While i'm not really going to contribute much to the clan - pub divide, since i'm a strict pub player, i can tell you one thing for certain.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> its not that were there to win
just because we find a different way of loving a game, doesn;t mean we are not having fun
if ns didn't have comptive play, i would be dead ><
i need it, i live on it, it is the way i am. witch will probly never change
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+May 3 2004, 08:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ May 3 2004, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bleh nada why do you even care? Having a tutorial or manual of some sort with suggestions from Delta players isn't going to hurt anybody. Im sure theres lots of things we know that most pubbers have no clue about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't get me wrong, I don't care if a bhop guide is in the manual or not, but I do disagree with people who say its unfair or an exploit just BECAUSE it isn't in the manual. By all means if you want, go ahead and write a bhop tutorial for the NS manual (you or anyone else), I'd have nothing against that, in fact I'd encourage it, just so the newbies can stop whining that it isn't in the manual.
Some people should not even be participating in this discussion if they can't constructively contribute.
Stop insults... stop stereotyping... stop being offended when no offense is intended... offer some constructive advice... don't argue but discuss towards resolution... If not, you'll be wasting yours and everyone else's time. I dearly hope Flayra didn't waste his time on this *.
(i'm sorry if anyone is offended by this, but I'm getting tired of seeing threads lose meaning and cohesion over and over in this forum)
I haven't read all of the pages, so I apologise if this idea has already been suggested and discarded -
A possible solution to the problem of skilled clan players on a pub server against mediocre pub players, and the 'ownage' and 'moanage' that occurs.
It is immpossible to balance variable skill levels that occur in most pub servers, thus I suggest a handicap system that a player incurs on him/herself volenterily - something like this:
Level 1 - novice (new to semi skilled pub players) Level 2 - intermediate - skilled pub playes Level 3 - expert (clan and vet players)
The handicap would be in terms of damage a player can inflict and damage a player can recieve, the higher your level the less damage you inflict and the less damage it takes to kill you.
Ok, this sounds somewhat (needs tweaking) reasonable right ? But how will we convince skilled players to set thier level volenterily? Simple, show the skill level chosen by a player in the scoreboard and next to thier name.
example : (2)SkilledPlayer killed (1)NSplayer
This way a really skilled player has a challenge, can he/she own the others despite the disadvantages ? If so he can even prove it by a sreenie of the scoreboard showing his/her level and the score.
Additionally we can make it that the vet players (those with an icon) cannot display thier icon without choosing Level 3 handicap - vets are after all vets and should be able to beat pubbers even with a disadvantage.
Comments? Does this suggestion have the potentual to solve the problem? I think it even adds some more challenge to the " 'leet playa's " , try owing at a disadvantage.
Agreed. One thing that i think should be insisted on though is better information about some of the things that good players have learned to do. All we can do is point the way and hope that some of todays newbs become good players.
On the other had we can solve this by enforcing auto teambalance. If its on an unadmined combat pub...well why does it matter, tough luck tbh. If youre on an unadmined classic pub then this could destroy the game. To solve this you would have to hope that the leet players stay for the next game, thus allowing you to balance them onto the team that needs them in the next game. Of course if the server has an admin and or a base of regulars then this won't arise. To prevent smurfers going on one team and wreaking havoc then leaving i would suggest that you get auto teamed in the middle of a round anyway if its your first game on the server. When it knows where to put you it wont move you in the middle of the game again. This system is clearly open to exploits and will obviously ruin some strategy in the midst of its execution. All that is left to decide is if this is a price worth paying for imposing some sort of order on pub anarchy. If youre playing on an admined server then this all dosen't matter. I would also strongly suggest that this doesn't kick in unless the particualr player is clearly on another plane from the rest.
I remember my computer freaking up once and my fps going to like 25 and my choke at a steady 20 and my ping was spiking to like 400. It was like pubbing in hard mode and it was great fun because i'd laugh out loud every time I got a kill.
Stacking is certainly a problem that will never go away short of good admining. There's nothing that can -- or more specifically, should -- be done about it. Ultimately, good vs bad players is not an issue. We know who should win in that circumstance and they do win. The issue has more to do with the balance being drastically different depending on the average skill level on the whole server. You can't balance NS effectively when one change means a different result depending on the players' skill level. This is most notable between pubs and competitive matches, thus that difference is being brought up alot in this thread.
We need to bring all NS gamers onto the same playing field to be able to balance it. That means all players must know how to play NS decently. They have to have the knowledge to be competitive.
Part of the solution has to do with an intuitive interface for communication and combat. Teamwork is important in NS. It's one of the most deciding factors for victory. Communication is key to teamwork. They also need to be able to use the abilities of their character to it's fullest without having to learn too many "complicated" tricks.
The other part of the solution has to do with informing the players of some of the more advanced NS information -- not to mention the basics for beginners. Players are very reluctant to search online for information or read long manuals with all the details. It needs to be easily accessible, highly visible, and shouldn't take a long time if it's boring. In-game tutorials with menu links and all, though time consuming for those developing them, offer the best solution to this aspect of the issue, IMO.
Another way to help the situation would be to strip things like bunny-hopping from NS, which the whole community is highly reluctant to do. I understand that and can't possibly support such a move.
1. ns does not exist on 2 levels. it's a spectrum. On one end we have people who have never played a game on a pc ever and on the other we have the big boys.
2. it is also worth noting that the spectrum is very wide at the bottom and very pointed at the top. i remember right after when the Constellation Members were allowed into the Playtesting there was a thread about how any game where romano was a skulk should be thrown out for balencing. (this was after he went 120 something and 7 versus the marine team co_angst) My point here is that if we balence the marines against romano it is all over for the majority of players.
3. Simultaneously, we don't want to let romano be able to be 124 and 7, without a significant amount of effort. otherwise there is not incentive to gain skill and to play the game.
4. the two keys to winning a game of ns are a) skill and b) teamwork. i dont feel that one can reasonably balence skill, as part of the mod. I think that the balence for one skilled player is another skilled player against them. Assuming that the skill levels of the players are not in ordinately different the decidig factor is how well each team works together.
assuming you agree with my first 4 points, which you may not , the conclusion one can draw is that the best way to balence this mod is to get to teams of roughly equal skill and roughly equal team work and let them have at it. this will go on untill we get a statistically significant sample size or 60% of their collective eye's are bleeding. the problem here is taht one cannot put up and nspt pub server and have people come out and play, because it doesn't allow for teams of equal skill and team work. however, in clans we have the opposite problem team work and skill levels can be exceedingly high. To a point that a team which does not practice has no chance of winning. in conclusion i think that the only way to do ns is as one set of rules. this means that the game should be balenced to those who do 2 things play the game as intend ed adn have the broadest player base. The obvious choice is the lower level clan ladders, players who understand the game and who play it reasonably. this cuts out the gods of ns from casting an undue shadow over the comuinity and prevents the nsplayers of the world from making ns the lowest common denominator.
so where do we go. you get a group of players who represent those who know the game well enough to play it competently and who are down for teamwork. you sit them in a room a server whatever and you run the eye bleed test. the result should be a fair game.
ok, thats it its a little Longer than i think it started out being and the grammar no doubt sucks enjoy
Hmmm - as a clan member and admin i see a lot of people playing of varing skills, there really is no way to balance NS unless you decide to listen to only one community but then you block out the other and lose ther support.
The whole point is the designers should listen to both but take the game where they want it to go rather than taking it where either community to go.
There are also a great variety of skill, i have seen a lot of people who cant aim or play as well as i could, i have also seen people who can aim and play better, you will never have a truly balanced match unless you can remove luck, personallity and individuality from the game.
Dont try for a perfect balance just try to have a fun game on pubs and take it just a bit more seriously for clan play.
Hope to see you all playing and having fun.
If anyone wants to come play - ill be on my clans server - Reality Gaming (cba to find the ip). <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I disrespect those, who only disrespect me, or those who should never have gotten respect in the first place.
when it comes to teamplay, it is impossable to balence the game, you can only balence the teams. and every single person here or not hare, has there own unique abilities for themselves, meek, for example, he can knife anyone in DoD, if hes in the mood to run around with a spade, then you better check your ammo and listen. Another example, Al Capone, he has teriffic commanding skills and can co-ordinate a team well.
some people, just dont have abilites like this, and unfortunealy, when they face someone who does, some may just give no respect at all, and them are the ones i beleve you are referring to in your first post.
another thing, Confused!, well made, NS is entirely teamwork, and tactics (leaving the skill part out) if you dont have these 2, then prepare for the worse.
now i must go.
p.s., walking target, sigpic truely own. now my desktop BG
<!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Apr 28 2004, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Apr 28 2004, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, using the terminology "pubbers" and "vets" only causes problems as you have seen. The real issue you are discussing has to do with player skill. The balance of NS is noticeably different with varying levels of skill. (good vs good, bad vs bad) Also notice that this has little to do with good vs bad players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The seperation is not between "skilled" and "unskilled" players. The seperation is between the pubs and the competative/clan scene. It is the understanding of the game that causes the biggest seperation, not the ability to aim at the other player.
About 1/5 of the proposed solutions have been to seperate the two diffrent play styles to balance the game for both and please both ns comunities. This is illogical. How will creating "seperate" game modes help remove "seperation"?
In the games current state their is no way to decrease the games seperation between nubs and non-nubs. It comes down to the games learning curve. CS has been used as a referance in several other locations in this forums. It is not that CS has worked out some awsome system that helps eleminate the seperation in strats between nubs and non-nubs. CS does not have this problem because someone can install CS and learn 95% of the game in about 1 week, then it just comes down to movement, teamwork, timing, and skill. NS is different...WAY diffrent. Becoming good at NS is not just about the aim, skill. Yes skill causes diffrences between nubs and vets, but is it not the main cause of frustration and seperation. The difference in strategy and game understanding is the biggest seperating factor. Litteraly the game is played on a TOTALY diffrent level, with TOTALY diffrent strats.
Now that the problems has been defined, a solution must be defined. The only posible way to competely remove the seperation(like CS has) is to change the learning curve of natural-selection. Players would have to "natural" learn the ways of the competative player. Face it, right now most of us vets learned the ropes from seeing someone else doing it once, or from endless hours of play. If you want the problem fixed, fix this. Right now commanders "naturaly" think turrets are a good defense, amoung other things. The fact is most pubs strats are the strats that come logicaly. The competative strats require a diffrent mindset, which does not come naturaly to most players. Clans dont use tfs, or hand-nades, or elec, or many other things included in the game. Pubbers cant understand this, they seem to think every structure has its use.
How can it be emplemented? I dont know, and personaly I dont think the learning curve should be changed much. Basicaly I like seeing a drastic reward for my time spent. If anything this is the attitude that pub players pick up from vets, it come naturaly. On the otherhand i have never seen a vet say somthing like "no im not going to tell you my leet clan strat because u are nub". Its the competative players that is always TRYING to tell the nubs what to do..lol So in no way are the vets trying to hide the secrets, pub players just simply dont understand how they could be right....afterall it works in pubs.
So really the only way to solve the problem is to change the dynamics of the game so that competative strats are more logical and natural--but i dislike this solution
Although forcing a standard strat is the only "true" solution, other actions can be taken to simply reduce the seperation. Encourage more "vet teach nub" sessions--if the nubs are willing to learn.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+May 6 2004, 01:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ May 6 2004, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Encourage more "vet teach nub" sessions--if the nubs are willing to learn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Finally a sensible solution, the problem is you have to teach them ingame which can take time and can lose you the game while they are learning. That is often why clan or "vets" have a bad opinion of public players.
They want to win rather than play for fun no matter if they are playing PCW or Pub play which leads to them not teaching people because they want to get on with the game and win it as soon as possible.
Hopefully a result of this disccussion will be more attempts to teach people how to play from those who have more experiance and perhaps even dedicated new player servers where new players can go to learn about the game (i wont insult new players by calling them noobs).
Thought for the Day : Instead of talking about the problem look for the solution
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I used to think turrets were good for defense...way back in 1.03. Then I tried skulking and discovered that turrets couldn't track worth crap (back then).
Maybe it's just a bad example but why would it be "natural" for commanders to think turrets are great protection? In RTS games like Starcraft, very rare do players win by building lots of sunken colonies at every outpost and slowly expanding to the enemy base. They win with lots of hydralisks (in other words, they get mobile units that can attack. You don't defend the enemy to death)
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+May 6 2004, 05:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ May 6 2004, 05:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe it's just a bad example but why would it be "natural" for commanders to think turrets are great protection? In RTS games like Starcraft, very rare do players win by building lots of sunken colonies at every outpost and slowly expanding to the enemy base. They win with lots of hydralisks (in other words, they get mobile units that can attack. You don't defend the enemy to death) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but most SC nubs love to photon cannon themselves in anyway. Its probably the same problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-[WWJD]JesusC+May 3 2004, 11:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WWJD]JesusC @ May 3 2004, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing people forget when having these discussions are the bad clanners. Come on, raise your hand my Cal-omega brothers. You know who you are, taking 40+ bullets to kill a skulk, forgetting to hold crouch while you're bhopping and sticking the damned wall, frowning at dismay as delta teams can have their way with you before your first resource tower even gets up. That said, balancing the game for the unskilled players will never happen, because you can always go to some new level of incompetence. You can at least start to make some headway in to balance with skilled clan players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> then the solution is to take out things like bunnyhopping that give skilled players an unfair advantage. Its pointless... seriously. In fact its exploiting a flaw in the physics engine for HL (air speed). If Flayra wanted aliens to go faster he would put something in the game to do so (cerelity). Why must new players learn of how to exploit such things instead of winning through stratigy?
Did you learn how to bunny hop? GJ, now go play Vanilla HL DM or TFC and put your skill to use...
I've only read the first post in this thread, but the answer is that you have to balance for both. You have to take both 'clanners' and 'pubbers' into account at both time and that's quite difficult.
Comments
The whole problem seems to be, if you make it pub friendly, competitive play misses out, but if you make competitive play work then pub play doesn't work too well (like now), and you don't get new players to the game. Either one has parts which end up killing the game off, whether it be the 'vets' getting annoyed at wars or the pubbers getting frustrated at why games never work properly.
The whole problem seems to be, if you make it pub friendly, competitive play misses out, but if you make competitive play work then pub play doesn't work too well (like now), and you don't get new players to the game. Either one has parts which end up killing the game off, whether it be the 'vets' getting annoyed at wars or the pubbers getting frustrated at why games never work properly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
half of the problem with pubs in combat is due to the number of players. not the skill <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would increasing the standard player count in a competitive match be realistic? It would certainly help bridge the gap if it could be pulled off. I know it can be difficult to gather many people for a match.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively
So what Squishy? First of all, if you saw someone bhopping you wouldn't look in the manual, you'd google it. Second... I'm positive that more people search the internet for a bhop tutorial than read the NS manual...
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agreed. Because of clan play which is, like it or not, more competative, it attracts the better players. If you had a pub game with players from CAL's finest on one team and some pub players on the other, chances are, yes, the clan players will totally wipe the floor with the pubbers.
Yes skilled pub players may seem like an exception, but there are a lot of skilled pubbers out there but they seem to be nearly completely eclipsed by the number of total newbs and average to low skill players.
I'm in no way claiming that all pubbers are highly skilled players, i'm just saying that you shouldn't paint all pubbers with the same brush, we're not all complete newbs.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agreed. Because of clan play which is, like it or not, more competative, it attracts the better players. If you had a pub game with players from CAL's finest on one team and some pub players on the other, chances are, yes, the clan players will totally wipe the floor with the pubbers.
Yes skilled pub players may seem like an exception, but there are a lot of skilled pubbers out there but they seem to be nearly completely eclipsed by the number of total newbs and average to low skill players.
I'm in no way claiming that all pubbers are highly skilled players, i'm just saying that you shouldn't paint all pubbers with the same brush, we're not all complete newbs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again thats a problem that there is no real solution to, either way someone from either community has a bad experience with the other then go and make it a stereotype.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> weet
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are exceptions to the rule but most pub players are not equal to those who play it competetively <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
its not that were there to win
just because we find a different way of loving a game, doesn;t mean we are not having fun
if ns didn't have comptive play, i would be dead ><
i need it, i live on it, it is the way i am. witch will probly never change
Don't get me wrong, I don't care if a bhop guide is in the manual or not, but I do disagree with people who say its unfair or an exploit just BECAUSE it isn't in the manual. By all means if you want, go ahead and write a bhop tutorial for the NS manual (you or anyone else), I'd have nothing against that, in fact I'd encourage it, just so the newbies can stop whining that it isn't in the manual.
Stop insults... stop stereotyping... stop being offended when no offense is intended... offer some constructive advice... don't argue but discuss towards resolution... If not, you'll be wasting yours and everyone else's time. I dearly hope Flayra didn't waste his time on this *.
(i'm sorry if anyone is offended by this, but I'm getting tired of seeing threads lose meaning and cohesion over and over in this forum)
A possible solution to the problem of skilled clan players on a pub server against mediocre pub players, and the 'ownage' and 'moanage' that occurs.
It is immpossible to balance variable skill levels that occur in most pub servers, thus I suggest a handicap system that a player incurs on him/herself volenterily - something like this:
Level 1 - novice (new to semi skilled pub players)
Level 2 - intermediate - skilled pub playes
Level 3 - expert (clan and vet players)
The handicap would be in terms of damage a player can inflict and damage a player can recieve, the higher your level the less damage you inflict and the less damage it takes to kill you.
Ok, this sounds somewhat (needs tweaking) reasonable right ? But how will we convince skilled players to set thier level volenterily? Simple, show the skill level chosen by a player in the scoreboard and next to thier name.
example : (2)SkilledPlayer killed (1)NSplayer
This way a really skilled player has a challenge, can he/she own the others despite the disadvantages ? If so he can even prove it by a sreenie of the scoreboard showing his/her level and the score.
Additionally we can make it that the vet players (those with an icon) cannot display thier icon without choosing Level 3 handicap - vets are after all vets and should be able to beat pubbers even with a disadvantage.
Comments? Does this suggestion have the potentual to solve the problem? I think it even adds some more challenge to the " 'leet playa's " , try owing at a disadvantage.
On the other had we can solve this by enforcing auto teambalance. If its on an unadmined combat pub...well why does it matter, tough luck tbh. If youre on an unadmined classic pub then this could destroy the game. To solve this you would have to hope that the leet players stay for the next game, thus allowing you to balance them onto the team that needs them in the next game. Of course if the server has an admin and or a base of regulars then this won't arise.
To prevent smurfers going on one team and wreaking havoc then leaving i would suggest that you get auto teamed in the middle of a round anyway if its your first game on the server. When it knows where to put you it wont move you in the middle of the game again.
This system is clearly open to exploits and will obviously ruin some strategy in the midst of its execution.
All that is left to decide is if this is a price worth paying for imposing some sort of order on pub anarchy. If youre playing on an admined server then this all dosen't matter.
I would also strongly suggest that this doesn't kick in unless the particualr player is clearly on another plane from the rest.
We need to bring all NS gamers onto the same playing field to be able to balance it. That means all players must know how to play NS decently. They have to have the knowledge to be competitive.
Part of the solution has to do with an intuitive interface for communication and combat. Teamwork is important in NS. It's one of the most deciding factors for victory. Communication is key to teamwork. They also need to be able to use the abilities of their character to it's fullest without having to learn too many "complicated" tricks.
The other part of the solution has to do with informing the players of some of the more advanced NS information -- not to mention the basics for beginners. Players are very reluctant to search online for information or read long manuals with all the details. It needs to be easily accessible, highly visible, and shouldn't take a long time if it's boring. In-game tutorials with menu links and all, though time consuming for those developing them, offer the best solution to this aspect of the issue, IMO.
Another way to help the situation would be to strip things like bunny-hopping from NS, which the whole community is highly reluctant to do. I understand that and can't possibly support such a move.
1. ns does not exist on 2 levels. it's a spectrum. On one end we have people who have never played a game on a pc ever and on the other we have the big boys.
2. it is also worth noting that the spectrum is very wide at the bottom and very pointed at the top. i remember right after when the Constellation Members were allowed into the Playtesting there was a thread about how any game where romano was a skulk should be thrown out for balencing. (this was after he went 120 something and 7 versus the marine team co_angst) My point here is that if we balence the marines against romano it is all over for the majority of players.
3. Simultaneously, we don't want to let romano be able to be 124 and 7, without a significant amount of effort. otherwise there is not incentive to gain skill and to play the game.
4. the two keys to winning a game of ns are a) skill and b) teamwork. i dont feel that one can reasonably balence skill, as part of the mod. I think that the balence for one skilled player is another skilled player against them. Assuming that the skill levels of the players are not in ordinately different the decidig factor is how well each team works together.
assuming you agree with my first 4 points, which you may not , the conclusion one can draw is that the best way to balence this mod is to get to teams of roughly equal skill and roughly equal team work and let them have at it. this will go on untill we get a statistically significant sample size or 60% of their collective eye's are bleeding. the problem here is taht one cannot put up and nspt pub server and have people come out and play, because it doesn't allow for teams of equal skill and team work. however, in clans we have the opposite problem team work and skill levels can be exceedingly high. To a point that a team which does not practice has no chance of winning.
in conclusion i think that the only way to do ns is as one set of rules. this means that the game should be balenced to those who do 2 things play the game as intend ed adn have the broadest player base. The obvious choice is the lower level clan ladders, players who understand the game and who play it reasonably. this cuts out the gods of ns from casting an undue shadow over the comuinity and prevents the nsplayers of the world from making ns the lowest common denominator.
so where do we go. you get a group of players who represent those who know the game well enough to play it competently and who are down for teamwork. you sit them in a room a server whatever and you run the eye bleed test. the result should be a fair game.
ok, thats it its a little Longer than i think it started out being and the grammar no doubt sucks enjoy
The whole point is the designers should listen to both but take the game where they want it to go rather than taking it where either community to go.
There are also a great variety of skill, i have seen a lot of people who cant aim or play as well as i could, i have also seen people who can aim and play better, you will never have a truly balanced match unless you can remove luck, personallity and individuality from the game.
Dont try for a perfect balance just try to have a fun game on pubs and take it just a bit more seriously for clan play.
Hope to see you all playing and having fun.
If anyone wants to come play - ill be on my clans server - Reality Gaming (cba to find the ip). <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
when it comes to teamplay, it is impossable to balence the game, you can only balence the teams. and every single person here or not hare, has there own unique abilities for themselves, meek, for example, he can knife anyone in DoD, if hes in the mood to run around with a spade, then you better check your ammo and listen.
Another example, Al Capone, he has teriffic commanding skills and can co-ordinate a team well.
some people, just dont have abilites like this, and unfortunealy, when they face someone who does, some may just give no respect at all, and them are the ones i beleve you are referring to in your first post.
another thing, Confused!, well made, NS is entirely teamwork, and tactics (leaving the skill part out) if you dont have these 2, then prepare for the worse.
now i must go.
p.s., walking target, sigpic truely own. now my desktop BG
The seperation is not between "skilled" and "unskilled" players. The seperation is between the pubs and the competative/clan scene. It is the understanding of the game that causes the biggest seperation, not the ability to aim at the other player.
About 1/5 of the proposed solutions have been to seperate the two diffrent play styles to balance the game for both and please both ns comunities. This is illogical. How will creating "seperate" game modes help remove "seperation"?
In the games current state their is no way to decrease the games seperation between nubs and non-nubs. It comes down to the games learning curve. CS has been used as a referance in several other locations in this forums. It is not that CS has worked out some awsome system that helps eleminate the seperation in strats between nubs and non-nubs. CS does not have this problem because someone can install CS and learn 95% of the game in about 1 week, then it just comes down to movement, teamwork, timing, and skill. NS is different...WAY diffrent. Becoming good at NS is not just about the aim, skill.
Yes skill causes diffrences between nubs and vets, but is it not the main cause of frustration and seperation. The difference in strategy and game understanding is the biggest seperating factor. Litteraly the game is played on a TOTALY diffrent level, with TOTALY diffrent strats.
Now that the problems has been defined, a solution must be defined. The only posible way to competely remove the seperation(like CS has) is to change the learning curve of natural-selection. Players would have to "natural" learn the ways of the competative player. Face it, right now most of us vets learned the ropes from seeing someone else doing it once, or from endless hours of play. If you want the problem fixed, fix this. Right now commanders "naturaly" think turrets are a good defense, amoung other things. The fact is most pubs strats are the strats that come logicaly. The competative strats require a diffrent mindset, which does not come naturaly to most players. Clans dont use tfs, or hand-nades, or elec, or many other things included in the game. Pubbers cant understand this, they seem to think every structure has its use.
How can it be emplemented? I dont know, and personaly I dont think the learning curve should be changed much. Basicaly I like seeing a drastic reward for my time spent. If anything this is the attitude that pub players pick up from vets, it come naturaly. On the otherhand i have never seen a vet say somthing like "no im not going to tell you my leet clan strat because u are nub". Its the competative players that is always TRYING to tell the nubs what to do..lol So in no way are the vets trying to hide the secrets, pub players just simply dont understand how they could be right....afterall it works in pubs.
So really the only way to solve the problem is to change the dynamics of the game so that competative strats are more logical and natural--but i dislike this solution
Although forcing a standard strat is the only "true" solution, other actions can be taken to simply reduce the seperation. Encourage more "vet teach nub" sessions--if the nubs are willing to learn.
Finally a sensible solution, the problem is you have to teach them ingame which can take time and can lose you the game while they are learning. That is often why clan or "vets" have a bad opinion of public players.
They want to win rather than play for fun no matter if they are playing PCW or Pub play which leads to them not teaching people because they want to get on with the game and win it as soon as possible.
Hopefully a result of this disccussion will be more attempts to teach people how to play from those who have more experiance and perhaps even dedicated new player servers where new players can go to learn about the game (i wont insult new players by calling them noobs).
Thought for the Day : Instead of talking about the problem look for the solution
Oh and rafIBT ty for the complement
Maybe it's just a bad example but why would it be "natural" for commanders to think turrets are great protection? In RTS games like Starcraft, very rare do players win by building lots of sunken colonies at every outpost and slowly expanding to the enemy base. They win with lots of hydralisks (in other words, they get mobile units that can attack. You don't defend the enemy to death)
True, but most SC nubs love to photon cannon themselves in anyway. Its probably the same problem.
Maybe if they knew a single skulk can kill a turret without getting hit :/
then the solution is to take out things like bunnyhopping that give skilled players an unfair advantage. Its pointless... seriously. In fact its exploiting a flaw in the physics engine for HL (air speed). If Flayra wanted aliens to go faster he would put something in the game to do so (cerelity). Why must new players learn of how to exploit such things instead of winning through stratigy?
Did you learn how to bunny hop? GJ, now go play Vanilla HL DM or TFC and put your skill to use...