<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 11:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the ideals of leadership and control of the masses is too deeply rooted to be moved<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's like what Hitler said, that different races couldn't live together, their traditions being too deeply rooted to cooperate without their cultures "degenerating." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You misintereperet. He merely said that the way we are brought up makes it nearly impossible to shrug off a capitalist mindset, and ready ourselves for a communist nation. You are implying many things that he never said and never meant to say (as I see it). I tell you this: It would take some change of the magnitude and most likely the style of what Hitler did to change America to communism, or anywhere in the world for that matter, and I have no intention of taking part in any of that. The best way to get a people to believe in one thing is to give them a focus, and the easiest focus is hate. Find another way, and I'll consider, until then, I'll go live my life in another direction, thank you.
i do not disagree that people's ideals about nationality can change, that was not my point. you still are not looking deep enough for the root cause of the problem, i think asal understands it a little better, but still not quite there.
my point, let's see if i can make it as clear as possible: humans have never been without a leader. humans attempting to break free of tyranical rule inevitably set up another tyranical government with another leader. humans are bred to think that we need a leader. all of us. the difference between that core ideal and the ideal of nationalism or loyalty to capitalism is this: the fact that we have never been without someone to lead us, and that if we tried, capitalists would survive, spreading their disease of power hunger and greed throughout any communist society that tried to show its face. you can not tell a person that we are going to make a government without a ruler to guide our progress, they would think you mad, and would then attempt to integrate themselves with the government to gain the largest possible gain. and these "infiltrators" we will call them, would be impossible to find. communism goes against hundreds of thousands of years of civilization. we can over come nationalism(a mere couple hundred years old at the oldest), and capitalism(which, in truth, has only been around about as long as communism as an ideal), we can even overcome tyrants. but we cannot over the greed and powerlust that is so rampant in our society.
I disagree. It CAN be overcome, but the gains would be far lesser than the losses, and for you to succeed you would need to shape the WHOLE world at one, a global revolution. You cannot say "I want to make Michigan communist, for the world will follow in its glorious example" because that wouldnt' work, the greed would spread from outside. The lack of honor, integrity, and the ANIMAL need for survival of the race are no longer there. These are instead replaced by ambition, greed, and the CIVILIZED need for survival of the self. To clean the slate, you need a catastrophe, or something that the WHOLE RACE can focus on, a grand agenda, and you need to come on it all at once. Only a catastrophe or provable, unavoidable, and impending doom can bring the race together like that. GG communism.
<!--QuoteBegin--Asal The Unforgiving+Oct 29 2003, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asal The Unforgiving @ Oct 29 2003, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I disagree. It CAN be overcome, but the gains would be far lesser than the losses, and for you to succeed you would need to shape the WHOLE world at one, a global revolution. You cannot say "I want to make Michigan communist, for the world will follow in its glorious example" because that wouldnt' work, the greed would spread from outside. The lack of honor, integrity, and the ANIMAL need for survival of the race are no longer there. These are instead replaced by ambition, greed, and the CIVILIZED need for survival of the self. To clean the slate, you need a catastrophe, or something that the WHOLE RACE can focus on, a grand agenda, and you need to come on it all at once. Only a catastrophe or provable, unavoidable, and impending doom can bring the race together like that. GG communism. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 29 2003, 05:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 29 2003, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Asal The Unforgiving+Oct 29 2003, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asal The Unforgiving @ Oct 29 2003, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I disagree. It CAN be overcome, but the gains would be far lesser than the losses, and for you to succeed you would need to shape the WHOLE world at one, a global revolution. You cannot say "I want to make Michigan communist, for the world will follow in its glorious example" because that wouldnt' work, the greed would spread from outside. The lack of honor, integrity, and the ANIMAL need for survival of the race are no longer there. These are instead replaced by ambition, greed, and the CIVILIZED need for survival of the self. To clean the slate, you need a catastrophe, or something that the WHOLE RACE can focus on, a grand agenda, and you need to come on it all at once. Only a catastrophe or provable, unavoidable, and impending doom can bring the race together like that. GG communism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know how you can say that. So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse, and China is practically going in on making that 2. In fact, what are the most prosperous countries in the world? Cuba? Korea? China? Taiwan seems to be doing pretty good for themselves ever since they renounced communism and *gasp* turned to capitalism
Your posts indicate clearly that you are not reading my posts because contained in them are the answers to most of your disagreements with me. Rather than restate myself I am just going to ask you to please read what I've already written in this thread, before arguing with me in this thread. I'm sorry if I sound like an ****, but it's taken me a lot of time to write everything here already and I've been pretty busy lately.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Oct 29 2003, 05:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Oct 29 2003, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 29 2003, 05:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 29 2003, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Asal The Unforgiving+Oct 29 2003, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asal The Unforgiving @ Oct 29 2003, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I disagree. It CAN be overcome, but the gains would be far lesser than the losses, and for you to succeed you would need to shape the WHOLE world at one, a global revolution. You cannot say "I want to make Michigan communist, for the world will follow in its glorious example" because that wouldnt' work, the greed would spread from outside. The lack of honor, integrity, and the ANIMAL need for survival of the race are no longer there. These are instead replaced by ambition, greed, and the CIVILIZED need for survival of the self. To clean the slate, you need a catastrophe, or something that the WHOLE RACE can focus on, a grand agenda, and you need to come on it all at once. Only a catastrophe or provable, unavoidable, and impending doom can bring the race together like that. GG communism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know how you can say that. So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse, and China is practically going in on making that 2. In fact, what are the most prosperous countries in the world? Cuba? Korea? China? Taiwan seems to be doing pretty good for themselves ever since they renounced communism and *gasp* turned to capitalism <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's set a few things straight here:
1) Singapore is NOT a democracy. Freedom of speech is limited, one party has ruled the country practically since it became independend 2) Communism is not the adversary of capitalism. Capitalism is a market system, communism is a gouvernment system
As for the prosperity issue: Yes, it has been proven that democracies are on the whole wealthier than non-democracies. The question that should be asked however, and which still is the topic of debate among political scientists, is whether democracy caused wealth, or wealth brought democracy. It is for sure that to have democracy, one should first attain a certain level of wellfare in a country: People should be able to read newspapers (literate), people should be able to vote (infrastructure), and people should be economically independent from the people they can vote for.
China still has a communistic gouvernment system, but IS allowing free trade insome of the eastern coastal provinces. This cannot be seen though as a downfall of communism (see point 2). Actually, repressive measure have become even worse during the last few years.* O, and China, being communistic, is one of the fastest growing world economies, and will surpass the US before the half of this century is past.
*Although repressiveness of a regime is not a part of idealistic communism, it is a part of its reality. Central redistribution of goods and services means the concentration of power. As this organisation does not have a real adversary in a parliament, it can easily abuse its powers. The people have too few opportunities to raise their voices,which will result in riots (because the bosses interests are not the same as the cicilians (don't you just love it when marxist principles canbe used to prove marxism is wrong <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). Centralist organ will want to consolidate its power,and therefore uses the (relatively new) repressive devices.
<!--QuoteBegin--Urza+Oct 29 2003, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Urza @ Oct 29 2003, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2) Communism is not the adversary of capitalism. Capitalism is a market system, communism is a gouvernment system
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you, my dear frind, have been misinformed. communism is an economic/"market" system first, government based on that system second. i agree that a comparison of "adversary" cannot be fully placed between communism and capitalism or democracy, but it is closer to say that communism and capitalism are adversaries than to say that communism and democracy are adversaries. obviously you haven't read my earlier posts, where i defined exactly what each of these were and why they can not be compared, please go back and look.
Urainium-235: communism has never existed on this earth, therefore there is no "score" of 1 - 0 capitalism vs communism. sorry, no.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 29 2003, 05:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 29 2003, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *sigh* You misinterperet. I did not say that we need more than that to survive. I merely agree with johnjacob that the current system has been in place too long for it to be shaken easily, and I was stating a few circumstances in which case a change may take place. We have too long lived under a capitalist system for a communist system to be viable at this point. Either you take an equal amount of time to take down capitalism as it took to put up, or you need something worldwide and drastic that will change the way people think on a very base level, and then you need to start over with the thought of the good of the many as greater than the good of the one.
P.S. I have taken neither side, so do not flame me, please.
That all sounds right Asal but people aren't 300 years old, we don't have "all of capitalism" within us, most people don't even have political views, they couldn't care less about human nature--they just live day to day. Your argument just doesn't make any sense (to me). Feudalism didn't take 3000 years to dismantle either!
If you and johnjacob would put things together into one concrete post outlining your perspective and on what science you are drawing it, then I might be able to argue. But the reason I'm not really arguing against you is not because I don't want to. It's because I don't understand your perspective.
That doesn't mean that it's a confused, muddled mess. I'm looking forward to a big, scientifically based post from you guys and then I'll either give an equally scientific refutation, or I'll come over to your side.
<!--QuoteBegin--the johnjacob+Oct 29 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the johnjacob @ Oct 29 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> communism has never existed on this earth, therefore there is no "score" of 1 - 0 capitalism vs communism. sorry, no. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No 'TRUE' communism has existed, <b>because it is impossible</b>. The closest you get is the aformentioned countries, and they're going / have gone down the proverbial shitter.
This topic is going no where. It's realists vs. idiot- err... 'revolutionists' or whatever stupid name you want to give yourself.
EDIT: You know what? Now that I think about this, this should be locked for lack of experience. Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money, so frankly, until you are, you haven't any right to make a comment on whether prefer making money by working hard and thusly getting rich, or having your hard work feed some **** you don't even know. If your parents are getting all the money for you, then why would you complain, aside for the sake of just finding something to complain about?
Look, the point I'm making, is that if you don't have any experience in a Capitalist economy... then... why are you even reading this thread?
Imagine life where everyone is on welfare. That's communism. I hate welfare. If you're too poor to eat, you deserve to starve and die. If you're too feeble to work, you deserve to die. Trite? Yes. Cruel? Possibly. Realistic? Yes. Life's too short to have other people profit from my work.
you say we don't deserve to argue because you think that we're kids. that's like saying people don't deserve a say in politics because, not being politicians, they don't know how things are. why bother argue if you don't accept our viewpoints with some maturity and respect for the idea of debate?
well let me say something, if you aren't going to read what i said, maybe <b>you</b> don't deserve to argue, because you aren't listening to me. you are just going to make me repeat myself.. and turn this thread into 50 pages of the <b>same thing being said over and over</b>.
the idea here is to argue our views. if you want to silence us with force, it just proves that you can't silence us with a proper argument that disproves ours.. and you are giving a bad face to all of your fellow capitalists here, who I will continue to respect. but until you actually read my argument, you aren't contributing anything to this thread. you're just wasting time with an argument that i've already responded to.
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Waaaaaaaaa... capitalists killed my mother <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell does this prove? Capitalists are tools of the devil? Capitalism encourages slaughtering millions of people?
Look Rev, until a real communism exists, it's impossible to support it now, isn't it. Now considering human nature won't allow a communism to exist, keep drawing hammers and sickles on your homework as you hand them in to teacher.
I demand that uranium-235 be removed from this forum because he is hindering what was (by me) a mature attempt at expounding upon my ideals, and I seriously apologize if I insulted him, but I feel that his behavior and disrespect for the idea of ideal debate (in which both sides accept that they could be wrong) is ruinous to this thread.
Don't worry--I understand that there are many capitalists who are serious about their views. I am always happy to argue with someone who wishes to argue their views.. but not to repeat myself to a joker who attacks me and not my argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I demand that uranium-235 be removed from this forum because he is hindering what was (by me) a mature attempt at expounding upon my ideals, and I seriously apologize if I insulted him, but I feel that his behavior and disrespect for the idea of ideal debate (in which both sides accept that they could be wrong) is ruinous to this thread.
Don't worry--I understand that there are many capitalists who are serious about their views. I am always happy to argue with someone who wishes to argue their views.. but not to repeat myself to a joker who attacks me and not my argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have attacked your argument by simply stating you have nothing to base that argument on, aside from some fictional paradox you keep in your head.
<b>PEOPLE: GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD: COMMUNISM CAN NOT, AND WILL NOT EVER EXIST SO LONG AS HUMAN BEINGS REMAIN AS THEY ARE.</b>
Here's an example right here: I live in America, a capitalist economy (Actually, it's not a true capitalism) and I like making money I can spend on stuff for MYSELF. Despite this, some people get it in their greedy heads that it can somehow be better, and support a paradoxial government. Now what stops such 'idealists' from doing the same in a communism? Aside from the fact that a communism is infiniately more fragile then a capitalism, which in itself, will, through a Darwinian process, weed out the people who want to magically run things differently, HOW WOULD A COMMUNISM SURVIVE?
thanks revolutionary, i was about to suggest the same thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this comment was both unnecessary, and untrue, i know for a fact that both me and asal have been out in the world and understand what we are talking about, not sure about revolutionary, but by the way he forms his posts i get the impression he has an understanding about what life is about. debate is not about personally attacking someone's lifestyle, it is about disagreement in ideals and settling that disagreement without injuring either party's dignity.
<!--QuoteBegin--the johnjacob+Oct 29 2003, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the johnjacob @ Oct 29 2003, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thanks revolutionary, i was about to suggest the same thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this comment was both unnecessary, and untrue, i know for a fact that both me and asal have been out in the world and understand what we are talking about, not sure about revolutionary, but by the way he forms his posts i get the impression he has an understanding about what life is about. debate is not about personally attacking someone's lifestyle, it is about disagreement in ideals and settling that disagreement without injuring either party's dignity.
that kind of "flaming" is not required. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That wasn't a flame, it was a fact. How many people did you know in high school that always screamed 'America sucks!'
I was going to reply to that stuff U-235, but then I realized I already did, a couple days ago, and unless you go into the previous pages of this thread and read what I'd written, you should just stop it because i already replied to that. You may have already killed what was a good thread. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That wasn't a flame, it was a fact. How many people did you know in high school that always screamed 'America sucks!' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THAT was a flame. I'm an American and I love my country. I just hate the system that's keeping the people down and that says Americans are better than foreigners.
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 09:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was going to reply to that stuff U-235, but then I realized I already did, a couple days ago, and unless you go into the previous pages of this thread and read what I'd written, you should just stop it because i already replied to that. You may have already killed what was a good thread. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You said that to ignore the USSR's plight was to ignore history, but you completely failed to answer the first part of the statement, and that was that human nature does not allow communism to exist.
My god, why don't we just start threads saying 'We should all live on the sun'. It's the same thing: It'll never happen, if it did, it would never succeed, and in the end, everyone involved will just end up getting burned to ashes with the rest of the project.
And how is Capitalism 'keeping everyone down'? You feel SORRY for the boozehounds living off welfare?
wrong: i answered everything, YOU failed to read half of my posts
also, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look Rev, until a real communism exists, it's impossible to support it now, isn't it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you could have said the same thing about capitalism, when we still lived under kings.
I read the whole post twice and all you did was talk about the history of Russia for a page and a half, then went on to something else non-related.
EDIT: Unless you're talking about the 'What was the motivation for cavemen... peasents...'
In that case, their motivation was to survive. If you didn't pay your lord, your lord took your land, kicked you out, you starved. You didn't help your tribe, the tribe wouldn't help you, kick you out, you die.
Both are very bad, very unrealistic examples of how a communism would somehow be better.
Communism is 'I scratch your back, you scratch mine.' Human nature says 'You didn't scratch my back like I wanted it scratch, I'm not scratching yours.' Communism would require the entire PLANET to 100% work with the system. That won't happen. I gaurentee it. Capitalism is 'I scratch your back, you give me services with which I can use to purchase delux backscratchers and sell them. Then all the people that are using their hands to scratch backs will get forced out of business, as everyone will want mine, and I get rich.' Capitalism just requires a small population not even working together, but just simply working within a frame of simple rules to follow, which aren't even realistically RULES. You break the rules, people won't deal with you anymore, and you're poor. Capitalism encourages you to do your best. More work = more money. What's communism encourage? It teaches that no matter how much or little work I do, I'm still getting my share.
A) Human nature did not bring down the Soviet Union: bureaucrats in control dissolved it, and used their riches to become the new generation of businessmen, who have made things even worse.
B) Bureaucracy is not Communism. The USSR was neither democratic nor socialist--and therefore not Communist.
C) Where did the bureaucrats come from? They became the rulers of the USSR after Stalin's rise to power.
How did Stalin rise to power? In the chaos of the civil war, the nation was almost destroyed; democratic rights were suspended and the bureaucracy grew.
Who was responsible for the civil war? The capitalist nations of the world that blockaded and invaded the USSR, and supplied funds and arms to the Whites.
Therefore, the international bourgeoisie and its armies were responsible for the destruction of the USSR. Human nature had nothing to do with it. It was such a threat, and it did indeed help to inspire revolutionary movements in the rest of the world, that they had to kill it. With Stalin in power it was not Communist: it offered no revolutionary threat that could inspire revolution within their own borders, just a military threat outside their borders. As much threat as any other capitalist country.
So to sum up, the USSR was an example of how the bourgeoisie knows that the human nature thing is a sham anyway, that's why they worked so hard eliminating this example of workers' revolution. To say that human nature brought down the USSR, is incorrect. Even Stalinism, which was leeching off of a planned economy, helped the Russians: the USSR turned into an industrial superpower; peoples' lives improved. The former Communist Party still has large support, something like 30% power in parliament.
that's what i was saying man! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A) Human nature did not bring down the Soviet Union: bureaucrats in control dissolved it, and used their riches to become the new generation of businessmen, who have made things even worse.
B) The USSR was ... not Communist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You contradicted your first point with the second.
I never even mentioned the SSR. I'm talking about the paradoxial communism in general. Why is it a paradox? Because humans, by nature, hell ALL animals like having things. You take a ball away from a dog, it'll want it back, even if it wasn't using it. Did I say human nature caused the collapse of the SSR? No, I'm saying it's the reason communism will never happen, and it's the same thing... whats-his-name said as well, both of which you've yet to answer!
EDIT: Look, I agree a perfect global communism would solve a lot of problems. But there's a difference: I'm seeing the REALITY of it, that reality being that communism can not ever exist, and you're playing the 'blind optimist' who is only seeing the good in it, without any bearing on the reality of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 09:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you're lying, or you've forgotten what you said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And I mentioned China, north korea, Cuba, etc.
All of which embraced the IDEALS of communism and failed. How many failures did it take to embrace the ideals of capitalism?
Unelected leaders and bureaucrats that get paid for not working are embracing the ideals of communism? i said it before about Stalin and i'll say it again about Mao, Castro, etc., they are not communists.
anyway. your other argument is hinging on a misunderstanding of communism, and i have a LOT of work to get into tonight, it's been a while already.. answring that is going to take a long time. so just give me a few hours and then i can respond to your other point, about the basic ideas of communism, something i am glad you brought up. but now i have to get busy, hope you'll understand, thanks
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 29 2003, 09:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 29 2003, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unelected leaders and bureaucrats that get paid for not working are embracing the ideals of communism? i said it before about Stalin and i'll say it again about Mao, Castro, etc., they are not communists. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And that's human nature...
One of us isn't getting the point, and I'm not sure if it's both or not...
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Oct 29 2003, 09:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Oct 29 2003, 09:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--the johnjacob+Oct 29 2003, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the johnjacob @ Oct 29 2003, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thanks revolutionary, i was about to suggest the same thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this comment was both unnecessary, and untrue, i know for a fact that both me and asal have been out in the world and understand what we are talking about, not sure about revolutionary, but by the way he forms his posts i get the impression he has an understanding about what life is about. debate is not about personally attacking someone's lifestyle, it is about disagreement in ideals and settling that disagreement without injuring either party's dignity.
that kind of "flaming" is not required. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That wasn't a flame, it was a fact. How many people did you know in high school that always screamed 'America sucks!' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Me, and rallied around 150 school mates and 4 teachers behind me.
Comments
It's like what Hitler said, that different races couldn't live together, their traditions being too deeply rooted to cooperate without their cultures "degenerating." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misintereperet. He merely said that the way we are brought up makes it nearly impossible to shrug off a capitalist mindset, and ready ourselves for a communist nation. You are implying many things that he never said and never meant to say (as I see it). I tell you this: It would take some change of the magnitude and most likely the style of what Hitler did to change America to communism, or anywhere in the world for that matter, and I have no intention of taking part in any of that. The best way to get a people to believe in one thing is to give them a focus, and the easiest focus is hate. Find another way, and I'll consider, until then, I'll go live my life in another direction, thank you.
my point, let's see if i can make it as clear as possible:
humans have never been without a leader. humans attempting to break free of tyranical rule inevitably set up another tyranical government with another leader. humans are bred to think that we need a leader. all of us. the difference between that core ideal and the ideal of nationalism or loyalty to capitalism is this: the fact that we have never been without someone to lead us, and that if we tried, capitalists would survive, spreading their disease of power hunger and greed throughout any communist society that tried to show its face. you can not tell a person that we are going to make a government without a ruler to guide our progress, they would think you mad, and would then attempt to integrate themselves with the government to gain the largest possible gain. and these "infiltrators" we will call them, would be impossible to find. communism goes against hundreds of thousands of years of civilization. we can over come nationalism(a mere couple hundred years old at the oldest), and capitalism(which, in truth, has only been around about as long as communism as an ideal), we can even overcome tyrants. but we cannot over the greed and powerlust that is so rampant in our society.
You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism.
You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how you can say that. So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse, and China is practically going in on making that 2. In fact, what are the most prosperous countries in the world? Cuba? Korea? China? Taiwan seems to be doing pretty good for themselves ever since they renounced communism and *gasp* turned to capitalism
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cuba? Korea? China?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are all bourgeois nationalist regimes; China and Cuba are hardly even Stalinist anymore. More like capitalism under a red flag.
You only need food, water, shelter to survive, so being communist does not end civilizaiton, and your a fool if you believe capitalism is the way of the future. Communism may not be either, but dear god it is NOT capitalism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how you can say that. So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse, and China is practically going in on making that 2. In fact, what are the most prosperous countries in the world? Cuba? Korea? China? Taiwan seems to be doing pretty good for themselves ever since they renounced communism and *gasp* turned to capitalism <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's set a few things straight here:
1) Singapore is NOT a democracy. Freedom of speech is limited, one party has ruled the country practically since it became independend
2) Communism is not the adversary of capitalism. Capitalism is a market system, communism is a gouvernment system
As for the prosperity issue: Yes, it has been proven that democracies are on the whole wealthier than non-democracies. The question that should be asked however, and which still is the topic of debate among political scientists, is whether democracy caused wealth, or wealth brought democracy. It is for sure that to have democracy, one should first attain a certain level of wellfare in a country: People should be able to read newspapers (literate), people should be able to vote (infrastructure), and people should be economically independent from the people they can vote for.
China still has a communistic gouvernment system, but IS allowing free trade insome of the eastern coastal provinces. This cannot be seen though as a downfall of communism (see point 2). Actually, repressive measure have become even worse during the last few years.* O, and China, being communistic, is one of the fastest growing world economies, and will surpass the US before the half of this century is past.
*Although repressiveness of a regime is not a part of idealistic communism, it is a part of its reality. Central redistribution of goods and services means the concentration of power. As this organisation does not have a real adversary in a parliament, it can easily abuse its powers. The people have too few opportunities to raise their voices,which will result in riots (because the bosses interests are not the same as the cicilians (don't you just love it when marxist principles canbe used to prove marxism is wrong <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). Centralist organ will want to consolidate its power,and therefore uses the (relatively new) repressive devices.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you, my dear frind, have been misinformed. communism is an economic/"market" system first, government based on that system second. i agree that a comparison of "adversary" cannot be fully placed between communism and capitalism or democracy, but it is closer to say that communism and capitalism are adversaries than to say that communism and democracy are adversaries. obviously you haven't read my earlier posts, where i defined exactly what each of these were and why they can not be compared, please go back and look.
Urainium-235:
communism has never existed on this earth, therefore there is no "score" of 1 - 0 capitalism vs communism. sorry, no.
Another thing people dont realize is that we could have a communistc economy within a democratic government.
*sigh* You misinterperet. I did not say that we need more than that to survive. I merely agree with johnjacob that the current system has been in place too long for it to be shaken easily, and I was stating a few circumstances in which case a change may take place. We have too long lived under a capitalist system for a communist system to be viable at this point. Either you take an equal amount of time to take down capitalism as it took to put up, or you need something worldwide and drastic that will change the way people think on a very base level, and then you need to start over with the thought of the good of the many as greater than the good of the one.
P.S. I have taken neither side, so do not flame me, please.
If you and johnjacob would put things together into one concrete post outlining your perspective and on what science you are drawing it, then I might be able to argue. But the reason I'm not really arguing against you is not because I don't want to. It's because I don't understand your perspective.
That doesn't mean that it's a confused, muddled mess. I'm looking forward to a big, scientifically based post from you guys and then I'll either give an equally scientific refutation, or I'll come over to your side.
No 'TRUE' communism has existed, <b>because it is impossible</b>. The closest you get is the aformentioned countries, and they're going / have gone down the proverbial shitter.
This topic is going no where. It's realists vs. idiot- err... 'revolutionists' or whatever stupid name you want to give yourself.
EDIT: You know what? Now that I think about this, this should be locked for lack of experience. Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money, so frankly, until you are, you haven't any right to make a comment on whether prefer making money by working hard and thusly getting rich, or having your hard work feed some **** you don't even know. If your parents are getting all the money for you, then why would you complain, aside for the sake of just finding something to complain about?
Look, the point I'm making, is that if you don't have any experience in a Capitalist economy... then... why are you even reading this thread?
Imagine life where everyone is on welfare. That's communism. I hate welfare. If you're too poor to eat, you deserve to starve and die. If you're too feeble to work, you deserve to die. Trite? Yes. Cruel? Possibly. Realistic? Yes. Life's too short to have other people profit from my work.
well let me say something, if you aren't going to read what i said, maybe <b>you</b> don't deserve to argue, because you aren't listening to me. you are just going to make me repeat myself.. and turn this thread into 50 pages of the <b>same thing being said over and over</b>.
the idea here is to argue our views. if you want to silence us with force, it just proves that you can't silence us with a proper argument that disproves ours.. and you are giving a bad face to all of your fellow capitalists here, who I will continue to respect. but until you actually read my argument, you aren't contributing anything to this thread. you're just wasting time with an argument that i've already responded to.
What the hell does this prove? Capitalists are tools of the devil? Capitalism encourages slaughtering millions of people?
Look Rev, until a real communism exists, it's impossible to support it now, isn't it. Now considering human nature won't allow a communism to exist, keep drawing hammers and sickles on your homework as you hand them in to teacher.
Don't worry--I understand that there are many capitalists who are serious about their views. I am always happy to argue with someone who wishes to argue their views.. but not to repeat myself to a joker who attacks me and not my argument.
Don't worry--I understand that there are many capitalists who are serious about their views. I am always happy to argue with someone who wishes to argue their views.. but not to repeat myself to a joker who attacks me and not my argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have attacked your argument by simply stating you have nothing to base that argument on, aside from some fictional paradox you keep in your head.
<b>PEOPLE: GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD: COMMUNISM CAN NOT, AND WILL NOT EVER EXIST SO LONG AS HUMAN BEINGS REMAIN AS THEY ARE.</b>
Here's an example right here: I live in America, a capitalist economy (Actually, it's not a true capitalism) and I like making money I can spend on stuff for MYSELF. Despite this, some people get it in their greedy heads that it can somehow be better, and support a paradoxial government. Now what stops such 'idealists' from doing the same in a communism? Aside from the fact that a communism is infiniately more fragile then a capitalism, which in itself, will, through a Darwinian process, weed out the people who want to magically run things differently, HOW WOULD A COMMUNISM SURVIVE?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this comment was both unnecessary, and untrue, i know for a fact that both me and asal have been out in the world and understand what we are talking about, not sure about revolutionary, but by the way he forms his posts i get the impression he has an understanding about what life is about. debate is not about personally attacking someone's lifestyle, it is about disagreement in ideals and settling that disagreement without injuring either party's dignity.
that kind of "flaming" is not required.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this comment was both unnecessary, and untrue, i know for a fact that both me and asal have been out in the world and understand what we are talking about, not sure about revolutionary, but by the way he forms his posts i get the impression he has an understanding about what life is about. debate is not about personally attacking someone's lifestyle, it is about disagreement in ideals and settling that disagreement without injuring either party's dignity.
that kind of "flaming" is not required. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wasn't a flame, it was a fact. How many people did you know in high school that always screamed 'America sucks!'
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That wasn't a flame, it was a fact. How many people did you know in high school that always screamed 'America sucks!' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THAT was a flame. I'm an American and I love my country. I just hate the system that's keeping the people down and that says Americans are better than foreigners.
You said that to ignore the USSR's plight was to ignore history, but you completely failed to answer the first part of the statement, and that was that human nature does not allow communism to exist.
My god, why don't we just start threads saying 'We should all live on the sun'. It's the same thing: It'll never happen, if it did, it would never succeed, and in the end, everyone involved will just end up getting burned to ashes with the rest of the project.
And how is Capitalism 'keeping everyone down'? You feel SORRY for the boozehounds living off welfare?
also, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look Rev, until a real communism exists, it's impossible to support it now, isn't it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you could have said the same thing about capitalism, when we still lived under kings.
EDIT: Unless you're talking about the 'What was the motivation for cavemen... peasents...'
In that case, their motivation was to survive. If you didn't pay your lord, your lord took your land, kicked you out, you starved. You didn't help your tribe, the tribe wouldn't help you, kick you out, you die.
Both are very bad, very unrealistic examples of how a communism would somehow be better.
Communism is 'I scratch your back, you scratch mine.' Human nature says 'You didn't scratch my back like I wanted it scratch, I'm not scratching yours.' Communism would require the entire PLANET to 100% work with the system. That won't happen. I gaurentee it. Capitalism is 'I scratch your back, you give me services with which I can use to purchase delux backscratchers and sell them. Then all the people that are using their hands to scratch backs will get forced out of business, as everyone will want mine, and I get rich.' Capitalism just requires a small population not even working together, but just simply working within a frame of simple rules to follow, which aren't even realistically RULES. You break the rules, people won't deal with you anymore, and you're poor. Capitalism encourages you to do your best. More work = more money. What's communism encourage? It teaches that no matter how much or little work I do, I'm still getting my share.
A) Human nature did not bring down the Soviet Union: bureaucrats in control dissolved it, and used their riches to become the new generation of businessmen, who have made things even worse.
B) Bureaucracy is not Communism. The USSR was neither democratic nor socialist--and therefore not Communist.
C) Where did the bureaucrats come from? They became the rulers of the USSR after Stalin's rise to power.
How did Stalin rise to power? In the chaos of the civil war, the nation was almost destroyed; democratic rights were suspended and the bureaucracy grew.
Who was responsible for the civil war? The capitalist nations of the world that blockaded and invaded the USSR, and supplied funds and arms to the Whites.
Therefore, the international bourgeoisie and its armies were responsible for the destruction of the USSR. Human nature had nothing to do with it. It was such a threat, and it did indeed help to inspire revolutionary movements in the rest of the world, that they had to kill it. With Stalin in power it was not Communist: it offered no revolutionary threat that could inspire revolution within their own borders, just a military threat outside their borders. As much threat as any other capitalist country.
So to sum up, the USSR was an example of how the bourgeoisie knows that the human nature thing is a sham anyway, that's why they worked so hard eliminating this example of workers' revolution. To say that human nature brought down the USSR, is incorrect. Even Stalinism, which was leeching off of a planned economy, helped the Russians: the USSR turned into an industrial superpower; peoples' lives improved. The former Communist Party still has large support, something like 30% power in parliament.
that's what i was saying man! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
B) The USSR was ... not Communist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You contradicted your first point with the second.
I never even mentioned the SSR. I'm talking about the paradoxial communism in general. Why is it a paradox? Because humans, by nature, hell ALL animals like having things. You take a ball away from a dog, it'll want it back, even if it wasn't using it. Did I say human nature caused the collapse of the SSR? No, I'm saying it's the reason communism will never happen, and it's the same thing... whats-his-name said as well, both of which you've yet to answer!
EDIT: Look, I agree a perfect global communism would solve a lot of problems. But there's a difference: I'm seeing the REALITY of it, that reality being that communism can not ever exist, and you're playing the 'blind optimist' who is only seeing the good in it, without any bearing on the reality of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far we're 1 for 0 on communist / capitalist economic collapse<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I mentioned China, north korea, Cuba, etc.
All of which embraced the IDEALS of communism and failed. How many failures did it take to embrace the ideals of capitalism?
anyway. your other argument is hinging on a misunderstanding of communism, and i have a LOT of work to get into tonight, it's been a while already.. answring that is going to take a long time. so just give me a few hours and then i can respond to your other point, about the basic ideas of communism, something i am glad you brought up. but now i have to get busy, hope you'll understand, thanks
And that's human nature...
One of us isn't getting the point, and I'm not sure if it's both or not...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of you who support communism aren't even on your own yet, making money<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this comment was both unnecessary, and untrue, i know for a fact that both me and asal have been out in the world and understand what we are talking about, not sure about revolutionary, but by the way he forms his posts i get the impression he has an understanding about what life is about. debate is not about personally attacking someone's lifestyle, it is about disagreement in ideals and settling that disagreement without injuring either party's dignity.
that kind of "flaming" is not required. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wasn't a flame, it was a fact. How many people did you know in high school that always screamed 'America sucks!' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me, and rallied around 150 school mates and 4 teachers behind me.