<!--QuoteBegin--FascistWithANuke+Oct 24 2003, 03:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FascistWithANuke @ Oct 24 2003, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm neither, but I'm closer alignment to democracy. I don't like the communist "wealthfare" system or it's way to sort out economy problems. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you create your account as a mockery to mine? If so please don't...
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 24 2003, 10:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 24 2003, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FascistWithANuke+Oct 24 2003, 03:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FascistWithANuke @ Oct 24 2003, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm neither, but I'm closer alignment to democracy. I don't like the communist "wealthfare" system or it's way to sort out economy problems. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you create your account as a mockery to mine? If so please don't... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its obvious he did.
Fascism is too offensive really to have on this board, whereas everyone likes to take the **** out of Communism <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for my views.
Democracy all the way, "all men are created equal" as they say, and to me nothing says more about our society (well British society anyway) than the fact that we have democracy.
The current state of the US's behavior stains "democracy" I walk into a wal-mart and see flags with children and the words "Freedom" Freedom of what, freedom to be bombarded by propoganda and advertisments? Forget that, I'll go get some sleeping pills. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 24 2003, 11:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 24 2003, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The current state of the US's behavior stains "democracy" I walk into a wal-mart and see flags with children and the words "Freedom" Freedom of what, freedom to be bombarded by propoganda and advertisments? Forget that, I'll go get some sleeping pills. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> America is a Republic.
(Opens the Republic/Democracy debate/flame war can of worms)
Having big brother lavish upon me the basics of what I needed, and not being allowed to gain more for myself, I would literally go insane. People need a purpose, and a goal to work towards, it's how we (were created, evolved to, or how the space alien's experiment turned out wrong.)
Even though work may go "to the state," the state is far-off, distant, and not relevant to people's everyday lives. People don't think about how they can go better their counrtry, but how they can better the lives of their friends and family. Under communism, there is absolutely no incentive or ability to do this.
You attempt to short-circut thousands of years of human culture, learning, and theory in a single lifetime.
A (VERY) common misconception is that communism != democracy. People think that communism entails totalitarianism. Even though it has historically shown to be that way, if we're talking about the ideas here, communism is basically just a extremely powerful state that controls everybody's belongings and redistributes them as it sees fit. Nothing in there says that people can's vote for representatives or leaders of this large government.
I think communism and democracy can peacefully coexist. Capitalism and communism can't, much like dictatorship and democracy can't.
By the way, am I getting "socialism" mixed up with "communism?" What exactly is the difference? I haven't been taught much in school except for COMMUNISMBADSOCIALISMBAD.
Yes, Amen to everything MonsE said. And on a further note, we've never seen communism, and socialism has been a total disaster. Really not the best foundations upon which to build a government.
I conclude that Democracy is better. Instead of everyone being EQUAL, we should go towards everything being BALANCED.
Example, in Africa, if they are only antelops, then all the animals there are equal. There is no predators, no killing, the antelops does the same thing everyday, eat, sleep, mate.................eventually what happens?
Example, in Africa, there are lions, leopards, cheetahs, crocodiles, antelops, elephants, grazelles, water-bufflows. There are predators, there are killings, the animals kill each other, eat each other, live with each other, depend on each other for survival.
Lemme ask you, which do you think would last longer? The first ecosystem or the second ecosystem in Africa?
Second question, do you people here perfer a country to be Communal or Non-Communal?
Big government, elected or not, becomes a dictatorship either way. The more powerful and centralized a government is, the more a chance for corruption. Look for some Hamiltonian vs. Jeffersonian debates.
Government becomes, ultimately, a trade off between freedom and order and security. The more power that we contract to the government, the more of our own liberties we contract away to them. By giving the government the power to regulate how we spend our money, how we go about persuing better things for our family and ourselves, we destroy our own right to dictate how we are to go about persuing happiness. We kill freedom, murder it, just so that we can put aside our jealosy of the rich.
By concentrating government's power, you add its corruptability. By adding to its corruptability, you ensure the same harm of the people you wish to prevent.
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Oct 24 2003, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Oct 24 2003, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fascism is too offensive really to have on this board <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it? In my opinion it can't be any worse then communism. Fascism was tried for 30 years before it was with force put down. Communism have roamed the world till it died and when being "alive" causing so much pain and suffering. You could look back in history where commuist dictators killing millions just to get their views spooken.
Most bad things with fascism are involved with nazis, which fascism isen't built on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.: The one piece of 'censorship': No racist or otherwise hate-based comments. "But what if those are my opinions?", some might ask. "Well", we answer, "in that case, we'd like to ask you to leave these boards, curl up in a dirty corner, and hold your breathe until your few remaining brain cells take irreversible damage. Thanks for your cooperation!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--FascistWithANuke+Oct 25 2003, 05:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FascistWithANuke @ Oct 25 2003, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Oct 24 2003, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Oct 24 2003, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fascism is too offensive really to have on this board <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it? In my opinion it can't be any worse then communism. Fascism was tried for 30 years before it was with force put down. Communism have roamed the world till it died and when being "alive" causing so much pain and suffering. You could look back in history where commuist dictators killing millions just to get their views spooken.
Most bad things with fascism are involved with nazis, which fascism isen't built on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm, yes it is. Communism strives for eqaulity, it may have failed but at least it dosen't have the blood of millions of jewish people on it. GG Ignorant.
/edit. Your a troll, and you deserve every flame I give you. And the only reason you made that account was to mock me. Grow up, and come back when your at least 13 kthx
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+Oct 25 2003, 06:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Oct 25 2003, 06:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The last rule of the new Discussion Forum :
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.: The one piece of 'censorship': No racist or otherwise hate-based comments. "But what if those are my opinions?", some might ask. "Well", we answer, "in that case, we'd like to ask you to leave these boards, curl up in a dirty corner, and hold your breathe until your few remaining brain cells take irreversible damage. Thanks for your cooperation!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say goodbye to the boards mr Troll. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erhm...? <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm really not sure who has the greatest kill count there Communist - Stalin murdered his millions, and I believe Lenin did too. And then we have Mao, he knocked off a few. I wonder who killed more, the fascists or the commies?
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Oct 25 2003, 09:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 25 2003, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm really not sure who has the greatest kill count there Communist - Stalin murdered his millions, and I believe Lenin did too. And then we have Mao, he knocked off a few. I wonder who killed more, the fascists or the commies? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They weren't commies, they were dictators, staining a good idea. An Idea can't kill. Belivers kill...
The Communists probably did kill more (of course, any true communist would be appalled to see Stalin and Mao bundled under the title of "communist" but for the sake of arguement we'll stick with that), however it's the things associated with Fascism, such as the Nazi party and Mussolinni (gimme a break, it's 12:30 at night and I can't be bothered opening a textbook to figure out how to spell that bloated idiot's name). Fascist governments controlled the states which started the second World War (a more expanded view would say that the economic and political forces brought about by the first world war caused the second but let's not go into that), and were also the ones responsable for the greatest attrocities (no, I'm not forgetting the Polish officers slaughtered by the Russians but the Nazis did kill more). Fascism has come to be asociated with the historical occurances that people in fascist regimes undertook, and for that reason it is considered to be something that no person today thinks of returning to. Plus of course the fundamental nature of fascism is that of brutal oppression and militarism (yes, yes, communism has been much the same but it doesn't carry the same weight).
In short, although communist regimes have been brutal and have had rather nasty leaders, they do not occupy the same level of resentment and loathing that fascism and Adolf Hitler are on. Thus, fascism is not something that most people have any desire to discuss. Communism is discussed because a) the underlying ideals have never been reached and as such there is still grounds for theoretical debate and b) parts of it are compatable with modern governments (free health care and schooling for example). Fascism has no redeeming features nor any grounds for theoretical study. It is a repulsive form of dictatatorial power that hopefully shall never rise again.
If we're on the subject of government-style killcounts...
There was an article in a recent Atlantic Monthly (conservative magazine that my parents subscribe to) that was comparing deaths from what they called "democide" -- murder by the state. The graph was highest during the 1940s, where there were millions of deaths from the "Holocaust, Soviet ethnic purges, and imperial Japanese massacres." A second bump was deaths during China's famine during the Great Leap Forward.
That was very interesting, except the graph was biased -- because in communist countries, the economy is integrated into the government. Therefore, any death caused by the economy (ie collectivization) could be counted as "democide!" Since in capitalist countries the economy and government are officially separated, deaths under capitalism simply weren't counted. Now if you look at deaths due to medicine companies charging high prices for drugs, bans on cheap generic drugs, deaths from the tobacco industry, workplace deaths, and all the other ones caused by economic decisions... I'll bet the graph would be jumping to crazy heights. Just something to think about.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zig+Oct 25 2003, 06:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Oct 25 2003, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and.. god <i>damn</i>, i love being able to have more stuff than the next guy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I now hate you forever. Read my theory <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Oct 25 2003, 07:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Oct 25 2003, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umm, yes it is. Communism strives for eqaulity, it may have failed but at least it dosen't have the blood of millions of jewish people on it. GG Ignorant.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not that I support this FacistWithAGun guy but I have to step in here and say something...
Facism DOESN'T strive for the blood of millions of Jews or the blood of any people. What Facism DOES strive for is that all the people of the Facist country worship their one leader- Hitler, Mussolini, what have you- like he is a god, or even a savior. (note the similaritities to the 3 main religons) The reason Facism is so often related with Hilter and the Jews is because the word was created for him.
Facism itself has nothing to do with mass murder, in fact, if the leader and his/her people wanted to, they could live in peace with Facism as their government.
So, even though he is a troll, I don't think it's right to call him ignorant when your statement was more than slightly ignorant itself.
Communism or Democracy? Why not both? If I had to choose one though, it would have to be Democracy. MonsE hit it the nail on the head; Communism crushes the soul.
Don't associate Communism with Stalin and Mao, they admitted openly that they were changing Marxism because it "didn't adapt."
Here are the death counts: Stalin killed, at most, 1 million political opponents, the majority of them being <i>members of the Communist Party who wanted a return to democracy and socialism</i>. Mao is blamed for the deaths of 30 million to starvation, but if China was still run by the Nationalists, famine would have been a lot higher. Don't forget, under British rule, India had massive famines that would kill millions of people. The Chinese "Nationalists" were selling China to foreigners and twice as many would have starved to death as China was being raped by the west.
Communism is more democratic than capitalism. In Communism, the economy is regulated by the populace, people together decide on the economy by voting. In Capitalism, all the important decisions are made by businessmen, who were not even elected, and who do things not in the interest of society but in their own interest.
<!--QuoteBegin--revolutionary+Oct 26 2003, 07:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (revolutionary @ Oct 26 2003, 07:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Communism is more democratic than capitalism. In Communism, the economy is regulated by the populace, people together decide on the economy by voting. In Capitalism, all the important decisions are made by businessmen, who were not even elected, and who do things not in the interest of society but in their own interest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong.
Capitalism is more democratic than communism. The economy is controlled by 'enlightened' planners in communism. In capitalism, the economy is ruled by the market, aka, the people. Its the only democratic economic system. Remember, a buisness can't 'exploit' you without your consent.
Consider this. Buisness A decides they'll overcharge the populace for product A.
2 things could happen: 1) People stop buying the product, and decide "Thats not worth my money for the price." Buisness A goes out of buisness, or is forced to change their pricing model.
2)Product A is so essential that Buisness B starts selling Product B- same quality as a much lower price. Buisness A goes out buisness.
If the government wants to exploit you, they say "We're going to exploit you. If you resist, you go to jail." If a buisness wants to exploit you, they won' t try to exploit you. :-)
Where did this magical idea come from the Buisness was a greater danger than government?
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Oct 26 2003, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Oct 26 2003, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In capitalism, the economy is ruled by the market, aka, the people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Subtle difference : <b>the people who have money</b>...
Not everyone can afford to have an influence on the economy , or a decent life for that matter...
Consumerist sheeps have no real influence. They buy what they "think" is good for them , that is , what the corporations persuaded them to buy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its the only democratic economic system. Remember, a buisness can't 'exploit' you without your consent. Consider this. Buisness A decides they'll overcharge the populace for product A. 2 things could happen: 1) People stop buying the product, and decide "Thats not worth my money for the price." Buisness A goes out of buisness, or is forced to change their pricing model. 2) Product A is so essential that Buisness B starts selling Product B- same quality as a much lower price. Buisness A goes out buisness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's the case of monopolies. You can't sell a "windows 99" OS for PCs... well you could try... fortunately we have free software OS (linux) avaible.
Likewise , generic drugs still aren't allowed in most third world countries. Poorer people could afford to pay them , but not the expensive original drugs. Basically , the pharmaceutic industry tells them "SUYF and die"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the government wants to exploit you, they say "We're going to exploit you. If you resist, you go to jail." If a buisness wants to exploit you, they won' t try to exploit you. :-) Where did this magical idea come from the Buisness was a greater danger than government?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This magical idea comes from reality. If you fight to not be exploited at work and join a trade union here in France , you'll have to endure pressure and harrassment from your superiors , with enough courage you can win. If you try to join a trade union as a latino janitor in the US , chances are you'll be fired in no time flat. If you try to join a trade union as a thaï worker at a remote nike shoes factory , chances are you'll be dead the next day.
If a buisness needs to exploit you it will exploit you , and attempt to crush anyone willing to end the exploitation.
Jammer obviously fails to realise that not everyone one of the people are rich bourgeiouse who have 3 different summer houses and ****.
There absolutely no difference between middle and lower class any more, you can't tell the difference there is a huge gap between the rich and poor. In communism those planners do what the people tell them to do, different worker councils in a certain region decide on what to do, the planners are just there to enforce the decisions.
Ok fine, do you want the truth? I totally agree with what he says, and this entire time I've been playing the devils advocate to mix it up, but nobody saw through it, sheesh, I thought I made it pretty obvious for you guys.
Comments
Did you create your account as a mockery to mine? If so please don't...
Did you create your account as a mockery to mine? If so please don't... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its obvious he did.
Fascism is too offensive really to have on this board, whereas everyone likes to take the **** out of Communism <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for my views.
Democracy all the way, "all men are created equal" as they say, and to me nothing says more about our society (well British society anyway) than the fact that we have democracy.
America is a Republic.
(Opens the Republic/Democracy debate/flame war can of worms)
Having big brother lavish upon me the basics of what I needed, and not being allowed to gain more for myself, I would literally go insane. People need a purpose, and a goal to work towards, it's how we (were created, evolved to, or how the space alien's experiment turned out wrong.)
Even though work may go "to the state," the state is far-off, distant, and not relevant to people's everyday lives. People don't think about how they can go better their counrtry, but how they can better the lives of their friends and family. Under communism, there is absolutely no incentive or ability to do this.
You attempt to short-circut thousands of years of human culture, learning, and theory in a single lifetime.
A (VERY) common misconception is that communism != democracy. People think that communism entails totalitarianism. Even though it has historically shown to be that way, if we're talking about the ideas here, communism is basically just a extremely powerful state that controls everybody's belongings and redistributes them as it sees fit. Nothing in there says that people can's vote for representatives or leaders of this large government.
I think communism and democracy can peacefully coexist. Capitalism and communism can't, much like dictatorship and democracy can't.
By the way, am I getting "socialism" mixed up with "communism?" What exactly is the difference? I haven't been taught much in school except for COMMUNISMBADSOCIALISMBAD.
Example, in Africa, if they are only antelops, then all the animals there are equal. There is no predators, no killing, the antelops does the same thing everyday, eat, sleep, mate.................eventually what happens?
Example, in Africa, there are lions, leopards, cheetahs, crocodiles, antelops, elephants, grazelles, water-bufflows. There are predators, there are killings, the animals kill each other, eat each other, live with each other, depend on each other for survival.
Lemme ask you, which do you think would last longer? The first ecosystem or the second ecosystem in Africa?
Second question, do you people here perfer a country to be Communal or Non-Communal?
Big government, elected or not, becomes a dictatorship either way. The more powerful and centralized a government is, the more a chance for corruption. Look for some Hamiltonian vs. Jeffersonian debates.
Government becomes, ultimately, a trade off between freedom and order and security. The more power that we contract to the government, the more of our own liberties we contract away to them. By giving the government the power to regulate how we spend our money, how we go about persuing better things for our family and ourselves, we destroy our own right to dictate how we are to go about persuing happiness. We kill freedom, murder it, just so that we can put aside our jealosy of the rich.
By concentrating government's power, you add its corruptability. By adding to its corruptability, you ensure the same harm of the people you wish to prevent.
Is it? In my opinion it can't be any worse then communism. Fascism was tried for 30 years before it was with force put down. Communism have roamed the world till it died and when being "alive" causing so much pain and suffering. You could look back in history where commuist dictators killing millions just to get their views spooken.
Most bad things with fascism are involved with nazis, which fascism isen't built on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.: The one piece of 'censorship': No racist or otherwise hate-based comments.
"But what if those are my opinions?", some might ask.
"Well", we answer, "in that case, we'd like to ask you to leave these boards, curl up in a dirty corner, and hold your breathe until your few remaining brain cells take irreversible damage. Thanks for your cooperation!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say goodbye to the boards mr Troll.
Is it? In my opinion it can't be any worse then communism. Fascism was tried for 30 years before it was with force put down. Communism have roamed the world till it died and when being "alive" causing so much pain and suffering. You could look back in history where commuist dictators killing millions just to get their views spooken.
Most bad things with fascism are involved with nazis, which fascism isen't built on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, yes it is. Communism strives for eqaulity, it may have failed but at least it dosen't have the blood of millions of jewish people on it. GG Ignorant.
/edit. Your a troll, and you deserve every flame I give you. And the only reason you made that account was to mock me. Grow up, and come back when your at least 13 kthx
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.: The one piece of 'censorship': No racist or otherwise hate-based comments.
"But what if those are my opinions?", some might ask.
"Well", we answer, "in that case, we'd like to ask you to leave these boards, curl up in a dirty corner, and hold your breathe until your few remaining brain cells take irreversible damage. Thanks for your cooperation!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say goodbye to the boards mr Troll. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erhm...? <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
They weren't commies, they were dictators, staining a good idea. An Idea can't kill. Belivers kill...
In short, although communist regimes have been brutal and have had rather nasty leaders, they do not occupy the same level of resentment and loathing that fascism and Adolf Hitler are on. Thus, fascism is not something that most people have any desire to discuss. Communism is discussed because a) the underlying ideals have never been reached and as such there is still grounds for theoretical debate and b) parts of it are compatable with modern governments (free health care and schooling for example). Fascism has no redeeming features nor any grounds for theoretical study. It is a repulsive form of dictatatorial power that hopefully shall never rise again.
God this thread is stupid, there must be democracy in communism for the workers to decide on anything.
Or it would be chaos.
There was an article in a recent Atlantic Monthly (conservative magazine that my parents subscribe to) that was comparing deaths from what they called "democide" -- murder by the state. The graph was highest during the 1940s, where there were millions of deaths from the "Holocaust, Soviet ethnic purges, and imperial Japanese massacres." A second bump was deaths during China's famine during the Great Leap Forward.
That was very interesting, except the graph was biased -- because in communist countries, the economy is integrated into the government. Therefore, any death caused by the economy (ie collectivization) could be counted as "democide!" Since in capitalist countries the economy and government are officially separated, deaths under capitalism simply weren't counted. Now if you look at deaths due to medicine companies charging high prices for drugs, bans on cheap generic drugs, deaths from the tobacco industry, workplace deaths, and all the other ones caused by economic decisions... I'll bet the graph would be jumping to crazy heights. Just something to think about.
-we're not at the likely state of prerequisite enlightenment of thought for communism.
-without the above, democracy is the next best thing.
and.. god <i>damn</i>, i love being able to have more stuff than the next guy.
and.. god <i>damn</i>, i love being able to have more stuff than the next guy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I now hate you forever. Read my theory <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Not that I support this FacistWithAGun guy but I have to step in here and say something...
Facism DOESN'T strive for the blood of millions of Jews or the blood of any people. What Facism DOES strive for is that all the people of the Facist country worship their one leader- Hitler, Mussolini, what have you- like he is a god, or even a savior. (note the similaritities to the 3 main religons) The reason Facism is so often related with Hilter and the Jews is because the word was created for him.
Facism itself has nothing to do with mass murder, in fact, if the leader and his/her people wanted to, they could live in peace with Facism as their government.
So, even though he is a troll, I don't think it's right to call him ignorant when your statement was more than slightly ignorant itself.
Communism or Democracy? Why not both? If I had to choose one though, it would have to be Democracy. MonsE hit it the nail on the head; Communism crushes the soul.
Here are the death counts: Stalin killed, at most, 1 million political opponents, the majority of them being <i>members of the Communist Party who wanted a return to democracy and socialism</i>. Mao is blamed for the deaths of 30 million to starvation, but if China was still run by the Nationalists, famine would have been a lot higher. Don't forget, under British rule, India had massive famines that would kill millions of people. The Chinese "Nationalists" were selling China to foreigners and twice as many would have starved to death as China was being raped by the west.
Communism is more democratic than capitalism. In Communism, the economy is regulated by the populace, people together decide on the economy by voting. In Capitalism, all the important decisions are made by businessmen, who were not even elected, and who do things not in the interest of society but in their own interest.
Wrong.
Capitalism is more democratic than communism. The economy is controlled by 'enlightened' planners in communism. In capitalism, the economy is ruled by the market, aka, the people. Its the only democratic economic system. Remember, a buisness can't 'exploit' you without your consent.
Consider this. Buisness A decides they'll overcharge the populace for product A.
2 things could happen:
1) People stop buying the product, and decide "Thats not worth my money for the price." Buisness A goes out of buisness, or is forced to change their pricing model.
2)Product A is so essential that Buisness B starts selling Product B- same quality as a much lower price. Buisness A goes out buisness.
If the government wants to exploit you, they say "We're going to exploit you. If you resist, you go to jail."
If a buisness wants to exploit you, they won' t try to exploit you. :-)
Where did this magical idea come from the Buisness was a greater danger than government?
Subtle difference : <b>the people who have money</b>...
Not everyone can afford to have an influence on the economy , or a decent life for that matter...
Consumerist sheeps have no real influence. They buy what they "think" is good for them , that is , what the corporations persuaded them to buy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its the only democratic economic system. Remember, a buisness can't 'exploit' you without your consent. Consider this. Buisness A decides they'll overcharge the populace for product A. 2 things could happen: 1) People stop buying the product, and decide "Thats not worth my money for the price." Buisness A goes out of buisness, or is forced to change their pricing model. 2) Product A is so essential that Buisness B starts selling Product B- same quality as a much lower price. Buisness A goes out buisness.
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There's the case of monopolies. You can't sell a "windows 99" OS for PCs... well you could try... fortunately we have free software OS (linux) avaible.
Likewise , generic drugs still aren't allowed in most third world countries. Poorer people could afford to pay them , but not the expensive original drugs.
Basically , the pharmaceutic industry tells them "SUYF and die"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the government wants to exploit you, they say "We're going to exploit you. If you resist, you go to jail." If a buisness wants to exploit you, they won' t try to exploit you. :-) Where did this magical idea come from the Buisness was a greater danger than government?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This magical idea comes from reality. If you fight to not be exploited at work and join a trade union here in France , you'll have to endure pressure and harrassment from your superiors , with enough courage you can win. If you try to join a trade union as a latino janitor in the US , chances are you'll be fired in no time flat. If you try to join a trade union as a thaï worker at a remote nike shoes factory , chances are you'll be dead the next day.
If a buisness needs to exploit you it will exploit you , and attempt to crush anyone willing to end the exploitation.
There absolutely no difference between middle and lower class any more, you can't tell the difference there is a huge gap between the rich and poor. In communism those planners do what the people tell them to do, different worker councils in a certain region decide on what to do, the planners are just there to enforce the decisions.