<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 15 2003, 09:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 15 2003, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 06:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 15 2003, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 15 2003, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hold on... why did jesus need to die for everyone's sins? The person who was getting paid for these sins was god right? So why not just write them off instead of having a kid and then having him unnessarily suffer for it? o.O It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That brings up another point, if Jesus is supposedly an incarnation of God, why did God punish himself? Is'nt he perfect, and thus beyond such things? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All people usually accept the idea of a Loving and All-powerful God, but the third quality that is overlooked is just.
Exodus 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
_____
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Or : As the guilty, we need something to take away our sins. But black and black do not make white. God sent his son to be the perfect being that Sin would not destroy, could not destroy, to take all that Sin upon himself.
Which, in effect, made sin powerless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He doesn't leave the guilty unpunished... so thats why he sent an innocent being (or himself, whatever) to get punished for everybody elses sins so they didn't have to get punished <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ?
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 15 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was baptised, so does that mean I can kill 50 people and get into heaven as long as I believe in Jesus and accept him as my savior? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry to regress a page or two, but this question has been posed so many times by confirmed atheists/agnostics that it's kind of old. But I'll answer it anyways:
First, if you were baptised of your own free will, under no duress, with an open mind and heart, accepted Christ into your life as your Lord and Savior, at point in your life where you could adequately understand the stipulations behind baptism, then yes you would be saved by your profession of faith. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, just a public manifestation of a personal profession of faith in Him.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perished but have everlasting life.
Secondly, if you truly accepted Christ, His teachings, His word and His commandments (namely, "Love thy neighbor as thou love thyself"), you would be incapable of doing something like that. Following along those lines comes Colossians 3:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From Colossians 3: <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><ul> <li> 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, <b>evil desire</b>, and covetousness, which is idolatry <li> 6 Because these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, <li> 7 In which you yourself once walked when you lived in them. <li> 8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these things: <b>anger, malice,</b> blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth <li> 9 Do not lie to one another, <b>since you have put off the old man with his deeds,</b> <li>10 <b>And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him</b> <li>11 <b>Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumsised or uncircumsised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ <i>is</i> all and <i>in</i> all.</b>
<li>17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. </ul></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, it states that any person who truly accpets Christ into their life becomes a new person, who is to shed all the things that caused grief, strife and hurt in his/her life and the lives of those around them. The last verse demonstrates another reason a true Christian would be incapable to do such a thing. We are instructed to do <b>all</b> things in the name of our Lord, not in and of our own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumsised or uncircumsised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was Old and New Adam, what version of the Bible is that..?
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 09:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He doesn't leave the guilty unpunished... so thats why he sent an innocent being (or himself, whatever) to get punished for everybody elses sins so they didn't have to get punished <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus went willingly to His death, and felt he was serving God to the greatest and most fulfilling extent possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From John 17 <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><ul> <li> 1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You <li> 2 "As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. <li> 3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. <li> 4 "I have glorified You on the earth. <b>I have finished the work which You gave Me to do</b>. <li> 5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the story which I had You before the world was. <li> 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. <li> 19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. </ul></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Oct 15 2003, 11:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Oct 15 2003, 11:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumsised or uncircumsised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was Old and New Adam, what version of the Bible is that..? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> some pisspoor gideons new testament that is subsituting for my regular NIV since I left the NIV at home when I came up to college <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 15 2003, 11:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 15 2003, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 09:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He doesn't leave the guilty unpunished... so thats why he sent an innocent being (or himself, whatever) to get punished for everybody elses sins so they didn't have to get punished <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus went willingly to His death, and felt he was serving God to the greatest and most fulfilling extent possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whether he did it willingly or not, he was still being punished for the sins of other, hence those others were going un punished. That was my point.
Lets recap: Jesus died and went to hell for (a measily) 3 days so that all who accept him could be absolved of sin. The question was posed: Why did god not simply grant the absolutions to believers? Why sacrifice an innocent for man's sake? Legionaird said: God is just, so there must be punishment (more or less). It was asked: But why an innocent? Legionaird said: Because it needed to be someone without sin. The question was posed: So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 16 2003, 12:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 16 2003, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether he did it willingly or not, he was still being punished for the sins of other, hence those others were going un punished. That was my point.
Lets recap: Jesus died and went to hell for (a measily) 3 days so that all who accept him could be absolved of sin. The question was posed: Why did god not simply grant the absolutions to believers? Why sacrifice an innocent for man's sake? Legionaird said: God is just, so there must be punishment (more or less). It was asked: But why an innocent? Legionaird said: Because it needed to be someone without sin. The question was posed: So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He wasn't being punished. He took our sins off His own will. What He did was facilitate the salvation of His Father's creatures so that they may live and come to know Him rather than perish in their sin. If he anything, He was rewarded by His Father by the love we give to Him and those who are now with Him.
Jesus' life and death were the fulfillment of a prophecy of deliverance that the Messiah (loosely translated to Anointed One) would come to deliver the true believers from their plight and suffering that they had faced since the days of Israel and his sons. The sacrifice of an innocent person paved a path of purity that would guide God's people to the path of forgiveness. Jesus accepted the sins of <i>all of us</i> when He died, not just of some of us. He took on the burden of all His flock so that His flock could reach salvation. God would not tolerate any tainted person in heaven, so Jesus took the pain and suffering for all those that would put their faith in Him. Just as any good shepherd (in the true pastoral sense) would sleep outside with his flock, stay up at night to guard it, and accept the wounds inflicted by predators in lieu of his sheep, goats or cattle dying, Jesus did the same to us. He assumed a burden and followed through on His obligation to those with whom he was entrusted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Careful there. Jesus was not created. The Word has been one with God since the beginning and voluntarily accepted the fate it would suffer during incarnation in full accordance with the Father's will.
i don't feel like i need to add my reasons to this discussion. most of my concerns are already quite throughly addressed by many others. this is a good topic!
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 16 2003, 12:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 16 2003, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He wasn't being punished. He took our sins off His own will.
Yadda, yadda, yadda. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't bother to read your whole post, since you obviously didn't read all of mine or you wouldn't have said that since I already explained why it doesn't matter.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 16 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 16 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 15 2003, 11:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 15 2003, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 15 2003, 09:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 15 2003, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He doesn't leave the guilty unpunished... so thats why he sent an innocent being (or himself, whatever) to get punished for everybody elses sins so they didn't have to get punished <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus went willingly to His death, and felt he was serving God to the greatest and most fulfilling extent possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether he did it willingly or not, he was still being punished for the sins of other, hence those others were going un punished. That was my point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Those who believe are let of the hook, but, because God is just, someone (Jesus) had to be put on the hook to take the punishment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets recap: Jesus died and went to hell for (a measily) 3 days so that all who accept him could be absolved of sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was actually less than three days: he died on the friday evening amd rose on the sunday morning. It was a little over one. Anyway, whatever the time was, it doesnt matter. In that time he took the eternal punishment for everyone who chooses to believe. It not impossible, God is onmipotent. In that day, Jesus suffered a billion eternities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question was posed: Why did god not simply grant the absolutions to believers? Why sacrifice an innocent for man's sake? Legionaird said: God is just, so there must be punishment (more or less). It was asked: But why an innocent? Legionaird said: Because it needed to be someone without sin. The question was posed: So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. God the Son (ie Jesus) had already existed. He is as eternal as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. When God was "looking" for someone to redeem the human race, Jesus volunteered. He is not a separate entity from God. The only example I can imagine is a caterpillar, a pupa and a butterfly. They are all the same animal, yet all different, although, instead of exixting at different stages, they exist all at once.
God would not be fully good if He did not fully hate evil, Him just saying "poof, you're forgiven" would be Him fully accepting the evil we embrace.
As I quoted from scripture earlyer, he who had no sin <b>was sin for us</b>. He took all the pain upon Himself, he became our sin, and our slate is wiped clean, should we merely ask Him to.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
edited October 2003
To me it just seems that peoples religion (no matter what it may be) is the root cause of 99.9% of all the hatred, wars, crimes, genocides, etc. Problems
Crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, abortion clinic, bombings, hate crimes, modern day genocides all over the world, KKK,
even even small very minute things that separate people of different religion.
In fact for these reasons alone, many sociologists predict that future wars will be fought more along the lines of religious differences rather then political ones.
To a vast extent that is already coming true, look at Isreal v Palistinians, Iran vs Iraq (over difference in Islamic opinions) Genocides in Eastern Europe, Cambodia, Phillipenes, civil wars all over Africa etc.
And even when one (peaceful, God believing) religion is in danger, other God believing suposidly peacful ones dont do anything to help. Such as the Catholics ignoring the Holocasut at the time.
And yea this join my religon or you go to hell crap has got to go. Especaially when they ALL say that. Everyone always claims to be THE religon, they all claim to be the right one, and when asked about other religions they often cite incorrect info on them.
So this is just one less thing for me to worry about.
I belive in my own personal morals. It doesnt take a surpreme being to tell me that it is wrong to murder in cold blood or to treat other people like crap or to steal from others.
If you want to belive in what you will fine, I will respect that. Obviously I dont agree with you (yes I do know there are millions of people who are very nice and would never think of sending hate mail to the parants of a student who doesnt want to hear prayer in schcool- not very christian like are we?)
But at least I dont go around harassing/debating/ trying to convert other people to my side and threaten them to hell. I leave you alone, leave me alone. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Oct 16 2003, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Oct 16 2003, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To me it just seems that peoples religion (no matter what it may be) is the root cause of 99.9% of all the hatred, wars, crimes, genocides, etc. Problems
Crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, abortion clinic, bombings, hate crimes, modern day genocides all over the world, KKK, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> to me, it seems that 100% of the wars on this planet are caused by people.
Religion doesnt start wars, people start wars.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yea this join my religon or you go to hell crap has got to go. Especaially when they ALL say that. Everyone always claims to be THE religon, they all claim to be the right one, and when asked about other religions they often cite incorrect info on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evidently they cant all be right. The easy was out is to assume that none of them are right. The alternative is to pick one after investigating them all. Choose the one you feel right with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even when one (peaceful, God believing) religion is in danger, other God believing suposidly peacful ones dont do anything to help. Such as the Catholics ignoring the Holocasut at the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Today, more than fifty years after the Holocaust, it needs to be more widely recognized and appreciated that Pius XII was indeed a very "righteous gentile," a true friend of the Jewish people, who saved more Jewish lives than any other person, including Raoul Wallenberg and Oskar Schindler. A new authentically Jewish history of Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust, emphasizing his historic role and accomplishments as a "righteous gentile," may help to bring some long-overdue recognition to his too little known and appreciated legacy as one of the century's great friends of the Jewish people.
-- Rabbi Dalin about Pius XII, <a href='http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalin.htm' target='_blank'>A Righteous Gentile</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... something i never thought about. I simply dont believe because god has yet to intercept me in my life in some way shape or form and given me a reason for my continued existance. Right now, i live for myself. I know that sounds selfish, but i dont really have anything to live FOR at the moment. Sounds suicidal, and believe me i was there, but i came to a conclusion... That i will live my life the way i see is right, the way i want it to be... untill something happens. What this "something" is wont matter, but something for me to say "this is why i'm here, this is how i will leave my mark on the world". If it never happens, oh well, i had a fun and enjoyable life. I have no illusions of grandur (sp?). i dont think that some day i will Be super famous and i will be noted in history books and my story be passed down in legend. However, maybe something I do may help someone become more then what they originally were. I am sure that throughout my life me and my beliefs and actions would impact people in a way that may spur them to become something bigger. I may save a life, and that person some day becomes the inventor to the cure of all desises. Simply put, i dont value my life as much as i value others, the other people in this world are more important then I... because i dont feel i have the power to shape the world... and if i did i would not use it because i am to screwed up in the head to make the world right (to long of a story).
If there is a god, the only thing i would feel is hate, hatred for a god that decided that he wanted people to blindly follow him, with no guidence. How much death and destruction has been in god's name? simply to further bolster the ranks of his followers? For what purpose? for what reason? Look what he Supposudly did back in the early days of civilization! His son, dead rose from the grave... Why start a movement in a time where 99% of the people couldn't read, couldn't think for gods sake. They lived a simple and uneducated life, blind to what happens around them. You could almost say we now see the world clearer then back 2000 odd years ago. Is god afraid of getting proven wrong? does he not want to talk in a civil conversation with some of the great minds of today? You would think he would see the progress we have made and be proud enough of it to confirm his existance.
Besides... i dont need religion to live a good life, i dont need religion to know that what i do is in the right. I dont need someone or something imposing their standards on me. "good" and "evil" the lines are blurred... Leaders of religions simply use the masses to further their own ends... it is seen time and time again in history. "Oh i must kill the innocent for god will send me to hell" What? when did killing people suddenly become ok? To take another sentient beings life is never to be taken lightly... it almost reminds me of what mothers say to their children "would you jump off a bridge if they did?".
Wait... let me just answer your question. What would god have to do to make me believe? Well... i am not selfish enough to ask god to solve all my problems to prove his existance. I say he should just send jesus back and we can all chat over coffee and donuts, maybe a have a smoke... catch up on whats happening... Then again the second coming of jesus is Death to all non belivers, then it would save me the trouble of growing old, and save me lots of pain and suffering in this world. Hell? ehhh, if i go to hell there is not much i can do about it because Supposudly god made me who i am, am i right?
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 16 2003, 01:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 16 2003, 01:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 16 2003, 12:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 16 2003, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He wasn't being punished. He took our sins off His own will.
Yadda, yadda, yadda. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't bother to read your whole post, since you obviously didn't read all of mine or you wouldn't have said that since I already explained why it doesn't matter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actually, i did read all of yours and proceeded to answer the questions without just relegating things to "oops it doesn't matter"
And statements like this mean you probably shouldn't spend too much time in here. I responded to all parts of your post except the blatantly arbitrary statement "it doesn't matter..." which hampers discourse and doesn't allow for discussion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Trevelyan+Oct 16 2003, 02:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Oct 16 2003, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If there is a god, the only thing i would feel is hate, hatred for a god that decided that he wanted people to blindly follow him, with no guidence. How much death and destruction has been in god's name? simply to further bolster the ranks of his followers? For what purpose? for what reason? Look what he Supposudly did back in the early days of civilization! His son, dead rose from the grave... Why start a movement in a time where 99% of the people couldn't read, couldn't think for gods sake. They lived a simple and uneducated life, blind to what happens around them. You could almost say we now see the world clearer then back 2000 odd years ago. Is god afraid of getting proven wrong? does he not want to talk in a civil conversation with some of the great minds of today? You would think he would see the progress we have made and be proud enough of it to confirm his existance.
Besides... i dont need religion to live a good life, i dont need religion to know that what i do is in the right. I dont need someone or something imposing their standards on me. "good" and "evil" the lines are blurred... Leaders of religions simply use the masses to further their own ends... it is seen time and time again in history. "Oh i must kill the innocent for god will send me to hell" What? when did killing people suddenly become ok? To take another sentient beings life is never to be taken lightly... it almost reminds me of what mothers say to their children "would you jump off a bridge if they did?".
Wait... let me just answer your question. What would god have to do to make me believe? Well... i am not selfish enough to ask god to solve all my problems to prove his existance. I say he should just send jesus back and we can all chat over coffee and donuts, maybe a have a smoke... catch up on whats happening... Then again the second coming of jesus is Death to all non belivers, then it would save me the trouble of growing old, and save me lots of pain and suffering in this world. Hell? ehhh, if i go to hell there is not much i can do about it because Supposudly god made me who i am, am i right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You seriously need to learn the difference between having faith and ascribing to a religion. Not for anyone else's sake but your own. As a Christian I draw a clear line between where my faith ends and my religion begins. Religion is a code or system of traditions and customs, etc. Faith is the believe in something greater than oneself. Religion based on faith is commendable. Faith based solely on a religion is empty and meaningless.
People doing things "in God's name" is in no way the same as doing things "at God's bidding." Look to some of the previous posts both of myself and others concerning paying lipservice to a deity and not believing in it truly.
Oh good lord. Before more of this "religion started all wars so it must be bad" stuff gets going...
Somewhere in excess of 200 Million people died between 1900-2000 in warfare-related deaths.
Most of them were caused by Mao Zedong, Stalin, and Hitler. Hitler claimed religious justification for his actions, but nowhere in the bible is killing, hatred of anyone, or tyranny supported.
No religious justification, really, is found in the Crusades. The early Catholic church exploited people, and sent them off to die. But find one spot where Christ wants us to go and kill.
Matthew 20:52 <span style='color:red'>"Put your sword back in its place," </span>Jesus said to him,<span style='color:red'> "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a god, the only thing i would feel is hate, hatred for a god that decided that he wanted people to blindly follow him, with no guidence. How much death and destruction has been in god's name? simply to further bolster the ranks of his followers? For what purpose? for what reason? Look what he Supposudly did back in the early days of civilization! His son, dead rose from the grave... Why start a movement in a time where 99% of the people couldn't read, couldn't think for gods sake. They lived a simple and uneducated life, blind to what happens around them. You could almost say we now see the world clearer then back 2000 odd years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blindly follow with no guidance? Nevermind the Holy Spirit, the bible, and the teachings of Christ. Never mind the apostles given direction to go out to specific places and teach what Christ taught them, never mind that, that's not guidance!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is god afraid of getting proven wrong? does he not want to talk in a civil conversation with some of the great minds of today? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but the idea of an omnipotent being, proved wrong? By his own creation, no less?
The bible pretty much stands on it's own, there's simply no need for that. The intelligent deisgn movement hasn't been dealt any crucial blows, and Churches still continue to grow.
The people who are saying that God needs to prove Himself are usually the people who wouldn't believe Him if he came down from heaven right in front of their eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 16 2003, 04:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 16 2003, 04:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The people who are saying that God needs to prove Himself are usually the people who wouldn't believe Him if he came down from heaven right in front of their eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And on the other hand, the people who believe in God would still believe even if he never ever came down from there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
God just seems....wrong. He created everything, and yet the world has so many bad things happening in it. But, no, let's not blame God for that. Instead we should believe in God, go to Church every Sunday, and accept whatever happens no matter what. And only then do we get to go to Heaven.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Oct 16 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Oct 16 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 16 2003, 04:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 16 2003, 04:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The people who are saying that God needs to prove Himself are usually the people who wouldn't believe Him if he came down from heaven right in front of their eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And on the other hand, the people who believe in God would still believe even if he never ever came down from there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
God just seems....wrong. He created everything, and yet the world has so many bad things happening in it. But, no, let's not blame God for that. Instead we should believe in God, go to Church every Sunday, and accept whatever happens no matter what. And only then do we get to go to Heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, nicely put.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 16 2003, 04:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 16 2003, 04:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of them were caused by Mao Zedong, Stalin, and Hitler. Hitler claimed religious justification for his actions, but nowhere in the bible is killing, hatred of anyone, or tyranny supported. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I beg to differ:
13 Now Jeroboam had sent troops around to the rear, so that while he was in front of Judah the ambush was behind them. 14 Judah turned and saw that they were being attacked at both front and rear. Then they cried out to the LORD . The priests blew their trumpets 15 and the men of Judah raised the battle cry. At the sound of their battle cry, God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah. 16 The Israelites fled before Judah, and God delivered them into their hands. 17 Abijah and his men inflicted heavy losses on them, so that there were five hundred thousand casualties among Israel's able men. 18 The men of Israel were subdued on that occasion, and the men of Judah were victorious because they relied on the LORD , the God of their fathers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy [3] of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
16 Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow-you and they and Aaron. 17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the LORD . You and Aaron are to present your censers also." 18 So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." 22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?" 23 Then the LORD said to Moses, 24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' " 25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins." 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents. 28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [3] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt." 31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!" 35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense. 36 The LORD said to Moses, 37 "Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the smoldering remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy- 38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites." 39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned up, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar, 40 as the LORD directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the LORD , or he would become like Korah and his followers. 41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. "You have killed the LORD's people," they said. 42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the Tent of Meeting, 44 and the LORD said to Moses, 45 "Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." And they fell facedown. 46 Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD ; the plague has started." 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. 50 Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, for the plague had stopped. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Oct 16 2003, 04:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Oct 16 2003, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, but there's a big flaw in your argument.
It came from the bible!
You're assuming that A) We believe God exists, and B) We believe the bible is authenic!
You can't use bible references, because it is a bad source. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well he said there was no place in the bible where they condone killing. Gee, in these three passages, not only did the disciples (Or whatever the hell they're called) commit atrocities, but god himself decided it was fun to kill 20,000 people for doing what Moses said. God proves his existence by smiting an entire city.
Oh, sorry my bad. He's assuming the bible is authenic in his argument. Sorry. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Oct 16 2003, 04:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Oct 16 2003, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, sorry my bad. He's assuming the bible is authenic in his argument. Sorry. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And I mean: C'mon, 500,000 people?! That's larger then the population of some countries! If he was a kind, loving god, you think they could've made up some **** story (instead of that one) like 'and god made their weapons and armor rust, and their horses come up lame, and blah blah killing is a naughty deed and the priest is gonna spank you for it'.
BLEH - here come all the old testament references.
Its really hard to use OT references when hes talking about the years 1900-2000. It is a fact that more people have died in warfare this century than in all centuries previous. And of these wars that killed more than any other, lets go through them and try and see which ones were religious.
The Boer War - evil muslims tried to take over SA? NO! Brits vs dutch, no religion involved. The First World War - again, it was Western vs Western, religion was not the cause. Then we have the second world war - again no religious motivation. Korea - same. Vietnam - same. The Falklands- same. Desert storm - same.
Lets go back a little further in history - Napoleon, no religion. The hundred years war - no religion. American war for independance, american civil war. None of these had religious motivations.
Pretty much the only major religious war you guys can bring up is the Crusades, in which a mere million died. Stalin killed in the tens of millions, and he was pure atheist. Mao kills hundreds of thousands - atheist.
This is the last time I am posting this information. I am sick and tired of giving this out. Several of you posting here have DEFINATELY seen it before, have NEVER brought up a decent reply, and yet will continue making the same, ignorant statement.
Religion doesnt start wars - people start wars, get over it.
Comments
It almost makes it sound like god is playing by some higher powers rules and had to appease them instead ~blink~
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That brings up another point, if Jesus is supposedly an incarnation of God, why did God punish himself? Is'nt he perfect, and thus beyond such things? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All people usually accept the idea of a Loving and All-powerful God, but the third quality that is overlooked is just.
Exodus 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
_____
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Or : As the guilty, we need something to take away our sins. But black and black do not make white. God sent his son to be the perfect being that Sin would not destroy, could not destroy, to take all that Sin upon himself.
Which, in effect, made sin powerless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He doesn't leave the guilty unpunished... so thats why he sent an innocent being (or himself, whatever) to get punished for everybody elses sins so they didn't have to get punished <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ?
I'm sorry to regress a page or two, but this question has been posed so many times by confirmed atheists/agnostics that it's kind of old. But I'll answer it anyways:
First, if you were baptised of your own free will, under no duress, with an open mind and heart, accepted Christ into your life as your Lord and Savior, at point in your life where you could adequately understand the stipulations behind baptism, then yes you would be saved by your profession of faith. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, just a public manifestation of a personal profession of faith in Him.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perished but have everlasting life.
Secondly, if you truly accepted Christ, His teachings, His word and His commandments (namely, "Love thy neighbor as thou love thyself"), you would be incapable of doing something like that. Following along those lines comes Colossians 3:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From Colossians 3:
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><ul>
<li> 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, <b>evil desire</b>, and covetousness, which is idolatry
<li> 6 Because these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
<li> 7 In which you yourself once walked when you lived in them.
<li> 8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these things: <b>anger, malice,</b> blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth
<li> 9 Do not lie to one another, <b>since you have put off the old man with his deeds,</b>
<li>10 <b>And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him</b>
<li>11 <b>Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumsised or uncircumsised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ <i>is</i> all and <i>in</i> all.</b>
<li>17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
</ul></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, it states that any person who truly accpets Christ into their life becomes a new person, who is to shed all the things that caused grief, strife and hurt in his/her life and the lives of those around them. The last verse demonstrates another reason a true Christian would be incapable to do such a thing. We are instructed to do <b>all</b> things in the name of our Lord, not in and of our own.
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumsised or uncircumsised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was Old and New Adam, what version of the Bible is that..?
Jesus went willingly to His death, and felt he was serving God to the greatest and most fulfilling extent possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From John 17
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><ul>
<li> 1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You
<li> 2 "As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
<li> 3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
<li> 4 "I have glorified You on the earth. <b>I have finished the work which You gave Me to do</b>.
<li> 5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the story which I had You before the world was.
<li> 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
<li> 19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
</ul></span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumsised or uncircumsised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was Old and New Adam, what version of the Bible is that..? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
some pisspoor gideons new testament that is subsituting for my regular NIV since I left the NIV at home when I came up to college <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Jesus went willingly to His death, and felt he was serving God to the greatest and most fulfilling extent possible.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether he did it willingly or not, he was still being punished for the sins of other, hence those others were going un punished. That was my point.
Lets recap:
Jesus died and went to hell for (a measily) 3 days so that all who accept him could be absolved of sin.
The question was posed: Why did god not simply grant the absolutions to believers? Why sacrifice an innocent for man's sake?
Legionaird said: God is just, so there must be punishment (more or less).
It was asked: But why an innocent?
Legionaird said: Because it needed to be someone without sin.
The question was posed: So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway.
Lets recap:
Jesus died and went to hell for (a measily) 3 days so that all who accept him could be absolved of sin.
The question was posed: Why did god not simply grant the absolutions to believers? Why sacrifice an innocent for man's sake?
Legionaird said: God is just, so there must be punishment (more or less).
It was asked: But why an innocent?
Legionaird said: Because it needed to be someone without sin.
The question was posed: So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He wasn't being punished. He took our sins off His own will. What He did was facilitate the salvation of His Father's creatures so that they may live and come to know Him rather than perish in their sin. If he anything, He was rewarded by His Father by the love we give to Him and those who are now with Him.
Jesus' life and death were the fulfillment of a prophecy of deliverance that the Messiah (loosely translated to Anointed One) would come to deliver the true believers from their plight and suffering that they had faced since the days of Israel and his sons. The sacrifice of an innocent person paved a path of purity that would guide God's people to the path of forgiveness. Jesus accepted the sins of <i>all of us</i> when He died, not just of some of us. He took on the burden of all His flock so that His flock could reach salvation. God would not tolerate any tainted person in heaven, so Jesus took the pain and suffering for all those that would put their faith in Him. Just as any good shepherd (in the true pastoral sense) would sleep outside with his flock, stay up at night to guard it, and accept the wounds inflicted by predators in lieu of his sheep, goats or cattle dying, Jesus did the same to us. He assumed a burden and followed through on His obligation to those with whom he was entrusted.
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Careful there. Jesus was not created. The Word has been one with God since the beginning and voluntarily accepted the fate it would suffer during incarnation in full accordance with the Father's will.
Yadda, yadda, yadda. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't bother to read your whole post, since you obviously didn't read all of mine or you wouldn't have said that since I already explained why it doesn't matter.
Jesus went willingly to His death, and felt he was serving God to the greatest and most fulfilling extent possible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether he did it willingly or not, he was still being punished for the sins of other, hence those others were going un punished. That was my point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those who believe are let of the hook, but, because God is just, someone (Jesus) had to be put on the hook to take the punishment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets recap:
Jesus died and went to hell for (a measily) 3 days so that all who accept him could be absolved of sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was actually less than three days: he died on the friday evening amd rose on the sunday morning. It was a little over one. Anyway, whatever the time was, it doesnt matter. In that time he took the eternal punishment for everyone who chooses to believe. It not impossible, God is onmipotent. In that day, Jesus suffered a billion eternities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question was posed: Why did god not simply grant the absolutions to believers? Why sacrifice an innocent for man's sake?
Legionaird said: God is just, so there must be punishment (more or less).
It was asked: But why an innocent?
Legionaird said: Because it needed to be someone without sin.
The question was posed: So God creates an innocent soley so he can deliver the guilty from punishment through that innocent's sacrifice?
It doesn't matter that Jesus was willing. Especially if we take Jesus to be a seperate entity from God, yet created by him. Then Jesus becomes a creation who's purpose was to suffer in this manner, and so really had no choice to be willing anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. God the Son (ie Jesus) had already existed. He is as eternal as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. When God was "looking" for someone to redeem the human race, Jesus volunteered. He is not a separate entity from God. The only example I can imagine is a caterpillar, a pupa and a butterfly. They are all the same animal, yet all different, although, instead of exixting at different stages, they exist all at once.
As I quoted from scripture earlyer, he who had no sin <b>was sin for us</b>. He took all the pain upon Himself, he became our sin, and our slate is wiped clean, should we merely ask Him to.
Crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, abortion clinic, bombings, hate crimes, modern day genocides all over the world, KKK,
even even small very minute things that separate people of different religion.
In fact for these reasons alone, many sociologists predict that future wars will be fought more along the lines of religious differences rather then political ones.
To a vast extent that is already coming true, look at Isreal v Palistinians, Iran vs Iraq (over difference in Islamic opinions) Genocides in Eastern Europe, Cambodia, Phillipenes, civil wars all over Africa etc.
And even when one (peaceful, God believing) religion is in danger, other God believing suposidly peacful ones dont do anything to help. Such as the Catholics ignoring the Holocasut at the time.
And yea this join my religon or you go to hell crap has got to go. Especaially when they ALL say that. Everyone always claims to be THE religon, they all claim to be the right one, and when asked about other religions they often cite incorrect info on them.
So this is just one less thing for me to worry about.
I belive in my own personal morals. It doesnt take a surpreme being to tell me that it is wrong to murder in cold blood or to treat other people like crap or to steal from others.
If you want to belive in what you will fine, I will respect that. Obviously I dont agree with you (yes I do know there are millions of people who are very nice and would never think of sending hate mail to the parants of a student who doesnt want to hear prayer in schcool- not very christian like are we?)
But at least I dont go around harassing/debating/ trying to convert other people to my side and threaten them to hell. I leave you alone, leave me alone.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, holocaust, abortion clinic, bombings, hate crimes, modern day genocides all over the world, KKK, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
to me, it seems that 100% of the wars on this planet are caused by people.
Religion doesnt start wars, people start wars.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yea this join my religon or you go to hell crap has got to go. Especaially when they ALL say that. Everyone always claims to be THE religon, they all claim to be the right one, and when asked about other religions they often cite incorrect info on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evidently they cant all be right. The easy was out is to assume that none of them are right. The alternative is to pick one after investigating them all. Choose the one you feel right with.
It is has officially been a religion since the 1960s (i think)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Today, more than fifty years after the Holocaust, it needs to be more widely recognized and appreciated that Pius XII was indeed a very "righteous gentile," a true friend of the Jewish people, who saved more Jewish lives than any other person, including Raoul Wallenberg and Oskar Schindler. A new authentically Jewish history of Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust, emphasizing his historic role and accomplishments as a "righteous gentile," may help to bring some long-overdue recognition to his too little known and appreciated legacy as one of the century's great friends of the Jewish people.
-- Rabbi Dalin about Pius XII, <a href='http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalin.htm' target='_blank'>A Righteous Gentile</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there is a god, the only thing i would feel is hate, hatred for a god that decided that he wanted people to blindly follow him, with no guidence. How much death and destruction has been in god's name? simply to further bolster the ranks of his followers? For what purpose? for what reason? Look what he Supposudly did back in the early days of civilization! His son, dead rose from the grave... Why start a movement in a time where 99% of the people couldn't read, couldn't think for gods sake. They lived a simple and uneducated life, blind to what happens around them. You could almost say we now see the world clearer then back 2000 odd years ago. Is god afraid of getting proven wrong? does he not want to talk in a civil conversation with some of the great minds of today? You would think he would see the progress we have made and be proud enough of it to confirm his existance.
Besides... i dont need religion to live a good life, i dont need religion to know that what i do is in the right. I dont need someone or something imposing their standards on me. "good" and "evil" the lines are blurred... Leaders of religions simply use the masses to further their own ends... it is seen time and time again in history. "Oh i must kill the innocent for god will send me to hell" What? when did killing people suddenly become ok? To take another sentient beings life is never to be taken lightly... it almost reminds me of what mothers say to their children "would you jump off a bridge if they did?".
Wait... let me just answer your question. What would god have to do to make me believe? Well... i am not selfish enough to ask god to solve all my problems to prove his existance. I say he should just send jesus back and we can all chat over coffee and donuts, maybe a have a smoke... catch up on whats happening... Then again the second coming of jesus is Death to all non belivers, then it would save me the trouble of growing old, and save me lots of pain and suffering in this world. Hell? ehhh, if i go to hell there is not much i can do about it because Supposudly god made me who i am, am i right?
Yadda, yadda, yadda. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't bother to read your whole post, since you obviously didn't read all of mine or you wouldn't have said that since I already explained why it doesn't matter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually, i did read all of yours and proceeded to answer the questions without just relegating things to "oops it doesn't matter"
And statements like this mean you probably shouldn't spend too much time in here. I responded to all parts of your post except the blatantly arbitrary statement "it doesn't matter..." which hampers discourse and doesn't allow for discussion.
Besides... i dont need religion to live a good life, i dont need religion to know that what i do is in the right. I dont need someone or something imposing their standards on me. "good" and "evil" the lines are blurred... Leaders of religions simply use the masses to further their own ends... it is seen time and time again in history. "Oh i must kill the innocent for god will send me to hell" What? when did killing people suddenly become ok? To take another sentient beings life is never to be taken lightly... it almost reminds me of what mothers say to their children "would you jump off a bridge if they did?".
Wait... let me just answer your question. What would god have to do to make me believe? Well... i am not selfish enough to ask god to solve all my problems to prove his existance. I say he should just send jesus back and we can all chat over coffee and donuts, maybe a have a smoke... catch up on whats happening... Then again the second coming of jesus is Death to all non belivers, then it would save me the trouble of growing old, and save me lots of pain and suffering in this world. Hell? ehhh, if i go to hell there is not much i can do about it because Supposudly god made me who i am, am i right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seriously need to learn the difference between having faith and ascribing to a religion. Not for anyone else's sake but your own. As a Christian I draw a clear line between where my faith ends and my religion begins. Religion is a code or system of traditions and customs, etc. Faith is the believe in something greater than oneself. Religion based on faith is commendable. Faith based solely on a religion is empty and meaningless.
People doing things "in God's name" is in no way the same as doing things "at God's bidding." Look to some of the previous posts both of myself and others concerning paying lipservice to a deity and not believing in it truly.
Somewhere in excess of 200 Million people died between 1900-2000 in warfare-related deaths.
Most of them were caused by Mao Zedong, Stalin, and Hitler. Hitler claimed religious justification for his actions, but nowhere in the bible is killing, hatred of anyone, or tyranny supported.
No religious justification, really, is found in the Crusades. The early Catholic church exploited people, and sent them off to die. But find one spot where Christ wants us to go and kill.
Matthew 20:52 <span style='color:red'>"Put your sword back in its place," </span>Jesus said to him,<span style='color:red'> "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a god, the only thing i would feel is hate, hatred for a god that decided that he wanted people to blindly follow him, with no guidence. How much death and destruction has been in god's name? simply to further bolster the ranks of his followers? For what purpose? for what reason? Look what he Supposudly did back in the early days of civilization! His son, dead rose from the grave... Why start a movement in a time where 99% of the people couldn't read, couldn't think for gods sake. They lived a simple and uneducated life, blind to what happens around them. You could almost say we now see the world clearer then back 2000 odd years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blindly follow with no guidance? Nevermind the Holy Spirit, the bible, and the teachings of Christ. Never mind the apostles given direction to go out to specific places and teach what Christ taught them, never mind that, that's not guidance!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is god afraid of getting proven wrong? does he not want to talk in a civil conversation with some of the great minds of today? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but the idea of an omnipotent being, proved wrong? By his own creation, no less?
The bible pretty much stands on it's own, there's simply no need for that. The intelligent deisgn movement hasn't been dealt any crucial blows, and Churches still continue to grow.
The people who are saying that God needs to prove Himself are usually the people who wouldn't believe Him if he came down from heaven right in front of their eyes.
The people who are saying that God needs to prove Himself are usually the people who wouldn't believe Him if he came down from heaven right in front of their eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on the other hand, the people who believe in God would still believe even if he never ever came down from there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
God just seems....wrong. He created everything, and yet the world has so many bad things happening in it. But, no, let's not blame God for that. Instead we should believe in God, go to Church every Sunday, and accept whatever happens no matter what. And only then do we get to go to Heaven.
The people who are saying that God needs to prove Himself are usually the people who wouldn't believe Him if he came down from heaven right in front of their eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on the other hand, the people who believe in God would still believe even if he never ever came down from there <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
God just seems....wrong. He created everything, and yet the world has so many bad things happening in it. But, no, let's not blame God for that. Instead we should believe in God, go to Church every Sunday, and accept whatever happens no matter what. And only then do we get to go to Heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, nicely put.
I... I can't add anything to improve it.
It's truly beautiful!
I beg to differ:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chronicles 2 13:13
13 Now Jeroboam had sent troops around to the rear, so that while he was in front of Judah the ambush was behind them. 14 Judah turned and saw that they were being attacked at both front and rear. Then they cried out to the LORD . The priests blew their trumpets 15 and the men of Judah raised the battle cry. At the sound of their battle cry, God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah. 16 The Israelites fled before Judah, and God delivered them into their hands. 17 Abijah and his men inflicted heavy losses on them, so that there were five hundred thousand casualties among Israel's able men. 18 The men of Israel were subdued on that occasion, and the men of Judah were victorious because they relied on the LORD , the God of their fathers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Samuel 6:19
But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy [3] of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Numbers 16:16
16 Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow-you and they and Aaron. 17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the LORD . You and Aaron are to present your censers also." 18 So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."
22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"
23 Then the LORD said to Moses, 24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' "
25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins." 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [3] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"
35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
36 The LORD said to Moses, 37 "Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the smoldering remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy- 38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites."
39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned up, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar, 40 as the LORD directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the LORD , or he would become like Korah and his followers.
41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. "You have killed the LORD's people," they said.
42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the Tent of Meeting, 44 and the LORD said to Moses, 45 "Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." And they fell facedown.
46 Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD ; the plague has started." 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. 50 Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, for the plague had stopped.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It came from the bible!
You're assuming that A) We believe God exists, and B) We believe the bible is authenic!
You can't use bible references, because it is a bad source.
It came from the bible!
You're assuming that A) We believe God exists, and B) We believe the bible is authenic!
You can't use bible references, because it is a bad source. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well he said there was no place in the bible where they condone killing. Gee, in these three passages, not only did the disciples (Or whatever the hell they're called) commit atrocities, but god himself decided it was fun to kill 20,000 people for doing what Moses said. God proves his existence by smiting an entire city.
And I mean: C'mon, 500,000 people?! That's larger then the population of some countries! If he was a kind, loving god, you think they could've made up some **** story (instead of that one) like 'and god made their weapons and armor rust, and their horses come up lame, and blah blah killing is a naughty deed and the priest is gonna spank you for it'.
Its really hard to use OT references when hes talking about the years 1900-2000. It is a fact that more people have died in warfare this century than in all centuries previous. And of these wars that killed more than any other, lets go through them and try and see which ones were religious.
The Boer War - evil muslims tried to take over SA? NO! Brits vs dutch, no religion involved. The First World War - again, it was Western vs Western, religion was not the cause. Then we have the second world war - again no religious motivation. Korea - same. Vietnam - same. The Falklands- same. Desert storm - same.
Lets go back a little further in history - Napoleon, no religion. The hundred years war - no religion. American war for independance, american civil war. None of these had religious motivations.
Pretty much the only major religious war you guys can bring up is the Crusades, in which a mere million died. Stalin killed in the tens of millions, and he was pure atheist. Mao kills hundreds of thousands - atheist.
This is the last time I am posting this information. I am sick and tired of giving this out. Several of you posting here have DEFINATELY seen it before, have NEVER brought up a decent reply, and yet will continue making the same, ignorant statement.
Religion doesnt start wars - people start wars, get over it.