To All Atheists...what Would It Take
kida
Join Date: 2003-02-20 Member: 13778Members
Join Date: 2003-02-20 Member: 13778Members
<div class="IPBDescription">for you to become a theist, a believer?</div> Evolutionists, deists, and agonstics; whatever, you name it!
The problem I see with Christianity is a problem to many. Blinded by faith, a lot of Christians will force their principles down your neck. But there are others who like to show their love for God through their actions and works. And many like me, are hypocrites, people who don't know the threshold between faith and reason.
There were times that I didn't believe in God and doubted his ways, but I couldn't escape him, and never will be able to. God is part of my foundation, you could shake the walls, but the foundation would still be there. Eventually, the house will have to be builded again.
What I am asking you people who don't believe in God and those of you who do, but don't know for sure, is this:
If by any chance you were to believe in God, to under what cirmcumstances would "you" come to believe in him? And why?
Perhaps, scientific evidence would help? This has been talked a lot, especially in the evolution threads. Or maybe a personal visit from God?
The problem I forsee is this: the coming of faith.
I guess in this phrase, I am already answering my question; to believe in God would require a leap of faith. Correct or incorrect? You choose. It is your life; the possibilities are there.
The problem I see with Christianity is a problem to many. Blinded by faith, a lot of Christians will force their principles down your neck. But there are others who like to show their love for God through their actions and works. And many like me, are hypocrites, people who don't know the threshold between faith and reason.
There were times that I didn't believe in God and doubted his ways, but I couldn't escape him, and never will be able to. God is part of my foundation, you could shake the walls, but the foundation would still be there. Eventually, the house will have to be builded again.
What I am asking you people who don't believe in God and those of you who do, but don't know for sure, is this:
If by any chance you were to believe in God, to under what cirmcumstances would "you" come to believe in him? And why?
Perhaps, scientific evidence would help? This has been talked a lot, especially in the evolution threads. Or maybe a personal visit from God?
The problem I forsee is this: the coming of faith.
I guess in this phrase, I am already answering my question; to believe in God would require a leap of faith. Correct or incorrect? You choose. It is your life; the possibilities are there.
Comments
So in short God would have to come down from Heaven or wherever and show me He existed.
He would then have some explaining to do, such as evolution, the creation of the universe, how he can actually even exist ect.
I was a Christian for many years. But gradually, I started to ask myself: "Do I actually believe in God?". And the answer I ended up with was no. Nothing any Christian, Muslim, Jew or any other religious person has shown me demonstrates in any way that God or Gods exist.
Far too much (in fact, just about all) of religion is based upon faith: the blind acceptance that something is true without a shread of evidance. I can't warp my mind to do that. You could more easily convince me that I could fly than convince me that Jesus was the son of god.
So yeah, don't try. I have a born-again sister who harps at me to "accept my true faith" and "save my soul". I get enough of that from her. Atheists are perfectly happy being atheists; just leave us alone and we'll leave you alone. And don't try to convert us. We gave that up a very long time ago.
If the input of my sensory perceptions contained the necessary evidence to conclude there is a god then I would believe it because it would be logical. The criteria is equal for belief in any entity. Faith means belief without evidence and is the path to failure. Just as I look over a road to make sure there are no cars before I cross, I have to look at the universe before I can say how it functions. My conclusions will be based solely on what I can percieve as there is no other standard of measurement for a human.
Faith is a plague over humanity. When people believe without thinking, they will do horrendous things to others, and often to themselves as well. Logic is the only way we can function in this world, faith is giving up logic, and I would rather die than give that up.
What evidence would I need to believe? If you mean a supernatural entity as gods are often described as being, then no evidence will suffice. The evidence of the rational world can never prove something outside of its scope. A supernatural god would not governed by the rules of this universe and thus the evidence presented to me would be powerless in proving that god's existance.
A natural god is another matter, since it would not be a god but simply a rational entity. The evidence requirement for me believing this is the same as I would have in believing in the existance of another person or object.
(If I did come to faith, it probably wouldn't be christianity I'd be converting to)
My advice, leave them alone. What they believe and why they believe is none of your business. Just stick to your own faith. This advice goes to atheists also.
My dead sister, aged the 10 years she's been dead, alive, breathing and hugging me. My Father clean, sober, and actuallly help pay for my college. My friend who might have to get her "plumbing" taken out able to have tons of healthy children.
and I want to see the water to wine trick. The parting of the Red sea.
I would need to see miracles that only a truly omnipotent being could perpetuate.
If my dead sister came back, I wouldn't just have faith again, i would become a priest or monk.
He says words to the effect that you need no evidence, that you need faith and that he cannot exist without faith.
If god were ever to be proved to exist, then faith vanishes, thus god also vanishes, thus god cannot be proved to exist facilitating faith facilitating god facilitating proof facilitating his demise (you get the picture at this point).
God cannot be proven to exist. Therefore, until such a time that he CAN be proven to exist, he does not exist. And when he is proven to exist, he will cease to exist by his own article of faith.
It is possible that if enough people believe that god exists that he will come into being, that, the idea of god would create his existence, but this is highly improbable.
Fact: There is no "Property of God" written anywhere in the genetic code, the laws of physics nor with a bunch of galaxies seen from earth. There is no proof that god exists.
Fact: People believe in god.
Fact: Religion ultimately has it's roots in it's creation: A way to explain the world without any knowledge of it. Where do we go when we die? Heaven/hell. Why did that tree vaporise due to that blindingly loud flash of light? God willed it. Why did those people die in the flood? God's will.
In essence, Religion's role in society is to fill in the gaps, set morals, and make life less of a futile existence. For some people, religion is perfect, they accept it, and they live perfectly happy lives. For others, religion is not an answer to how the world functions, but is more of a mystery. And for others still, religion is more of an excuse to explain things beyond peoples understanding.
I stopped believing in god a long time ago. Strange how it took 6 years of sunday school and a further 3 years of catholic education for me to come to that conclusion.
I found it strange. God is everywhere. He hears your prayers and knows what you will do before you do it. And yet, you have to go to church every sunday, and confess your sins to some stranger to be forgiven by god/jesus. Somehow, that seemed a bit flawed. If god is everywhere, then what is wrong with praying in my room for his forgiveness?
Also. If god is all knowing, and all understanding, then he would know why I have done what I have done and can therefore understand my reasoning. Also, if god is all forgiving, then why does not everyone go to heaven?
Furthermore. If god exists and created the universe. How did god come into existence? Just ***Pop!*** "Hey wow! My name is god!". I cannot accept that god has and always will exist or simply came out of nowhere any more then big bang theorists can accept the steady state theory of the universe or creationists can accept evolution or the big bang theory.
Also. If the Bible is the word of god, why is there no mention of Dinosaurs? Why is there no mention of future issues that he would have had the wiseness and all-knowingness to dictate for us and future generations? How does the existence of God account for the prescence of fossils present that radioactive dating methods prove to be far older then 10,000 years? And why is there a huge infinite universe hanging past our atmosphere? Did god just make it for show thinking "Hey! Look what I can do!"
Theres simply no point in going to such lengths if the universe revolved around our and gods existence.
I can sooner believe that the universe came about due to a dimensional collapse then I can a God that contradicts himself, a faith that contradicts itself, and a gigantic illusion created to satisfy us.
In short: God has not claimed credit for his work. Until such a time as he does, his ordained faith gets a grade F on plausibility from me.
That is real. That is the deal. That is how I feel.
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I would not go as far as to say that faith is giving up logic, its just a different form of logic. for me, it is perfectly logical that there is a God who created me and loves me and whats me to love him in return. That belief for you is illogical, but the argument works both ways. Your belief in a universe without any sort of supreme being, where humans are the end result of millions of 'logical' accidents is, to me, absurd. I feel it takes away the value of human life, which i belive is illogical.
I would like to say this though. Just because you believe in God doesnt mean you worship him. Even the devil believes in God. The big issue is what you do with your faith - do you put it into practice or do you ignore it.
I suppose you want an explanation eh?
When God created the world, it was perfect - "God saw what he had done, and it was good" When God created man, in order to have a meaningful relationship with him, he gave man free will. Some of the angels were jealous of the attention God gave to man, and there was a massive battle in heavem after which Lucifer and his demons (fallen angels) were cast down to earth. That was when things went pear-shaped. Lucifer tempted Eve, she fell and tempted Adam, he fell and we end up with the situation we are in today.
What would it take for me to believe again?
It'd take a big giant hand to come down from the sky, ruffle my hair and go "hey gemmy, I exist dontcha know and I gotta whooole lotta lovin for ya" lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
What's with it being the girls (eve) who have to be the temptacious downfall of man anyways?
I suppose you want an explanation eh?
When God created the world, it was perfect - "God saw what he had done, and it was good" When God created man, in order to have a meaningful relationship with him, he gave man free will. Some of the angels were jealous of the attention God gave to man, and there was a massive battle in heavem after which Lucifer and his demons (fallen angels) were cast down to earth. That was when things went pear-shaped. Lucifer tempted Eve, she fell and tempted Adam, he fell and we end up with the situation we are in today. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, yay incest, creating civilization since god magically appeared.
please, lets not turn this into a topic on evolution, i can see it heading there already. If you have questions, use the many other threads on that topic
I have never smelled proof of God.
I have never seen proof of God.
I have never tasted proof of God.
I have never felt proof of God.
I'd need one of my 5 senses to say to me "This is God" and I'd believe. Short of that, I'd need some reasonable proof. I'd need a testable way to show that God exists. Since faith is the only way that one "finds" God, I doubt any of these will be presented to me anytime soon.
I too, am agnostic. I can't prove that God doesn't exist, so I can't really say that I'm an atheist. I'm more definitively on the atheist side of agnosism though.
If the atheists are right and we die, no big deal we all just stop existing. However, if religous folk are right, then the athiests go to hell.
Why not believe as an insurance policy? You know, just in case...
I don't believe in religions for one main reason:
i believe that their function is to apply some basic rules of good to people. I mean arent most religions about being 'good'...
And a 2nd thing i dont believe anything is ultimatly good nor evil. I really really dont like how Christianity makes that image.
Do we really need some big rolemodel for us to be kind humanbeings?
So long as you have children, your children have children, and your childrens children have children, then your genetic code, the fractal pattern that began the grander fractal pattern of yourself is essentially immortal.
I recognise that even when my family dies, that their genetic code lives on in and through me. I recognise that even though my physical death is inevitable, my genes, my ancestors genes, and the genes of my children, will continue so long as the family line continues.
If your talking clinical immortality though, as in living forever, I hardly see the point if possible. If one could live forever, one would grow bored after a thousand years or so, barring remarkable new experiences.
Bah, I'm taking this off topic. Right. God.
I tend to think that nature does not reveal all it's secrets to man. That no matter how advanced we become that there will always be some underlying principle we havent yet underpinned. The truth can be stranger then fiction, or faith. God may be more mystyfying and perplexing a being then we may ever have concieved of. It's all well and good to label "All powerful" "All knowing" but these are human terms for an inhuman entity. So long as the nature of god remains a mystery, god cannot be proven. So long as god cannot be proven, god will exist. So long as god cannot be proven, atheists/agnostics will exist. It is a matter that the faithful will have to accept. That not everyone is willing to accept the word of god anymore then they are willing to accept the words of reason put forth by atheists.
Until such a time as another habitable planet is found, Atheists/Those of Faith will have to live with each other whether they like it or not.
If the atheists are right and we die, no big deal we all just stop existing. However, if religous folk are right, then the athiests go to hell.
Why not believe as an insurance policy? You know, just in case...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pascal's Wager has been discussed to death. The simplest argument against it is: "How do you know which religion?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm solidly agnostic ("I do not know whether there is a god" vs. "there is no god" of atheists)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Atheism means "without theism" and nothing more. I never stated that a god does not exist, I only stated that I live without belief in a god. It is a common misconception that atheists positively state that gods do not exist.
<b>Z.X. Bogglesteinsky:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would not go as far as to say that faith is giving up logic, its just a different form of logic. for me, it is perfectly logical that there is a God who created me and loves me and whats me to love him in return. That belief for you is illogical, but the argument works both ways. Your belief in a universe without any sort of supreme being, where humans are the end result of millions of 'logical' accidents is, to me, absurd. I feel it takes away the value of human life, which i belive is illogical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I do not have a positive belief in a lack of a supernatural being.
Second, what are you babbling about?
<i>"...belief in a universe without any sort of supreme being, where humans are the end result of millions of 'logical' accidents is, to me, absurd. I feel it takes away the value of human life, which i belive is illogical."</i>
You position is that a lack of a god is illogical due to you thinking evolution is absurd and that the lack of a god takes away from human life? Your thoughts do nothing to alter reality, thinking something is absurd or feeling your life is devalued by reality will not change it.
<i>"I would not go as far as to say that faith is giving up logic, its just a different form of logic. for me, it is perfectly logical that there is a God who created me and loves me and whats me to love him in return."</i>
Logic relies on premises. Certainly you can take the premise that a god exists, but that would be stupid because it is an unjustified premise. Your "form" of logic is rooted in ridiculous premises. The basic premises on which we can logically reason are our senses. Anything not built up from that foundation can not stand on its own as an argument about reality.
Would that not be a mockery of the system? We wouldn't truely believe in god even if we said we did. If we're wrong, and we end up going to hell, so be it. However, because we do not believe in such a hell, we would see little point in taking out insurance on it. It would be like trying to take out insurance against getting murdered by Orcs. Orcs don't exist <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Hence there's no need for insurance, in our eyes at least.
In early adolescence a majority of teens start to rebel against their parents and their parents foundational beleifs, if my opinion i beleive this is brought on by a need for independance and change, also the feeling of "temporary immortatlity" if i can say that.....In other words they have all the time in the world to do what they want with their whole lives ahead of them. Now i'm going to skip alot of steps until you reach later life, 40's, 50's, 60's. Alot of people in these age brackets are starting to get on in their life, their offspring have left the house, they have a mate, and are ready to settle down into a more or less static pattern until they die (I.E. either being active, or inactive) Once they have nothing more to really look forward to in life, they've completed most of what they feel they're "purpose" was. the idea of "faith" or something equivilent becomes much more plausible; they may never find an organized releigion, god, or anything remotely related; what i'm saying is as one gets older the probablity that they will find something beyond our observational reality get higher. I'm making a society observation based on majority and trends. I guess my point is, that alot of people change consistently with a pattern throughout their lives, and if you wanted to try and analyze people at a small or even individual basis, its completely dependent on the three variables that i listed earlier.
woo, i think i got most of what i wanted to say in there =).
As Ryo-Ohki and Menix pointed out , this is a flawed logic : firstly , we aren't afraid of such irrational threats , God isn't going to obtain our faith in him through racket ; secondly , even if we were scared to death , there are just too many choices : for instance , I wouldn't like to be reincarnated in a rat for not believing in Buddhism or any other Easter religion , but being punished by Allah , Yeovah or God is no less scary. Don't you think that Muslims are right to believe you will go to hell for not aknowledging the teachings of Mahomet ? Just like you believe they will go to hell for not aknowledging the teachings of Jesus.
And what if your senses are lying? It has been said that nobody sees the same colour (ie, what i see as blue, you may call green) We only call them the same colour because that is what we have been brought up to think. So, who sees the <i>actual</i> colour blue? Who is to say that he is right and everyone else is wrong when everybody is just as in the dark as everyone else? When your senses fail you, what are you left with? You cannot reason anything, and your premise is based on something you cannot trust, it is just blind faith that what your sense are telling you is true. Your premise is just as illogical as mine.
Oh, and about the "insurance policy" idea:
- As Ryo-Ohki said, if you believed just as a matter of safety or insurance, that's not the real "spirit" of the religion. It would be a very shallow application of the idea.
- Also. This is the major reason I am an atheist -- I want to have free will and I want to live my life as it ought to be lived. I don't believe in an afterlife, so when I die, I want to know that I did everything I possibly could have wanted to do. 'Because if you cross the street and get hit by a cement truck -- Wham! You'll be sorry you put off your pleasures!' (That's from calvin & hobbes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
It's almost a sort of "honor" thing. I want to live with the knowledge that I am not being held back, suppressed, or controlled by any imaginary force. I want to know -- <b>know</b> -- that my mind is free.
Senses do not lie, they transmit electronic pulses. How these pulses are interpreted is up to the mind, but there is not such thing as a "false pulse". A sense never tell you that "there is a house over there". Instead, you receive impulses from your eyes and come to the conclusion that there is a house over there. That conclusion may be false as it could be a mirage or an illusion. However, the mistake is not due to any fault in the senses, it is due to the mind's inability to differentiate between a true house and an illusion.
What you state is that we have nothing to base our lives upon and that we should just guess what's right and what's not. That is false, as we have sensory input to base our lives upon. We do not HAVE to conclude a house exists just because we can see it with our eyes and it looks like a house. But we can, with inductive logic, conclude that it is most likely a house.
Now tell me, what sensory input have you had that you used to come to the conclusion that there is a supernatural entity? What do you base your belief of a god upon? If you say faith, then you have given up logic.
- As Ryo-Ohki said, if you believed just as a matter of safety or insurance, that's not the real "spirit" of the religion. It would be a very shallow application of the idea.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Crisqo's post about an "insurance" policy was kind of a non-serious statement/borderline sarcasm. Based on his previous posts in other threads about true faith, I don't think he actually meant it as a serious, "I'll just say I believe, but not really mean it" type of thing. So...quit trying to steer off topic on something that doesn't need discussing...at this moment in time.
Faith IS a kind of 'logic' -- and it's that kind of 'logic' that left Western civilization in a Dark Age for about 500 years. When we assume there is a God ultimately responsible for everything, we stop trying to explain things on our own... and we stagnate. In that respect, religion is rather childish, right down to its terminology... I WISH I had a heavenly 'father' to forgive me for everything I do wrong... why strive for anything when all I have to do is believe in god to live forever in happiness?
Senses do not lie, they transmit electronic pulses. How these pulses are interpreted is up to the mind, but there is not such thing as a "false pulse". A sense never tell you that "there is a house over there". Instead, you receive impulses from your eyes and come to the conclusion that there is a house over there. That conclusion may be false as it could be a mirage or an illusion. However, the mistake is not due to any fault in the senses, it is due to the mind's inability to differentiate between a true house and an illusion.
What you state is that we have nothing to base our lives upon and that we should just guess what's right and what's not. That is false, as we have sensory input to base our lives upon. We do not HAVE to conclude a house exists just because we can see it with our eyes and it looks like a house. But we can, with inductive logic, conclude that it is most likely a house.
Now tell me, what sensory input have you had that you used to come to the conclusion that there is a supernatural entity? What do you base your belief of a god upon? If you say faith, then you have given up logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was not to get all scientific and technical, I was trying to point out that you rely just as much on a premise based on faith - that your senses do not lie - as I do in believing in the existence of God.
If the atheists are right and we die, no big deal we all just stop existing. However, if religous folk are right, then the athiests go to hell.
Why not believe as an insurance policy? You know, just in case... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, I'm not religious myself. But I got the picture that god loved us all. The Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism all believe in something, in their definition of a surpreme being(s) (just as christians) and in principle the same thing.
I think religion only serves as possible explanations. I do believe god is in the universe, in all of us and in everything. We are all part of a divine thing and god is simply the full picture. Sorry but I cant really put words on how I feel about it and my head aches <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Senses do not lie, they transmit electronic pulses. How these pulses are interpreted is up to the mind, but there is not such thing as a "false pulse". A sense never tell you that "there is a house over there". Instead, you receive impulses from your eyes and come to the conclusion that there is a house over there. That conclusion may be false as it could be a mirage or an illusion. However, the mistake is not due to any fault in the senses, it is due to the mind's inability to differentiate between a true house and an illusion.
What you state is that we have nothing to base our lives upon and that we should just guess what's right and what's not. That is false, as we have sensory input to base our lives upon. We do not HAVE to conclude a house exists just because we can see it with our eyes and it looks like a house. But we can, with inductive logic, conclude that it is most likely a house.
Now tell me, what sensory input have you had that you used to come to the conclusion that there is a supernatural entity? What do you base your belief of a god upon? If you say faith, then you have given up logic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was not to get all scientific and technical, I was trying to point out that you rely just as much on a premise based on faith - that your senses do not lie - as I do in believing in the existence of God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't believe your senses you have no point of reference for anything. I fail to see how one can operate in any life in such a fashion. It's not so much faith in my senses as I cannot operate without them. It's a necessary part of life.