Wow, this thread has grown quite considerably. Thanksgiving was great; the splendours of food are yum.
Jammer, that article is pretty neat. Although it is Dinesh D'Souza's interpetation of what perception is, it relates to a lot of things in life.
This is a common belief by many, even Stephen Hawking, that what we believe to be true can be totally different at another point in the universe. Until humans reach complete thought, which will probably never happen, we will never know the truth behind God. Well, unless someone dies and comes back to tell us, the answer is likely no.
Anyways, if someone came up to you and said God exists, and showed you the evidence supporting his belief, whether scientific or non-scientific, I think you would have a much harder time believing in the evidence than God. Same can be said for the people who say they need a vision from God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's called a security blanket. The general populace can't accept the fact that there is nothing more to their lives then to live and die,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that the purpose of religion and God, to offer hope and a desire that there is an afterlife and whatnot?
Generally, we should envy those who are stubborn in faith. At least they have something to look forward to when you and sometimes even I, die.
I think what it would take for an atheist to become a believer is to realize there is a clear delineation between a "person of religion" and a "person of faith." When you look at the development of any form of religion, you'll find that it started with a small group or even a single person who believed in a similar group of ideas. As they attempted to communicate this set of ideas, they agreed on basic principles involved and how to communicate these principles. Eventually, as their set of beliefs spread, writing was the only way to maintain the consistency of the faith they were expounding. The Christians have their Bible, the Jews the Talmud, the Muslims the Quran/Koran, the Hindus the Bhagavad-Gita and so on. The key to any religion is that it was originally based on a person's/persons' faith in something greater than themselves.
It's easy to attack my religion. As a Christian, I have been known to do it myself. I'm a firm believer in church reforms and certain liberal stances regarding church policies and the church's methods of spreading the Word. However, my faith is unassailable, and it is something that guides me both in my conscious thoughts, words and actions as well as the unconscious ways I respond the environment around me. The Bible is a set of instructions for how I feel I should live my life, mostly in the New Testament. Matthew 7, Collosians 3 and several other chapters come readily to mind. The Book of Job is great inspiration for me and renews my belief that life is full of trials for us all, tailored to test us most. I've been saved since I was 16, and now I'm just over 20. I came from a family where my grandmother crammed Southern Baptist dogma down my throat and my father let me make up my own mind. I started going to church of my own accord, and was the only one in my house going while I still went. I've had my falls, quite a few of them.
But at the same time, I always turned back to faith. Attacking my faith is pointless, goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing. I've seen plenty of things that have altered the credibility of the church in my eyes, but have yet to see anything that legitimately shook my faith.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 13 2003, 09:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 13 2003, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I said earlier in a post, DNA decides how we are buildt, how our brains interacts with the impulses we get from the senses. It's a construction plan really. But is it more true than the grey-visioned dog? How can we deny the way we see things is wrong? Your difficulty with seeing red is genetic, but so is everything we see, hardcoded into the DNA and your problem was just a slight stray from the construction plan (but not less true) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to make a slight dispute to your post.
The genetic code does not, and cannot program how a life form is built, nor where and how all the capillaries will form and chemical reactions that will take place.
What the genetic code DOES do, is lay the foundation of the underlying fractal pattern that creates them.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Oct 14 2003, 02:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Oct 14 2003, 02:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The genetic code does not, and cannot program how a life form is built, nor where and how all the capillaries will form and chemical reactions that will take place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it does, and organs know how to develop (and why) via intra/extracellular signals that are produced (and here's the da dum) by <b>genetic</b> elements that are turned on and off. Depending on what a certain set of genes called hox box genes do in fact encode where things are positioned for example. Mutations in hox box genes can shift legs to the eye sockets, create more legs, make 2 abdomens (and apparently they made a 3 headed fly too) and a huge variety of other bits and pieces.
As for the chemical reaction part, that is an utterly absurd statement. All chemical reactions are at their basic level controlled by DNA. Regulation of your DNA decides if a cell is a muscle (stirated or smooth), nervous or skin cell. Every reaction in the body is carefully controlled via feedback systems that are ultimately controlled on a DNA level (even if it is indirectly). Without proteins that MUST be produced from DNA no chemical reactions can ever occur, and this is itself regulated at a DNA level!
Quite frankly, DNA determines virtually everything but a few things.
Jammer: Thanks for posting that, I think anyone who wants to call themselves a bright is pretty daft to begin with!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr. Dennett added that "we brights don't believe in ghosts or elves or the Easter bunny or God." His implication was clear: Brights are the smart people who don't fall for silly superstitions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Ghosts are disputable but I can certainly agree that the easter bunny doesn't exist <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thanks for the lesson, filled some gaps in my knowledge there...
But there are those that say genes rule absolutely everything, which simply isnt true.
If that were, true, then I would be ignorant and wouldnt have gone past primary education if my father is anything to go by.
Murderers and rapists children would always recommit their fathers crimes without fail.
And if my genetics do control my thoughts, then were they pre ordained to make me think my thoughts?
Though I was mostly wrong in my statement, the genes do lay the foundation of the underlying fractal pattern.
In simpler terms? The genes say make these chemicals, to interact with those chemicals. These organs should be shaped like this, or like that, there should be oh so many arms, and oh so many legs.
The genes do not however, dictate exactly where capillaries and blood vessels will go with absolute precision, and that was the point I was belatedly tring to make...
I think.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do not believe. However, if something gave me reason to believe, and I did believe... who's to say I'm religious? I would not worship him, and follow his "rules". It's like telling me that this frog is on my table - 'no, there is no frog there'. then, tell me there is a cup on my table. -'oh, okay, yep. okay, that cup is there.' this does not mean that i care, or that i acknowledge that it is omnipotent, all powerful, the Big Man. i am simply accepting its existance.
however, i dont believe in 'god'. and i do not want to believe - religion is counter-productive.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Oct 14 2003, 12:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Oct 14 2003, 12:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By my own personal Jesus Christ, Dinesh D'Souza.
Not So 'Bright' Atheists aren't as rational as they think.
BY DINESH D'SOUZA Sunday, October 12, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT
"We have always had atheists among us," ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with Kant's, but not the conclusion Dinesh reaches.. We're not arguing the possibility (I think) that god exists, but being rationel is to demand proof for something instead of blindly believe it.
I'm not just an atheist, I'm a <a href='http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/faqs.html' target='_blank'>Humanist</a>. This allows me to drive forward towards my goals in life. Theism will <b>never</b> play a part in it, however. I simply cannot ever accept something that is bound purely by faith in what someone else wants me to believe. God did not come down to Earth and speak to you as a child, recite the bible to you, and tell you to believe that his only son, Jesus Christ, was born of the virgin Mary. Yet you are a Christian and you believe in this god. These stories were told to you by other people. You believe them, because you believe that your parents or your elders would not lie to you. Your parents had the same upbringing. If you have children some day, you will pass along those stories and that belief to them, as well. This will continue indefinitely until someone breaks out of it.
That is my problem with religion. None of it is based on allowing an individual to choose for him/herself what to believe in. You are force-fed a belief system by your parents. If your parents were satanists, you'd be a satanist, too. If your parents were Muslim, bam... you're Muslim too. There are all kinds of stories and faiths... how can all of them be correct? The obvious answer is that none of them are correct. They are just stories designed to make you into a better person... in the Christian world that means someone who obeys the ten commandments. Those ten commandments were put forth to control the populous. They are there to ensure a civil society. Nothing more. Fear of Hell and reward in Heaven are the mechanisms (bribes) by which religion is able to control people. Every major religion has these exact same tenets. Punishment and reward. This works for training children how to behave, and it works for training dogs how to behave. We're all animals, and animals can be conditioned.
I was able to break free of the religious brainwashing I was given as a child by the time I got into High School. I was introduced to evolution in a 9th grade biology class. Evolution answered <b>so many</b> questions I had that I was convinced the story of Creation was completely bogus. I have never looked back. Hate to use the word epiphany, but it sure was an awakening. I think my mind was primed for that event much earlier in my life, however. I recall sitting in sunday school... probably only 6 or 7 years old... and I asked the teachers there "how do you know that God exists?" They responded that "it's faith." So even early on I was questioning the Christian brainwashing system and not just blindly accepting what I was told.
My goal is not to find something that will allow me to believe in a supreme deity. My goal is to convince faith-believers that there is a middle-ground between atheism and theism. It's called Humanism. Stop trying to convince me that there's a god. Never going to happen. Instead, understand what religion actually does for you as a person and try to realize that I for one do not require that same set of beliefs. I can behave properly in a society without the "fear of God." Release your desires to try and convert everyone to Christianity. Having a majority does not make your religion "right." Instead, help us work towards bettering humanity by preserving the Earth and ensuring our children will have a better life than we did. Some concepts in religion are counter-productive to preserving the Earth, and that really pisses me off.
I beleive that God uses different methods to reach different people. Is it impossible that all religions are correct? Consider the basic tenents of all religions: "Do not kill, do not steal, do not rape. These are principles of every man of every faith can embrace." A cultures warp this message to their interpretation of justice and good and evil, but the underlying core is the same.
People can choose whatever faith the want. Just because their parents attempt to train them in one does not prevent them from taking part in another.
The simple-minded blindly follow it. The great scientists reject it. And for the rest of us, we don't know what to think of it.
The only question science hasn't been able to answer is how we and the universe came to be. The simple-minded few say it is God's work, but there is no proof behind it. Some people will believe anything they are told. Somewhere in our sad history of human events, some guy invented religion, and every simple-minded person since has followed religion to explain things they can't explain.
The great scientists of the world create theories to try to explain how the universe came to be. They look at relationships and patterns, and the best they've come up with is the Big Bang theory which explains HOW the universe was created. Yet, we are still lacking the knowledge of WHY the universe was created.
And as for the rest of us, we still ponder why things are the way they are. We use logic like the great scientists, but can't help but wonder if religion is correct. However, it isn't easy to believe in religion. They are hypocritical enough as it is. With all the religions out there, the odds you picked the right religion is 1%. If "faith" is the concept all these religions stress, well all of them are saying "Trust us! Join our religion!" I truly believe if you have put enough thought into religion, you will be in this category.
If you're an athiest, you have no problems. Likewise, if you are a hardcore spiritual person, you have no problems. It is those of us inbetween that have the hard time.
It always struck me as odd that so many people need a <b>WHY?</b> to everything... whether it be the point in life to the existance of... well... everything and our universe. In having no purpose, for some there is freedom, for some there is no hope. I find freedom without purpose personally ^^
~pokes Jammer with a copy of boondock saints~ <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Oct 14 2003, 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Oct 14 2003, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People can choose whatever faith the want. Just because their parents attempt to train them in one does not prevent them from taking part in another. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See that's the problem. Were you raised a Christian? Are you still a Christian? Would you ever consider becoming Muslim? Jewish? Hindu? Buddhist? How many people actually switch to a different religion? Not denomination... complete religion. It's not like you're raised in an open environment, given all the choices of religion laid out in front of you for you to decide once you are of a certain age. It's not like your choice of college or choice of major. I was pushed through religion and brainwashed far before I was able to make a decision on my own. I didn't even know what other religions were out there until I reached High School. How can you possibly avoid the Christian onslaught when no other choices are even presented to you? Same goes for people in the Muslim worlds... children are not told of alternative religions unless they are referenced as something to be chastised and avoided. You think Christian households in America today are going to teach their children about the virtues of Islam as a possible alternative to Jesus Christ Superstar? <b>Not on your life.</b>
This kind of brainlock leads to extremists willing to blow themselves up in public places. This same mechanism allows cults to form and engulf others. People like to be herded and controlled. It is an inherent trait in nearly every person on this planet. Many other species exhibit the same tendencies. Getting into biology and evolution here, but animals that are prey tend to stick together to avoid being slaughtered by the predators. Only the weak ones will fall victim, and members of the pack watch out for each other. We come from a line of species that were prey at some point in their history. Tigers in India still hunt and kill humans to this day. This instinctual, primal fear of being prey makes women scream and hide when they see even little mice. Thus it makes sense that humans want (and need) organization. Whether governmental or religious. There are some people, however, without this fundamental need. What makes them different? What happened early on in their life, or how is their brain wired differently? Damn good questions.
The most vital period in a person's life are the ages between 0 and 5. Most of who you are comes from how you were raised during this period. From 5 years on, you are pretty much set in stone. Some 85% of the brain's permanent connections are made prior to the 6th birthday. You have free will, and you might change your mind about certain things, but your brain has established most if not all of its important pathways. All of this happens far before you are given the chance to make your own path. Can you even remember when you were 5 years old? Do you remember knowing about every religion and coming up with a choice about which one you'd follow? Of course not. Ridiculous to even suggest such a weird thing.
Raising children is a job all by itself, and how those children turn out is very much a reflection of what the parents did during those formative years. Religion takes up a large chunk of this formation, and it is not easily removed. In most cases, it simply cannot be removed. Just look at how fervent people are in regards to religion. They will attempt to convince others. Safety in numbers. They will defend their beliefs to the death, if need-be. And it's all just faith... no proof, no validity... pure faith. Willing to die for that faith. Pretty remarkable stuff. It is hard-wired into people's brains, and simply cannot be removed or altered. And it if it is altered, it's merely a more fitting version of what they already believe. Reading any number of posts on this board will convince you just how steadfast some people can be in regards to their faith. Look at the title of this thread. For me, I never truly believed what I was told. I was skeptical from an early age and merely went along with it because I was forced to. Introduction to evolution changed everything.
Now for free will. For the vast majority of people, they don't need to change their religion because the one they've been given is good enough. No one seeks to understand the truth because they've been given a panacea that fulfills their needs. Don't question the status quo because there is no need. So it is for the vast majority of people on this planet. You can't let people just make up their own minds at some point in their life and hope they pick the ethical one. That would lead to anarchy in modern human society, as most people just can't grasp the grim reality of our fleeting existence on this planet. Not even I would suggest such a thing, as it would lead to the downfall of humanity.
The governments of the world depend upon this religious brainwashing to maintain control. You think Christian America would ever elect an Islamic president? It's so weird to even think about such a thing that it's almost unmentionable. Just look at how Bush is inserting his faith all across his policies. Faith-based initiatives. Even used Jesus Christ in speeches. God bless America. So it is. Alas, you'll never have to worry about someone like me being voted into office <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Somewhere in our sad history of human events, some guy invented religion, and every simple-minded person since has followed religion to explain things they can't explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think someone sat down and decided religion was something useful to invent. I think it came about as a natural evolutionary progression in a social species... namely homo sapiens. The exact same process is how human languages formed. No one sat down and invented the entire Chinese language and all its 60,000 symbols. It came about as a collection of words and writings that all kinds of people across the land were using to communicate with each other. Slowly but surely, as participants added their own words, a more standard language evolved. Our own language is constantly changing, too. We have geek, newbie, blog, et al. I believe religion follows the same line of social evolution. Probably an interesting topic all by itself. If you're interested in starting one, I'm sure you'd get some replies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you're an athiest, you have no problems. Likewise, if you are a hardcore spiritual person, you have no problems. It is those of us inbetween that have the hard time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come join Humanism <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> No worries about fiery hell or any of that stuff. No heaven, either. But you can drink as much beer as you want!!
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 14 2003, 02:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 14 2003, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find freedom without purpose personally ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think worms feel exactly the same way. Unfortunate for me, I can't accept not knowing. I've often thought about how nice it would be to just not care or not have to know how something works or what its purpose is. "Ignorance is bliss" sums it all up nicely. Prozac might help, I guess.
[Edit]
Ooh, that reminds me of a good movie... "Pi" Anyone see that? The ending to that movie is the relevant part (without spoiling anything.)
<b>On what it would take to get me to believe in God:</b>
Nothing short of concrete scientific proof. The more I've learned about science, the less I needed God to explain things. I like to refer to a Stephen Hawking quote when discussing my Atheism and why I don't believe in God. It goes,
<i>"What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary."</i>
If it's possible to explain things that were previously God's domain through science, is believing in God still rational? If God isn't necessary to any part of the universe, is it rational to think that there's an omnipotent being controlling everything or that there is no omnipotent being to begin with? I don't expect to win over any converts with my arguments. I still don't know enough philosophy to really flesh them out yet.
<b>On the Bright movement:</b>
While I agree with the idea, not being called a "Bright", but achieving social and political influence for atheists, I don't see it working. Atheists are usually too individualistic and too few in numbers to organize any sort of national campaign that would have any noticable effect on politics or society at large. The best most can hope to do is not get yelled at regularly by the 95% of the population that does follow a religion.
I haven't read enough Kant to talk about that. I'll have to add <i>Critique of Pure Reason</i> to the ever growing list of books to get when I have the money to purchase them and the time to read them. I'm busy juggling Aquinas' <i>Summa Theologica</i> and a full college courseload, so it may be a while.
<!--QuoteBegin--Menix+Oct 14 2003, 05:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Menix @ Oct 14 2003, 05:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only rational answer would be: "I want to base my life on an unjustified premise". But since I don't, I'm an atheist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The lack of faith is simply a belief in nothing, which is in itself taken on faith. You're taking for granted that just because you have never seen something, it does not exist. I on the other hand take it for granted that because something exists that is beyond my capabilities, it <b>must</b> exist.
Actually with no 'point' in your existance comes a lack of expectations. If nothing is expected of you, there's no pressure to do things you wouldn't want to do. Personally I find people's need for a reason 'why' kinda simple minded. Curiousity is one thing but "OMG!!! I NEED A REASON OR I'LL CURL UP AND DIE OF DEPRESSION" which is a widespread phenomenon feels rather silly. I'm quite happy to sit and debate all kinds of reasons 'why' but at the end of the day the simple idea that there is no reason whatsoever seems so elegantly rational. Does a tidal wave that wipes out a small village killing lots of people have a reason? It has an origin, but a reason?
If you don't believe in some big white floaty deity then why are you looking for a reason? a 'why'? If it's for curiousity then go ahead and have fun. If it's to fill some egotistical hole in your psyche that demands you need a purpose because you're oh-so important in the cosmos then I'll pity you while I'm off having fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 14 2003, 03:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 14 2003, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The lack of faith is simply a belief in nothing, which is in itself taken on faith. You're taking for granted that just because you have never seen something, it does not exist. I on the other hand take it for granted that because something exists that is beyond my capabilities, it <b>must</b> exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Common misunderstanding about atheism. Atheism is not the "belief in nothing." Quite contrary. Atheists believe there is no supreme being controlling the universe, and that is as far as it goes. From there, they tend to believe in the big bang theory, evolution, and any number of additional theories about how we, and life in general, came to be. Just there is no supreme deity pulling all the strings. You might be confused in that there is no one thing that all atheists subscribe to. Thus you mistakenly think that all atheists believe in nothing. Albert Einstein was technically an atheist, but he believed that the laws of nature were what controlled life and determined how life came to be. He spent his life trying to theorize and then prove what he believed in.
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 14 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 14 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you don't believe in some big white floaty deity then why are you looking for a reason? a 'why'? If it's for curiousity then go ahead and have fun. If it's to fill some egotistical hole in your psyche that demands you need a purpose because you're oh-so important in the cosmos then I'll pity you while I'm off having fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose I should have clarified. I don't seek a reason for why I'm on this planet. For that I know... the biological processes are very simple to understand. Mom and Dad... well you fill in the blanks. I don't think there is a reason for life, and I don't have a need to understand why we're here. There isn't a reason, like you said. But that doesn't satisfy my innate curiosity as to how we came to be and how the universe works. For some of us, finding that alone is more fun than anything else in the world. And it has nothing to do with trying to fill some egotistical hole in my psyche because I think I'm oh-so important in the cosmos. I know I'm just a collection of organic material, mostly water, and that at some point I will die and be recycled like a turret farm that is about to be eaten.
The workings of the brain that allows someone to enjoy himself are the same in all humans. It's a chemical process that triggers pleasure in the brain. The catalyst varies from person to person. For you, it might be collecting stamps. For me, it is solving problems. And so it is. I don't expect you to change, and you shouldn't expect me to, either. Pity those who think there's actually a life everlasting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
lol, okies... sorry I just got a bit irked by the worm comparison I guess =3
That's the reason a lot of people turn to religion as far as I'm concerned though; they need a reason. You always hear from/about religious people sort of going through a low period before they 'find' religion. I just find the whole thing a big ego boost really I mean...
1) Man was made in gods image - now if that isn't a big 'woohoo! we're great' then I don't know what is <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> 2) The Angels got jealous of the attention God gave to Man - We're the favourites!!! Us!!! not you heaven people! We were important enough to start a war in the sky =P 3) God loves us - Some great big uber-thingy in the sky who made the whole universe has time to give you a hug <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know you don't follow this religion Evis, and though I wouldn't label myself a humanist my beliefs are pretty close by the sounds of it. I guess I'm just writing it out to get it clear in my own head. ick, I'm hi-jacking now amn't I? =s ~gives Evis a cookie to make up for being overly-mean~
what makes you feel better about yourself? to think you were created to be the most advanced species, or to think your species pulled itself out of the mud, and from its own genius and creativity, became what it is today, untouchable by anything else on the planet (except maybe self-annihilation, or some invincible virus...)?
I don't know about you all, but I'd rather think I'm near the end of an eons-long evolutionary chain of incredibly adaptive, industrious, and intelligent creatures than think I was just placed by some invisible force, merely to subsist, killing other creatures that were DESIGNED to be 'inferior' to me. I'd rather be picked by mother nature out of the billions (trillions?) of species that ever evolved, rather than get plopped here by the Hand of God just to be another drone...
Duo's ideas of religion are quite easy how they came up. At a time a rich man had a lot of poor people as his workers. The poor people that are uneducated are easily manipulated. So the smart rich man explains that there is some higher being aka "God". So this rich man than said to another rich men about this idea and so on. As the years go by while the poorers numbers rise higher than the rich, the poor with there heads beaten down into believing in some God tell there children. And that generation tells that and so on. Easy eh?
While maybe this is one possibility others are sure to follow.
But one good thing about us Atheists we have nothing to fear after death. Well maybe some of us (Not me though). While the religious people sit there days on end praying that some God wont punish them while we just live our lives. I just accept things as they go on and not worry about something that might or might not be true.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Oct 14 2003, 05:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Oct 14 2003, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Menix+Oct 14 2003, 05:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Menix @ Oct 14 2003, 05:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only rational answer would be: "I want to base my life on an unjustified premise". But since I don't, I'm an atheist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The lack of faith is simply a belief in nothing, which is in itself taken on faith. You're taking for granted that just because you have never seen something, it does not exist. I on the other hand take it for granted that because something exists that is beyond my capabilities, it <b>must</b> exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Think before you post. Atheism means "without religion" as I have clearly stated before for people like you. I never stated that "god" does not exist.
A lack of belief does not require evidence and hence can not be based on faith. If you can't comprehend that then we have nothing further to discuss.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Oct 14 2003, 05:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Oct 14 2003, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Common misunderstanding about atheism. Atheism is not the "belief in nothing." Quite contrary. Atheists believe there is no supreme being controlling the universe, and that is as far as it goes. From there, they tend to believe in the big bang theory, evolution, and any number of additional theories about how we, and life in general, came to be. Just there is no supreme deity pulling all the strings. You might be confused in that there is no one thing that all atheists subscribe to. Thus you mistakenly think that all atheists believe in nothing. Albert Einstein was technically an atheist, but he believed that the laws of nature were what controlled life and determined how life came to be. He spent his life trying to theorize and then prove what he believed in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I didn't quite make myself clear. When I say nothing, I meant the "belief in nothing (insert the performance of miracles, omnipotence, omniscience, etc)" I know the stance of most atheists, as I was one for the first 16 years of my life.l I also understand the perspective of other religions regarding christianity and their own beliefs. However, my point still stands--atheists believe in nothing. Without the ability to prove a direct link between the formation of the universe and <i>every single random mutation or evolution</i> that lead to man, their theories are no more or no less credible than my faith, because that's all their line of conjecture is--faith in the fact that other things are true. I have several questions for an atheist.
1) If man is said to have been evolving for well over 2.5 million years (taking it from the emergence of <i>homo habilis</i> and his distinction from the australopithecines), how is it that so little has been adapted, applied or built until only the last few thousand years? Do you have that little faith in human potential and adaptation? How is it that in the last four to five centuries we have gone from an age of steel stabbing tools to advanced electronically guided weapons and machines yet in the first 2.4 <i>million</i> years we had advanced barely beyond the primitive hand axe, flint shaper, hammer stone and other crude impliments?
2) Why is it that archaeologists, anthropologists and paleontologists believe that in the last 200 to 300 thousand years that the brain capacity of <i>homo sapiens sapiens</i> has not changed a significant amount (roughly 1350 cc) despite a <i>steady</i> progression of brain size increasing from <i>h. habilis</i> (600-800cc) to <i>h. sapiens sapiens</i> for over two <i>million</i> years? What has caused this stall in evolutionary progress of the homo genus and namely the sapiens species that it has not grown in brain capacity or size in roughly 300 thousand years after two million years of steady progression?
3) Discounting australopithecines, are there any other links, hopefully clearer than the <i>A. africanus</i> to <i>h. habilis</i> link? Where's the "missing link"? Without scientific proof of the "missing link" why is my faith more misguided and unrealistic than yours?
All world religions teach you what you need to do to get to heaven. Except Christianity. Christianity teaches you what has already been done to get you into heaven. Namely, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, laying his life down for you. All you have to do to get into heaven is accept the fact you can't get there alone, and ask God for his forgiveness through Christ. No other religion teaches that God loves the world so much, or that He is willing to go to such great lengths to save it, or by offering as sensible solution to the problem of the gap between God's perfect nature and our sinful one. The only way to counter that last argument is to either say that God is not perfect, or that we are not sinful. The first counter is for another thread, the second counter, I don't think anyone in here can seriously, honestly, and truely make.
2) "Religion was given to the poor from the rich."
There is historical evidence of Jesus, found in secular sources from roman Census ( taken by Quirinius I believe), that tell thet he walked the earth, taught, and was crucified. His teachings were told of in the gospels, and those who believed his message wrote letters and his story. Those writings became the New Testament. They were the poor, the meek, and the feeble. They stood up and wrote about the Lord that called them from that life, and drew them to Himself. A few of them saw his resurection, and were killed because they did not choose to take back their accounts of it. They died for historical fact. Christianity was given to the rich, to the world, through the poor.
3) "All Christians were raised Christian."
Not true. I was raised to make my own decisions, and do what was right. I didn't hear anything serious about Christ until the 7th grade, when I saw that I was living for nothing, that all the ambition in the world wouldn't bring me satisfaction and fulfillment. It all passes away, and I realized I can't take anything with me. I was presented with the Gospel, I heard of Christ's work, I saw another life I could live open up before me. And I accepted it.
Let me tell you about my life now. I lead a bible study on Sunday nights, have 4-5 extremely close friendships I'll carry with me my whole life, scores of other people I can relate to because their struggles are the same as mine, a place to lay the burdens of everyday down and be free of it, and a Lord and shepard that leads me in the right direction. That's why I believe in God, not because it was drilled into my head, because I chose it, because I decided to allow Christ to work in my life, in my heart, and He did. Because the work he did on the Cross about 1970 years ago is as relevant today as it is back then. You ask for proof, I am the proof. The 60% of High-Schoolers that go to my church and weren't raised there, and the 70% of college students who found Christ and lived better lives because of it are the proof.
This is my testamony. This is why I believe in God, because He knocked on my heart, I answered, and he has done wonders for my life. Is the reason you reject Him that you cannot see Him, or is it that you simply can't imagine a better life for yourself than one you yourself would dream up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's the reason a lot of people turn to religion as far as I'm concerned though; they need a reason. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>You always hear from/about religious people sort of going through a low period before they 'find' religion. I just find the whole thing a big ego boost really I mean...</b></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was raised to make my own decisions, and do what was right. I didn't hear anything serious about Christ until the 7th grade, <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>when I saw that I was living for nothing, that all the ambition in the world wouldn't bring me satisfaction and fulfillment.</b></span> It all passes away, and I realized I can't take anything with me. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>I was presented with the Gospel, I heard of Christ's work</b></span>, I saw another life I could live open up before me. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>And I accepted it.</b></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, I started posting in the discussion forum again, so sue me. I'm addicted and AFAIK theres no 12 step program for this.
Comments
Jammer, that article is pretty neat. Although it is Dinesh D'Souza's interpetation of what perception is, it relates to a lot of things in life.
This is a common belief by many, even Stephen Hawking, that what we believe to be true can be totally different at another point in the universe. Until humans reach complete thought, which will probably never happen, we will never know the truth behind God. Well, unless someone dies and comes back to tell us, the answer is likely no.
Anyways, if someone came up to you and said God exists, and showed you the evidence supporting his belief, whether scientific or non-scientific, I think you would have a much harder time believing in the evidence than God. Same can be said for the people who say they need a vision from God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's called a security blanket. The general populace can't accept the fact that there is nothing more to their lives then to live and die,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that the purpose of religion and God, to offer hope and a desire that there is an afterlife and whatnot?
Generally, we should envy those who are stubborn in faith. At least they have something to look forward to when you and sometimes even I, die.
It's easy to attack my religion. As a Christian, I have been known to do it myself. I'm a firm believer in church reforms and certain liberal stances regarding church policies and the church's methods of spreading the Word. However, my faith is unassailable, and it is something that guides me both in my conscious thoughts, words and actions as well as the unconscious ways I respond the environment around me. The Bible is a set of instructions for how I feel I should live my life, mostly in the New Testament. Matthew 7, Collosians 3 and several other chapters come readily to mind. The Book of Job is great inspiration for me and renews my belief that life is full of trials for us all, tailored to test us most. I've been saved since I was 16, and now I'm just over 20. I came from a family where my grandmother crammed Southern Baptist dogma down my throat and my father let me make up my own mind. I started going to church of my own accord, and was the only one in my house going while I still went. I've had my falls, quite a few of them.
But at the same time, I always turned back to faith. Attacking my faith is pointless, goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing. I've seen plenty of things that have altered the credibility of the church in my eyes, but have yet to see anything that legitimately shook my faith.
I'd just like to make a slight dispute to your post.
The genetic code does not, and cannot program how a life form is built, nor where and how all the capillaries will form and chemical reactions that will take place.
What the genetic code DOES do, is lay the foundation of the underlying fractal pattern that creates them.
Actually it does, and organs know how to develop (and why) via intra/extracellular signals that are produced (and here's the da dum) by <b>genetic</b> elements that are turned on and off. Depending on what a certain set of genes called hox box genes do in fact encode where things are positioned for example. Mutations in hox box genes can shift legs to the eye sockets, create more legs, make 2 abdomens (and apparently they made a 3 headed fly too) and a huge variety of other bits and pieces.
As for the chemical reaction part, that is an utterly absurd statement. All chemical reactions are at their basic level controlled by DNA. Regulation of your DNA decides if a cell is a muscle (stirated or smooth), nervous or skin cell. Every reaction in the body is carefully controlled via feedback systems that are ultimately controlled on a DNA level (even if it is indirectly). Without proteins that MUST be produced from DNA no chemical reactions can ever occur, and this is itself regulated at a DNA level!
Quite frankly, DNA determines virtually everything but a few things.
Jammer: Thanks for posting that, I think anyone who wants to call themselves a bright is pretty daft to begin with!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr. Dennett added that "we brights don't believe in ghosts or elves or the Easter bunny or God." His implication was clear: Brights are the smart people who don't fall for silly superstitions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Ghosts are disputable but I can certainly agree that the easter bunny doesn't exist <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But there are those that say genes rule absolutely everything, which simply isnt true.
If that were, true, then I would be ignorant and wouldnt have gone past primary education if my father is anything to go by.
Murderers and rapists children would always recommit their fathers crimes without fail.
And if my genetics do control my thoughts, then were they pre ordained to make me think my thoughts?
Though I was mostly wrong in my statement, the genes do lay the foundation of the underlying fractal pattern.
In simpler terms? The genes say make these chemicals, to interact with those chemicals. These organs should be shaped like this, or like that, there should be oh so many arms, and oh so many legs.
The genes do not however, dictate exactly where capillaries and blood vessels will go with absolute precision, and that was the point I was belatedly tring to make...
I think.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do not believe. However, if something gave me reason to believe, and I did believe... who's to say I'm religious? I would not worship him, and follow his "rules". It's like telling me that this frog is on my table - 'no, there is no frog there'. then, tell me there is a cup on my table. -'oh, okay, yep. okay, that cup is there.' this does not mean that i care, or that i acknowledge that it is omnipotent, all powerful, the Big Man. i am simply accepting its existance.
however, i dont believe in 'god'. and i do not want to believe - religion is counter-productive.
Answer this: Why believe?
The only rational answer would be: "I want to base my life on an unjustified premise". But since I don't, I'm an atheist.
Not So 'Bright'
Atheists aren't as rational as they think.
BY DINESH D'SOUZA
Sunday, October 12, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT
"We have always had atheists among us," ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Kant's, but not the conclusion Dinesh reaches..
We're not arguing the possibility (I think) that god exists, but being rationel is to demand proof for something instead of blindly believe it.
That is my problem with religion. None of it is based on allowing an individual to choose for him/herself what to believe in. You are force-fed a belief system by your parents. If your parents were satanists, you'd be a satanist, too. If your parents were Muslim, bam... you're Muslim too. There are all kinds of stories and faiths... how can all of them be correct? The obvious answer is that none of them are correct. They are just stories designed to make you into a better person... in the Christian world that means someone who obeys the ten commandments. Those ten commandments were put forth to control the populous. They are there to ensure a civil society. Nothing more. Fear of Hell and reward in Heaven are the mechanisms (bribes) by which religion is able to control people. Every major religion has these exact same tenets. Punishment and reward. This works for training children how to behave, and it works for training dogs how to behave. We're all animals, and animals can be conditioned.
I was able to break free of the religious brainwashing I was given as a child by the time I got into High School. I was introduced to evolution in a 9th grade biology class. Evolution answered <b>so many</b> questions I had that I was convinced the story of Creation was completely bogus. I have never looked back. Hate to use the word epiphany, but it sure was an awakening. I think my mind was primed for that event much earlier in my life, however. I recall sitting in sunday school... probably only 6 or 7 years old... and I asked the teachers there "how do you know that God exists?" They responded that "it's faith." So even early on I was questioning the Christian brainwashing system and not just blindly accepting what I was told.
My goal is not to find something that will allow me to believe in a supreme deity. My goal is to convince faith-believers that there is a middle-ground between atheism and theism. It's called Humanism. Stop trying to convince me that there's a god. Never going to happen. Instead, understand what religion actually does for you as a person and try to realize that I for one do not require that same set of beliefs. I can behave properly in a society without the "fear of God." Release your desires to try and convert everyone to Christianity. Having a majority does not make your religion "right." Instead, help us work towards bettering humanity by preserving the Earth and ensuring our children will have a better life than we did. Some concepts in religion are counter-productive to preserving the Earth, and that really pisses me off.
People can choose whatever faith the want. Just because their parents attempt to train them in one does not prevent them from taking part in another.
proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that she/he/it exists
The simple-minded blindly follow it.
The great scientists reject it.
And for the rest of us, we don't know what to think of it.
The only question science hasn't been able to answer is how we and the universe came to be.
The simple-minded few say it is God's work, but there is no proof behind it. Some people will believe anything they are told. Somewhere in our sad history of human events, some guy invented religion, and every simple-minded person since has followed religion to explain things they can't explain.
The great scientists of the world create theories to try to explain how the universe came to be. They look at relationships and patterns, and the best they've come up with is the Big Bang theory which explains HOW the universe was created. Yet, we are still lacking the knowledge of WHY the universe was created.
And as for the rest of us, we still ponder why things are the way they are. We use logic like the great scientists, but can't help but wonder if religion is correct. However, it isn't easy to believe in religion. They are hypocritical enough as it is. With all the religions out there, the odds you picked the right religion is 1%. If "faith" is the concept all these religions stress, well all of them are saying "Trust us! Join our religion!"
I truly believe if you have put enough thought into religion, you will be in this category.
If you're an athiest, you have no problems. Likewise, if you are a hardcore spiritual person, you have no problems. It is those of us inbetween that have the hard time.
In having no purpose, for some there is freedom, for some there is no hope. I find freedom without purpose personally ^^
~pokes Jammer with a copy of boondock saints~ <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
See that's the problem. Were you raised a Christian? Are you still a Christian? Would you ever consider becoming Muslim? Jewish? Hindu? Buddhist? How many people actually switch to a different religion? Not denomination... complete religion. It's not like you're raised in an open environment, given all the choices of religion laid out in front of you for you to decide once you are of a certain age. It's not like your choice of college or choice of major. I was pushed through religion and brainwashed far before I was able to make a decision on my own. I didn't even know what other religions were out there until I reached High School. How can you possibly avoid the Christian onslaught when no other choices are even presented to you? Same goes for people in the Muslim worlds... children are not told of alternative religions unless they are referenced as something to be chastised and avoided. You think Christian households in America today are going to teach their children about the virtues of Islam as a possible alternative to Jesus Christ Superstar? <b>Not on your life.</b>
This kind of brainlock leads to extremists willing to blow themselves up in public places. This same mechanism allows cults to form and engulf others. People like to be herded and controlled. It is an inherent trait in nearly every person on this planet. Many other species exhibit the same tendencies. Getting into biology and evolution here, but animals that are prey tend to stick together to avoid being slaughtered by the predators. Only the weak ones will fall victim, and members of the pack watch out for each other. We come from a line of species that were prey at some point in their history. Tigers in India still hunt and kill humans to this day. This instinctual, primal fear of being prey makes women scream and hide when they see even little mice. Thus it makes sense that humans want (and need) organization. Whether governmental or religious. There are some people, however, without this fundamental need. What makes them different? What happened early on in their life, or how is their brain wired differently? Damn good questions.
The most vital period in a person's life are the ages between 0 and 5. Most of who you are comes from how you were raised during this period. From 5 years on, you are pretty much set in stone. Some 85% of the brain's permanent connections are made prior to the 6th birthday. You have free will, and you might change your mind about certain things, but your brain has established most if not all of its important pathways. All of this happens far before you are given the chance to make your own path. Can you even remember when you were 5 years old? Do you remember knowing about every religion and coming up with a choice about which one you'd follow? Of course not. Ridiculous to even suggest such a weird thing.
Raising children is a job all by itself, and how those children turn out is very much a reflection of what the parents did during those formative years. Religion takes up a large chunk of this formation, and it is not easily removed. In most cases, it simply cannot be removed. Just look at how fervent people are in regards to religion. They will attempt to convince others. Safety in numbers. They will defend their beliefs to the death, if need-be. And it's all just faith... no proof, no validity... pure faith. Willing to die for that faith. Pretty remarkable stuff. It is hard-wired into people's brains, and simply cannot be removed or altered. And it if it is altered, it's merely a more fitting version of what they already believe. Reading any number of posts on this board will convince you just how steadfast some people can be in regards to their faith. Look at the title of this thread. For me, I never truly believed what I was told. I was skeptical from an early age and merely went along with it because I was forced to. Introduction to evolution changed everything.
Now for free will. For the vast majority of people, they don't need to change their religion because the one they've been given is good enough. No one seeks to understand the truth because they've been given a panacea that fulfills their needs. Don't question the status quo because there is no need. So it is for the vast majority of people on this planet. You can't let people just make up their own minds at some point in their life and hope they pick the ethical one. That would lead to anarchy in modern human society, as most people just can't grasp the grim reality of our fleeting existence on this planet. Not even I would suggest such a thing, as it would lead to the downfall of humanity.
The governments of the world depend upon this religious brainwashing to maintain control. You think Christian America would ever elect an Islamic president? It's so weird to even think about such a thing that it's almost unmentionable. Just look at how Bush is inserting his faith all across his policies. Faith-based initiatives. Even used Jesus Christ in speeches. God bless America. So it is. Alas, you'll never have to worry about someone like me being voted into office <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think someone sat down and decided religion was something useful to invent. I think it came about as a natural evolutionary progression in a social species... namely homo sapiens. The exact same process is how human languages formed. No one sat down and invented the entire Chinese language and all its 60,000 symbols. It came about as a collection of words and writings that all kinds of people across the land were using to communicate with each other. Slowly but surely, as participants added their own words, a more standard language evolved. Our own language is constantly changing, too. We have geek, newbie, blog, et al. I believe religion follows the same line of social evolution. Probably an interesting topic all by itself. If you're interested in starting one, I'm sure you'd get some replies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you're an athiest, you have no problems. Likewise, if you are a hardcore spiritual person, you have no problems. It is those of us inbetween that have the hard time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come join Humanism <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> No worries about fiery hell or any of that stuff. No heaven, either. But you can drink as much beer as you want!!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think worms feel exactly the same way. Unfortunate for me, I can't accept not knowing. I've often thought about how nice it would be to just not care or not have to know how something works or what its purpose is. "Ignorance is bliss" sums it all up nicely. Prozac might help, I guess.
[Edit]
Ooh, that reminds me of a good movie... "Pi" Anyone see that? The ending to that movie is the relevant part (without spoiling anything.)
Nothing short of concrete scientific proof. The more I've learned about science, the less I needed God to explain things. I like to refer to a Stephen Hawking quote when discussing my Atheism and why I don't believe in God. It goes,
<i>"What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary."</i>
If it's possible to explain things that were previously God's domain through science, is believing in God still rational? If God isn't necessary to any part of the universe, is it rational to think that there's an omnipotent being controlling everything or that there is no omnipotent being to begin with? I don't expect to win over any converts with my arguments. I still don't know enough philosophy to really flesh them out yet.
<b>On the Bright movement:</b>
While I agree with the idea, not being called a "Bright", but achieving social and political influence for atheists, I don't see it working. Atheists are usually too individualistic and too few in numbers to organize any sort of national campaign that would have any noticable effect on politics or society at large. The best most can hope to do is not get yelled at regularly by the 95% of the population that does follow a religion.
I haven't read enough Kant to talk about that. I'll have to add <i>Critique of Pure Reason</i> to the ever growing list of books to get when I have the money to purchase them and the time to read them. I'm busy juggling Aquinas' <i>Summa Theologica</i> and a full college courseload, so it may be a while.
The lack of faith is simply a belief in nothing, which is in itself taken on faith. You're taking for granted that just because you have never seen something, it does not exist. I on the other hand take it for granted that because something exists that is beyond my capabilities, it <b>must</b> exist.
Actually with no 'point' in your existance comes a lack of expectations. If nothing is expected of you, there's no pressure to do things you wouldn't want to do. Personally I find people's need for a reason 'why' kinda simple minded. Curiousity is one thing but "OMG!!! I NEED A REASON OR I'LL CURL UP AND DIE OF DEPRESSION" which is a widespread phenomenon feels rather silly.
I'm quite happy to sit and debate all kinds of reasons 'why' but at the end of the day the simple idea that there is no reason whatsoever seems so elegantly rational. Does a tidal wave that wipes out a small village killing lots of people have a reason? It has an origin, but a reason?
If you don't believe in some big white floaty deity then why are you looking for a reason? a 'why'?
If it's for curiousity then go ahead and have fun. If it's to fill some egotistical hole in your psyche that demands you need a purpose because you're oh-so important in the cosmos then I'll pity you while I'm off having fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Common misunderstanding about atheism. Atheism is not the "belief in nothing." Quite contrary. Atheists believe there is no supreme being controlling the universe, and that is as far as it goes. From there, they tend to believe in the big bang theory, evolution, and any number of additional theories about how we, and life in general, came to be. Just there is no supreme deity pulling all the strings. You might be confused in that there is no one thing that all atheists subscribe to. Thus you mistakenly think that all atheists believe in nothing. Albert Einstein was technically an atheist, but he believed that the laws of nature were what controlled life and determined how life came to be. He spent his life trying to theorize and then prove what he believed in.
If it's for curiousity then go ahead and have fun. If it's to fill some egotistical hole in your psyche that demands you need a purpose because you're oh-so important in the cosmos then I'll pity you while I'm off having fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose I should have clarified. I don't seek a reason for why I'm on this planet. For that I know... the biological processes are very simple to understand. Mom and Dad... well you fill in the blanks. I don't think there is a reason for life, and I don't have a need to understand why we're here. There isn't a reason, like you said. But that doesn't satisfy my innate curiosity as to how we came to be and how the universe works. For some of us, finding that alone is more fun than anything else in the world. And it has nothing to do with trying to fill some egotistical hole in my psyche because I think I'm oh-so important in the cosmos. I know I'm just a collection of organic material, mostly water, and that at some point I will die and be recycled like a turret farm that is about to be eaten.
The workings of the brain that allows someone to enjoy himself are the same in all humans. It's a chemical process that triggers pleasure in the brain. The catalyst varies from person to person. For you, it might be collecting stamps. For me, it is solving problems. And so it is. I don't expect you to change, and you shouldn't expect me to, either. Pity those who think there's actually a life everlasting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's the reason a lot of people turn to religion as far as I'm concerned though; they need a reason. You always hear from/about religious people sort of going through a low period before they 'find' religion. I just find the whole thing a big ego boost really I mean...
1) Man was made in gods image - now if that isn't a big 'woohoo! we're great' then I don't know what is <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
2) The Angels got jealous of the attention God gave to Man - We're the favourites!!! Us!!! not you heaven people! We were important enough to start a war in the sky =P
3) God loves us - Some great big uber-thingy in the sky who made the whole universe has time to give you a hug <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know you don't follow this religion Evis, and though I wouldn't label myself a humanist my beliefs are pretty close by the sounds of it. I guess I'm just writing it out to get it clear in my own head. ick, I'm hi-jacking now amn't I? =s
~gives Evis a cookie to make up for being overly-mean~
I don't know about you all, but I'd rather think I'm near the end of an eons-long evolutionary chain of incredibly adaptive, industrious, and intelligent creatures than think I was just placed by some invisible force, merely to subsist, killing other creatures that were DESIGNED to be 'inferior' to me. I'd rather be picked by mother nature out of the billions (trillions?) of species that ever evolved, rather than get plopped here by the Hand of God just to be another drone...
While maybe this is one possibility others are sure to follow.
But one good thing about us Atheists we have nothing to fear after death. Well maybe some of us (Not me though). While the religious people sit there days on end praying that some God wont punish them while we just live our lives. I just accept things as they go on and not worry about something that might or might not be true.
The lack of faith is simply a belief in nothing, which is in itself taken on faith. You're taking for granted that just because you have never seen something, it does not exist. I on the other hand take it for granted that because something exists that is beyond my capabilities, it <b>must</b> exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think before you post. Atheism means "without religion" as I have clearly stated before for people like you. I never stated that "god" does not exist.
A lack of belief does not require evidence and hence can not be based on faith. If you can't comprehend that then we have nothing further to discuss.
Common misunderstanding about atheism. Atheism is not the "belief in nothing." Quite contrary. Atheists believe there is no supreme being controlling the universe, and that is as far as it goes. From there, they tend to believe in the big bang theory, evolution, and any number of additional theories about how we, and life in general, came to be. Just there is no supreme deity pulling all the strings. You might be confused in that there is no one thing that all atheists subscribe to. Thus you mistakenly think that all atheists believe in nothing. Albert Einstein was technically an atheist, but he believed that the laws of nature were what controlled life and determined how life came to be. He spent his life trying to theorize and then prove what he believed in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I didn't quite make myself clear. When I say nothing, I meant the "belief in nothing (insert the performance of miracles, omnipotence, omniscience, etc)" I know the stance of most atheists, as I was one for the first 16 years of my life.l I also understand the perspective of other religions regarding christianity and their own beliefs. However, my point still stands--atheists believe in nothing. Without the ability to prove a direct link between the formation of the universe and <i>every single random mutation or evolution</i> that lead to man, their theories are no more or no less credible than my faith, because that's all their line of conjecture is--faith in the fact that other things are true. I have several questions for an atheist.
1) If man is said to have been evolving for well over 2.5 million years (taking it from the emergence of <i>homo habilis</i> and his distinction from the australopithecines), how is it that so little has been adapted, applied or built until only the last few thousand years? Do you have that little faith in human potential and adaptation? How is it that in the last four to five centuries we have gone from an age of steel stabbing tools to advanced electronically guided weapons and machines yet in the first 2.4 <i>million</i> years we had advanced barely beyond the primitive hand axe, flint shaper, hammer stone and other crude impliments?
2) Why is it that archaeologists, anthropologists and paleontologists believe that in the last 200 to 300 thousand years that the brain capacity of <i>homo sapiens sapiens</i> has not changed a significant amount (roughly 1350 cc) despite a <i>steady</i> progression of brain size increasing from <i>h. habilis</i> (600-800cc) to <i>h. sapiens sapiens</i> for over two <i>million</i> years? What has caused this stall in evolutionary progress of the homo genus and namely the sapiens species that it has not grown in brain capacity or size in roughly 300 thousand years after two million years of steady progression?
3) Discounting australopithecines, are there any other links, hopefully clearer than the <i>A. africanus</i> to <i>h. habilis</i> link? Where's the "missing link"? Without scientific proof of the "missing link" why is my faith more misguided and unrealistic than yours?
1) As to the multiple religions:
All world religions teach you what you need to do to get to heaven. Except Christianity. Christianity teaches you what has already been done to get you into heaven. Namely, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, laying his life down for you. All you have to do to get into heaven is accept the fact you can't get there alone, and ask God for his forgiveness through Christ. No other religion teaches that God loves the world so much, or that He is willing to go to such great lengths to save it, or by offering as sensible solution to the problem of the gap between God's perfect nature and our sinful one. The only way to counter that last argument is to either say that God is not perfect, or that we are not sinful. The first counter is for another thread, the second counter, I don't think anyone in here can seriously, honestly, and truely make.
2) "Religion was given to the poor from the rich."
There is historical evidence of Jesus, found in secular sources from roman Census ( taken by Quirinius I believe), that tell thet he walked the earth, taught, and was crucified. His teachings were told of in the gospels, and those who believed his message wrote letters and his story. Those writings became the New Testament. They were the poor, the meek, and the feeble. They stood up and wrote about the Lord that called them from that life, and drew them to Himself. A few of them saw his resurection, and were killed because they did not choose to take back their accounts of it. They died for historical fact. Christianity was given to the rich, to the world, through the poor.
3) "All Christians were raised Christian."
Not true. I was raised to make my own decisions, and do what was right. I didn't hear anything serious about Christ until the 7th grade, when I saw that I was living for nothing, that all the ambition in the world wouldn't bring me satisfaction and fulfillment. It all passes away, and I realized I can't take anything with me. I was presented with the Gospel, I heard of Christ's work, I saw another life I could live open up before me. And I accepted it.
Let me tell you about my life now. I lead a bible study on Sunday nights, have 4-5 extremely close friendships I'll carry with me my whole life, scores of other people I can relate to because their struggles are the same as mine, a place to lay the burdens of everyday down and be free of it, and a Lord and shepard that leads me in the right direction. That's why I believe in God, not because it was drilled into my head, because I chose it, because I decided to allow Christ to work in my life, in my heart, and He did. Because the work he did on the Cross about 1970 years ago is as relevant today as it is back then. You ask for proof, I am the proof. The 60% of High-Schoolers that go to my church and weren't raised there, and the 70% of college students who found Christ and lived better lives because of it are the proof.
This is my testamony. This is why I believe in God, because He knocked on my heart, I answered, and he has done wonders for my life. Is the reason you reject Him that you cannot see Him, or is it that you simply can't imagine a better life for yourself than one you yourself would dream up?
That's the reason a lot of people turn to religion as far as I'm concerned though; they need a reason. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>You always hear from/about religious people sort of going through a low period before they 'find' religion. I just find the whole thing a big ego boost really I mean...</b></span>
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was raised to make my own decisions, and do what was right. I didn't hear anything serious about Christ until the 7th grade, <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>when I saw that I was living for nothing, that all the ambition in the world wouldn't bring me satisfaction and fulfillment.</b></span> It all passes away, and I realized I can't take anything with me. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>I was presented with the Gospel, I heard of Christ's work</b></span>, I saw another life I could live open up before me. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><b>And I accepted it.</b></span>
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Yeah, I started posting in the discussion forum again, so sue me. I'm addicted and AFAIK theres no 12 step program for this.