well if I claim the universe already existed then that means god can't have created it. With that logic Everything in the universe could have always been; it just breaks down then reforms again forever in a cyclic tale that starts and ends in the immeasurable depths of infinity o.O This means that god didn't create it either... and if that's the case then either god doesn't exist or even stretching to the fact he also existed forever it means he's taking credit for something that happened without him =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Oct 18 2003, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 18 2003, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God has always been. When the Jews asked him to explain who he was - he said "I AM". In other words, its me guys. He didnt say "Third God on the right created 4000BC, he just said "I AM", because a better explaination is lacking.
God created a universe in which everything comes from SOMETHING else. Thus it is impossible for us to understand how something could just have eternally pre-existed. So we take it on faith. God has always been, he was never created.
Another important point - God created time itself, and exists outside of it, so its really hard to try and specify WHEN he came to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This reminds me of when homer accidently proved there was no god doing his taxes. hehe
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 18 2003, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 18 2003, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know why there never will be absolute proof ? Simple. <b>Far too many people have a vested interest in Christianity</b>. It will take a long time to die out (if ever) because people keep perpetuating it from generation to generation. "You want the truth... you can't handle the truth !".
Now then, do you have an actual answer to my argument besides the "lots of really smart people disagree" approach ?
When was the last time - golden light shone forth and heavenly angels sang - when you read the Bible ? You said it yourself, it is a book. Written by Man. You believe Yahweh more than Baal ? Why ? Because of ancient text ? Lots of gods have wonderful texts that contain many great fantastic tales also. Oddly enough some of those are rather close to the ones in the Bible...hmmmm.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, there is absolute truth, and it is Him, His word and His Son. That's something I firmly believe, and is one of the strongest pillars of my faith. There are so many historical events catalogued by the Bible that have been verified by outside sources that they cannot be conveniently counted. Cataloging them all would be a life's work--or as it were, has been many men's lives' works.
As far as the adaptation of a hymn or psalm, I'd like to point out that psalms are worship songs, and were intended as such when they were written. The reason they are included in the Bible is the same reason many Christian churches have hymnals--choral praise is another major form of worship for many. Contemporary songs have borrowed songs from different genres--pop songs by N'Sync showing up on country radio stations redone by country artists, etc. They began as songs and have been included to demonstrate the more remarkable or amazing songs that had been written/adapted to praise the Lord.
As far as my faith, I'll tell you quite honestly why I believe in Jesus Christ. When I was introduced to Christianity, I was young, bored and inattentive. I learned Bible stories more as a form of history than anything else. When I was 16, I was reintroduced to Christianity, and went to church as the only member of my household who did. I learned more about the Bible and Christianity out of curiosity. At some point I opened my mind to what I was being taught, stopped ignoring it and shrugging it off. I proceeded to read the Bible from cover to cover, and after reading certain scriptures--namely, Genesis 35-50, the four gospels, Acts, Romans and others--I felt quite moved. Valuable lessons weren't the only thing I got from them. I could almost feel a physical shift in my view of the world. The faith these men had in the Lord spoke quite convincingly to me. I could feel my mind opening even further, and my heart no longer felt hardened. Songs of praise went from simple singing to actual worship. Coming to know the Lord's Word was only the beginning. Every single day since that, the Lord has been part of my life--whether I wanted Him to be or not. His presence has been more real than you could honestly imagine. I believe because quite honestly, after my life's experiences and my studies, there aren't any options left.
As far as "fantastic tales" close to those in the Bible, they're generally called "cultural universalities"--something that is found in every culture worldwide (common example-- a story regarding creation). As was pointed out earlier, by scientific sources, you would find the agricultural revolution supposedly occuring spontaneously in roughly a dozen locations worldwide. If humanity as a whole developed certain things at the same time in very different locations, you could quite honestly make the conjecutre that they all did have relatively similar experiences in many areas. Whereas with my faith, a God who created Man much more credibly and realistically explains how Man developed similar techniques, similar experiences and similar stories all within a geologically narrow time period in many different places worldwide.
I grew up in a Christian environment and frankly wrestled with many issues. Something just did not "feel right". The teachings of Jesus can be viewed in quite a sinister light IMO with things like "have faith like a child". To me that means don't think, just obey. Why should I not think ? That doesn't sit well with me.
With my recent research into the old testament I am convinced that Yahweh was nothing more than any other deity mentioned at the time.
I don't and will never understand why anything Baal-ish should be allowed in the bible. It's one thing to adapt a non-religious song, but to adapt a song from another religion ? That seems to break the sacredness of the Bible to my mind.
At any rate, this discussion has been interesting but I fear that I probably don't have much more to contribute really. Clearly I think we've all pretty much 'dug-in' our respective positions and I don't see either one shifting anytime soon.
I was peddling on the faithful bike to work when a holy light shone around me, I was knocked off my bike and onto my knees. A great voice spoke in the Heavens - "NUBLET" it rumbled.
"Y-y-yes" I replied, this was obviously a being who knew me to the very core.
"Know that I AM, the Lord your God, before whom all tremble and kneel - get thyself back unto the discussion forums, and say this, that I, Yahweh, who exists from everlasting to everlast, have sent you all a message: And the message is this.
All scientists, be they creationist or otherwise, agree that the Universe had a beginning, a starting point. Both the Big Bang and Creation theorys believe this. Thus, as we understand it, the universe started at a point, and when something starts, it has to be created. Evolutionists can give you a rough date based on the rate the universe is expanding as to WHEN, creationists think it was about 6000 years ago, but no one is claiming the Universe has always existed. The universe is ruled by entropy, going from order to disorder. You cannot be in this state forever, eventually you will move completely to disorder. Which leads us all to the conclusion that the Universe had a beginning point.
Sorry Gem, but my arguement cannot be turned around to support a universe theory. It is entirely possible that God has always existed, but the same cannot be said of the universe.
And all this from a direct revelation from the Supreme being - either that or it hit me when I was hydrobathing a dog that bit me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Which version you choose to believe is up to you.
EDIT Larry, why I believe mine more - I base it on the people around me given that I am not a Christian. But most Christians will tell you that they find it hilarious that people tell them their God does not exist. They feel they have a deep and personal relationship with God, and when people tell them he's not there they find it strange. "But I was talking to him 5 min ago".
A good parallel is a man and his wife. He has been living with this woman for 50 years, he knows her completely and utterly. Then one day, when he is at work, the police come up to him and say, "Sir, your wife just tied up thirty people in a room and decapitated them with a kitchen knife."
The man laughs. The police say "No Sir, its true, we even have witnesses" And still the man says "I'm sorry but you have got the wrong person, my wife would never do that". So the police say, "But we have conclusive photographic and taped proof that she did." And still the man wont believe it. "You havent even looked at our evidence yet, and still you refuse to admit the possiblity she did it?" And the man replies "I dont need to look, I know my wife, and she would never do somthing like this."He has no hard evidence to base his assumption on, but he knows his wife, he has experienced her for all those years, and on faith he will never believe it.
The Christians are so sure that their God exists and is the right one because they experience him on a day to day basis.
Actually... In tarot card readings when the death card comes up most people will gasp or laugh or be genuinely worried. The problem is, in tarot death merely means change for when something dies, something new takes it's place.
The universe could be argued to have a beginning, but what if the beginning is the end? Like I said "Everything in the universe could have always been; it just breaks down then reforms again forever in a cyclic tale that starts and ends in the immeasurable depths of infinity" ^~ I'm happy enough to apply the idea of eternal universes even if the scientists aren't =3
I have heard the "Collapsing, then relapsing" theory, and also some pretty solid criticism. Unfortunately I cant remember that criticism specifically, so I cant really say much <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason I think it's fine to apply infinite universes is that scientists work off evidence before they usually agree on something. It seems they found enough evidence to get the big bang theory to float for themselves but generally I'd think it quite hard to find evidence of the entire universe or even reality itself cycling. Imagine some poor characters stuck in a world like a HL Deathmatch, but their memory gets reset along with the levels each time the map changes. What proof is there that there was a previous map within the Deathmatch level? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The criticism wasnt "What a silly idea collapsing relapsing pffft" - it was more along the lines of why it wasnt plausible. Of course no one can actually prove that it does collapse and then expand again, seeing as everyone dies in the process, but it has had some pretty serious criticism, and not many people chose to support it, at least in the scientific community - it gives you all the credibility of someone saying "Hey, maybe evolution is BS." EVERYONE screams n00b.
fair enough, but in the end the only reason I bring it up is to show why I find the idea of god eternal being so questionable <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
as for credibility, normal rules don't apply to me because I'm special ^~
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 19 2003, 01:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 19 2003, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I grew up in a Christian environment and frankly wrestled with many issues. Something just did not "feel right". The teachings of Jesus can be viewed in quite a sinister light IMO with things like "have faith like a child". To me that means don't think, just obey. Why should I not think ? That doesn't sit well with me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think. i obey. I have thought many times about why i believe what i believe. My faith started off as that of a child, wait, i was a child... But i have since then began to think for myself, and the more i though about it, the more it all makes sense to me. Yes, sometimes i have my doubts, i am only human, maybe i am being deluded by a 2000 year prank, or maybe i have found the meaning of life. I would say it is a chance i am willing to take, but that would devalue it. Having experienced it, i doubt i could live without it, knowing what a difference it makes to people's lives, it has either got to be a very elaborate prank or some serious "shizzle"
To all those postulating the beggining and ending of the universe: If Hawking were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave. As it is, Lou Gerrig's disease prevents him from doing much spinning at all, but I bet he'd have a few things to say. Anyway my point is that unless there is a physisist version of Aegeri floating around with a special knowledge of Grand Unified Theories and the origins of the universe then there is no one here really qualified enough to make arguments either way. I'm not saying its something we should avoid entirely, but maybe we should try not to get too in depth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think. i obey. I have thought many times about why i believe what i believe. My faith started off as that of a child, wait, i was a child... But i have since then began to think for myself, and the more i though about it, the more it all makes sense to me. Yes, sometimes i have my doubts, i am only human, maybe i am being deluded by a 2000 year prank, or maybe i have found the meaning of life. I would say it is a chance i am willing to take, but that would devalue it. Having experienced it, i doubt i could live without it, knowing what a difference it makes to people's lives, it has either got to be a very elaborate prank or some serious "shizzle"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure where he got that "Have faith like a child" phrase, the closest reference I could find with a 2 minute search was
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, <b>anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.</b>" --Luke 18:16-17, NIV<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would indicate that one is not supposed to think about it, just have faith blindly. Of course, that might depend on how you interprit it.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 19 2003, 07:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 19 2003, 07:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, <b>anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.</b>" --Luke 18:16-17, NIV<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would indicate that one is not supposed to think about it, just have faith blindly. Of course, that might depend on how you interprit it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> notice it says recieve. Accepting is only the first part. When someon give you a really nice present, you dont just say "wow, thats wonderful, thankyou" and then put it in a cupboard for the rest of your life. You want to use it, play with it, find out how it works.
Jesus is saying accept my gift as if you were a child. dont look at it, try to poke holes in it or find flaws, because then you will never experienc it. Its like at a swimming pool. You see lots of people having fun, and you want to join them. Instead of edging slowly down the ladder into the shallow end, jump off the diving board into the deep end.
Once you have accepted the gift, then you can think about it. examine it closely. If then you find you do not like it (which i doubt), at least you tried,m you had the experience. you didnt sit on the sidelines, you played the game.
Jesus is saying that all these scholars and philosophers are going about it all wrong. they are the men in white coats with thermometers and all sorts of measuring devices trying to get knowledge about the pool, when the only way to find to is to jump in. You may call it blind faith, but we have all got to take risks sometimes in our lives, if you dont, you are not living.
Any scientist, religious follower or other individual should lay down any claim of authority on the subject of what happened before the Universe existed or how it came into being or discussing if it even has a begining in order not too make a fool of him/herself and his/her profession. Even if you are convinced of the origins of the Universe it is very easy to find many others who are just as convinced as you but contradict you, it is therefor not nice to claim that religion X has any inherent authority on the subject since there is no possible way to pick one religion/sect/belief system over any other in terms of credibillity in an objective manner, and science certainly doesn't claim any authority on the subject(yet, it is not known if this is outside the realm of scientific inquiry, but right now it is not within reach).
This is the simplest and most fundamental reason why I find the existence of some god in one form or another a rediculous thought: What seems simpler? A very complex creature that somehow comes into existence out of nothing, or that for some inexplicable reason has allways existed and possibly is all there ever was before the Universe and which is only needed to explain the beginnings of the Universe(debatable, but if god exists I can't find anything to point at and say that this is it's 'magic touch' and can't be explained without intervention from said being.). Or that the Universe, something which seems(at least to some, including me) to follow simple rules and seems to need no 'magic touch´ for either rough explanation of it's evolution since it's beginning or for prediction of the outcome of events(even if said prediction is just statistical due to our limitations of gathering information and processing it or from chaotic behaviour(systems where small errors grow to overthrow any predictions made about it given enough time, a system where such conditions occur is wheater and planetary motion of more than 2 bodies, even if somehow completely isolated from the rest of the Universe. The existance of such 'sensitivity to initial conditions' or chaotic behaviour in a system is predictable and explainable) or from the impact of quantum mechanics which limits us to statistical predictions of some phenomena). There would seem to be no simplification made in explaining the existance of the Universe in assuming there is some god, I see it as making things all that much harder for yourself since now you need to explain the existence of god, just one more unproven speculation to explain.
(And why stop there, why not recursively invent more gods to explain the existance of the first one. You could say that if you have an infinite chain of gods all creating each other then there is no first one to explain and the question would lack meaning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Sorry, I just felt the need for some sillyness in this long a post)
I need just as much justification for there being a god as religious people need justification for there being a Universe without the nessecity of a god, the alternative is just as unthinkable to me as it is for them. Additionally most religious believers are of a specific conviction, they believe all sorts of things about god and the Universe that are rather specific, for me, this puts the burden of proof firmly in their responsibillity since they are making these extraordinary claims.
If god is just needed at a bit in the begining of the Universe and doesn't directly affect me it as well as leaves me clueless as to what this potential deity intends with the Universe and in more of a particular concern to me, myself, then why would I need to assume the existance of such an entity or care for it's eventuall intentions(which I cannot know)? For all I care there could be elves behind the scenes making everything work as long as the world appears to behave in a nice and predictable manner(by means of science) and does not seem to 'need' any special consideration for elves in the description of it.
You would almost certainly have to give me some kind of brain transplant to get 'me' to believe in god, or you can allways hold me at gun point and I will say I believe in god if that makes you not shoot me(I won't really though) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
((btw recursive use of(I like cheese don't you?( <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )) parenthesis is really annoying but it is a bad habbit of mine)) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->notice it says recieve. Accepting is only the first part. When someon give you a really nice present, you dont just say "wow, thats wonderful, thankyou" and then put it in a cupboard for the rest of your life. You want to use it, play with it, find out how it works.
Jesus is saying accept my gift as if you were a child. dont look at it, try to poke holes in it or find flaws, because then you will never experienc it. Its like at a swimming pool. You see lots of people having fun, and you want to join them. Instead of edging slowly down the ladder into the shallow end, jump off the diving board into the deep end.
Once you have accepted the gift, then you can think about it. examine it closely. If then you find you do not like it (which i doubt), at least you tried,m you had the experience. you didnt sit on the sidelines, you played the game.
Jesus is saying that all these scholars and philosophers are going about it all wrong. they are the men in white coats with thermometers and all sorts of measuring devices trying to get knowledge about the pool, when the only way to find to is to jump in. You may call it blind faith, but we have all got to take risks sometimes in our lives, if you dont, you are not living. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
boggle, why would I accept that particular faith? Why not any of the literally thousands of other ones or invent one of my own?
How am I not living when I don't embrace a particular set of wild assumptions compiled in one hard to read(or at least interpret) book? Christianity is not special, it is not the only religion and it cannot be objectively known to be better than any other religion/belief system.
It seems most religions contain lots of assumptions which are horribly difficult to prove and when you say 'burden of proof is on you' the answer is almost invariably that you must have blind faith in it. This seems to be exactly what you are telling me here.
Assume I have cobbled togheter some religion, lets say, a religion where any quantum mechanical outcome(which are entirely random but follow statistical laws exceptionally well)that can happen happens in every particular occasion giving rise to an infinite set of Universes croping of from each other and that there is no need to explain how it all started because the Universe has allways existed in the first place making the question of it's origins meaningless. Then according to your first analogy with the present this is a nice gift I'm giving to you that you will want to 'play with' when I am telling my weird set of assumptions? Really? How do you find time to 'play' with all those weird sets of assumptions you come across everyday?
In my opinion having blind faith is giving up time you could better have spent really living(as in playing NS, programming, watching television, arranging pyrotechnical displays or playing chess or whatever kind of activity that you enjoy).
If I enterpret risk correctly then I can have fun(which I suppose you mean by 'live') without taking any risks. Preferably I would take no risks at all while maximizing my fun since risks implies chance of some kind of loss. Some risks are unavoidable but I don't on the whole consider them fun.
If I go skydiving it is not the risk of instant death that makes it fun, it is the act of skydiving(don't mean to imply that I do this, just an example). If I could skydive without any risk I would find it more enjoyable than if I would skydive at the risk of death.
Risk is never the fun part of anything for me, challenge is fun however. NS is a good example here, I risk nothing if I lose, I can just play again(unlike skydiving <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, once your a big pavement pizza you can no longer extract pleasure from anything, skydiving or otherwise), and killing aliens/marines is not in itself a fun activity, it is the challenge of doing so that is the fun part. Risk does not imply challenge as far as I know, take russian roulette, nothing much that is more risky, but it's not really challenging to do. The risk is so large in russian roullete that few are willing to take it, it is not fun in any way.
The thing about being athiest is that, for me anyway, i dont really need fairy tells from centuries ago to fulfill my life. It was just a way of explaining things for them. Nowdays with all the new technology and such there is no reason for religion to exist anymore. That is why people are becoming athiest/agnostic. It was great in its time but now its time to be a little more practicle. We have electicity now and advanced mathamatics, religion is only still popular because parents and family/friends say its the truth, and used to be a way of life. Like i just said now that we can start explaining the reasons of why we exist (big bang) and physics we don't need the consuption of alcholo or hordes of armys anymore (unlike the middle east). Progreesion is the way of life. After a while longer, relgion will be something studied in history class and kids have to write essays on. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To all those who still believe well its your choice to be stuck in the past not mine. So have fun!! (Or an excuse to kill people)
<!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Oct 19 2003, 08:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Oct 19 2003, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->notice it says recieve. Accepting is only the first part. When someon give you a really nice present, you dont just say "wow, thats wonderful, thankyou" and then put it in a cupboard for the rest of your life. You want to use it, play with it, find out how it works.
Jesus is saying accept my gift as if you were a child. dont look at it, try to poke holes in it or find flaws, because then you will never experienc it. Its like at a swimming pool. You see lots of people having fun, and you want to join them. Instead of edging slowly down the ladder into the shallow end, jump off the diving board into the deep end.
Once you have accepted the gift, then you can think about it. examine it closely. If then you find you do not like it (which i doubt), at least you tried,m you had the experience. you didnt sit on the sidelines, you played the game.
Jesus is saying that all these scholars and philosophers are going about it all wrong. they are the men in white coats with thermometers and all sorts of measuring devices trying to get knowledge about the pool, when the only way to find to is to jump in. You may call it blind faith, but we have all got to take risks sometimes in our lives, if you dont, you are not living. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
boggle, why would I accept that particular faith? Why not any of the literally thousands of other ones or invent one of my own?
How am I not living when I don't embrace a particular set of wild assumptions compiled in one hard to read(or at least interpret) book? Christianity is not special, it is not the only religion and it cannot be objectively known to be better than any other religion/belief system.
It seems most religions contain lots of assumptions which are horribly difficult to prove and when you say 'burden of proof is on you' the answer is almost invariably that you must have blind faith in it. This seems to be exactly what you are telling me here.
Assume I have cobbled togheter some religion, lets say, a religion where any quantum mechanical outcome(which are entirely random but follow statistical laws exceptionally well)that can happen happens in every particular occasion giving rise to an infinite set of Universes croping of from each other and that there is no need to explain how it all started because the Universe has allways existed in the first place making the question of it's origins meaningless. Then according to your first analogy with the present this is a nice gift I'm giving to you that you will want to 'play with' when I am telling my weird set of assumptions? Really? How do you find time to 'play' with all those weird sets of assumptions you come across everyday?
In my opinion having blind faith is giving up time you could better have spent really living(as in playing NS, programming, watching television, arranging pyrotechnical displays or playing chess or whatever kind of activity that you enjoy).
If I enterpret risk correctly then I can have fun(which I suppose you mean by 'live') without taking any risks. Preferably I would take no risks at all while maximizing my fun since risks implies chance of some kind of loss. Some risks are unavoidable but I don't on the whole consider them fun.
If I go skydiving it is not the risk of instant death that makes it fun, it is the act of skydiving(don't mean to imply that I do this, just an example). If I could skydive without any risk I would find it more enjoyable than if I would skydive at the risk of death.
Risk is never the fun part of anything for me, challenge is fun however. NS is a good example here, I risk nothing if I lose, I can just play again(unlike skydiving <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, once your a big pavement pizza you can no longer extract pleasure from anything, skydiving or otherwise), and killing aliens/marines is not in itself a fun activity, it is the challenge of doing so that is the fun part. Risk does not imply challenge as far as I know, take russian roulette, nothing much that is more risky, but it's not really challenging to do. The risk is so large in russian roullete that few are willing to take it, it is not fun in any way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Soylent - try it. You have absolutely nothing to lose. Great start point - pray. Deity, if you even exist, I'm going to try and find you. And I'm going to start with the Christian religion (heck start wherever you want, I just suggest the Christian religion first because I believe it will save you a whole stack of time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). So if you exist, help me to find you. Then open your mind and go searching for answers. If he really exists, then you'll find him. If he doesnt, then you have lost nothing but time, something you cant keep anyway.
considering I didn't find him and tried christianity first does that mean he doesn't exist? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Jesus said that whoever seeks shall find, so if you didnt find, you weren't looking
<!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+,--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ ,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Additionally most religious believers are of a specific conviction, they believe all sorts of things about god and the Universe that are rather specific, for me, this puts the burden of proof firmly in their responsibillity since they are making these extraordinary claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah, the classi "burden of proof" You do realise that when you say you are an athiest, you claim to be omniscient and omnipresent. If you are not, you will have to accept that there are facts you do not know, places you have not been, times you havent lived in. If you admit to that (which you should, because it is true) you admit to the possibility that one of the facts you do not know is that God exists, one of the places you have not been is where he is, one of the times you haven't lived in is when he revealed himself.
The burden of proof mate, is just as much on my shoulders as it is on yours, and no amount of twisting is going to shake it off. (see sig)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it just means you weren't looking.
Jesus said that whoever seeks shall find, so if you didnt find, you weren't looking <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh?, If god doesn't reveal himself or doesn't affect me in any way why should I care about 'it's' possiblel(but in my opinion highly unlikely) existance? It may not even wan't to be found, and I find the idea of 'it' caring about my existance even more proposterous. I do not care about ants, once when a few where invading my room I sprayed isopropanol on them until they died without a second thought. Why would god care about the unsignificant little human infestation on a tiny little planet somewhere in the Universe? That's just a rediculous assumption.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ah, the classi "burden of proof" You do realise that when you say you are an athiest, you claim to be omniscient and omnipresent. If you are not, you will have to accept that there are facts you do not know, places you have not been, times you havent lived in. If you admit to that (which you should, because it is true) you admit to the possibility that one of the facts you do not know is that God exists, one of the places you have not been is where he is, one of the times you haven't lived in is when he revealed himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Au contraire, saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity and that you are imposing all sorts of constraints on the nature of the Universe, it is saying you do not know if there is a god and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith. You state your 'knowledge' of god and some fundamental properties of the Universe, I need not prove myself as I have claimed nothing, however you have claimed something, you prove it.
Secondly, if god doesn't show 'itself', affect me in any way or reaveal 'it's' intensions or seem nessecary for explaining anything but possibly the first nanoseconds of the Universe why should I care if 'it' is behind the scenes making the world work in a comprehensible and 'physical' manner? How do you propose I explain the existance of a god appearing in the first place? I consider a god to be a possibillity, rediculously unlikely however, since a god does not explain anything. Using god as an explanation is just abstracting away the problem by inventing another even more problematic thing to explain in order to get rid of the first problem, I do not see any nessecity for making things harder to explain. Since I consider the existance of any god(and there is an infinte number of possible ones) an extremely unlikely possibility I equate that with stating that I do not believe in god, I am not stating my undying belief in a Universe without a god, this is an assumption on your part that I wish you would stop making.
I have seen it, and I refuted that claim in another thread(with no response). I don't care to look for that thread again so here is roughly what I said as I can remember.
Saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity, it is saying you _do not know_ if there is a god and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith. Therefor I am saying I do not know, where as you are saying you do, which do you think requires faith and which doesn't? You are the one making extraordinary claims so obviously the burden of proof IS on you not me since I'm not making any claims at all.
If I claim there is a teapot made of osmium in orbit around jupiter I am the one making highly unlikely and unjustified claims. Unless I can offer some shred of evidence you can wisely choose to refute my claims as exceedingly unlikely(without any need for faith) and up for me to prove or you can choose to believe me and have blind faith in my osmium teapot.
Faith is by definition irrational belief in some statement, when proof is offered no faith(irrational belief) is required.
As I am stating my ignorance I need not prove myself and no irrational convictions in a set of proposterous statements is required.
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 20 2003, 05:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 20 2003, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> considering I didn't find him and tried christianity first does that mean he doesn't exist? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The great thing about statements like mine gemin - is that I cant lose. If you didnt find him, then you're obviously not looking hard enough/have closed your mind to him. If you do find him, great stuff.
So you see - its a win/win for me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and soylent - being an athiest IS saying that God does not exist. What you are describing is the slightly more gutless version - agnosticism, or the idea that we cannot know whether God exists. Funnily enough, every agnostic I have ever met has chosen to live like he doesnt - I've never met one that decided he cant no whether God exists but hes going to bet on the safe side <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Soylent - try it. You have absolutely nothing to lose. Great start point - pray. Deity, if you even exist, I'm going to try and find you. And I'm going to start with the Christian religion (heck start wherever you want, I just suggest the Christian religion first because I believe it will save you a whole stack of time ). So if you exist, help me to find you. Then open your mind and go searching for answers. If he really exists, then you'll find him. If he doesnt, then you have lost nothing but time, something you cant keep anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine, I have lost nothing but time? I do not think there is anything else worse to lose than my precious little time I have before it is party time for all the little worms. Why on Earth would I wish to while away my precious time I can spend on having fun when I judge the existance of god an all to unlikely event and when I judge the likelyhood of any eventual god of caring about insignificant little humans to be laughable?
I have lost enough time with religious education in the public school system(actually not that much, but still too much) learning about various religions from a not allways to factual manner(burning incence in class anyone?), well not completely lost really, it was quite fun arguing with the teacher instead of going to lunch <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->(free school lunch == worst smeg ever), it is fun how he allways fell back on 'you have to have faith' type arguments from whatever statements he had made to the contrary, but he was quite informative of any religion not just christianity. It was also fun getting the best possible grades in a class I on the whole didn't much enjoy and still bash organised religion at every possible oppertunity a question was asked, even on the exam <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Oh and in like 3rd grade we had this weird teacher who thought it was reasonable to read crap out of the bible to us for like half an hour on fridays or something. But everyone was to busy burning strands of hair in stearine candles or playing with the hot wax to listen(you know how bad it smells if you burn a bunch of hair? smelled like hell in there <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). This is the same teacher who wanted everyone to work at the same pace and not 'leave anyone behind'. So she wanted me and a bunch of others to learn math slower(!), going to the principal got me and some others out of both listening to bible stories and of being 'held back' from learing, apparently reading directly out of the bible is not something you can force anyone to listen to. At that time I didn't even know these stories where supposed to be 'real', I thought is was just some really weird collection of fairy tales because she just assumed we knew. That teacher was eventually fired, and I have never had to cope which such an incompetent teacher again.
My parents are really neutral and wouldn't have cared if I was an atheist or budhist or whatever(well, satanist I think they would have cared... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->, hopefully), they didn't force me to believe anything and not to any ones suprise(I hope) I don't have any faith(~irrational belief in a set of unlikely assumptions).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->considering I didn't find him and tried christianity first does that mean he doesn't exist?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either that or 'it' just doesn't care, you can now safely ignore 'it' without any bad repercussions <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Ah, so you subscribe to the "Nothing after death" idea. I fail to see time as important here on earth because I know something better is coming. However, you seem to have taken the approach of "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die" attitude. And believe me, its even worse than you think. Most people really cant grasp the concept, the pure completeness, of NOTHING. When you die, you dont get to look back on your life. You dont get to watch on, there is no spectate mode. If we all came from nothing and are going to nothing, then it really doesnt matter a toss what we do now. You cease to BE - I have thought on this for hours and it always horrifies me when I wonder if maybe the humanists have it right.
So sure, live it up now. Or dont, or kill your neighbour. Not that any of it really matters.
I dont find time important because I cant keep it. I can use it, but there is no point to using it if in the end I just become zeroed, x-ed, nothing. So no, your time on earth isnt important - it will be gone before you know it. And at the end of it all - you are either right, and you become nothing, in which case it wont really matter what the hell you did with your life, you wont even exist so you couldnt tell if you partied hard or spent the whole time in church, or the theists are right, and there is something after, something better.
If time is all you have to lose, and eternal life is all you have to gain - you seem to be on a good wicket.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose". You cant keep your time, why not sacrifice a little over a possibility?
lol, sorry marine but your statement isn't win because you said "If he really exists, then you'll find him." By that reasoning I didn't find him so he doesn't exist; saying I didn't look hard enough is just an escape clause. It's like saying you can make people's heads explode if you concentrate hard enough then telling them they didn't try hard enough when they fail <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and boggle, you might want to alter your sig; Saying you don't believe in god is a statement showing an absence of faith, saying there is no god would probably work for your lil statement though ^^
Just a question but what's so great about 'heaven' anyways? =P
<b>~sigh~ edit:</b> ok, boggle... The more I think about it the more I think I should try and point out the <u>real</u> problem with your sig =/
Imagine you were part of a large Forum that was dedicated to FPS/RTS games; the most popular games on this board of course being NS and Savage with the community somewhat split in opinions but coexisting happily enough apart from the few 'friendly' skirmishes in a section of the board reserved for these kinds of debates. Someone has a sig with some witty remark basically saying NS is good and Savage players are somewhat misguided. Half the board who weren't really into NS aren't gonna have a high opinion of the guy; having people's opinions/beliefs waved in your face at the bottom of every single post they make doesn't come off as particularly friendly, open-minded nor respectful of people's differences. Of the remaining Half, some might think it's a clever little ditty and smile but it won't really up their opinion of you; after all it's just a sig. The rest after they're filtered out falls into 2 final camps; those who don't care and ignore it anyway and those who also like NS but think people who flaunt what they think is right irrespective of others is what gives NS players a bad reputation amongst Savage players and generally more open-minded individuals.
I hope my point's clear enough... everyone's welcome to their own take on the world they live in but when an athiest puts anti-god remarks in their sig/avatar or a religious person puts anti-athiesm remarks in their sig, nothing positive results from it =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Oct 20 2003, 01:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Oct 20 2003, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it just means you weren't looking.
Jesus said that whoever seeks shall find, so if you didnt find, you weren't looking <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh?, If god doesn't reveal himself or doesn't affect me in any way why should I care about 'it's' possiblel(but in my opinion highly unlikely) existance? It may not even wan't to be found, and I find the idea of 'it' caring about my existance even more proposterous. I do not care about ants, once when a few where invading my room I sprayed isopropanol on them until they died without a second thought. Why would god care about the unsignificant little human infestation on a tiny little planet somewhere in the Universe? That's just a rediculous assumption. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He is holding out his hand, he has told youhe is holding out his had, all you have to do is take it. how much easier could he make it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ah, the classi "burden of proof" You do realise that when you say you are an athiest, you claim to be omniscient and omnipresent. If you are not, you will have to accept that there are facts you do not know, places you have not been, times you havent lived in. If you admit to that (which you should, because it is true) you admit to the possibility that one of the facts you do not know is that God exists, one of the places you have not been is where he is, one of the times you haven't lived in is when he revealed himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Au contraire, saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity and that you are imposing all sorts of constraints on the nature of the Universe, it is saying you do not know if there is a god and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, thats being an agnostic, and it still requres faith, because, you decided to not make a decision, and even though you do not know, you still live your life as if there wasnt one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You state your 'knowledge' of god and some fundamental properties of the Universe, I need not prove myself as I have claimed nothing, however you have claimed something, you prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have claimed if you are an agnostic that you dont know if god exists. It is still a claim that needs to be backed up with evidence
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, if god doesn't show 'itself',... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
right, well there goes the rest of your agument. God has shown himself in the form of Jesus, and to a lesser extent in all the good things that happen in the world, and all the beauty. But i will carry on regardless, simply because i love a good discussion
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...affect me in any way or reaveal 'it's' intensions or seem nessecary for explaining anything but possibly the first nanoseconds of the Universe why should I care if 'it' is behind the scenes making the world work in a comprehensible and 'physical' manner? How do you propose I explain the existance of a god appearing in the first place? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God didnt appear in the first place, he has always been. he is eternal, outside of time. Dont try to understand it, you cant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I consider a god to be a possibillity, rediculously unlikely however, since a god does not explain anything. Using god as an explanation is just abstracting away the problem by inventing another even more problematic thing to explain in order to get rid of the first problem, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and the first problem is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not see any nessecity for making things harder to explain. Since I consider the existance of any god(and there is an infinte number of possible ones) an extremely unlikely possibility I equate that with stating that I do not believe in god, I am not stating my undying belief in a Universe without a god, this is an assumption on your part that I wish you would stop making.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you do not believe in God, you are an athiest, will you just make up your mind? lets try a simple mulitple choice, answer A, B or C A: There is a God (of some sort) B: There is no God whatsoever C: I dont know
I have seen it, and I refuted that claim in another thread(with no response). I don't care to look for that thread again so here is roughly what I said as I can remember.
Saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity, it is saying you _do not know_ if there is a god... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
once again, we are getting confused between athiesim and agnosticism
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The devil doesn't belong to any religion or faith, yet he believes in God
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therefor I am saying I do not know, where as you are saying you do, which do you think requires faith and which doesn't? You are the one making extraordinary claims so obviously the burden of proof IS on you not me since I'm not making any claims at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(once again) You are claiming that you do not know. That claim must be backed up with evidence
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I claim there is a teapot made of osmium in orbit around jupiter I am the one making highly unlikely and unjustified claims. Unless I can offer some shred of evidence you can wisely choose to refute my claims as exceedingly unlikely(without any need for faith) and up for me to prove or you can choose to believe me and have blind faith in my osmium teapot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There may be, i have not been to jupiter so i do not know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Faith is by definition irrational belief in some statement, when proof is offered no faith(irrational belief) is required.
As I am stating my ignorance I need not prove myself and no irrational convictions in a set of proposterous statements is required.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
n. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. A set of principles or beliefs.
Notice it says "Belief that does not rest on logical proof " thats not the same as irrational belief
--
Geminosity:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By that reasoning I didn't find him so he doesn't exist<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and i found him how? If he doesnt exist, how did i find him? i know, maybe he is only in my house! yes! thats it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Saying you don't believe in god is a statement showing an absence of faith, saying there is no god would probably work for your lil statement though <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
saying you do not believe is syaing you have been to every corner of the universe and not found him, you have lived for ever and he has never revealed himself to anyone you have ever met (and you have met everybody who has ever lived), you know all the facts in the whole universe and one of them says "God does not exist" now, have you done that? didnt think so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone has a sig with some witty remark basically saying NS is good and Savage players are somewhat misguided. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But my sig doesnt say "Christians are Good and everyone else is going to burn in hell" It is not opinionated or linked into any particular religion. It is just saying (to use your example) "Saying NS is good is just as much of an opinion as saying Savage is good"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->everyone's welcome to their own take on the world they live in but when an athiest puts anti-god remarks in their sig/avatar or a religious person puts anti-athiesm remarks in their sig, nothing positive results from it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the point of God, anyway? All these things, like not killing people, or not stealing are pretty obvious. What does God do that's so special, anyway?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and i found him how? If he doesnt exist, how did i find him? i know, maybe he is only in my house! yes! thats it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well if you can say I didn't try hard enough, I'm quite within my rights to suggest you tried so hard you found what you wanted to find even though it wasn't there. Considering it's not 'find' in a physical sense you can't really prove it with anything other than your enthusiasm and words. Maybe you're right, maybe he's only in your house after all... sitting next to tommy your childhood imaginary friend. Not to be cruel but shrieking that you found god at me is only going to make me lose patience with you. Stay subjective or expect flak; this is why you get people so worked up around you in these silly threads. Me and Marine are just having a giggle and a pillow fight, while you're sitting there having a frigging heartattack =P
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->saying you do not believe is syaing you have been to every corner of the universe and not found him, you have lived for ever and he has never revealed himself to anyone you have ever met (and you have met everybody who has ever lived), you know all the facts in the whole universe and one of them says "God does not exist" now, have you done that? didnt think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ~blink~ um... did you read that after you typed it? Saying you 'KNOW' would make sense in that little weird rant of yours but belief? nuh-uh. Like I said; "saying there is no god takes as much faith as saying there is one" is sensible but your current one isn't quite right ^^
Okies, so it's not exactly <i>directly</i> anti-athiest, but it's still very heavy brow christian. It's like having someone leaning on you and breathing down your neck while you're trying to do something; it just annoys you and makes you want to elbow them in the gut >< Let's just put it this way; how many athiests have told you 'my thats a good point' as apposed to 'thats fricking annoying'. Maybe you're just not good at understanding what people are like but that sig isn't far off making faces at athiests, especially in it's current incorrect form =P
<b>edit:</b> boggle, since when did someone saying 'I dunno ~shrug~' have to prove their point? I mean... what kind of point IS not knowing? It's not a point, it's just a stance or statement. It certainly doesn't need any defence or explanation; being uncertain isn't something he or any agnostic would try and convert people to. Christians and Athiests are the ones claiming they're right, agnostics are just saying 'then one of you convince me then' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> soy's just a case of an agnostic with a heavy tilt towards athiesm that's all ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 20 2003, 05:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 20 2003, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and i found him how? If he doesnt exist, how did i find him? i know, maybe he is only in my house! yes! thats it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well if you can say I didn't try hard enough, I'm quite within my rights to suggest you tried so hard you found what you wanted to find even though it wasn't there. Considering it's not 'find' in a physical sense you can't really prove it with anything other than your enthusiasm and words. Maybe you're right, maybe he's only in your house after all... sitting next to tommy your childhood imaginary friend. Not to be cruel but shrieking that you found god at me is only going to make me lose patience with you. Stay subjective or expect flak; this is why you get people so worked up around you in these silly threads. Me and Marine are just having a giggle and a pillow fight, while you're sitting there having a frigging heartattack =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well, shreiking that you didnt find God so therefore he doesnt exist is just going to get me lose patience as well. Its a rediculous statement. "i was looking for my pen , i didnt find it so therefore it must not exist" Its absurd.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->saying you do not believe is syaing you have been to every corner of the universe and not found him, you have lived for ever and he has never revealed himself to anyone you have ever met (and you have met everybody who has ever lived), you know all the facts in the whole universe and one of them says "God does not exist" now, have you done that? didnt think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ~blink~ um... did you read that after you typed it? Saying you 'KNOW' would make sense in that little weird rant of yours but belief? nuh-uh. Like I said; "saying there is no god takes as much faith as saying there is one" is sensible but your current one isn't quite right ^^
Okies, so it's not exactly <i>directly</i> anti-athiest, but it's still very heavy brow christian. It's like having someone leaning on you and breathing down your neck while you're trying to do something; it just annoys you and makes you want to elbow them in the gut ><<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, if it is heavy christian stuff, why did i find it in a philosophy book which treates all concepts of God as equal, and why, when i said this to my philosophy teacher, who is definitely not christian, why did she agree with me?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's just put it this way; how many athiests have told you 'my thats a good point' as apposed to 'thats fricking annoying'. Maybe you're just not good at understanding what people are like but that sig isn't far off making faces at athiests, especially in it's current incorrect form =P<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So far, you are the only person who has said anything much about it (ie thats fricking annoying) while 2 athiests (my A level philoposhy teachers) have said "thats a good point"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>edit:</b> boggle, since when did someone saying 'I dunno ~shrug~' have to prove their point? I mean... what kind of point IS not knowing? It's not a point, it's just a stance or statement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yet my stance and statement has to be backed up why? it is, after all, just a statement or stance, isnt it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It certainly doesn't need any defence or explanation; <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to explain why you dont know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->being uncertain isn't something he or any agnostic would try and convert people to. Christians and Athiests are the ones claiming they're right, agnostics are just saying 'then one of you convince me then' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> soy's just a case of an agnostic with a heavy tilt towards athiesm that's all ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is interesting that agnostics live as if they were athiests (ie they live as if there was no God) in that sense, they need to explain why thier lifestlye is the way it is. If they are not sure, why not live as if there was a God instead? Explain that.
About 4 years ago, I was in an accident. Knowing that I was clinging to life in a intesive care room, would you think that I would start to believe....
No, it just made me more of a disbeliever. I was in excruiting pain (even the morphine could not dull the pain I was in), I didn't sleep for 4 days and that with the morphine started to make me hallucinate. I would end up screaming at night, begging God to take the pain away...he never did, I was like that for a week. Why bring me so much physical pain when all my life I have tried to do nothing but good?
Forward two years from that point. Got my first girlfriend. She was a christian, her family was hardcore christian, and me being an atheist at the time didn't help. All the time they would try to convert me, but I resisted. My girlfriend didn't mind, we were happy together.
forward another two years...to now.
She ended up going to college, started drinking, doing drugs, and sleeping around. Not once in our relationship did I do anything to hurt her, and then she goes and does that. we broke up, and eventually the love I felt for her turned to hate, I can't stand to talk to her anymore. I attack her christianity, telling her me being an atheist, my christian values are still better than hers. She told me no because Im not baptized, and that God will forgive her, and blah blah blah....
Now, I drift through this life, only finding pain and suffering, both in the mental and physical way. I have never done anything to deserve this. I don't do drugs, I obey the law, I give to charity, I do nothing but try to help people. Why would a so called benevolet God want to cause all this pain and suffering to those who don't deserve it? I say Im an atheist, but most nights I end up cursing God, asking him why I should live this life. Why create me to do want nothing but good, and then take away all that which makes me happy? I try to be mean, but I just can't be.
Right now, my view is this. Religion is a sham, and If I do nothing but good for the rest of my life and (if there is a heaven) still go to hell, then thats not a God I want to worship.
People should be judged on their actions, not their beliefs.
Comments
This means that god didn't create it either... and if that's the case then either god doesn't exist or even stretching to the fact he also existed forever it means he's taking credit for something that happened without him =P
God created a universe in which everything comes from SOMETHING else. Thus it is impossible for us to understand how something could just have eternally pre-existed. So we take it on faith. God has always been, he was never created.
Another important point - God created time itself, and exists outside of it, so its really hard to try and specify WHEN he came to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reminds me of when homer accidently proved there was no god doing his taxes. hehe
Now then, do you have an actual answer to my argument besides the "lots of really smart people disagree" approach ?
When was the last time - golden light shone forth and heavenly angels sang - when you read the Bible ? You said it yourself, it is a book. Written by Man. You believe Yahweh more than Baal ? Why ? Because of ancient text ? Lots of gods have wonderful texts that contain many great fantastic tales also. Oddly enough some of those are rather close to the ones in the Bible...hmmmm.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, there is absolute truth, and it is Him, His word and His Son. That's something I firmly believe, and is one of the strongest pillars of my faith. There are so many historical events catalogued by the Bible that have been verified by outside sources that they cannot be conveniently counted. Cataloging them all would be a life's work--or as it were, has been many men's lives' works.
As far as the adaptation of a hymn or psalm, I'd like to point out that psalms are worship songs, and were intended as such when they were written. The reason they are included in the Bible is the same reason many Christian churches have hymnals--choral praise is another major form of worship for many. Contemporary songs have borrowed songs from different genres--pop songs by N'Sync showing up on country radio stations redone by country artists, etc. They began as songs and have been included to demonstrate the more remarkable or amazing songs that had been written/adapted to praise the Lord.
As far as my faith, I'll tell you quite honestly why I believe in Jesus Christ. When I was introduced to Christianity, I was young, bored and inattentive. I learned Bible stories more as a form of history than anything else. When I was 16, I was reintroduced to Christianity, and went to church as the only member of my household who did. I learned more about the Bible and Christianity out of curiosity. At some point I opened my mind to what I was being taught, stopped ignoring it and shrugging it off. I proceeded to read the Bible from cover to cover, and after reading certain scriptures--namely, Genesis 35-50, the four gospels, Acts, Romans and others--I felt quite moved. Valuable lessons weren't the only thing I got from them. I could almost feel a physical shift in my view of the world. The faith these men had in the Lord spoke quite convincingly to me. I could feel my mind opening even further, and my heart no longer felt hardened. Songs of praise went from simple singing to actual worship. Coming to know the Lord's Word was only the beginning. Every single day since that, the Lord has been part of my life--whether I wanted Him to be or not. His presence has been more real than you could honestly imagine. I believe because quite honestly, after my life's experiences and my studies, there aren't any options left.
As far as "fantastic tales" close to those in the Bible, they're generally called "cultural universalities"--something that is found in every culture worldwide (common example-- a story regarding creation). As was pointed out earlier, by scientific sources, you would find the agricultural revolution supposedly occuring spontaneously in roughly a dozen locations worldwide. If humanity as a whole developed certain things at the same time in very different locations, you could quite honestly make the conjecutre that they all did have relatively similar experiences in many areas. Whereas with my faith, a God who created Man much more credibly and realistically explains how Man developed similar techniques, similar experiences and similar stories all within a geologically narrow time period in many different places worldwide.
I grew up in a Christian environment and frankly wrestled with many issues. Something just did not "feel right". The teachings of Jesus can be viewed in quite a sinister light IMO with things like "have faith like a child". To me that means don't think, just obey. Why should I not think ? That doesn't sit well with me.
With my recent research into the old testament I am convinced that Yahweh was nothing more than any other deity mentioned at the time.
I don't and will never understand why anything Baal-ish should be allowed in the bible. It's one thing to adapt a non-religious song, but to adapt a song from another religion ? That seems to break the sacredness of the Bible to my mind.
At any rate, this discussion has been interesting but I fear that I probably don't have much more to contribute really. Clearly I think we've all pretty much 'dug-in' our respective positions and I don't see either one shifting anytime soon.
Fair enough though eh ?
I was peddling on the faithful bike to work when a holy light shone around me, I was knocked off my bike and onto my knees. A great voice spoke in the Heavens - "NUBLET" it rumbled.
"Y-y-yes" I replied, this was obviously a being who knew me to the very core.
"Know that I AM, the Lord your God, before whom all tremble and kneel - get thyself back unto the discussion forums, and say this, that I, Yahweh, who exists from everlasting to everlast, have sent you all a message: And the message is this.
All scientists, be they creationist or otherwise, agree that the Universe had a beginning, a starting point. Both the Big Bang and Creation theorys believe this. Thus, as we understand it, the universe started at a point, and when something starts, it has to be created. Evolutionists can give you a rough date based on the rate the universe is expanding as to WHEN, creationists think it was about 6000 years ago, but no one is claiming the Universe has always existed. The universe is ruled by entropy, going from order to disorder. You cannot be in this state forever, eventually you will move completely to disorder. Which leads us all to the conclusion that the Universe had a beginning point.
Sorry Gem, but my arguement cannot be turned around to support a universe theory. It is entirely possible that God has always existed, but the same cannot be said of the universe.
And all this from a direct revelation from the Supreme being - either that or it hit me when I was hydrobathing a dog that bit me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Which version you choose to believe is up to you.
EDIT Larry, why I believe mine more - I base it on the people around me given that I am not a Christian. But most Christians will tell you that they find it hilarious that people tell them their God does not exist. They feel they have a deep and personal relationship with God, and when people tell them he's not there they find it strange. "But I was talking to him 5 min ago".
A good parallel is a man and his wife. He has been living with this woman for 50 years, he knows her completely and utterly. Then one day, when he is at work, the police come up to him and say, "Sir, your wife just tied up thirty people in a room and decapitated them with a kitchen knife."
The man laughs. The police say "No Sir, its true, we even have witnesses" And still the man says "I'm sorry but you have got the wrong person, my wife would never do that". So the police say, "But we have conclusive photographic and taped proof that she did." And still the man wont believe it. "You havent even looked at our evidence yet, and still you refuse to admit the possiblity she did it?" And the man replies "I dont need to look, I know my wife, and she would never do somthing like this."He has no hard evidence to base his assumption on, but he knows his wife, he has experienced her for all those years, and on faith he will never believe it.
The Christians are so sure that their God exists and is the right one because they experience him on a day to day basis.
Actually... In tarot card readings when the death card comes up most people will gasp or laugh or be genuinely worried. The problem is, in tarot death merely means change for when something dies, something new takes it's place.
The universe could be argued to have a beginning, but what if the beginning is the end? Like I said "Everything in the universe could have always been; it just breaks down then reforms again forever in a cyclic tale that starts and ends in the immeasurable depths of infinity" ^~
I'm happy enough to apply the idea of eternal universes even if the scientists aren't =3
as for credibility, normal rules don't apply to me because I'm special ^~
I think. i obey. I have thought many times about why i believe what i believe. My faith started off as that of a child, wait, i was a child... But i have since then began to think for myself, and the more i though about it, the more it all makes sense to me. Yes, sometimes i have my doubts, i am only human, maybe i am being deluded by a 2000 year prank, or maybe i have found the meaning of life. I would say it is a chance i am willing to take, but that would devalue it. Having experienced it, i doubt i could live without it, knowing what a difference it makes to people's lives, it has either got to be a very elaborate prank or some serious "shizzle"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think. i obey. I have thought many times about why i believe what i believe. My faith started off as that of a child, wait, i was a child... But i have since then began to think for myself, and the more i though about it, the more it all makes sense to me. Yes, sometimes i have my doubts, i am only human, maybe i am being deluded by a 2000 year prank, or maybe i have found the meaning of life. I would say it is a chance i am willing to take, but that would devalue it. Having experienced it, i doubt i could live without it, knowing what a difference it makes to people's lives, it has either got to be a very elaborate prank or some serious "shizzle"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure where he got that "Have faith like a child" phrase, the closest reference I could find with a 2 minute search was
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, <b>anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.</b>"
--Luke 18:16-17, NIV<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would indicate that one is not supposed to think about it, just have faith blindly. Of course, that might depend on how you interprit it.
--Luke 18:16-17, NIV<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would indicate that one is not supposed to think about it, just have faith blindly. Of course, that might depend on how you interprit it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
notice it says recieve. Accepting is only the first part. When someon give you a really nice present, you dont just say "wow, thats wonderful, thankyou" and then put it in a cupboard for the rest of your life. You want to use it, play with it, find out how it works.
Jesus is saying accept my gift as if you were a child. dont look at it, try to poke holes in it or find flaws, because then you will never experienc it. Its like at a swimming pool. You see lots of people having fun, and you want to join them. Instead of edging slowly down the ladder into the shallow end, jump off the diving board into the deep end.
Once you have accepted the gift, then you can think about it. examine it closely. If then you find you do not like it (which i doubt), at least you tried,m you had the experience. you didnt sit on the sidelines, you played the game.
Jesus is saying that all these scholars and philosophers are going about it all wrong. they are the men in white coats with thermometers and all sorts of measuring devices trying to get knowledge about the pool, when the only way to find to is to jump in. You may call it blind faith, but we have all got to take risks sometimes in our lives, if you dont, you are not living.
This is the simplest and most fundamental reason why I find the existence of some god in one form or another a rediculous thought: What seems simpler? A very complex creature that somehow comes into existence out of nothing, or that for some inexplicable reason has allways existed and possibly is all there ever was before the Universe and which is only needed to explain the beginnings of the Universe(debatable, but if god exists I can't find anything to point at and say that this is it's 'magic touch' and can't be explained without intervention from said being.). Or that the Universe, something which seems(at least to some, including me) to follow simple rules and seems to need no 'magic touch´ for either rough explanation of it's evolution since it's beginning or for prediction of the outcome of events(even if said prediction is just statistical due to our limitations of gathering information and processing it or from chaotic behaviour(systems where small errors grow to overthrow any predictions made about it given enough time, a system where such conditions occur is wheater and planetary motion of more than 2 bodies, even if somehow completely isolated from the rest of the Universe. The existance of such 'sensitivity to initial conditions' or chaotic behaviour in a system is predictable and explainable) or from the impact of quantum mechanics which limits us to statistical predictions of some phenomena). There would seem to be no simplification made in explaining the existance of the Universe in assuming there is some god, I see it as making things all that much harder for yourself since now you need to explain the existence of god, just one more unproven speculation to explain.
(And why stop there, why not recursively invent more gods to explain the existance of the first one. You could say that if you have an infinite chain of gods all creating each other then there is no first one to explain and the question would lack meaning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Sorry, I just felt the need for some sillyness in this long a post)
I need just as much justification for there being a god as religious people need justification for there being a Universe without the nessecity of a god, the alternative is just as unthinkable to me as it is for them. Additionally most religious believers are of a specific conviction, they believe all sorts of things about god and the Universe that are rather specific, for me, this puts the burden of proof firmly in their responsibillity since they are making these extraordinary claims.
If god is just needed at a bit in the begining of the Universe and doesn't directly affect me it as well as leaves me clueless as to what this potential deity intends with the Universe and in more of a particular concern to me, myself, then why would I need to assume the existance of such an entity or care for it's eventuall intentions(which I cannot know)? For all I care there could be elves behind the scenes making everything work as long as the world appears to behave in a nice and predictable manner(by means of science) and does not seem to 'need' any special consideration for elves in the description of it.
You would almost certainly have to give me some kind of brain transplant to get 'me' to believe in god, or you can allways hold me at gun point and I will say I believe in god if that makes you not shoot me(I won't really though) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
((btw recursive use of(I like cheese don't you?( <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )) parenthesis is really annoying but it is a bad habbit of mine)) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Jesus is saying accept my gift as if you were a child. dont look at it, try to poke holes in it or find flaws, because then you will never experienc it. Its like at a swimming pool. You see lots of people having fun, and you want to join them. Instead of edging slowly down the ladder into the shallow end, jump off the diving board into the deep end.
Once you have accepted the gift, then you can think about it. examine it closely. If then you find you do not like it (which i doubt), at least you tried,m you had the experience. you didnt sit on the sidelines, you played the game.
Jesus is saying that all these scholars and philosophers are going about it all wrong. they are the men in white coats with thermometers and all sorts of measuring devices trying to get knowledge about the pool, when the only way to find to is to jump in. You may call it blind faith, but we have all got to take risks sometimes in our lives, if you dont, you are not living.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
boggle, why would I accept that particular faith? Why not any of the literally thousands of other ones or invent one of my own?
How am I not living when I don't embrace a particular set of wild assumptions compiled in one hard to read(or at least interpret) book? Christianity is not special, it is not the only religion and it cannot be objectively known to be better than any other religion/belief system.
It seems most religions contain lots of assumptions which are horribly difficult to prove and when you say 'burden of proof is on you' the answer is almost invariably that you must have blind faith in it. This seems to be exactly what you are telling me here.
Assume I have cobbled togheter some religion, lets say, a religion where any quantum mechanical outcome(which are entirely random but follow statistical laws exceptionally well)that can happen happens in every particular occasion giving rise to an infinite set of Universes croping of from each other and that there is no need to explain how it all started because the Universe has allways existed in the first place making the question of it's origins meaningless. Then according to your first analogy with the present this is a nice gift I'm giving to you that you will want to 'play with' when I am telling my weird set of assumptions? Really? How do you find time to 'play' with all those weird sets of assumptions you come across everyday?
In my opinion having blind faith is giving up time you could better have spent really living(as in playing NS, programming, watching television, arranging pyrotechnical displays or playing chess or whatever kind of activity that you enjoy).
If I enterpret risk correctly then I can have fun(which I suppose you mean by 'live') without taking any risks. Preferably I would take no risks at all while maximizing my fun since risks implies chance of some kind of loss. Some risks are unavoidable but I don't on the whole consider them fun.
If I go skydiving it is not the risk of instant death that makes it fun, it is the act of skydiving(don't mean to imply that I do this, just an example). If I could skydive without any risk I would find it more enjoyable than if I would skydive at the risk of death.
Risk is never the fun part of anything for me, challenge is fun however. NS is a good example here, I risk nothing if I lose, I can just play again(unlike skydiving <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, once your a big pavement pizza you can no longer extract pleasure from anything, skydiving or otherwise), and killing aliens/marines is not in itself a fun activity, it is the challenge of doing so that is the fun part. Risk does not imply challenge as far as I know, take russian roulette, nothing much that is more risky, but it's not really challenging to do. The risk is so large in russian roullete that few are willing to take it, it is not fun in any way.
Jesus is saying accept my gift as if you were a child. dont look at it, try to poke holes in it or find flaws, because then you will never experienc it. Its like at a swimming pool. You see lots of people having fun, and you want to join them. Instead of edging slowly down the ladder into the shallow end, jump off the diving board into the deep end.
Once you have accepted the gift, then you can think about it. examine it closely. If then you find you do not like it (which i doubt), at least you tried,m you had the experience. you didnt sit on the sidelines, you played the game.
Jesus is saying that all these scholars and philosophers are going about it all wrong. they are the men in white coats with thermometers and all sorts of measuring devices trying to get knowledge about the pool, when the only way to find to is to jump in. You may call it blind faith, but we have all got to take risks sometimes in our lives, if you dont, you are not living.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
boggle, why would I accept that particular faith? Why not any of the literally thousands of other ones or invent one of my own?
How am I not living when I don't embrace a particular set of wild assumptions compiled in one hard to read(or at least interpret) book? Christianity is not special, it is not the only religion and it cannot be objectively known to be better than any other religion/belief system.
It seems most religions contain lots of assumptions which are horribly difficult to prove and when you say 'burden of proof is on you' the answer is almost invariably that you must have blind faith in it. This seems to be exactly what you are telling me here.
Assume I have cobbled togheter some religion, lets say, a religion where any quantum mechanical outcome(which are entirely random but follow statistical laws exceptionally well)that can happen happens in every particular occasion giving rise to an infinite set of Universes croping of from each other and that there is no need to explain how it all started because the Universe has allways existed in the first place making the question of it's origins meaningless. Then according to your first analogy with the present this is a nice gift I'm giving to you that you will want to 'play with' when I am telling my weird set of assumptions? Really? How do you find time to 'play' with all those weird sets of assumptions you come across everyday?
In my opinion having blind faith is giving up time you could better have spent really living(as in playing NS, programming, watching television, arranging pyrotechnical displays or playing chess or whatever kind of activity that you enjoy).
If I enterpret risk correctly then I can have fun(which I suppose you mean by 'live') without taking any risks. Preferably I would take no risks at all while maximizing my fun since risks implies chance of some kind of loss. Some risks are unavoidable but I don't on the whole consider them fun.
If I go skydiving it is not the risk of instant death that makes it fun, it is the act of skydiving(don't mean to imply that I do this, just an example). If I could skydive without any risk I would find it more enjoyable than if I would skydive at the risk of death.
Risk is never the fun part of anything for me, challenge is fun however. NS is a good example here, I risk nothing if I lose, I can just play again(unlike skydiving <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, once your a big pavement pizza you can no longer extract pleasure from anything, skydiving or otherwise), and killing aliens/marines is not in itself a fun activity, it is the challenge of doing so that is the fun part. Risk does not imply challenge as far as I know, take russian roulette, nothing much that is more risky, but it's not really challenging to do. The risk is so large in russian roullete that few are willing to take it, it is not fun in any way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soylent - try it. You have absolutely nothing to lose. Great start point - pray. Deity, if you even exist, I'm going to try and find you. And I'm going to start with the Christian religion (heck start wherever you want, I just suggest the Christian religion first because I believe it will save you a whole stack of time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). So if you exist, help me to find you. Then open your mind and go searching for answers. If he really exists, then you'll find him. If he doesnt, then you have lost nothing but time, something you cant keep anyway.
Jesus said that whoever seeks shall find, so if you didnt find, you weren't looking
<!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+,--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ ,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Additionally most religious believers are of a specific conviction, they believe all sorts of things about god and the Universe that are rather specific, for me, this puts the burden of proof firmly in their responsibillity since they are making these extraordinary claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah, the classi "burden of proof" You do realise that when you say you are an athiest, you claim to be omniscient and omnipresent. If you are not, you will have to accept that there are facts you do not know, places you have not been, times you havent lived in. If you admit to that (which you should, because it is true) you admit to the possibility that one of the facts you do not know is that God exists, one of the places you have not been is where he is, one of the times you haven't lived in is when he revealed himself.
The burden of proof mate, is just as much on my shoulders as it is on yours, and no amount of twisting is going to shake it off. (see sig)
Jesus said that whoever seeks shall find, so if you didnt find, you weren't looking
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh?, If god doesn't reveal himself or doesn't affect me in any way why should I care about 'it's' possiblel(but in my opinion highly unlikely) existance? It may not even wan't to be found, and I find the idea of 'it' caring about my existance even more proposterous. I do not care about ants, once when a few where invading my room I sprayed isopropanol on them until they died without a second thought. Why would god care about the unsignificant little human infestation on a tiny little planet somewhere in the Universe? That's just a rediculous assumption.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ah, the classi "burden of proof" You do realise that when you say you are an athiest, you claim to be omniscient and omnipresent. If you are not, you will have to accept that there are facts you do not know, places you have not been, times you havent lived in. If you admit to that (which you should, because it is true) you admit to the possibility that one of the facts you do not know is that God exists, one of the places you have not been is where he is, one of the times you haven't lived in is when he revealed himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Au contraire, saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity and that you are imposing all sorts of constraints on the nature of the Universe, it is saying you do not know if there is a god and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith. You state your 'knowledge' of god and some fundamental properties of the Universe, I need not prove myself as I have claimed nothing, however you have claimed something, you prove it.
Secondly, if god doesn't show 'itself', affect me in any way or reaveal 'it's' intensions or seem nessecary for explaining anything but possibly the first nanoseconds of the Universe why should I care if 'it' is behind the scenes making the world work in a comprehensible and 'physical' manner? How do you propose I explain the existance of a god appearing in the first place? I consider a god to be a possibillity, rediculously unlikely however, since a god does not explain anything. Using god as an explanation is just abstracting away the problem by inventing another even more problematic thing to explain in order to get rid of the first problem, I do not see any nessecity for making things harder to explain. Since I consider the existance of any god(and there is an infinte number of possible ones) an extremely unlikely possibility I equate that with stating that I do not believe in god, I am not stating my undying belief in a Universe without a god, this is an assumption on your part that I wish you would stop making.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(see sig) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen it, and I refuted that claim in another thread(with no response). I don't care to look for that thread again so here is roughly what I said as I can remember.
Saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity, it is saying you _do not know_ if there is a god and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith. Therefor I am saying I do not know, where as you are saying you do, which do you think requires faith and which doesn't? You are the one making extraordinary claims so obviously the burden of proof IS on you not me since I'm not making any claims at all.
If I claim there is a teapot made of osmium in orbit around jupiter I am the one making highly unlikely and unjustified claims. Unless I can offer some shred of evidence you can wisely choose to refute my claims as exceedingly unlikely(without any need for faith) and up for me to prove or you can choose to believe me and have blind faith in my osmium teapot.
Faith is by definition irrational belief in some statement, when proof is offered no faith(irrational belief) is required.
As I am stating my ignorance I need not prove myself and no irrational convictions in a set of proposterous statements is required.
The great thing about statements like mine gemin - is that I cant lose. If you didnt find him, then you're obviously not looking hard enough/have closed your mind to him. If you do find him, great stuff.
So you see - its a win/win for me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and soylent - being an athiest IS saying that God does not exist. What you are describing is the slightly more gutless version - agnosticism, or the idea that we cannot know whether God exists. Funnily enough, every agnostic I have ever met has chosen to live like he doesnt - I've never met one that decided he cant no whether God exists but hes going to bet on the safe side <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marine, I have lost nothing but time? I do not think there is anything else worse to lose than my precious little time I have before it is party time for all the little worms. Why on Earth would I wish to while away my precious time I can spend on having fun when I judge the existance of god an all to unlikely event and when I judge the likelyhood of any eventual god of caring about insignificant little humans to be laughable?
I have lost enough time with religious education in the public school system(actually not that much, but still too much) learning about various religions from a not allways to factual manner(burning incence in class anyone?), well not completely lost really, it was quite fun arguing with the teacher instead of going to lunch <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->(free school lunch == worst smeg ever), it is fun how he allways fell back on 'you have to have faith' type arguments from whatever statements he had made to the contrary, but he was quite informative of any religion not just christianity. It was also fun getting the best possible grades in a class I on the whole didn't much enjoy and still bash organised religion at every possible oppertunity a question was asked, even on the exam <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Oh and in like 3rd grade we had this weird teacher who thought it was reasonable to read crap out of the bible to us for like half an hour on fridays or something. But everyone was to busy burning strands of hair in stearine candles or playing with the hot wax to listen(you know how bad it smells if you burn a bunch of hair? smelled like hell in there <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). This is the same teacher who wanted everyone to work at the same pace and not 'leave anyone behind'. So she wanted me and a bunch of others to learn math slower(!), going to the principal got me and some others out of both listening to bible stories and of being 'held back' from learing, apparently reading directly out of the bible is not something you can force anyone to listen to. At that time I didn't even know these stories where supposed to be 'real', I thought is was just some really weird collection of fairy tales because she just assumed we knew. That teacher was eventually fired, and I have never had to cope which such an incompetent teacher again.
My parents are really neutral and wouldn't have cared if I was an atheist or budhist or whatever(well, satanist I think they would have cared... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->, hopefully), they didn't force me to believe anything and not to any ones suprise(I hope) I don't have any faith(~irrational belief in a set of unlikely assumptions).
Either that or 'it' just doesn't care, you can now safely ignore 'it' without any bad repercussions <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->.
So sure, live it up now. Or dont, or kill your neighbour. Not that any of it really matters.
I dont find time important because I cant keep it. I can use it, but there is no point to using it if in the end I just become zeroed, x-ed, nothing. So no, your time on earth isnt important - it will be gone before you know it. And at the end of it all - you are either right, and you become nothing, in which case it wont really matter what the hell you did with your life, you wont even exist so you couldnt tell if you partied hard or spent the whole time in church, or the theists are right, and there is something after, something better.
If time is all you have to lose, and eternal life is all you have to gain - you seem to be on a good wicket.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose". You cant keep your time, why not sacrifice a little over a possibility?
By that reasoning I didn't find him so he doesn't exist; saying I didn't look hard enough is just an escape clause. It's like saying you can make people's heads explode if you concentrate hard enough then telling them they didn't try hard enough when they fail <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and boggle, you might want to alter your sig; Saying you don't believe in god is a statement showing an absence of faith, saying there is no god would probably work for your lil statement though ^^
Just a question but what's so great about 'heaven' anyways? =P
<b>~sigh~ edit:</b> ok, boggle... The more I think about it the more I think I should try and point out the <u>real</u> problem with your sig =/
Imagine you were part of a large Forum that was dedicated to FPS/RTS games; the most popular games on this board of course being NS and Savage with the community somewhat split in opinions but coexisting happily enough apart from the few 'friendly' skirmishes in a section of the board reserved for these kinds of debates. Someone has a sig with some witty remark basically saying NS is good and Savage players are somewhat misguided.
Half the board who weren't really into NS aren't gonna have a high opinion of the guy; having people's opinions/beliefs waved in your face at the bottom of every single post they make doesn't come off as particularly friendly, open-minded nor respectful of people's differences.
Of the remaining Half, some might think it's a clever little ditty and smile but it won't really up their opinion of you; after all it's just a sig. The rest after they're filtered out falls into 2 final camps; those who don't care and ignore it anyway and those who also like NS but think people who flaunt what they think is right irrespective of others is what gives NS players a bad reputation amongst Savage players and generally more open-minded individuals.
I hope my point's clear enough... everyone's welcome to their own take on the world they live in but when an athiest puts anti-god remarks in their sig/avatar or a religious person puts anti-athiesm remarks in their sig, nothing positive results from it =P
Jesus said that whoever seeks shall find, so if you didnt find, you weren't looking
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh?, If god doesn't reveal himself or doesn't affect me in any way why should I care about 'it's' possiblel(but in my opinion highly unlikely) existance? It may not even wan't to be found, and I find the idea of 'it' caring about my existance even more proposterous. I do not care about ants, once when a few where invading my room I sprayed isopropanol on them until they died without a second thought. Why would god care about the unsignificant little human infestation on a tiny little planet somewhere in the Universe? That's just a rediculous assumption.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is holding out his hand, he has told youhe is holding out his had, all you have to do is take it. how much easier could he make it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ah, the classi "burden of proof" You do realise that when you say you are an athiest, you claim to be omniscient and omnipresent. If you are not, you will have to accept that there are facts you do not know, places you have not been, times you havent lived in. If you admit to that (which you should, because it is true) you admit to the possibility that one of the facts you do not know is that God exists, one of the places you have not been is where he is, one of the times you haven't lived in is when he revealed himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Au contraire, saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity and that you are imposing all sorts of constraints on the nature of the Universe, it is saying you do not know if there is a god and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, thats being an agnostic, and it still requres faith, because, you decided to not make a decision, and even though you do not know, you still live your life as if there wasnt one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You state your 'knowledge' of god and some fundamental properties of the Universe, I need not prove myself as I have claimed nothing, however you have claimed something, you prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have claimed if you are an agnostic that you dont know if god exists. It is still a claim that needs to be backed up with evidence
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, if god doesn't show 'itself',... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
right, well there goes the rest of your agument. God has shown himself in the form of Jesus, and to a lesser extent in all the good things that happen in the world, and all the beauty. But i will carry on regardless, simply because i love a good discussion
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...affect me in any way or reaveal 'it's' intensions or seem nessecary for explaining anything but possibly the first nanoseconds of the Universe why should I care if 'it' is behind the scenes making the world work in a comprehensible and 'physical' manner? How do you propose I explain the existance of a god appearing in the first place? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God didnt appear in the first place, he has always been. he is eternal, outside of time. Dont try to understand it, you cant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I consider a god to be a possibillity, rediculously unlikely however, since a god does not explain anything. Using god as an explanation is just abstracting away the problem by inventing another even more problematic thing to explain in order to get rid of the first problem, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and the first problem is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not see any nessecity for making things harder to explain. Since I consider the existance of any god(and there is an infinte number of possible ones) an extremely unlikely possibility I equate that with stating that I do not believe in god, I am not stating my undying belief in a Universe without a god, this is an assumption on your part that I wish you would stop making.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you do not believe in God, you are an athiest, will you just make up your mind? lets try a simple mulitple choice, answer A, B or C
A: There is a God (of some sort)
B: There is no God whatsoever
C: I dont know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(see sig) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen it, and I refuted that claim in another thread(with no response). I don't care to look for that thread again so here is roughly what I said as I can remember.
Saying you are an atheist is not saying you are totally refuting the chance of there being some sort of deity, it is saying you _do not know_ if there is a god... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
once again, we are getting confused between athiesim and agnosticism
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...and you do not belong to any particular religion or faith.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The devil doesn't belong to any religion or faith, yet he believes in God
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therefor I am saying I do not know, where as you are saying you do, which do you think requires faith and which doesn't? You are the one making extraordinary claims so obviously the burden of proof IS on you not me since I'm not making any claims at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(once again) You are claiming that you do not know. That claim must be backed up with evidence
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I claim there is a teapot made of osmium in orbit around jupiter I am the one making highly unlikely and unjustified claims. Unless I can offer some shred of evidence you can wisely choose to refute my claims as exceedingly unlikely(without any need for faith) and up for me to prove or you can choose to believe me and have blind faith in my osmium teapot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There may be, i have not been to jupiter so i do not know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Faith is by definition irrational belief in some statement, when proof is offered no faith(irrational belief) is required.
As I am stating my ignorance I need not prove myself and no irrational convictions in a set of proposterous statements is required.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith' target='_blank'>Faith</a>: (acceptance, allegiance, assent, assurance, belief, certainty, certitude, confidence, constancy, conviction, credence, credit, credulity, dependence, faithfulness, fealty, fidelity, hope, loyalty, reliance, stock, store, sureness, surety, troth, truth, truthfulness)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.
Notice it says "Belief that does not rest on logical proof " thats not the same as irrational belief
--
Geminosity:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By that reasoning I didn't find him so he doesn't exist<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and i found him how? If he doesnt exist, how did i find him? i know, maybe he is only in my house! yes! thats it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Saying you don't believe in god is a statement showing an absence of faith, saying there is no god would probably work for your lil statement though <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
saying you do not believe is syaing you have been to every corner of the universe and not found him, you have lived for ever and he has never revealed himself to anyone you have ever met (and you have met everybody who has ever lived), you know all the facts in the whole universe and one of them says "God does not exist" now, have you done that? didnt think so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone has a sig with some witty remark basically saying NS is good and Savage players are somewhat misguided.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But my sig doesnt say "Christians are Good and everyone else is going to burn in hell" It is not opinionated or linked into any particular religion. It is just saying (to use your example) "Saying NS is good is just as much of an opinion as saying Savage is good"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->everyone's welcome to their own take on the world they live in but when an athiest puts anti-god remarks in their sig/avatar or a religious person puts anti-athiesm remarks in their sig, nothing positive results from it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But, my statement is not anti-athiest
well if you can say I didn't try hard enough, I'm quite within my rights to suggest you tried so hard you found what you wanted to find even though it wasn't there. Considering it's not 'find' in a physical sense you can't really prove it with anything other than your enthusiasm and words. Maybe you're right, maybe he's only in your house after all... sitting next to tommy your childhood imaginary friend. Not to be cruel but shrieking that you found god at me is only going to make me lose patience with you. Stay subjective or expect flak; this is why you get people so worked up around you in these silly threads. Me and Marine are just having a giggle and a pillow fight, while you're sitting there having a frigging heartattack =P
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->saying you do not believe is syaing you have been to every corner of the universe and not found him, you have lived for ever and he has never revealed himself to anyone you have ever met (and you have met everybody who has ever lived), you know all the facts in the whole universe and one of them says "God does not exist" now, have you done that? didnt think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
~blink~ um... did you read that after you typed it?
Saying you 'KNOW' would make sense in that little weird rant of yours but belief? nuh-uh.
Like I said; "saying there is no god takes as much faith as saying there is one" is sensible but your current one isn't quite right ^^
Okies, so it's not exactly <i>directly</i> anti-athiest, but it's still very heavy brow christian. It's like having someone leaning on you and breathing down your neck while you're trying to do something; it just annoys you and makes you want to elbow them in the gut ><
Let's just put it this way; how many athiests have told you 'my thats a good point' as apposed to 'thats fricking annoying'. Maybe you're just not good at understanding what people are like but that sig isn't far off making faces at athiests, especially in it's current incorrect form =P
<b>edit:</b> boggle, since when did someone saying 'I dunno ~shrug~' have to prove their point? I mean... what kind of point IS not knowing? It's not a point, it's just a stance or statement. It certainly doesn't need any defence or explanation; being uncertain isn't something he or any agnostic would try and convert people to. Christians and Athiests are the ones claiming they're right, agnostics are just saying 'then one of you convince me then' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
soy's just a case of an agnostic with a heavy tilt towards athiesm that's all ^^
well if you can say I didn't try hard enough, I'm quite within my rights to suggest you tried so hard you found what you wanted to find even though it wasn't there. Considering it's not 'find' in a physical sense you can't really prove it with anything other than your enthusiasm and words. Maybe you're right, maybe he's only in your house after all... sitting next to tommy your childhood imaginary friend. Not to be cruel but shrieking that you found god at me is only going to make me lose patience with you. Stay subjective or expect flak; this is why you get people so worked up around you in these silly threads. Me and Marine are just having a giggle and a pillow fight, while you're sitting there having a frigging heartattack =P
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, shreiking that you didnt find God so therefore he doesnt exist is just going to get me lose patience as well. Its a rediculous statement. "i was looking for my pen , i didnt find it so therefore it must not exist" Its absurd.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->saying you do not believe is syaing you have been to every corner of the universe and not found him, you have lived for ever and he has never revealed himself to anyone you have ever met (and you have met everybody who has ever lived), you know all the facts in the whole universe and one of them says "God does not exist" now, have you done that? didnt think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
~blink~ um... did you read that after you typed it?
Saying you 'KNOW' would make sense in that little weird rant of yours but belief? nuh-uh.
Like I said; "saying there is no god takes as much faith as saying there is one" is sensible but your current one isn't quite right ^^
Okies, so it's not exactly <i>directly</i> anti-athiest, but it's still very heavy brow christian. It's like having someone leaning on you and breathing down your neck while you're trying to do something; it just annoys you and makes you want to elbow them in the gut ><<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, if it is heavy christian stuff, why did i find it in a philosophy book which treates all concepts of God as equal, and why, when i said this to my philosophy teacher, who is definitely not christian, why did she agree with me?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's just put it this way; how many athiests have told you 'my thats a good point' as apposed to 'thats fricking annoying'. Maybe you're just not good at understanding what people are like but that sig isn't far off making faces at athiests, especially in it's current incorrect form =P<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So far, you are the only person who has said anything much about it (ie thats fricking annoying) while 2 athiests (my A level philoposhy teachers) have said "thats a good point"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>edit:</b> boggle, since when did someone saying 'I dunno ~shrug~' have to prove their point? I mean... what kind of point IS not knowing? It's not a point, it's just a stance or statement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yet my stance and statement has to be backed up why? it is, after all, just a statement or stance, isnt it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It certainly doesn't need any defence or explanation; <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to explain why you dont know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->being uncertain isn't something he or any agnostic would try and convert people to. Christians and Athiests are the ones claiming they're right, agnostics are just saying 'then one of you convince me then' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
soy's just a case of an agnostic with a heavy tilt towards athiesm that's all ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is interesting that agnostics live as if they were athiests (ie they live as if there was no God) in that sense, they need to explain why thier lifestlye is the way it is. If they are not sure, why not live as if there was a God instead? Explain that.
About 4 years ago, I was in an accident. Knowing that I was clinging to life in a intesive care room, would you think that I would start to believe....
No, it just made me more of a disbeliever. I was in excruiting pain (even the morphine could not dull the pain I was in), I didn't sleep for 4 days and that with the morphine started to make me hallucinate. I would end up screaming at night, begging God to take the pain away...he never did, I was like that for a week. Why bring me so much physical pain when all my life I have tried to do nothing but good?
Forward two years from that point. Got my first girlfriend. She was a christian, her family was hardcore christian, and me being an atheist at the time didn't help. All the time they would try to convert me, but I resisted. My girlfriend didn't mind, we were happy together.
forward another two years...to now.
She ended up going to college, started drinking, doing drugs, and sleeping around. Not once in our relationship did I do anything to hurt her, and then she goes and does that. we broke up, and eventually the love I felt for her turned to hate, I can't stand to talk to her anymore. I attack her christianity, telling her me being an atheist, my christian values are still better than hers. She told me no because Im not baptized, and that God will forgive her, and blah blah blah....
Now, I drift through this life, only finding pain and suffering, both in the mental and physical way. I have never done anything to deserve this. I don't do drugs, I obey the law, I give to charity, I do nothing but try to help people. Why would a so called benevolet God want to cause all this pain and suffering to those who don't deserve it? I say Im an atheist, but most nights I end up cursing God, asking him why I should live this life. Why create me to do want nothing but good, and then take away all that which makes me happy? I try to be mean, but I just can't be.
Right now, my view is this. Religion is a sham, and If I do nothing but good for the rest of my life and (if there is a heaven) still go to hell, then thats not a God I want to worship.
People should be judged on their actions, not their beliefs.