DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
working & playing as a administrator on a Windows Vista or higher pc is just asking for problems. Its completely not needed. If you do stuff on a limited user, UAC (yes, do use it) just pops up a password prompt if you need higher access. Guess what? If you are doing stuff like installing.. Fill in the password. If not, check wtf is going on.
I do everything as limited user, got my pc fully updated (and work pc's also) and haven't logged into the actual admin account in months. It really is not needed.
A limited user should always have the rights to make dumps of processes running in its own usermode. Which if you are gaming is basicly what is happening.
If ANY user can not make a crash dump of there own NS2 it is time to reinstall windows as its gotten to a point where the standard non computer person is better of starting fresh rather then fixing the actual problems.
I doubt there would be more then 1.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
First time disagreeing with you @dc_darkling !
If a user knows what he or she is doing, and is adequately paranoid, all uac provides is annoyance.
I wouldn't recommend it to everyone though obviously.
And there are plenty of times that lack of admin rights causes issues in a plethora of programs in my experience.
uac is not ment for administrators, its ment for limited users. You are, infact, using it wrong as a administrator.
Virusses, spyware and all the other crap these days is fast enough on modern pcs to do there work before any human can react. Working on a user account in essence means any possible crap you grab will be very able to nest itself in your OS.. fighting with your AV for system rights.
Paranoia will not cut it. (I am paranoid enough myself). These days you can get crap on legitimate sites by, for example, java exploits or adds. While you all have a smaller chance to get crap if you pay attention, its still there. Actually getting a virus will do far more damage under a administrator account.
A limited user + UAC gets, when you are just running games & programs, the uac popup....... never. Yes, never surely is a annoyance.
Windows updates can be easily configured to run under limited user, not prompting the uac.
Any other update which needs UAC happens around once a month. Most stuff these days runs as a service, again not prompting UAC.
Almost any game runs without administrator access or UAC. Most old games have more problems with stuff like DEP then write access.
Giving write access to a limited user on the game folder further limits the problem.
At the moment only one thing on my computer calls for UAC and thats java. Anything else is fully updated without it by services. I can run basicly any program or game I want, only stuff which interacts deep with the system like debuggers actually prompt me.
If I get a virus it must either:
* use a 0 day to bypass limited user. (As I run emet this reduces the chance on 0 days even further)
* get manually accepted by me to be installed.
* is simply running under the user profile & rights only.
* Point 1 is still safer then having all virusses instead of just 0 days.
* point 2 isnt needed if you run as admin.
* point 3 is fixed in a few minutes by either a new user or by the AV successfully crushing it as the virus can not possibly run as system.
And all that shiny protection for just 1 UAC popup a months.. Yes, a real annoyance.
If you get swamped by UAC prompts you are doing something very wrong with your windows setup.
Got to agree with Ironhorse here, if you know what you're doing, are careful about what you download, there's no reason not to use the build in admin account over a crappy (still limited) standard admin account with uac. Besides, my firewall pops up asking if <name>.exe is allowed to run every time a new executable is ran, so even if I did download a virus, it wouldn't run without my firewall catching it and asking for permission.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
And why do you asume a virus runs as a mere .exe?
it can have any extension or even hook itself into a process. Actually, a lot of viruses these days do hide themselves as temp files. You shall not notice with a firewall if it hooks itself onto a browser.
You stated no real reason why a limited account is crap.
* you can run almost any program or game on it effortlessly.
* you need to perhaps uac prompt it what.. 3 times a month unless you install loads. (and why on earth would you do that?)
Your only counter argument is paying attention = no virus which is wrong.
Many viruses are not picked up by a lot of AV scanners. (we had a run here in NL with a so called police virus which just will not be detected by so many)
Many run within valid executables.
Many will call upon 'temp' files to disguise them from the running list.
Many will hook themselves into system files, since you are running as admin, thus further limiting your blocking chance. (Good luck blocking one hooking itself to svchost.exe for example, as that one needs internet access)
You're right, they aren't always exe's, but UAC isn't going to stop hooks any more than a firewall. I'm aware of how viruses disguise themselves but I'll repeat, if you know what you're downloading, and know what you're doing, you will not get a virus. They do NOT just download themselves, user action HAS to help them SOMEWHERE along the line.
As far as why a limited account is crap? I ran into SOOO many restricted access bs over the years (not just uac, I mean complete denial of access) that I finally just said, fuck it, I'll use the unrestricted account. Because I HATE changing account just to be able to USE MY COMPUTER.
EDIT: In theory you don't even need an AV if you're careful enough.
Also, since using the admin account (actually since using win7 tbh) which must be what...2-3 years ago? I haven't had ONE virus. (Bet you come back and say, "Not one that you've found").
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Technicly possible that you got a virus, but lets asume you are correct.
UAC has become better since its first incarnation in vista. I am of course asuming you use a fully updated windows. (without SP a uac is infact a lil overdoing it).
The security rights problem you had is odd. Havent experienced this on any computer I saw and thats quite a amount actually.
But I can accept old & badly coded stuff may behave... odd.
uac will stop much of what is trying to hook itself onto a kernal process as a limited user simply doesnt have access.
On the virus im afraid you are wrong.
These days you can go to a news site which runs adds to help keep cost down. Now it happened a lot already that the add services were hacked & the adds supplying malware. So just visiting the site would be plenty.
Technicly visiting a site is a user action, but id call the action legit.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Guess so Ghosthree3
Well I did START on topic. So back to that.
As I said back then.. even a non administrator must have full access to make dump file on his/her own programs.
So if I run limited user & want to make a crash dump of the ns2 I am running with techtool or task manager, it should allow me to.
If you can not @Kasharic, then something is defnately wrong. Which may perhaps be related to odd ns2 behavior.
I still get it with every single play session. Sometimes within a few minutes, sometimes after an hour or two. Mine never correspond with map changes, they just randomly occur in the round. Already tried everything I could think of... I tried multiple setting types (fullscreen vs borderless, lowest quality, etc.) and I updated my video drivers and VC++ 2012 redist (64 bit version) without luck. I've also tried verifying the game files, deleting the cache, and running the typical malware/virus scanners, defragging, and CCleaner-type programs. I run everything in admin, so it's not a permissions thing either.
I already sent a techsupport.exe dump via email, so I won't bother posting that here. Can anyone of authority mention whether it's beneficial to continue sending them in, or is one good enough? Since it happens with every session, I could potentially send a dozen+ each day.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited April 2013
After a one on one tutorial from @DC_Darkling on how to actually use my computer to create dump files that will hopefully be useful (thank you again for that, you were very helpful, and patient), When i crash next I'll have something to pass onto you guys.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
out of curiosity, is my crash dump useable/helpful? also, is it accessable? I've never really used Dropbox before so i'm not sure if passwords or anything like that are needed.
Seems Iron was spot on earlier found this is my log "Error: 6 memory leaks in 'ScreenEffectScript' (6600 bytes)"
I took a look at the dump out of curiosity. I don't work for UWE so there's not much I can do, but I did notice that you've also got something called "RocketDock" which is hooking into the game for some reason. I'd shut that down and see what happens.
Anyway, the crash is in a worker thread in Spark_Core.dll at offset 0x1013bdac (only UWE know what that means). That function leads to the VC runtime's abort() function, which generates the error message you see. Every other thread in the dump has been suspended and is waiting for you to click the OK button before terminating.
This means that the runtime itself is not at fault. Reinstalling it won't have any effect. Nothing much to say beyond that from my position.
Any idea whats causing my issues? anything I can do to try and prevent it from being an issue?
I've looked at this dump too. You have something called "PC Performance Manager" hooking into the game. Shut it down and see if there's any difference.
Your crash is also in a worker thread of Spark_Core.dll. The offset is 0x101b13a7 this time, but the difference could easily be down to the fact that the game received an update between your crash and SecretSpy's. Again, only UWE know what that offset means.
2. I uninstalled PC performance manager a long time ago. I destroyed what I thought was all traces of it... how do I access whats left and still causing problems? Task manager states that it is in the services tab but not in the processes or anywhere else... it also claims it is "stopped"
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
my knowhow of digging in dmp files is more basic hehe. But I did see some stacks with a wait on disk error @kasharic. No clue how often it happens (because I can imagine it will at times)
Also if its stopped, it shouldnt be running & attaching itself to any process.
There are a bunch of threads in ntdll!ZwRemoveIoCompletion, but that isn't a problem. Those threads are sitting in that function there when the game is running too. I expect that they only move from it when you're joining a server.
Comments
I do everything as limited user, got my pc fully updated (and work pc's also) and haven't logged into the actual admin account in months. It really is not needed.
A limited user should always have the rights to make dumps of processes running in its own usermode. Which if you are gaming is basicly what is happening.
If ANY user can not make a crash dump of there own NS2 it is time to reinstall windows as its gotten to a point where the standard non computer person is better of starting fresh rather then fixing the actual problems.
I doubt there would be more then 1.
If a user knows what he or she is doing, and is adequately paranoid, all uac provides is annoyance.
I wouldn't recommend it to everyone though obviously.
And there are plenty of times that lack of admin rights causes issues in a plethora of programs in my experience.
But thats my take ;-)
Ohoooh... Now you did it.
uac is not ment for administrators, its ment for limited users. You are, infact, using it wrong as a administrator.
Virusses, spyware and all the other crap these days is fast enough on modern pcs to do there work before any human can react. Working on a user account in essence means any possible crap you grab will be very able to nest itself in your OS.. fighting with your AV for system rights.
Paranoia will not cut it. (I am paranoid enough myself). These days you can get crap on legitimate sites by, for example, java exploits or adds. While you all have a smaller chance to get crap if you pay attention, its still there. Actually getting a virus will do far more damage under a administrator account.
A limited user + UAC gets, when you are just running games & programs, the uac popup....... never. Yes, never surely is a annoyance.
Windows updates can be easily configured to run under limited user, not prompting the uac.
Any other update which needs UAC happens around once a month. Most stuff these days runs as a service, again not prompting UAC.
Almost any game runs without administrator access or UAC. Most old games have more problems with stuff like DEP then write access.
Giving write access to a limited user on the game folder further limits the problem.
At the moment only one thing on my computer calls for UAC and thats java. Anything else is fully updated without it by services. I can run basicly any program or game I want, only stuff which interacts deep with the system like debuggers actually prompt me.
If I get a virus it must either:
* use a 0 day to bypass limited user. (As I run emet this reduces the chance on 0 days even further)
* get manually accepted by me to be installed.
* is simply running under the user profile & rights only.
* Point 1 is still safer then having all virusses instead of just 0 days.
* point 2 isnt needed if you run as admin.
* point 3 is fixed in a few minutes by either a new user or by the AV successfully crushing it as the virus can not possibly run as system.
And all that shiny protection for just 1 UAC popup a months.. Yes, a real annoyance.
If you get swamped by UAC prompts you are doing something very wrong with your windows setup.
it can have any extension or even hook itself into a process. Actually, a lot of viruses these days do hide themselves as temp files. You shall not notice with a firewall if it hooks itself onto a browser.
You stated no real reason why a limited account is crap.
* you can run almost any program or game on it effortlessly.
* you need to perhaps uac prompt it what.. 3 times a month unless you install loads. (and why on earth would you do that?)
Your only counter argument is paying attention = no virus which is wrong.
Many viruses are not picked up by a lot of AV scanners. (we had a run here in NL with a so called police virus which just will not be detected by so many)
Many run within valid executables.
Many will call upon 'temp' files to disguise them from the running list.
Many will hook themselves into system files, since you are running as admin, thus further limiting your blocking chance. (Good luck blocking one hooking itself to svchost.exe for example, as that one needs internet access)
As far as why a limited account is crap? I ran into SOOO many restricted access bs over the years (not just uac, I mean complete denial of access) that I finally just said, fuck it, I'll use the unrestricted account. Because I HATE changing account just to be able to USE MY COMPUTER.
EDIT: In theory you don't even need an AV if you're careful enough.
Also, since using the admin account (actually since using win7 tbh) which must be what...2-3 years ago? I haven't had ONE virus. (Bet you come back and say, "Not one that you've found").
UAC has become better since its first incarnation in vista. I am of course asuming you use a fully updated windows.
The security rights problem you had is odd. Havent experienced this on any computer I saw and thats quite a amount actually.
But I can accept old & badly coded stuff may behave... odd.
uac will stop much of what is trying to hook itself onto a kernal process as a limited user simply doesnt have access.
On the virus im afraid you are wrong.
These days you can go to a news site which runs adds to help keep cost down. Now it happened a lot already that the add services were hacked & the adds supplying malware. So just visiting the site would be plenty.
Technicly visiting a site is a user action, but id call the action legit.
Well I did START on topic. So back to that.
As I said back then.. even a non administrator must have full access to make dump file on his/her own programs.
So if I run limited user & want to make a crash dump of the ns2 I am running with techtool or task manager, it should allow me to.
If you can not @Kasharic, then something is defnately wrong. Which may perhaps be related to odd ns2 behavior.
I already sent a techsupport.exe dump via email, so I won't bother posting that here. Can anyone of authority mention whether it's beneficial to continue sending them in, or is one good enough? Since it happens with every session, I could potentially send a dozen+ each day.
It's an issue with particle effects and Max has the dump ;-)
That didn't take long to happen...
now how do I upload these things... I'm assuming they are too large to upload direct (1.20gig)
Runtime error strikes again!
Here is the dump: tech_support.zip
Seems Iron was spot on earlier found this is my log "Error: 6 memory leaks in 'ScreenEffectScript' (6600 bytes)"
Useful? Well I aint a dev so I cant say
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t83o503f4zc706m/NS2_130505_002424.dmp?v=0mwng
*EDIT*
Any idea whats causing my issues? anything I can do to try and prevent it from being an issue?
Anyway, the crash is in a worker thread in Spark_Core.dll at offset 0x1013bdac (only UWE know what that means). That function leads to the VC runtime's abort() function, which generates the error message you see. Every other thread in the dump has been suspended and is waiting for you to click the OK button before terminating.
This means that the runtime itself is not at fault. Reinstalling it won't have any effect. Nothing much to say beyond that from my position.
I've looked at this dump too. You have something called "PC Performance Manager" hooking into the game. Shut it down and see if there's any difference.
Your crash is also in a worker thread of Spark_Core.dll. The offset is 0x101b13a7 this time, but the difference could easily be down to the fact that the game received an update between your crash and SecretSpy's. Again, only UWE know what that offset means.
1. a dumpfile
2. I uninstalled PC performance manager a long time ago. I destroyed what I thought was all traces of it... how do I access whats left and still causing problems? Task manager states that it is in the services tab but not in the processes or anywhere else... it also claims it is "stopped"
Once you've sorted that out, restart and delete C:\ProgramData\PC Performance Manager\.
But I did see some stacks with a wait on disk error @kasharic.
No clue how often it happens (because I can imagine it will at times)
Also if its stopped, it shouldnt be running & attaching itself to any process.