A robotics factory is now required to research mines? With the reduction to both the mine research and the robo lab the price is effectively the same, but what is the reason for promoting an early robotics factory?
The Robotics Factory is quite essential now in general. You also need it for Power Surge and Exos. That also means that you lose a lot of stuff if all your Robotic Factories get taken out.
A robotics factory is now required to research mines? With the reduction to both the mine research and the robo lab the price is effectively the same, but what is the reason for promoting an early robotics factory?
More potential for robo lab tech in the early/mid-game is a good thing IMO. In live it's basically just a noob trap.
The Robotics Factory is quite essential now in general. You also need it for Power Surge and Exos. That also means that you lose a lot of stuff if all your Robotic Factories get taken out.
Why would you ever use the version of the exo that's in BT? It's even less viable than the live version as far as I can tell... but I do really like the speed boost. I haven't scrimmed with the BT mod though so maybe with an actual organized team they wouldn't be so bad.
After some more extensive testing of the mod, I've come to really like the new fade changes. You can get around the map much faster, but it'll take all your energy to do so. The new shadowstep is also even better in combat than the old one imo.
I still miss the feeling of moving around the map with the old shadow step though. It was actually kind of relaxing, like skiing in tribes is. The new blink + bhop mechanic just feels kind of spastic, but I guess maybe with time it'll become as effortless as shadowstep was. Just figured out today that if you're holding crouch then press and hold blink it makes gaining speed super easy.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2013
While overall, balance mod does improve alien movement, it feels as if almost every alien has caught Bunny Fever.
Even gorges and Onos are encouraged to travel by hopping to maintain max speed... (Although Onos movement feels just a little too slippery.) That seems is a little too much for me, considering suspenseful atmosphere is a selling point of NS2.
I still really dislike the new movement system. Outside of the Skulk, the old movement system is fine. This mod feels like it is changing the entire movement system and forcing everyone to relearn it just because the Skulk movement sucks.
Alrighty, I did a search and it doesn't seem like anyone has brought it up. Echoing gorge tunnels works off infestation. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate the implications of this and judging by the changelog, I assume its a bug.
I've started messing around a lot more in BT and there are a ton of elements I like. But there are some things that still feel a bit out of place/ just plain odd. The new Exos are one, they may cost less, but now they're worth-less... A dual exo in current can at least make an onos think twice about engaging. In BT they're just plain flimsy. They're more of a liability than anything. Moving faster and boost are cool and all, but I think something like a siege mode would fit more with how an Exo is supposed to work.
The Biomass system and modular upgrades are excellent. Early bile might be a bit OP but I've not really played many actual games of BT.
Single crag healing limit is underwhelming. Having to camp out next to a single crag to heal up after engagements takes forever.
Having to have a robo to get mines is iffy. Mines are one of the best base defenders out there and having to invest in another building at the start of a round to get them is less than ideal.
New movement system. Well. Its new. And no matter how many people and arguments go up to defend it, there will be a lot of people who have invested a lot of time into mastering the old movement system who will be miffed that they have to start at level one all over again. The new system isn't any more intuitive than the old one. Personally, I don't think there was anything wrong with the old movement. Mind you, I wasn't affected by the recent pistol change either so take my two cents or leave it.
New drifter micro is interesting to say the least. It definitely makes Khamm more demanding. But with how fast people can get on their own, is stuff like storm really necessary? I mean, you got rid of EMP, but added some other niche tiny micro thing?
Whips not even slightly countering grenades is undesirable IMO. Whips are now half as functional as they used to be and people rarely used whips then.
New fade movement being so reliant on blinking means that the visual effect for blink should get toned down. Flashing back and forth between purple and green and purple and green hurts.
That's all I got for now but I'll pay more close attention to this thread from now on. As it is now any time I mention BT I hear groans. That's not a good sign if these things are going to be implemented.
Having to have a robo to get mines is iffy. Mines are one of the best base defenders out there and having to invest in another building at the start of a round to get them is less than ideal.
This.
Mines should be available at roughly the same time phase gates are up, at which time having a robo factory is viable literally zero percent of times.
Nerfed phase gate hp and armouries not healing armour already makes it much harder to hold phase gates. There's absolutely nothing that justifies the mines change.
The mine research cost was lowered to compensate so I don't really see the problem. This also means it'll be viable to get one or two MAC's early on which will help you hold those phase gates.
Yeah, I just tested it again. A Robo Factory makes mines available, so you basically get a free RF and there's no reason not to get one early. In fact, it encourages getting one early. I like it.
fyi to all, unfortunately as I thought might happen they have now gimped movement in bt mod.
You can no where get speeds like this video anymore. There is a deacceleration when bhopping on the ground of about 0.5 per touch, so far doing these same routes I can only get to speed 14 chaining multiple walljumps for it to go back to speed 10-11 withom 2 seconds of hitting the ground.
I personally find it quite useless now To travel that fast (speed 10-11) and still have to go in a straight line is very frustrating after seeing its potential. Celerity also sees nearly no benefits as well due to bleeding speed when bhopping.
@Sewlek
Put an artificial cap on speed of 14-16, but allow us to keep the speed bhopping and not drain off when touching the ground.
Yeah, I just tested it again. A Robo Factory makes mines available, so you basically get a free RF and there's no reason not to get one early. In fact, it encourages getting one early. I like it.
See thing is, now its a building to be built, rather than a research to be researched. Its a small difference sure, but for smaller teams that's one person not doing anything else in the field or the comm out of the chair for another period of time.
I guess its just different. The only increase in cost is a small amount of time, which I suppose isn't too terrible.
The mine research cost was lowered to compensate so I don't really see the problem. This also means it'll be viable to get one or two MAC's early on which will help you hold those phase gates.
At least that's the theory...
And justify not lowering the cost of welders despite the direct economical nerf it has on marines, i'm guessing, based on chats outside of this thread.
But here's where i have a problem with this approach:
Macs are a poor substitute for a marine with a welder
Macs get in the way, blocking LOS during heavy combat without the ability to return fire, (unlike a player)
They focus on one subject at a time
They are multitudes more fragile
They are more costly economically. 3 or 5 pres welders are cheaper in a 8 man team than than a Mac is in tres
They are also less mobile, since you can buy welders at forward armories, instantly
They can't be picked up again like welders
Biggest of all: They are dependent on the decision of one player.
Mac is a very poor substitute.
Should Lower the cost of welders, not force early robo awkwardly.
The mine research cost was lowered to compensate so I don't really see the problem. This also means it'll be viable to get one or two MAC's early on which will help you hold those phase gates.
At least that's the theory...
And justify not lowering the cost of welders despite the direct economical nerf it has on marines, i'm guessing, based on chats outside of this thread.
But here's where i have a problem with this approach:
Macs are a poor substitute for a marine with a welder
Macs get in the way, blocking LOS during heavy combat without the ability to return fire, (unlike a player)
They focus on one subject at a time
They are multitudes more fragile
They are more costly economically. 3 or 5 pres welders are cheaper in a 8 man team than than a Mac is in tres
They are also less mobile, since you can buy welders at forward armories, instantly
They can't be picked up again like welders
Biggest of all: They are dependent on the decision of one player.
Mac is a very poor substitute.
Should Lower the cost of welders, not force early robo awkwardly.
That theory is countered by testing experience showing that a team that is supported by a MAC has a much higher chance of survival at the front lines and during combat. MACs are a straight upgrade for any group of marines since they basically allow them to take 2-3 additional bites. They may block LoS a bit, but they can also take bites that would otherwise have gone for the marine.
The Robotics Factory is quite essential now in general. You also need it for Power Surge and Exos. That also means that you lose a lot of stuff if all your Robotic Factories get taken out.
Why would you ever use the version of the exo that's in BT? It's even less viable than the live version as far as I can tell... but I do really like the speed boost. I haven't scrimmed with the BT mod though so maybe with an actual organized team they wouldn't be so bad.
Because it's cheap. Minigun and Railgun variants cost just 5 res more than a Shotgun. They are basically supposed to be on par with a Lerk's impact on the alien side. The Dual Minigun costs 50 res and is thus more on par with Fades. It will still go down to a swarm of Skulks if not supported, but so does a Fade against a swarm of marines.
The Robotics Factory is quite essential now in general. You also need it for Power Surge and Exos. That also means that you lose a lot of stuff if all your Robotic Factories get taken out.
Why would you ever use the version of the exo that's in BT? It's even less viable than the live version as far as I can tell... but I do really like the speed boost. I haven't scrimmed with the BT mod though so maybe with an actual organized team they wouldn't be so bad.
Because it's cheap. Minigun and Railgun variants cost just 5 res more than a Shotgun. They are basically supposed to be on par with a Lerk's impact on the alien side. The Dual Minigun costs 50 res and is thus more on par with Fades. It will still go down to a swarm of Skulks if not supported, but so does a Fade against a swarm of marines.
I understand the concept behind it, I just don't think it's going to work out I mean it's really hard to talk about this without making assumptions since it's hard to really put THAT much time in, but exos don't seem like they're a fair match for a lerk even (the lerk is probably going to win since a3 isn't even going to be up yet).. And I think it's like ~5 swipes from a fade to take out an A3 exo? And the exo can't get medded... in practice I think it will still be less viable than a marine with a shotgun. I think the current speed of the exo is in line with what it should have always been, but I think the armor needs to get boosted up to what it was before otherwise there's gonna be no point.
I realize that in pubs that could be a disaster since people love to exo rush and run around the map with 10 exos or whatever, but that's going to be a problem no matter what.. increasing the cost and armor back in line with what it used to be while keeping the speed and damage output that's in the BT mod I think would be fine. You could still allow them to be researched early or whatever, too. It would force people to avoid buying any mines/welders/shotguns.. which I think is sort of another way to balance it. You can choose to be less effective early game to be more effective late game. But the current version of the exo is just way too weak imo.
Do we have confirmation yet that the BT is going live? I hated it at first but it's grown on me a lot over the past week, and now I'm getting kind of attached to it lol I'd hate to learn it and then have to go back to playing vanilla forever.
That theory is countered by testing experience showing that a team that is supported by a MAC has a much higher chance of survival at the front lines and during combat. MACs are a straight upgrade for any group of marines since they basically allow them to take 2-3 additional bites. They may block LoS a bit, but they can also take bites that would otherwise have gone for the marine.
A) I didn't say a team supported by a mac doesn't have a higher chance of survival. I said MACs are poor substitutes for marines with welders. I don't believe a skulk would ever target a MAC to kill first, over a marine with a rifle. That's a L2P issue, otherwise. So if you're saying that happens on accident, well that would have been a miss anyways since a MAC can't block player movement and the marine was not in that space. And so i can't really see Line Of Sight to your target being compromised - along with everything else i posted as reasons for being a poor substitute - as being outweighed by the benefit that comes from 1 bite's worth of damage to a mac that would have otherwise just have been a plain miss??
possibly increasing the skulks aircontrol a little bit? might offset the speed nerf and make the skulk a bit better in the engagements and allow him to chain walljumps a bit better?
I think the atmospherics on exo weapons should be toned down a bit now that they're weaker. I've seen too many dualies get wrecked by a single skulk at their feet - that's just not a fun gameplay experience for the average player.
Ok I have new opinions on the new Balance mod, I vote for it to be off the server until it is integrated into the main game. Some of the changes are Awesome
Aliens:
Camo working only mostly, slight shimmer instead of completely invisible. LOVE IT!
Gorge healing faster and Onos being slightly weaker. LOVE IT.
Skulks moving faster on creep, and a bigger boost from celerity. LOVE IT.
Marines:
Shotguns do less dmg, modified spread (long distance kills) personally I think this should be a choice upgrade from the armory when buying a shotgun eg. Slug shotgun (concentrate pelts) Buckshot shotgun (normal spread) either way I enjoy it.
Need robot-factory for Exos. Makes sense!
Mines researched when robot-factory is built. Cool!
Armory gives both Flame and Grenade launches as 1 expensive upgrade. LOVE IT! (I hate choosing as a commander)
Exo's are weaker and REQUIRE the welding of team mates, 1 Exo can still not solo an Onos (nor should it be able to)
Welders are immediately researched (even though they still require 4 pres)
Where the mod goes wrong and breaks the balance.
Aliens:
All structures build at 50% rate (aliens are already at a detriment when building as marines can build almost instantly where as aliens need to wait for the structures to build (this is perfectly balances as aliens don't need anyone to build) now drifters are needed to build all structures at a normal (still slower pace))
Fade no double jump puts the fade at gun level (bleh), Shadow Step no longer gives momentum =slower fade = dead fade. Shadow step is now the equivalent of listing lazily to the left. Not hard to track a fade like that. New fade = dead fade unless they are in a big group of fades and not up against a JP shot gunner!
Skulks jumping mechanics, as said above they are changed, therefore lowering the skill level of alot of people, I consistently find my self grabbing off of walls and ceilings when I expect to be dropping on a Marines head. (This may just require some more practice. Personally I think why fix whats not broken.)
BioMass for aliens: vs. TechMass for Marines
OK this is gonna be a long one, so please bear with me!
I'll start with Marines because its shorter, Marines barely need TechMass it allows more structures to be built (yay) and allows Marines to purchase more Exo's and Jetpack's (that is an entirely different thing). When a Com Chair gets destroyed no biggie, Armor, Health and dmg are unaffected. Big whoop you can't buy Jetpacks or Exos because the com and still drop them for you without fail.
ALIENS!!! So in order for the aliens to get upgrades you need to drop multiple structures, neat. Thumbs UP! But in order for Aliens to deal with their upgraded opponents they have to have more health, ALSO NEAT! In order to get more health you need BioMass, in order to get BioMass you need to upgrade the hive (very expensive but defintily worth it) increased BioMass = healthier Aliens = longer lifespan = more kills! NEAT!
Now why this is broken. Again I feel that whats not broken should not be fixed.
in the normal game, Aliens lose a hive they lose upgrades. Marines lose a hive they lose exos and JP's Awesome! Asymmetrical warfare! AGAIN AWESOME!!!
This Balance Mod, Aliens lose a hive they lose upgrades due to BioMass and BioMass = health = etc. etc. You get the idea. Once the Aliens get put on their backfoot it is next to impossible to recover. Lose a hive lose the game, you get weaker and they keep getting stronger. Marines lose a hive, who cares?! No tech is revoked, no upgrades lost. Where is the "Balance" in this Balance mod? Aliens get slapped with loads of loss and very expensive gains (If a hive gets killed, lose 3 upgrades worth of BioMass plus the upgrades that BioMass earns you, when you redrop the hive you need to repurchase said BioMass for the hive as its a new structure.)
JP's for Marines love the idea behind being able to further upgrade the Jetpacks, I think that this update may have gone a bit too far. Jetpack Grenade Launchers are now the ideal build to destroy a hive as whips no longer throw grenades back (but do kill Exos easily, AWESOME!) which again unbalances the matches again, grenades have no tit-to-their-tat. Jetpack Marines are also next to impossible to catch, a celerity Lerk can barely outrun a JP Marine, and the res difference is staggering between those units. I like the idea of more fuel or faster take of but definitely not both, it can make a decent marine basically Invincible. Once an entire team (or majority) can purchase Jetpacks if you don't have res superiority you are screwed, its now time for a slow decline to failure, regardless of teamwork and upgrades as every push you make will be countered and taking an additional tech point and holding it to completion is all but impossible.
So to sum it up, if aliens can push unopposed and continue taking ground hand over fist, they will WIN! (No big surprise) If they get pushed backwards by aggressive marines (should happen most of the time, Aliens get CRUSHED.)
Marines, need to push and hold a couple locations keep hitting alien res and get upgrades early! (play half defensively and partly aggressively Marines Win, again no big surprise!) Marines lose a second hive but have great communication and teamwork, no biggie upgrade Jetpacks and push outwards in a big way, knock a hive down and the game is yours!
This is not a balanced game anymore. The "balance mod" favors marines for upgrades, cripples aliens in the same. When a CC is lost Marines lose NOTHING, when a Hive is lost Aliens lose everything.
My vote is to have a lot more people focus on getting this Balance Mod properly Balanced before this is implemented into the regular game. If this is what NS2 is going to become, I will make a mod to put all the original settings back as of build 248 and only play on servers that run that. Its changing NS2 from "A game of Chess with guns!" to "A game of Checkers with an opponent with broken hands."
Ok I have new opinions on the new Balance mod, I vote for it to be off the server until it is integrated into the main game. Some of the changes are Awesome
Aliens:
Camo working only mostly, slight shimmer instead of completely invisible. LOVE IT!
Gorge healing faster and Onos being slightly weaker. LOVE IT.
Skulks moving faster on creep, and a bigger boost from celerity. LOVE IT.
Marines:
Shotguns do less dmg, modified spread (long distance kills) personally I think this should be a choice upgrade from the armory when buying a shotgun eg. Slug shotgun (concentrate pelts) Buckshot shotgun (normal spread) either way I enjoy it.
Need robot-factory for Exos. Makes sense!
Mines researched when robot-factory is built. Cool!
Armory gives both Flame and Grenade launches as 1 expensive upgrade. LOVE IT! (I hate choosing as a commander)
Exo's are weaker and REQUIRE the welding of team mates, 1 Exo can still not solo an Onos (nor should it be able to)
Welders are immediately researched (even though they still require 4 pres)
Where the mod goes wrong and breaks the balance.
Aliens:
All structures build at 50% rate (aliens are already at a detriment when building as marines can build almost instantly where as aliens need to wait for the structures to build (this is perfectly balances as aliens don't need anyone to build) now drifters are needed to build all structures at a normal (still slower pace))
Fade no double jump puts the fade at gun level (bleh), Shadow Step no longer gives momentum =slower fade = dead fade. Shadow step is now the equivalent of listing lazily to the left. Not hard to track a fade like that. New fade = dead fade unless they are in a big group of fades and not up against a JP shot gunner!
Skulks jumping mechanics, as said above they are changed, therefore lowering the skill level of alot of people, I consistently find my self grabbing off of walls and ceilings when I expect to be dropping on a Marines head. (This may just require some more practice. Personally I think why fix whats not broken.)
BioMass for aliens: vs. TechMass for Marines
OK this is gonna be a long one, so please bear with me!
I'll start with Marines because its shorter, Marines barely need TechMass it allows more structures to be built (yay) and allows Marines to purchase more Exo's and Jetpack's (that is an entirely different thing). When a Com Chair gets destroyed no biggie, Armor, Health and dmg are unaffected. Big whoop you can't buy Jetpacks or Exos because the com and still drop them for you without fail.
ALIENS!!! So in order for the aliens to get upgrades you need to drop multiple structures, neat. Thumbs UP! But in order for Aliens to deal with their upgraded opponents they have to have more health, ALSO NEAT! In order to get more health you need BioMass, in order to get BioMass you need to upgrade the hive (very expensive but defintily worth it) increased BioMass = healthier Aliens = longer lifespan = more kills! NEAT!
Now why this is broken. Again I feel that whats not broken should not be fixed.
in the normal game, Aliens lose a hive they lose upgrades. Marines lose a hive they lose exos and JP's Awesome! Asymmetrical warfare! AGAIN AWESOME!!!
This Balance Mod, Aliens lose a hive they lose upgrades due to BioMass and BioMass = health = etc. etc. You get the idea. Once the Aliens get put on their backfoot it is next to impossible to recover. Lose a hive lose the game, you get weaker and they keep getting stronger. Marines lose a hive, who cares?! No tech is revoked, no upgrades lost. Where is the "Balance" in this Balance mod? Aliens get slapped with loads of loss and very expensive gains (If a hive gets killed, lose 3 upgrades worth of BioMass plus the upgrades that BioMass earns you, when you redrop the hive you need to repurchase said BioMass for the hive as its a new structure.)
JP's for Marines love the idea behind being able to further upgrade the Jetpacks, I think that this update may have gone a bit too far. Jetpack Grenade Launchers are now the ideal build to destroy a hive as whips no longer throw grenades back (but do kill Exos easily, AWESOME!) which again unbalances the matches again, grenades have no tit-to-their-tat. Jetpack Marines are also next to impossible to catch, a celerity Lerk can barely outrun a JP Marine, and the res difference is staggering between those units. I like the idea of more fuel or faster take of but definitely not both, it can make a decent marine basically Invincible. Once an entire team (or majority) can purchase Jetpacks if you don't have res superiority you are screwed, its now time for a slow decline to failure, regardless of teamwork and upgrades as every push you make will be countered and taking an additional tech point and holding it to completion is all but impossible.
So to sum it up, if aliens can push unopposed and continue taking ground hand over fist, they will WIN! (No big surprise) If they get pushed backwards by aggressive marines (should happen most of the time, Aliens get CRUSHED.)
Marines, need to push and hold a couple locations keep hitting alien res and get upgrades early! (play half defensively and partly aggressively Marines Win, again no big surprise!) Marines lose a second hive but have great communication and teamwork, no biggie upgrade Jetpacks and push outwards in a big way, knock a hive down and the game is yours!
This is not a balanced game anymore. The "balance mod" favors marines for upgrades, cripples aliens in the same. When a CC is lost Marines lose NOTHING, when a Hive is lost Aliens lose everything.
My vote is to have a lot more people focus on getting this Balance Mod properly Balanced before this is implemented into the regular game. If this is what NS2 is going to become, I will make a mod to put all the original settings back as of build 248 and only play on servers that run that. Its changing NS2 from "A game of Chess with guns!" to "A game of Checkers with an opponent with broken hands."
thoughts?
-Montyp
Aside from your views on camo I agree with a lot of what you have said, camo needs to be 100% invisible or it is useless...played long enough in the beta with a camo that still left you visible...meant it was always 3rd hive.
If the requirement for a comm that scans is an issue...allow a personal hand held scanner that shows up circles on alien players withn x metres of the user.
Gimping the camo effectiveness simple means we wont see it used until mid-late game...when its useless anyway due to prevelance of Obs (which hard counter camo)
The comments about the balance mod generally favouring marines I agree with, the only thing in teh BT mod I do like is the biomass...but more because aliens need to scale...having it linked ot hives I see as an issue (as marines armour and weapons are not limited to tech points...align that I will be happy).
Aliens already get stung with costly upgrades that once destroyed are lost (yet marines can pick up those GL's FT'ers and SG's from fallen comrades).
The requirement for a 2nd CC for JP's and exo's was only a late addition during the beta...and was long overdue when it finally came in, removing it simply destroys pub balance.
Allowing marines to build on infestation and the power surge features are not needed and remove the impact/influence of two key game features (power sockets and infestation).
The fact that the comp scene plays with players sizes far below what most pub games are played at is a big part of the issue.
Aliens are much more powerful in 6v6 games than 12v12, the balance test mod seems to be aimed more at the comp scene than at general pub gameplay.
I dont think anyone disputes that lower player counts help aliens....problem is that UWE have said they intended for NS2 to be played with higher player counts than NS1, which means these 24 player servers some see as an evil aboration on the game are here to stay.
The fact that they are often full should show what the playing public wants (as its not like they only fill up after the 12, 14 or 16 player servers are all full), the game changes massively with higher player counts...shifting the balnce towards marines who can move in groups of 3 or more and more easily take territory early game.
I just hope that the BT is very much just a "spitball" and very little of the changes in there make it in....or that they are put into a comp mode (seeing as the comp scene does not want/cant run comps with higher player numbers).
If the comp scene was 12v12 I think we would see a significanlty different range of proposed changes.
Camo is combined with Silence again, it's hardly useless...
I might as well be 100% visible if I am 10% visible.
When I am sitting on the roof I am not moving...so being silent doesn't really help as I am not making any noise when I am not moving.
The old camo (100% invisible at slow speeds) and silence worked fine, no real need to merge them and nerf the camo side.
Buffing silence to add a level of camo was not needed, choosing silence or camo was a good trade off.
Comments
More potential for robo lab tech in the early/mid-game is a good thing IMO. In live it's basically just a noob trap.
Why would you ever use the version of the exo that's in BT? It's even less viable than the live version as far as I can tell... but I do really like the speed boost. I haven't scrimmed with the BT mod though so maybe with an actual organized team they wouldn't be so bad.
After some more extensive testing of the mod, I've come to really like the new fade changes. You can get around the map much faster, but it'll take all your energy to do so. The new shadowstep is also even better in combat than the old one imo.
I still miss the feeling of moving around the map with the old shadow step though. It was actually kind of relaxing, like skiing in tribes is. The new blink + bhop mechanic just feels kind of spastic, but I guess maybe with time it'll become as effortless as shadowstep was. Just figured out today that if you're holding crouch then press and hold blink it makes gaining speed super easy.
Even gorges and Onos are encouraged to travel by hopping to maintain max speed... (Although Onos movement feels just a little too slippery.) That seems is a little too much for me, considering suspenseful atmosphere is a selling point of NS2.
I've started messing around a lot more in BT and there are a ton of elements I like. But there are some things that still feel a bit out of place/ just plain odd. The new Exos are one, they may cost less, but now they're worth-less... A dual exo in current can at least make an onos think twice about engaging. In BT they're just plain flimsy. They're more of a liability than anything. Moving faster and boost are cool and all, but I think something like a siege mode would fit more with how an Exo is supposed to work.
The Biomass system and modular upgrades are excellent. Early bile might be a bit OP but I've not really played many actual games of BT.
Single crag healing limit is underwhelming. Having to camp out next to a single crag to heal up after engagements takes forever.
Having to have a robo to get mines is iffy. Mines are one of the best base defenders out there and having to invest in another building at the start of a round to get them is less than ideal.
New movement system. Well. Its new. And no matter how many people and arguments go up to defend it, there will be a lot of people who have invested a lot of time into mastering the old movement system who will be miffed that they have to start at level one all over again. The new system isn't any more intuitive than the old one. Personally, I don't think there was anything wrong with the old movement. Mind you, I wasn't affected by the recent pistol change either so take my two cents or leave it.
New drifter micro is interesting to say the least. It definitely makes Khamm more demanding. But with how fast people can get on their own, is stuff like storm really necessary? I mean, you got rid of EMP, but added some other niche tiny micro thing?
Whips not even slightly countering grenades is undesirable IMO. Whips are now half as functional as they used to be and people rarely used whips then.
New fade movement being so reliant on blinking means that the visual effect for blink should get toned down. Flashing back and forth between purple and green and purple and green hurts.
That's all I got for now but I'll pay more close attention to this thread from now on. As it is now any time I mention BT I hear groans. That's not a good sign if these things are going to be implemented.
Mines should be available at roughly the same time phase gates are up, at which time having a robo factory is viable literally zero percent of times.
Nerfed phase gate hp and armouries not healing armour already makes it much harder to hold phase gates. There's absolutely nothing that justifies the mines change.
edit: see below
At least that's the theory...
Please don't overnerf skulk movement
I guess its just different. The only increase in cost is a small amount of time, which I suppose isn't too terrible.
But here's where i have a problem with this approach:
Macs are a poor substitute for a marine with a welder
Macs get in the way, blocking LOS during heavy combat without the ability to return fire, (unlike a player)
They focus on one subject at a time
They are multitudes more fragile
They are more costly economically. 3 or 5 pres welders are cheaper in a 8 man team than than a Mac is in tres
They are also less mobile, since you can buy welders at forward armories, instantly
They can't be picked up again like welders
Biggest of all: They are dependent on the decision of one player.
Mac is a very poor substitute.
Should Lower the cost of welders, not force early robo awkwardly.
That theory is countered by testing experience showing that a team that is supported by a MAC has a much higher chance of survival at the front lines and during combat. MACs are a straight upgrade for any group of marines since they basically allow them to take 2-3 additional bites. They may block LoS a bit, but they can also take bites that would otherwise have gone for the marine.
Because it's cheap. Minigun and Railgun variants cost just 5 res more than a Shotgun. They are basically supposed to be on par with a Lerk's impact on the alien side. The Dual Minigun costs 50 res and is thus more on par with Fades. It will still go down to a swarm of Skulks if not supported, but so does a Fade against a swarm of marines.
I understand the concept behind it, I just don't think it's going to work out
I realize that in pubs that could be a disaster since people love to exo rush and run around the map with 10 exos or whatever, but that's going to be a problem no matter what.. increasing the cost and armor back in line with what it used to be while keeping the speed and damage output that's in the BT mod I think would be fine. You could still allow them to be researched early or whatever, too. It would force people to avoid buying any mines/welders/shotguns.. which I think is sort of another way to balance it. You can choose to be less effective early game to be more effective late game. But the current version of the exo is just way too weak imo.
Do we have confirmation yet that the BT is going live? I hated it at first but it's grown on me a lot over the past week, and now I'm getting kind of attached to it lol I'd hate to learn it and then have to go back to playing vanilla forever.
After the balance test tournament, however don't expect every change to make it, and I'm not a reliable source!
Aliens:
Camo working only mostly, slight shimmer instead of completely invisible. LOVE IT!
Gorge healing faster and Onos being slightly weaker. LOVE IT.
Skulks moving faster on creep, and a bigger boost from celerity. LOVE IT.
Marines:
Shotguns do less dmg, modified spread (long distance kills) personally I think this should be a choice upgrade from the armory when buying a shotgun eg. Slug shotgun (concentrate pelts) Buckshot shotgun (normal spread) either way I enjoy it.
Need robot-factory for Exos. Makes sense!
Mines researched when robot-factory is built. Cool!
Armory gives both Flame and Grenade launches as 1 expensive upgrade. LOVE IT! (I hate choosing as a commander)
Exo's are weaker and REQUIRE the welding of team mates, 1 Exo can still not solo an Onos (nor should it be able to)
Welders are immediately researched (even though they still require 4 pres)
Where the mod goes wrong and breaks the balance.
Aliens:
All structures build at 50% rate (aliens are already at a detriment when building as marines can build almost instantly where as aliens need to wait for the structures to build (this is perfectly balances as aliens don't need anyone to build) now drifters are needed to build all structures at a normal (still slower pace))
Fade no double jump puts the fade at gun level (bleh), Shadow Step no longer gives momentum =slower fade = dead fade. Shadow step is now the equivalent of listing lazily to the left. Not hard to track a fade like that. New fade = dead fade unless they are in a big group of fades and not up against a JP shot gunner!
Skulks jumping mechanics, as said above they are changed, therefore lowering the skill level of alot of people, I consistently find my self grabbing off of walls and ceilings when I expect to be dropping on a Marines head. (This may just require some more practice. Personally I think why fix whats not broken.)
BioMass for aliens: vs. TechMass for Marines
OK this is gonna be a long one, so please bear with me!
I'll start with Marines because its shorter, Marines barely need TechMass it allows more structures to be built (yay) and allows Marines to purchase more Exo's and Jetpack's (that is an entirely different thing). When a Com Chair gets destroyed no biggie, Armor, Health and dmg are unaffected. Big whoop you can't buy Jetpacks or Exos because the com and still drop them for you without fail.
ALIENS!!! So in order for the aliens to get upgrades you need to drop multiple structures, neat. Thumbs UP! But in order for Aliens to deal with their upgraded opponents they have to have more health, ALSO NEAT! In order to get more health you need BioMass, in order to get BioMass you need to upgrade the hive (very expensive but defintily worth it) increased BioMass = healthier Aliens = longer lifespan = more kills! NEAT!
Now why this is broken. Again I feel that whats not broken should not be fixed.
in the normal game, Aliens lose a hive they lose upgrades. Marines lose a hive they lose exos and JP's Awesome! Asymmetrical warfare! AGAIN AWESOME!!!
This Balance Mod, Aliens lose a hive they lose upgrades due to BioMass and BioMass = health = etc. etc. You get the idea. Once the Aliens get put on their backfoot it is next to impossible to recover. Lose a hive lose the game, you get weaker and they keep getting stronger. Marines lose a hive, who cares?! No tech is revoked, no upgrades lost. Where is the "Balance" in this Balance mod? Aliens get slapped with loads of loss and very expensive gains (If a hive gets killed, lose 3 upgrades worth of BioMass plus the upgrades that BioMass earns you, when you redrop the hive you need to repurchase said BioMass for the hive as its a new structure.)
JP's for Marines love the idea behind being able to further upgrade the Jetpacks, I think that this update may have gone a bit too far. Jetpack Grenade Launchers are now the ideal build to destroy a hive as whips no longer throw grenades back (but do kill Exos easily, AWESOME!) which again unbalances the matches again, grenades have no tit-to-their-tat. Jetpack Marines are also next to impossible to catch, a celerity Lerk can barely outrun a JP Marine, and the res difference is staggering between those units. I like the idea of more fuel or faster take of but definitely not both, it can make a decent marine basically Invincible. Once an entire team (or majority) can purchase Jetpacks if you don't have res superiority you are screwed, its now time for a slow decline to failure, regardless of teamwork and upgrades as every push you make will be countered and taking an additional tech point and holding it to completion is all but impossible.
So to sum it up, if aliens can push unopposed and continue taking ground hand over fist, they will WIN! (No big surprise) If they get pushed backwards by aggressive marines (should happen most of the time, Aliens get CRUSHED.)
Marines, need to push and hold a couple locations keep hitting alien res and get upgrades early! (play half defensively and partly aggressively Marines Win, again no big surprise!) Marines lose a second hive but have great communication and teamwork, no biggie upgrade Jetpacks and push outwards in a big way, knock a hive down and the game is yours!
This is not a balanced game anymore. The "balance mod" favors marines for upgrades, cripples aliens in the same. When a CC is lost Marines lose NOTHING, when a Hive is lost Aliens lose everything.
My vote is to have a lot more people focus on getting this Balance Mod properly Balanced before this is implemented into the regular game. If this is what NS2 is going to become, I will make a mod to put all the original settings back as of build 248 and only play on servers that run that. Its changing NS2 from "A game of Chess with guns!" to "A game of Checkers with an opponent with broken hands."
thoughts?
-Montyp
Aside from your views on camo I agree with a lot of what you have said, camo needs to be 100% invisible or it is useless...played long enough in the beta with a camo that still left you visible...meant it was always 3rd hive.
If the requirement for a comm that scans is an issue...allow a personal hand held scanner that shows up circles on alien players withn x metres of the user.
Gimping the camo effectiveness simple means we wont see it used until mid-late game...when its useless anyway due to prevelance of Obs (which hard counter camo)
The comments about the balance mod generally favouring marines I agree with, the only thing in teh BT mod I do like is the biomass...but more because aliens need to scale...having it linked ot hives I see as an issue (as marines armour and weapons are not limited to tech points...align that I will be happy).
Aliens already get stung with costly upgrades that once destroyed are lost (yet marines can pick up those GL's FT'ers and SG's from fallen comrades).
The requirement for a 2nd CC for JP's and exo's was only a late addition during the beta...and was long overdue when it finally came in, removing it simply destroys pub balance.
Allowing marines to build on infestation and the power surge features are not needed and remove the impact/influence of two key game features (power sockets and infestation).
The fact that the comp scene plays with players sizes far below what most pub games are played at is a big part of the issue.
Aliens are much more powerful in 6v6 games than 12v12, the balance test mod seems to be aimed more at the comp scene than at general pub gameplay.
I dont think anyone disputes that lower player counts help aliens....problem is that UWE have said they intended for NS2 to be played with higher player counts than NS1, which means these 24 player servers some see as an evil aboration on the game are here to stay.
The fact that they are often full should show what the playing public wants (as its not like they only fill up after the 12, 14 or 16 player servers are all full), the game changes massively with higher player counts...shifting the balnce towards marines who can move in groups of 3 or more and more easily take territory early game.
I just hope that the BT is very much just a "spitball" and very little of the changes in there make it in....or that they are put into a comp mode (seeing as the comp scene does not want/cant run comps with higher player numbers).
If the comp scene was 12v12 I think we would see a significanlty different range of proposed changes.
I might as well be 100% visible if I am 10% visible.
When I am sitting on the roof I am not moving...so being silent doesn't really help as I am not making any noise when I am not moving.
The old camo (100% invisible at slow speeds) and silence worked fine, no real need to merge them and nerf the camo side.
Buffing silence to add a level of camo was not needed, choosing silence or camo was a good trade off.