I haven't played with it quite enough to do a full breakdown or anything, and the mod is changing constantly. Last time I tried it though, it seemed like every time you pressed blink it was taking a huge chunk of adrenaline, to the point where it wasn't really practical to travel around the map that way. It made it so you couldn't effectively travel quickly around the map and still have enough energy to safely engage marines. That would probably be fine if you could research shadowstep in order to travel around the map more efficiently, but shadowstep doesn't give you any momentum anymore so it doesn't really seem viable as a way to get around.
Granted I've probably only spent 30 minutes as fade in the balance test so I might just not know what I'm doing or something, but I have the bhop mechanic down and i'm still not being able to cruise around as quickly as I can in the vanilla build.
1. NS1: Moving around the map while maintaining energy took a large amount of skill, or atleast a large amount of mechanical practice... Combination of crouchbhop + blink + metabolize
2. NS2: Moving around the map while maintaining energy takes basically no skill, jump -> shadow step -> double jump. Shadow step / blink basically don't even affect energy levels, its stupid. This is due to the huge momentum shadow step provides and your ability to carry this to a large distance with double jump.
3. You are not meant to move around the map with blink, you are meant to tap blink to gain a suitable speed allowing you to attain a high speed of crouch bhop. Energy conservation is apart of the skill requirement.
NS2 live fade is basically easy mode. I can understand why everyone complaining about BT fade because it introduces a few needed things:
1. Fade movement is predictable now, primary movement mechanic has become trackable blink
2. Energy conservation is an important skill
3. The requirement to know how to perform pseudo-bhop + blink
FYI: I personally find the BT fade too easy due to the increased amount of movement options, but I played NS1 far to long so i'm probably just used to the mechanics required. I really have to make a video this weekend to show people dismissing the movement what is actually possible... Too many theory crafters writing off the mechanics without seeing what you can / can't do.
^ Another guy boasting about his accolades of doing better than average in pubs.
Fades are really good in vanilla, so are lerks yes. But why is it that they are being nerfed this badly.
Aliens don't get 50 p.res in a blink of an eye. One misstep and your chance to fade might be over. If you lose your fade you might lose the game, before you can accumulate another 50 p.res.
Marines have shotguns at a cost of 20 p.res. So you have 2.5 tries to kill a fade solo. I think that balance is fine.
^ Another guy boasting about his accolades of doing better than average in pubs.
Fades are really good in vanilla, so are lerks yes. But why is it that they are being nerfed this badly.
Aliens don't get 50 p.res in a blink of an eye. One misstep and your chance to fade might be over. If you lose your fade you might lose the game, before you can accumulate another 50 p.res.
Marines have shotguns at a cost of 20 p.res. So you have 2.5 tries to kill a fade solo. I think that balance is fine.
He is not boasting...sadly is he just good (I say sadly as I have had the displeasure of playing against him on many occasions...I have cursed mf more than any other player in aus).
I do agree with his final concession that he has perhaps played too much NS1 (I would argue he needs to play without a mouse...might balance things out a bit more ).
What I think is unsaid though is that there are a couple of people who are really good and then theres the other ~90% of the player base.
Having mechanics accessible to players at all level is difficult, the higher end want to be challenged...and the lower end just dont want to die within 2 minutes of evolving to a higher life form (after saving up those res).
Whilst I dont disagree with the attitude of people will learn to adapt...I dont believe most players (especially casual) will bother.
I played a fair bit of NS...never was a good fade then...after some ~800 or so hours of NS2 across the beta and since retail release I have concluded me going fade (against anyone but noobs) is a waste of 50 res...that I would be better spending on lerks, gorges or saving for onos.
Sure if I invested a large slab of my life to learning hte mechanics I will probably master them...but I dont want to invest that much time just to learn to play fade (took me long enough to be half decent as skulk, passable as lerk and onos).
The problem is that higher lifeforms are the SG's, GL's, FT's and exo's of the alien team...but unlike the afore mentioned weapons...there is very little difference in mechanics of these.
Whilst some see it as fun to learn the different mechanics of alien game play...a lot of people find it frustrating...which turns people off and reduces the player base.
Whilst I am not saying fades need to be easy mode (by my standards..not mf's) I think we need to be careful setting the entry level too high as it does simply result in players like me choosing to avoid that lifeform instead of wasting res.
I haven't played with it quite enough to do a full breakdown or anything, and the mod is changing constantly. Last time I tried it though, it seemed like every time you pressed blink it was taking a huge chunk of adrenaline, to the point where it wasn't really practical to travel around the map that way. It made it so you couldn't effectively travel quickly around the map and still have enough energy to safely engage marines. That would probably be fine if you could research shadowstep in order to travel around the map more efficiently, but shadowstep doesn't give you any momentum anymore so it doesn't really seem viable as a way to get around.
Granted I've probably only spent 30 minutes as fade in the balance test so I might just not know what I'm doing or something, but I have the bhop mechanic down and i'm still not being able to cruise around as quickly as I can in the vanilla build.
1. NS1: Moving around the map while maintaining energy took a large amount of skill, or atleast a large amount of mechanical practice... Combination of crouchbhop + blink + metabolize
2. NS2: Moving around the map while maintaining energy takes basically no skill, jump -> shadow step -> double jump. Shadow step / blink basically don't even affect energy levels, its stupid. This is due to the huge momentum shadow step provides and your ability to carry this to a large distance with double jump.
3. You are not meant to move around the map with blink, you are meant to tap blink to gain a suitable speed allowing you to attain a high speed of crouch bhop. Energy conservation is apart of the skill requirement.
NS2 live fade is basically easy mode. I can understand why everyone complaining about BT fade because it introduces a few needed things:
1. Fade movement is predictable now, primary movement mechanic has become trackable blink
2. Energy conservation is an important skill
3. The requirement to know how to perform pseudo-bhop + blink
FYI: I personally find the BT fade too easy due to the increased amount of movement options, but I played NS1 far to long so i'm probably just used to the mechanics required. I really have to make a video this weekend to show people dismissing the movement what is actually possible... Too many theory crafters writing off the mechanics without seeing what you can / can't do.
The last version of the BT mod that I played you'd still be completely out of energy. I know how to B-hop. They might have changed the adrenaline cost of tapping blink since then, because i know the time before that everything seemed fine, but in the version I was talking about you had 3, maybe 4 times you could tap blink and still be able to get out of a fight.
I can understand where you're coming from with the vanilla shadowstep mechanic being fairly easy to learn, but I don't think it's as easy as you're implying it is for most people. I have ~600 hours, probably at least 100 of which have been played as fade, and I still have trouble using shadow step accurately in combat.
Plus, I don't think the way bunnyhop was implemented in ns2 really takes any more skill than the vanilla shadowstep.. it's really easy to get the bhop mechanic down.
The last version of the BT mod that I played you'd still be completely out of energy. I know how to B-hop. They might have changed the adrenaline cost of tapping blink since then, because i know the time before that everything seemed fine, but in the version I was talking about you had 3, maybe 4 times you could tap blink and still be able to get out of a fight.
I can understand where you're coming from with the vanilla shadowstep mechanic being fairly easy to learn, but I don't think it's as easy as you're implying it is for most people. I have ~600 hours, probably at least 100 of which have been played as fade, and I still have trouble using shadow step accurately in combat.
Plus, I don't think the way bunnyhop was implemented in ns2 really takes any more skill than the vanilla shadowstep.. it's really easy to get the bhop mechanic down.
The bt mod changes almost daily with some change or other, although i doubt there was ever a version where you could only tap blink 3-4 times. As of right now blink is still pretty much as cheap as live, and much more forgiving for the noobs who hold right click. live ns2
kStartBlinkEnergyCost = 12
kBlinkEnergyCost = 40 bt ns2
kStartBlinkEnergyCost = 13
kBlinkEnergyCost = 34
The reason you are having difficulty using shadowstep accurately in combat is because it is by design inaccurate and cumbersome - fixed teleport distance, hard cd. The jump during shadowstep + air control was never the intended usage UWE had in mind initially. Ever tried to jump right after shadowstepping? Vanilla SS is basically a serendipitous mechanic ontop of something not designed for that usage, so there's little wonder using it like this causes various problematic gameplay consequences.
As for blink/bhop vs shadowstep skill requirement, it is a good thing to be able to intuitively pick it up quickly. I think its quite obvious that bhop/blink however has a higher skill ceiling (2d vs 3d movement, lower speed, more visible to marines, more movement skill required in actual combat etc.), and also lessens the impact of the silly ns2 fade ball shadowstep spam. You also now make it possible to make the fade tankier without making it op. Vanilla SS fade might feel fun, but the gameplay was always much too gambling/luck based imo.
The last version of the BT mod that I played you'd still be completely out of energy. I know how to B-hop. They might have changed the adrenaline cost of tapping blink since then, because i know the time before that everything seemed fine, but in the version I was talking about you had 3, maybe 4 times you could tap blink and still be able to get out of a fight.
I can understand where you're coming from with the vanilla shadowstep mechanic being fairly easy to learn, but I don't think it's as easy as you're implying it is for most people. I have ~600 hours, probably at least 100 of which have been played as fade, and I still have trouble using shadow step accurately in combat.
Plus, I don't think the way bunnyhop was implemented in ns2 really takes any more skill than the vanilla shadowstep.. it's really easy to get the bhop mechanic down.
The bt mod changes almost daily with some change or other, although i doubt there was ever a version where you could only tap blink 3-4 times. As of right now blink is still pretty much as cheap as live, and much more forgiving for the noobs who hold right click. live ns2
kStartBlinkEnergyCost = 12
kBlinkEnergyCost = 40 bt ns2
kStartBlinkEnergyCost = 13
kBlinkEnergyCost = 34
The reason you are having difficulty using shadowstep accurately in combat is because it is by design inaccurate and cumbersome - fixed teleport distance, hard cd. The jump during shadowstep + air control was never the intended usage UWE had in mind initially. Ever tried to jump right after shadowstepping? Vanilla SS is basically a serendipitous mechanic ontop of something not designed for that usage, so there's little wonder using it like this causes various problematic gameplay consequences.
As for blink/bhop vs shadowstep skill requirement, it is a good thing to be able to intuitively pick it up quickly. I think its quite obvious that bhop/blink however has a higher skill ceiling (2d vs 3d movement, lower speed, more visible to marines, more movement skill required in actual combat etc.), and also lessens the impact of the silly ns2 fade ball shadowstep spam. You also now make it possible to make the fade tankier without making it op. Vanilla SS fade might feel fun, but the gameplay was always much too gambling/luck based imo.
When I say you could only tap it 3-4 times, i'm talking about how much you could realistically use it and still be able to engage a marine/run away if you have to. I'm assuming the initial cost was lowered if you're saying it's more in line with the vanilla version right now, because it was definitely a much higher cost last time I played it.
I disagree about the old shadowstep being a problem, but I also don't see what the fuss is all about with the fade balls/life form "explosions," either. To me it just makes more sense to have all the fades come out at the same time and stay in a ball... it's a really strong tactic. I've never felt like playing fade was even remotely luck based, either. If an engagement looks like it's going to be a gamble, or you think there's a good possibility that you might die, then you probably just shouldn't take the engagement until it's safer.
I also think it's pretty ridiculous to design something to intentionally be inaccurate and cumbersome..
Don't get me wrong, there are some things about the new fade that I like. I like the fact that you can shadowstep vertically now, and i've figured out a few cool tricks using that mechanic already. And you can definitely get around the map quickly with blink + bhop, but I just really prefer the old way, and I know I'm not alone on that.
Changing movement will make a big impact in how a game is played. New fade is boring to play, boring to watch. Only problem is aliens have too many spare resources to spend on fade eggs and the other one is blink.
Changing how much upgrades cost or how fast they upgrade will make a finer tuning point than changing a structural pillar like movement.
We all know what happens when we mess up skulk movement for five builds. All ten of my friends I referred this game to, quit playing it because b240 was so bad and was live for too long.
Here are the changes I would make, instead of downgrading fade movement
-make blink more expensive
-make blink take twice as long to upgrade as a starting point
-blink makes vanilla fade 5x better, making a bigger timing window before it creates favor for marines
-(and if you still need to)make fade eggs more expensive like they are in bt mod
@male_fatalities
I don't see how controlling a fade that is slower is harder. You're trying to explain to me in three paragraphs that pressing blink in conjunction with forward and left or forward and right strafe at 5 mph for ten seconds of stamina is harder than maneuvering with the same available movement mechanics AND more at 50 mph?
BT mod fade isn't more difficult to master.... that is terrible word choice. Its more limited period
good to see im not the only one avoiding the vanilla fade. i tried many times but in the end i get a better k/d as skulk.
i only got to try the bt-fade running around the map but i realy liked the new shadowstep, somehow it reminded me of the ns1 fade and i realy fellt more at peace with the movement instead of struggling with it.
for what my poorly informed oppinion is worth, i might actually consider putting my hard earned res on the table for a bt-fade but the vanilla fade is dead to me.
I feel like the level of discourse in this thread has dropped dramatically over the past few weeks... It's too late to shoot down the new movement systems entirely, we've already covered all the arguments every which way and know all the pros and cons. Just let go of live movement, look at what we have now and try to be constructive about how it can be improved.
I'd like to see how the vanilla fade would play out if you only added the vertical use of ss. So you can still have ss+double jump, but with a bit more flexibility and dodging ability. Maybe it would be a good compromise between the vanilla and bt fade?
I'd like to see how the vanilla fade would play out if you only added the vertical use of ss. So you can still have ss+double jump, but with a bit more flexibility and dodging ability. Maybe it would be a good compromise between the vanilla and bt fade?
This is all I'm asking for. If you give shadowstep it's momentum back, I'd be much happier with the BT version. I still wouldn't like it better than the current vanilla version, but it would be a compromise that I would definitely be happy with.
I feel like the level of discourse in this thread has dropped dramatically over the past few weeks... It's too late to shoot down the new movement systems entirely, we've already covered all the arguments every which way and know all the pros and cons. Just let go of live movement, look at what we have now and try to be constructive about how it can be improved.
Part of that is the fact that a lot of people just found out about the mod going live... previously you had only people who were interested in this mod posting in the thread, now you're getting people who are not interested and would not like to see the game changed this drastically/think that it is going to negatively impact the playercount.
Time and time again I've seen people cite the steep learning curve as the reason people don't stick around... so if that + performance are the two main reasons people don't stick around.. why are we going to make everyone re learn the game? It just seems kind of silly to me to think this mod is going to do anything but hurt the amount of people playing the game. But I know it's inevitable, and I've accepted that. I just don't want them to fuck up the current fade shadowstep play.
I think the vanilla shadowstep mechanic was designed very elegantly, and it's fun to play with and fun to watch. I don't know about everyone else, but when i'm watching a match and I see fades come out I get fucking stoked because I know I'm about to see some intense action. A lot of that intensity comes from watching fades dance through the air using the shadowstep + jump mechanic. I think it's a lot more intuitive than strafe jumping, and it's something fresh.
I also find it ironic that people are saying things like " Vanilla SS is basically a serendipitous mechanic ontop of something not designed for that usage, so there's little wonder using it like this causes various problematic gameplay consequences." Isn't that pretty much exactly what strafe jumping was? Or skiing in tribes? Vanilla shadowstep, Skiing, and Strafe jumping are all unintended byproducts of peculiarities in the movement systems of those games. Why are we going to take NS2's unique movement system away and replace it with something that was essentially copied from another (ancient) game?
I dont use ss much as vanilla fade, blink even without adren is usually enough to get into a room, stab some people and then get out. SS is just icing on the cake.
I'd like to see how the vanilla fade would play out if you only added the vertical use of ss. So you can still have ss+double jump, but with a bit more flexibility and dodging ability. Maybe it would be a good compromise between the vanilla and bt fade?
You don't seem to understand the goal of the BT fade, but I'll explain it really quickly
1) Raise the skill floor - easier for new players to start fade, or begin quicker movement; you'll see many beginner fades consistently stand still in vanilla
2) Raise the skill ceiling - more things for the advanced fade to do, don't forget you can use shadowstep to keep momentum
3) Nerf but balance at the same time, in vanilla you simply have too much energy; so this aspect is gone, but now your health values can be different (higher in BT)
I'd like to see how the vanilla fade would play out if you only added the vertical use of ss. So you can still have ss+double jump, but with a bit more flexibility and dodging ability. Maybe it would be a good compromise between the vanilla and bt fade?
You don't seem to understand the goal of the BT fade, but I'll explain it really quickly
1) Raise the skill floor - easier for new players to start fade, or begin quicker movement; you'll see many beginner fades consistently stand still in vanilla
2) Raise the skill ceiling - more things for the advanced fade to do, don't forget you can use shadowstep to keep momentum
3) Nerf but balance at the same time, in vanilla you simply have too much energy; so this aspect is gone, but now your health values can be different (higher in BT)
Oh, I understand the goal. Doesn't mean I have to agree with the changes though. For instance, if you'd add vertical use of ss to the vanilla fade, I'd say you'd lower the skill floor and make it a bit easier for new players, no? Perhaps even raise the skill ceiling too. I'm curious how it would work, has it been tried before?
i've seen a few people say that the bullet registration is better in BT. Is this just that its become easier to hit as the bullet trace is now performed with a volume, in a similar way to how parasites work in vanilla or have there actually been changes to improve the registration?
@male_fatalities
I don't see how controlling a fade that is slower is harder. You're trying to explain to me in three paragraphs that pressing blink in conjunction with forward and left or forward and right strafe at 5 mph for ten seconds of stamina is harder than maneuvering with the same available movement mechanics AND more at 50 mph?
BT mod fade isn't more difficult to master.... that is terrible word choice. Its more limited period
It is more difficult because your movement is predictable, i never said mechanically it is more difficult. We arn't playing street fighter
@male_fatalities
I don't see how controlling a fade that is slower is harder. You're trying to explain to me in three paragraphs that pressing blink in conjunction with forward and left or forward and right strafe at 5 mph for ten seconds of stamina is harder than maneuvering with the same available movement mechanics AND more at 50 mph?
BT mod fade isn't more difficult to master.... that is terrible word choice. Its more limited period
It is more difficult because your movement is predictable, i never said mechanically it is more difficult. We arn't playing street fighter
Why is removing the unpredictability of the fade a good thing?
i've seen a few people say that the bullet registration is better in BT. Is this just that its become easier to hit as the bullet trace is now performed with a volume, in a similar way to how parasites work in vanilla or have there actually been changes to improve the registration?
Both.
The bullet width is pretty small now, with increased spread (that should be lessened Imo) and a secondary trace to check for hits.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Idk why but I can't shake the feeling that something has changed negatively for the skulk movement in yesterday 's games, compared to previous weeks.
It could have been something wonky with the server, idk..
But basically it felt like momentum was too often sapped to a dead halt. I felt powerless in combat (not travel) - very frustrating - compared to previous implementations. Perhaps I was tapping the space bar too much, perhaps the inconsistency in air to ground acceleration takes more time to get used to.. Idk..
But this was the first time I actually struggled as a skulk..
And when i went marine I found skulks to be insanely easy to track, comparatively, like they were floating in air like a blimp wagging it's feet (animation bug).
The round seemed to reflect this given we didn't even make it to fades.
Tldr: movement felt frustrating and less fun for the first time in this mod for me.
@male_fatalities
I don't see how controlling a fade that is slower is harder. You're trying to explain to me in three paragraphs that pressing blink in conjunction with forward and left or forward and right strafe at 5 mph for ten seconds of stamina is harder than maneuvering with the same available movement mechanics AND more at 50 mph?
BT mod fade isn't more difficult to master.... that is terrible word choice. Its more limited period
It is more difficult because your movement is predictable, i never said mechanically it is more difficult. We arn't playing street fighter
Don't think I've ever been a fan of lowering skill ceiling. Less tools to work with, the less fun a game is.
So at how many sg blasts do you considered a low skill input but high speed and unpredictability movement system unbalanced?
I wouldn't consider the vanilla fade to have low skill input.. the balance test version is closer to that description imo. Being able to strafe and jump at the same time =/= high skill input, either. Bhop in NS2 is probably easier to pull off accurately too, compared to vanilla shadowstep. Especially considering you get blink first now. Timing your swipes and shadowsteps before you have blink requires much more skill than blinking into someone and attacking.
The only part of the new fade movement that requires more "skill," imo at least, is energy management.. which certainly doesn't make it more fun to play.
What I was getting at with the 2 shotgun blast comment, is that right now a shadowstep fade with carapace is basically on par with a w1/a1 marine. 3 fade swipes to kill, 2 shotgun blasts to kill. 3 swipes and 2 shotgun blasts take just about the same amount of time to get off. If you give the fade any more HP, it would be able to kill a marine much faster than the marine could kill it, and it would become unrealistic for a solo marine to ever be able to take a fade out.
Too many of the faster movement things don't really fit well in a game where marines can shoot you / skulks can bite you even when they're not looking anywhere in your direction (in terms of player point of view)
imo the engine needs to be fixed before changing movement to be faster
straight line movement is good, especially for crappy engines, because the player has to choose between getting to the destination quickly or being hard to hit
that's a worthwhile mechanic because it has risk and reward or cost and benefit
interp is going to be more and more broken the farther you move from straight-line movement and the lower the framerate is
The only part of the new fade movement that requires more "skill," imo at least, is energy management.. which certainly doesn't make it more fun to play.
anything that emphasizes decisions (resource management / energy management) instead of mechanics (various low-cost movement techniques) is better for games with bad engines (eg. NS2)
I don't know if the mod actually does this, but it's better to design a game that plays well in practice (eg. on an engine with bad netcode and framerate) rather than a game that only plays well in theory
Too many of the faster movement things don't really fit well in a game where marines can shoot you / skulks can bite you even when they're not looking anywhere in your direction (in terms of player point of view)
imo the engine needs to be fixed before changing movement to be faster
straight line movement is good, especially for crappy engines, because the player has to choose between getting to the destination quickly or being hard to hit
that's a worthwhile mechanic because it has risk and reward or cost and benefit
interp is going to be more and more broken the farther you move from straight-line movement and the lower the framerate is
The only part of the new fade movement that requires more "skill," imo at least, is energy management.. which certainly doesn't make it more fun to play.
anything that emphasizes decisions (resource management / energy management) instead of mechanics (various low-cost movement techniques) is better for games with bad engines (eg. NS2)
I don't know if the mod actually does this, but it's better to design a game that plays well in practice (eg. on an engine with bad netcode and framerate) rather than a game that only plays well in theory
It does, but not to the extent that I thought it did. The cost of blink has definitely been reduced, it doesn't really take any more energy than the vanilla shadowstep movement system now.
I don't think you can really say the NS2 engine is bad.. it has some performance issues but even with high ping I haven't been getting interped in the balance mod very much. Plus once you cut the light count on the maps down, the game runs great xD
I'm kind of worried about the skulk movement though, tbh. It makes them way too easy to kill.. there's almost no air control at all so if a skulk is jumping out of a vent or off a ceiling, they're basically just gonna move in a straight line until they hit the ground.
Now that umbra is the lerk's strong point and has some slight feedback to it (orange shader on friendlies) you will notice how often it does not engage.
It needs to be faster/hitscan to keep up with the leaping/flying/blinking/charging/sliding "mobile" team..
OR .. it needs to remain active on the target longer after touching said cloud so that the lerk can shoot it ahead of his teamates at the very least.
It also needs to be less opaque for both sides.. no one enjoys the wall of orange.
it also needs to be able to be switched to, using the mwheel (bug)
it also needs to be able to be switched between bite and spikes far faster (the lerk in general swaps weapons at a painful rate)
Also, while i get that only the skulk should be highlighting with parasite - the lerk spikes previously highlighting a marine was FAARRR more useful to that individual lerk picking out some small pixels in the far distance... forget about scouting for a second...without this feature its essentially forcing me to use alien vision (which i do not like to use for various reasons) just to utilize the weapon of that lifeform??
It doesn't have to highlight it for the entire team.. thats not needed. Just for the lerk ... it already has a steep skill requirement for new players - picking out a few dark pixels in the far corner of central drilling is annoying and i find this to be a nerf mostly to poor aiming/tracking players, but also to those that don't use alien vision 100% of the time.
Thats what i can think of right now without getting into lerk overhauls in design (spores, poison bite, pancaking etc)
Comments
1. NS1: Moving around the map while maintaining energy took a large amount of skill, or atleast a large amount of mechanical practice... Combination of crouchbhop + blink + metabolize
2. NS2: Moving around the map while maintaining energy takes basically no skill, jump -> shadow step -> double jump. Shadow step / blink basically don't even affect energy levels, its stupid. This is due to the huge momentum shadow step provides and your ability to carry this to a large distance with double jump.
3. You are not meant to move around the map with blink, you are meant to tap blink to gain a suitable speed allowing you to attain a high speed of crouch bhop. Energy conservation is apart of the skill requirement.
NS2 live fade is basically easy mode. I can understand why everyone complaining about BT fade because it introduces a few needed things:
1. Fade movement is predictable now, primary movement mechanic has become trackable blink
2. Energy conservation is an important skill
3. The requirement to know how to perform pseudo-bhop + blink
FYI: I personally find the BT fade too easy due to the increased amount of movement options, but I played NS1 far to long so i'm probably just used to the mechanics required. I really have to make a video this weekend to show people dismissing the movement what is actually possible... Too many theory crafters writing off the mechanics without seeing what you can / can't do.
Fades are really good in vanilla, so are lerks yes. But why is it that they are being nerfed this badly.
Aliens don't get 50 p.res in a blink of an eye. One misstep and your chance to fade might be over. If you lose your fade you might lose the game, before you can accumulate another 50 p.res.
Marines have shotguns at a cost of 20 p.res. So you have 2.5 tries to kill a fade solo. I think that balance is fine.
If that is all you got out of my post my argument is lost on you, so I won't bother.
Not surprisingly giving your view/arguments over the large amount of topics you post in.
The last version of the BT mod that I played you'd still be completely out of energy. I know how to B-hop. They might have changed the adrenaline cost of tapping blink since then, because i know the time before that everything seemed fine, but in the version I was talking about you had 3, maybe 4 times you could tap blink and still be able to get out of a fight.
I can understand where you're coming from with the vanilla shadowstep mechanic being fairly easy to learn, but I don't think it's as easy as you're implying it is for most people. I have ~600 hours, probably at least 100 of which have been played as fade, and I still have trouble using shadow step accurately in combat.
Plus, I don't think the way bunnyhop was implemented in ns2 really takes any more skill than the vanilla shadowstep.. it's really easy to get the bhop mechanic down.
live ns2
kStartBlinkEnergyCost = 12
kBlinkEnergyCost = 40
bt ns2
kStartBlinkEnergyCost = 13
kBlinkEnergyCost = 34
The reason you are having difficulty using shadowstep accurately in combat is because it is by design inaccurate and cumbersome - fixed teleport distance, hard cd. The jump during shadowstep + air control was never the intended usage UWE had in mind initially. Ever tried to jump right after shadowstepping? Vanilla SS is basically a serendipitous mechanic ontop of something not designed for that usage, so there's little wonder using it like this causes various problematic gameplay consequences.
As for blink/bhop vs shadowstep skill requirement, it is a good thing to be able to intuitively pick it up quickly. I think its quite obvious that bhop/blink however has a higher skill ceiling (2d vs 3d movement, lower speed, more visible to marines, more movement skill required in actual combat etc.), and also lessens the impact of the silly ns2 fade ball shadowstep spam. You also now make it possible to make the fade tankier without making it op. Vanilla SS fade might feel fun, but the gameplay was always much too gambling/luck based imo.
When I say you could only tap it 3-4 times, i'm talking about how much you could realistically use it and still be able to engage a marine/run away if you have to. I'm assuming the initial cost was lowered if you're saying it's more in line with the vanilla version right now, because it was definitely a much higher cost last time I played it.
I disagree about the old shadowstep being a problem, but I also don't see what the fuss is all about with the fade balls/life form "explosions," either. To me it just makes more sense to have all the fades come out at the same time and stay in a ball... it's a really strong tactic. I've never felt like playing fade was even remotely luck based, either. If an engagement looks like it's going to be a gamble, or you think there's a good possibility that you might die, then you probably just shouldn't take the engagement until it's safer.
I also think it's pretty ridiculous to design something to intentionally be inaccurate and cumbersome..
Don't get me wrong, there are some things about the new fade that I like. I like the fact that you can shadowstep vertically now, and i've figured out a few cool tricks using that mechanic already. And you can definitely get around the map quickly with blink + bhop, but I just really prefer the old way, and I know I'm not alone on that.
Changing how much upgrades cost or how fast they upgrade will make a finer tuning point than changing a structural pillar like movement.
We all know what happens when we mess up skulk movement for five builds. All ten of my friends I referred this game to, quit playing it because b240 was so bad and was live for too long.
Here are the changes I would make, instead of downgrading fade movement
-make blink more expensive
-make blink take twice as long to upgrade as a starting point
-blink makes vanilla fade 5x better, making a bigger timing window before it creates favor for marines
-(and if you still need to)make fade eggs more expensive like they are in bt mod
@male_fatalities
I don't see how controlling a fade that is slower is harder. You're trying to explain to me in three paragraphs that pressing blink in conjunction with forward and left or forward and right strafe at 5 mph for ten seconds of stamina is harder than maneuvering with the same available movement mechanics AND more at 50 mph?
BT mod fade isn't more difficult to master.... that is terrible word choice. Its more limited period
i only got to try the bt-fade running around the map but i realy liked the new shadowstep, somehow it reminded me of the ns1 fade and i realy fellt more at peace with the movement instead of struggling with it.
for what my poorly informed oppinion is worth, i might actually consider putting my hard earned res on the table for a bt-fade but the vanilla fade is dead to me.
This is all I'm asking for. If you give shadowstep it's momentum back, I'd be much happier with the BT version. I still wouldn't like it better than the current vanilla version, but it would be a compromise that I would definitely be happy with.
Part of that is the fact that a lot of people just found out about the mod going live... previously you had only people who were interested in this mod posting in the thread, now you're getting people who are not interested and would not like to see the game changed this drastically/think that it is going to negatively impact the playercount.
Time and time again I've seen people cite the steep learning curve as the reason people don't stick around... so if that + performance are the two main reasons people don't stick around.. why are we going to make everyone re learn the game? It just seems kind of silly to me to think this mod is going to do anything but hurt the amount of people playing the game. But I know it's inevitable, and I've accepted that. I just don't want them to fuck up the current fade shadowstep play.
I think the vanilla shadowstep mechanic was designed very elegantly, and it's fun to play with and fun to watch. I don't know about everyone else, but when i'm watching a match and I see fades come out I get fucking stoked because I know I'm about to see some intense action. A lot of that intensity comes from watching fades dance through the air using the shadowstep + jump mechanic. I think it's a lot more intuitive than strafe jumping, and it's something fresh.
I also find it ironic that people are saying things like " Vanilla SS is basically a serendipitous mechanic ontop of something not designed for that usage, so there's little wonder using it like this causes various problematic gameplay consequences." Isn't that pretty much exactly what strafe jumping was? Or skiing in tribes? Vanilla shadowstep, Skiing, and Strafe jumping are all unintended byproducts of peculiarities in the movement systems of those games. Why are we going to take NS2's unique movement system away and replace it with something that was essentially copied from another (ancient) game?
You don't seem to understand the goal of the BT fade, but I'll explain it really quickly
1) Raise the skill floor - easier for new players to start fade, or begin quicker movement; you'll see many beginner fades consistently stand still in vanilla
2) Raise the skill ceiling - more things for the advanced fade to do, don't forget you can use shadowstep to keep momentum
3) Nerf but balance at the same time, in vanilla you simply have too much energy; so this aspect is gone, but now your health values can be different (higher in BT)
Oh, I understand the goal. Doesn't mean I have to agree with the changes though. For instance, if you'd add vertical use of ss to the vanilla fade, I'd say you'd lower the skill floor and make it a bit easier for new players, no? Perhaps even raise the skill ceiling too. I'm curious how it would work, has it been tried before?
It is more difficult because your movement is predictable, i never said mechanically it is more difficult. We arn't playing street fighter
Why is removing the unpredictability of the fade a good thing?
The bullet width is pretty small now, with increased spread (that should be lessened Imo) and a secondary trace to check for hits.
The same reason 20 speed wall jumping skulks were nerfed.
High speed and unpredictability for low skill input is unbalanced.
It could have been something wonky with the server, idk..
But basically it felt like momentum was too often sapped to a dead halt. I felt powerless in combat (not travel) - very frustrating - compared to previous implementations. Perhaps I was tapping the space bar too much, perhaps the inconsistency in air to ground acceleration takes more time to get used to.. Idk..
But this was the first time I actually struggled as a skulk..
And when i went marine I found skulks to be insanely easy to track, comparatively, like they were floating in air like a blimp wagging it's feet (animation bug).
The round seemed to reflect this given we didn't even make it to fades.
Tldr: movement felt frustrating and less fun for the first time in this mod for me.
The same reason a lot of playerbase was lost post 20 speed wall jumping (post b239)
How is the vanilla fade imbalanced? It dies in 2 shotgun blasts
What same reason, this doesn't sentence doesn't even make any sense in regards to the quoted text.
So at how many sg blasts do you considered a low skill input but high speed and unpredictability movement system unbalanced?
Don't think I've ever been a fan of lowering skill ceiling. Less tools to work with, the less fun a game is.
I wouldn't consider the vanilla fade to have low skill input.. the balance test version is closer to that description imo. Being able to strafe and jump at the same time =/= high skill input, either. Bhop in NS2 is probably easier to pull off accurately too, compared to vanilla shadowstep. Especially considering you get blink first now. Timing your swipes and shadowsteps before you have blink requires much more skill than blinking into someone and attacking.
The only part of the new fade movement that requires more "skill," imo at least, is energy management.. which certainly doesn't make it more fun to play.
What I was getting at with the 2 shotgun blast comment, is that right now a shadowstep fade with carapace is basically on par with a w1/a1 marine. 3 fade swipes to kill, 2 shotgun blasts to kill. 3 swipes and 2 shotgun blasts take just about the same amount of time to get off. If you give the fade any more HP, it would be able to kill a marine much faster than the marine could kill it, and it would become unrealistic for a solo marine to ever be able to take a fade out.
imo the engine needs to be fixed before changing movement to be faster
straight line movement is good, especially for crappy engines, because the player has to choose between getting to the destination quickly or being hard to hit
that's a worthwhile mechanic because it has risk and reward or cost and benefit
interp is going to be more and more broken the farther you move from straight-line movement and the lower the framerate is
anything that emphasizes decisions (resource management / energy management) instead of mechanics (various low-cost movement techniques) is better for games with bad engines (eg. NS2)
I don't know if the mod actually does this, but it's better to design a game that plays well in practice (eg. on an engine with bad netcode and framerate) rather than a game that only plays well in theory
It does, but not to the extent that I thought it did. The cost of blink has definitely been reduced, it doesn't really take any more energy than the vanilla shadowstep movement system now.
I don't think you can really say the NS2 engine is bad.. it has some performance issues but even with high ping I haven't been getting interped in the balance mod very much. Plus once you cut the light count on the maps down, the game runs great xD
I'm kind of worried about the skulk movement though, tbh. It makes them way too easy to kill.. there's almost no air control at all so if a skulk is jumping out of a vent or off a ceiling, they're basically just gonna move in a straight line until they hit the ground.