DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2062705:date=Jan 18 2013, 06:06 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 18 2013, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't realize it grew on infestation, thought it was just hive presence. Anyway, then I would say instead allow them to grow on their own, but ONLY BE PLACED ON INFESTATION.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they grow on infestation, but can survive without it. Without infestation however they will unroot.
<!--quoteo(post=2062733:date=Jan 18 2013, 12:08 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 18 2013, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they grow on infestation, but can survive without it. Without infestation however they will unroot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that is for whips. Hydras don't unroot or root at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2062705:date=Jan 18 2013, 12:06 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 18 2013, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't realize it grew on infestation, thought it was just hive presence. Anyway, then I would say instead allow them to grow on their own, but ONLY BE PLACED ON INFESTATION.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hydras only grow on their own when placed on infestion. When placed on non-infestation surfaces, the gorge needs to healspray it into maturity. And it doesn't need infestation to survive.
<!--quoteo(post=2062607:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:14 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 18 2013, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using the dodge argument that way is dumb - you could justify any amount damage that way. It's a question of to what extent and at what cost can you dodge/avoid it and how high is the punishment for not doing so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One of the few non hitscan ranged weps in the game. The dodge argument is a big part of it.
i'd say only reduce the damage and get rid of the blind effect only after making sure that the hitreg is perfect.
you're telling me that 4 shots can kill a solo marine, sure, that'd be pretty bad if you could actually hit things properly. as it stands now, i have no idea if i'll hit or not, also, it takes a clip to kill a gorge more or less... which is over in like a couple seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2062640:date=Jan 18 2013, 12:11 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 18 2013, 12:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marine gets the jump on the gorge, the gorge should lose. But if they see each other down a dusty road, tumble weeds rolling by as a distant raptor scream splits the sky, I think it should be a fair fight<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If a gorge and a marine are facing off over a *distance* then the gorge should be able to (successfully) flee. He has the speed, and he has the belly slide. There is no possible reason to engage a marine who has two guns that can potentially kill you many times over. If you see a marine, your first instinct as gorge should be to run since you know you are at risk.
The problem is that the gorge is NOT at risk. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the gorge should be limping away from the fight, but surviving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm totally with you on this. The gorge most certainly should have advanced survivability, but it *does*. It runs faster, has an escape ability and can blind the attacker. Those are all the tools a person should need to secure an escape.
My problem isn't the blind, it's the blind *and* the high damage.
Spit has a range of 40 and a 'projectile speed' of 40, and a refire rate of 0.5 - which means he can do 80 DPS. A weapons 3 marine will do 130 DPS.
An armor 3 marine has 280 effective health against a gorge using spit. That means a gorge with perfect accuracy can kill an armor 3 marine in 3.5 seconds. (or 7 spit shots)
A carapace gorge has 450 effective health versus a LMG marine. That means a marine with perfect accuracy can kill a carapace gorge in 3.46 seconds.
Do you see the problem here? The gorge is effectively as strong as a marine in a one-on-one battle, *despite* the fact that the gorge also gets to blind his attacker *AND* heal through some of the damage. That gorge has a weapon with pinpoint accuracy, versus the LMG which has bullet spread. As it stands any alien who can aim will win EVERY battle with a lone marine. The marine will never be able to maintain any kind of accuracy while blinded, so the gorge will make quick work of him.
Should the gorge miss a few shots, he can jump around and self heal while spamming the occasional spit to keep the marine blind. Or he can belly slide away from the blind marine.
Spit damage needs to be significantly cut *OR* the blind needs to be removed. (although even if it was the gorge is still OP) Right now the gorge has it all, and it's just not balanced.
Bad Marines are overpowered, overpowered to the extent they come to the forums and try to have dev's cripple the game for themselves because they can't cope with any sort of adaptation.
That being said though, I do think a raise in price for the gorge wouldn't be too out of the question, they do quite a lot for 10 res, and gorges who die can easily repurchase themselves to the same status with the cheap initiation cost, with applications in bile bomb rushing over and over etc already being a problem, I think the developers should probably change something in here to alleviate this (but not gorge spit for the baddies) although I guess the reason their cost is so low is because of hydra costs, (maybe raise the base gorge cost to something around 15res-20res and lower hydra costs to 2 res each, as compensation?)
Amusing seeing a post like the one above come from a pub marine - especially considering quite a few top players have weighed in on the fact that the spit does too much damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2062671:date=Jan 18 2013, 05:15 PM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Jan 18 2013, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 the gorge spit did 30 and didn't blind the marine. In NS2 the gorge spit does 40 and blocks marine vision. It is being asked to make it like in NS1. But we can go on crazy hyperboles if you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 the amount of Gorges got limited by design mostly due to it's "commander nature". So a NS1 Gorge had way more attention/cover from his team compared to a NS2 Gorge. 3 Hive Web helped lessen that dependency as 3 Hives in NS1 actually do what they are supposed to do (Be a game ender).
The NS2 Gorge does not play the center of the team. In NS2 the Kharaa team can win without ever having a single Gorge. Due to this, Gorges tend to be overlooked by teammates, add to that the way smaller nature of NS2 maps (and lack of 3 Hive ability) in general and you have a very Gorge unfriendly environment compared to NS1.
As such i would argue that the Gorge is even less of an support role than it ever had been in NS1, so there is no reason to keep it's combat potential artificial low. After all now we have the option of having several Gorges in a team without hurting it's economy. That option is wasted if we nerf the Gorge to a walking Crag that has no business being in combat. By doing that we would once again promote "single Gorge per team" tactics and that would be a step back.
<!--quoteo(post=2062850:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:49 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My problem isn't the blind, it's the blind *and* the high damage.
Spit has a range of 40 and a 'projectile speed' of 40, and a refire rate of 0.5 - which means he can do 80 DPS. A weapons 3 marine will do 130 DPS.
An armor 3 marine has 280 effective health against a gorge using spit. That means a gorge with perfect accuracy can kill an armor 3 marine in 3.5 seconds. (or 7 spit shots)
A carapace gorge has 450 effective health versus a LMG marine. That means a marine with perfect accuracy can kill a carapace gorge in 3.46 seconds.
Do you see the problem here? The gorge is effectively as strong as a marine in a one-on-one battle, *despite* the fact that the gorge also gets to blind his attacker *AND* heal through some of the damage. That gorge has a weapon with pinpoint accuracy, versus the LMG which has bullet spread. As it stands any alien who can aim will win EVERY battle with a lone marine. The marine will never be able to maintain any kind of accuracy while blinded, so the gorge will make quick work of him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Gorge can either DPS the Marine down in 3,46 seconds OR he can heal up some damage. Mixing those two throws your whole math off in favor of the Marine, because once the Gorge starts healing, the blind wears off the Marine won't need to dodge anymore, making killing the Gorge just that much easier. You are also ignoring that the LMG is hitscan while Spit are projectiles. In terms of "landing hits" Spit is way more demanding than the LMG ever could be and tbh i can't take your comment about "bullet spread on the LMG" seriously, unless NS is the first FPS you ever played (which i doubt). You should know that the bullet spread on the hitscan LMG is neglectable compared to the difficulty of hitting a moving target with a projectile based weapon with way lower RoF.
Personally i believe that Gorges should hold their own very well in a 1on1 situation, especially with preparation time. A Gorge is a res investment for the Kharaa team (even more so with Hydras) and as such the Marine team should either be required to invest res on their own (A couple of Medpacks usually do the trick, if that fails combine those with a Shotgun) or approach with overwhelming coordinated force. Meaning: At least 2 Marines rushing and actually focus firing the Gorge (That happens way too seldom but the blame for that lies with Marines not with the Gorge).
But here is a bone for the discussion: Medpacks remove the blind from Gorge spit (Don't they do that already?) and grand short immunity from it or make Gorge spit start out without the blind but at two Hives it gains the blind.
<!--quoteo(post=2062850:date=Jan 18 2013, 04:49 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a gorge and a marine are facing off over a *distance* then the gorge should be able to (successfully) flee. He has the speed, and he has the belly slide. There is no possible reason to engage a marine who has two guns that can potentially kill you many times over. If you see a marine, your first instinct as gorge should be to run since you know you are at risk.
The problem is that the gorge is NOT at risk. I'm totally with you on this. The gorge most certainly should have advanced survivability, but it *does*. It runs faster, has an escape ability and can blind the attacker. Those are all the tools a person should need to secure an escape.
My problem isn't the blind, it's the blind *and* the high damage.
Spit has a range of 40 and a 'projectile speed' of 40, and a refire rate of 0.5 - which means he can do 80 DPS. A weapons 3 marine will do 130 DPS.
An armor 3 marine has 280 effective health against a gorge using spit. That means a gorge with perfect accuracy can kill an armor 3 marine in 3.5 seconds. (or 7 spit shots)
A carapace gorge has 450 effective health versus a LMG marine. That means a marine with perfect accuracy can kill a carapace gorge in 3.46 seconds.
Do you see the problem here? The gorge is effectively as strong as a marine in a one-on-one battle, *despite* the fact that the gorge also gets to blind his attacker *AND* heal through some of the damage. That gorge has a weapon with pinpoint accuracy, versus the LMG which has bullet spread. As it stands any alien who can aim will win EVERY battle with a lone marine. The marine will never be able to maintain any kind of accuracy while blinded, so the gorge will make quick work of him.
Should the gorge miss a few shots, he can jump around and self heal while spamming the occasional spit to keep the marine blind. Or he can belly slide away from the blind marine.
Spit damage needs to be significantly cut *OR* the blind needs to be removed. (although even if it was the gorge is still OP) Right now the gorge has it all, and it's just not balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problem with removing the blind. The only problem I have is that these:
<!--quoteo(post=2062300:date=Jan 17 2013, 06:05 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 17 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should not be the gorges only options in a fight with a single LMG marine. It HAS TO be able to win in a one on one with a, singular, stock marine.
Let's remove the blind and leave the damage alone and let it play out. If gorges are still "pwning it up" we can revisit the damage.
Personally I love the blinding, even as a marine. It just feels so much more dynamic of a mechanic than damage.
I do feel that 40 is too high for the gorge, that 30 was the sweet spot from NS1. So I'd like so see same blinding, but a damage reduction.
Alternatively, I could really appreciate the potential behind a cumulative boost for the gorge, at the cost of more res. So a 15 res gorge that kept the 40 damage and blinding, maybe gained a small speed (10%) and armor (20) boost. That would feel like a more fun class to play than a 'throwaway' 10 res. It's usually no problem to re-gorge at that cost, plus you can drop all three Hydras right at round start, which would be reduced significantly if the gorge cost 15. It would also give gorge kills (as a marine) a bit more kick of awesomeness.
Omg, Gorge spit actually hits and deals dmg OP! Either remove hit or dmg!
If u cant kill a gorge 1 on 1... problem sits in front of the pc. If u have a harder time deal with a gorge + hydra then pre patch... GOOD, thats what it should be.. before was lunch time if there was a single hole in the clog wall.
Seriously, Gorge is still an easy target and i hope we get webs soon. So save some tears for webs pls.. because when webs arrive there will be no more single rine jumps over clogs and kills 10 res gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2062889:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:42 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jan 18 2013, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Gorge can either DPS the Marine down in 3,46 seconds OR he can heal up some damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never suggested otherwise. What I did say was that he can heal through some of the damage while blind is in effect. Yeah that will lengthen the kill time, but the point was that even if the marine gets the jump on a gorge the blind means the gorge can negate some of the marine damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are also ignoring that the LMG is hitscan while Spit are projectiles. In terms of "landing hits" Spit is way more demanding than the LMG ever could ... the bullet spread on the hitscan LMG is neglectable compared to the difficulty of hitting a moving target with a projectile based weapon with way lower RoF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd hardly call it negligible unless you happen to be right on top of the gorge. From range there is spread. The LMG isn't an automatic pistol. Furthermore, gorge spit speed is 40, hardly slow. I have no problem taking out marines with ease with a gorge. Marines will almost always run right at you, which makes it painfully easy. If a person has problems landing hits with gorge spit then they need more practice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally i believe that Gorges should hold their own very well in a 1on1 situation, especially with preparation time. A Gorge is a res investment for the Kharaa team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but 10 res is hardly an investment. I spend that much on welders in any given time frame. If it was 20, different story entirely. At 10 res the gorge is still a disposable lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2062892:date=Jan 18 2013, 07:47 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 18 2013, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no problem with removing the blind. The only problem I have is that these:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Should not be the gorges only options in a fight with a single LMG marine. It HAS TO be able to win in a one on one with a, singular, stock marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, I have to disagree here. It should *survive*, it shouldn't be able to start mowing down marines like they were chumps. We have a different opinion of what 'win' means in 1-on-1. To me for a gorge to win it means he belly slides away with a LOL while shaking his fat rump at the marine. Survival is what the gorge should have, and he has the tools for it. The gorge is a SUPPORT lifeform, not front line infantry. The gorge should not be able to rush up to and kill a "singular, stock marine" by nature of a mechanic that is designed to allow that gorge to escape.
Like I said, I'm all for giving the gorge tools to SURVIVE. I just disagree that survival should mean being able to totally blind his opponent AND THEN kill that opponent. Not as a support lifeform. You can't have it both ways. Either the gorge is a support role alien or he isn't. If he isn't then he shouldn't be knocking off marines with ease.
<!--quoteo(post=2063032:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:24 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, I'm all for giving the gorge tools to SURVIVE. I just disagree that survival should mean being able to totally blind his opponent AND THEN kill that opponent. Not as a support lifeform. You can't have it both ways. Either the gorge is a support role alien or he isn't. If he isn't then he shouldn't be knocking off marines with ease.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then remove the blind effect.
With the way that the gorge has been gutted compared to NS1 I think you could easily argue that it is no longer a "support" unit. It completely pales in comparison to NS1. If they couldn't heal, they would be completely useless. No one wants to play a heal-bot; and as previously stated "bellyslide" is over rated as a defensive option. It is really only useful in responding to threats (x hive is attack and you are at y hive) because of the fact that sliding in a straight line is hardly evasive.
You want the gorge to not be strong in 1 on 1, then you MUST allow it to build crags, shifts and veils in some manner. Allow it to build traps that give it regen and extra energy and a good place to put their hydras so that the foolish marine that chases it into its briar patch is sorry he did. Otherwise the gorge is solely a heal bot that chucks the occasional Bile Bomb between healing the Onos.
I loved playing gorge in NS1. Building defenses in a new hive, dropping RTs, getting the Hive up. Goring was fun. NS2, its still a useful position; but it is hardly needed. Smart gorges can still set up road blocks that will deter all but the most determined marines. They are useful to speed up hive maturity. Anyone playing Onos likes a gorge. But it is nowhere near as rewarding in NS2.
People griped about dying to Walls of Lame, calling it "no skill", "lame", and all other pejorative internet slurs. Now, that it can't build useful buildings, and Hydras are a not Offensive Chambers, and the gorge has to shoot a projectile at the marine, it is still too much? His only option is to run away?
Might as well take the gorge out of the game and bump up the aliens natural regen a bit.
i think the issue is many are missing the point being made, at least the point ive noticed:
the problem isnt when you have 1v1 gorge vs. marine. there is no OP or balance issue there really.
its when 3 or 4 gorges can rush marine start and while 2 heal 2 are shooting. between the blind and the not-too-shabby rate of fire *spit isnt super fast, but it isn't slow either*, thats potentially a marine dead in short order. with W0/A0, unless their accuracy is perfect on a gorge leaping and dodging around, the marines will die before the gorge will due to all the healing, resulting in said 3 or 4 gorges locking down marine start in short order.
ive seen it happen more than once, even with players that were no slouches with aim. so the whole 'L2P and stop sucking' is irrelevent
secondly, no one with reasonable thinking wants a gorge nerf smack or is calling for them to lose all defensive ability. simply that they were balanced originally around a bad hit calculation, which is now fixed, revealing that when MASSED *not solo gorges, GROUPS of gorges!*, they do a bit too much too fast IN THE EARLY GAME, and need a re-review of statistics and numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2063034:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:50 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 19 2013, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then remove the blind effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->At the very least, although I still think damage needs to come down. It's amazing how badly broken gorge spit was before the patch, since I couldn't hit a marine to save my life before, and now I'm getting LOL kills with ease.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I loved playing gorge in NS1. Building defenses in a new hive, dropping RTs, getting the Hive up. Goring was fun. NS2, its still a useful position; but it is hardly needed. Smart gorges can still set up road blocks that will deter all but the most determined marines. They are useful to speed up hive maturity. Anyone playing Onos likes a gorge. But it is nowhere near as rewarding in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll certainly agree gorge in NS2 is markedly different than in NS1, but we had no alien comm back then.
It's funny because back in NS1 the alien team required more coordination than the marine team. Who was dropping what chamber? Who was saving for the hive? Who can afford to drop an RT?
However I disagree that the gorge has no role in NS2. Before the patch the gorge was very deadly once bile bomb was researched. While a 1 hive gorge wasn't all that useful, neither was a 1 hive Onos/Fade/Lerk for that matter.
Yeah anyone playing Onos likes a gorge, and no one likes being a healbot, but tell that to the marines running around with welders out. Frankly I don't like EITHER mechanic since I don't think it's fun for players on either side to have to run around holding down their heal key while watching the ass end of another player while he causes death and destruction. I'd love to see how it would play out if healing could only be done out of combat for ALL players. (say a 2-3 second window - although DOTs would have to be removed or not count as damage for sake of this)
Has the gorge lost some of his role in NS2 from NS1? Sure. However just giving the gorge the ability to drop chambers is not the way to go IMHO. We should just remove the alien comm and give all gorges access to the team's T-res pool. They can then run around dropping cysts and chambers etc. Some functions they might need to pop into a hive (like sending out a drifter or choosing upgrades), but jumping into a hive would be restricted to gorges alone. Hydras would be restricted like sentries, 3 to a room, so that you can't just dump piles of them in one place.
Frankly I think this would better suit the asymmetry in Natural Selection, and it would give the gorge lots to do.
Does everyone need to be reminded what a bouncing ball of gorges can do? Gorges aren’t OP they just needed some loving, too many times I have seen a gorge and hydras or no hydras they were too easy to kill. Now 1v1 they can actually hold their own.
Aliens on a whole are in my opinion still underpowered i.e. missing some upgrades, however, sometimes the right player will go a certain life form mainly fade and will tank for their team. If you want to complain that aliens are OP I’ll complain that the maps are hugely favored to marines.
For pubs, I don't even see a difference in 99% of gorges, they still put hydras in weird spots and still get mowed down just the same. I could live with 30 and no blind effect if the projectile was sped up a bit, the rego is still horrible as ###### while some people in this thread make it sound like a 3 shotting machine in the first 5 mins.
That dude saying gorges in NS1 were used in defence and sat in hives must be high as ###### or never installed NS1, the ability to bhop on a gorge meant there was no chance of being chased down by ramboing marines, especially since they didn't have sprint back then either. They were used a lot more offensively (I remember heal spray not being useless as ###### on marines) and gorge rushing were very legitimate tactics in pub games, esp if you knew where they were trying to relo to.
It still feels like 1 gorge is a speedbump while 2+ gorges can be fort knox in the right spots in pubs.
edit: And what's all this "healer class" and "support unit" bull######, I have never heard these terms for the gorge before and they are horrible. The skulk is not a rogue, the lerk is not a flying rogue, the onos is not a tank, the gorge is not a healer/priest/support, he's a gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2063116:date=Jan 19 2013, 11:10 PM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 19 2013, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That dude saying gorges in NS1 were used in defence and sat in hives must be high as ###### or never installed NS1, the ability to bhop on a gorge meant there was no chance of being chased down by ramboing marines, especially since they didn't have sprint back then either. They were used a lot more offensively (I remember heal spray not being useless as ###### on marines) and gorge rushing were very legitimate tactics in pub games, esp if you knew where they were trying to relo to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
when i read this kind of topics i always wonder what servers people play on, on every regular pub the gorge is still frag food and unless it's a 3 vs 3 or something there is almost no situation you would have a 1 vs 1 with a gorge without backup unless you are playing rambo.
<!--quoteo(post=2063135:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:46 AM:name=Ra1n)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ra1n @ Jan 19 2013, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when i read this kind of topics i always wonder what servers people play on, on every regular pub the gorge is still frag food and unless it's a 3 vs 3 or something there is almost no situation you would have a 1 vs 1 with a gorge without backup unless you are playing rambo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only way a person will die as a gorge is if they PANIC. If your reaction to seeing a marine is "OMFG!" then yeah, you're gonna die. If your reaction is "LOL!" then you're gonna live.
It's real easy now. When you see that marine show his face, aim at him and shoot spit. As soon as you land ONE spit on him, he's blind. Just shuffle to the right or left, and continue to spit at him while he blindly fires in all directions. At this point one of two things will happen. Either he'll retreat being near death (which means you can shoot from range and finish him off in most cases) or you'll kill him. If he gets lucky and takes you down more health than expected, connect with that first spit, then heal for two ticks, hit with spit again, heal two more ticks etc. He'll be blind the entire time, and you'll be able to heal and move yourself into a safer position.
If anyone is dying as a gorge now they need to stop panicking and learn to aim. Don't turn and run, aim and fire. The biggest mistake gorges make is that they are so used to the broken spit mechanic they instinctively flee when they should fight. Especially if you have hydras nearby. Fall back and lure him in. A few spits and you and your hydras will finish him off nicely.
No one should be dying as gorge now unless they get ganked by 3 or more marines. Even with two marines versus one gorge you can just hit each one with spit and LOLslide away while they fire blindly. (Although I have killed some marine pairs solo as well depending on how they engaged.) Gorge is WAY easier now.
<!--quoteo(post=2063275:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:50 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 19 2013, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only way a person will die as a gorge is if they PANIC. If your reaction to seeing a marine is "OMFG!" then yeah, you're gonna die. If your reaction is "LOL!" then you're gonna live.
It's real easy now. When you see that marine show his face, aim at him and shoot spit. As soon as you land ONE spit on him, he's blind. Just shuffle to the right or left, and continue to spit at him while he blindly fires in all directions. At this point one of two things will happen. Either he'll retreat being near death (which means you can shoot from range and finish him off in most cases) or you'll kill him. If he gets lucky and takes you down more health than expected, connect with that first spit, then heal for two ticks, hit with spit again, heal two more ticks etc. He'll be blind the entire time, and you'll be able to heal and move yourself into a safer position.
If anyone is dying as a gorge now they need to stop panicking and learn to aim. Don't turn and run, aim and fire. The biggest mistake gorges make is that they are so used to the broken spit mechanic they instinctively flee when they should fight. Especially if you have hydras nearby. Fall back and lure him in. A few spits and you and your hydras will finish him off nicely.
No one should be dying as gorge now unless they get ganked by 3 or more marines. Even with two marines versus one gorge you can just hit each one with spit and LOLslide away while they fire blindly. (Although I have killed some marine pairs solo as well depending on how they engaged.) Gorge is WAY easier now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its true! Since patch i get all kills, my team just quits and i pwn the hole Marine team. Sometimes i even kill them all while im afk and yesterday i killed 4 marines with 1 spit. U guys need just l2p, its so easy now.
I'm still struggling to figure out how having Gorge spit actually hit Marines and not travel straight through them when shooting at point blank range is a bad thing.
Comments
they grow on infestation, but can survive without it.
Without infestation however they will unroot.
Without infestation however they will unroot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that is for whips. Hydras don't unroot or root at all.
Hydras only grow on their own when placed on infestion. When placed on non-infestation surfaces, the gorge needs to healspray it into maturity. And it doesn't need infestation to survive.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Reduce the damage<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->(and maybe the blinding)
Done.
Great fix btw.
One of the few non hitscan ranged weps in the game. The dodge argument is a big part of it.
you're telling me that 4 shots can kill a solo marine, sure, that'd be pretty bad if you could actually hit things properly. as it stands now, i have no idea if i'll hit or not, also, it takes a clip to kill a gorge more or less... which is over in like a couple seconds.
one marine still kills a gorge for free usually.
The problem is that the gorge is NOT at risk. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the gorge should be limping away from the fight, but surviving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm totally with you on this. The gorge most certainly should have advanced survivability, but it *does*. It runs faster, has an escape ability and can blind the attacker. Those are all the tools a person should need to secure an escape.
My problem isn't the blind, it's the blind *and* the high damage.
Spit has a range of 40 and a 'projectile speed' of 40, and a refire rate of 0.5 - which means he can do 80 DPS. A weapons 3 marine will do 130 DPS.
An armor 3 marine has 280 effective health against a gorge using spit. That means a gorge with perfect accuracy can kill an armor 3 marine in 3.5 seconds. (or 7 spit shots)
A carapace gorge has 450 effective health versus a LMG marine. That means a marine with perfect accuracy can kill a carapace gorge in 3.46 seconds.
Do you see the problem here? The gorge is effectively as strong as a marine in a one-on-one battle, *despite* the fact that the gorge also gets to blind his attacker *AND* heal through some of the damage. That gorge has a weapon with pinpoint accuracy, versus the LMG which has bullet spread. As it stands any alien who can aim will win EVERY battle with a lone marine. The marine will never be able to maintain any kind of accuracy while blinded, so the gorge will make quick work of him.
Should the gorge miss a few shots, he can jump around and self heal while spamming the occasional spit to keep the marine blind. Or he can belly slide away from the blind marine.
Spit damage needs to be significantly cut *OR* the blind needs to be removed. (although even if it was the gorge is still OP) Right now the gorge has it all, and it's just not balanced.
That being said though, I do think a raise in price for the gorge wouldn't be too out of the question, they do quite a lot for 10 res, and gorges who die can easily repurchase themselves to the same status with the cheap initiation cost, with applications in bile bomb rushing over and over etc already being a problem, I think the developers should probably change something in here to alleviate this (but not gorge spit for the baddies) although I guess the reason their cost is so low is because of hydra costs, (maybe raise the base gorge cost to something around 15res-20res and lower hydra costs to 2 res each, as compensation?)
I guess you must really be that amazing?
In NS2 the gorge spit does 40 and blocks marine vision. It is being asked to make it like in NS1. But we can go on crazy hyperboles if you want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 the amount of Gorges got limited by design mostly due to it's "commander nature". So a NS1 Gorge had way more attention/cover from his team compared to a NS2 Gorge. 3 Hive Web helped lessen that dependency as 3 Hives in NS1 actually do what they are supposed to do (Be a game ender).
The NS2 Gorge does not play the center of the team. In NS2 the Kharaa team can win without ever having a single Gorge. Due to this, Gorges tend to be overlooked by teammates, add to that the way smaller nature of NS2 maps (and lack of 3 Hive ability) in general and you have a very Gorge unfriendly environment compared to NS1.
As such i would argue that the Gorge is even less of an support role than it ever had been in NS1, so there is no reason to keep it's combat potential artificial low. After all now we have the option of having several Gorges in a team without hurting it's economy. That option is wasted if we nerf the Gorge to a walking Crag that has no business being in combat. By doing that we would once again promote "single Gorge per team" tactics and that would be a step back.
<!--quoteo(post=2062850:date=Jan 18 2013, 10:49 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 18 2013, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My problem isn't the blind, it's the blind *and* the high damage.
Spit has a range of 40 and a 'projectile speed' of 40, and a refire rate of 0.5 - which means he can do 80 DPS. A weapons 3 marine will do 130 DPS.
An armor 3 marine has 280 effective health against a gorge using spit. That means a gorge with perfect accuracy can kill an armor 3 marine in 3.5 seconds. (or 7 spit shots)
A carapace gorge has 450 effective health versus a LMG marine. That means a marine with perfect accuracy can kill a carapace gorge in 3.46 seconds.
Do you see the problem here? The gorge is effectively as strong as a marine in a one-on-one battle, *despite* the fact that the gorge also gets to blind his attacker *AND* heal through some of the damage. That gorge has a weapon with pinpoint accuracy, versus the LMG which has bullet spread. As it stands any alien who can aim will win EVERY battle with a lone marine. The marine will never be able to maintain any kind of accuracy while blinded, so the gorge will make quick work of him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Gorge can either DPS the Marine down in 3,46 seconds OR he can heal up some damage. Mixing those two throws your whole math off in favor of the Marine, because once the Gorge starts healing, the blind wears off the Marine won't need to dodge anymore, making killing the Gorge just that much easier.
You are also ignoring that the LMG is hitscan while Spit are projectiles. In terms of "landing hits" Spit is way more demanding than the LMG ever could be and tbh i can't take your comment about "bullet spread on the LMG" seriously, unless NS is the first FPS you ever played (which i doubt). You should know that the bullet spread on the hitscan LMG is neglectable compared to the difficulty of hitting a moving target with a projectile based weapon with way lower RoF.
Personally i believe that Gorges should hold their own very well in a 1on1 situation, especially with preparation time. A Gorge is a res investment for the Kharaa team (even more so with Hydras) and as such the Marine team should either be required to invest res on their own (A couple of Medpacks usually do the trick, if that fails combine those with a Shotgun) or approach with overwhelming coordinated force. Meaning: At least 2 Marines rushing and actually focus firing the Gorge (That happens way too seldom but the blame for that lies with Marines not with the Gorge).
But here is a bone for the discussion: Medpacks remove the blind from Gorge spit (Don't they do that already?) and grand short immunity from it or make Gorge spit start out without the blind but at two Hives it gains the blind.
The problem is that the gorge is NOT at risk. I'm totally with you on this. The gorge most certainly should have advanced survivability, but it *does*. It runs faster, has an escape ability and can blind the attacker. Those are all the tools a person should need to secure an escape.
My problem isn't the blind, it's the blind *and* the high damage.
Spit has a range of 40 and a 'projectile speed' of 40, and a refire rate of 0.5 - which means he can do 80 DPS. A weapons 3 marine will do 130 DPS.
An armor 3 marine has 280 effective health against a gorge using spit. That means a gorge with perfect accuracy can kill an armor 3 marine in 3.5 seconds. (or 7 spit shots)
A carapace gorge has 450 effective health versus a LMG marine. That means a marine with perfect accuracy can kill a carapace gorge in 3.46 seconds.
Do you see the problem here? The gorge is effectively as strong as a marine in a one-on-one battle, *despite* the fact that the gorge also gets to blind his attacker *AND* heal through some of the damage. That gorge has a weapon with pinpoint accuracy, versus the LMG which has bullet spread. As it stands any alien who can aim will win EVERY battle with a lone marine. The marine will never be able to maintain any kind of accuracy while blinded, so the gorge will make quick work of him.
Should the gorge miss a few shots, he can jump around and self heal while spamming the occasional spit to keep the marine blind. Or he can belly slide away from the blind marine.
Spit damage needs to be significantly cut *OR* the blind needs to be removed. (although even if it was the gorge is still OP) Right now the gorge has it all, and it's just not balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problem with removing the blind. The only problem I have is that these:
<!--quoteo(post=2062300:date=Jan 17 2013, 06:05 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 17 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>Heal through the damage (heal spray)</li><li>Escape from the attacker (belly slide)</li><li>Blind the attacker (spit)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should not be the gorges only options in a fight with a single LMG marine. It HAS TO be able to win in a one on one with a, singular, stock marine.
Let's remove the blind and leave the damage alone and let it play out. If gorges are still "pwning it up" we can revisit the damage.
I do feel that 40 is too high for the gorge, that 30 was the sweet spot from NS1. So I'd like so see same blinding, but a damage reduction.
Alternatively, I could really appreciate the potential behind a cumulative boost for the gorge, at the cost of more res. So a 15 res gorge that kept the 40 damage and blinding, maybe gained a small speed (10%) and armor (20) boost. That would feel like a more fun class to play than a 'throwaway' 10 res. It's usually no problem to re-gorge at that cost, plus you can drop all three Hydras right at round start, which would be reduced significantly if the gorge cost 15. It would also give gorge kills (as a marine) a bit more kick of awesomeness.
If u cant kill a gorge 1 on 1... problem sits in front of the pc.
If u have a harder time deal with a gorge + hydra then pre patch... GOOD, thats what it should be.. before was lunch time if there was a single hole in the clog wall.
Seriously, Gorge is still an easy target and i hope we get webs soon. So save some tears for webs pls.. because when webs arrive there will be no more single rine jumps over clogs and kills 10 res gorge.
I shoot at gorges <i>and they die.</i> which would be expected. <b>I deal more DPS</b>, and my weapons are <b>easier to use.</b>
I lose 40 of my health and half of my armor when they are <i>good gorges </i>now tho.
Is this a problem?
however, I do die quite often when engaging other aliens by stray gorge spit.
Is a support unit not supposed to support?
Is this a problem?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are also ignoring that the LMG is hitscan while Spit are projectiles. In terms of "landing hits" Spit is way more demanding than the LMG ever could ... the bullet spread on the hitscan LMG is neglectable compared to the difficulty of hitting a moving target with a projectile based weapon with way lower RoF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd hardly call it negligible unless you happen to be right on top of the gorge. From range there is spread. The LMG isn't an automatic pistol. Furthermore, gorge spit speed is 40, hardly slow. I have no problem taking out marines with ease with a gorge. Marines will almost always run right at you, which makes it painfully easy. If a person has problems landing hits with gorge spit then they need more practice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally i believe that Gorges should hold their own very well in a 1on1 situation, especially with preparation time. A Gorge is a res investment for the Kharaa team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but 10 res is hardly an investment. I spend that much on welders in any given time frame. If it was 20, different story entirely. At 10 res the gorge is still a disposable lifeform.
Like I said, I'm all for giving the gorge tools to SURVIVE. I just disagree that survival should mean being able to totally blind his opponent AND THEN kill that opponent. Not as a support lifeform. You can't have it both ways. Either the gorge is a support role alien or he isn't. If he isn't then he shouldn't be knocking off marines with ease.
Then remove the blind effect.
With the way that the gorge has been gutted compared to NS1 I think you could easily argue that it is no longer a "support" unit. It completely pales in comparison to NS1. If they couldn't heal, they would be completely useless. No one wants to play a heal-bot; and as previously stated "bellyslide" is over rated as a defensive option. It is really only useful in responding to threats (x hive is attack and you are at y hive) because of the fact that sliding in a straight line is hardly evasive.
You want the gorge to not be strong in 1 on 1, then you MUST allow it to build crags, shifts and veils in some manner. Allow it to build traps that give it regen and extra energy and a good place to put their hydras so that the foolish marine that chases it into its briar patch is sorry he did. Otherwise the gorge is solely a heal bot that chucks the occasional Bile Bomb between healing the Onos.
I loved playing gorge in NS1. Building defenses in a new hive, dropping RTs, getting the Hive up. Goring was fun. NS2, its still a useful position; but it is hardly needed. Smart gorges can still set up road blocks that will deter all but the most determined marines. They are useful to speed up hive maturity. Anyone playing Onos likes a gorge. But it is nowhere near as rewarding in NS2.
People griped about dying to Walls of Lame, calling it "no skill", "lame", and all other pejorative internet slurs. Now, that it can't build useful buildings, and Hydras are a not Offensive Chambers, and the gorge has to shoot a projectile at the marine, it is still too much? His only option is to run away?
Might as well take the gorge out of the game and bump up the aliens natural regen a bit.
the problem isnt when you have 1v1 gorge vs. marine. there is no OP or balance issue there really.
its when 3 or 4 gorges can rush marine start and while 2 heal 2 are shooting. between the blind and the not-too-shabby rate of fire *spit isnt super fast, but it isn't slow either*, thats potentially a marine dead in short order. with W0/A0, unless their accuracy is perfect on a gorge leaping and dodging around, the marines will die before the gorge will due to all the healing, resulting in said 3 or 4 gorges locking down marine start in short order.
ive seen it happen more than once, even with players that were no slouches with aim. so the whole 'L2P and stop sucking' is irrelevent
secondly, no one with reasonable thinking wants a gorge nerf smack or is calling for them to lose all defensive ability. simply that they were balanced originally around a bad hit calculation, which is now fixed, revealing that when MASSED *not solo gorges, GROUPS of gorges!*, they do a bit too much too fast IN THE EARLY GAME, and need a re-review of statistics and numbers.
late game, there is no problems numericly
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I loved playing gorge in NS1. Building defenses in a new hive, dropping RTs, getting the Hive up. Goring was fun. NS2, its still a useful position; but it is hardly needed. Smart gorges can still set up road blocks that will deter all but the most determined marines. They are useful to speed up hive maturity. Anyone playing Onos likes a gorge. But it is nowhere near as rewarding in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll certainly agree gorge in NS2 is markedly different than in NS1, but we had no alien comm back then.
It's funny because back in NS1 the alien team required more coordination than the marine team. Who was dropping what chamber? Who was saving for the hive? Who can afford to drop an RT?
However I disagree that the gorge has no role in NS2. Before the patch the gorge was very deadly once bile bomb was researched. While a 1 hive gorge wasn't all that useful, neither was a 1 hive Onos/Fade/Lerk for that matter.
Yeah anyone playing Onos likes a gorge, and no one likes being a healbot, but tell that to the marines running around with welders out. Frankly I don't like EITHER mechanic since I don't think it's fun for players on either side to have to run around holding down their heal key while watching the ass end of another player while he causes death and destruction. I'd love to see how it would play out if healing could only be done out of combat for ALL players. (say a 2-3 second window - although DOTs would have to be removed or not count as damage for sake of this)
Has the gorge lost some of his role in NS2 from NS1? Sure. However just giving the gorge the ability to drop chambers is not the way to go IMHO. We should just remove the alien comm and give all gorges access to the team's T-res pool. They can then run around dropping cysts and chambers etc. Some functions they might need to pop into a hive (like sending out a drifter or choosing upgrades), but jumping into a hive would be restricted to gorges alone. Hydras would be restricted like sentries, 3 to a room, so that you can't just dump piles of them in one place.
Frankly I think this would better suit the asymmetry in Natural Selection, and it would give the gorge lots to do.
Aliens on a whole are in my opinion still underpowered i.e. missing some upgrades, however, sometimes the right player will go a certain life form mainly fade and will tank for their team. If you want to complain that aliens are OP I’ll complain that the maps are hugely favored to marines.
And to the one said that gorge rush is op... it was before alsoo.. and?
Skulk rush is also damn strong... and?
If people dont want a good round.. let them rush, they will be bored by this soon and start to play without this cheap trick.
Guys.. if u get hit, just strafe randomly... then the gorge needs luck. Tell ur brains its now also needed to kill gorges.
That dude saying gorges in NS1 were used in defence and sat in hives must be high as ###### or never installed NS1, the ability to bhop on a gorge meant there was no chance of being chased down by ramboing marines, especially since they didn't have sprint back then either. They were used a lot more offensively (I remember heal spray not being useless as ###### on marines) and gorge rushing were very legitimate tactics in pub games, esp if you knew where they were trying to relo to.
It still feels like 1 gorge is a speedbump while 2+ gorges can be fort knox in the right spots in pubs.
edit: And what's all this "healer class" and "support unit" bull######, I have never heard these terms for the gorge before and they are horrible. The skulk is not a rogue, the lerk is not a flying rogue, the onos is not a tank, the gorge is not a healer/priest/support, he's a gorge.
Amen, brother.
It's real easy now. When you see that marine show his face, aim at him and shoot spit. As soon as you land ONE spit on him, he's blind. Just shuffle to the right or left, and continue to spit at him while he blindly fires in all directions. At this point one of two things will happen. Either he'll retreat being near death (which means you can shoot from range and finish him off in most cases) or you'll kill him. If he gets lucky and takes you down more health than expected, connect with that first spit, then heal for two ticks, hit with spit again, heal two more ticks etc. He'll be blind the entire time, and you'll be able to heal and move yourself into a safer position.
If anyone is dying as a gorge now they need to stop panicking and learn to aim. Don't turn and run, aim and fire. The biggest mistake gorges make is that they are so used to the broken spit mechanic they instinctively flee when they should fight. Especially if you have hydras nearby. Fall back and lure him in. A few spits and you and your hydras will finish him off nicely.
No one should be dying as gorge now unless they get ganked by 3 or more marines. Even with two marines versus one gorge you can just hit each one with spit and LOLslide away while they fire blindly. (Although I have killed some marine pairs solo as well depending on how they engaged.) Gorge is WAY easier now.
It's real easy now. When you see that marine show his face, aim at him and shoot spit. As soon as you land ONE spit on him, he's blind. Just shuffle to the right or left, and continue to spit at him while he blindly fires in all directions. At this point one of two things will happen. Either he'll retreat being near death (which means you can shoot from range and finish him off in most cases) or you'll kill him. If he gets lucky and takes you down more health than expected, connect with that first spit, then heal for two ticks, hit with spit again, heal two more ticks etc. He'll be blind the entire time, and you'll be able to heal and move yourself into a safer position.
If anyone is dying as a gorge now they need to stop panicking and learn to aim. Don't turn and run, aim and fire. The biggest mistake gorges make is that they are so used to the broken spit mechanic they instinctively flee when they should fight. Especially if you have hydras nearby. Fall back and lure him in. A few spits and you and your hydras will finish him off nicely.
No one should be dying as gorge now unless they get ganked by 3 or more marines. Even with two marines versus one gorge you can just hit each one with spit and LOLslide away while they fire blindly. (Although I have killed some marine pairs solo as well depending on how they engaged.) Gorge is WAY easier now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its true!
Since patch i get all kills, my team just quits and i pwn the hole Marine team.
Sometimes i even kill them all while im afk and yesterday i killed 4 marines with 1 spit.
U guys need just l2p, its so easy now.