<!--quoteo(post=2062030:date=Jan 17 2013, 07:41 AM:name=KaiAllardLiao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaiAllardLiao @ Jan 17 2013, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the issue is that for their health and healing, if 3 or 4 gorges rush the marine base at the very beginning of a game spamming spit and heal spray, between the damage and blind they will frequently massacre the marines, while 4 marines focusfiring one of said gorges will liekly not quite manage to kill it before they start dropping like flies. this is without considering skulks in with the group. seen it happen more than once since the patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, an alien team using teamwork to close in and destroy the marine team before they can get going is overpowered?
I got a team to do this when spit was broken, and we still pulled it off.
Hell, I get massacres (that's the collective noun I'm using) of skulks to bum rush the marine start all the time.
And I would counter that by immediate shotgun research and bouncing.
Or if you want to get really angry, you can cap healing received so that four Gorges don't stack.
However, spit is finally useful... don't ruin it so quickly.
the bottom line is that gorge spit before this patch was AWFUL. even point blank you'd only hit 10% of the time; often puzzlingly difficult to reg a hit on stationary players. this was by far the most glaringly obvious issue in the game, ergo everyone should have anticipated this gorge buff instead of getting complacent with broken gorge combat.
<!--quoteo(post=2062030:date=Jan 17 2013, 06:41 AM:name=KaiAllardLiao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaiAllardLiao @ Jan 17 2013, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the issue is that for their health and healing, if 3 or 4 gorges rush the marine base at the very beginning of a game spamming spit and heal spray, between the damage and blind they will frequently massacre the marines, while 4 marines focusfiring one of said gorges will liekly not quite manage to kill it before they start dropping like flies. this is without considering skulks in with the group. seen it happen more than once since the patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like an example of a coordinated group with skill killing an uncoordinated group of noobs. If you dodge and fire at the farthest back skulk the others probably won't turn around to heal it in time. Start of the game it takes about 29 lmg bullets to kill a gorge, if you can't get about half of your shots into a large slow target the problem is probably you.
I do agree however that a small damage reduction for spit wouldn't be a terrible idea.
<!--quoteo(post=2062003:date=Jan 17 2013, 07:56 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pfft, Left 4 Dead needs to be told a lot! I have rarely been so disappointed with a game. It can't hold a welder to NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
L4D2 is really great for a teambased multiplayer, It just has a really high skill ceiling. It isn't easy to be good at.
<!--quoteo(post=2062106:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:46 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 17 2013, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->L4D2 is really great for a teambased multiplayer, It just has a really high skill ceiling. It isn't easy to be good at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2062107:date=Jan 17 2013, 10:48 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And is grossly imbalanced toward the Survivors.
"You play both sides" does not make it balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, to be fair the infected side isn't there to "win"
It's about the distance you go as survivors, they're actually the primary team. The infected team is only there to slow the enemy, and reduce their potential score. Either way we're going off topic and that isn't fair to the OP. Agree to disagree
As far as spit goes, I don't consider spit overpowered. I consider the gorge too good for its price. It needs to be either toned down a bit on all fronts or cost more than 10 res.
<!--quoteo(post=2062103:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:44 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 17 2013, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This sounds like an example of a coordinated group with skill killing an uncoordinated group of noobs. If you dodge and fire at the farthest back skulk the others probably won't turn around to heal it in time. Start of the game it takes about 29 lmg bullets to kill a gorge, if you can't get about half of your shots into a large slow target the problem is probably you.
I do agree however that a small damage reduction for spit wouldn't be a terrible idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if any fix is needed i would prefer a removal of the spammy 'blind' effect before taking measures to reduce damage... 40 damage is virtually nothing against armor upgrades.
Pre-236/237, I remember jumping in a vent as a gorge to spit a marine camping in there. Fired off 6 point blank shots, all of them clearly hitting the marine model on screen, but none of them actually hit.
<!--quoteo(post=2062049:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:16 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Jan 17 2013, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the bottom line is that gorge spit before this patch was AWFUL. even point blank you'd only hit 10% of the time; often puzzlingly difficult to reg a hit on stationary players. this was by far the most glaringly obvious issue in the game, ergo everyone should have anticipated this gorge buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I totally agree that the mechanic was broken. What I also say is that they didn't understand how OP the gorge was *BECAUSE* the mechanic was broken.
In short, you can't balance something that is broken.
The gorge needs to have its numbers revisited for sake of balance, and I'm sure the devs know that.
<!--quoteo(post=2062149:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:37 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 17 2013, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pre-236/237, I remember jumping in a vent as a gorge to spit a marine camping in there. Fired off 6 point blank shots, all of them clearly hitting the marine model on screen, but none of them actually hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They fixed the hitreg on it, thats all, spit was not even buffed. The reason why people are so in flames over spit is because it actually is making contact now with marines and it has an obnoxious unwanted moneyshot that creams your face so you're blind with gorgewater.
<!--quoteo(post=2062154:date=Jan 17 2013, 01:44 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 17 2013, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge needs to have its numbers revisited for sake of balance, and I'm sure the devs know that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carefully, delicately.
A gorge (10 pRes) should be able to hold his own against a single marine. Add in a shotgun, and that is a different story. Add in a second marine, also a different story.
Gotta sift through all the people that took gorges for granted now whining that they lost their free kills and remove them from the equation first.
There is little enough incentive to play gorge, make them worthless in one on ones and even fewer people will play them.
A gorge (10 pRes) should be able to hold his own against a single marine. Add in a shotgun, and that is a different story. Add in a second marine, also a different story.
Gotta sift through all the people that took gorges for granted now whining that they lost their free kills and remove them from the equation first.
There is little enough incentive to play gorge, make them worthless in one on ones and even fewer people will play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lemme get this straight, a gorge, a support unit, a healer. should be able to hold his own against an an infantry marine ? no offensive but come on really ? and hold his own isn't quite the right string of words, if a medic unit is supposed to be strong enough to fight infantry then gaming must be going backwards. now a days im more concerned fighting a gorge then a skulk, gorges were no where near taken for granted, you have any idea how many games have ended because of the gorge bile bombing base from sniper long rage or even running and jumping around in base bile bombing? so dont spread that non sense. ive been playing since ns1 so my aim and experience is pretty good. if me and my teammates cant fend off a gorge & hydra rush in the first minute you can bet your @$$ it's not a skill related issue. it doesn't even make sense a gorge can drop hydras anywhere especially when they are free without any cysts, if marines were able to drop turrets in an alien base without any need for power or facility you can imagine the amount of people who would complain. gorge <b>needs </b>to be tweaked. It wasn't as apparent before because the hit registration wasn't accurate.
and on a side note people need to realize the game's scale-ability is very off. 5 vs 5 aliens have more advantage and as you go up marines start to have more advantage. a gorge rush in a small game is extremely difficult to fight off compared to the 9 vs 9 games.
<!--quoteo(post=2062192:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:46 PM:name=proteinstain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (proteinstain @ Jan 17 2013, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lemme get this straight, a gorge, a support unit, a healer. should be able to hold his own against an an infantry marine ? no offensive but come on really ? and hold his own isn't quite the right string of words, if a medic unit is supposed to be strong enough to fight infantry then gaming must be going backwards. now a days im more concerned fighting a gorge then a skulk, gorges were no where near taken for granted, you have any idea how many games have ended because of the gorge bile bombing base from sniper long rage. so dont spread that non sense. ive been playing since ns1 so my aim and experience is pretty good. if me and my teammates cant fend off a gorge & hydra rush in the first minute you can bet your @$$ it's not a skill related issue. it doesn't even make sense a gorge can drop hydras anywhere especially when they are free without any cysts, if marines were able to drop turrets in an alien base without any need for power or facility you can imagine the amount of people who would complain. gorge <b>needs </b>to be tweaked. It wasn't apparent before because the hit registration wasn't accurate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggest you read what I posted again.
A single, lone, only one, gorge (10 pRes) should be able to fend off a single, lone, only one, marine (0 pRes).
Not more than one, but a single one.
Not you and your buddies vs a single gorge; you alone vs the gorge.
Just in a 1 on 1, especially if the marine only has an LMG.
Lets stop the hyperbole of marines getting abilities they don't have, won't have, never had.
<!--quoteo(post=2062196:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:52 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggest you read what I posted again.
A single, lone, only one, gorge (10 pRes) should be able to fend off a single, lone, only one, marine (0 pRes).
Not more than one, but a single one.
Not you and your buddies vs a single gorge; you alone vs the gorge.
Just in a 1 on 1, especially if the marine only has an LMG.
Lets stop the hyperbole of marines getting abilities they don't have, won't have, never had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is exactly what im correcting. a support unit should not be able to fend off a single marine, at least not easily. that's why it is a support/heal unit. that's it's role. if it has 3 hydras built up around it supporting it fine, but a one on one fight should not be that easy for the gorge to kill marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2062197:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:54 PM:name=proteinstain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (proteinstain @ Jan 17 2013, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is exactly what im correcting. a support unit should not be able to fend off a single marine, at least not easily. that's why it is a support/heal unit. that's it's role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "OP Gorge" status can't last long anyway.. as soon as rines get a/w upgrades and, most importantly, shotguns/jetpacks, Gorges are doomed
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->should be <b>able</b> to hold his own<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
being able to do something, doesn't mean it works every time. I agree that a gorge should have roughly 30-50% chance of winning a one-on-one.
and honestly, a gorge is slow and big as hell, even with more powerfull spit, he's still cannon fodder...
<!--quoteo(post=2062197:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:54 PM:name=proteinstain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (proteinstain @ Jan 17 2013, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is exactly what im correcting. a support unit should not be able to fend off a single marine, at least not easily. that's why it is a support/heal unit. that's it's role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you remove the ability for a "support unit" to defend it's self from the smallest conflict possible in the game, you cripple it to the point no one will play it.
It's not as if I am asking for a MAC to be able to kill skulks now; a MAC is truly a "support unit". Gorges are more than a support unit, or they would not have bile bomb, or spit.
In NS1 a gorge could defend it's self from a lone marine, there is no reason to go backward.
Now if we were talking about the old NS1 version of Healing Spray that could easily kill marines 1 on 1, you might have a point. But this is spit, which is an attack power.
Even the Medic in TF2 can kill other players in a 1 on 1.
<!--quoteo(post=2062198:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:58 PM:name=buhehe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (buhehe @ Jan 17 2013, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The "OP Gorge" status can't last long anyway.. as soon as rines get a/w upgrades and, most importantly, shotguns/jetpacks, Gorges are doomed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's where scaling comes in, upgrades come in, bile bomb comes in, and the future gorge tunneling ability. it doesnt mean gorge should be op in the beginning and useless in the end. it needs scaling, just like marines are/have. weapons 1 2 3, armor 1 2 3.
and the gorge bile bomb is extremely damaging to exo's. jetpacks should have big advantage against gorges thats why it takes so long and cost so much to get them. By then their will usually be whips and crags the gorges fight along with that still make it sometimes difficult to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=2062202:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:01 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you remove the ability for a "support unit" to defend it's self from the smallest conflict possible in the game, you cripple it to the point no one will play it.
It's not as if I am asking for a MAC to be able to kill skulks now; a MAC is truly a "support unit". Gorges are more than a support unit, or they would not have bile bomb, or spit.
In NS1 a gorge could defend it's self from a lone marine, there is no reason to go backward.
Now if we were talking about the old NS1 version of Healing Spray that could easily kill marines 1 on 1, you might have a point. But this is spit, which is an attack power.
Even the Medic in TF2 can kill other players in a 1 on 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
defend its self is fine, but it should not be with ease as it is now in ns2. true about tf2, but those have severely different mechanics/roles. and even then. a medic verse most other offensive roles will be a struggle. it doesn't mean it cant defend its'self, but should not be an equal fight.
<!--quoteo(post=2062203:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:02 PM:name=proteinstain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (proteinstain @ Jan 17 2013, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->defend its self is fine, but it should not be with ease as it is now in ns2. true about tf2, but those have severely different mechanics/roles. and even then. a medic verse most other offensive roles will be a struggle. it doesn't mean it cant defend its'self, but should not be an equal fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And marines "shouldn't" be running around alone either.
Remove gorge's legs so it will need to crawl all over the map very slow and be an even easier target! Problem solved!
Come on ppl, i was tired to get killed by 1 average marine while defending a hive or rt poins like nano grid even with 3 hydras and clogs. This was ridiculous and now it has been corrected.
Maybe the only chage needed is adding bullet drop to the spit, but not so severe like bile bomb.
<!--quoteo(post=2062206:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:07 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And marines "shouldn't" be running around alone either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
neither "should" a gorge.
a lone marine has much more merit being running around alone then a gorge does. and the game dynamics dont always allow/call for marines to always be together 24/7. thats where ninja marine comes in or one defending an rt comes in, etc. same goes for aliens. so that "shouldnt be alone" is irrevalent. we can apply that to anything. marines shouldnt have left power undefended, aliens shouldnt have left upgrade undefened, aliens shouldnt have focused only on one side of the map, marines should learn how to aim better. etc etc. its an unproductive way of analyzing things.
<!--quoteo(post=2062209:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:08 PM:name=proteinstain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (proteinstain @ Jan 17 2013, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->neither should a gorge.
a lone marine has much more merit being a lone then a gorge does. and the game dynamics dont always allow/call for marines to always be together 24/7. thats where ninja marine comes in or one defending an rt comes in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where you are wrong.
Gorges are alone often, securing a second hive, helping RTs and Hives build, hiding around a corner to heal attacking skulks.
That lone marine is generally called a rambo or skulk food.
<!--quoteo(post=2062210:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:11 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's where you are wrong.
Gorges are alone often, securing a second hive, helping RTs and Hives build, hiding around a corner to heal attacking skulks.
That lone marine is generally called a rambo or skulk food.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no.
in that scenario gorges are generally not alone, skulks often hatch near and pass by or ask for heal. they're doing their job if they are alone or otherwise. regardless they are able to do so and being alone, near aliens, having skulks stay and defend, all have their pros and cons. that hasnt changed all that is is circumstance.
a marine may have to stay behind and build just like a gorge may have to stay behind and healspray a hive.
you stated a marine shouldnt be going lone wolf, which isnt true and if i applied the same logic to a gorge the same rules of thought could apply. it all depends on circumstance. but generally speaking a gorge isnt running around alone, when he gorges he has a goal of either building up a hive, defending a certain area, or following higher level lifeforms. he isnt just running around confident if he runs into a marine he'll most likely be fine.
<!--quoteo(post=2061406:date=Jan 16 2013, 09:44 AM:name=Shino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shino @ Jan 16 2013, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I saw a gorge go 28-1 in a pub as a gorge. He had more frags than higher lifeforms on our team (fades/onos)
I think it's now impossible to kill a gorge+3 hydras now. If you want to kill a gorge, commanders are going to have to medspam.
The game is already imbalanced towards aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can I just say, this post is almost admirable in its swiftness of verdict.
How long was this created after the patch? After how many games? Trying to be too relevant too soon?
I'm fine with the damage the gorge can do now, that doesn't really feel OP at all. But the blinding effect has got to go... I haven't been able to see a goddamn thing in half my fights lately because of the overabundance of gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=2062264:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:03 PM:name=ritualsacrifice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ritualsacrifice @ Jan 17 2013, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fine with the damage the gorge can do now, that doesn't really feel OP at all. But the blinding effect has got to go... I haven't been able to see a goddamn thing in half my fights lately because of the overabundance of gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to see the cost of a gorge bumped up to 20 and give him 3 free hydras, with a cost only if he decides to move them forward or rebuild after they die.
<!--quoteo(post=2062192:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:46 PM:name=proteinstain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (proteinstain @ Jan 17 2013, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lemme get this straight, a gorge, a support unit, a healer. should be able to hold his own against an an infantry marine ? no offensive but come on really ? and hold his own isn't quite the right string of words, if a medic unit is supposed to be strong enough to fight infantry then gaming must be going backwards. now a days im more concerned fighting a gorge then a skulk, gorges were no where near taken for granted, you have any idea how many games have ended because of the gorge bile bombing base from sniper long rage or even running and jumping around in base bile bombing? so dont spread that non sense. ive been playing since ns1 so my aim and experience is pretty good. if me and my teammates cant fend off a gorge & hydra rush in the first minute you can bet your @$$ it's not a skill related issue. it doesn't even make sense a gorge can drop hydras anywhere especially when they are free without any cysts, if marines were able to drop turrets in an alien base without any need for power or facility you can imagine the amount of people who would complain. gorge <b>needs </b>to be tweaked. It wasn't as apparent before because the hit registration wasn't accurate.
and on a side note people need to realize the game's scale-ability is very off. 5 vs 5 aliens have more advantage and as you go up marines start to have more advantage. a gorge rush in a small game is extremely difficult to fight off compared to the 9 vs 9 games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a former NS1 player, would you prefer we go back to the days of Offensive Chamber halls? I'm partial to spitting on a hive so that teammates can use the MC to get back. Also, hydras cost 3pres a piece with a stamina cost.
<!--quoteo(post=2062266:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:09 PM:name=amoral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amoral @ Jan 17 2013, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stop getting spit on son.
dodge duck dip dive and dodge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Step to the left. Step to the right. Why doesn't anybody listen to this sound advice?
<!--quoteo(post=2062280:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:30 PM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 17 2013, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see the cost of a gorge bumped up to 20 and give him 3 free hydras, with a cost only if he decides to move them forward or rebuild after they die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you do this? I mean, honestly, extrapolate on why these changes would be good.
Comments
So, an alien team using teamwork to close in and destroy the marine team before they can get going is overpowered?
I got a team to do this when spit was broken, and we still pulled it off.
Hell, I get massacres (that's the collective noun I'm using) of skulks to bum rush the marine start all the time.
And I would counter that by immediate shotgun research and bouncing.
Or if you want to get really angry, you can cap healing received so that four Gorges don't stack.
However, spit is finally useful... don't ruin it so quickly.
the bottom line is that gorge spit before this patch was AWFUL. even point blank you'd only hit 10% of the time; often puzzlingly difficult to reg a hit on stationary players. this was by far the most glaringly obvious issue in the game, ergo everyone should have anticipated this gorge buff instead of getting complacent with broken gorge combat.
This sounds like an example of a coordinated group with skill killing an uncoordinated group of noobs. If you dodge and fire at the farthest back skulk the others probably won't turn around to heal it in time. Start of the game it takes about 29 lmg bullets to kill a gorge, if you can't get about half of your shots into a large slow target the problem is probably you.
I do agree however that a small damage reduction for spit wouldn't be a terrible idea.
L4D2 is really great for a teambased multiplayer, It just has a really high skill ceiling. It isn't easy to be good at.
And is grossly imbalanced toward the Survivors.
"You play both sides" does not make it balanced.
"You play both sides" does not make it balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, to be fair the infected side isn't there to "win"
It's about the distance you go as survivors, they're actually the primary team. The infected team is only there to slow the enemy, and reduce their potential score. Either way we're going off topic and that isn't fair to the OP. Agree to disagree
As far as spit goes, I don't consider spit overpowered. I consider the gorge too good for its price. It needs to be either toned down a bit on all fronts or cost more than 10 res.
I do agree however that a small damage reduction for spit wouldn't be a terrible idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if any fix is needed i would prefer a removal of the spammy 'blind' effect before taking measures to reduce damage... 40 damage is virtually nothing against armor upgrades.
In short, you can't balance something that is broken.
The gorge needs to have its numbers revisited for sake of balance, and I'm sure the devs know that.
They fixed the hitreg on it, thats all, spit was not even buffed. The reason why people are so in flames over spit is because it actually is making contact now with marines and it has an obnoxious unwanted moneyshot that creams your face so you're blind with gorgewater.
Carefully, delicately.
A gorge (10 pRes) should be able to hold his own against a single marine. Add in a shotgun, and that is a different story. Add in a second marine, also a different story.
Gotta sift through all the people that took gorges for granted now whining that they lost their free kills and remove them from the equation first.
There is little enough incentive to play gorge, make them worthless in one on ones and even fewer people will play them.
A gorge (10 pRes) should be able to hold his own against a single marine. Add in a shotgun, and that is a different story. Add in a second marine, also a different story.
Gotta sift through all the people that took gorges for granted now whining that they lost their free kills and remove them from the equation first.
There is little enough incentive to play gorge, make them worthless in one on ones and even fewer people will play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lemme get this straight, a gorge, a support unit, a healer. should be able to hold his own against an an infantry marine ? no offensive but come on really ? and hold his own isn't quite the right string of words, if a medic unit is supposed to be strong enough to fight infantry then gaming must be going backwards. now a days im more concerned fighting a gorge then a skulk, gorges were no where near taken for granted, you have any idea how many games have ended because of the gorge bile bombing base from sniper long rage or even running and jumping around in base bile bombing? so dont spread that non sense. ive been playing since ns1 so my aim and experience is pretty good. if me and my teammates cant fend off a gorge & hydra rush in the first minute you can bet your @$$ it's not a skill related issue. it doesn't even make sense a gorge can drop hydras anywhere especially when they are free without any cysts, if marines were able to drop turrets in an alien base without any need for power or facility you can imagine the amount of people who would complain. gorge <b>needs </b>to be tweaked. It wasn't as apparent before because the hit registration wasn't accurate.
and on a side note people need to realize the game's scale-ability is very off. 5 vs 5 aliens have more advantage and as you go up marines start to have more advantage. a gorge rush in a small game is extremely difficult to fight off compared to the 9 vs 9 games.
I suggest you read what I posted again.
A single, lone, only one, gorge (10 pRes) should be able to fend off a single, lone, only one, marine (0 pRes).
Not more than one, but a single one.
Not you and your buddies vs a single gorge; you alone vs the gorge.
Just in a 1 on 1, especially if the marine only has an LMG.
Lets stop the hyperbole of marines getting abilities they don't have, won't have, never had.
A single, lone, only one, gorge (10 pRes) should be able to fend off a single, lone, only one, marine (0 pRes).
Not more than one, but a single one.
Not you and your buddies vs a single gorge; you alone vs the gorge.
Just in a 1 on 1, especially if the marine only has an LMG.
Lets stop the hyperbole of marines getting abilities they don't have, won't have, never had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is exactly what im correcting. a support unit should not be able to fend off a single marine, at least not easily. that's why it is a support/heal unit. that's it's role. if it has 3 hydras built up around it supporting it fine, but a one on one fight should not be that easy for the gorge to kill marine.
The "OP Gorge" status can't last long anyway.. as soon as rines get a/w upgrades and, most importantly, shotguns/jetpacks, Gorges are doomed
I quote for the sake of this argument:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->should be <b>able</b> to hold his own<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
being able to do something, doesn't mean it works every time. I agree that a gorge should have roughly 30-50% chance of winning a one-on-one.
and honestly, a gorge is slow and big as hell, even with more powerfull spit, he's still cannon fodder...
If you remove the ability for a "support unit" to defend it's self from the smallest conflict possible in the game, you cripple it to the point no one will play it.
It's not as if I am asking for a MAC to be able to kill skulks now; a MAC is truly a "support unit". Gorges are more than a support unit, or they would not have bile bomb, or spit.
In NS1 a gorge could defend it's self from a lone marine, there is no reason to go backward.
Now if we were talking about the old NS1 version of Healing Spray that could easily kill marines 1 on 1, you might have a point. But this is spit, which is an attack power.
Even the Medic in TF2 can kill other players in a 1 on 1.
that's where scaling comes in, upgrades come in, bile bomb comes in, and the future gorge tunneling ability. it doesnt mean gorge should be op in the beginning and useless in the end. it needs scaling, just like marines are/have. weapons 1 2 3, armor 1 2 3.
and the gorge bile bomb is extremely damaging to exo's. jetpacks should have big advantage against gorges thats why it takes so long and cost so much to get them. By then their will usually be whips and crags the gorges fight along with that still make it sometimes difficult to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=2062202:date=Jan 17 2013, 04:01 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you remove the ability for a "support unit" to defend it's self from the smallest conflict possible in the game, you cripple it to the point no one will play it.
It's not as if I am asking for a MAC to be able to kill skulks now; a MAC is truly a "support unit". Gorges are more than a support unit, or they would not have bile bomb, or spit.
In NS1 a gorge could defend it's self from a lone marine, there is no reason to go backward.
Now if we were talking about the old NS1 version of Healing Spray that could easily kill marines 1 on 1, you might have a point. But this is spit, which is an attack power.
Even the Medic in TF2 can kill other players in a 1 on 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
defend its self is fine, but it should not be with ease as it is now in ns2. true about tf2, but those have severely different mechanics/roles. and even then. a medic verse most other offensive roles will be a struggle. it doesn't mean it cant defend its'self, but should not be an equal fight.
And marines "shouldn't" be running around alone either.
Problem solved!
Come on ppl, i was tired to get killed by 1 average marine while defending a hive or rt poins like nano grid even with 3 hydras and clogs. This was ridiculous and now it has been corrected.
Maybe the only chage needed is adding bullet drop to the spit, but not so severe like bile bomb.
neither "should" a gorge.
a lone marine has much more merit being running around alone then a gorge does. and the game dynamics dont always allow/call for marines to always be together 24/7. thats where ninja marine comes in or one defending an rt comes in, etc. same goes for aliens. so that "shouldnt be alone" is irrevalent. we can apply that to anything. marines shouldnt have left power undefended, aliens shouldnt have left upgrade undefened, aliens shouldnt have focused only on one side of the map, marines should learn how to aim better. etc etc. its an unproductive way of analyzing things.
a lone marine has much more merit being a lone then a gorge does. and the game dynamics dont always allow/call for marines to always be together 24/7. thats where ninja marine comes in or one defending an rt comes in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where you are wrong.
Gorges are alone often, securing a second hive, helping RTs and Hives build, hiding around a corner to heal attacking skulks.
That lone marine is generally called a rambo or skulk food.
Gorges are alone often, securing a second hive, helping RTs and Hives build, hiding around a corner to heal attacking skulks.
That lone marine is generally called a rambo or skulk food.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no.
in that scenario gorges are generally not alone, skulks often hatch near and pass by or ask for heal. they're doing their job if they are alone or otherwise. regardless they are able to do so and being alone, near aliens, having skulks stay and defend, all have their pros and cons. that hasnt changed all that is is circumstance.
a marine may have to stay behind and build just like a gorge may have to stay behind and healspray a hive.
you stated a marine shouldnt be going lone wolf, which isnt true and if i applied the same logic to a gorge the same rules of thought could apply. it all depends on circumstance. but generally speaking a gorge isnt running around alone, when he gorges he has a goal of either building up a hive, defending a certain area, or following higher level lifeforms. he isnt just running around confident if he runs into a marine he'll most likely be fine.
I think it's now impossible to kill a gorge+3 hydras now. If you want to kill a gorge, commanders are going to have to medspam.
The game is already imbalanced towards aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can I just say, this post is almost admirable in its swiftness of verdict.
How long was this created after the patch? After how many games? Trying to be too relevant too soon?
stop getting spit on son.
dodge duck dip dive and dodge
and on a side note people need to realize the game's scale-ability is very off. 5 vs 5 aliens have more advantage and as you go up marines start to have more advantage. a gorge rush in a small game is extremely difficult to fight off compared to the 9 vs 9 games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a former NS1 player, would you prefer we go back to the days of Offensive Chamber halls? I'm partial to spitting on a hive so that teammates can use the MC to get back. Also, hydras cost 3pres a piece with a stamina cost.
<!--quoteo(post=2062266:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:09 PM:name=amoral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amoral @ Jan 17 2013, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stop getting spit on son.
dodge duck dip dive and dodge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Step to the left. Step to the right. Why doesn't anybody listen to this sound advice?
<!--quoteo(post=2062280:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:30 PM:name=BentRing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BentRing @ Jan 17 2013, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see the cost of a gorge bumped up to 20 and give him 3 free hydras, with a cost only if he decides to move them forward or rebuild after they die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you do this? I mean, honestly, extrapolate on why these changes would be good.