In their effort to turn Regeneration into a viable alternative to Carapace, I feel that UWE have shot a little bit over their goal. It's almost ridiculously effective now. If you find a proper middle-ground between the old and the new Regeneration things will be A-OK. Crags are healing too fast for my taste to the point where Gorges become unemployed. Tone it down a little and make the kick-in time for personal Regeneration a little bit longer (but not as long as 228) and we are all fine.
The other big change comes with the 100% invisibility. I think the invisibility should only be 100% when the alien is standing still. Make it 95% or 97.5% while moving, so a really-really good marine has a tiny chance of seeing a skulk sneaking straight towards him.
The public stats are behaving that way because a) the marine side is much more likely to be stacked with rookies (green names) - guess what happens if you pitch an experienced team against first-timers? Surprise-surprise! The pros win! b) the changes mentioned above c) the game seems to forgive unsocial alien team behaviour much more than clueless/unsocial marine behaviour. What I'm saying is, if you idle around uselessly as a skulk and your khamm barely holds 3 rts + 2nd hive you will still win because some time 1 player will make it to onos (if not by tres sponsored egg) and suddenly the knot breaks and the team will make the breakthrough they would never have made due to lack of teamwork... suddenly that annoying crucial pg in front of your hive goes down, suddenly that marine base rush is successful because of the Onos. Sure, the team could have won the game 30min before by combining gorges, lerks and skulks and TIMING + COOPERATION FFS, but nobody talked and nobody listened...
A marine team that behaves that way is dead in the water because it makes no difference if you equip them with welders for 5res or dual-exos for 75res... a rookie will take it, walk solo into some whips/skulks and die. Very often you have exactly 1 try. When that is wasted, you just lost another public game.
For a marine comm, his eyes on the ground are an essential source of battlefield intel. It's simply no fun if you got 7 single player rambos on your team... you need smart, communicative, social, map-aware players who can think on their own and pass on crucial information (e.g. mainbase power is critical!) The alien comm needs his players much less. Building is (almost) completely depending on the khamm alone.
I'm pretty sure this patch makes professional matches 50-50 now. But you don't get that kind of marine cooperation on public servers. There, you are lucky if 1 out of 8 players can be arsed to use his headset.
<!--quoteo(post=2028088:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:56 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 18 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't really mind the new crag/regen...
it just gets exacerbated by onos drops off 2 hives which is practically impossible to stop on pub servers.
onos drop = alien take >50% of the map because marine cant deal with fast onos = alien get enough resources to spam upgrades, crags and more onos
onos drop urgently needs to be fixed... if it was 3 hive then it might be possible to fight because you can deny their 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a little new to this game but I've played 30h now and I guess the fast onos isn't the only problem. When the alines get out that onos it's often more that went wrong on marines side right from the start.. Commanders build lots of sentries, the marines can't hold the extractors, the aliens got map control... all this together and the fact, that most people don't really now that they have to kill that gorge or the commander needs to get jetpacks, flamethrowers and shotguns and you get one onos killing the entire marine team and winning the game...
Marinecommanders are often not aggressive enough, they do not now that they have to get some jetpacks or exos instead of sentries and the marines do not know that they have to defend important points/extractors...they run most of the time somewhere around the map without being of any use...
When I command myself I always have problems to get my marines do what I want...they directly leave the rooms I want to be defended, they run somewhere I don't want them and so on...
All I want to say is: In a game where both teams are equally skilled and both teams now how this game works, the aliens will have a hard time to get this onos out without being under hard pressure of the marines :)
But I can be wrong because I haven't played a lot :D
You can talk about fast onos, not fast onos, op regen not op regen. The fact is i stopped playing the game cause, hopping in an onos and got 34-3 kill ratio ( i am a medicore player)is not fun anymore. Shooting an onos with a basic weapon, or any other weapon and unable to kill it, is not fun anymore, so i am leaving after half year of playing. Maybe it is balanced for pro players, but i am not one of them, and never will.
<!--quoteo(post=2027751:date=Nov 18 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Haroldcooper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haroldcooper @ Nov 18 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you explain bit deeper about lights effects<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Haroldcooper - I mean if the power node is down you will be 95-100% invisible but with the power up you will be 75-90%. Maybe if the lights are out the only way that they can see you is if a Marine / Exosuit shines a flashlight directly at you.
The way I see it is that there is no need for silence compared to Invisibilty way it is. When you are invisible you are silent anyways so what's the point. Maybe if you add a <i>little</i> bit of noise when you are invisible
<!--quoteo(post=2028169:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:44 PM:name=Paul-Hewson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Paul-Hewson @ Nov 18 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Com shouldn't be able to drop the massive weapons each side (onos/exo), only player buyable class. That should prevent fast game breaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, the more reasonable solution is to make res precious, even in late-game.
<!--quoteo(post=2028168:date=Nov 18 2012, 09:44 PM:name=WonderWaffles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WonderWaffles @ Nov 18 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Haroldcooper - I mean if the power node is down you will be 95-100% invisible but with the power up you will be 75-90%. Maybe if the lights are out the only way that they can see you is if a Marine / Exosuit shines a flashlight directly at you.
The way I see it is that there is no need for silence compared to Invisibilty way it is. When you are invisible you are silent anyways so what's the point. Maybe if you add a <i>little</i> bit of noise when you are invisible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because you're slow as hell when invisible... silence can allow you to run around at full speed in 'the next room' without them knowing allowing for easier flanking where camo is more waiting for them to come to you.
<!--quoteo(post=2028105:date=Nov 18 2012, 08:11 PM:name=Nyuu?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nyuu? @ Nov 18 2012, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a little new to this game but I've played 30h now and I guess the fast onos isn't the only problem. When the alines get out that onos it's often more that went wrong on marines side right from the start.. Commanders build lots of sentries, the marines can't hold the extractors, the aliens got map control... all this together and the fact, that most people don't really now that they have to kill that gorge or the commander needs to get jetpacks, flamethrowers and shotguns and you get one onos killing the entire marine team and winning the game...
Marinecommanders are often not aggressive enough, they do not now that they have to get some jetpacks or exos instead of sentries and the marines do not know that they have to defend important points/extractors...they run most of the time somewhere around the map without being of any use...
When I command myself I always have problems to get my marines do what I want...they directly leave the rooms I want to be defended, they run somewhere I don't want them and so on...
All I want to say is: In a game where both teams are equally skilled and both teams now how this game works, the aliens will have a hard time to get this onos out without being under hard pressure of the marines :)
But I can be wrong because I haven't played a lot :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i just find it impossible to stop.
a perfect example was on tram earlier... our commander was very good - doing all of the right things like fast phase tech and mines etc... i secured elevator and began pressuring the hive in the top right while most of the team secured the left side of the map. we were in total control with about 75% of the map.
then an onos came out and within about 1 minute we'd lost the entire left side pushed all the way back to main base. meanwhile i'd killed the hive in the top right two times. but due to the onos pressure we had to keep a lot of people in main, and i simply couldn't progress alone once the fades had popped out.
5 minutes later they had too much resources and about 4 onos, shades, crags and whips all over the place. we had jetpacks, but even being super efficient and killing loads of onos we were in an unwinnable position because of the alien defensive strength and our lack of mobility meant that we simply could not afford to spread any thinner.
so yeah... things going really well - we're winning... then with absolutely no control, their onos comes out and guaranteed loss. my kdr was like 2:1, and i'd got the killing blow on about 3 onos by the end chasing them down with jetpack... but it's a joke trying to kill an extractor when their commander trolls you by plopping down a shade, 3 whips and a couple of crags - good luck there against invincible buildings while the onos pwn your base.
i don't want to call it 'ridiculous' or broken, but frankly the game isn't enjoyable to play whenever the alien commander decides to drop an onos egg.
<!--quoteo(post=2024114:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:25 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 14 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->regen is probably too good, but conceptually it is great for gameplay to be able to hide behind cover briefly and regenerate and join a fight. I'd probably keep regeneration rate the same and raise the "out of combat" time, maybe play around with values between 2-4 values for each build? it's in a pretty amazing spot right now and I wouldn't want to nerf it into oblivion again. I think it's awesome that Skulks can actually move and outplay marines in direct engagements instead of relying on lapses of attention.
ideally it should be in a state where it's really tough to decide between carapace / regeneration<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will agree that it should be in a state where you say "Do I want carapace or regeneration". However, in it's current state it is severely OP. For example, in the time it takes a single marine to reload his rifle, in it's current state the regeneration mechanic triggers during that brief time he is reloading, negating most of the damage he has done.
Take this a step further, and look at the disparity between the two teams "highest tech/lifeforms". As someone else here has stated: "An ExoSuit can be taken down, by a single skulk. An onos, in NO way, can be taken down by a single marine unless that marine has a vast amount of luck and a jetpack."
I'm no balance designer for a game, and I don't pretend to be one. But I do know that right now regeneration is imbalanced. So much so that I hardly see people going carapace anymore. It's not even a choice right now.
<!--quoteo(post=2027866:date=Nov 18 2012, 09:26 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 18 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So far I don't mind this build too much, when it comes to skilled players there are some pretty good matches. In pubs the aliens win most of the time though. I think regen is where it needs to be. But it's actually comparable to carapace now, like I actually will pick it over carapace depending on what I'm doing.
Flamethrowers actually have a much better use now, I see them as being almost a counter to onos now, combined with the energy drain an onos can't attack or charge away once we charges in and that usually results in death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comparable to carapace ?? Have you even played with regen ? Perhaps for skulk or lerk what you said is true - but for later game forms like fade & onos.. dear god you couldn't be further off. I've played with a few very skilled marine teams who had a huge advantage early on, we almost won then the aliens spawns 1 onos with regen and wiped out 2 of our 3 bases.. by the time we recouped and tried another push it was too late, they had 2 more regen onos and they took our final base. So we had more momentum, we were killing them as skulks badly, the marines all had k:d ratios of roughly 10:3 while the aliens were mostly in the negatives.. and our comm was great. We were truly the better team, but ended up losing thanks to the stupid regen alone. Stop defending a blatant flaw.
I would just like to add, if you check <a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/</a> and look at the win% by <u>round length</u>. You will notice anything past 10-15 min round is heavily skewed Alien.
I think its fair to guess this is the Onos factor.
<!--quoteo(post=2028072:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:27 PM:name=Hamlet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hamlet @ Nov 18 2012, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure this patch makes professional matches 50-50 now. But you don't get that kind of marine cooperation on public servers. There, you are lucky if 1 out of 8 players can be arsed to use his headset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It makes it 71/29 Aliens. (On 229, Pro servers, per NS2STATS.ORG)
It's broken, stop trying to defend it. It's embarrassing.
Aliens were bad enough when you had an endgame unit 5 minutes into the game. Now, regen and crags make them nearly invincible unless you hit perfect shots. Even performance and hitregistry are worse. 229 is a huge step backwards.
<!--quoteo(post=2028556:date=Nov 19 2012, 12:26 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 19 2012, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens were bad enough when you had an endgame unit 5 minutes into the game. Now, regen and crags make them nearly invincible unless you hit perfect shots. 229 is a huge step backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, for some reason reading the words "end-game" and "5 minutes" in the same sentence is just jarring. Game needs a patch ASAP.
<!--quoteo(post=2024247:date=Nov 15 2012, 07:14 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 15 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We apologize for the factual inaccuracies in the patchnotes. We would like to pull them down, and put up a new complete and better version, but we have a strict policy of not changing the patchnotes once they have been posted. It protects the writers of the patchnotes from being pressured to add additional gameplay and balance information by the community, and we stand by this policy.
Thank you.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that sounds fair enough as a general rule but in this specific case I think it would be appropriate and have a great net benefit to add a new post with the balance changes that were left out of the original changelog, it really was a significant omission and many players, especially those who do not read the forums are still having to learn of these changes from other players in the server.
<!--quoteo(post=2028647:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:25 AM:name=YoungTrotsky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YoungTrotsky @ Nov 19 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that sounds fair enough as a general rule but in this specific case I think it would be appropriate and have a great net benefit to add a new post with the balance changes that were left out of the original changelog, it really was a significant omission and many players, especially those who do not read the forums are still having to learn of these changes from other players in the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretttttty sure he was making fun of the gamespot review takedown announcement.
And as a public player I've seen a lot of alien wins compared to marines. The trigger is usually once the Onos comes out and Exos cant stop em.
Oh, I didn't get the reference. I still think they should post an additional changelog with the balance changes on the official website. I'm sure a lot more players check that than the forums and are still confused about what changes actually came in with build 229.
i would seriously like to try a complete REMOVAL of tres onos.
i mean.... marine commander cannot drop tres dual minigun exo, so wtf is the idea with tres onos? i'm in support of asymmetry, but that just seems like a blatant problem where one team can spam their 'uber weapon' whenever and the other team needs to go through 30 minutes of teching to even unlock it - and still can't even drop it.
REMOVE TRES ONOS and replace it with some kind of useful alien commander res dump parallel to medpack/ammo drop...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nerf regen on onos;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->increase the goddamn game performance for once _0_<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it is not possible right now because UWE's djinni is on vacation.
Almost the whole community screams for a fast patch to undo the regen buff, but somehow UWE simply seems to ignore us... @UWE: good job! Keep going, you are loosing players each day. Great way to bury a game.
It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!
<!--quoteo(post=2028900:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:51 PM:name=Illidan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Illidan @ Nov 19 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Almost the whole community screams for a fast patch to undo the regen buff, but somehow UWE simply seems to ignore us... @UWE: good job! Keep going, you are loosing players each day. Great way to bury a game.
It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you honestly think regen is wholly responsible from alien win getting bumped up to 60%?
if only my world was as simple and elementary as yours...
<!--quoteo(post=2028900:date=Nov 19 2012, 08:51 AM:name=Illidan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Illidan @ Nov 19 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> balance testing a way to keep Regeneration relevant instead of nerfing it into uselessness probably?
Was stuck as gorge in courtyard between strut and dumpster near power node and as onos behind the grate down at gap (against the back wall down the ladder) when I ran into it following a jetpacker.
<!--quoteo(post=2028900:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:51 AM:name=Illidan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Illidan @ Nov 19 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Almost the whole community screams for a fast patch to undo the regen buff, but somehow UWE simply seems to ignore us... @UWE: good job! Keep going, you are loosing players each day. Great way to bury a game.
It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe they are finally going to stop listening to knee jerk whiners, but thats just wishful thinking.
<!--quoteo(post=2028999:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:09 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 19 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you honestly think regen is wholly responsible from alien win getting bumped up to 60%?
if only my world was as simple and elementary as yours...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said that it's the only thing unbalancing the game, but it's one big thing in my point of view. It had been about 49/51 for aliens with patch 228 and regen onos with early onos is too strong, marines don't stand a chance on public servers then.
So what would happen if your world would be as simple? Got a problem with that? Argue without getting offensive or get lost!
<!--quoteo(post=2029039:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:32 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 19 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->balance testing a way to keep Regeneration relevant instead of nerfing it into uselessness probably?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To undo the change would be better than the current stage: Almost every alien comm going regen first and players saving for early onos. Right now alien comms start to get fair and tell not to use regen as first upgrade. I don't want them to change it back to the 228 uselessness (it really was useless in 228), but would be better than now. They can give it another try later, maybe increase it that just a bit. Would be great to see them test it more before they release it. Or, otherwise, react faster to rebalance it. They are taking ages to rebalance and don't give feedback on the forums.
As I understand it, the primary issue with regeneration right now is solo with the Onos. This seems to be because of the % based regeneration effect, which causes it to heal large amounts of hitpoints on the Onos very quickly.
As a player I discovered this myself when playing Onos last night because I was able to retreat from an attack and regenerate all my health in less than 10 seconds completely independently of gorge or crag support. (This had good synergy with Camouflage, since if anyone pursued me I could cloak while regenerating and surprise them for an easy kill)
It allows an independent Onos to be far too effective in its current state, but I haven't really experienced regeneration being similarly overpowered on any of the other aliens. (Although I can see how it might be really effective on hit and run Fade's as well)
<!--quoteo(post=2029109:date=Nov 19 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Dullahan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dullahan @ Nov 19 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I understand it, the primary issue with regeneration right now is solo with the Onos. This seems to be because of the % based regeneration effect, which causes it to heal large amounts of hitpoints on the Onos very quickly.
As a player I discovered this myself when playing Onos last night because I was able to retreat from an attack and regenerate all my health in less than 10 seconds completely independently of gorge or crag support. (This had good synergy with Camouflage, since if anyone pursued me I could cloak while regenerating and surprise them for an easy kill)
It allows an independent Onos to be far too effective in its current state, but I haven't really experienced regeneration being similarly overpowered on any of the other aliens. (Although I can see how it might be really effective on hit and run Fade's as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't know what the regen maths are... but it must be a viable alternative to carapace which is more than 30% extra effective health.
when you're toning down regeneration, where do you even start? it needs to be significantly better than 228, because 228 regen was totally useless compared to carapace... yet i haven't even seen any evidence that 229 regen is better than 800 hp of carapace.
the sample size of marines versus regen onos is small and skewed because typically tres onos is on the field before marines have any realistic chance to kill them efficiently whether they have carapace, regen or no trait at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2029143:date=Nov 19 2012, 04:27 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 19 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't know what the regen maths are... but it must be a viable alternative to carapace which is more than extra 30% effective health.
when you're toning down regeneration, where do you even start? it has to be better than before, because before it was totally useless... plus there's no concrete evidence that it's better than 800 hp of carapace.
the sample size of marines versus regen onos is small and skewed because typically tres onos is on the field before marines have any realistic chance to kill them efficiently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's sort of the issue, Regen Onos is absurdly powerful when the marines don't have a lot of firepower. It exacerbates the TRes Onos problem even further because they can't even be chased off.
Comments
It's almost ridiculously effective now. If you find a proper middle-ground between the old and the new Regeneration things will be A-OK.
Crags are healing too fast for my taste to the point where Gorges become unemployed. Tone it down a little and make the kick-in time for personal Regeneration a little bit longer (but not as long as 228) and we are all fine.
The other big change comes with the 100% invisibility. I think the invisibility should only be 100% when the alien is standing still. Make it 95% or 97.5% while moving, so a really-really good marine has a tiny chance of seeing a skulk sneaking straight towards him.
The public stats are behaving that way because
a) the marine side is much more likely to be stacked with rookies (green names) - guess what happens if you pitch an experienced team against first-timers? Surprise-surprise! The pros win!
b) the changes mentioned above
c) the game seems to forgive unsocial alien team behaviour much more than clueless/unsocial marine behaviour. What I'm saying is, if you idle around uselessly as a skulk and your khamm barely holds 3 rts + 2nd hive you will still win because some time 1 player will make it to onos (if not by tres sponsored egg) and suddenly the knot breaks and the team will make the breakthrough they would never have made due to lack of teamwork... suddenly that annoying crucial pg in front of your hive goes down, suddenly that marine base rush is successful because of the Onos. Sure, the team could have won the game 30min before by combining gorges, lerks and skulks and TIMING + COOPERATION FFS, but nobody talked and nobody listened...
A marine team that behaves that way is dead in the water because it makes no difference if you equip them with welders for 5res or dual-exos for 75res... a rookie will take it, walk solo into some whips/skulks and die. Very often you have exactly 1 try. When that is wasted, you just lost another public game.
For a marine comm, his eyes on the ground are an essential source of battlefield intel. It's simply no fun if you got 7 single player rambos on your team... you need smart, communicative, social, map-aware players who can think on their own and pass on crucial information (e.g. mainbase power is critical!)
The alien comm needs his players much less. Building is (almost) completely depending on the khamm alone.
I'm pretty sure this patch makes professional matches 50-50 now.
But you don't get that kind of marine cooperation on public servers. There, you are lucky if 1 out of 8 players can be arsed to use his headset.
it just gets exacerbated by onos drops off 2 hives which is practically impossible to stop on pub servers.
onos drop = alien take >50% of the map because marine cant deal with fast onos = alien get enough resources to spam upgrades, crags and more onos
onos drop urgently needs to be fixed... if it was 3 hive then it might be possible to fight because you can deny their 3rd hive.
it just gets exacerbated by onos drops off 2 hives which is practically impossible to stop on pub servers.
onos drop = alien take >50% of the map because marine cant deal with fast onos = alien get enough resources to spam upgrades, crags and more onos
onos drop urgently needs to be fixed... if it was 3 hive then it might be possible to fight because you can deny their 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a little new to this game but I've played 30h now and I guess the fast onos isn't the only problem. When the alines get out that onos it's often more that went wrong on marines side right from the start..
Commanders build lots of sentries, the marines can't hold the extractors, the aliens got map control...
all this together and the fact, that most people don't really now that they have to kill that gorge or the commander needs to get jetpacks, flamethrowers and shotguns and you get one onos killing the entire marine team and winning the game...
Marinecommanders are often not aggressive enough, they do not now that they have to get some jetpacks or exos instead of sentries and the marines do not know that they have to defend important points/extractors...they run most of the time somewhere around the map without being of any use...
When I command myself I always have problems to get my marines do what I want...they directly leave the rooms I want to be defended, they run somewhere I don't want them and so on...
All I want to say is: In a game where both teams are equally skilled and both teams now how this game works, the aliens will have a hard time to get this onos out without being under hard pressure of the marines :)
But I can be wrong because I haven't played a lot :D
@Haroldcooper - I mean if the power node is down you will be 95-100% invisible but with the power up you will be 75-90%. Maybe if the lights are out the only way that they can see you is if a Marine / Exosuit shines a flashlight directly at you.
The way I see it is that there is no need for silence compared to Invisibilty way it is. When you are invisible you are silent anyways so what's the point. Maybe if you add a <i>little</i> bit of noise when you are invisible
No, the more reasonable solution is to make res precious, even in late-game.
The way I see it is that there is no need for silence compared to Invisibilty way it is. When you are invisible you are silent anyways so what's the point. Maybe if you add a <i>little</i> bit of noise when you are invisible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because you're slow as hell when invisible... silence can allow you to run around at full speed in 'the next room' without them knowing allowing for easier flanking where camo is more waiting for them to come to you.
do not underestimate speed.
Commanders build lots of sentries, the marines can't hold the extractors, the aliens got map control...
all this together and the fact, that most people don't really now that they have to kill that gorge or the commander needs to get jetpacks, flamethrowers and shotguns and you get one onos killing the entire marine team and winning the game...
Marinecommanders are often not aggressive enough, they do not now that they have to get some jetpacks or exos instead of sentries and the marines do not know that they have to defend important points/extractors...they run most of the time somewhere around the map without being of any use...
When I command myself I always have problems to get my marines do what I want...they directly leave the rooms I want to be defended, they run somewhere I don't want them and so on...
All I want to say is: In a game where both teams are equally skilled and both teams now how this game works, the aliens will have a hard time to get this onos out without being under hard pressure of the marines :)
But I can be wrong because I haven't played a lot :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i just find it impossible to stop.
a perfect example was on tram earlier... our commander was very good - doing all of the right things like fast phase tech and mines etc... i secured elevator and began pressuring the hive in the top right while most of the team secured the left side of the map. we were in total control with about 75% of the map.
then an onos came out and within about 1 minute we'd lost the entire left side pushed all the way back to main base. meanwhile i'd killed the hive in the top right two times. but due to the onos pressure we had to keep a lot of people in main, and i simply couldn't progress alone once the fades had popped out.
5 minutes later they had too much resources and about 4 onos, shades, crags and whips all over the place. we had jetpacks, but even being super efficient and killing loads of onos we were in an unwinnable position because of the alien defensive strength and our lack of mobility meant that we simply could not afford to spread any thinner.
so yeah... things going really well - we're winning... then with absolutely no control, their onos comes out and guaranteed loss. my kdr was like 2:1, and i'd got the killing blow on about 3 onos by the end chasing them down with jetpack... but it's a joke trying to kill an extractor when their commander trolls you by plopping down a shade, 3 whips and a couple of crags - good luck there against invincible buildings while the onos pwn your base.
i don't want to call it 'ridiculous' or broken, but frankly the game isn't enjoyable to play whenever the alien commander decides to drop an onos egg.
I'd probably keep regeneration rate the same and raise the "out of combat" time, maybe play around with values between 2-4 values for each build? it's in a pretty amazing spot right now and I wouldn't want to nerf it into oblivion again. I think it's awesome that Skulks can actually move and outplay marines in direct engagements instead of relying on lapses of attention.
ideally it should be in a state where it's really tough to decide between carapace / regeneration<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will agree that it should be in a state where you say "Do I want carapace or regeneration". However, in it's current state it is severely OP. For example, in the time it takes a single marine to reload his rifle, in it's current state the regeneration mechanic triggers during that brief time he is reloading, negating most of the damage he has done.
Take this a step further, and look at the disparity between the two teams "highest tech/lifeforms". As someone else here has stated: "An ExoSuit can be taken down, by a single skulk. An onos, in NO way, can be taken down by a single marine unless that marine has a vast amount of luck and a jetpack."
I'm no balance designer for a game, and I don't pretend to be one. But I do know that right now regeneration is imbalanced. So much so that I hardly see people going carapace anymore. It's not even a choice right now.
Flamethrowers actually have a much better use now, I see them as being almost a counter to onos now, combined with the energy drain an onos can't attack or charge away once we charges in and that usually results in death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comparable to carapace ?? Have you even played with regen ? Perhaps for skulk or lerk what you said is true - but for later game forms like fade & onos.. dear god you couldn't be further off. I've played with a few very skilled marine teams who had a huge advantage early on, we almost won then the aliens spawns 1 onos with regen and wiped out 2 of our 3 bases.. by the time we recouped and tried another push it was too late, they had 2 more regen onos and they took our final base. So we had more momentum, we were killing them as skulks badly, the marines all had k:d ratios of roughly 10:3 while the aliens were mostly in the negatives.. and our comm was great. We were truly the better team, but ended up losing thanks to the stupid regen alone. Stop defending a blatant flaw.
I think its fair to guess this is the Onos factor.
But you don't get that kind of marine cooperation on public servers. There, you are lucky if 1 out of 8 players can be arsed to use his headset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It makes it 71/29 Aliens. (On 229, Pro servers, per NS2STATS.ORG)
It's broken, stop trying to defend it. It's embarrassing.
Lol, for some reason reading the words "end-game" and "5 minutes" in the same sentence is just jarring. Game needs a patch ASAP.
Thank you.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that sounds fair enough as a general rule but in this specific case I think it would be appropriate and have a great net benefit to add a new post with the balance changes that were left out of the original changelog, it really was a significant omission and many players, especially those who do not read the forums are still having to learn of these changes from other players in the server.
I'm pretttttty sure he was making fun of the gamespot review takedown announcement.
And as a public player I've seen a lot of alien wins compared to marines. The trigger is usually once the Onos comes out and Exos cant stop em.
i mean.... marine commander cannot drop tres dual minigun exo, so wtf is the idea with tres onos? i'm in support of asymmetry, but that just seems like a blatant problem where one team can spam their 'uber weapon' whenever and the other team needs to go through 30 minutes of teching to even unlock it - and still can't even drop it.
REMOVE TRES ONOS and replace it with some kind of useful alien commander res dump parallel to medpack/ammo drop...
nerf onos;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
definitely
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nerf regen on onos;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->increase the goddamn game performance for once _0_<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it is not possible right now because UWE's djinni is on vacation.
It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!
It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you honestly think regen is wholly responsible from alien win getting bumped up to 60%?
if only my world was as simple and elementary as yours...
balance testing a way to keep Regeneration relevant instead of nerfing it into uselessness probably?
It's not that difficult to undo the regen buff, so I wonder what UWE's waiting for!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe they are finally going to stop listening to knee jerk whiners, but thats just wishful thinking.
if only my world was as simple and elementary as yours...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said that it's the only thing unbalancing the game, but it's one big thing in my point of view.
It had been about 49/51 for aliens with patch 228 and regen onos with early onos is too strong, marines don't stand a chance on public servers then.
So what would happen if your world would be as simple? Got a problem with that? Argue without getting offensive or get lost!
<!--quoteo(post=2029039:date=Nov 19 2012, 02:32 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 19 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->balance testing a way to keep Regeneration relevant instead of nerfing it into uselessness probably?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To undo the change would be better than the current stage: Almost every alien comm going regen first and players saving for early onos. Right now alien comms start to get fair and tell not to use regen as first upgrade.
I don't want them to change it back to the 228 uselessness (it really was useless in 228), but would be better than now. They can give it another try later, maybe increase it that just a bit. Would be great to see them test it more before they release it. Or, otherwise, react faster to rebalance it. They are taking ages to rebalance and don't give feedback on the forums.
As a player I discovered this myself when playing Onos last night because I was able to retreat from an attack and regenerate all my health in less than 10 seconds completely independently of gorge or crag support. (This had good synergy with Camouflage, since if anyone pursued me I could cloak while regenerating and surprise them for an easy kill)
It allows an independent Onos to be far too effective in its current state, but I haven't really experienced regeneration being similarly overpowered on any of the other aliens. (Although I can see how it might be really effective on hit and run Fade's as well)
As a player I discovered this myself when playing Onos last night because I was able to retreat from an attack and regenerate all my health in less than 10 seconds completely independently of gorge or crag support. (This had good synergy with Camouflage, since if anyone pursued me I could cloak while regenerating and surprise them for an easy kill)
It allows an independent Onos to be far too effective in its current state, but I haven't really experienced regeneration being similarly overpowered on any of the other aliens. (Although I can see how it might be really effective on hit and run Fade's as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't know what the regen maths are... but it must be a viable alternative to carapace which is more than 30% extra effective health.
when you're toning down regeneration, where do you even start? it needs to be significantly better than 228, because 228 regen was totally useless compared to carapace... yet i haven't even seen any evidence that 229 regen is better than 800 hp of carapace.
the sample size of marines versus regen onos is small and skewed because typically tres onos is on the field before marines have any realistic chance to kill them efficiently whether they have carapace, regen or no trait at all.
when you're toning down regeneration, where do you even start? it has to be better than before, because before it was totally useless... plus there's no concrete evidence that it's better than 800 hp of carapace.
the sample size of marines versus regen onos is small and skewed because typically tres onos is on the field before marines have any realistic chance to kill them efficiently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's sort of the issue, Regen Onos is absurdly powerful when the marines don't have a lot of firepower. It exacerbates the TRes Onos problem even further because they can't even be chased off.