In reference to celerity being an acceptable alternative to hive teleporting. Several people have already mentioned the fact that not everyone would want to use celerity or benefit from it. Also, you assume that people will be travelling to adjacent hives. What if the marines make a base in the middle hive and you have to traverse the entire map? Celerity cannot be the answer to this issue, or there might as well not be other movement upgrades.
EDIT: Also, why make an alien commander if the goal is to make the sides functionally separate as possible. That seems to be one of the most significant ways in which aliens differed from marines. Aliens had to rely on everyone pulling together their resources and working together. Now only 1 alien can build rts/upgrades? The gorge is basically worthless now.
<!--quoteo(post=1974861:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:29 PM:name=Therealsmokey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therealsmokey @ Sep 9 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: Also, why make an alien commander if the goal is to make the sides functionally separate as possible. That seems to be one of the most significant ways in which aliens differed from marines. Aliens had to rely on everyone pulling together their resources and working together. Now only 1 alien can build rts/upgrades? The gorge is basically worthless now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is that the Khammander can do everything on his own with no outside assistance. Build RT's, set up defenses, attack, etc.
Commander can't do anything on his own. He can only drop blueprints (for Marines to build), drop supplies (for Marines to use), and cast Nano-Shield (Only usable on Marines).
Veil is a terrible map for NS2, nostalgia aside. Using it as an example in a balance discussion seems silly. It's there for nostalgia's sake, not for any other reason. For the whopping 3 official maps the game will be shipping with (4 years in development, 3 official maps for release, that's government quality efficiency and productivity there.) hive teleport while nice, isn't strictly required. For the 55 terrible custom maps that will spring up within weeks to fill the huge glaring void left by UWE in the map department, I cannot say.
Just played a whole lot of veil tonight as aliens(12v12), i noticed that the whole left hand side of the map is mostly ignored, because it takes so long to go through the maze to get there as an alien. Sure aliens are faster then marines, but the routes required to get is like a damn maze it takes for ever, The team is usually spread from warhouse to topo and any further aliens get thinned out more and more. That with the respawn time for aliens waiting close to 2mins sometimes.
Something has to be done, marines can fly for 10res and use phase gates, what aliens get? celerity and leap whoa two leaps and ur out of energy, doesnt help too much to traverse poorly made mazes, vents are ment to be usefull, they take even longer to use then normal corridors. I do like the mini game feature though, watching the mini map the whole game then randomly walk infront of 4 marines because the sounds are horrible. All this coz the maps make no sense of design, why in the hell would humans make corridors curve and bend in illogical ways. We were even getting celerity purposely because it was idiocy to not get it on this map.
I agree veil is a horrible map. Heaps of people in the server complained that the map is too big.
<!--quoteo(post=1971168:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:33 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 5 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. If you've made it into the hive room, most of the fight is over. I haven't seen a single ARC since I started playing NS2 again right before b217, because nobody feels the need to siege Hives when you can just pop the eggs and shoot everything to death at your leisure; you usually only have one or two entrances to cover, and it's not like the aliens have time for stealthy approaches or surprise ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens need to scout. Most of their stuff is fragile. RTs, chambers, hives, you name it. Scout, then ambush or counter-attack. I really don't see a problem with the hive-egg-camping, although some hive areas are pretty difficult for aliens. That should change.
As to ARC:s... The arcs cost 20 res a piece and absolutely melt to just one bilebombing gorge. They are currently a really bad choice, just like turrets. Earlier, when they didn't melt as easily, they were the tool best marines had for ending games. Not much has changed between this and those builds regarding egg-camping and killing hives with marines.
So, in short, I disagree ;)
EDIT: Oh, and in response to the ones bad-mouthing Veil: I disagree. The map is the best thing that has happened to NS2 in a while. Now we finally have a second good map and don't have to settle for just the Summit.
<!--quoteo(post=1975018:date=Sep 10 2012, 10:49 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Sep 10 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: Oh, and in response to the ones bad-mouthing Veil: I disagree. The map is the best thing that has happened to NS2 in a while. Now we finally have a second good map and don't have to settle for just the Summit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm being totally serious here though it might come across as sarcastic.
Enlighten me as to how Veil is a good map. It's a very strategically bland map to me. The aliens are forced to not bother capping any nodes early on and rush a 2nd hive giving marines way to many resource nodes. Sure, the skulks job is to stop the marines from capping so many nodes but let's be honest, the long halls combined with phase tech makes it pretty simple for marines to get a respectable resource advantage. If the aliens can stop the marines from getting a nice resource advantage early on, the game is over anyway regardless of the map.
It's a great map for ns1 but it's just a bad map for ns2. Without the ability to teleport between hives it's a long trip between sub-sector and pipeline and celerity doesn't help enough. I want them to either drop the whole nostalgia thing and redesign veil or dump it, as in it's current state it's crap for NS2.
you have drifters and cyst to forsee a marine attack and it will require you good coordination and strategy to be in palce in the right hive when the marines hit or to orchestrate a well timed counterattack.
Veil is a good map...but sux in NS2 because it has helped show what an oversight not having hive teleporting like in NS1.
Veil is like a lot of the original NS maps..BIG. Thats what made them so much fun, why marines needed phase tech so much and why aliens with hive hopping could quickly control large parts of the map.
Most of the current maps are tiny....well and truly too small which results in hives being too close together.
Now without hive hopping Veil is tedious as aliens...too much running and thats coming from a mostly skulk player not a big fat slow gorge or Onos.
The community likes the old style big maps...thats what made NS fun, the early push by marines when repelled set them back a good couple of minutes. Now it sets them back 30 seconds before they are back in the battle...and not always due to phase tech. Some times teh bases are just too close.
Had three longer games today, one as marine and I wished hive teleport in every one of them.
It's just not exciting to have 1 alien after anoher arrive at the hive when it is rushed. At a solid marine rush aliens have only <i>one</i> chance (maybe 1.5) per player to keep the hive from dying. After the first approach they are either dead or need to heal and the hive is down. Aliens could make a crag/gorge base outside the hive, but why should they - the hive is their base.
There are very very very few good battles for a hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1975911:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:27 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Sep 11 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Had three longer games today, one as marine and I wished hive teleport in every one of them.
It's just not exciting to have 1 alien after anoher arrive at the hive when it is rushed. At a solid marine rush aliens have only <i>one</i> chance (maybe 1.5) per player to keep the hive from dying. After the first approach they are either dead or need to heal and the hive is down. Aliens could make a crag/gorge base outside the hive, but why should they - the hive is their base.
There are very very very few good battles for a hive.
Please, just try hive teleport.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could try, I don't know, grouping together before trying to hit the Marine's assault squad instead of running in one at a time like lemmings.
<!--quoteo(post=1975632:date=Sep 11 2012, 11:27 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 11 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that ns1 style 4 tech points maps, veil and eclipse, don't work so well without hive teleportation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It aint the tech points that is the issue...its the size of the maps...eclipse is very wide map...too much running for gorges and onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1975925:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 11 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could try, I don't know, grouping together before trying to hit the Marine's assault squad instead of running in one at a time like lemmings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1975925:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 11 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could try, I don't know, grouping together before trying to hit the Marine's assault squad instead of running in one at a time like lemmings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhm yes, because grouping up on some random location outside a hive (waiting for stragglers that spawned in other locations at different times, lifeforms with different speeds and so on) is such an viable tactic when you already have an well setup marine team sitting inside a hive killing eggs and getting ready to insta-rape the hive in under a minute.
I don't see why shift teleport between hives would imbalance anything, at best it would give aliens a chance to counter such well organized hiverushs by organizing themselves (meet up near any shift in force and move in at the same time as the hive gets attacked, which is actually accomplish able compared to "meeting outside the attacked hive"). Right now the egg killing and lack of emergency teleport makes it so that aliens always fight on 1 hive vs all marines terms. If aliens have 3 hives they should have an direct advantage in defense in terms of speed of reinforcement, that advantage is rendered moot if aliens can't get quickly to the attacked hive in question.
Let's also not forget that the whole MC hive teleport mechanic leads to so many awesomely organized situations and tactics in NS1. Got all your hive locations locked down by marines? At least have the option to group up in the mainhive, ninjadrop a hive and have the whole kharaa team move in to clear it out in an instant. It's the MC first solution against lock downs, just like DC has the viable solution with more sturdy higher lifeforms and SC has the viable solution of trying to ninja cloak a hive.
Obviously won't work against well coordinated marine teams and it would finally give marines a reason to be somewhat more careful as to what to attack and when. But i miss those times where "attacking the hive" meant getting an endless stream of new aliens incoming if you didn't clear out any MC's in the other hives. NS2 has already copied so many NS1 concepts at this point, might as well take this one along too..
<!--quoteo(post=1976086:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:16 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Sep 11 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhm yes, because grouping up on some random location outside a hive (waiting for stragglers that spawned in other locations at different times, lifeforms with different speeds and so on) is such an viable tactic when you already have an well setup marine team sitting inside a hive killing eggs and getting ready to insta-rape the hive in under a minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence the point of working together like a team. Like what the Marines are doing. If you rush an entire group of Marines solo, why would you expect to accomplish anything? If you don't have enough time to group up before attacking the Marines, then the Hive was lost anyway and going in yourself wouldn't have prevented that outcome.
Basically, if you want to beat the Marines who are using teamwork, then you should be expected to use some teamwork yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1976094:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:29 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 11 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did the marine team walk into your hive and get into a great position without you scouting the incoming push?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also that. Drifters have a lot of health and are invisible. There's really no reason not to have them scattered about.
<!--quoteo(post=1976095:date=Sep 12 2012, 03:31 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 12 2012, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence the point of working together like a team. Like what the Marines are doing. If you rush an entire group of Marines solo, why would you expect to accomplish anything? If you don't have enough time to group up before attacking the Marines, then the Hive was lost anyway and going in yourself wouldn't have prevented that outcome.
Basically, if you want to beat the Marines who are using teamwork, then you should be expected to use some teamwork yourself.
Also that. Drifters have a lot of health and are invisible. There's really no reason not to have them scattered about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines have Beacon, PG's, and JP's...which can be used by everyone except EXO's to instantly move large groups around the map. Aliens get nada?
Sorry but what your suggesting again shows absolutely no idea for alien game play or the validity of tactics over an extended period (everyone can get something to work once..but twice or more is harder).
Aliens need a way to get units around the map quickly...spawning at hives under attach needs to go..it fails to help aliens..but does wonders for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1976136:date=Sep 12 2012, 02:19 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 12 2012, 02:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have Beacon, PG's, and JP's...which can be used by everyone except EXO's to instantly move large groups around the map. Aliens get nada?
Sorry but what your suggesting again shows absolutely no idea for alien game play or the validity of tactics over an extended period (everyone can get something to work once..but twice or more is harder).
Aliens need a way to get units around the map quickly...spawning at hives under attach needs to go..it fails to help aliens..but does wonders for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens get leap/blink/celerity? I cruise around the map at 12-14 speeds with celerity as a skulk. Similarly, decent blinking with the fade can get you anywhere on summit in 10 or 15 seconds.
Comments
EDIT: Also, why make an alien commander if the goal is to make the sides functionally separate as possible. That seems to be one of the most significant ways in which aliens differed from marines. Aliens had to rely on everyone pulling together their resources and working together. Now only 1 alien can build rts/upgrades? The gorge is basically worthless now.
The difference is that the Khammander can do everything on his own with no outside assistance. Build RT's, set up defenses, attack, etc.
Commander can't do anything on his own. He can only drop blueprints (for Marines to build), drop supplies (for Marines to use), and cast Nano-Shield (Only usable on Marines).
Something has to be done, marines can fly for 10res and use phase gates, what aliens get? celerity and leap whoa two leaps and ur out of energy, doesnt help too much to traverse poorly made mazes, vents are ment to be usefull, they take even longer to use then normal corridors. I do like the mini game feature though, watching the mini map the whole game then randomly walk infront of 4 marines because the sounds are horrible. All this coz the maps make no sense of design, why in the hell would humans make corridors curve and bend in illogical ways. We were even getting celerity purposely because it was idiocy to not get it on this map.
I agree veil is a horrible map. Heaps of people in the server complained that the map is too big.
Aliens need to scout. Most of their stuff is fragile. RTs, chambers, hives, you name it. Scout, then ambush or counter-attack. I really don't see a problem with the hive-egg-camping, although some hive areas are pretty difficult for aliens. That should change.
As to ARC:s... The arcs cost 20 res a piece and absolutely melt to just one bilebombing gorge. They are currently a really bad choice, just like turrets. Earlier, when they didn't melt as easily, they were the tool best marines had for ending games. Not much has changed between this and those builds regarding egg-camping and killing hives with marines.
So, in short, I disagree ;)
EDIT: Oh, and in response to the ones bad-mouthing Veil: I disagree. The map is the best thing that has happened to NS2 in a while. Now we finally have a second good map and don't have to settle for just the Summit.
I'm being totally serious here though it might come across as sarcastic.
Enlighten me as to how Veil is a good map. It's a very strategically bland map to me. The aliens are forced to not bother capping any nodes early on and rush a 2nd hive giving marines way to many resource nodes. Sure, the skulks job is to stop the marines from capping so many nodes but let's be honest, the long halls combined with phase tech makes it pretty simple for marines to get a respectable resource advantage. If the aliens can stop the marines from getting a nice resource advantage early on, the game is over anyway regardless of the map.
It's a great map for ns1 but it's just a bad map for ns2. Without the ability to teleport between hives it's a long trip between sub-sector and pipeline and celerity doesn't help enough. I want them to either drop the whole nostalgia thing and redesign veil or dump it, as in it's current state it's crap for NS2.
Veil is like a lot of the original NS maps..BIG. Thats what made them so much fun, why marines needed phase tech so much and why aliens with hive hopping could quickly control large parts of the map.
Most of the current maps are tiny....well and truly too small which results in hives being too close together.
Now without hive hopping Veil is tedious as aliens...too much running and thats coming from a mostly skulk player not a big fat slow gorge or Onos.
The community likes the old style big maps...thats what made NS fun, the early push by marines when repelled set them back a good couple of minutes. Now it sets them back 30 seconds before they are back in the battle...and not always due to phase tech. Some times teh bases are just too close.
It's just not exciting to have 1 alien after anoher arrive at the hive when it is rushed. At a solid marine rush aliens have only <i>one</i> chance (maybe 1.5) per player to keep the hive from dying. After the first approach they are either dead or need to heal and the hive is down. Aliens could make a crag/gorge base outside the hive, but why should they - the hive is their base.
There are very very very few good battles for a hive.
Please, just try hive teleport.
no...
It's just not exciting to have 1 alien after anoher arrive at the hive when it is rushed. At a solid marine rush aliens have only <i>one</i> chance (maybe 1.5) per player to keep the hive from dying. After the first approach they are either dead or need to heal and the hive is down. Aliens could make a crag/gorge base outside the hive, but why should they - the hive is their base.
There are very very very few good battles for a hive.
Please, just try hive teleport.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could try, I don't know, grouping together before trying to hit the Marine's assault squad instead of running in one at a time like lemmings.
It aint the tech points that is the issue...its the size of the maps...eclipse is very wide map...too much running for gorges and onos.
Its hard to take a theorycrafter seriously
Do you mean me or Basie?
Uhm yes, because grouping up on some random location outside a hive (waiting for stragglers that spawned in other locations at different times, lifeforms with different speeds and so on) is such an viable tactic when you already have an well setup marine team sitting inside a hive killing eggs and getting ready to insta-rape the hive in under a minute.
I don't see why shift teleport between hives would imbalance anything, at best it would give aliens a chance to counter such well organized hiverushs by organizing themselves (meet up near any shift in force and move in at the same time as the hive gets attacked, which is actually accomplish able compared to "meeting outside the attacked hive").
Right now the egg killing and lack of emergency teleport makes it so that aliens always fight on 1 hive vs all marines terms. If aliens have 3 hives they should have an direct advantage in defense in terms of speed of reinforcement, that advantage is rendered moot if aliens can't get quickly to the attacked hive in question.
Let's also not forget that the whole MC hive teleport mechanic leads to so many awesomely organized situations and tactics in NS1. Got all your hive locations locked down by marines? At least have the option to group up in the mainhive, ninjadrop a hive and have the whole kharaa team move in to clear it out in an instant. It's the MC first solution against lock downs, just like DC has the viable solution with more sturdy higher lifeforms and SC has the viable solution of trying to ninja cloak a hive.
Obviously won't work against well coordinated marine teams and it would finally give marines a reason to be somewhat more careful as to what to attack and when.
But i miss those times where "attacking the hive" meant getting an endless stream of new aliens incoming if you didn't clear out any MC's in the other hives.
NS2 has already copied so many NS1 concepts at this point, might as well take this one along too..
Hence the point of working together like a team. Like what the Marines are doing. If you rush an entire group of Marines solo, why would you expect to accomplish anything? If you don't have enough time to group up before attacking the Marines, then the Hive was lost anyway and going in yourself wouldn't have prevented that outcome.
Basically, if you want to beat the Marines who are using teamwork, then you should be expected to use some teamwork yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1976094:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:29 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 11 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did the marine team walk into your hive and get into a great position without you scouting the incoming push?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also that. Drifters have a lot of health and are invisible. There's really no reason not to have them scattered about.
Basically, if you want to beat the Marines who are using teamwork, then you should be expected to use some teamwork yourself.
Also that. Drifters have a lot of health and are invisible. There's really no reason not to have them scattered about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines have Beacon, PG's, and JP's...which can be used by everyone except EXO's to instantly move large groups around the map.
Aliens get nada?
Sorry but what your suggesting again shows absolutely no idea for alien game play or the validity of tactics over an extended period (everyone can get something to work once..but twice or more is harder).
Aliens need a way to get units around the map quickly...spawning at hives under attach needs to go..it fails to help aliens..but does wonders for marines.
Aliens get nada?
Sorry but what your suggesting again shows absolutely no idea for alien game play or the validity of tactics over an extended period (everyone can get something to work once..but twice or more is harder).
Aliens need a way to get units around the map quickly...spawning at hives under attach needs to go..it fails to help aliens..but does wonders for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens get leap/blink/celerity? I cruise around the map at 12-14 speeds with celerity as a skulk. Similarly, decent blinking with the fade can get you anywhere on summit in 10 or 15 seconds.