<!--quoteo(post=1970732:date=Sep 4 2012, 01:32 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 4 2012, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'd run into the same problem where marines would just snipe you teleporting out of the hive (think alien sniping marines coming from a PG). If they are in your hive killing everything, spawn choosing vs hive teleport isn't really going to matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but I think teleporting with carapace, adren, celerity etc is leaps and bounds ahead of vanilla skulk with no upgrades. Looking at the current approach for aliens it would be like having marines spawn without upgrades and they had to get them from the armoury.
I am surpirsed that you dont think aliens would benefit from being able to have upgrades before trying to spawn/clear out a hive under attack.
Also how often does the marine die a few seconds after the hive went down, I see it more often than not..which means had aliens been able to get their 10 seconds sooner they could well have saved the hive (and not lost 40 Res (80 as you need to rebuild)).
<!--quoteo(post=1970732:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:32 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 4 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'd run into the same problem where marines would just snipe you teleporting out of the hive (think alien sniping marines coming from a PG). If they are in your hive killing everything, spawn choosing vs hive teleport isn't really going to matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1969703:date=Sep 1 2012, 05:09 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 1 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the increased speed of celerity and current map size this isn't really needed.
Also, Hives in NS1 were a lot more crucial and losing one meant game over with no chance of recovery. NS2 isn't as volatile regarding this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree withe everything you said.
1. Celerity fade isn't as fast is he was in NS1. 2. Map size isn't that small, newer maps like veil are big and marines often win games just because they built PG. 3. Hives are crucial. 4. NS2 is volatile.
One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 4 2012, 12:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 4 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "But they had it in NS1!!11one"
In all seriousness, aliens can get from one hive to another pretty quickly already. They don't *need* to be able to teleport, though I don't think it would break the game if it were added.
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 4 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm fine with anything as long as you somehow manage to prevent the game from turning too volatile.
You've got fast moving marines, tons of marine guns, PGs and a hard-to-read res model that allows you to field the guns without sacrificing economy or tech too much. That's a combination that can make the game very unstable and cheesy unless you're careful. I think the teleport can be an option to allow aliens a bit more stable defensive capability if necessary.
I don't feel like teleportation is unique enough that only one side can have it. Both sides have ranged weapons (lmg/spikes), siege weapons (gl/bb), defenses (sentry/whip), healing (armory/crag), but the way in which these aspects are approached is unique to each side. Currently, only marines have mobility (pg/???), which often leads to the aliens struggling to traverse the map quickly enough to keep pace with their PG attacks. That's counter to the main point (and the strength they're balanced around) of the Kharaa: their mobility.
Teleportation can be implemented differently for both sides, as others in this thread have stated. Marines can have their quick, one at a time, drop-and-hop gates set up anywhere in the map, and Kharaa will have their bulk transporting hives slowly take root in areas they control. The gameplay is quite asymmetric for both sides, but they both have options for the core rts element of maneuverability.
If Celerity is intended to be the Kahra's mobility upgrade, it isn't doing its job at all. Nor should it be expected to. You can't compare the ability to navigate a complex of snaking extensive hallways in slightly less time to the ability to instantly appear at your destination with no possibility of en-route ambush.
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 4 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 4 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what are the chances Beacon is completely removed? Marines are far too mobile in that they're ranged and run faster than Skulks (without Cara) not to mention jetpacks later in the game combined with two tele-methods for full map control (Beacon from Obs is near instant for Aliens to rush properly; Phase-gates grant Marines a quick jump from opposite sides of the map.) My gripe is that the Marines are too flexible with map-control and protecting what they own.
I don't think aliens need the ability to teleport between hives. They're very mobile on hive2+ tech and this entire change seems completely unnecessary. It's solving a problem that doesn't exist. Alien mobility > marine mobility with leap/blink against jetpack.
<!--quoteo(post=1971063:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:18 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 4 2012, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think aliens need the ability to teleport between hives. They're very mobile on hive2+ tech and this entire change seems completely unnecessary. It's solving a problem that doesn't exist. Alien mobility > marine mobility with leap/blink against jetpack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree.
<!--quoteo(post=1971060:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:13 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 4 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what are the chances Beacon is completely removed? Marines are far too mobile in that they're ranged and run faster than Skulks (without Cara) not to mention jetpacks later in the game combined with two tele-methods for full map control (Beacon from Obs is near instant for Aliens to rush properly; Phase-gates grant Marines a quick jump from opposite sides of the map.) My gripe is that the Marines are too flexible with map-control and protecting what they own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine base is attacked => marines beacon, kill attackers then use phasegates to continue as if nothing happened.
Alien base is attacked => Aliens either run across the map, arriving at staggered times and being slaughtered. Only way to defend is either force marines to beacon, or to know they are coming FAR in advance.
I realise this is part of the asymmetry, having aliens more aware of marine movements than marines are of aliens - but it is awfully annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1971068:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:22 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 4 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine base is attacked => marines beacon, kill attackers then use phasegates to continue as if nothing happened.
Alien base is attacked => Aliens either run across the map, arriving at staggered times and being slaughtered. Only way to defend is either force marines to beacon, or to know they are coming FAR in advance.
I realise this is part of the asymmetry, having aliens more aware of marine movements than marines are of aliens - but it is awfully annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Drifters. If you get blindsided by a large marine push then you got outplayed.
<!--quoteo(post=1971069:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 4 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With which part?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All of it.
I think aliens need teleportation. I don't feel T2 tech makes them anywhere near as mobile as they should be. I feel this is a real issue, and that Marine mobility is always greater than Kharaa mobility if PGs are in play.
<!--quoteo(post=1971070:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 4 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drifters. If you get blindsided by a large marine push then you got outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know and mentioned this. My point was why do aliens have to use drifters and maintain constant battlefield awareness, while marines just need to 10 res in reserve for a beacon? Seems far less demanding.
<!--quoteo(post=1971072:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:26 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 4 2012, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All of it.
I think aliens need teleportation. I don't feel T2 tech makes them anywhere near as mobile as they should be. I feel this is a real issue, and that Marine mobility is always greater than Kharaa mobility if PGs are in play.
Just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With skulk and leap you run at an average 12-14 speed probably with some decent wall jumping. Fades shoot around the map at a similar speed with faster burst speed. That's nearly double the speed of a jetpack.
Yeah, PGs give marines a lot of initial mobility, but they still have to run to the actual hive. Assuming the phasegate is a room or two away then the aliens can close almost twice the distance that the PG is from the hive. Not only that, but hives have a lot of health. If aliens are still a room or two away when the hive attack starts, they still have 15 or 20 seconds to make it and engage the marines.
Being in sub access when a hive in atrium is pushed is a fault of the player that doesn't need to be corrected by a game mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1971075:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:30 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 4 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know and mentioned this. My point was why do aliens have to use drifters and maintain constant battlefield awareness, while marines just need to 10 res in reserve for a beacon? Seems far less demanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They give different kinds of advantages. Aliens get a lot more map awareness from drifters than marines get from beacon, but marines get more emergency help from a beacon. If anything, I think drifters are the overpowered aspect here.
<!--quoteo(post=1971080:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:34 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 4 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With skulk and leap you run at an average 12-14 speed probably with some decent wall jumping. Fades shoot around the map at a similar speed with faster burst speed. That's nearly double the speed of a jetpack.
Yeah, PGs give marines a lot of initial mobility, but they still have to run to the actual hive. Assuming the phasegate is a room or two away then the aliens can close almost twice the distance that the PG is from the hive. Not only that, but hives have a lot of health. If aliens are still a room or two away when the hive attack starts, they still have 15 or 20 seconds to make it and engage the marines.
Being in sub access when a hive in atrium is pushed is a fault of the player that doesn't need to be corrected by a game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know the numbers, and I've heard your arguments, but I disagree. I've already outlined my beliefs in my earlier post about asymmetry on the previous page.
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 4 2012, 02:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 4 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On large maps like veil, phase gates is what wins games and beacon saves games. I don't understand how marines are granted two powerful mechanics while aliens are given none. Celerity doesn't cut it, and the combat restriction on it makes it even worse. Barely qualifies as a "getting around the map quicker" when you can go adren and leap/blink nearly infinite.
Exactly when do YOU consider hive warp to be a needed mechanic when there has been quite a bit of feedback stating that quite indeed needed.
<!--quoteo(post=1971084:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:37 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 4 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly when do YOU consider hive warp to be a needed mechanic when there has been quite a bit of feedback stating that quite indeed needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Feedback is just that. It's us feeding our opinions back into the developers; what they do with that, which parts they go with, is up to them. Not changing the game in the face of complaints isn't the same as not listening to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 4 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a very good reason why arcs and such are not used when taking out hives in NS2. Walking into a hive in NS1 was much riskier because aliens had great mobility in being able to instantly teleport to a hive that was under attack (also opening options reclaiming a hive full of marine structures), so it was crucial to have a phase gate and siege hives while sending in waves of marines (something I miss dearly in all of my NS2 experiences). In NS2 it is the opposite, as a marine I feel pretty powerful walking in with a team and don't feel the need to strategize, just walk in and kill it because I know by the time the team can reach us the hive will be dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1971101:date=Sep 4 2012, 03:54 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Sep 4 2012, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There is a very good reason why arcs and such are not used when taking out hives in NS2. Walking into a hive in NS1 was much riskier because aliens had great mobility in being able to instantly teleport to a hive that was under attack (also opening options reclaiming a hive full of marine structures), so it was crucial to have a phase gate and siege hives while sending in waves of marines (something I miss dearly in all of my NS2 experiences). In NS2 it is the opposite, as a marine I feel pretty powerful walking in with a team and don't feel the need to strategize, just walk in and kill it because I know by the time the team can reach us the hive will be dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. If you've made it into the hive room, most of the fight is over. I haven't seen a single ARC since I started playing NS2 again right before b217, because nobody feels the need to siege Hives when you can just pop the eggs and shoot everything to death at your leisure; you usually only have one or two entrances to cover, and it's not like the aliens have time for stealthy approaches or surprise ambushes.
<!--quoteo(post=1971168:date=Sep 5 2012, 08:33 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 5 2012, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. If you've made it into the hive room, most of the fight is over. I haven't seen a single ARC since I started playing NS2 again right before b217, because nobody feels the need to siege Hives when you can just pop the eggs and shoot everything to death at your leisure; you usually only have one or two entrances to cover, and it's not like the aliens have time for stealthy approaches or surprise ambushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That'due to the changes with hydra's 3 is just not enought to allow gorges to build choke points..
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 5 2012, 05:08 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 5 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree on the asymmetry...which is why hive teleporting (as in NS1) seems to fit the bill nicely. Unlike PG cant be built anywhere (only hive to hive), allows for aliens on veil to get from pipe in less than 20 sec (longer if not skulk).
Currently if you check your stats (which are rumoured to hold a lot of infe) you will see a lot of the time the hive dies a few seconds before 2-3 aliens arrive and kill the marine. As hives cost 40 RES...thats an 80 RES handicap for being slow.
You asked for a reason...how about the "dodgy" spawn system (nicest word I could think of) coupled with spawning at a hive under attack (which I believe is the supposed replacement for hive to hive teleportnig). Currently I get to wait 15-45 seconds for the opportunity to spawn at a hive under attack without ANY UPGRADES!...so yes death is a common next event. Which leads to another 15+ seconds wait (probably a lot longer as lots of aliens dieing as hive is attacked). Please let me spawn somewhere not under attack...get my upgrades...then hive travel.
Celerity...the other alernative to hive travel...again a failure but this time in part due to the "1 upgrade per hive type" means its a choice between adren and celerity. Skulk - Either Gorge - Adren (more healing/bile) lerk - Adren (more gas..spikes...flapping) Fade - Adren (who doesn't want more blinking) Onos - Celerity (Glaciers move faster than an onos with cara)
So the speed up on onos is not enough to even let it keep up with a skulk, all the others would generally take adren as it has better combat usage (celerity and slowdown dont work in combat). Even with celerity it takes ~15 seconds to get from one side of weil to the other as a skulk (not the worlds fastest player...) gorge and onos (the two aliens who would benefit most due to slow base speeds) who cant use vents will take even longer.
Hive to hive teleporting was a solely defensive upgrade, it offered no greater offensive advantage or caused undue pressure to be applied. It did allow aliens to keep hives alive longer with gorges able to get to hives to heal faster. sliding is fun but its not comparable to being able to just get back to nearest Spur/hive. Marines know if they have aliens in data core that pushing flight quickly will buy you 20+ seconds before aliens start trickling in, more than enough time to do some serious damage. Speed differential for aliens means either skulks sit and wait outside whilst hive is destroyed or risk going in unnumbered and ahead of the team. Wiser to wait until slowest skulk (if they give you number advantage) or slowest unit (ie gorges/onos) if its balanced. Sun tzu said "an army marches as fast as its slowest man", replace marches with responds effectively and it seems fairly applicable.
Aliens already waste enough res on cysts....having to replace a hive is not like replacing a CC. Hives are more costly, more important and slower to build.
<!--quoteo(post=1971270:date=Sep 5 2012, 11:37 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Sep 5 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just put it in for one patch and see how it plays I personally think the game will be a lot better for it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We want to build a case for a need...rather than a want...try it and see is not offering a reason/need for something similar on aliens side.
<!--quoteo(post=1971640:date=Sep 5 2012, 02:24 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 5 2012, 02:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We want to build a case for a need...rather than a want...try it and see is not offering a reason/need for something similar on aliens side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did that with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=120553&view=findpost&p=1969929" target="_blank">my post</a> a couple pages ago!
<!--quoteo(post=1974548:date=Sep 9 2012, 02:06 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 9 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did that with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=120553&view=findpost&p=1969929" target="_blank">my post</a> a couple pages ago!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds great.
Instead, lets go ahead and allow marines to prioritize waypoints for their phase gates so they don't need walk in and out of each one to reach the one they want.
<!--quoteo(post=1970976:date=Sep 4 2012, 06:08 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Sep 4 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit#heading=h.1vnf1fuylpo" target="_blank">design goals in NS2</a> is to keep the two sides as functionally separate as possible. Ie, not to have any "overlap" in functionality between the two sides.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's still asymmetric. Marines can build PGs anywhere. And it's a 'need': we need epic battles with many reinforcement-waves. These were THE moments of NS1. Right now that only happens at Nano Grid in Veil. It should be at the Hives mainly. Cmon you played NS1, didn't you? :D
Edit: And yes, the stuff about the Sieges is also true. No need for them right now.
Comments
Sorry but I think teleporting with carapace, adren, celerity etc is leaps and bounds ahead of vanilla skulk with no upgrades.
Looking at the current approach for aliens it would be like having marines spawn without upgrades and they had to get them from the armoury.
I am surpirsed that you dont think aliens would benefit from being able to have upgrades before trying to spawn/clear out a hive under attack.
Also how often does the marine die a few seconds after the hive went down, I see it more often than not..which means had aliens been able to get their 10 seconds sooner they could well have saved the hive (and not lost 40 Res (80 as you need to rebuild)).
LOL
Also, Hives in NS1 were a lot more crucial and losing one meant game over with no chance of recovery.
NS2 isn't as volatile regarding this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree withe everything you said.
1. Celerity fade isn't as fast is he was in NS1.
2. Map size isn't that small, newer maps like veil are big and marines often win games just because they built PG.
3. Hives are crucial.
4. NS2 is volatile.
Yes
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"But they had it in NS1!!11one"
In all seriousness, aliens can get from one hive to another pretty quickly already. They don't *need* to be able to teleport, though I don't think it would break the game if it were added.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm fine with anything as long as you somehow manage to prevent the game from turning too volatile.
You've got fast moving marines, tons of marine guns, PGs and a hard-to-read res model that allows you to field the guns without sacrificing economy or tech too much. That's a combination that can make the game very unstable and cheesy unless you're careful. I think the teleport can be an option to allow aliens a bit more stable defensive capability if necessary.
Teleportation can be implemented differently for both sides, as others in this thread have stated. Marines can have their quick, one at a time, drop-and-hop gates set up anywhere in the map, and Kharaa will have their bulk transporting hives slowly take root in areas they control. The gameplay is quite asymmetric for both sides, but they both have options for the core rts element of maneuverability.
If Celerity is intended to be the Kahra's mobility upgrade, it isn't doing its job at all. Nor should it be expected to. You can't compare the ability to navigate a complex of snaking extensive hallways in slightly less time to the ability to instantly appear at your destination with no possibility of en-route ambush.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what are the chances Beacon is completely removed? Marines are far too mobile in that they're ranged and run faster than Skulks (without Cara) not to mention jetpacks later in the game combined with two tele-methods for full map control (Beacon from Obs is near instant for Aliens to rush properly; Phase-gates grant Marines a quick jump from opposite sides of the map.)
My gripe is that the Marines are too flexible with map-control and protecting what they own.
I disagree.
My gripe is that the Marines are too flexible with map-control and protecting what they own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine base is attacked => marines beacon, kill attackers then use phasegates to continue as if nothing happened.
Alien base is attacked => Aliens either run across the map, arriving at staggered times and being slaughtered. Only way to defend is either force marines to beacon, or to know they are coming FAR in advance.
I realise this is part of the asymmetry, having aliens more aware of marine movements than marines are of aliens - but it is awfully annoying.
With which part?
<!--quoteo(post=1971068:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:22 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 4 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine base is attacked => marines beacon, kill attackers then use phasegates to continue as if nothing happened.
Alien base is attacked => Aliens either run across the map, arriving at staggered times and being slaughtered. Only way to defend is either force marines to beacon, or to know they are coming FAR in advance.
I realise this is part of the asymmetry, having aliens more aware of marine movements than marines are of aliens - but it is awfully annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Drifters. If you get blindsided by a large marine push then you got outplayed.
All of it.
I think aliens need teleportation. I don't feel T2 tech makes them anywhere near as mobile as they should be. I feel this is a real issue, and that Marine mobility is always greater than Kharaa mobility if PGs are in play.
Just my opinion.
I know and mentioned this. My point was why do aliens have to use drifters and maintain constant battlefield awareness, while marines just need to 10 res in reserve for a beacon? Seems far less demanding.
I think aliens need teleportation. I don't feel T2 tech makes them anywhere near as mobile as they should be. I feel this is a real issue, and that Marine mobility is always greater than Kharaa mobility if PGs are in play.
Just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With skulk and leap you run at an average 12-14 speed probably with some decent wall jumping. Fades shoot around the map at a similar speed with faster burst speed. That's nearly double the speed of a jetpack.
Yeah, PGs give marines a lot of initial mobility, but they still have to run to the actual hive. Assuming the phasegate is a room or two away then the aliens can close almost twice the distance that the PG is from the hive. Not only that, but hives have a lot of health. If aliens are still a room or two away when the hive attack starts, they still have 15 or 20 seconds to make it and engage the marines.
Being in sub access when a hive in atrium is pushed is a fault of the player that doesn't need to be corrected by a game mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1971075:date=Sep 4 2012, 04:30 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 4 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know and mentioned this. My point was why do aliens have to use drifters and maintain constant battlefield awareness, while marines just need to 10 res in reserve for a beacon? Seems far less demanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They give different kinds of advantages. Aliens get a lot more map awareness from drifters than marines get from beacon, but marines get more emergency help from a beacon. If anything, I think drifters are the overpowered aspect here.
Yeah, PGs give marines a lot of initial mobility, but they still have to run to the actual hive. Assuming the phasegate is a room or two away then the aliens can close almost twice the distance that the PG is from the hive. Not only that, but hives have a lot of health. If aliens are still a room or two away when the hive attack starts, they still have 15 or 20 seconds to make it and engage the marines.
Being in sub access when a hive in atrium is pushed is a fault of the player that doesn't need to be corrected by a game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know the numbers, and I've heard your arguments, but I disagree. I've already outlined my beliefs in my earlier post about asymmetry on the previous page.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On large maps like veil, phase gates is what wins games and beacon saves games. I don't understand how marines are granted two powerful mechanics while aliens are given none. Celerity doesn't cut it, and the combat restriction on it makes it even worse. Barely qualifies as a "getting around the map quicker" when you can go adren and leap/blink nearly infinite.
Exactly when do YOU consider hive warp to be a needed mechanic when there has been quite a bit of feedback stating that quite indeed needed.
Feedback is just that. It's us feeding our opinions back into the developers; what they do with that, which parts they go with, is up to them. Not changing the game in the face of complaints isn't the same as not listening to them.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a very good reason why arcs and such are not used when taking out hives in NS2. Walking into a hive in NS1 was much riskier because aliens had great mobility in being able to instantly teleport to a hive that was under attack (also opening options reclaiming a hive full of marine structures), so it was crucial to have a phase gate and siege hives while sending in waves of marines (something I miss dearly in all of my NS2 experiences). In NS2 it is the opposite, as a marine I feel pretty powerful walking in with a team and don't feel the need to strategize, just walk in and kill it because I know by the time the team can reach us the hive will be dead.
There is a very good reason why arcs and such are not used when taking out hives in NS2. Walking into a hive in NS1 was much riskier because aliens had great mobility in being able to instantly teleport to a hive that was under attack (also opening options reclaiming a hive full of marine structures), so it was crucial to have a phase gate and siege hives while sending in waves of marines (something I miss dearly in all of my NS2 experiences). In NS2 it is the opposite, as a marine I feel pretty powerful walking in with a team and don't feel the need to strategize, just walk in and kill it because I know by the time the team can reach us the hive will be dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. If you've made it into the hive room, most of the fight is over. I haven't seen a single ARC since I started playing NS2 again right before b217, because nobody feels the need to siege Hives when you can just pop the eggs and shoot everything to death at your leisure; you usually only have one or two entrances to cover, and it's not like the aliens have time for stealthy approaches or surprise ambushes.
Or is this after the marine team already wiped the aliens and forced all the fades to retreat from the hive?
That'due to the changes with hydra's 3 is just not enought to allow gorges to build choke points..
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree on the asymmetry...which is why hive teleporting (as in NS1) seems to fit the bill nicely.
Unlike PG cant be built anywhere (only hive to hive), allows for aliens on veil to get from pipe in less than 20 sec (longer if not skulk).
Currently if you check your stats (which are rumoured to hold a lot of infe) you will see a lot of the time the hive dies a few seconds before 2-3 aliens arrive and kill the marine.
As hives cost 40 RES...thats an 80 RES handicap for being slow.
You asked for a reason...how about the "dodgy" spawn system (nicest word I could think of) coupled with spawning at a hive under attack (which I believe is the supposed replacement for hive to hive teleportnig).
Currently I get to wait 15-45 seconds for the opportunity to spawn at a hive under attack without ANY UPGRADES!...so yes death is a common next event. Which leads to another 15+ seconds wait (probably a lot longer as lots of aliens dieing as hive is attacked).
Please let me spawn somewhere not under attack...get my upgrades...then hive travel.
Celerity...the other alernative to hive travel...again a failure but this time in part due to the "1 upgrade per hive type" means its a choice between adren and celerity.
Skulk - Either
Gorge - Adren (more healing/bile)
lerk - Adren (more gas..spikes...flapping)
Fade - Adren (who doesn't want more blinking)
Onos - Celerity (Glaciers move faster than an onos with cara)
So the speed up on onos is not enough to even let it keep up with a skulk, all the others would generally take adren as it has better combat usage (celerity and slowdown dont work in combat).
Even with celerity it takes ~15 seconds to get from one side of weil to the other as a skulk (not the worlds fastest player...) gorge and onos (the two aliens who would benefit most due to slow base speeds) who cant use vents will take even longer.
Hive to hive teleporting was a solely defensive upgrade, it offered no greater offensive advantage or caused undue pressure to be applied.
It did allow aliens to keep hives alive longer with gorges able to get to hives to heal faster. sliding is fun but its not comparable to being able to just get back to nearest Spur/hive.
Marines know if they have aliens in data core that pushing flight quickly will buy you 20+ seconds before aliens start trickling in, more than enough time to do some serious damage. Speed differential for aliens means either skulks sit and wait outside whilst hive is destroyed or risk going in unnumbered and ahead of the team. Wiser to wait until slowest skulk (if they give you number advantage) or slowest unit (ie gorges/onos) if its balanced.
Sun tzu said "an army marches as fast as its slowest man", replace marches with responds effectively and it seems fairly applicable.
Aliens already waste enough res on cysts....having to replace a hive is not like replacing a CC.
Hives are more costly, more important and slower to build.
We want to build a case for a need...rather than a want...try it and see is not offering a reason/need for something similar on aliens side.
should be an upgrade for mature shifts seeing as shifts can move things around...
I did that with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=120553&view=findpost&p=1969929" target="_blank">my post</a> a couple pages ago!
Sounds great.
Instead, lets go ahead and allow marines to prioritize waypoints for their phase gates so they don't need walk in and out of each one to reach the one they want.
The marines already have teleportation via phase gates, so I really don't want to add the same thing to the aliens unless absolutely necessary. So far it seems like more of a "want" than a "need".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still asymmetric. Marines can build PGs anywhere. And it's a 'need': we need epic battles with many reinforcement-waves. These were THE moments of NS1. Right now that only happens at Nano Grid in Veil. It should be at the Hives mainly.
Cmon you played NS1, didn't you? :D
Edit: And yes, the stuff about the Sieges is also true. No need for them right now.