Since everybody's posting a post-mortem I also want to add my thoughts.
I think what makes NS2 considerably less fun than NS1 is the reduction in asymmetry and an increase in complexity (resulting in less dynamics). I agree that the lessons-learned from NS1 was either not done properly or simply not followed through. The basic concept of a blend of RTS and FPS is still here and it makes the game a lot more fun than the average AAA game. However, potential was missed:
NS1 great strength was not only the RTS-FPS mix. It was the asymmetry and the simple gameplay in a complex environment. Aliens had no commander and they had personal res. Rines the complete opposite. This crucial game-design was abandoned - the game was made more symmetrical and a dozen of features were added that maybe looked good on paper but in reality overcomplicated the game (power grid). The replacement of the pistol with some sort of crazy taser-like weapon was a big warning sign in hindsight.
All in all, I think NS2 is not going to be the next Counter-Strike (popularity wise). I think it would have had the potential though. And it's a shame it has been missed. Both in gameplay and performance terms. But maybe/hopefully UWE will grow with this - and NS3 will be the perfect NS we all dream about.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1958276:date=Aug 6 2012, 02:03 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 6 2012, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh but I have (multiple times actually), and had vowed not to post or re-asses this game until it has had a chance to reach v1.0. This thread lured me out again I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really do hope you restart OM development. I really think there is a good niche in NS2 for a server-side game-state recorder (think insight info + SC1/2 replays, such that you can just download the demo and view the parts of the action you want).
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1958229:date=Aug 6 2012, 09:26 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 6 2012, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Its almost as if you enjoy rolling around in your discontent and smearing it all over the walls for everyone else to smell. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. The quality of discussion just went to hell. You really want to get this thread locked, don't you?
The only person I can see aggressively misbehaving is you. This thread has been very civil.
<!--quoteo(post=1958245:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because we're the real fanboys. We play NS, despite our misgivings where other people play NS blissfully (ignorant). We stick around because of our huge respect to Natural Selection and to the team, not because we love being part of some project and want cookies. We come to the forums to try and make the game better, not to *high five* design decisions whether they're good or not. We're here because, in many cases, we've committed a decade of our life to a game and we want the next installation to be just as good or better. We get impatient because we have more emotionally invested in the game and because we've been around long enough to see lessons learned and then discarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1958268:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:57 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What have I slung at whom? I said why I stick around and suddenly i'm behaving badly? Seriously, come off it. I spend the vast majority of my time constructing posts which I, at least, believe to be valuable and it's not like I go around calling everyone an idiot. In fact, you're literally the only person on these forums who I have a problem with because you're a dangerously 'eloquent' and self-righteous pt who liberally uses italic, bold and underline to support what I believe to be broken logic. Yet again, you belittle the genuine feedback in a thread (even if it is with the process rather than the game) and patronisingly suggest that we provide points without emotion - emotion is exactly what keeps me here. Just because I don't litter every post with random formatting, doesn't mean I don't have things to say. You've developed your own ridiculous way of making a point and I've developed mine.
Anyway, I hate getting sidetracked by your incessant jabs and I wish you would just let emotion run its course when it does - it is a feedback of its own. This is a NS1 -> NS2 thread after all and we're all commenting on our experiences between the two and where and why things might have gone awry. Don't presume to know what kind of respect we have, <b>definitely</b> don't accuse us of not being patient (wow) and don't deign to lord your definition of good feedback over us either. To be quite honest, this is a general discussion forum and I don't see where it says we can't discuss things between eachother.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Edit: <!--quoteo(post=1958314:date=Aug 7 2012, 12:02 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (w0dk4 @ Aug 7 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since everybody's posting a post-mortem I also want to add my thoughts.
I think what makes NS2 considerably less fun than NS1 is the reduction in asymmetry and an increase in complexity (resulting in less dynamics). I agree that the lessons-learned from NS1 was either not done properly or simply not followed through. The basic concept of a blend of RTS and FPS is still here and it makes the game a lot more fun than the average AAA game. However, potential was missed:
NS1 great strength was not only the RTS-FPS mix. It was the asymmetry and the simple gameplay in a complex environment. Aliens had no commander and they had personal res. Rines the complete opposite. This crucial game-design was abandoned - the game was made more symmetrical and a dozen of features were added that maybe looked good on paper but in reality overcomplicated the game (power grid). The replacement of the pistol with some sort of crazy taser-like weapon was a big warning sign in hindsight.
All in all, I think NS2 is not going to be the next Counter-Strike (popularity wise). I think it would have had the potential though. And it's a shame it has been missed. Both in gameplay and performance terms. But maybe/hopefully UWE will grow with this - and NS3 will be the perfect NS we all dream about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good post. I fully agree on the reduction of asymmetry.
While the game state recorder might be neat, the game play in NS2 is not something that I would want to watch TBH, its just not that exciting... The game has gotten a lot better in recent months but some of the largest key issues remain. A good point for that is just movement in general. NS1 had great base movement, which each class inherited and benefited from. I understand that bunnyhopping is and always has been a land mine of a discussion, but why stopped them from simply copying the NS1 movement minus bhop? To me it seems like an excellent base.
And another big issue IMO is the dual resource system, and balancing it. Since each resource is now separate there is little for commanders to do once they have tech'd up... While in some games this is not a problem because it ends quickly, it becomes more and more common the more balanced the game gets that the game stalemates... and that just leads to endless spam of whips, turrets, arcs, crags and whatnot. Personally that's when the game play in NS2 goes from being average, to being downright irritating and not worth playing. Combine that with pres starvation that can occur and the game just turns into AI vs AI.
There are countless more points to be made but honestly at this point the game will ship in a similar game play state, so its really looking at post 1.0. UWE says they want to make this game an e-sport and competitive, there's a lot more to making that game then just using those words.
Its also important to note that we wouldn't be posting here if we disliked UWE or hated NS.. arguably the only reason most of us still do post is the hope for NS2 to become that great competitive game... Honestly there is no other FPS game out there worth playing IMO, just a bunch of marginally acceptable ones. NS has the potential to be that great game, and the first proved that. IMO if NS1 had been released officially on steam as a free download mod (like Sven Coop or other HL1 mods), the game would still be played today in much larger numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=1958328:date=Aug 6 2012, 03:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 6 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its also important to note that we wouldn't be posting here if we disliked UWE or hated NS.. arguably the only reason most of us still do post is the hope for NS2 to become that great competitive game... Honestly there is no other FPS game out there worth playing IMO, just a bunch of marginally acceptable ones. NS has the potential to be that great game, and the first proved that. IMO if NS1 had been released officially on steam as a free download mod (like Sven Coop or other HL1 mods), the game would still be played today in much larger numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958328:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 6 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While the game state recorder might be neat, the game play in NS2 is not something that I would want to watch TBH, its just not that exciting... The game has gotten a lot better in recent months but some of the largest key issues remain. A good point for that is just movement in general. NS1 had great base movement, which each class inherited and benefited from. I understand that bunnyhopping is and always has been a land mine of a discussion, but why stopped them from simply copying the NS1 movement minus bhop? To me it seems like an excellent base.
And another big issue IMO is the dual resource system, and balancing it. Since each resource is now separate there is little for commanders to do once they have tech'd up... While in some games this is not a problem because it ends quickly, it becomes more and more common the more balanced the game gets that the game stalemates... and that just leads to endless spam of whips, turrets, arcs, crags and whatnot. Personally that's when the game play in NS2 goes from being average, to being downright irritating and not worth playing. Combine that with pres starvation that can occur and the game just turns into AI vs AI.
There are countless more points to be made but honestly at this point the game will ship in a similar game play state, so its really looking at post 1.0. UWE says they want to make this game an e-sport and competitive, there's a lot more to making that game then just using those words.
Its also important to note that we wouldn't be posting here if we disliked UWE or hated NS.. arguably the only reason most of us still do post is the hope for NS2 to become that great competitive game... Honestly there is no other FPS game out there worth playing IMO, just a bunch of marginally acceptable ones. NS has the potential to be that great game, and the first proved that. IMO if NS1 had been released officially on steam as a free download mod (like Sven Coop or other HL1 mods), the game would still be played today in much larger numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree.
You also bring up a good point in which who wants to watch a skulk chomp a power node then the RT for 5 minutes, it was bad enough in NS when it was just the RT. Also the marines babysitting said power nodes or killing the unneeded cysts and this is only minor things that need fixing.
<!--quoteo(post=1958328:date=Aug 6 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 6 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that bunnyhopping is and always has been a land mine of a discussion, but why stopped them from simply copying the NS1 movement minus bhop?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good point, good point.
I think they get distracted easily by "shiny" things like IMMERSION YEAH. It's just not the same if your screen doesn't vibrate and your marine doesn't feel like he's actually carrying 80 lbs of equipment and your skulk doesn't feel like he is a fly trying to walk on flytape and the fade isn't trying to blink though jello and the player collision isn't like playing bumper cars.. because then the game wouldn't be IMMERSIVE
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
I will agree with an earlier post that some of you guys are exaggerating a bit though. The game is quite playable as it is, even competitively. It's a bit shallow compared to NS1 and obviously performance is a problem, and balance and yadda yadda yadda, but it is playable (and I don't remember the last time I even touched a powernode as alien, thank god).
That's not to say that I disagree with many of the concerns posted here, but there's a lot of unnecessary noise in this thread, unfortunately.
<!--quoteo(post=1958340:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:53 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 6 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will agree with an earlier post that some of you guys are exaggerating a bit though. The game is quite playable as it is, even competitively. It's a bit shallow compared to NS1 and obviously performance is a problem, but it is playable (and I don't remember the last time I even touched a powernode as alien, thank god).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the powernode change of requiring a welder to repair it, it can be a big blow. Not everyone carries the welder even though the comm can magically drop one where ever they chose. Not saying you're wrong but they seem a little more important now than a glorified light swtich (but not in a good way).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
You'll see it on publics because most people don't know how to play this game efficiently, but it isn't worth it when the marines have a commander that knows what he's doing. The time you spend killing that power node costs you more than it costs the comm to drop a welder.
Obviously, power nodes is a feature I'd like to see gone sooner than later for reasons explained ad nauseum in previous threads.
There is a difference between playable and something that you would want to play for a long time like NS1... I cant see you think that NS2 is at that level currently. I do agree that it has gotten a lot better and am somewhat hopeful looking at it post 1.0... But I still think that certain things will never be changed or even refined to a point where the game will reach its true potential.
Most of the points can be boiled down to feeling restricted.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted. Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted. Powergrid restricts marine structure placement. Infestation restricts alien structure placement. The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details) The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease). Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict. RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent) Gorges restricted by hard caps.
I'm stretching my point but there is definitely a general feeling of containment in the way we play, the way we create strategies and the way we interact. I certainly don't feel like anywhere near enough has been done to address negative abilities, for example - every new feature seems to add to the pile e.g. vortex, spikewall. Where I feel restrictions have been lifted are in ability to buy personal weapons. Unfortunately, this is a seriously double-edged sword because of what Dragon has highlighted. It's created the steadily worsening res-sink problem, the tech explosion problem, the naff weapon problem, it's added complexity, it's disconnected the commander from strategy/leadership and i'm not sure it's made balancing resources for teams any easier which is why we saw it in the first place.
While I agree with a lot of the complaints it's rather futile.
These complaints aren't unique either they have been around since the very beginning of development. Charlie is creating a game he wants to play just like many other developers do. All we as nostalgic players can hope is that final vision somewhat matches our own hopes as to what the final product is supposed to be. Is it frustrating that there are alien commanders, slower marine speed when going backwards, no bunny hopping, power nodes, lack of relocation, non electrified resource nodes, turrets being garbage, and the list goes on yes. But at the end of the day it's not what we want, it's what Charlie wants as his final vision of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1958344:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:59 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 6 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll see it on publics because most people don't know how to play this game efficiently, but it isn't worth it when the marines have a commander that knows what he's doing. The time you spend killing that power node costs you more than it costs the comm to drop a welder.
Obviously, power nodes is a feature I'd like to see gone sooner than later for reasons explained ad nauseum in previous threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true, countered my own arguement and forgot we were speaking of competitive play. I'll stick with low skill ceiling then =)
<!--quoteo(post=1958348:date=Aug 6 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the points can be boiled down to feeling restricted.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted. Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted. Powergrid restricts marine structure placement. Infestation restricts alien structure placement. The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details) The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease). Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict. RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent) Gorges restricted by hard caps.
I'm stretching my point but there is definitely a general feeling of containment in the way we play, the way we create strategies and the way we interact. I certainly don't feel like anywhere near enough has been done to address negative abilities, for example - every new feature seems to add to the pile e.g. vortex, spikewall. Where I feel restrictions have been lifted are in ability to buy personal weapons. Unfortunately, this is a seriously double-edged sword because of what Dragon has highlighted. It's created the steadily worsening res-sink problem, the tech explosion problem, the naff weapon problem, it's added complexity, it's disconnected the commander from strategy/leadership and i'm not sure it's made balancing resources for teams any easier which is why we saw it in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true when looked at in those terms. NS1 allowed for creativity and didnt force people to play a certain way. It took some getting used too i.e. learning curve, but in the end it unified a team when played right and was awesome to watch.
<!--quoteo(post=1958349:date=Aug 6 2012, 11:13 PM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Aug 6 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie is creating a game he wants to play just like many other developers do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1958348:date=Aug 7 2012, 01:09 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 7 2012, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the points can be boiled down to feeling restricted.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted. Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted. Powergrid restricts marine structure placement. Infestation restricts alien structure placement. The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details) The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease). Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict. RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent) Gorges restricted by hard caps.
I'm stretching my point but there is definitely a general feeling of containment in the way we play, the way we create strategies and the way we interact. I certainly don't feel like anywhere near enough has been done to address negative abilities, for example - every new feature seems to add to the pile e.g. vortex, spikewall. Where I feel restrictions have been lifted are in ability to buy personal weapons. Unfortunately, this is a seriously double-edged sword because of what Dragon has highlighted. It's created the steadily worsening res-sink problem, the tech explosion problem, the naff weapon problem, it's added complexity, it's disconnected the commander from strategy/leadership and i'm not sure it's made balancing resources for teams any easier which is why we saw it in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
D3 has restrictions and gamers play the crap outta that game. Luckily Torchlight 2 is coming out so if I want complete freedom, I'm not worried ^_^
Sometimes I feel the video game industry wants to go into this direction to simplify gameplay for newer players. I don't blame NS2 for obviously going this way since the AAAs are doing the same. You gotta follow the money trail too. I'm not even mad because this can work if everything else is done correctly. So far I love NS2 and I'm waiting on that Exosuit mech it's making me go crazy >< I wanna see it now!!
At this point we really need to hear from Charlie, its honestly down right disrespectful if he can't spare 20mins to respond to feed back from his fans who backed him all this way..
<!--quoteo(post=1957034:date=Aug 4 2012, 09:52 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 4 2012, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this very moment I consider NS2 to be superior to NS1 in pretty much every way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1958348:date=Aug 6 2012, 04:09 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the points can be boiled down to feeling restricted.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted. Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted. Powergrid restricts marine structure placement. Infestation restricts alien structure placement. The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details) The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease). Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict. RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent) Gorges restricted by hard caps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All games have restrictions, otherwise they'd just be sandboxes like gmod or minecraft. Its not like NS1 didn't have its fair share of restrictive elements. That doesn't mean you have to agree with all the restrictions in place (or how they are implemented), but if you took out the restrictions, you wouldn't have a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1958364:date=Aug 6 2012, 04:10 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 6 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All games have restrictions, otherwise they'd just be sandboxes like gmod or minecraft. Its not like NS1 didn't have its fair share of restrictive elements. That doesn't mean you have to agree with all the restrictions in place (or how they are implemented), but if you took out the restrictions, you wouldn't have a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plus were playing a game where we depend on Comm communication.. What if our comm wanted to build a new base in some ###### room? Not all comms are gonna be smarter than the last one so at least with the restrictions we have, we can build nicely enough ;)
NS1 aliens were very restricted about where you can place a hive. Isn't that the same :/ because now Marines have it too, but it's not that bad. It helps new comms out too.
For those who don't know me, I'm an old NS1 player who was around during the NSTR and played for many years. I haven't logged many hours in NS2 at all -- maybe as few as 24? That's because NS2 doesn't really hold my interest. (edit: I don't mean to say that NS2 is a poor game... it's quite possible that it's just not for me.)
The single biggest issue: Lack of movement skill / depth.
The next biggest issue (that I haven't seen addressed yet): Poor map design.
In NS1 the bigger maps really made the game play better. There were more hallways which created awesome skulk/marine gameplay and allowed a team to actually scout, intercept, or prepare for an incoming attack. In NS2 I feel like a room is under attack, almost nonstop, and the only way to really 'defend' is to just coordinate (read; scream/complain) over the mic to have a big counter rush to a different area of the map. Because, in NS2, the battles are so common I feel like my performance and death matter a lot less. In NS1 if I solo'ed two skulks I would usually have a chance to deal some kind of damage to their team, like taking down an RT. In NS2, if I solo two skulks there are two more a few seconds away.
I was excited when I first heard that NS2 would have smaller maps. I had thought, back in the NS1 days, that teams were uncoordinated and just rambo'ed around because of the size of the maps. After playing NS2, I realize teams are still uncoordinated and now the smaller maps just removes all the really cool parts of early/mid game NS.
just to be clear, by no means is ns2 a bad game, i'm just concerned about whether the game is ready for prime time. i guess it will be, if the promised performance improvements come through. if they do, then the game has at least a fighting chance at becoming a huge success, given that it's pretty much, as fana and others have pointed out, the only real competitor in its genre, and far superior already to nuclear dawn. the other factor besides performance is some semblance of cohesiveness and balance to the game. i'm sure that after release there can be patches to bring the competitive factor up to par - same thing happened with starcraft. but the basic framework to gain and retain casuals needs to be there. i'm sorry if i come off as gruff, but i just don't want this game to have a massive population die off as so many other games do. i don't want to see 95% empty servers in 6 months because of a rushed release.
SloppyKissesomgawd a furreh!VirginiaJoin Date: 2003-07-05Member: 17942Members, Constellation
I personally thing the game has a long way to go yet and that the launch date should be pushed back. It's still seems to be lacking many things that can make this a far superior game than it already is. Although, with that said I still currently think NS1 is better.
While the topic may be directed towards NS 1 players I can't help but think regardless of how NS1 players feel, being that NS 2 is a game <b>being sold</b> the opinions of those new to the NS universe are obviously equally important.
I'm willing to put money on the number of initial preorders leading up to Alpha 1 were <b>mostly</b> NS 1 players. I distinctly recall reading on these forums the people complaining how NS 2 was nothing like NS 1 being told "if you want to play NS 1 you can right now, here is the link". That said, it is understandable why NS 1 fans who dislike many of the changes are disgruntled and feel betrayed etc. Admittedly, when I read that I had a sinking feeling Flayra had put on his developer blinders and was going to do what he wanted from then on out whether or not the new features (khammander/power nodes etc) had been successful or not, that he would somehow "make it work".
Personally speaking, I have never understood the new direction this game started off in earlier in the release builds, especially having had such a huge following for a mod, that in itself is mind boggling to me why you would ever want to make such drastic changes to an already successful game in NS 1. I did not play the early alphas for long because the core game play felt nothing like NS 1. But this is NS 2 right? It is supposed to be a new game! Wrong, the core experience of a game should never feel different in sequels, which is why I don't enjoy NS 2. These forums are filled with people complaining about just about every aspect of NS 2, which is honestly not a whole lot different from most game forums so it is understandable why the developers don't take it too serious. That said, there are several legitimate complaints about NS 2 I feel the developers should take a serious look at.
Let's be honest here folks, NS 2 is a product after all and when you have a customers who pays you money for your product and they are not happy with that product, they can and almost always will complain. Regarding how people are enjoying the game, player count is usually a good sign on how well people in general are enjoying your product, and it doesn't matter if you were here since 2002 or just joined the forum a week ago. The number of active player to preorder count ratio has always been pretty low. <a href="http://www.game-monitor.com/search.php?game=naturalselection22" target="_blank">Natural Selection 2 active players</a>
It really doesn't matter this late in the development cycle if NS 1 players are enjoying the game, rather the combined community. How is everyone enjoying the game? Just take a look at the active player count. Who'd of thunk that people play games they actually enjoy, rather that post complaints on forums like this one?
well, the player count has been dropping. when you have a marketing budget of pretty much 0 like uwe does, you rely on word of mouth, and word of mouth is generated by good first impressions, q.e.d. it does matter if ns1 players are enjoying the game, and new players aren't just enjoying, they're having an experience that is completely unlike anything they've had before.
that's the way i felt about ns1. it was a transcendent experience, and completely blew away everything i had ever known about gaming up until that point. that's what i wish new players to ns2 would feel about it.
In all honesty, I love NS2 but its not balanced and a lot of things just dont seem right but im really glad this isnt just NS1:HD, as awesome as that would be im glad they are trying new things.
But NS1 took a long time to get to where it is now after release.
NS2 has plenty of time to change, way too many people are thinking all the stuff is set in stone and wont ever change.
They have already completely changed the way is played multiple times, having macs/drifters being the builders, gorges being the main creep spreader, multiple commanders, machine gun + Grenades.
All that stuff changed, and NS2 still has plenty of time to change, even after release.
<!--quoteo(post=1958229:date=Aug 6 2012, 07:26 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 6 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To this attitude and not specifically you, player:
Then leave? I dont get the reason why some of you play ns2 with frowns.. everyday, and yet the thought of just not playing or posting anymore has yet to gain any real momentum with you. <b>Its almost as if you enjoy rolling around in your discontent and smearing it all over the walls for everyone else to smell. </b>
<i>Thats why you get responses like hillbilly's</i>. Your feedback doesn't stop at the helpful level, your discontent seeps through every chance it gets, never missing a moment to explain how you think things are wrong what you think is right.
<i>"Any gratitude, kindness and patience they get is a bonus"</i> Just like any rude, crass, condescending, self righteous attitudes thrown their way,<b> is not required</b> and is not <b>necessary</b> to perform your role as a feedback giving individual. In other words, some of us just think you make these forums a worse place for everyone and we'd rather you just saved it - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/community" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/community</a> "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its like the story of the king with no clothes, your basically telling everyone to keep quiet and that criticisms arent required, in order to protect the kings feelings.
Your level of fanboy'ism is disgusting. We have all invested our time and money into this game .... and your telling us to disappear because we aren't constructive ? We must make bullet point presentations ? We have a "role" as a feedback giving individual ? Seriously ....
UWE is making a product that i chose to invest in, isn't it only natural that i would want my investment to pan out ??? It seems this concept goes over peoples heads, its like they haven't invested in the game but rather signed up to be apart of a fanboy culture.
<!--quoteo(post=1958396:date=Aug 7 2012, 02:11 AM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Aug 7 2012, 02:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all honesty, I love NS2 but its not balanced and a lot of things just dont seem right but im really glad this isnt just NS1:HD, as awesome as that would be im glad they are trying new things.
But NS1 took a long time to get to where it is now after release.
NS2 has plenty of time to change, way too many people are thinking all the stuff is set in stone and wont ever change.
They have already completely changed the way is played multiple times, having macs/drifters being the builders, gorges being the main creep spreader, multiple commanders, machine gun + Grenades.
All that stuff changed, and NS2 still has plenty of time to change, even after release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was free, NS2 is not. I dont believe it will have the time to grow. I played MW for a week and was digusted, i havent touched it since. Same with its rival which i forget the name of. People will do the same with NS2 as far as snap judgements go. Let's hope it js up to par enough for the unforgiving mainstream.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957028:date=Aug 4 2012, 11:45 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 4 2012, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the game is coming out in 2months dev's have said its pretty much feature complete the only thing we haven't seen is the heavy but its pretty easy to see how that will fit in with the game...
Ignoring the performance issues are any old school players actually satisfied with NS2 has it lived up to your expectations? Are you pumped enough about the game to encourages others to buy it?
I am personally very unhappy with the game and if I knew this is what it was going to be like I probably would not have bought the game..
Majority of my grips are with the aliens there are some massive game play issues which are game breaking and then there are some things I find way less fun the NS1...
My gripes....
If an alien kills your base power node and you have no welders researched game over regardless of how far ahead u are so your entire existence is based on 1 research item and 1 structure u have no control over...
There is still no way to let aliens move between hives quickly like in NS1 with the teleporting feature, the attempt to fix this problem with celerity was a massive fail this forever will have a major negative impact on alien gameplay..
Aliens can become res locked if you manage to loose all your res nodes with less then 15 res its game over this wasn't the case in NS1 because of RFK and gorge building..
Power nodes powering buildings I find to be an extra level of management which isn't fun or interesting...
Gorge has nothing on his NS1 existence, he is only good at the start of the game and falls off hard. The limit of 3 hydra's really limits the ability for the gorge to lay down defence in spawn to stop ninja attacks and then push forward with his team...
Alien commander is is boring and tedious you feel like your strapped to a chair with a live grenade in your lap unlike the marine commander who's role actually feels like it belongs...
No relocation strategies and free base building for marines makes the gameplay feel stale.
So unfortunately NS2 for me is a disappointment, how do other NS1 players feel?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of these things are easily fixed / balanced out.
I'm enjoying NS2 thoroughly, sure there are improvements to be made though(especially in the fundamentals - that being performance, controls and "feel" of the game).
The only thing I really miss from ns1 was crazy relocations - you can't freely relocate anymore I guess you can setup phase gates early on though.
You've said in your own post the game is 2 months (at least) away from release - yet you are judging it as a final release. If you are still unsatisfied its not too late to ask for a refund.
<!--quoteo(post=1958357:date=Aug 7 2012, 09:48 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 7 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this point we really need to hear from Charlie, its honestly down right disrespectful if he can't spare 20mins to respond to feed back from his fans who backed him all this way..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you are just being a drama queen. Charlie doesn't owe you anything. (except that whole eternal gratitude thing :P) Do you want Charlie to spend several hours sifting through this hudrends of posts long thread for a few days or do want him to perhaps spend his time fixing some of the issues you are complaining about in the first place?
<!--quoteo(post=1957083:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:56 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 5 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people like NS1 so much, why don't they play NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to agree, and no doubt someone will make an NS1 clone mod for NS2 - which might be just what you are after Kabab :)
Comments
I think what makes NS2 considerably less fun than NS1 is the reduction in asymmetry and an increase in complexity (resulting in less dynamics).
I agree that the lessons-learned from NS1 was either not done properly or simply not followed through.
The basic concept of a blend of RTS and FPS is still here and it makes the game a lot more fun than the average AAA game. However, potential was missed:
NS1 great strength was not only the RTS-FPS mix. It was the asymmetry and the simple gameplay in a complex environment.
Aliens had no commander and they had personal res. Rines the complete opposite.
This crucial game-design was abandoned - the game was made more symmetrical and a dozen of features were added that maybe looked good on paper but in reality overcomplicated the game (power grid).
The replacement of the pistol with some sort of crazy taser-like weapon was a big warning sign in hindsight.
All in all, I think NS2 is not going to be the next Counter-Strike (popularity wise). I think it would have had the potential though. And it's a shame it has been missed. Both in gameplay and performance terms.
But maybe/hopefully UWE will grow with this - and NS3 will be the perfect NS we all dream about.
I really do hope you restart OM development. I really think there is a good niche in NS2 for a server-side game-state recorder (think insight info + SC1/2 replays, such that you can just download the demo and view the parts of the action you want).
Wow. The quality of discussion just went to hell. You really want to get this thread locked, don't you?
The only person I can see aggressively misbehaving is you. This thread has been very civil.
<!--quoteo(post=1958245:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because we're the real fanboys. We play NS, despite our misgivings where other people play NS blissfully (ignorant). We stick around because of our huge respect to Natural Selection and to the team, not because we love being part of some project and want cookies. We come to the forums to try and make the game better, not to *high five* design decisions whether they're good or not. We're here because, in many cases, we've committed a decade of our life to a game and we want the next installation to be just as good or better. We get impatient because we have more emotionally invested in the game and because we've been around long enough to see lessons learned and then discarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958268:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:57 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What have I slung at whom? I said why I stick around and suddenly i'm behaving badly? Seriously, come off it. I spend the vast majority of my time constructing posts which I, at least, believe to be valuable and it's not like I go around calling everyone an idiot. In fact, you're literally the only person on these forums who I have a problem with because you're a dangerously 'eloquent' and self-righteous pt who liberally uses italic, bold and underline to support what I believe to be broken logic. Yet again, you belittle the genuine feedback in a thread (even if it is with the process rather than the game) and patronisingly suggest that we provide points without emotion - emotion is exactly what keeps me here. Just because I don't litter every post with random formatting, doesn't mean I don't have things to say. You've developed your own ridiculous way of making a point and I've developed mine.
Anyway, I hate getting sidetracked by your incessant jabs and I wish you would just let emotion run its course when it does - it is a feedback of its own. This is a NS1 -> NS2 thread after all and we're all commenting on our experiences between the two and where and why things might have gone awry. Don't presume to know what kind of respect we have, <b>definitely</b> don't accuse us of not being patient (wow) and don't deign to lord your definition of good feedback over us either. To be quite honest, this is a general discussion forum and I don't see where it says we can't discuss things between eachother.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1958314:date=Aug 7 2012, 12:02 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (w0dk4 @ Aug 7 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since everybody's posting a post-mortem I also want to add my thoughts.
I think what makes NS2 considerably less fun than NS1 is the reduction in asymmetry and an increase in complexity (resulting in less dynamics).
I agree that the lessons-learned from NS1 was either not done properly or simply not followed through.
The basic concept of a blend of RTS and FPS is still here and it makes the game a lot more fun than the average AAA game. However, potential was missed:
NS1 great strength was not only the RTS-FPS mix. It was the asymmetry and the simple gameplay in a complex environment.
Aliens had no commander and they had personal res. Rines the complete opposite.
This crucial game-design was abandoned - the game was made more symmetrical and a dozen of features were added that maybe looked good on paper but in reality overcomplicated the game (power grid).
The replacement of the pistol with some sort of crazy taser-like weapon was a big warning sign in hindsight.
All in all, I think NS2 is not going to be the next Counter-Strike (popularity wise). I think it would have had the potential though. And it's a shame it has been missed. Both in gameplay and performance terms.
But maybe/hopefully UWE will grow with this - and NS3 will be the perfect NS we all dream about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good post. I fully agree on the reduction of asymmetry.
And another big issue IMO is the dual resource system, and balancing it. Since each resource is now separate there is little for commanders to do once they have tech'd up... While in some games this is not a problem because it ends quickly, it becomes more and more common the more balanced the game gets that the game stalemates... and that just leads to endless spam of whips, turrets, arcs, crags and whatnot. Personally that's when the game play in NS2 goes from being average, to being downright irritating and not worth playing. Combine that with pres starvation that can occur and the game just turns into AI vs AI.
There are countless more points to be made but honestly at this point the game will ship in a similar game play state, so its really looking at post 1.0. UWE says they want to make this game an e-sport and competitive, there's a lot more to making that game then just using those words.
Its also important to note that we wouldn't be posting here if we disliked UWE or hated NS.. arguably the only reason most of us still do post is the hope for NS2 to become that great competitive game... Honestly there is no other FPS game out there worth playing IMO, just a bunch of marginally acceptable ones. NS has the potential to be that great game, and the first proved that. IMO if NS1 had been released officially on steam as a free download mod (like Sven Coop or other HL1 mods), the game would still be played today in much larger numbers.
+1
And another big issue IMO is the dual resource system, and balancing it. Since each resource is now separate there is little for commanders to do once they have tech'd up... While in some games this is not a problem because it ends quickly, it becomes more and more common the more balanced the game gets that the game stalemates... and that just leads to endless spam of whips, turrets, arcs, crags and whatnot. Personally that's when the game play in NS2 goes from being average, to being downright irritating and not worth playing. Combine that with pres starvation that can occur and the game just turns into AI vs AI.
There are countless more points to be made but honestly at this point the game will ship in a similar game play state, so its really looking at post 1.0. UWE says they want to make this game an e-sport and competitive, there's a lot more to making that game then just using those words.
Its also important to note that we wouldn't be posting here if we disliked UWE or hated NS.. arguably the only reason most of us still do post is the hope for NS2 to become that great competitive game... Honestly there is no other FPS game out there worth playing IMO, just a bunch of marginally acceptable ones. NS has the potential to be that great game, and the first proved that. IMO if NS1 had been released officially on steam as a free download mod (like Sven Coop or other HL1 mods), the game would still be played today in much larger numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree.
You also bring up a good point in which who wants to watch a skulk chomp a power node then the RT for 5 minutes, it was bad enough in NS when it was just the RT. Also the marines babysitting said power nodes or killing the unneeded cysts and this is only minor things that need fixing.
Not at the competitive level yet imo.
good point, good point.
I think they get distracted easily by "shiny" things like IMMERSION YEAH. It's just not the same if your screen doesn't vibrate and your marine doesn't feel like he's actually carrying 80 lbs of equipment and your skulk doesn't feel like he is a fly trying to walk on flytape and the fade isn't trying to blink though jello and the player collision isn't like playing bumper cars.. because then the game wouldn't be IMMERSIVE
..wait I forgot where I was going with that
That's not to say that I disagree with many of the concerns posted here, but there's a lot of unnecessary noise in this thread, unfortunately.
With the powernode change of requiring a welder to repair it, it can be a big blow. Not everyone carries the welder even though the comm can magically drop one where ever they chose. Not saying you're wrong but they seem a little more important now than a glorified light swtich (but not in a good way).
Obviously, power nodes is a feature I'd like to see gone sooner than later for reasons explained ad nauseum in previous threads.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted.
Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted.
Powergrid restricts marine structure placement.
Infestation restricts alien structure placement.
The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details)
The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease).
Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict.
RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent)
Gorges restricted by hard caps.
I'm stretching my point but there is definitely a general feeling of containment in the way we play, the way we create strategies and the way we interact. I certainly don't feel like anywhere near enough has been done to address negative abilities, for example - every new feature seems to add to the pile e.g. vortex, spikewall. Where I feel restrictions have been lifted are in ability to buy personal weapons. Unfortunately, this is a seriously double-edged sword because of what Dragon has highlighted. It's created the steadily worsening res-sink problem, the tech explosion problem, the naff weapon problem, it's added complexity, it's disconnected the commander from strategy/leadership and i'm not sure it's made balancing resources for teams any easier which is why we saw it in the first place.
These complaints aren't unique either they have been around since the very beginning of development. Charlie is creating a game he wants to play just like many other developers do. All we as nostalgic players can hope is that final vision somewhat matches our own hopes as to what the final product is supposed to be. Is it frustrating that there are alien commanders, slower marine speed when going backwards, no bunny hopping, power nodes, lack of relocation, non electrified resource nodes, turrets being garbage, and the list goes on yes. But at the end of the day it's not what we want, it's what Charlie wants as his final vision of the game.
Obviously, power nodes is a feature I'd like to see gone sooner than later for reasons explained ad nauseum in previous threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true, countered my own arguement and forgot we were speaking of competitive play. I'll stick with low skill ceiling then =)
<!--quoteo(post=1958348:date=Aug 6 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the points can be boiled down to feeling restricted.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted.
Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted.
Powergrid restricts marine structure placement.
Infestation restricts alien structure placement.
The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details)
The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease).
Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict.
RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent)
Gorges restricted by hard caps.
I'm stretching my point but there is definitely a general feeling of containment in the way we play, the way we create strategies and the way we interact. I certainly don't feel like anywhere near enough has been done to address negative abilities, for example - every new feature seems to add to the pile e.g. vortex, spikewall. Where I feel restrictions have been lifted are in ability to buy personal weapons. Unfortunately, this is a seriously double-edged sword because of what Dragon has highlighted. It's created the steadily worsening res-sink problem, the tech explosion problem, the naff weapon problem, it's added complexity, it's disconnected the commander from strategy/leadership and i'm not sure it's made balancing resources for teams any easier which is why we saw it in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true when looked at in those terms. NS1 allowed for creativity and didnt force people to play a certain way. It took some getting used too i.e. learning curve, but in the end it unified a team when played right and was awesome to watch.
<!--quoteo(post=1958349:date=Aug 6 2012, 11:13 PM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Aug 6 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie is creating a game he wants to play just like many other developers do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He might want to do more of this tbh.
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted.
Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted.
Powergrid restricts marine structure placement.
Infestation restricts alien structure placement.
The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details)
The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease).
Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict.
RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent)
Gorges restricted by hard caps.
I'm stretching my point but there is definitely a general feeling of containment in the way we play, the way we create strategies and the way we interact. I certainly don't feel like anywhere near enough has been done to address negative abilities, for example - every new feature seems to add to the pile e.g. vortex, spikewall. Where I feel restrictions have been lifted are in ability to buy personal weapons. Unfortunately, this is a seriously double-edged sword because of what Dragon has highlighted. It's created the steadily worsening res-sink problem, the tech explosion problem, the naff weapon problem, it's added complexity, it's disconnected the commander from strategy/leadership and i'm not sure it's made balancing resources for teams any easier which is why we saw it in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that sums it up very good.
Sometimes I feel the video game industry wants to go into this direction to simplify gameplay for newer players. I don't blame NS2 for obviously going this way since the AAAs are doing the same. You gotta follow the money trail too. I'm not even mad because this can work if everything else is done correctly. So far I love NS2 and I'm waiting on that Exosuit mech it's making me go crazy >< I wanna see it now!!
quoting this forever
Poor movement systems make you feel restricted.
Immersion via screen shaking and darkness make you feel visually restricted.
Powergrid restricts marine structure placement.
Infestation restricts alien structure placement.
The ridiculously similar colour scheme is just one massive visual restriction. (Even alien vision feels restricting because you then sacrifice texture details)
The maps are cluttered and restrict ease of traversal (this will probably ease).
Many features introduced are literally designed to restrict.
RFD restricts players getting res (RFK could have awarded it as a direct equivalent)
Gorges restricted by hard caps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All games have restrictions, otherwise they'd just be sandboxes like gmod or minecraft. Its not like NS1 didn't have its fair share of restrictive elements. That doesn't mean you have to agree with all the restrictions in place (or how they are implemented), but if you took out the restrictions, you wouldn't have a game.
Plus were playing a game where we depend on Comm communication.. What if our comm wanted to build a new base in some ###### room? Not all comms are gonna be smarter than the last one so at least with the restrictions we have, we can build nicely enough ;)
NS1 aliens were very restricted about where you can place a hive. Isn't that the same :/ because now Marines have it too, but it's not that bad. It helps new comms out too.
The single biggest issue: Lack of movement skill / depth.
The next biggest issue (that I haven't seen addressed yet): Poor map design.
In NS1 the bigger maps really made the game play better. There were more hallways which created awesome skulk/marine gameplay and allowed a team to actually scout, intercept, or prepare for an incoming attack. In NS2 I feel like a room is under attack, almost nonstop, and the only way to really 'defend' is to just coordinate (read; scream/complain) over the mic to have a big counter rush to a different area of the map. Because, in NS2, the battles are so common I feel like my performance and death matter a lot less. In NS1 if I solo'ed two skulks I would usually have a chance to deal some kind of damage to their team, like taking down an RT. In NS2, if I solo two skulks there are two more a few seconds away.
I was excited when I first heard that NS2 would have smaller maps. I had thought, back in the NS1 days, that teams were uncoordinated and just rambo'ed around because of the size of the maps. After playing NS2, I realize teams are still uncoordinated and now the smaller maps just removes all the really cool parts of early/mid game NS.
I'm willing to put money on the number of initial preorders leading up to Alpha 1 were <b>mostly</b> NS 1 players. I distinctly recall reading on these forums the people complaining how NS 2 was nothing like NS 1 being told "if you want to play NS 1 you can right now, here is the link". That said, it is understandable why NS 1 fans who dislike many of the changes are disgruntled and feel betrayed etc. Admittedly, when I read that I had a sinking feeling Flayra had put on his developer blinders and was going to do what he wanted from then on out whether or not the new features (khammander/power nodes etc) had been successful or not, that he would somehow "make it work".
Personally speaking, I have never understood the new direction this game started off in earlier in the release builds, especially having had such a huge following for a mod, that in itself is mind boggling to me why you would ever want to make such drastic changes to an already successful game in NS 1. I did not play the early alphas for long because the core game play felt nothing like NS 1. But this is NS 2 right? It is supposed to be a new game! Wrong, the core experience of a game should never feel different in sequels, which is why I don't enjoy NS 2. These forums are filled with people complaining about just about every aspect of NS 2, which is honestly not a whole lot different from most game forums so it is understandable why the developers don't take it too serious. That said, there are several legitimate complaints about NS 2 I feel the developers should take a serious look at.
Let's be honest here folks, NS 2 is a product after all and when you have a customers who pays you money for your product and they are not happy with that product, they can and almost always will complain. Regarding how people are enjoying the game, player count is usually a good sign on how well people in general are enjoying your product, and it doesn't matter if you were here since 2002 or just joined the forum a week ago. The number of active player to preorder count ratio has always been pretty low. <a href="http://www.game-monitor.com/search.php?game=naturalselection22" target="_blank">Natural Selection 2 active players</a>
It really doesn't matter this late in the development cycle if NS 1 players are enjoying the game, rather the combined community. How is everyone enjoying the game? Just take a look at the active player count. Who'd of thunk that people play games they actually enjoy, rather that post complaints on forums like this one?
that's the way i felt about ns1. it was a transcendent experience, and completely blew away everything i had ever known about gaming up until that point. that's what i wish new players to ns2 would feel about it.
But NS1 took a long time to get to where it is now after release.
NS2 has plenty of time to change, way too many people are thinking all the stuff is set in stone and wont ever change.
They have already completely changed the way is played multiple times, having macs/drifters being the builders, gorges being the main creep spreader, multiple commanders, machine gun + Grenades.
All that stuff changed, and NS2 still has plenty of time to change, even after release.
Then leave?
I dont get the reason why some of you play ns2 with frowns.. everyday, and yet the thought of just not playing or posting anymore has yet to gain any real momentum with you.
<b>Its almost as if you enjoy rolling around in your discontent and smearing it all over the walls for everyone else to smell. </b>
<i>Thats why you get responses like hillbilly's</i>. Your feedback doesn't stop at the helpful level, your discontent seeps through every chance it gets, never missing a moment to explain how you think things are wrong what you think is right.
<i>"Any gratitude, kindness and patience they get is a bonus"</i>
Just like any rude, crass, condescending, self righteous attitudes thrown their way,<b> is not required</b> and is not <b>necessary</b> to perform your role as a feedback giving individual.
In other words, some of us just think you make these forums a worse place for everyone and we'd rather you just saved it -
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/community" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/community</a>
"If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its like the story of the king with no clothes, your basically telling everyone to keep quiet and that criticisms arent required, in order to protect the kings feelings.
Your level of fanboy'ism is disgusting. We have all invested our time and money into this game .... and your telling us to disappear because we aren't constructive ? We must make bullet point presentations ? We have a "role" as a feedback giving individual ? Seriously ....
UWE is making a product that i chose to invest in, isn't it only natural that i would want my investment to pan out ??? It seems this concept goes over peoples heads, its like they haven't invested in the game but rather signed up to be apart of a fanboy culture.
But NS1 took a long time to get to where it is now after release.
NS2 has plenty of time to change, way too many people are thinking all the stuff is set in stone and wont ever change.
They have already completely changed the way is played multiple times, having macs/drifters being the builders, gorges being the main creep spreader, multiple commanders, machine gun + Grenades.
All that stuff changed, and NS2 still has plenty of time to change, even after release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was free, NS2 is not. I dont believe it will have the time to grow. I played MW for a week and was digusted, i havent touched it since. Same with its rival which i forget the name of. People will do the same with NS2 as far as snap judgements go. Let's hope it js up to par enough for the unforgiving mainstream.
Ignoring the performance issues are any old school players actually satisfied with NS2 has it lived up to your expectations? Are you pumped enough about the game to encourages others to buy it?
I am personally very unhappy with the game and if I knew this is what it was going to be like I probably would not have bought the game..
Majority of my grips are with the aliens there are some massive game play issues which are game breaking and then there are some things I find way less fun the NS1...
My gripes....
If an alien kills your base power node and you have no welders researched game over regardless of how far ahead u are so your entire existence is based on 1 research item and 1 structure u have no control over...
There is still no way to let aliens move between hives quickly like in NS1 with the teleporting feature, the attempt to fix this problem with celerity was a massive fail this forever will have a major negative impact on alien gameplay..
Aliens can become res locked if you manage to loose all your res nodes with less then 15 res its game over this wasn't the case in NS1 because of RFK and gorge building..
Power nodes powering buildings I find to be an extra level of management which isn't fun or interesting...
Gorge has nothing on his NS1 existence, he is only good at the start of the game and falls off hard. The limit of 3 hydra's really limits the ability for the gorge to lay down defence in spawn to stop ninja attacks and then push forward with his team...
Alien commander is is boring and tedious you feel like your strapped to a chair with a live grenade in your lap unlike the marine commander who's role actually feels like it belongs...
No relocation strategies and free base building for marines makes the gameplay feel stale.
So unfortunately NS2 for me is a disappointment, how do other NS1 players feel?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of these things are easily fixed / balanced out.
I'm enjoying NS2 thoroughly, sure there are improvements to be made though(especially in the fundamentals - that being performance, controls and "feel" of the game).
The only thing I really miss from ns1 was crazy relocations - you can't freely relocate anymore I guess you can setup phase gates early on though.
You've said in your own post the game is 2 months (at least) away from release - yet you are judging it as a final release. If you are still unsatisfied its not too late to ask for a refund.
<!--quoteo(post=1958357:date=Aug 7 2012, 09:48 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 7 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this point we really need to hear from Charlie, its honestly down right disrespectful if he can't spare 20mins to respond to feed back from his fans who backed him all this way..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you are just being a drama queen. Charlie doesn't owe you anything. (except that whole eternal gratitude thing :P)
Do you want Charlie to spend several hours sifting through this hudrends of posts long thread for a few days or do want him to perhaps spend his time fixing some of the issues you are complaining about in the first place?
<!--quoteo(post=1957083:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:56 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 5 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If people like NS1 so much, why don't they play NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree, and no doubt someone will make an NS1 clone mod for NS2 - which might be just what you are after Kabab :)