Yup, it's probably harder now than ever to find a perfect balance team because of how snubbed many of the worthy candidates feel and perhaps because of how time-constrained that team would be now. I also agree that competency is not the sole indicator of role-suitability although we will all agree that it is a component of it - the only component that we can objectively say that is lacking at the moment. Either way, I find it impossible to believe that there aren't people that can comprise of a team that would at least yield <i>some</i> benefit. Lastly the difficulty in creating a team, or at least a format, for good balance discussion falls on my deaf ears when it hasn't even been attempted.
I still think it is something that should be done, and that it would be benifical if done. I do think a format that allowed feedback to be provided more directly.. if not totally directly would allow for the feedback to be presented in a much more constructive way, and less of a this is broken plz fix way.
I already ruined my chance but there are others out there that would work hard at something like this.
I think a big part of all the balance issues is that there is no real metagame yet.
NS1 has a metagame when it comes to the official maps, the last few servers of NS1 are all vets, the coms are vets and know what to do, and people know the game inside and out.
NS2 is all new, there is no metagame, people are still learning, the game itself wont make it, the players will and that takes time and will always be changing until it becomes refined and perfect.
I hardly see any commanders use half the stuff they have.
<!--quoteo(post=1958676:date=Aug 7 2012, 01:17 PM:name=Hoodedsniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hoodedsniper @ Aug 7 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hardly see any commanders use half the stuff they have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MACs, Drifters, and ARCs still have painful pathing on many maps. so I don't use them. Becuase I should be spending my time elsewhere dropping other stuff.
I don't have time to walk my drifter to the front line. Because otherwise it tends to get stuck up a wall...
<!--quoteo(post=1957531:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:50 AM:name=wey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wey @ Aug 5 2012, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played NS1 since the NSTR and NS2 since the NS2TR, so I've played since the very beginning, was a competitive ns1 player for years, PT, made the 3.0 trailer, and generally one of those hardcore fans from day 0. I agree with player: It's time for tough talk. This forum is absolutely flooded with ridiculous fanboys (antacid), while the people who actually understand the game get smashed
Major flaws with NS2: - Alien Comm has to go. No fun, annoying, opposing asymmetry, and ruins gorges which worked perfectly in NS1 - Tech points need to go, as well as power nodes. They restrict freedom (no fun relocates) and generally don't serve any purpose besides being an extra layer of annoyance - movement is just bad mostly. not skill-based, no learning curve, slow - static defenses are bad. cut the whips and especially the hydras. and if the ridiculous free buildings are still in: Don't do that, it's blatantly obvious a bad idea on so many levels. Just make NS1 model: Aliens have Pres, marines Tres. Simple and beautiful - While I can understand that ARC's seemed to be a good idea in the first place, it's now obvious they don't work. The fun NS1 fights around TF's upgrading, holding the siege positions etc were a huge aspect that's now gone. - Chambers are too complicated. Why crag, shift etc? NS1's movement, sensory, defense were perfect names with clear functions. KISS! - Performance. If this stays even remotely as it is now, this game is unplayable for most people and a borderline audacity to sell without a big warning sign. Promises are made all the time, but the actual performance increases from the first versions are tiny. No one expected great AND fast graphics with such a small team, so face reality
good stuff: - infestation - belly slide - buying own gear works surprisingly well
So frankly NS2 does barely have any of the things that were fun in NS1, while adding almost nothing. Honestly this feels like Star Wars/George Lucas all over again. Got lucky with Ep4-6 / NS1, but absolutely crushing the successor. The amount of mindblowingly bad design decisions during the beta were astonishing, despite a lot of die hard fans giving invaluable feedback (fana etc). This could all be fixed by just cutting all the bad crap, and scale down the graphics to a level that would run fine, but there is no indication that the game is heading in any good direction at all. I'll stick around for 1.0, but sadly feel that this is in a very grim state.
And what's with alle the "NS1 took years to become good"? Even if that would be true, this isn't good old Half-Life 1 mod times anymore. This game has to be good now, or at the very least at release. It'll die a sudden death otherwise<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post hits so many good points. Alien comm has been such a bad idea from the start. It ruins the point of the gorge and is never fun to play. I love starcraft so every time I play NS2 I jump into comm and it's miserable. It is clunky and there is nothing fun to do. Basically that last sentence sums up NS2 for me. It is clunky and there is nothing fun. NS1 is smooth and moving is satisfying. Nothing else matters in a FPS if the movement is bad. No matter how deep your game is it won't be fun if it's awkward to move and attack. The problem here is that the frame rate is bad and there are weird graphical stutters, the movement isn't as good as NS1 and you get stuck on stuff, but also there isn't even any more strategic depth to the game.
I got my entire counter-strike team of 9 people to buy this game because of my hype for it, and it's been quite a long time since then and we have yet to enjoy a game. We hop on every now and then, get frustrated as hell with the stuttering and confusing new changes and UI, then quit. "Maybe next patch will be better" I say. Well if the game is going to release like this I am going to be really sad. The FPS scene is stagnant and just waiting for a game to take over, but NS2 isn't better than NS1 in any way other than graphics, and if you can't get a decent frame rate then what do graphics even matter.
If you've got a problem with it, make a mod of it. You've had bloody long enough with the tools been available for years now...
EDIT: Would also like to mention that the devs have even stated this themselves. They're making the game they believe is what is best for the players and I trust them with that, otherwise why would have I brought their game?
We'll see how it all turns out, keep in mind NS1 took a long time to get right.
Honestly people complaining about performance etc. should not be posting in this thread. So far you have been playing an unfinished game and the performance will be fixed when it is released. It's a lot more important what you think about mechanics, how certain things work, if you like the options you have, the graphics. The obvious bugs have to be disregarded if you want to talk about NS2 vs NS1.
I was an ns1 competitive player and all I can say is I can't even play ns2. I bought it to support the team since I had years of fun with the first one but I do not see myself getting into the second one.
The physics just don't feel right to me. The alien comm shouldn't exist. Skulks in ns1 were amazing but now they feel slow and bulky. Gorges are toned down to a point were they lost that spark they use to have. I feel like ns2 is a demo or cheap Chinese knock off of ns1. I feel like the devs dug this huge whole adding all these new features that no one wants. They will feel like they will waste time removing them, so they instead waste more time and trying to fix them. I feel this addition was poorly planned and it shows with the ever wandering release date.
I always thought they should of just did what counter-strike source did and reboot the graphics and keep the same game. I definitely see these guys becoming successful and I wish them the best but I do not see many old players returning.
<!--quoteo(post=1958714:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:30 PM:name=Darkomicron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkomicron @ Aug 7 2012, 10:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly people complaining about performance etc. should not be posting in this thread. So far you have been playing an unfinished game and the performance will be fixed when it is released.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's fair to say a definitive conclusion about performance cannot be made until v1.0, but you can already see some lines in the sand with regards to how it is (aimed) to perform in comparison to NS1. The 30 tickrate for servers per example, is not very impressive, and likely servers won't be able to cope with 60 or 100 any time soon (or perhaps never at all). The FPS for clients has been thoroughly covered in this topic already, but it bears repeating that getting a higher FPS is almost not doable in NS2 (due to the CPU-bottleneck, which does not allow for any flexibility), which is unfortunate for competitive players who like to up their FPS by stripping away superfluous graphics. There has also been some talk about the inherent higher latency NS2 possesses when it comes to reaction-times on servers. These may all be nitpicks in the eyes of casual players, but for the vets of NS1 who have come to love how fast and tight it can be played online, it's disappointing. It also ruins the chances for it to become an eSport (though truth be told, not many games qualify for this).
<!--quoteo(post=1958743:date=Aug 7 2012, 04:35 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 7 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1958714:date=Aug 7 2012, 03:30 PM:name=Darkomicron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkomicron @ Aug 7 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Honestly people complaining about performance etc. should not be posting in this thread. So far you have been playing an unfinished game and the performance will be fixed when it is released. It's a lot more important what you think about mechanics, how certain things work, if you like the options you have, the graphics. The obvious bugs have to be disregarded if you want to talk about NS2 vs NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fair to say a definitive conclusion about performance cannot be made until v1.0, but you can already see some lines in the sand with regards to how it is (aimed) to perform in comparison to NS1. The 30 tickrate for servers per example, is not very impressive, and likely servers won't be able to cope with 60 or 100 any time soon (or perhaps never at all). The FPS for clients has been thoroughly covered in this topic already, but it bears repeating that getting a higher FPS is almost not doable in NS2 (due to the CPU-bottleneck, which does not allow for any flexibility), which is unfortunate for competitive players who like to up their FPS by stripping away superfluous graphics. There has also been some talk about the inherent higher latency NS2 possesses when it comes to reaction-times on servers. These may all be nitpicks in the eyes of casual players, but for the vets of NS1 who have come to love how fast and tight it can be played online, it's disappointing. It also ruins the chances for it to become an eSport (though truth be told, not many games qualify for this). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, I mostly complain about performance because it severely impairs my ability to gauge how powerful certain strategies and weapons are. The Shotgun could instagib an Onos, but if I can't hit an Onos reliably it doesn't matter. So complaining about balance and several mechanics doesn't make sense for me until I can reliably exercise my skill within the mechanics of the game.
Plus, it's a huge "fun" factor killer for me. Which is what the end-all metric for this entire discussion.
On the other hand, you're right, we can discuss other elements like power nodes, infestation, existence of the Khammander, and the like. But the performance even impairs the use of Drifters, ARCs, and MACs (I hardly use them due to poor pathing) and opinions on how the lighting works (if I can't reliably hit a Skulk in regular lighting, even worse in emergency lighting).
Been playing NS since v1.0. I've been in multiple clans for various leagues. The three biggest I was in were CAL, ANSL and ENSL. Was in the veteran program for v2.0 of NS1.
Anyways....I thought I'd actually have a lot to gripe about when I first started playing this game, and I only started playing it in b215; old computer couldn't handle more than 10 fps. With that said I do have a few things which could be improved into the game that would make it a tad bit better.
1. Carapace: This upgrade is far too powerful at the moment, I'm seeing skulks with 50 armor. 70 hp + 50 armor = 170 hp total? Correct me if im wrong. Just feels like im a level 1 marine fighting /xmenu combat skulks at level 20 with thickened skin. The upgrade is far too powerful at the moment.
2. Shotgun spread: The spread of the shotgun is too wide, I'm seeing only 50% of the pellets hitting at medium range, and even at short range it still takes 1-2 direct shots to kill a carapace skulk. And whipping a lerk out of the air with carapace is 2-4 shots. It's pretty insane when stuff is skipping across the screen when the servers are getting overloaded.
3. Rifle: Yes, i do have a complaint about this, but very minimal. It needs to hold more ammo. I find myself running out of ammo with this weapon in literally 30seconds to 1 minute every time I use it.
4. Alien tech pattern: I understand why the devs did this I just don't know what gave them the idea...The upgrade chambers. Why can't the upgrades like carapace, silence, regen, etc be unlocked or researched just from the main three chambers (the crag, the shade, and the other one forgot the name). You could drop as many as you want and put them anywhere in infestation and not have to worry about where your shell is to get an upgrade. It'll be on the crag for example. This is only to make commanding aliens less confusing and better placement of structures.
5. Shotgun cost: For what the weapon does at the moment, it's not worth 20 res. Feels like the gun just isn't packing enough punch. That's all.
6. Sentry turrets: This is a joke, you can spit on these things and they die. Waste of resources.
7. Land mines: If they are placed too close to eachother they blow themselves up. I don't know if it was meant to be this way or its just a glitch. An easy fix for this is to make the mine red so you can't place them too close to eachother or just get rid of them blowing eachother up.
8. I'm not sure if i like the openess of getting upgrades for aliens. If you have all 3 hives you could, in essence, get all 3 upgrades from 1 chamber. I'm neutral on this for now but I probably going to lean to say it needs to be 1 upgrade per chamber and that's it. Carapace/regen aliens are insane at the moment, especially higher life forms.
Everything else about the game I like, yes including power nodes. I like the teamwork that has to be used to coordinate attacks on some areas in the maps based soley on if the power node is up or down. Makes it more interesting. As far as it turning off essential marine equipment like infrantry portals...not too favorable in that aspect.
<!--quoteo(post=1958136:date=Aug 6 2012, 08:18 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 6 2012, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, there have been a handful of matters in which there WAS unanimity, and in those situations UWE just chooses to play deaf (take the free-hydra farce for example).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, no, and no. Please speak for yourself. There are quite a large number of people who dislike the free hydras, and they are VERY vocal about it, but that doesn't make it unanimous. I love the combat-engineer gorge. The best part about it is dying and finding yourself with more than 10 res. Be helpful to the team all early game, then you can go fade later!
Does it need to be tweaked? Big time. But it's a step in the right direction.
<!--quoteo(post=1958766:date=Aug 7 2012, 05:20 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 7 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 pages and no response from the dev's that is very poor PR in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I happen to know for a fact several of the devs have been reading this thread (forums tell you who is viewing, and I've caught one or two).
For my input - I played NS1 and I like NS2 as well. Kinda like any other sequel...different, the same, good, and some areas need improvement, but I enjoy playing a ton (except when I lose)!
<!--quoteo(post=1958501:date=Aug 7 2012, 06:29 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 7 2012, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately Flayra's analysis of NS1 failed pretty badly. The most defining feature in NS1 (and in NS2) is melee vs. range combat system and I believe Flayra haven't ever even mentioned this. It's not mention in The High Level Design Doc, which is nothing short from devastating. The whole combat system is based on this! If I would define combat skill for aliens, it would be: "To get close as possible to marines while taking minimum amount damage doing so". And there are three different ways to get close: ambushing, teamwork and movement (btw this also in L4D: the reason I play it). You had to combine at least two of those order to get close against decent marine/marines. The features like teleport blink, lerk spikes, taser, sprint contradicts this basic principle. This is the reason why every high level competitive player knew that teleport blink can't work. It's logical contradiction, you don't have to do empirical test for logical fallacies. I could write book about this topic and there are much more in which melee vs. range combat system effects. The point however is, that Flayra never understood melee vs. range aspect in his game, because he didn't play enough and almost every problem of NS2 can be track down to this.
By the way those two problems you listed (difficult learning curve, inability to balance resource system with playercount) weren't that big issues as Flayra makes them sound. But I let someone else to explain why it is so.
Even if I write without mercy I do hope NS2 will be great game and of course UWE has my eternal respect. That goes without saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958567:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:06 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 7 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two main categories of why I am unsatisfied with NS2:
<ul><li>The large amount of discarded lessons from NS1.</li><li>Many of the newly introduced features seem bloated and overly complex which I feel reduces my enjoyment of the game.</li></ul>
In many cases these two complaints bleed together.
My first point has been illustrated well by many in this thread already. Melee vs. ranged combat basics and NS1 mapping concepts seem to have been often overlooked. For example, I believe docking is visually impressive but many of the areas are just large cuboids with a couple of bottleneck entrances and very little actual architecture useful to gameplay. The supposed reduction in map complexity (i.e. getting rid of all the confusing little corridors) is a worthy goal to help out new players but it's a lesson already learnt by the competitive community a long long time ago in NS1. It was only the "fun" maps such as bast and agora that sort of just did what they wanted that really suffered from the endless corridor syndrome. I honestly find myself getting just as lost on the NS2 maps as I ever did on any of the half-decent NS1 maps.
My second point is to do with the way new features have been implemented. I'd like to state that I've never been opposed to new features or removal of old ones and have generally been very open to Alien Commander and no Bhop (for example), but it depends on what replaces them. One example is the unified res system, on the surface it seems like a good fix for player no. variance but... it falls short of creating particularly interesting choices. My point can best be illustrated with an analogy: the design differences between the more recent Command and Conquer games and StarCraft 2. C&C design was a seemingly "that's fun, put that in!" style of band-aid design fixes whereas the stated design goals of SC2 were to create as much diversity of gameplay using only variations in range, unit speed, rate of fire and damage. NS2 for me leans far more towards the C&C camp than the SC2 camp. That doesn't have to be a problem, but I just don't enjoy those style of games very much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> These posts really get to the heart of some of the biggest design flaws in ns2.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1958501:date=Aug 7 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 7 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most defining feature in NS1 (and in NS2) is melee vs. range combat system and I believe Flayra haven't ever even mentioned this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for the fact that he mentioned many many times on twitter how they were playing NS1 in the office to get the skulk vs marine gameplay feel similar for ns2....
<!--quoteo(post=1958766:date=Aug 8 2012, 12:20 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 pages and no response from the dev's that is very poor PR in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really? Last I checked PR was busy setting up booths and doing talks, hosting egames on their YT channel, Twitch, etc, maybe they avoid the forums because, well, I think Tweadle stated it correct,<b> "The forums are pisspot of terrible ideas all thrown into a bunch of repeating threads"</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1958766:date=Aug 7 2012, 04:20 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 7 2012, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 pages and no response from the dev's that is very poor PR in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In this day and age, a critical thread like this even staying open on an official forum is very lenient, let alone dev responses on the forum being common enough that they are expected in any major discussion. The last thing in the world that UWE is having trouble with is communicating with their playerbase sufficiently.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1958766:date=Aug 8 2012, 10:20 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 pages and no response from the dev's that is very poor PR in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just wonder what you actually expect the dev's to say which would make you feel happy?
He wants the Dev to say they know exactly how he feels and they're going to get in touch with him as soon as possible and setup a private meeting to get to fixing NS2 precisely the way he wants NS2 to become.
<!--quoteo(post=1958766:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:20 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 pages and no response from the dev's that is very poor PR in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty sure they are watching everything though after having the reply deleted on facebook kindly asking them if they could make it this summer 2012.
<!--quoteo(post=1958766:date=Aug 8 2012, 12:20 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 12:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 pages and no response from the dev's that is very poor PR in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, fine, I'll bite.
There is no response any of us can say that is going to change the minds of many of the people posting in this thread, who feel like NS2 is not as good of a game as NS1 was. And we certainly don't have the time to get into long point by point arguments related to a huge wide ranging amount of issues brought up in this 15 page thread, many of which we have already discussed, in depth at many different times over the course of the NS2 development cycle.
Yes, performance is not where we want or need it to be yet. Yes we understand it has a huge impact on the enjoyment of the game, and yes we are attacking the performance issues from all directions. And yes, while we admit we have a ways to go to improve it, I do think it is a bit unrealistic to be comparing performance in NS2 to NS1...a game which is over a decade old, on an engine that was even older.
We understand there is a lot of love for NS1, and many people have put countless hours of their lives into playing it and getting as good as they can at playing it, and they have gotten used to all the things about it that were not perfect. We love the first game we made, we know it got us where we are today, and we respect the love that many players have for it. But it was not perfect. For every person here who thinks it was amazing, there are probably at least twice as many who played it and were frustrated and confused and overwhelmed and didn't continue to play. We know that NS1 had plenty of areas that could be improved on, things we weren't ever completely happy with, and we wanted to take up the daunting challenge of creating a sequel that could respect what came before, but build on it and improve on it, and make it something new.
Of course there is disagreement between the developers and the hardcore NS1 community in regards to what we believe needed to be changed. Alien commander, obviously a huge controversial change, is one area where we have voiced our reasons why it was added, time and time again, but is often listed as one of the "worst" changes in NS2. We probably can't change people's minds on that who believe it was a mistake, all we can say is that we deeply believe it was the right and necessary change to make.
Perhaps it is these things which we are not going to change our minds on, that gives people the feeling that we don't listen to feedback. But, we are listening, we have made many changes based on feedback from our community, and will continue to do so, right up until release and after. We have to balance making a competitive game with an accessible game, we have to balance gameplay with visuals, balance the old school feel of NS1 with the modern games that people are used to these days. We have to make a game for people who loved NS1 and for people who have never heard of NS1. We try things and fail sometimes, and we know there is no way we can please everybody. We just have to keep making the game we believe in, the way we feel is best, and hope that enough players come along for the ride to show that risky, innovative game like this can be successful in this day and age.
And for anyone who isn't happy with the end result...well, you can always mod the crap out of it :P
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand there is a lot of love for NS1, and many people have put countless hours of their lives into playing it and getting as good as they can at playing it, and they have gotten used to all the things about it that were not perfect. We love the first game we made, we know it got us where we are today, and we respect the love that many players have for it. But it was not perfect. For every person here who thinks it was amazing, there are probably at least twice as many who played it and were frustrated and confused and overwhelmed and didn't continue to play. We know that NS1 had plenty of areas that could be improved on, things we weren't ever completely happy with, and we wanted to take up the daunting challenge of creating a sequel that could respect what came before, but build on it and improve on it, and make it something new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think marine bunny hopping was a big part of this, the few people who mastered it (mainly from cs1) such as myself, found an extreme advantage over basically anyone who tried to play the game legit. I know many people who were turned off NS1 because the marines could exploit the physics engine to literally move faster than skulks while shooting from behind. The NS1 hardcores held onto their advantage because that is what it was, an advantage that they had and most players didn't, with the added effect of boosting the skill cap potential into the sky. But they fail to see it from a new players perspective or even the perspective of 90% of the userbase who could not master it. It turns people off, it seems unfair and un-realistic, it breaks immersion and simply does not belong in the game. No god damn marine squad moves around by hopping in spinning circles, it is stupid and people need to let go of it.
On another note for the alien comm.
At first I hated the idea of an alien commander, I felt that the original style of pure gorge building was a staple of the alien race, but now after playing 100 or so hours of NS2 I can say that I like it and I consider it to be at least an acceptable replacement. My only real concern is that the skill cap for commanding, mainly in terms of alien commanding, is very low.
It feels like the alien comm really only does the basic things of what the comm is expected to do, there is virtually zero room for skill improvement, playing alien comm at its highest level is like playing SC2 at gold league, and marine comm at its highest level feels like sc2 at platinum.
NS2 would benefit from more player-based skill caps when it comes to commanding, somewhat for the marines but mainly for the aliens. I do realize that good alien comms go george and maintain defenses while they command, but doing that still seems like not enough, it is just so slow and void of strategic diversity than any real RTS would be.
<!--quoteo(post=1958935:date=Aug 7 2012, 11:26 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 7 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, and one more thing:
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yessss
thanks for responding cory
-just curious- any discussion of a balance group/team? I think having one would be hugely beneficial to the game - all of the balance changes are still made by charlie right? Having 1 person (esp one that has to juggle so much other game developer-y things I imagine) trying to tackle the balance issues with limited experience and feedback all by his lonesome just seems impractical/impossible.
The real commander skill isn't even about what they're doing in game. It's about actually commanding and leading your team. The true skill in commanding comes from aiming your team's strengths against your opponent's weaknesses.
It's easy to place cysts, go hive > cara > leap > RTs or go phase > jp > shotty. It's easy to drop medpacks and ammo. It's easy to do any given build order and all of the micro/macro mechanics are sub 50apm style play.
It's hard to balance that with your how team is attacking and how the game is flowing. It's hard to send the right people to the right areas. Do you have your pressure squad collapse and secure your 2nd cc? Or do you suicide in for their base RT. Do you fall back with both marines on a side to defend an RT, do both marines attack an alien RT, or do you split them 1-1? That's where good commanders make a difference. That's the skill in commanding in NS2.
Comments
I already ruined my chance but there are others out there that would work hard at something like this.
NS1 has a metagame when it comes to the official maps, the last few servers of NS1 are all vets, the coms are vets and know what to do, and people know the game inside and out.
NS2 is all new, there is no metagame, people are still learning, the game itself wont make it, the players will and that takes time and will always be changing until it becomes refined and perfect.
I hardly see any commanders use half the stuff they have.
MACs, Drifters, and ARCs still have painful pathing on many maps. so I don't use them. Becuase I should be spending my time elsewhere dropping other stuff.
I don't have time to walk my drifter to the front line. Because otherwise it tends to get stuck up a wall...
Major flaws with NS2:
- Alien Comm has to go. No fun, annoying, opposing asymmetry, and ruins gorges which worked perfectly in NS1
- Tech points need to go, as well as power nodes. They restrict freedom (no fun relocates) and generally don't serve any purpose besides being an extra layer of annoyance
- movement is just bad mostly. not skill-based, no learning curve, slow
- static defenses are bad. cut the whips and especially the hydras. and if the ridiculous free buildings are still in: Don't do that, it's blatantly obvious a bad idea on so many levels. Just make NS1 model: Aliens have Pres, marines Tres. Simple and beautiful
- While I can understand that ARC's seemed to be a good idea in the first place, it's now obvious they don't work. The fun NS1 fights around TF's upgrading, holding the siege positions etc were a huge aspect that's now gone.
- Chambers are too complicated. Why crag, shift etc? NS1's movement, sensory, defense were perfect names with clear functions. KISS!
- Performance. If this stays even remotely as it is now, this game is unplayable for most people and a borderline audacity to sell without a big warning sign. Promises are made all the time, but the actual performance increases from the first versions are tiny. No one expected great AND fast graphics with such a small team, so face reality
good stuff:
- infestation
- belly slide
- buying own gear works surprisingly well
So frankly NS2 does barely have any of the things that were fun in NS1, while adding almost nothing. Honestly this feels like Star Wars/George Lucas all over again. Got lucky with Ep4-6 / NS1, but absolutely crushing the successor.
The amount of mindblowingly bad design decisions during the beta were astonishing, despite a lot of die hard fans giving invaluable feedback (fana etc). This could all be fixed by just cutting all the bad crap, and scale down the graphics to a level that would run fine, but there is no indication that the game is heading in any good direction at all. I'll stick around for 1.0, but sadly feel that this is in a very grim state.
And what's with alle the "NS1 took years to become good"? Even if that would be true, this isn't good old Half-Life 1 mod times anymore. This game has to be good now, or at the very least at release. It'll die a sudden death otherwise<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post hits so many good points. Alien comm has been such a bad idea from the start. It ruins the point of the gorge and is never fun to play. I love starcraft so every time I play NS2 I jump into comm and it's miserable. It is clunky and there is nothing fun to do. Basically that last sentence sums up NS2 for me. It is clunky and there is nothing fun. NS1 is smooth and moving is satisfying. Nothing else matters in a FPS if the movement is bad. No matter how deep your game is it won't be fun if it's awkward to move and attack. The problem here is that the frame rate is bad and there are weird graphical stutters, the movement isn't as good as NS1 and you get stuck on stuff, but also there isn't even any more strategic depth to the game.
I got my entire counter-strike team of 9 people to buy this game because of my hype for it, and it's been quite a long time since then and we have yet to enjoy a game. We hop on every now and then, get frustrated as hell with the stuttering and confusing new changes and UI, then quit. "Maybe next patch will be better" I say. Well if the game is going to release like this I am going to be really sad. The FPS scene is stagnant and just waiting for a game to take over, but NS2 isn't better than NS1 in any way other than graphics, and if you can't get a decent frame rate then what do graphics even matter.
You've had bloody long enough with the tools been available for years now...
EDIT: Would also like to mention that the devs have even stated this themselves.
They're making the game they believe is what is best for the players and I trust them with that, otherwise why would have I brought their game?
We'll see how it all turns out, keep in mind NS1 took a long time to get right.
The physics just don't feel right to me. The alien comm shouldn't exist. Skulks in ns1 were amazing but now they feel slow and bulky. Gorges are toned down to a point were they lost that spark they use to have. I feel like ns2 is a demo or cheap Chinese knock off of ns1. I feel like the devs dug this huge whole adding all these new features that no one wants. They will feel like they will waste time removing them, so they instead waste more time and trying to fix them. I feel this addition was poorly planned and it shows with the ever wandering release date.
I always thought they should of just did what counter-strike source did and reboot the graphics and keep the same game. I definitely see these guys becoming successful and I wish them the best but I do not see many old players returning.
The game isn't nearly as bad or broken as people are making it out to be.
It's fair to say a definitive conclusion about performance cannot be made until v1.0, but you can already see some lines in the sand with regards to how it is (aimed) to perform in comparison to NS1. The 30 tickrate for servers per example, is not very impressive, and likely servers won't be able to cope with 60 or 100 any time soon (or perhaps never at all). The FPS for clients has been thoroughly covered in this topic already, but it bears repeating that getting a higher FPS is almost not doable in NS2 (due to the CPU-bottleneck, which does not allow for any flexibility), which is unfortunate for competitive players who like to up their FPS by stripping away superfluous graphics. There has also been some talk about the inherent higher latency NS2 possesses when it comes to reaction-times on servers. These may all be nitpicks in the eyes of casual players, but for the vets of NS1 who have come to love how fast and tight it can be played online, it's disappointing. It also ruins the chances for it to become an eSport (though truth be told, not many games qualify for this).
Honestly people complaining about performance etc. should not be posting in this thread. So far you have been playing an unfinished game and the performance will be fixed when it is released. It's a lot more important what you think about mechanics, how certain things work, if you like the options you have, the graphics. The obvious bugs have to be disregarded if you want to talk about NS2 vs NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fair to say a definitive conclusion about performance cannot be made until v1.0, but you can already see some lines in the sand with regards to how it is (aimed) to perform in comparison to NS1. The 30 tickrate for servers per example, is not very impressive, and likely servers won't be able to cope with 60 or 100 any time soon (or perhaps never at all). The FPS for clients has been thoroughly covered in this topic already, but it bears repeating that getting a higher FPS is almost not doable in NS2 (due to the CPU-bottleneck, which does not allow for any flexibility), which is unfortunate for competitive players who like to up their FPS by stripping away superfluous graphics. There has also been some talk about the inherent higher latency NS2 possesses when it comes to reaction-times on servers. These may all be nitpicks in the eyes of casual players, but for the vets of NS1 who have come to love how fast and tight it can be played online, it's disappointing. It also ruins the chances for it to become an eSport (though truth be told, not many games qualify for this).
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Furthermore, I mostly complain about performance because it severely impairs my ability to gauge how powerful certain strategies and weapons are. The Shotgun could instagib an Onos, but if I can't hit an Onos reliably it doesn't matter. So complaining about balance and several mechanics doesn't make sense for me until I can reliably exercise my skill within the mechanics of the game.
Plus, it's a huge "fun" factor killer for me. Which is what the end-all metric for this entire discussion.
On the other hand, you're right, we can discuss other elements like power nodes, infestation, existence of the Khammander, and the like. But the performance even impairs the use of Drifters, ARCs, and MACs (I hardly use them due to poor pathing) and opinions on how the lighting works (if I can't reliably hit a Skulk in regular lighting, even worse in emergency lighting).
Anyways....I thought I'd actually have a lot to gripe about when I first started playing this game, and I only started playing it in b215; old computer couldn't handle more than 10 fps.
With that said I do have a few things which could be improved into the game that would make it a tad bit better.
1. Carapace: This upgrade is far too powerful at the moment, I'm seeing skulks with 50 armor. 70 hp + 50 armor = 170 hp total? Correct me if im wrong. Just feels like im a level 1 marine fighting /xmenu combat skulks at level 20 with thickened skin. The upgrade is far too powerful at the moment.
2. Shotgun spread: The spread of the shotgun is too wide, I'm seeing only 50% of the pellets hitting at medium range, and even at short range it still takes 1-2 direct shots to kill a carapace skulk. And whipping a lerk out of the air with carapace is 2-4 shots. It's pretty insane when stuff is skipping across the screen when the servers are getting overloaded.
3. Rifle: Yes, i do have a complaint about this, but very minimal. It needs to hold more ammo. I find myself running out of ammo with this weapon in literally 30seconds to 1 minute every time I use it.
4. Alien tech pattern: I understand why the devs did this I just don't know what gave them the idea...The upgrade chambers. Why can't the upgrades like carapace, silence, regen, etc be unlocked or researched just from the main three chambers (the crag, the shade, and the other one forgot the name). You could drop as many as you want and put them anywhere in infestation and not have to worry about where your shell is to get an upgrade. It'll be on the crag for example. This is only to make commanding aliens less confusing and better placement of structures.
5. Shotgun cost: For what the weapon does at the moment, it's not worth 20 res. Feels like the gun just isn't packing enough punch. That's all.
6. Sentry turrets: This is a joke, you can spit on these things and they die. Waste of resources.
7. Land mines: If they are placed too close to eachother they blow themselves up. I don't know if it was meant to be this way or its just a glitch. An easy fix for this is to make the mine red so you can't place them too close to eachother or just get rid of them blowing eachother up.
8. I'm not sure if i like the openess of getting upgrades for aliens. If you have all 3 hives you could, in essence, get all 3 upgrades from 1 chamber. I'm neutral on this for now but I probably going to lean to say it needs to be 1 upgrade per chamber and that's it. Carapace/regen aliens are insane at the moment, especially higher life forms.
Everything else about the game I like, yes including power nodes. I like the teamwork that has to be used to coordinate attacks on some areas in the maps based soley on if the power node is up or down. Makes it more interesting. As far as it turning off essential marine equipment like infrantry portals...not too favorable in that aspect.
No, no, and no. Please speak for yourself. There are quite a large number of people who dislike the free hydras, and they are VERY vocal about it, but that doesn't make it unanimous. I love the combat-engineer gorge. The best part about it is dying and finding yourself with more than 10 res. Be helpful to the team all early game, then you can go fade later!
Does it need to be tweaked? Big time. But it's a step in the right direction.
Well, I happen to know for a fact several of the devs have been reading this thread (forums tell you who is viewing, and I've caught one or two).
By the way those two problems you listed (difficult learning curve, inability to balance resource system with playercount) weren't that big issues as Flayra makes them sound. But I let someone else to explain why it is so.
Even if I write without mercy I do hope NS2 will be great game and of course UWE has my eternal respect. That goes without saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958567:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:06 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 7 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two main categories of why I am unsatisfied with NS2:
<ul><li>The large amount of discarded lessons from NS1.</li><li>Many of the newly introduced features seem bloated and overly complex which I feel reduces my enjoyment of the game.</li></ul>
In many cases these two complaints bleed together.
My first point has been illustrated well by many in this thread already. Melee vs. ranged combat basics and NS1 mapping concepts seem to have been often overlooked. For example, I believe docking is visually impressive but many of the areas are just large cuboids with a couple of bottleneck entrances and very little actual architecture useful to gameplay. The supposed reduction in map complexity (i.e. getting rid of all the confusing little corridors) is a worthy goal to help out new players but it's a lesson already learnt by the competitive community a long long time ago in NS1. It was only the "fun" maps such as bast and agora that sort of just did what they wanted that really suffered from the endless corridor syndrome. I honestly find myself getting just as lost on the NS2 maps as I ever did on any of the half-decent NS1 maps.
My second point is to do with the way new features have been implemented. I'd like to state that I've never been opposed to new features or removal of old ones and have generally been very open to Alien Commander and no Bhop (for example), but it depends on what replaces them. One example is the unified res system, on the surface it seems like a good fix for player no. variance but... it falls short of creating particularly interesting choices. My point can best be illustrated with an analogy: the design differences between the more recent Command and Conquer games and StarCraft 2. C&C design was a seemingly "that's fun, put that in!" style of band-aid design fixes whereas the stated design goals of SC2 were to create as much diversity of gameplay using only variations in range, unit speed, rate of fire and damage. NS2 for me leans far more towards the C&C camp than the SC2 camp. That doesn't have to be a problem, but I just don't enjoy those style of games very much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These posts really get to the heart of some of the biggest design flaws in ns2.
Except for the fact that he mentioned many many times on twitter how they were playing NS1 in the office to get the skulk vs marine gameplay feel similar for ns2....
Oh really? Last I checked PR was busy setting up booths and doing talks, hosting egames on their YT channel, Twitch, etc, maybe they avoid the forums because, well, I think Tweadle stated it correct,<b> "The forums are pisspot of terrible ideas all thrown into a bunch of repeating threads"</b>
edit: grammar, I failed at it
In this day and age, a critical thread like this even staying open on an official forum is very lenient, let alone dev responses on the forum being common enough that they are expected in any major discussion. The last thing in the world that UWE is having trouble with is communicating with their playerbase sufficiently.
I'm just wonder what you actually expect the dev's to say which would make you feel happy?
Good luck, my friend :D
pretty sure they are watching everything though after having the reply deleted on facebook kindly asking them if they could make it this summer 2012.
Ok, fine, I'll bite.
There is no response any of us can say that is going to change the minds of many of the people posting in this thread, who feel like NS2 is not as good of a game as NS1 was. And we certainly don't have the time to get into long point by point arguments related to a huge wide ranging amount of issues brought up in this 15 page thread, many of which we have already discussed, in depth at many different times over the course of the NS2 development cycle.
Yes, performance is not where we want or need it to be yet. Yes we understand it has a huge impact on the enjoyment of the game, and yes we are attacking the performance issues from all directions. And yes, while we admit we have a ways to go to improve it, I do think it is a bit unrealistic to be comparing performance in NS2 to NS1...a game which is over a decade old, on an engine that was even older.
We understand there is a lot of love for NS1, and many people have put countless hours of their lives into playing it and getting as good as they can at playing it, and they have gotten used to all the things about it that were not perfect. We love the first game we made, we know it got us where we are today, and we respect the love that many players have for it. But it was not perfect. For every person here who thinks it was amazing, there are probably at least twice as many who played it and were frustrated and confused and overwhelmed and didn't continue to play. We know that NS1 had plenty of areas that could be improved on, things we weren't ever completely happy with, and we wanted to take up the daunting challenge of creating a sequel that could respect what came before, but build on it and improve on it, and make it something new.
Of course there is disagreement between the developers and the hardcore NS1 community in regards to what we believe needed to be changed. Alien commander, obviously a huge controversial change, is one area where we have voiced our reasons why it was added, time and time again, but is often listed as one of the "worst" changes in NS2. We probably can't change people's minds on that who believe it was a mistake, all we can say is that we deeply believe it was the right and necessary change to make.
Perhaps it is these things which we are not going to change our minds on, that gives people the feeling that we don't listen to feedback. But, we are listening, we have made many changes based on feedback from our community, and will continue to do so, right up until release and after. We have to balance making a competitive game with an accessible game, we have to balance gameplay with visuals, balance the old school feel of NS1 with the modern games that people are used to these days. We have to make a game for people who loved NS1 and for people who have never heard of NS1. We try things and fail sometimes, and we know there is no way we can please everybody. We just have to keep making the game we believe in, the way we feel is best, and hope that enough players come along for the ride to show that risky, innovative game like this can be successful in this day and age.
And for anyone who isn't happy with the end result...well, you can always mod the crap out of it :P
--Cory
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory
I think marine bunny hopping was a big part of this, the few people who mastered it (mainly from cs1) such as myself, found an extreme advantage over basically anyone who tried to play the game legit. I know many people who were turned off NS1 because the marines could exploit the physics engine to literally move faster than skulks while shooting from behind. The NS1 hardcores held onto their advantage because that is what it was, an advantage that they had and most players didn't, with the added effect of boosting the skill cap potential into the sky. But they fail to see it from a new players perspective or even the perspective of 90% of the userbase who could not master it. It turns people off, it seems unfair and un-realistic, it breaks immersion and simply does not belong in the game. No god damn marine squad moves around by hopping in spinning circles, it is stupid and people need to let go of it.
On another note for the alien comm.
At first I hated the idea of an alien commander, I felt that the original style of pure gorge building was a staple of the alien race, but now after playing 100 or so hours of NS2 I can say that I like it and I consider it to be at least an acceptable replacement. My only real concern is that the skill cap for commanding, mainly in terms of alien commanding, is very low.
It feels like the alien comm really only does the basic things of what the comm is expected to do, there is virtually zero room for skill improvement, playing alien comm at its highest level is like playing SC2 at gold league, and marine comm at its highest level feels like sc2 at platinum.
NS2 would benefit from more player-based skill caps when it comes to commanding, somewhat for the marines but mainly for the aliens. I do realize that good alien comms go george and maintain defenses while they command, but doing that still seems like not enough, it is just so slow and void of strategic diversity than any real RTS would be.
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yessss
thanks for responding cory
-just curious- any discussion of a balance group/team? I think having one would be hugely beneficial to the game - all of the balance changes are still made by charlie right? Having 1 person (esp one that has to juggle so much other game developer-y things I imagine) trying to tackle the balance issues with limited experience and feedback all by his lonesome just seems impractical/impossible.
It's easy to place cysts, go hive > cara > leap > RTs or go phase > jp > shotty. It's easy to drop medpacks and ammo. It's easy to do any given build order and all of the micro/macro mechanics are sub 50apm style play.
It's hard to balance that with your how team is attacking and how the game is flowing. It's hard to send the right people to the right areas. Do you have your pressure squad collapse and secure your 2nd cc? Or do you suicide in for their base RT. Do you fall back with both marines on a side to defend an RT, do both marines attack an alien RT, or do you split them 1-1? That's where good commanders make a difference. That's the skill in commanding in NS2.