<!--quoteo(post=1958940:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:35 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 7 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like the alien comm really only does the basic things of what the comm is expected to do, there is virtually zero room for skill improvement, playing alien comm at its highest level is like playing SC2 at gold league, and marine comm at its highest level feels like sc2 at platinum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually for what it's worth I think this quality of the alien comm keeps the two very asymmetrical (kham vs comm), because good alien comms are never in the command chair the entire time. Especially in organized games, it's very common to see alien comm constantly hopping out and moving across the map with conjunction to his team to participate in the game itself - whether that's gorging and helping out at main/second hive or just hopping out as skulk to help with pressure/rushes I think it is one aspect of the game that has yet to be explored in any kind of depth at this point.
I think the problem most ns1 players would have with that description of alien commander leadership is that he could do all that from outside the hive anyways as a gorge supporting people instead of sitting in a ball doing nothing particular.
I'm not sure that's really a positive reflection of alien commander having depth as it is a realization it is largely a minigame atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1958949:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:57 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 8 2012, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually for what it's worth I think this quality of the alien comm keeps the two very asymmetrical (kham vs comm), because good alien comms are never in the command chair the entire time. Especially in organized games, it's very common to see alien comm constantly hopping out and moving across the map with conjunction to his team to participate in the game itself - whether that's gorging and helping out at main/second hive or just hopping out as skulk to help with pressure/rushes I think it is one aspect of the game that has yet to be explored in any kind of depth at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958940:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:35 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 7 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think marine bunny hopping was a big part of this, the few people who mastered it (mainly from cs1) such as myself, found an extreme advantage over basically anyone who tried to play the game legit. I know many people who were turned off NS1 because the marines could exploit the physics engine to literally move faster than skulks while shooting from behind. The NS1 hardcores held onto their advantage because that is what it was, an advantage that they had and most players didn't, with the added effect of boosting the skill cap potential into the sky. But they fail to see it from a new players perspective or even the perspective of 90% of the userbase who could not master it. It turns people off, it seems unfair and un-realistic, it breaks immersion and simply does not belong in the game. No god damn marine squad moves around by hopping in spinning circles, it is stupid and people need to let go of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree. When I bhop in CS or someone else does, I almost never ever see anything negative, and almost always see people say "awesome! can you teach me?" etc. Sounds like an attitude issue. You can't really talk about immersion and things marine squads would or wouldn't do in a game thats completely fiction. You're talking aliens that can send themselves and others to other dimensions, and a marine jumping to gain speed is stupid?
As for Alien Comm, I like it. Need to do some laundry? Hop in kham. Need to type up a paper? Hop in kham. Need to play another game? Hop in kham!
People defending the move from old mechanics don't seem to understand the main gripes people have. People don't necessarily want all the old mechanics ported over (even if they say they do), they want the underlying value those mechanics had. For example, when people complain about movement they are complaining about how there is a relative lack of control on both aliens and marines in what is essentially a melee combat game. As it stands in that aspect the game is currently extremely dull in the most basic skulk vs. marine gameplay. Aliens jump up and down and spin like idiots, hoping their seizure-like animation throws off the marine jumping up and down in a stationary place long enough to kill them. The defense that this is for better accessability is total nonsense. The devs have no qualms over adding tons of structures and abilities and hidden sub-rulesets to these things on a whim in the name of fun, strategy, and balance, but are blind to the fact that these things complicate the game a ton while adding very little and often hurt the game. Meanwhile the FPS side of the game, which is first and foremost the main part of the game (even flayra agrees), remains entirely bland and unrewarding in the name of keeping things simple for accessibility.
This applies to many of the points throughout the thread. There is a general lack of understanding of what aspects of the game need work, and even when one is reached, the solutions are often useless or harmful.
There are many hardcore/competitive ns1 players that understand the direction the devs want to take for accessibility and are open to things like the removal of bunnyhopping and the addition of alien commander, but are put down as cranky vets unwilling for change when they disagree with changes because they have a better understanding of how the changes will affect the game than the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1958958:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:19 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Aug 8 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're talking aliens that can send themselves and others to other dimensions, and a marine jumping to gain speed is stupid?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are aliens, they are biologically based on fiction, we are talking about marines, squad members, human beings who are hopping around like a bunch of idiots doing spins and one legged hops to move around, it looks retarded and it is retarded.
Can't talk about immersion? Pretty much the entire point of porting NS1 to a better engine with better graphics/lighting/atmosphere is for the entire sake of immersion.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1958935:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, and one more thing:
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a terrible idea :( That just means becoming a full gorge now costs 19 res.
The first 3 Hydras need to be free! with the option of buying additional hydras, so that you can keep on building if your team is doing well.
<!--quoteo(post=1958935:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:26 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, and one more thing:
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome ! 3 pres seems like a reasonable cost, it should make killing hydras meaningful again without ruining the gorge financially.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Especially in organized games, it's very common to see alien comm constantly hopping out and moving across the map with conjunction to his team to participate in the game itself - whether that's gorging and helping out at main/second hive or just hopping out as skulk to help with pressure/rushes I think it is one aspect of the game that has yet to be explored in any kind of depth at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we've been playing without alien comm in many builds, basically anybody jumps in the hive and drop what is needed. If the alien comm has not more things to do it will probably end up to be the best strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1958949:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:57 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 7 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually for what it's worth I think this quality of the alien comm keeps the two very asymmetrical (kham vs comm), because good alien comms are never in the command chair the entire time. Especially in organized games, it's very common to see alien comm constantly hopping out and moving across the map with conjunction to his team to participate in the game itself - whether that's gorging and helping out at main/second hive or just hopping out as skulk to help with pressure/rushes I think it is one aspect of the game that has yet to be explored in any kind of depth at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It feels like the alien comm should be a special class that can contribute directly, a brand new evolution. As cliche as it is, a "Queen" class if you will. Not a battle class like a skulk, or even a support class like the Gorge(Well...probably closer to support. As long as it isn't simply a glorified Gorge), but some way of directly contributing. Hopping back and forth between environmental interaction and building. It would help players feel more engaged within the kham role, and also give a unique feeling to alien comm. Not simply being a random skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1957028:date=Aug 4 2012, 03:45 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 4 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>[1.]</b> Ignoring the performance issues are any old school players actually satisfied with NS2 has it lived up to your expectations? Are you pumped enough about the game to encourages others to buy it?
<b>[2.]</b>I am personally very unhappy with the game and if I knew this is what it was going to be like I probably would not have bought the game..
<b>[3.]</b>Majority of my grips are with the aliens there are some massive game play issues which are game breaking and then there are some things I find way less fun the NS1...
My gripes....
<b>[4.]</b>If an alien kills your base power node and you have no welders researched game over regardless of how far ahead u are so your entire existence is based on 1 research item and 1 structure u have no control over...
<b>[5.]</b>There is still no way to let aliens move between hives quickly like in NS1 with the teleporting feature, the attempt to fix this problem with celerity was a massive fail this forever will have a major negative impact on alien gameplay..
<b>[6.]</b>Aliens can become res locked if you manage to loose all your res nodes with less then 15 res its game over this wasn't the case in NS1 because of RFK and gorge building..
<b>[7.]</b>Power nodes powering buildings I find to be an extra level of management which isn't fun or interesting...
<b>[8.]</b>Gorge has nothing on his NS1 existence, he is only good at the start of the game and falls off hard. The limit of 3 hydra's really limits the ability for the gorge to lay down defence in spawn to stop ninja attacks and then push forward with his team...
<b>[9.]</b>Alien commander is is boring and tedious you feel like your strapped to a chair with a live grenade in your lap unlike the marine commander who's role actually feels like it belongs...
<b>[10.]</b>No relocation strategies and free base building for marines makes the gameplay feel stale.
<b>[11.]</b>So unfortunately NS2 for me is a disappointment, how do other NS1 players feel?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> [I add Numbers to make it clear.]
1. I feel very bad to reply to you, but i want to tell the developer (with FULL respect) how i feel about NS2 2. Not that unhappy, but to be honest, i stop playing, because i wait for the final balance, right now it's just crazy imba. For example i don't understand, why Onos is in, but no heavy armor (exoskelet) but jetpacks, wasn't the 'gorge webs' the counter to jetpacks? Or the Fade's acid? or the onos devour? and on. 3. Exactly, see 2. but some features i realy like, they put a lot efford into some effects and on (thats why i feel terrible to say all that, but im just being honest!) 4. Realy? I don't remind correct, but can't marines build a second command station for just 10 or 15 res? (okay your post is from april, so many points are not actual i guess ^^) 5. Yeah, after seeing Hugh's new gameplay video of 215, it's like its still a problem, marines can move through the entire map very quick (phase gate, jetpacks) but aliens (specialy onos, gorge, skulks) are so slow.´so a hive is already dead before you can say "im comming" 6. idk 7. power nodes are nice to have but to be honest, i guess its the most case why marines lose, but as aliens i do like it. 8. yes, agree, hydras are so useless, 1 marine kill all 3 hydras, i have no idea, but these offensive chambers in ns1 was way more helpful, in ns2 it feels like cannon fodder, 9. no idea, i don't play him much, always full ^^ 10. same for aliens, gorge limit to 3 hydras which are cannon fodder but rines got mobile powernode now. 11. i have mixed feelings, on one side, i want just a ns1 on the other side, new features. I think a lot of fans are not honest, because they respect (like i do) the developer, but its not helpful to lie. For me, ns2 is how it is now, not fun, it realy feels like work, instead of fun playing it. I at some points, you had a tactic in ns1. But in ns2, it feels so wrong, you can't realy counter, because with less abilitys, on both sides. So, i wait to final release in september/october and then try the game again, maybe its balanced better and the peformence is better.
<!--quoteo(post=1957617:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:21 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 5 2012, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe a more interesting view on the question:
How would have you done NS2 ? That would have been your plan in term of gameplay, graphics, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 100% honest? A 1:1 remake with adding new features later to test the balance better. There was a reason why people love ns1. I mean i can understand UWE, they want make it new and not just a remake (i guess i was charlie who said the game need 1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 i forget now :P), but there is a reason why people loved ns1. The balance wasn't 100% but you could always counter the enemys. I feel terrible saying all that but it is how i think about it. It was fun playing as alien in ns1, but in ns2 its such a work. Also i notice as marine commander its a problem to keep rts alive, aliens can kill them without a problem, you just can force your marines to go there. The problem with that, the player amount, mostly 8 players and 1-3 of them have to take care of resource tower, because it has no electric defence, its just terrible. On alien side, the gorge was the good boy, he build 2 hydras which keep a rt save for the time your team notice the "ressource tower is under attack". Now you can build up to 3 hydras, but marines kill that cannon fooder so quick, i don't know if they make the a.i. bad or the delay to much, but hydras are so useless compared to offensive chambers.
In this scene, you see very good what i mean at all, there just like 3 jetpack marines but alien's can do like nothing. Maybe its the peformence, maybe its the player skills but i think the bigest point are the abilitys. There are no webs, no effective hydras (they would be killed by the grenades in a sec), no fade with acid, no lerk spores (only that spores with a range of 1 meter per second instead of the big spore). <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Kw-w1DpbzYM#t=815s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...w1DpbzYM#t=815s</a>
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1958940:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:35 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 8 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think marine bunny hopping was a big part of this, the few people who mastered it (mainly from cs1) such as myself, found an extreme advantage over basically anyone who tried to play the game legit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine bunnyhopping was, for all intents and purposes, removed from NS1 with the 2.0 update in 2003. Nobody has wanted it back since and nobody wants to see it in NS2. When people are talking about movement skill in this thread, they're not talking about marine bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1959033:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 8 2012, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine bunnyhopping was, for all intents and purposes, removed from NS1 with the 2.0 update in 2003. Nobody has wanted it back since and nobody wants to see it in NS2. When people are talking about movement skill in this thread, they're not talking about marine bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine movement did have a fair amount of quirks to it after bunnyhopping was removed. Circle strafing always sped you up(as much as 30-50%); this effectively allowed you to do a quick ~quarter circle strafe and jump backwards at high speed. You could slide against walls or "wriggle walk" with the strafe keys to gain a fairly significant amount of speed and in slopes you could bunnyhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1958935:date=Aug 8 2012, 01:26 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, and one more thing:
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (<b>still a max of 3</b>)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back to ignoring gorge again till bile bomb.
Bandaid fix, yadda yadda, etc... etc...
{Edit:} I'm assuming they still commit suicide if you don't re-gorge which makes this even hilariously worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1959038:date=Aug 8 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Aug 8 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine movement did have a fair amount of quirks to it after bunnyhopping was removed. Circle strafing always sped you up(as much as 30-50%); this effectively allowed you to do a quick ~quarter circle strafe and jump backwards at high speed. You could slide against walls or "wriggle walk" with the strafe keys to gain a fairly significant amount of speed and in slopes you could bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and those quirks are why its actually fun to play as a marine. Not only in combat do you have a lot more options, but even simply going from a to b is much more fun when you can do something else to speed you up than keeping one key pressed. In combat you would do meaningful dodges/jumps to buy more shooting time before the skulk eats you. Now both the skulk and marine still keep jumping, but theres no control, its just a chaos and everyone running in circles to try randomly warp all over the place.
Yeah things like wigglewalk or wallstrafing arent obviously needed. Proper strafejumping and no-slowdown-when-jumping-to-higher-ground would be nice too. But yeah, most importantly the way marines handle right now is quite horrid. Strafing/moving even on ground still feels really bad. Jumping is very unreliable, sometimes you can jump on top of a box/whatever no problem, sometimes it just doesnt work at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1959015:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:56 PM:name=Nukoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nukoe @ Aug 8 2012, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like the alien comm should be a special class that can contribute directly, a brand new evolution. As cliche as it is, a "Queen" class if you will. Not a battle class like a skulk, or even a support class like the Gorge(Well...probably closer to support. As long as it isn't simply a glorified Gorge), but some way of directly contributing. Hopping back and forth between environmental interaction and building. It would help players feel more engaged within the kham role, and also give a unique feeling to alien comm. Not simply being a random skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a long-standing suggestion on this forum that only a gorge should be able to enter alien commander mode, possible whenever it is standing on infestation (can't find the thread, is there an advanced search feature for this forum somewhere?).
This would return the gorge to its' NS1 role of controlling team upgrades, and acknowledges that Khamm isn't a full-time role. It would maybe require some kind of infestation lump at the gorge-khammanders location with high hp - a bit like an impromptu bio comm chair.
This would not be very hard to mod in.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kabab)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many NS1 players are satisfied with NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS1 a lot during 1.03 and 1.04, including some low level competitive stuff. I grew away from it post 2.0.
How do I like NS2? Enough to play it more than any other game, and to keep playing it when I should probably be working on my own game. There isn't really anything else like it except NS1, and all the remaining NS1 servers are just bots or combat.
I agree with the reasoning behind most of the major NS1 to NS2 game design changes. I think they get more attention than is warranted due to the movement and performance problems making everyone grumpy.
I don't really agree with the technical decision to put all the gameplay code in lua - I don't think the potential payoff from modability is worth the problems it creates for the core game user experience. Even if performance improves, modders will be seriously limited in what they can do without dragging it back down again. IMO this is the core problem, and it is not fixable at this point.
There is no response any of us can say that is going to change the minds of many of the people posting in this thread, who feel like NS2 is not as good of a game as NS1 was. And we certainly don't have the time to get into long point by point arguments related to a huge wide ranging amount of issues brought up in this 15 page thread, many of which we have already discussed, in depth at many different times over the course of the NS2 development cycle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true there are a few major issues where the vast majority of the community has major concerns your customers.. Alien commander Gorges Power nodes Resource model
If these where pulled back closer in-line to what we had in NS1 the tone of the entire community would change for the better.. The ball is in your court on these issues but NS2 won't be the first game to fail because the developers didn't listen to the customers...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, performance is not where we want or need it to be yet. Yes we understand it has a huge impact on the enjoyment of the game, and yes we are attacking the performance issues from all directions. And yes, while we admit we have a ways to go to improve it, I do think it is a bit unrealistic to be comparing performance in NS2 to NS1...a game which is over a decade old, on an engine that was even older.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My thread specifically stated performances issues aside this is purely a discussion about game play that wonderful thing that kept people playing NS1 for the better part of a decade on a seriously obsolete engine/graphics...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand there is a lot of love for NS1, and many people have put countless hours of their lives into playing it and getting as good as they can at playing it, and they have gotten used to all the things about it that were not perfect. We love the first game we made, we know it got us where we are today, and we respect the love that many players have for it. But it was not perfect. For every person here who thinks it was amazing, there are probably at least twice as many who played it and were frustrated and confused and overwhelmed and didn't continue to play. We know that NS1 had plenty of areas that could be improved on, things we weren't ever completely happy with, and we wanted to take up the daunting challenge of creating a sequel that could respect what came before, but build on it and improve on it, and make it something new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 300,000 people played and loved NS1 that is 300,000 low hanging fruit fans you can extract $35 from or $10,500,000 if you had 300k active players right now how much more do you think this game would grow??? Currently the amount of people on servers is well a big worry... Instead of searching for this mystical customers that may not exist pay attention to ones that put all that money in your bank accounts and made the game possible...
NS1 you may think is complex but in reality its less complicated then League of Legend which has a massive casual and e-sport audience, please understand your own game and the market a bit better before getting carried away with these idea's...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course there is disagreement between the developers and the hardcore NS1 community in regards to what we believe needed to be changed. Alien commander, obviously a huge controversial change, is one area where we have voiced our reasons why it was added, time and time again, but is often listed as one of the "worst" changes in NS2. We probably can't change people's minds on that who believe it was a mistake, all we can say is that we deeply believe it was the right and necessary change to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your decision to make but don't come crying to us when we abandon you as customers...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps it is these things which we are not going to change our minds on, that gives people the feeling that we don't listen to feedback. But, we are listening, we have made many changes based on feedback from our community, and will continue to do so, right up until release and after. We have to balance making a competitive game with an accessible game, we have to balance gameplay with visuals, balance the old school feel of NS1 with the modern games that people are used to these days. We have to make a game for people who loved NS1 and for people who have never heard of NS1. We try things and fail sometimes, and we know there is no way we can please everybody. We just have to keep making the game we believe in, the way we feel is best, and hope that enough players come along for the ride to show that risky, innovative game like this can be successful in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 in the direction it is going will never be a successful competitive game I'm sorry to say it but the game mechanics and performance do not make this possible...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And for anyone who isn't happy with the end result...well, you can always mod the crap out of it :P
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Buy why should we mod it I paid $35 for natural selection 2 an evolution of ns1 what i have installed on my computer is not the product i expected when I gave you my $$$$
I'd more then happily fly to San Fran tomorrow from Aus paid out of my own pocket to sit down with Flayra and show him what is wrong....
<!--quoteo(post=1958935:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh, and one more thing:
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This change is so bad on so many levels it's this type of thing which makes me loose faith...
<!--quoteo(post=1959033:date=Aug 8 2012, 09:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 8 2012, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine bunnyhopping was, for all intents and purposes, removed from NS1 with the 2.0 update in 2003. Nobody has wanted it back since and nobody wants to see it in NS2. When people are talking about movement skill in this thread, they're not talking about marine bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok it was technically that wavy strafing technique but it was pretty much bunny hopping.
And I don't mind hydras costing 3 pres as long as they don't despawn when you stop playing gorge.
Thanks for the reply Cory. It made alot of sense to me (if not to others apparantly).
Hydra's costing res is an extremely good thing. People have gotten too used to being able to hold down entire portions of the map with just one gorge and winning games in an incredibly lazy fashion.
^ +1 to elodea. it's just ridiculous that 1 or 2 gorges can block off an entire portion of the map for a long-ish time while only sinking 10 pres into it. even if hydras only costed 1 res, it would be an improvement over free hydras.
It makes sense to attempt to ease certain parts of NS for NS2, NS1 was arguably one of the most difficult games to get into. The mechanics and movement was beyond pretty much any other game.. You cannot compare it to LoL or games of those type, where most of the skill is simply learning items/heros/skills.. Most of the game is pretty straightforward beyond that.
For NS2 I understand the reasoning behind the changes to Gorges/Alien Comm, and the resource system. While I think the Alien Commander can work I do think that it will never be as intensive as the marine commander comparitively. The Resource system I do see as a potential balance problem, but more to the point of my posts are the movement/mechanics of the game. I think that improving the base movement would benefit all classes, and make the game play smoother and more enjoyable. Alot of the mechanics that made NS1 difficult to learn are still present in NS2 in some form, sometimes even more complex (like fade shadowstep/blink/double jump). For me, those are the things I really wish to see improved, and by improving them I feel it would help all levels of play. PRES Hydras are a huge improvement to the gorge to prevent constant spam and give a real reason to try to kill them. As for other basic feedback:
Base movement for all classes, which has a huge impact on all the interactions for marine vs alien. Speed of second hive vs relative cost, vs high cost of getting upgrades early game. I think it would work better for slightly higher hive cost and cheaper upgrades, so that its a progression early game for aliens - 2-4 mins for upgrades, 5-8 for 2nd hive. No pres when dead creates major pres issues alien side early game, and really delays lerk/fade/onos. Fade movement systems are pretty confusing and hidden. IMO it would work better to have a further improved NS1 blink and possibly remove the others (or make shadowstep hive 2?) Onos movement in general, and charge slowdown should be removed IMO, and given a higher energy cost (could be made hive 2 ability then).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1959060:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:39 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This change is so bad on so many levels it's this type of thing which makes me loose faith...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What???
<!--quoteo(post=1959063:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:47 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 8 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok it was technically that wavy strafing technique but it was pretty much bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much bunny hopping? It's clear you don't even know what you're talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1959107:date=Aug 8 2012, 01:41 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 8 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He had proper points 17 pages ago, I would go read them instead of reading the last thing he wrote<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as I can tell, his posts are the kind that give NS1 veterans a bad name. This thread would've been better off without him.
At least there are still some sensible posts from people who know what they're talking about:
<!--quoteo(post=1959049:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:20 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 8 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah things like wigglewalk or wallstrafing arent obviously needed. Proper strafejumping and no-slowdown-when-jumping-to-higher-ground would be nice too. But yeah, most importantly the way marines handle right now is quite horrid. Strafing/moving even on ground still feels really bad. Jumping is very unreliable, sometimes you can jump on top of a box/whatever no problem, sometimes it just doesnt work at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup. What I wish UWE would do with NS2 movement:
Step 1: Emulate NS1 movement. Step 2: Remove the obnoxious parts (wigglewalking and wallstrafing for example). Step 3: Improve existing parts where possible (walljumping and alien bunnyhopping for example).
I would like to say that I think the current walljumping has turned out surprisingly well, although it still needs significant balancing tweaks (it is far too powerful in the hands of people who've learnt how to use it properly). If the NS2 walljumping was combined with properly implemented bunnyhopping (lowered learning curve, proper animations, and so forth), NS2 would be a significantly better game than NS1 in that regard. Unfortunately, what we have is a blanket removal of bunnyhopping even though walljumping is just as unintuitive and difficult to learn as bunnyhopping ever was.
I should also add that what I dislike about NS2 isn't any single issue, it is all the issues in combination. I wouldn't mind so much that the alien commander is a bit lacking and that arcs are less fun than sieges if we had good movement and no dysfunctional powernodes, for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1959115:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:08 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 8 2012, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The entire reason they made the limit 3 was because the trade off was they where free....
Then they realised oh this was a bad design decision so now you have to spend res on hydra's but we still have the limit of 3....
<!--quoteo(post=1959057:date=Aug 8 2012, 12:35 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not true there are a few major issues where the vast majority of the community has major concerns your customers.. Alien commander Gorges Power nodes Resource model<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ewww... please talk for yourself. There is no "vast majority" that disagrees. There is YOU who disagrees. And many others that have diverse other opinions. Stop thinking that you are knowing best for the game. You have paid 35$ to get into a beta of a game that was known to be changing allot. If you are not happy, it's your own fault. Man how many games have I bought, that were terrible. That was never a thing that I could change afterwards. I feel embarrassed reading your posts. Cory should have never answered. The time of the devs is better invested in developing, than in reading or answering in such useless threads like this one. Game design is a creative work. This thread does nothing than demoralizing. That is the last they need while trying to be creative.
There are countless other threads that actually have useful critic in them. This one is really only the piss-pot.
<!--quoteo(post=1959107:date=Aug 8 2012, 10:41 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 8 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He had proper points 17 pages ago, I would go read them instead of reading the last thing he wrote<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "last thing he wrote" made it clear he didn't understand a fairly straightforward statement by Cory. It doesn't really encourage anyone to read the rest.
Comments
Actually for what it's worth I think this quality of the alien comm keeps the two very asymmetrical (kham vs comm), because good alien comms are never in the command chair the entire time. Especially in organized games, it's very common to see alien comm constantly hopping out and moving across the map with conjunction to his team to participate in the game itself - whether that's gorging and helping out at main/second hive or just hopping out as skulk to help with pressure/rushes I think it is one aspect of the game that has yet to be explored in any kind of depth at this point.
I'm not sure that's really a positive reflection of alien commander having depth as it is a realization it is largely a minigame atm.
I literally talk about that in the next sentence.
Disagree. When I bhop in CS or someone else does, I almost never ever see anything negative, and almost always see people say "awesome! can you teach me?" etc. Sounds like an attitude issue. You can't really talk about immersion and things marine squads would or wouldn't do in a game thats completely fiction. You're talking aliens that can send themselves and others to other dimensions, and a marine jumping to gain speed is stupid?
As for Alien Comm, I like it. Need to do some laundry? Hop in kham. Need to type up a paper? Hop in kham. Need to play another game? Hop in kham!
This applies to many of the points throughout the thread. There is a general lack of understanding of what aspects of the game need work, and even when one is reached, the solutions are often useless or harmful.
There are many hardcore/competitive ns1 players that understand the direction the devs want to take for accessibility and are open to things like the removal of bunnyhopping and the addition of alien commander, but are put down as cranky vets unwilling for change when they disagree with changes because they have a better understanding of how the changes will affect the game than the developers.
They are aliens, they are biologically based on fiction, we are talking about marines, squad members, human beings who are hopping around like a bunch of idiots doing spins and one legged hops to move around, it looks retarded and it is retarded.
Can't talk about immersion? Pretty much the entire point of porting NS1 to a better engine with better graphics/lighting/atmosphere is for the entire sake of immersion.
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a terrible idea :(
That just means becoming a full gorge now costs 19 res.
The first 3 Hydras need to be free! with the option of buying additional hydras, so that you can keep on building if your team is doing well.
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome ! 3 pres seems like a reasonable cost, it should make killing hydras meaningful again without ruining the gorge financially.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Especially in organized games, it's very common to see alien comm constantly hopping out and moving across the map with conjunction to his team to participate in the game itself - whether that's gorging and helping out at main/second hive or just hopping out as skulk to help with pressure/rushes I think it is one aspect of the game that has yet to be explored in any kind of depth at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we've been playing without alien comm in many builds, basically anybody jumps in the hive and drop what is needed. If the alien comm has not more things to do it will probably end up to be the best strategy.
It feels like the alien comm should be a special class that can contribute directly, a brand new evolution. As cliche as it is, a "Queen" class if you will. Not a battle class like a skulk, or even a support class like the Gorge(Well...probably closer to support. As long as it isn't simply a glorified Gorge), but some way of directly contributing. Hopping back and forth between environmental interaction and building. It would help players feel more engaged within the kham role, and also give a unique feeling to alien comm. Not simply being a random skulk.
<b>[2.]</b>I am personally very unhappy with the game and if I knew this is what it was going to be like I probably would not have bought the game..
<b>[3.]</b>Majority of my grips are with the aliens there are some massive game play issues which are game breaking and then there are some things I find way less fun the NS1...
My gripes....
<b>[4.]</b>If an alien kills your base power node and you have no welders researched game over regardless of how far ahead u are so your entire existence is based on 1 research item and 1 structure u have no control over...
<b>[5.]</b>There is still no way to let aliens move between hives quickly like in NS1 with the teleporting feature, the attempt to fix this problem with celerity was a massive fail this forever will have a major negative impact on alien gameplay..
<b>[6.]</b>Aliens can become res locked if you manage to loose all your res nodes with less then 15 res its game over this wasn't the case in NS1 because of RFK and gorge building..
<b>[7.]</b>Power nodes powering buildings I find to be an extra level of management which isn't fun or interesting...
<b>[8.]</b>Gorge has nothing on his NS1 existence, he is only good at the start of the game and falls off hard. The limit of 3 hydra's really limits the ability for the gorge to lay down defence in spawn to stop ninja attacks and then push forward with his team...
<b>[9.]</b>Alien commander is is boring and tedious you feel like your strapped to a chair with a live grenade in your lap unlike the marine commander who's role actually feels like it belongs...
<b>[10.]</b>No relocation strategies and free base building for marines makes the gameplay feel stale.
<b>[11.]</b>So unfortunately NS2 for me is a disappointment, how do other NS1 players feel?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[I add Numbers to make it clear.]
1. I feel very bad to reply to you, but i want to tell the developer (with FULL respect) how i feel about NS2
2. Not that unhappy, but to be honest, i stop playing, because i wait for the final balance, right now it's just crazy imba.
For example i don't understand, why Onos is in, but no heavy armor (exoskelet) but jetpacks, wasn't the 'gorge webs' the counter to jetpacks? Or the Fade's acid? or the onos devour? and on.
3. Exactly, see 2. but some features i realy like, they put a lot efford into some effects and on (thats why i feel terrible to say all that, but im just being honest!)
4. Realy? I don't remind correct, but can't marines build a second command station for just 10 or 15 res? (okay your post is from april, so many points are not actual i guess ^^)
5. Yeah, after seeing Hugh's new gameplay video of 215, it's like its still a problem, marines can move through the entire map very quick (phase gate, jetpacks) but aliens (specialy onos, gorge, skulks) are so slow.´so a hive is already dead before you can say "im comming"
6. idk
7. power nodes are nice to have but to be honest, i guess its the most case why marines lose, but as aliens i do like it.
8. yes, agree, hydras are so useless, 1 marine kill all 3 hydras, i have no idea, but these offensive chambers in ns1 was way more helpful, in ns2 it feels like cannon fodder,
9. no idea, i don't play him much, always full ^^
10. same for aliens, gorge limit to 3 hydras which are cannon fodder but rines got mobile powernode now.
11. i have mixed feelings, on one side, i want just a ns1 on the other side, new features.
I think a lot of fans are not honest, because they respect (like i do) the developer, but its not helpful to lie.
For me, ns2 is how it is now, not fun, it realy feels like work, instead of fun playing it.
I at some points, you had a tactic in ns1.
But in ns2, it feels so wrong, you can't realy counter, because with less abilitys, on both sides.
So, i wait to final release in september/october and then try the game again, maybe its balanced better and the peformence is better.
<!--quoteo(post=1957617:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:21 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 5 2012, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe a more interesting view on the question:
How would have you done NS2 ? That would have been your plan in term of gameplay, graphics, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% honest?
A 1:1 remake with adding new features later to test the balance better.
There was a reason why people love ns1.
I mean i can understand UWE, they want make it new and not just a remake (i guess i was charlie who said the game need 1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 i forget now :P), but there is a reason why people loved ns1.
The balance wasn't 100% but you could always counter the enemys.
I feel terrible saying all that but it is how i think about it.
It was fun playing as alien in ns1, but in ns2 its such a work.
Also i notice as marine commander its a problem to keep rts alive, aliens can kill them without a problem, you just can force your marines to go there.
The problem with that, the player amount, mostly 8 players and 1-3 of them have to take care of resource tower, because it has no electric defence, its just terrible.
On alien side, the gorge was the good boy, he build 2 hydras which keep a rt save for the time your team notice the "ressource tower is under attack".
Now you can build up to 3 hydras, but marines kill that cannon fooder so quick, i don't know if they make the a.i. bad or the delay to much, but hydras are so useless compared to offensive chambers.
In this scene, you see very good what i mean at all, there just like 3 jetpack marines but alien's can do like nothing.
Maybe its the peformence, maybe its the player skills but i think the bigest point are the abilitys.
There are no webs, no effective hydras (they would be killed by the grenades in a sec), no fade with acid, no lerk spores (only that spores with a range of 1 meter per second instead of the big spore).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Kw-w1DpbzYM#t=815s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...w1DpbzYM#t=815s</a>
Marine bunnyhopping was, for all intents and purposes, removed from NS1 with the 2.0 update in 2003. Nobody has wanted it back since and nobody wants to see it in NS2. When people are talking about movement skill in this thread, they're not talking about marine bunnyhopping.
Marine movement did have a fair amount of quirks to it after bunnyhopping was removed. Circle strafing always sped you up(as much as 30-50%); this effectively allowed you to do a quick ~quarter circle strafe and jump backwards at high speed. You could slide against walls or "wriggle walk" with the strafe keys to gain a fairly significant amount of speed and in slopes you could bunnyhop.
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (<b>still a max of 3</b>)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back to ignoring gorge again till bile bomb.
Bandaid fix, yadda yadda, etc... etc...
{Edit:} I'm assuming they still commit suicide if you don't re-gorge which makes this even hilariously worse.
Yeah, and those quirks are why its actually fun to play as a marine. Not only in combat do you have a lot more options, but even simply going from a to b is much more fun when you can do something else to speed you up than keeping one key pressed. In combat you would do meaningful dodges/jumps to buy more shooting time before the skulk eats you. Now both the skulk and marine still keep jumping, but theres no control, its just a chaos and everyone running in circles to try randomly warp all over the place.
Well it would be nice to have basic things like jump, walk, and jump crouch before going into more advanced things.
There is a long-standing suggestion on this forum that only a gorge should be able to enter alien commander mode, possible whenever it is standing on infestation (can't find the thread, is there an advanced search feature for this forum somewhere?).
This would return the gorge to its' NS1 role of controlling team upgrades, and acknowledges that Khamm isn't a full-time role. It would maybe require some kind of infestation lump at the gorge-khammanders location with high hp - a bit like an impromptu bio comm chair.
This would not be very hard to mod in.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kabab)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many NS1 players are satisfied with NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS1 a lot during 1.03 and 1.04, including some low level competitive stuff. I grew away from it post 2.0.
How do I like NS2? Enough to play it more than any other game, and to keep playing it when I should probably be working on my own game. There isn't really anything else like it except NS1, and all the remaining NS1 servers are just bots or combat.
I agree with the reasoning behind most of the major NS1 to NS2 game design changes. I think they get more attention than is warranted due to the movement and performance problems making everyone grumpy.
I don't really agree with the technical decision to put all the gameplay code in lua - I don't think the potential payoff from modability is worth the problems it creates for the core game user experience. Even if performance improves, modders will be seriously limited in what they can do without dragging it back down again. IMO this is the core problem, and it is not fixable at this point.
There is no response any of us can say that is going to change the minds of many of the people posting in this thread, who feel like NS2 is not as good of a game as NS1 was. And we certainly don't have the time to get into long point by point arguments related to a huge wide ranging amount of issues brought up in this 15 page thread, many of which we have already discussed, in depth at many different times over the course of the NS2 development cycle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true there are a few major issues where the vast majority of the community has major concerns your customers..
Alien commander
Gorges
Power nodes
Resource model
If these where pulled back closer in-line to what we had in NS1 the tone of the entire community would change for the better.. The ball is in your court on these issues but NS2 won't be the first game to fail because the developers didn't listen to the customers...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, performance is not where we want or need it to be yet. Yes we understand it has a huge impact on the enjoyment of the game, and yes we are attacking the performance issues from all directions. And yes, while we admit we have a ways to go to improve it, I do think it is a bit unrealistic to be comparing performance in NS2 to NS1...a game which is over a decade old, on an engine that was even older.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thread specifically stated performances issues aside this is purely a discussion about game play that wonderful thing that kept people playing NS1 for the better part of a decade on a seriously obsolete engine/graphics...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand there is a lot of love for NS1, and many people have put countless hours of their lives into playing it and getting as good as they can at playing it, and they have gotten used to all the things about it that were not perfect. We love the first game we made, we know it got us where we are today, and we respect the love that many players have for it. But it was not perfect. For every person here who thinks it was amazing, there are probably at least twice as many who played it and were frustrated and confused and overwhelmed and didn't continue to play. We know that NS1 had plenty of areas that could be improved on, things we weren't ever completely happy with, and we wanted to take up the daunting challenge of creating a sequel that could respect what came before, but build on it and improve on it, and make it something new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
300,000 people played and loved NS1 that is 300,000 low hanging fruit fans you can extract $35 from or $10,500,000 if you had 300k active players right now how much more do you think this game would grow??? Currently the amount of people on servers is well a big worry... Instead of searching for this mystical customers that may not exist pay attention to ones that put all that money in your bank accounts and made the game possible...
NS1 you may think is complex but in reality its less complicated then League of Legend which has a massive casual and e-sport audience, please understand your own game and the market a bit better before getting carried away with these idea's...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course there is disagreement between the developers and the hardcore NS1 community in regards to what we believe needed to be changed. Alien commander, obviously a huge controversial change, is one area where we have voiced our reasons why it was added, time and time again, but is often listed as one of the "worst" changes in NS2. We probably can't change people's minds on that who believe it was a mistake, all we can say is that we deeply believe it was the right and necessary change to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your decision to make but don't come crying to us when we abandon you as customers...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps it is these things which we are not going to change our minds on, that gives people the feeling that we don't listen to feedback. But, we are listening, we have made many changes based on feedback from our community, and will continue to do so, right up until release and after. We have to balance making a competitive game with an accessible game, we have to balance gameplay with visuals, balance the old school feel of NS1 with the modern games that people are used to these days. We have to make a game for people who loved NS1 and for people who have never heard of NS1. We try things and fail sometimes, and we know there is no way we can please everybody. We just have to keep making the game we believe in, the way we feel is best, and hope that enough players come along for the ride to show that risky, innovative game like this can be successful in this day and age.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 in the direction it is going will never be a successful competitive game I'm sorry to say it but the game mechanics and performance do not make this possible...
<!--quoteo(post=1958934:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 8 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And for anyone who isn't happy with the end result...well, you can always mod the crap out of it :P
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Buy why should we mod it I paid $35 for natural selection 2 an evolution of ns1 what i have installed on my computer is not the product i expected when I gave you my $$$$
I'd more then happily fly to San Fran tomorrow from Aus paid out of my own pocket to sit down with Flayra and show him what is wrong....
Check in by flayra: #BALANCE Hydras now cost 3 pres to create (still a max of 3)
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This change is so bad on so many levels it's this type of thing which makes me loose faith...
Ok it was technically that wavy strafing technique but it was pretty much bunny hopping.
And I don't mind hydras costing 3 pres as long as they don't despawn when you stop playing gorge.
Hydra's costing res is an extremely good thing. People have gotten too used to being able to hold down entire portions of the map with just one gorge and winning games in an incredibly lazy fashion.
For NS2 I understand the reasoning behind the changes to Gorges/Alien Comm, and the resource system. While I think the Alien Commander can work I do think that it will never be as intensive as the marine commander comparitively. The Resource system I do see as a potential balance problem, but more to the point of my posts are the movement/mechanics of the game. I think that improving the base movement would benefit all classes, and make the game play smoother and more enjoyable. Alot of the mechanics that made NS1 difficult to learn are still present in NS2 in some form, sometimes even more complex (like fade shadowstep/blink/double jump). For me, those are the things I really wish to see improved, and by improving them I feel it would help all levels of play. PRES Hydras are a huge improvement to the gorge to prevent constant spam and give a real reason to try to kill them. As for other basic feedback:
Base movement for all classes, which has a huge impact on all the interactions for marine vs alien.
Speed of second hive vs relative cost, vs high cost of getting upgrades early game. I think it would work better for slightly higher hive cost and cheaper upgrades, so that its a progression early game for aliens - 2-4 mins for upgrades, 5-8 for 2nd hive.
No pres when dead creates major pres issues alien side early game, and really delays lerk/fade/onos.
Fade movement systems are pretty confusing and hidden. IMO it would work better to have a further improved NS1 blink and possibly remove the others (or make shadowstep hive 2?)
Onos movement in general, and charge slowdown should be removed IMO, and given a higher energy cost (could be made hive 2 ability then).
What???
<!--quoteo(post=1959063:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:47 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 8 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok it was technically that wavy strafing technique but it was pretty much bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much bunny hopping? It's clear you don't even know what you're talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1959107:date=Aug 8 2012, 01:41 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 8 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He had proper points 17 pages ago, I would go read them instead of reading the last thing he wrote<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I can tell, his posts are the kind that give NS1 veterans a bad name. This thread would've been better off without him.
At least there are still some sensible posts from people who know what they're talking about:
<!--quoteo(post=1959049:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:20 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 8 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah things like wigglewalk or wallstrafing arent obviously needed. Proper strafejumping and no-slowdown-when-jumping-to-higher-ground would be nice too. But yeah, most importantly the way marines handle right now is quite horrid. Strafing/moving even on ground still feels really bad. Jumping is very unreliable, sometimes you can jump on top of a box/whatever no problem, sometimes it just doesnt work at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup. What I wish UWE would do with NS2 movement:
Step 1: Emulate NS1 movement.
Step 2: Remove the obnoxious parts (wigglewalking and wallstrafing for example).
Step 3: Improve existing parts where possible (walljumping and alien bunnyhopping for example).
I would like to say that I think the current walljumping has turned out surprisingly well, although it still needs significant balancing tweaks (it is far too powerful in the hands of people who've learnt how to use it properly). If the NS2 walljumping was combined with properly implemented bunnyhopping (lowered learning curve, proper animations, and so forth), NS2 would be a significantly better game than NS1 in that regard. Unfortunately, what we have is a blanket removal of bunnyhopping even though walljumping is just as unintuitive and difficult to learn as bunnyhopping ever was.
I should also add that what I dislike about NS2 isn't any single issue, it is all the issues in combination. I wouldn't mind so much that the alien commander is a bit lacking and that arcs are less fun than sieges if we had good movement and no dysfunctional powernodes, for example.
The entire reason they made the limit 3 was because the trade off was they where free....
Then they realised oh this was a bad design decision so now you have to spend res on hydra's but we still have the limit of 3....
Alien commander
Gorges
Power nodes
Resource model<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ewww... please talk for yourself. There is no "vast majority" that disagrees. There is YOU who disagrees. And many others that have diverse other opinions. Stop thinking that you are knowing best for the game. You have paid 35$ to get into a beta of a game that was known to be changing allot. If you are not happy, it's your own fault. Man how many games have I bought, that were terrible. That was never a thing that I could change afterwards. I feel embarrassed reading your posts. Cory should have never answered. The time of the devs is better invested in developing, than in reading or answering in such useless threads like this one. Game design is a creative work. This thread does nothing than demoralizing. That is the last they need while trying to be creative.
There are countless other threads that actually have useful critic in them. This one is really only the piss-pot.
The "last thing he wrote" made it clear he didn't understand a fairly straightforward statement by Cory. It doesn't really encourage anyone to read the rest.
lets see...