<!--quoteo(post=1932831:date=May 2 2012, 06:33 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 2 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These things can be adjusted <b>easily</b>, and without the need for Pres... so where is the argument <i>for it</i> then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you're relying on future non-guaranteed events for your argments, you start to lose credibility. As the other guy said, if you're not convinced by now you'll never be convinced..
<!--quoteo(post=1932940:date=May 3 2012, 05:31 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ May 3 2012, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- I don't feel like my structures are even worth protecting when they cost 0 PRes, why risk dying staying around to heal them when I can just run back over once the marines are gone and re-drop them? I don't feel like i'm contributing anything because i'm not spending my PRes to help the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I don't feel strongly about either solution, but this made me go WTF. Is holding off the marine team (read: map control) of no value to you? ESPECIALLY if it's free?
You dont see the reason for hydras costing pres because you are blind too it since you only support the current model. If they cost pres and are permanent, someone that gorges and places their hydras would be investing in the static defense for a specific area. He would be unable to go lifeform as soon as the rest of his team because of this, and because his team is deciding to sacrifice that for extra defense. Having them cost nothing means he gorges for 10 pres and builds 3 free hydras, delaying a fade by 80 seconds maximum, with a more reasonable delay being 32 to 40 seconds. Having them cost pres again means that if the aliens choose to have that extra defense, they are actually sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time. It also means that if the marines kill the hydras then either the gorge needs to redrop them and further delay the lifeform, or that they remain dead.
Having them free simply allows people to gorge with no downside. Generally speaking you are not going to have a gorge late game, unless you are attempting to support a onos push but in all honestly another onos, lerk or fade is more effective then a gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1933032:date=May 3 2012, 04:54 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 3 2012, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't feel strongly about either solution, but this made me go WTF. Is holding off the marine team (read: map control) of no value to you? ESPECIALLY if it's free?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the current model the less you die as a gorge the sooner you can fade or onos because nothing costs PRes except the act of Gorging itself, and a Fade is way better at stopping marines moving through an area than 3 crappy hydras, so yes there is no need to commit to them when they cost no PRes because your alternative is better
<!--quoteo(post=1933033:date=May 3 2012, 08:56 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 3 2012, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont see the reason for hydras costing pres because you are blind too it since you only support the current model. If they cost pres and are permanent, someone that gorges and places their hydras would be investing in the static defense for a specific area. He would be unable to go lifeform as soon as the rest of his team because of this, and because his team is deciding to sacrifice that for extra defense. Having them cost nothing means he gorges for 10 pres and builds 3 free hydras, delaying a fade by 80 seconds maximum, with a more reasonable delay being 32 to 40 seconds. Having them cost pres again means that if the aliens choose to have that extra defense, they are actually sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time. It also means that if the marines kill the hydras then either the gorge needs to redrop them and further delay the lifeform, or that they remain dead.
Having them free simply allows people to gorge with no downside. Generally speaking you are not going to have a gorge late game, unless you are attempting to support a onos push but in all honestly another onos, lerk or fade is more effective then a gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the same time slapping a p.res cost onto Hydras in their current state is a bad thing. They are essentially the Gorge's only form of attack or defense and completely immovable at that.
The largest problem for the Gorge right now is immobility of the Hydras. This is the result of two things; the "front-line"-ish area moving up or away from where they have built up and the <b>mobile</b> siege unit, the ARC (the areas that Gorges typically invest their Hydras in are the first to get hit by ARCs and there's usually nothing that can be done).
<!--quoteo(post=1933110:date=May 3 2012, 09:04 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 3 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the same time slapping a p.res cost onto Hydras in their current state is a bad thing. They are essentially the Gorge's only form of attack or defense and completely immovable at that.
The largest problem for the Gorge right now is immobility of the Hydras. This is the result of two things; the "front-line"-ish area moving up or away from where they have built up and the <b>mobile</b> siege unit, the ARC (the areas that Gorges typically invest their Hydras in are the first to get hit by ARCs and there's usually nothing that can be done).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Immovable at that"
Hydra has always been immovable and Offensive Chambers for years before that, static defense is meant to be static. The Gorge also happens to have spit and heal spray, I honestly think what the Gorge needs is +1/2 Armor so that he is able hold his own against a Single marine. Spit is also particularly difficult to aim, a larger projectile would also be of benefit.
I don't want the Gorge to be super strong or anything, but 1 unupgraded LMG clip to kill a Gorge is a little ridiculous. And though Spit does a decent amount of damage it's too hard to hit a moving target (for me at least).
<!--quoteo(post=1933165:date=May 3 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 3 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Immovable at that"
Hydra has always been immovable and Offensive Chambers for years before that, static defense is meant to be static. The Gorge also happens to have spit and heal spray, I honestly think what the Gorge needs is +1/2 Armor so that he is able hold his own against a Single marine. Spit is also particularly difficult to aim, a larger projectile would also be of benefit.
I don't want the Gorge to be super strong or anything, but 1 unupgraded LMG clip to kill a Gorge is a little ridiculous. And though Spit does a decent amount of damage it's too hard to hit a moving target (for me at least).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure Offense Chambers were immobile, but at the same time Siege Turrets took time to upgrade the factory and then build so in the end the Alien team typically had time to get there and launch a counter-attack. In NS2 however with ARCs being mobile it's far easier for Marines to take down something like a Hydra. Especially true when, as I said, Gorges typically try to fortify positions that are near the front-lines to provide their teammates an area of respite and these positions are the ones that are hit first.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932940:date=May 2 2012, 08:31 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ May 2 2012, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like if you can't even see it for yourself then no amount of explaination from me will enlighten you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on guys.. saying "If you cant see it for yourself then no amount of explanation from me" and "you are blind" are cop outs to lack of a logical argument. If you cant explain your points/argument then that's one thing, just say so, but saying things like i'm blind after you can't come up with a rebuttal to my counter argument is... non constructive to the discussion at best.
Moving on.. @paradoxum:
<ul><li>Staying around to heal your hydras helps keep the marines back, obviously leaving them makes them easier to die - making a longer cooldown between dead hydras ontop of the already existing slow maturing that everything alien does, will make you want to protect them more because a 2nd farm may take too long / too much risk. Not only is this example again situationally dependent and can occur without Pres (ppl barely valued hydras before anyways, i got the forums to back that one up??) <b>Therefore this isnt a reason to use Pres.</b> (Besides the obvious question of "so does free shadow step and free parasite mean you value those abilities less?")</li><li>Hardcaps are not dependent on whether hydras cost Pres or not.<i> I actually agree with you </i>that they should scale somehow, and man is it a pain in the butt to go track down your old hydra across the map! Does not gel.. But this doesnt invalidate the previous sentence, still nothing to do with them costing Pres here as hardcaps can be implemented with or without that requirement.</li><li>Hardcaps are "limits"? I dont get your distinction here? You need to stay alive if you want to protect them <b>should they come under fire.</b> This exists for all life forms, structures, and actions in the game - your PG does not heal itself.</li><li>I will agree that minicysts need to be converted to typical cysts after time. But this again has nothing to do with them costing Pres.</li></ul>
@Jayaris: <ul><li>Disagree, buddy, UWE has more than once publicly stated that the focus on balance will occur after we are feature complete, before then supposedly we address major imbalances here and there when we can. Making an assumption that balance will occur is not a stretch, almost nothing that has ever been implemented in this game was ever done or balanced in one pass..</li><li> But even without having to tell the future, the fact that a simple <u>number change</u> invalidates your argument for a need of Pres cost is just another example of the lack of reason why we need it.</li></ul>
@xDragon: <ul><li>I dont <b>only </b>support the current model, i just see the problems with it (initial pres skipping the early game and forcing permagorge) and i see much better ways to go about it, if someone can provide a valid argument of why not i am all ears - <i>so far everything has been countered.</li><li> </i>Permanent or "static" hydras are not a feature or byproduct of costing pres, they had planned and had publicly announced long ago that they wanted to allow the gorge to recycle his hydras for repositioning - this was long before a free gorge was ever considered.</li><li> Why should he not be allowed to evolve like the rest of his team? Is he not contributing like a skulk who does not evolve until onos? Is that skulk more effective suicide rushing base than the gorge who is speeding up build times, spreading infestation, blocking paths, setting up protective hydras, and healing the frontlines?? Cuz ok.. if that gorge does not make as much an impact as that quick to die skulk then i could see your argument for the gorge not being allowed to accrue Pres at the same rate as his friends, but not only do i think this is not the case - but you can also tamper how he accrues his Pres <b>WITH OR WITHOUT</b> hydras costing pres, once again! (i dont support this though because it locks him into permagorge again) </li><li><i>" Having them cost pres again means that if the aliens choose to have that extra defense, they are actually sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time."</i></li><li>Watch this: Having them <b><u>not </u></b>cost pres means that if aliens choose to have that extra defense (hydras) they are actually sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time. <u>See how it still holds true?</u> <i>Going gorge to get that defense means you are sacrificing a potential onos, fade, or lerk on the front lines. </i></li><li> "No downside" is not true considering you JUST said that you are sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time?? <b>So if your gorge isnt needed late game - why do you want a system that will force the gorge to stay as a gorge late game</b> - this is no fun for the player. Not costing Pres opens up options to him to leave the gorge! (but at a tradeoff as mentioned, so he better be sure hes not needed!)</li><li>Its almost as if you are arguing FOR the removal of Pres but you don't notice it.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1933182:date=May 3 2012, 12:37 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come on guys.. saying "If you cant see it for yourself then no amount of explanation from me" and "you are blind" are cop outs to lack of a logical argument. If you cant explain your points/argument then that's one thing, just say so, but saying things like i'm blind after you can't come up with a rebuttal to my counter argument is... non constructive to the discussion at best.
So..still no valid reason.... :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've taken a position that can't be argued against.
Likewise, if it currently used PRes and you were trying to argue it shouldn't I could repeat your same arguments verbatim as to why it doesn't need to change.
"It can stay using PRes and UWE will balance it." "There's no reason it can't be balanced using PRes"
Making the whole point of arguing against you pointless, because you aren't arguing that it isn't flawed you're arguing that it's theoretically possible for it not to be flawed.
How is staying gorge with the free hydras sacrificing a lifeform? Sure maybe if he stays gorge the entire game, but if he just sits around on his hydra pile then fades once he has the res nothing was delayed except by the initial 10 pres. That point is completely invalid. Regarding having them cost pres but delay the lifeform that is a choice that they make, and if made should be viable.
The point of the gorge being useless late game is a completely different problem IMO.
At this point i dont really care much anymore you fail to see any points I or others make its not worth my time.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933185:date=May 3 2012, 11:44 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 3 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"It can stay using PRes and UWE will balance it." "There's no reason it can't be balanced using PRes"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. And considering it's downsides as i mentioned, i see less of a reason to use it. <i>"Making the whole point of arguing against you pointless, because you aren't arguing that it isn't flawed you're arguing that it's theoretically possible for it not to be flawed."</i> If you can give me a theoretical way to solve the problems that i listed that came with costing Pres, <i><b>then you have achieved my challenge of providing a valid argument for costing Pres.</b> </i>
@xDragon: <i>"How is staying gorge with the free hydras sacrificing a lifeform?"</i> As we both said, a fade is more effective, so you are sacrificing your ability to be that effective lifeform for speeding up build times, spreading infestation, blocking paths, setting up protective hydras, and healing the frontlines. <i>"but if he just sits around on his hydra pile then fades once he has the res nothing was delayed except by the initial 10 pres"</i> A skulk can do this with spending ZERO res... :)
Man, i have seen your points, and i have effectively countered them with rebuttals - bullet point by bullet point. I apologize if you are upset but i have merely engaged in a logical discussion, no hard feelings. Your time is your own to spend, i am merely here to discuss. My challenge remains, however.
<!--quoteo(post=1933190:date=May 3 2012, 12:51 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. And considering it's downsides as i mentioned, i see less of a reason to use it. <i>"Making the whole point of arguing against you pointless, because you aren't arguing that it isn't flawed you're arguing that it's theoretically possible for it not to be flawed."</i> If you can give me a theoretical way to solve the problems that i listed that came with costing Pres, <i><b>then you have achieved my challenge of providing a valid argument for costing Pres.</b> </i>
@xDragon: <i>"How is staying gorge with the free hydras sacrificing a lifeform?"</i> As we both said, a fade is more effective, so you are sacrificing your ability to be that effective lifeform for speeding up build times, spreading infestation, blocking paths, setting up protective hydras, and healing the frontlines. <i>"but if he just sits around on his hydra pile then fades once he has the res nothing was delayed except by the initial 10 pres"</i> A skulk can do this with spending ZERO res... :)
Man, i have seen your points, and i have effectively countered them with rebuttals - bullet point by bullet point. I apologize if you are upset but i have merely engaged in a logical discussion, no hard feelings. Your time is your own to spend, i am merely here to discuss. My challenge remains, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cmon ironhorse, I pointed it out to you several times, you just ignore it
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ironhorse, you kind of ignored my big post in regards to why p.res cost is needed on hydras, certainly from a balance perspective.
Unless you can come up with a way to have free structures, without the price of gorge being 'off' at 10 p.res, it's impossible for you to argue the current mechanic is better for gameplay.
I reiterate: - Gorges are no doubt too cheap at 10 p.res given that you now also pay for the 'free' buildings that come with the lifeform - If gorges were more expensive, you would have no need for structures disappearing when the gorge is gone, since you actually PAID a proper price for the gorge hydras (for example 20 instead of 10 p.res for the gorges. It's no different than a marine getting mines with 15 p.res, they stay around even if he dies.) - Raising the cost of the gorge, as is necessary to maintain balance, is undesirable however, given the constraints of the res model (disabling you from using starting p.res as a mechanic to prolong early game) and the impact such a hike would have on player flexibility. (It's like marines no longer being able to buy welders and mines seperately, instead they have to buy them in a package at 20 p.res, but what if you want to just weld something? What if you just want to go gorge real quick to heal the hive? At 20 p.res for example that would be a crazy price to pay for just the healing aspect. Loss of flexibility.)
It's incredibly clear to me that gorges at 10 p.res are essentially broken, and it's clear to UWE as well. But instead of fixing it properly (Either p.res cost or higher gorge cost, the former being much more desirable) they've decided to throw another flawed and confusing mechanic into the game.
Tell me UWE, what is the difference between someone going gorge to drop 3 hydras and someone dropping 3 mines? Other than their respective costs? How can we have one but not the other? Raising the gorge cost would solve this dilemma, but it would come at the heavy price of loss of player flexibility. Only a seperate cost on hydras and the gorge properly solves the issue.
Nothing is ever free in terms of balance, either the hydras need to be reflected in the base gorge price or they need to receive a separate price once again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
didn't ignore it , i just didn't see it on the other forum since this was the "original" free gorge forum. I cant be everywhere on these forums! :-P I replied too, and so have you since then. <b>Well done, again.</b>
But i think we have a solution now, for all those to see: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118255&view=findpost&p=1933232" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1933232</a>
edit: @ Jay: Yea no prob, 1) costing pres means gorge needs pres to spend initially since he is needed initially, this makes the starting Pres for all aliens too high, and thus skips the early game, allowing lerks to evolve in an average of 2 minutes and fades in 5. There is no other reason to have initial pres so high (25) 2) forcing those who choose gorge to stay as a gorge for the entirety of the game if they are to have an impact. Spending Pres to be an effective gorge means you cant ever step out of his role to go fade for example because lets face it- if you had 50 pres as a gorge you weren't doing enough! This way gives the choice - tradeoff to not be locked in, like every other class. 3) theres one more but i cant think of it.. will edit.
<!--quoteo(post=1933259:date=May 3 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea this double thread on the same issue thing is kind of annoying, can we just let one die please?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Screw you Xarius, I'ma copy all your ideas onto my thread and then we let your thread die.
<!--quoteo(post=1933248:date=May 3 2012, 06:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) costing pres means gorge needs pres to spend initially since he is needed initially, this makes the starting Pres for all aliens too high, and thus skips the early game, allowing lerks to evolve in an average of 2 minutes and fades in 5. There is no other reason to have initial pres so high (25)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I've said before, the timings on the higher lifeforms are fine. 6:12 is usually the lowest time you'll see the Alien team reach 50 p.res, and depending on how aggressive the Marines have been against the new weakened RTs, it can easily be delayed over 7 minutes and sometimes up to 8 minutes (especially if the Marines took out 1-2 RT at the start). The problem, as always, lies in the quantity of the higher lifeforms; a problem which is a direct result of the upgrade chamber/RT/Hive resource sink being removed from the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1933248:date=May 3 2012, 06:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) forcing those who choose gorge to stay as a gorge for the entirety of the game if they are to have an impact. Spending Pres to be an effective gorge means you cant ever step out of his role to go fade for example because lets face it- if you had 50 pres as a gorge you weren't doing enough! This way gives the choice - tradeoff to not be locked in, like every other class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, if you were to make a p.res investment in Gorge you would want to stay Gorge for the entire game, but then again Gorge is a whole different beast and this is to be expected. It's absolutely fine if this happens on the condition that Hydra mechanics are changed (lowered price, ability to move/refund, limit removed) because it would provide the potential to invest in a very strong area of denial and forward base of operations. But again, that's only given the condition of Hydra mechanical changes.
Comments
When you're relying on future non-guaranteed events for your argments, you start to lose credibility. As the other guy said, if you're not convinced by now you'll never be convinced..
Personally I don't feel strongly about either solution, but this made me go WTF. Is holding off the marine team (read: map control) of no value to you? ESPECIALLY if it's free?
Having them free simply allows people to gorge with no downside. Generally speaking you are not going to have a gorge late game, unless you are attempting to support a onos push but in all honestly another onos, lerk or fade is more effective then a gorge.
With the current model the less you die as a gorge the sooner you can fade or onos because nothing costs PRes except the act of Gorging itself, and a Fade is way better at stopping marines moving through an area than 3 crappy hydras, so yes there is no need to commit to them when they cost no PRes because your alternative is better
Having them free simply allows people to gorge with no downside. Generally speaking you are not going to have a gorge late game, unless you are attempting to support a onos push but in all honestly another onos, lerk or fade is more effective then a gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the same time slapping a p.res cost onto Hydras in their current state is a bad thing. They are essentially the Gorge's only form of attack or defense and completely immovable at that.
The largest problem for the Gorge right now is immobility of the Hydras. This is the result of two things; the "front-line"-ish area moving up or away from where they have built up and the <b>mobile</b> siege unit, the ARC (the areas that Gorges typically invest their Hydras in are the first to get hit by ARCs and there's usually nothing that can be done).
The largest problem for the Gorge right now is immobility of the Hydras. This is the result of two things; the "front-line"-ish area moving up or away from where they have built up and the <b>mobile</b> siege unit, the ARC (the areas that Gorges typically invest their Hydras in are the first to get hit by ARCs and there's usually nothing that can be done).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Immovable at that"
Hydra has always been immovable and Offensive Chambers for years before that, static defense is meant to be static. The Gorge also happens to have spit and heal spray, I honestly think what the Gorge needs is +1/2 Armor so that he is able hold his own against a Single marine. Spit is also particularly difficult to aim, a larger projectile would also be of benefit.
I don't want the Gorge to be super strong or anything, but 1 unupgraded LMG clip to kill a Gorge is a little ridiculous. And though Spit does a decent amount of damage it's too hard to hit a moving target (for me at least).
Hydra has always been immovable and Offensive Chambers for years before that, static defense is meant to be static. The Gorge also happens to have spit and heal spray, I honestly think what the Gorge needs is +1/2 Armor so that he is able hold his own against a Single marine. Spit is also particularly difficult to aim, a larger projectile would also be of benefit.
I don't want the Gorge to be super strong or anything, but 1 unupgraded LMG clip to kill a Gorge is a little ridiculous. And though Spit does a decent amount of damage it's too hard to hit a moving target (for me at least).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure Offense Chambers were immobile, but at the same time Siege Turrets took time to upgrade the factory and then build so in the end the Alien team typically had time to get there and launch a counter-attack. In NS2 however with ARCs being mobile it's far easier for Marines to take down something like a Hydra. Especially true when, as I said, Gorges typically try to fortify positions that are near the front-lines to provide their teammates an area of respite and these positions are the ones that are hit first.
Come on guys.. saying "If you cant see it for yourself then no amount of explanation from me" and "you are blind" are cop outs to lack of a logical argument. If you cant explain your points/argument then that's one thing, just say so, but saying things like i'm blind after you can't come up with a rebuttal to my counter argument is... non constructive to the discussion at best.
Moving on..
@paradoxum:
<ul><li>Staying around to heal your hydras helps keep the marines back, obviously leaving them makes them easier to die - making a longer cooldown between dead hydras ontop of the already existing slow maturing that everything alien does, will make you want to protect them more because a 2nd farm may take too long / too much risk. Not only is this example again situationally dependent and can occur without Pres (ppl barely valued hydras before anyways, i got the forums to back that one up??) <b>Therefore this isnt a reason to use Pres.</b> (Besides the obvious question of "so does free shadow step and free parasite mean you value those abilities less?")</li><li>Hardcaps are not dependent on whether hydras cost Pres or not.<i> I actually agree with you </i>that they should scale somehow, and man is it a pain in the butt to go track down your old hydra across the map! Does not gel.. But this doesnt invalidate the previous sentence, still nothing to do with them costing Pres here as hardcaps can be implemented with or without that requirement.</li><li>Hardcaps are "limits"? I dont get your distinction here? You need to stay alive if you want to protect them <b>should they come under fire.</b> This exists for all life forms, structures, and actions in the game - your PG does not heal itself.</li><li>I will agree that minicysts need to be converted to typical cysts after time. But this again has nothing to do with them costing Pres.</li></ul>
@Jayaris:
<ul><li>Disagree, buddy, UWE has more than once publicly stated that the focus on balance will occur after we are feature complete, before then supposedly we address major imbalances here and there when we can. Making an assumption that balance will occur is not a stretch, almost nothing that has ever been implemented in this game was ever done or balanced in one pass..</li><li> But even without having to tell the future, the fact that a simple <u>number change</u> invalidates your argument for a need of Pres cost is just another example of the lack of reason why we need it.</li></ul>
@xDragon: <ul><li>I dont <b>only </b>support the current model, i just see the problems with it (initial pres skipping the early game and forcing permagorge) and i see much better ways to go about it, if someone can provide a valid argument of why not i am all ears - <i>so far everything has been countered.</li><li> </i>Permanent or "static" hydras are not a feature or byproduct of costing pres, they had planned and had publicly announced long ago that they wanted to allow the gorge to recycle his hydras for repositioning - this was long before a free gorge was ever considered.</li><li> Why should he not be allowed to evolve like the rest of his team? Is he not contributing like a skulk who does not evolve until onos? Is that skulk more effective suicide rushing base than the gorge who is speeding up build times, spreading infestation, blocking paths, setting up protective hydras, and healing the frontlines?? Cuz ok.. if that gorge does not make as much an impact as that quick to die skulk then i could see your argument for the gorge not being allowed to accrue Pres at the same rate as his friends, but not only do i think this is not the case - but you can also tamper how he accrues his Pres <b>WITH OR WITHOUT</b> hydras costing pres, once again! (i dont support this though because it locks him into permagorge again) </li><li><i>" Having them cost pres again means that if the aliens choose to have that extra defense, they are actually sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time."</i></li><li>Watch this: Having them <b><u>not </u></b>cost pres means that if aliens choose to have that extra defense (hydras) they are actually sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time. <u>See how it still holds true?</u> <i>Going gorge to get that defense means you are sacrificing a potential onos, fade, or lerk on the front lines. </i></li><li> "No downside" is not true considering you JUST said that you are sacrificing a lifeform for a significant amount of time?? <b>So if your gorge isnt needed late game - why do you want a system that will force the gorge to stay as a gorge late game</b> - this is no fun for the player. Not costing Pres opens up options to him to leave the gorge! (but at a tradeoff as mentioned, so he better be sure hes not needed!)</li><li>Its almost as if you are arguing FOR the removal of Pres but you don't notice it.</li></ul>
So..still no valid reason.... :-/
So..still no valid reason.... :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've taken a position that can't be argued against.
Likewise, if it currently used PRes and you were trying to argue it shouldn't I could repeat your same arguments verbatim as to why it doesn't need to change.
"It can stay using PRes and UWE will balance it."
"There's no reason it can't be balanced using PRes"
Making the whole point of arguing against you pointless, because you aren't arguing that it isn't flawed you're arguing that it's theoretically possible for it not to be flawed.
And <b>anything</b>, is theoretically possible.
The point of the gorge being useless late game is a completely different problem IMO.
At this point i dont really care much anymore you fail to see any points I or others make its not worth my time.
"There's no reason it can't be balanced using PRes"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. And considering it's downsides as i mentioned, i see less of a reason to use it.
<i>"Making the whole point of arguing against you pointless, because you aren't arguing that it isn't flawed you're arguing that it's theoretically possible for it not to be flawed."</i>
If you can give me a theoretical way to solve the problems that i listed that came with costing Pres, <i><b>then you have achieved my challenge of providing a valid argument for costing Pres.</b> </i>
@xDragon:
<i>"How is staying gorge with the free hydras sacrificing a lifeform?"</i>
As we both said, a fade is more effective, so you are sacrificing your ability to be that effective lifeform for speeding up build times, spreading infestation, blocking paths, setting up protective hydras, and healing the frontlines.
<i>"but if he just sits around on his hydra pile then fades once he has the res nothing was delayed except by the initial 10 pres"</i>
A skulk can do this with spending ZERO res... :)
Man, i have seen your points, and i have effectively countered them with rebuttals - bullet point by bullet point. I apologize if you are upset but i have merely engaged in a logical discussion, no hard feelings. Your time is your own to spend, i am merely here to discuss. My challenge remains, however.
<i>"Making the whole point of arguing against you pointless, because you aren't arguing that it isn't flawed you're arguing that it's theoretically possible for it not to be flawed."</i>
If you can give me a theoretical way to solve the problems that i listed that came with costing Pres, <i><b>then you have achieved my challenge of providing a valid argument for costing Pres.</b> </i>
@xDragon:
<i>"How is staying gorge with the free hydras sacrificing a lifeform?"</i>
As we both said, a fade is more effective, so you are sacrificing your ability to be that effective lifeform for speeding up build times, spreading infestation, blocking paths, setting up protective hydras, and healing the frontlines.
<i>"but if he just sits around on his hydra pile then fades once he has the res nothing was delayed except by the initial 10 pres"</i>
A skulk can do this with spending ZERO res... :)
Man, i have seen your points, and i have effectively countered them with rebuttals - bullet point by bullet point. I apologize if you are upset but i have merely engaged in a logical discussion, no hard feelings. Your time is your own to spend, i am merely here to discuss. My challenge remains, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you mind re-posting them for me?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ironhorse, you kind of ignored my big post in regards to why p.res cost is needed on hydras, certainly from a balance perspective.
Unless you can come up with a way to have free structures, without the price of gorge being 'off' at 10 p.res, it's impossible for you to argue the current mechanic is better for gameplay.
I reiterate:
- Gorges are no doubt too cheap at 10 p.res given that you now also pay for the 'free' buildings that come with the lifeform
- If gorges were more expensive, you would have no need for structures disappearing when the gorge is gone, since you actually PAID a proper price for the gorge hydras (for example 20 instead of 10 p.res for the gorges. It's no different than a marine getting mines with 15 p.res, they stay around even if he dies.)
- Raising the cost of the gorge, as is necessary to maintain balance, is undesirable however, given the constraints of the res model (disabling you from using starting p.res as a mechanic to prolong early game) and the impact such a hike would have on player flexibility. (It's like marines no longer being able to buy welders and mines seperately, instead they have to buy them in a package at 20 p.res, but what if you want to just weld something? What if you just want to go gorge real quick to heal the hive? At 20 p.res for example that would be a crazy price to pay for just the healing aspect. Loss of flexibility.)
It's incredibly clear to me that gorges at 10 p.res are essentially broken, and it's clear to UWE as well. But instead of fixing it properly (Either p.res cost or higher gorge cost, the former being much more desirable) they've decided to throw another flawed and confusing mechanic into the game.
Tell me UWE, what is the difference between someone going gorge to drop 3 hydras and someone dropping 3 mines? Other than their respective costs? How can we have one but not the other? Raising the gorge cost would solve this dilemma, but it would come at the heavy price of loss of player flexibility. Only a seperate cost on hydras and the gorge properly solves the issue.
Nothing is ever free in terms of balance, either the hydras need to be reflected in the base gorge price or they need to receive a separate price once again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I replied too, and so have you since then. <b>Well done, again.</b>
But i think we have a solution now,
for all those to see:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118255&view=findpost&p=1933232" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1933232</a>
edit: @ Jay:
Yea no prob,
1) costing pres means gorge needs pres to spend initially since he is needed initially, this makes the starting Pres for all aliens too high, and thus skips the early game, allowing lerks to evolve in an average of 2 minutes and fades in 5. There is no other reason to have initial pres so high (25)
2) forcing those who choose gorge to stay as a gorge for the entirety of the game if they are to have an impact. Spending Pres to be an effective gorge means you cant ever step out of his role to go fade for example because lets face it- if you had 50 pres as a gorge you weren't doing enough! This way gives the choice - tradeoff to not be locked in, like every other class.
3) theres one more but i cant think of it.. will edit.
Screw you Xarius, I'ma copy all your ideas onto my thread and then we let your thread die.
Just kidding, I'll stop posting after this.
Like I've said before, the timings on the higher lifeforms are fine. 6:12 is usually the lowest time you'll see the Alien team reach 50 p.res, and depending on how aggressive the Marines have been against the new weakened RTs, it can easily be delayed over 7 minutes and sometimes up to 8 minutes (especially if the Marines took out 1-2 RT at the start). The problem, as always, lies in the quantity of the higher lifeforms; a problem which is a direct result of the upgrade chamber/RT/Hive resource sink being removed from the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1933248:date=May 3 2012, 06:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) forcing those who choose gorge to stay as a gorge for the entirety of the game if they are to have an impact. Spending Pres to be an effective gorge means you cant ever step out of his role to go fade for example because lets face it- if you had 50 pres as a gorge you weren't doing enough! This way gives the choice - tradeoff to not be locked in, like every other class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, if you were to make a p.res investment in Gorge you would want to stay Gorge for the entire game, but then again Gorge is a whole different beast and this is to be expected. It's absolutely fine if this happens on the condition that Hydra mechanics are changed (lowered price, ability to move/refund, limit removed) because it would provide the potential to invest in a very strong area of denial and forward base of operations. But again, that's only given the condition of Hydra mechanical changes.