Free Building for Gorge
Jayaris
Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149321Members
Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149321Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Don't see how it's practical long-term</div>There's just too many scenario's where a single Gorge can lock down a corridor to the point that it's impossible for two marines to break and where two Gorges can lock down a corridor to the point that it's impossible to break without GL's at which point a single Whip makes it impossible to break without ARC's.
This kind of Static Defense is easily established within the first one-two minutes with competent gorges and far positions and on maps that only have a few lanes this shuts down a lot of Marine expansion and leaves any open area to be better focused by skulks.
You might argue that a single gorge is easily overwhelmed, a single marine with less than perfect aim can't kill a healspraying Gorge before it (plus hydra DPS) kills him and if a group of people are coming the Gorge can run before they try to get past the Hydras. If the Hydras fall he can replace them for free.
If the marines focus the hydras from range by a couple marines they can be rebuilt faster than they are killed. Now that's just a single gorge acting alone requiring a focused effort to kill for the cost of 10 pres for him..
Two gorges is impossible to break without GL's and like I said that becomes a problem when a Whip is put down.
Maybe this only happens with bad marines, but I pushed North Tunnel with another Gorge to the Marine WH start and there was nothing they could do about it.
Second hive comes up relatively quickly and suddenly you have half the routes on the map locked out by Hydras.
The Gorge is survivable enough, Hydras are incredibly easy to make and several times harder to kill and if there is too many of them they requiring end-game tech from the Marines to break first second tech from Aliens.
It simply doesn't make any sense, I have no problem with Cysts remaining free or Clogs - But, having Hydras for free is just ridiculous.
Honestly I didn't think much of it (I had assumed developers would realize the obvious mistake), it was only when I saw in the development thread that they planned on having Structures made by people who Gorge then switch out disappearing over time as if this would solve everything and without it is balanced - Which it is not.
If this game wants to release in a few months the developers need to work on balance. The only place where they had a similar mechanic like this was in Combat Mode NS1 and that was because everyone spawned with upgrades.
But, if you can convince me that this is better than the PRes system and that having Gorges sat around with 90 PRes makes sense I'd be glad of the counsel.
So please let me know what you think about the new building changes.
This kind of Static Defense is easily established within the first one-two minutes with competent gorges and far positions and on maps that only have a few lanes this shuts down a lot of Marine expansion and leaves any open area to be better focused by skulks.
You might argue that a single gorge is easily overwhelmed, a single marine with less than perfect aim can't kill a healspraying Gorge before it (plus hydra DPS) kills him and if a group of people are coming the Gorge can run before they try to get past the Hydras. If the Hydras fall he can replace them for free.
If the marines focus the hydras from range by a couple marines they can be rebuilt faster than they are killed. Now that's just a single gorge acting alone requiring a focused effort to kill for the cost of 10 pres for him..
Two gorges is impossible to break without GL's and like I said that becomes a problem when a Whip is put down.
Maybe this only happens with bad marines, but I pushed North Tunnel with another Gorge to the Marine WH start and there was nothing they could do about it.
Second hive comes up relatively quickly and suddenly you have half the routes on the map locked out by Hydras.
The Gorge is survivable enough, Hydras are incredibly easy to make and several times harder to kill and if there is too many of them they requiring end-game tech from the Marines to break first second tech from Aliens.
It simply doesn't make any sense, I have no problem with Cysts remaining free or Clogs - But, having Hydras for free is just ridiculous.
Honestly I didn't think much of it (I had assumed developers would realize the obvious mistake), it was only when I saw in the development thread that they planned on having Structures made by people who Gorge then switch out disappearing over time as if this would solve everything and without it is balanced - Which it is not.
If this game wants to release in a few months the developers need to work on balance. The only place where they had a similar mechanic like this was in Combat Mode NS1 and that was because everyone spawned with upgrades.
But, if you can convince me that this is better than the PRes system and that having Gorges sat around with 90 PRes makes sense I'd be glad of the counsel.
So please let me know what you think about the new building changes.
Comments
- Too much bang for your buck at 10 p.res (For 15 p.res marines get 3 mines)
- No p.res sink for gorges, exacerbates the issue of mass fade/onos later in the game (since gorge players are just sitting on p.res they can't spend) - Biggest issue currently
Keep in mind they intend on having structures disappear when the owner dies and doesn't go gorge again, or evolves into something else. Though that doesn't address any of the issues I mentioned above
*This does not fit the core mechanics of ns2. When you start going away from the core mechanics the game starts to get chaotic and very hard to balance. This is very clear in the recent builds. In most cases these kind of solutions end up creating new problems that need to be patched up(and then the circle continues).
*This is not the key to make gorges more used, there are other solutions that have been posted on the forums that are more viable. There are clear ways to make gorges more useful in ns2 even though the gorge could only build Hydras. Gorges were not only used in ns1 as a builder.
*Extra point. Teams should never be forced to go gorge in the beginning, feels like that's the direction they are going for to lower the lifeforms number. Instead of creating forceful res sink to try to fix a non existing problem its better to work with the core res mechanics and make it work as well as possible. Just make the game work with 3-4 fades in the mid game(I actually enjoy fighting a lot of fades, its just to easy for them to survive). If they don't want the game be like that then they should add extra number of lifeforms or change the core res mechanics to fit the gameplay they want.
grenades are free, aren't they?
quit whining!
grenades are free, aren't they?
quit whining!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenades, that require 45 TRes to research.
Grenades that are easily countered by a single whip.
It's this kind of senseless "Stop Whining" logic, that lets the developers think they're doing a good job when they aren't.
I quite clearly outlined my thoughts on Grenades countering Hydra's on my original post, please learn to read properly next time.
If you did read it, perhaps you disagree with something I said :
Do you feel Whips don't reliably knock back Grenades?
That the 10 TRes cost of a Whip is too expensive?
grenades are free, aren't they?
quit whining!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is part of the reason why its so hard to keep motivated on the forums. Instead of giving us a very good argument why you don't agree with the posts above you simply said: ,,Please stop posting because I don't agree with you guys, Hydras are fine."
If you read my answer you can see that I didn't say anything about a problem with dealing with the hydras, there are plenty of ways to do it. The problem is it does not fit a game that revolves around economy. The point its better to work with your core mechanics instead of creating quick fixes. It sometimes feels like the devs don't understand how their game works very well, hopefully these are unnecessary worries. They are still awesome devs to be able to make this kind of game but I don wonder how much knowledge they have on ns gameplay mechanics.
Now they might still surprise me and show me how wrong I am, but considering how the game has developed from last 8 patches I have my doubts.
Right now you have binary uninteresting situations - run away, or die in a few seconds to hydras if you don't have gls.
I think the devs should make an effort to balance them when they are free in the current system where gorges get better and better with each hive
Making Hydras cost even 1 res would make me never want to play gorge in the current build
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only place where they had a similar mechanic like this was in Combat Mode NS1 and that was because everyone spawned with upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems there is some kind of tension between NS2 being combat or classic, fleshing out the alien commander pulls a bit on the classic rts side, but moves like free hydras goes more toward combat or some class based death match. I hope all this will not end up in some deformed mutant.
But I would agree for a 50%-75% recycle, because it promotes moving useless hydra to the front lines, instead of dropping more.
I think the devs should make an effort to balance them when they are free in the current system where gorges get better and better with each hive
Making Hydras cost even 1 res would make me never want to play gorge in the current build<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As Grissi already said, there are issues left even if Hydra's are "balanced". Why create more issues when you could simply change the hydra mechanic to something more workable.
<!--quoteo(post=1931609:date=Apr 29 2012, 01:06 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 29 2012, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather they keep the hydras more or less how they are, but charge for example 5 p.res for them. That and increase their build and reyccle time, so gorges can't just drop them in the middle of combat. Could still put a hardcap on them, even with a p.res cost. (Or price them at 10 and allow recycling to give back the p.res)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only issue with altering build times is that it might lead to a gorge dying when he's simply trying to set up a defensive position and it's close bases. Gorges never really dropped hydras in combat before because it simply wasn't worth the cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1931638:date=Apr 29 2012, 02:42 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Apr 29 2012, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that it completely negates all the points that have come before, but people seem to be forgetting that their is a downside to being a gorge, whereas their is no negative aspect to, for example, buying a pack of mines, or having a grenade launcher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a perceived downside for the individual, but it is better to have 5 skulks and 1 gorge or 6 skulks? As a whole the team benefits from the gorge with the new overall building system - He can get the hive up ridiculously quickly he can help with cysts and get every other building up faster and he can heal etc. etc.
I'm not convinced that being a Gorge is a disadvantage is what I'm trying to say - Pre-206 I might of agreed with you, but because of the new building times (even if hydras still cost pres) the Gorge is too beneficial.
As far as reducing the personal cost of Hydra's goes I'm all for it, 5 to me seems fair - The number of initial hydra's remains the same.
I think recycling + cost reduction is a bit too much, but maybe that's just me (I would prefer 10pres + 100% recycle).
And I agree with the poster above when he says increasing Gorge cost is not the way to go about it.
I'm not convinced that being a Gorge is a disadvantage is what I'm trying to say - Pre-206 I might of agreed with you, but because of the new building times (even if hydras still cost pres) the Gorge is too beneficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say the gorge was a disadvantage, I said their was a negative aspect to being one, which is easy to show.
Would you rather have 8 vanilla marines or 8 jet pack marines? -> 8 jet pack marines everytime
Would you rather have 8 skulks or 8 gorges? -> 8 gorges will lose you the game
Hence why comparing the cost of gorging to the cost of mines or grenade launchers is futile. They aren't they same kind of investment.
Would you rather have 8 vanilla marines or 8 jet pack marines? -> 8 jet pack marines everytime
Would you rather have 8 skulks or 8 gorges? -> 8 gorges will lose you the game
Hence why comparing the cost of gorging to the cost of mines or grenade launchers is futile. They aren't they same kind of investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid your examples aren't as cut and dry as you might like.
The negative aspect to the Grenade Launcher is self-damage.
The negative aspect to Jetpack is that their movement is not particularly reliable and your marines probably haven't had much experience manoeuvring them - Let alone flying while aiming. Because of this most (I say most to be reasonable, I actually think it's all) of the time the Jetpack marine is far less accurate and it's also why Jetpack marines are constantly getting killed by Skulks because they simply aren't able to take proper care of their surrounding or put a threat down when it approaches.
Because of this I would much prefer 8 Vanillia Marines with 10 PRes then 8 Jetpack Marines without - Vanilla marines are more likely to stay together and their accuracy is as a whole better.
The only situation I can think of wanting Jetpack Marines is if the Map had some inherent exploitable areas for Jetpacks or if the Alien team was particularly lax in hive defence and my guys could just fly in and kill it uninterrupted. Needless to say strategies that rely on your opponents being bad aren't great..
I'm quite confident 8 Gorges could win a game quite easily with a modicum of organization, Comm blazes cysts to their main and you hydra as soon as you see marines then push forward with them. One or two can even stay behind to prevent runaround hive rushes..
I've even seen 8 player Gorge rushes work quite well and those were just basic healspray and try to kill all marines rush not a hyper aggressive Hydra leapfrog.
Edit : But, this isn't particularly all that relevant to the topic - In Short all Lifeforms have negative aspects - Fade does less damage to buildings - Skulk has low health - Onos is a massive target etc.
Gorges were useful in many situations. If there were a lot of marines pressuring 1 side our team sometimes got hydras. If we needed a focused push far away from a hive we used a gorge to heal. If we were really low on rts or the hive was low on hp we got a gorge to heal.
If the gorge got a useful 3rd ability again he would be used a lot more. One of the big reason why you didn't see gorge as much in competitive play is because his main mid/late game ability was removed.
The negative aspect to the Grenade Launcher is self-damage.
The negative aspect to Jetpack is that their movement is not particularly reliable and your marines probably haven't had much experience manoeuvring them - Let alone flying while aiming. Because of this most (I say most to be reasonable, I actually think it's all) of the time the Jetpack marine is far less accurate and it's also why Jetpack marines are constantly getting killed by Skulks because they simply aren't able to take proper care of their surrounding or put a threat down when it approaches.
Because of this I would much prefer 8 Vanillia Marines with 10 PRes then 8 Jetpack Marines without - Vanilla marines are more likely to stay together and their accuracy is as a whole better.
The only situation I can think of wanting Jetpack Marines is if the Map had some inherent exploitable areas for Jetpacks or if the Alien team was particularly lax in hive defence and my guys could just fly in and kill it uninterrupted. Needless to say strategies that rely on your opponents being bad aren't great..
I'm quite confident 8 Gorges could win a game quite easily with a modicum of organization, Comm blazes cysts to their main and you hydra as soon as you see marines then push forward with them. One or two can even stay behind to prevent runaround hive rushes..
I've even seen 8 player Gorge rushes work quite well and those were just basic healspray and try to kill all marines rush not a hyper aggressive Hydra leapfrog.
Edit : But, this isn't particularly all that relevant to the topic - In Short all Lifeforms have negative aspects - Fade does less damage to buildings - Skulk has low health - Onos is a massive target etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I strongly believe that everybody is entitled to their own opinion, in this particular case you are simply wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1931653:date=Apr 30 2012, 01:34 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 30 2012, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge was very powerful in the pre builds as a forward healer and support. He simply lacked a 3rd ability.
Gorges were useful in many situations. If there were a lot of marines pressuring 1 side our team sometimes got hydras. If we needed a focused push far away from a hive we used a gorge to heal. If we were really low on rts or the hive was low on hp we got a gorge to heal.
If the gorge got a useful 3rd ability again he would be used a lot more. One of the big reason why you didn't see gorge as much in competitive play is because his main mid/late game ability was removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its times like these that I truly feel sorry for UWE. Prior to 206 they were taking a lot of flak for the gorge being "completely useless", with most players saying that there is absolutely no reason to go gorge whatsoever. Then remarks like these arise once the gorge is made more powerful. A perplexing conundrum for UWE I'm sure.
While watching those games today I almost, almost had that vibe of a resource sink that the old Gorge gave off. I was keeping an eye on resource counts (for some stat tracking) and I saw a lot of instances where two people had gone Gorge early which slightly staggered the team's resources (which is a very, very good thing for Alien balance). Unfortunately I doubt that was UWE's intention and the 10 res on two people didn't have much of an impact (though a situation like that may change next patch with the armour buff).
Gorges feel so close to being something needed by the Aliens. I just can't see that something being adding a resource cost to Hydras or having them disappear, because in the end you're forcing a player to invest in a static defense whereas they could just go Skulk and be mobile. I honestly can't see competitive teams sending someone Gorge for Hydras and forcing them to stay as such the entire game because right now Hydras are in a decent place as a deterrent for areas, but they are by no means required.
To use another example, Game #1 of Exertus vs 420 and Game #1 of Duplex vs All-In saw the entire Alien team (including Commander at some points) just going higher lifeforms and skipping over the Gorge. I think that these two situations will become common place in competitive games after any Gorge nerfs next patch, and Gorges will be delegated to the back seat again.
If Hydras are placed correctly marines are forced to spend a lot of time and or firepower destroying them, also while attacking a structure like cysts or hydras it opens up the possibility to jump in as smart alien to easily finish off an attacking marine (while reloading, or out of ammo), it can even force them into a special tech route. (gl, arcs, tho gls can easily be countered + you have a hard time when fades are on the field having lots of gls instead of shotguns)
While its not my style of playing nobody here is really complaining about the gorge abilities itself, only that they are free of res cost. (tho clogs are not really that useful - you basically deny escape routes for higher lifeforms - so you only place them to make a penis for fun in front of the enemy base at best... maybe i just haven figured out a better use :P - im not a gorge player usually )
@post above, yeah gorge is still not used that much more(at least non public, public its just sentry mine hydra spam everywhere) - but you often see at least 1-2 players spamming their hydras at a key location. 10pres for gorging doesnt set you back much but it can greatly helps you dealing a bit better with marine pressure - especially now that alien rts can be sniped by like 3 lvl0 lmg mags.
If you are playing a weaker marine team, you dont have to do it - but against good marine teams it helps a lot if 2-3 aliens go gorge once to place his 3 free hydras. As said the 10pres dont delay you much - so why not abuse it...
IMO a gorge at the start is definitely useful, though I wouldn't call them 'needed'. I.e harvesters build pretty slowly, forcing the comm to mist or get a gorge if he wants to have those up fast. In addition, those three hydras at the start can definitely have an impact and can properly delay even several marines trying to push into an area. But I will admit he's not 'needed' per say, getting an extra skulk for that added pressure is likely a much better way to win games currently. I honestly don't know if UWE is aiming to make the gorge 'needed'. They said they don't want the game to revolve around the gorge like it did in NS 1, but on the other hand, there needs to be a significant enough reason AND trade-off to have a gorge on the team. They're moving in the right direction, but we're not yet quite there. And the free buildings was definitely an unnecessary step in making them useful.
Also, I definitely believe clog needs to be made a base ability, rather than an augmented. It's really not on par with any of the other abilities aliens get, and I would say clog is generally the most powerful early on. At the stage it is currently made available (+- 8 min), it doesn't have much of an impact or purpose at all.
What I'd personally like to see:
- Hydras at 5- 10 p.res (capped per hive, partial or full refund on recycle)
- Free clogs (capped per hive)
- 'Full' cysts instead of mini, at 1 or 2 p.res per. (The hardcap on cysts is a really messy system due to chains getting broken when gorge recycles etc)
I'm not just saying that out of experience with NS2 either. Anyone who plays games with static defenses that have a cost will tell you to stay away from them whenever possible (Starcraft 2 comes to mind right off the bat).
Don't really know if performance would be too much of an issue. One of the biggest reasons there was a push for Gorge buffs was because a Gorge could drop 100 res worth of Hydras (10) and have Marines ignore them. Don't recall performance issues coming up in those threads.
Thats something you have to thing about when you drop hydras....or use to at least. Now it's just "Oh rines going other entrance?" "Lemme just move my garden real quick"
What I meant was that before this build they had horrible tracking (which I was told was increased this build). Marines could just walk by them without getting hit. Now at least Marines have to be mindful of Hydras.