I've killed gorges as they are putting down "desperation hydras". . . They are at maybe 23% and get axed down immediately; it's not even an issue as you say
Gorges holding off large numbers of marines alone is; however, which is why I keep asking for buffs to advanced marines weapons
Shotgun is probably getting a boost soon and hopefully I won't have to sit through another 2 weeks of new Flamethrower Threads popping up on the forums threads either
If you're going to make marine weapons better at tackling hydras, why bother putting down hydras at all? It's better to keep them the way they are, but stop the endless recycling and hydraturtling that is currently going on. Yes hydras being built are easy to take down, but a smart gorge will just fall back a little and replace his three hydras there for a renewed 'fortress' (Sure you've gained some grounds as marines. but it's really the aliens who are winning it in the long run), it only takes a matter of seconds to build them up safely. Then when he receives backup and the marines are out-attritioned, he will just throw his hydras forward again. Rinse repeat, until marines get gls (assuming the alien khamm hasn't come through with whips in the meantime) or ARCs.
Put a cooldown on hydra recycling, or a p.res cost (with partial recycling refund), and once marines do break through a gorge position they won't have to deal with it again 5 meters further down the corridor. (This way hydras remain a proper defensive structure, with the initial placement becoming more important since the gorge won't just be able to rebuild them elsewhere seconds later. You'll actually have a proper trade-off.
Mind you I do agree the flamethrower needs a boost, I just don't agree with any other weaponry needing a specific boost versus hydras and structures in general when you're not addressing the core issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1932028:date=May 1 2012, 01:35 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 1 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're going to make marine weapons better at tackling hydras, why bother putting down hydras at all? It's better to keep them the way they are, but stop the endless recycling and hydraturtling that is currently going on. Yes hydras being built are easy to take down, but a smart gorge will just fall back a little and replace his three hydras there for a renewed 'fortress' (Sure you've gained some grounds as marines. but it's really the aliens who are winning it in the long run), it only takes a matter of seconds to build them up safely. Then when he receives backup and the marines are out-attritioned, he will just throw his hydras forward again. Rinse repeat, until marines get gls (assuming the alien khamm hasn't come through with whips in the meantime) or ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the part that deeply concerns me, and it mirrors a phenomenon occurring all over these forums. You are now asking that changes be made which prevent the marine team from making a bad decision. You're saying that a bunch of marines pushed into an area which was of little benefit to them, took ages to do it and wasted a lot of men. They were then pushed back out of the area because they had failed to make the required fortifications, and are now at square -5. Just because its possible to make a strategic blunder doesn't mean the gorge is overpowered.
I for one gladly welcome more opportunities to make mistakes in this game.
Your response makes very little sense, you are defending gorges not being able to make any strategic blunders while at the same time condemning marines for making one, and advocating more strategic blunders should be possible. Facedesk.
An area which was of little benefit to marines? Say gorges lock down computer lab while marines are in FC and aliens in Sub, how is computer lab not of any benefit to the marines? If they can push into computer lab they can secure the RT and probably force an entry into sub hive. I also never implied gorges were OP, you are clearly not reading my posts properly. I don't even think hydras are OP. <b>I only said the mechanic of being able to endlessly, at no cost, and instantly replace lost hydras is broken. </b> It'd be no different than marines buying a 'pack' of 3 sentries at X p.res and being able to constantly recycle them for as long as the marines are alive. How would that ever result in proper gameplay? The marines could just turtle up with sentries, the same way gorges can with hydras currently.
Hydras being as strong as they are currently is fine, provided they actually remain STATIC structures, and are limited either through cost or through a cap. In their current implementation, you may as well call them semi-static. (Since you can essentially roll them back or forward endlessly as gorge) Some thought should go into the placement of hydras, and bad placement SHOULD be punished. (either through the p.res cost or some sort of replacement delay) BAD hydra placement would be a strategic blunder like pre 206, just the kind of thing you want to see possible more often.
<!--quoteo(post=1932044:date=May 1 2012, 02:03 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 1 2012, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your response makes very little sense, you are defending gorges not being able to make any strategic blunders while at the same time condemning marines for making one, and advocating more strategic blunders should be possible. Facedesk.
An area which was of little benefit to marines? Say gorges lock down computer lab while marines are in FC and aliens in Sub, how is computer lab not of any benefit to the marines? If they can push into computer lab they can secure the RT and probably force an entry into sub hive. I also never implied gorges were OP, you are clearly not reading my posts properly. I don't even think hydras are OP. <b>I only said the mechanic of being able to endlessly, at no cost, and instantly replace lost hydras is broken. </b> It'd be no different than marines buying a 'pack' of 3 sentries at X p.res and being able to constantly recycle them for as long as the marines are alive. How would that ever result in proper gameplay? The marines could just turtle up with sentries, the same way gorges can with hydras currently.
Hydras being as strong as they are currently is fine, provided they actually remain STATIC structures, and are limited either through cost or through a cap. In their current implementation, you may as well call them semi-static. (Since you can essentially roll them back or forward endlessly as gorge) Some thought should go into the placement of hydras, and bad placement SHOULD be punished. (either through the p.res cost or some sort of replacement delay) BAD hydra placement would be a strategic blunder like pre 206, just the kind of thing you want to see possible more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, well, lets continue with your little scenario. Say marines are now moving on computer lab, but the team gorges have built their hydras at the immediate entrance to Sub Access and at Ventilation. Does their strategic mistake have any affect on the game?
I was going to leave that as an open question, but at the risk of you seeing what you want to see (which seems to be a trend throughout this thread) I will rather answer it myself. If the gorges don't take the initiative and block the marines off ahead of the res tower, the alien team is now down X number of players (typically 2 gorges) and are being pushed on a close, valuable location. With less available players, statistically they will lose that location.
And no, the gorges aren't simply going to realise the marines are taking computer lab, teleport to the front line, run into 5 marines and drop 3 hydras and heal them to full. Not going to happen. A gorge needs tos et up a fortification a good 30-60 seconds before a marine is even within sound range.
Gorges choose their locations to defend. Marines choose their locations to attack, that's the way it works. The nice thing about rapid hydra deployment and redeployment is that it makes the marines <b>choose </b>what they are going to take. Pre 206 (and it actually continues into 206 to a lesser degree) marines chose to take everything. They simply walked around the entire map capping everything. This is completely against the concept of map control, and goes against the strategy of natural selection.
The strategic blunder in regards to gorges occurs when they for example build hydras in crossroads or atrium, when marines are clearly pushing on sub access. I.e gorges are not placing their hydras to delay the likely marine advances on important areas (hive rooms, hives being built, marine spawn exit) OR they are simply placing them in bad spots (clearly in sight in doorways rather than on ceilings, ...). In the current build, there is nothing stopping those gorges who made the strategic blunder from just getting down to important areas in time and putting up their hydras there regardless OR just replacing the hydras that are in bad places...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges choose their locations to defend. Marines choose their locations to attack, that's the way it works. The nice thing about rapid hydra deployment and redeployment is that it makes the marines choose what they are going to take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that marines don't really have a choice in where to fight since they can't properly push on hydras before ARCs and GLS come in. I.e they are forced to go the side that has no hydra fortresses pretty much. There should be a reward to breaking up these hydra camps with a well coordinated marine push, even on low tech, and a delay before aliens can just set another one up around the corner. (And no, you don't need 30 - 60 seconds to build up 3 or even more hydras, go time it)
Where are those areas of little interest for marines? Are we now assuming gorge players are retarded?
Also while its true that it can be hard to get into the position to even put down your hydras where it makes sense - its more a matter of teamwork and timing... Can you expect it to work, sending a solo marine in an area where you see constant pressure of aliens to build some stuff and not just die quickly?
Where are these dumb marines that are ignoring the Gorge (with no energy) and shooting the Hydras? I want to give them all a slap in the face for giving Marines a bad reputation of being brainless idiots that get distracted at every opportunity. These damned Marines keep getting kited by Gorges with ADD-inducing buildings.
"Quick! Kill the Gorge!" "But there's a cyst over there."
Gorges usually only die if they they are on solo missions - or overextending, getting caught off-guard.
But whatever, in the current patch its too good, and with the upcoming patch making hydras despawn after death or change of lifeform you will only see gorges if aliens do a bad job early game(taking about non-public) - to relieve some pressure getting players to the fading point - after that you can go back skulk or support your fades... and joing them 2-5min later.
Other than marines, aliens can play more defensive and do a relative bad job economy wise early to midgame... and still come out as winners.
Sure makes gorge fun though! I do agree that gorge atm is too powerful against non-GL marines but I think they might be on to something with the free buildings, they allow the gorge to be played in a much more dynamic and exciting manner. Perhaps the hydras need to be considerably frailer so that they can be easily killed by marines and thus will only be really viable as on the side support rather than frontline defences?
<!--quoteo(post=1931652:date=Apr 29 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Apr 29 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The negative aspect to Jetpack is that their movement is not particularly reliable and your marines probably haven't had much experience manoeuvring them - Let alone flying while aiming. Because of this most (I say most to be reasonable, I actually think it's all) of the time the Jetpack marine is far less accurate and it's also why Jetpack marines are constantly getting killed by Skulks because they simply aren't able to take proper care of their surrounding or put a threat down when it approaches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a not only a temporary limitation but one based on the players. If your players are good (or have played enough to get practised) this will not be an issue at all. This is like saying you would prefer smg marines to GL marines because the GL marines will get themselves killed with their own nades by being retards while there is no such danger to the smg marines.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1931993:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 30 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys kind of ignored the biggest reason as to why them costing p.res is important: i.e it prevents a gorge from just instantly putting down a new hydra the moment one is about to die or gets killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anndddd my point comes out again: Requiring Pres is not the only way to solve this issue!! Yes, as you mentioned you can have cooldowns<i> just like every other alien class uses? </i> And with Hard caps non dependent on hives the only instance where you could put down another hydra is when you haven't reached your cap yet. No issue in that. But say that last hydra dies and BAM gorge can put down another as he currently can, well thats easily solvable by requiring a time after a hydra death before you can build another. (cooldowns) So once again, no need for Pres?
<!--quoteo(post=1931993:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 30 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras really shouldn't be able to be replaced/recycled instantly, which is why I think a p.res cost would be a much more effective system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pres has absolutely nothing to do with recycling your hydra? It would work with or without recycling? And i think its a great idea! keep the "combat engineer" able to make a decision of offensive or defensive hydras - <b>adaptable to the situation.</b> Any issue that comes from lack of PRes here, like say taking a penalty for recycling the hydra, can be solved with yet another cooldown before placing it again. (you can even match / reflect whatever pres requirement / recycled % timing you wish in the cooldown.)
Edit: ok i see you mentioned cooldowns again in a later post. i jumped the gun responding before i finished reading the whole page. P.s. i'm pushing the issue of cooldowns for replaced hydras as well as maturing mini cysts into cysts after X amount of time. idk what my pushing will accomplish tho.
The argument that the gorge can rebuild a hydra while it was destroyed is... 1. The hydras goes mature, so it has less health 2. The hydras are limited to 3 at first 3. hydras are easy to kill, there tons of tactics to kill them, even simply shoot them 4. the gorge can rebuild hydras, but WHILE he place a hydra, he lost much energy, so he can : a) heal the hydra to build it up = no energy left for new hydra b) build another hydra but he has no energy left to build them up fast...so marines can kill him and the hydras easy.
It just make no sense, forcing the gorge to empty his pres just because of some useless hydras... So a gorge waste his pres for 3 hydras and has nothing left anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1932131:date=Apr 30 2012, 11:46 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Apr 30 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The argument that the gorge can rebuild a hydra while it was destroyed is... 1. The hydras goes mature, so it has less health 2. The hydras are limited to 3 at first 3. hydras are easy to kill, there tons of tactics to kill them, even simply shoot them 4. the gorge can rebuild hydras, but WHILE he place a hydra, he lost much energy, so he can : a) heal the hydra to build it up = no energy left for new hydra b) build another hydra but he has no energy left to build them up fast...so marines can kill him and the hydras easy.
It just make no sense, forcing the gorge to empty his pres just because of some useless hydras... So a gorge waste his pres for 3 hydras and has nothing left anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The immature hydra still has plenty of health. 2. Three is plenty to properly shutdown a corridor. 3. They have quite low health, but unfortunately they also have incredible accuracy. 4. I don't say this because I've never played Gorge, I go Gorge a dozen times a day. Only a bad Gorge will run himself into a position where he's out of energy. Hydra's cost 1/3rd of your energy and have a short build time, they automatically regenerate health and it requires 3 heals to get them up and running. Unless the marines immediately focus the new hydra (which if you place it in the back they can't) it will go up on it's own and they can't afford to just stand there getting attacked by hydra's as you drop/heal.
There are situations where you can't heal and build because there are too many marines, in that case you run away and rebuild the hydra's elsewhere or back where they were at no cost to you.
<!--quoteo(post=1932151:date=May 1 2012, 09:14 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 1 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. The immature hydra still has plenty of health. 2. Three is plenty to properly shutdown a corridor. 3. They have quite low health, but unfortunately they also have incredible accuracy. 4. I don't say this because I've never played Gorge, I go Gorge a dozen times a day. Only a bad Gorge will run himself into a position where he's out of energy. Hydra's cost 1/3rd of your energy and have a short build time, they automatically regenerate health and it requires 3 heals to get them up and running. Unless the marines immediately focus the new hydra (which if you place it in the back they can't) it will go up on it's own and they can't afford to just stand there getting attacked by hydra's as you drop/heal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Define "plenty" of health, in what scenario? Against weapon1? weapons2? Grenades? Only mature ones really hold up well as an defense the gorge can heal up and hide behind. But that only works to a limited degree.
2. Only if they are mature and if the corridor is the only thing to worry about, but rooms usually have serveral entrances and building a "blockage wall" torwards one corridor leaves the gorge open from the back and the sides for flanking. Blocking off a corridor like this will make the hydras useless for defending anything of "worth" inside the room (like a hive). Because marines will just outflank your "corridor block".
3. Didn't you just argue that they have "plenty of health"? How can you now say they have low health and that's why they are so easy to kill? The fact is that a few well placed grandes completly negate any fortification that a gorge often spent minutes on building. And no you can't compare the costs, the current GL basicly has no downside compared to the original NS GL. You and other "economists" around here also keep ignoring that an GL isn't an "one use" ability. If a GL marine dies his weapon stays inside the round for other marines to pick up.
Same can't be said about the gorge/hydras/goo walls that GL marine just blew up before dying. But the gorge invested not only 10 P.res but also time and attention to building up these defenses and the gorges teammates spent time defending him there while he build up. That effort is now "lost", yes even time is an resource just like map control is one.
4. Sorry to say but your statement of "only a bad gorge runs out of energy" is a pretty ignorant one. Healing costs energy, building costs energy, spitting costs energy most of them an substantial ammount. You make it sound like it's some slow income resource that players havea big pool off. You ignore that the gorge has serveral dynamic duties at once healing hydras that are already getting shot or healing higher lifeforms. A gorge can't "chose" what to spent his energy on long term. He just manages in the moment depending on requirements.
As such any gorge will get constantly get in situations where his actions will be limited by energy alone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are situations where you can't heal and build because there are too many marines, in that case you run away and rebuild the hydra's elsewhere or back where they were at no cost to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what use is that tactic if the situation and the place is one of your teams hives? Fall back and build on the other side of the hive where marines don't pressure? Why are people so keen on making the gorge as useless as possible? Tbh i'm quite shocked about the backlash on the gorge changes, because personaly i love them all over the place. The game finnaly has gotten it's usefull "non combat role" back. A role you can play without having to depend a ton on twitch skill to be successfull but still can add something positive to the overall team effort by playing support.
Let's also not forget that due to the removal of bilbebomb the gorges role has gotten way more defensive anyway. As such in an 1on1 situation where the gorge had time to setup defenses he should be able to hold out against 2 marines unless they play smart, majority of marines don't play smart tho. Nobody does suicide rushes on gorges, nobody focus fires on certain hydras/the gorge. They just just unload randomly on targets and complain about "###### not dying" after they ran out of ammo.
What I would say that is positive about it is that I enjoyed going gorge for the first time in NS2. It used to be my favourite life form and since the removal of being able to build defence chambers as gorge and having to wait soo long for pres to build sufficient hydras (which were being bought reluctantly at the thought of "what do we need more, 6 hyrdras that marines MAY go into, or an onos?").
I think it's a step in the right direction, although perhaps it does need balancing out.
Actually, while I like being able to build stuff as a gorge, I think it's time to remove that ability and give hime a proper combat role.
Buildings are build by the commander. Sure gorges should be able to speed buildings up by healing them, that is a good change. But their second ability should be something combat oriented.
Incombat umbra or the good ol web?
This would not only solve some of the server performance issues, but also the current free building issues by replacing them completely.
Sure, he would need to become somewhat more sturdy or mobile to compensate.
He should still be a supporter, but one that can stand on his own against one or two marines for a while. He shouldn't be able to take them down on his own, but survive for more than his current 5 seconds.
I don't know... just doesn't feel right to have a squishy kinda engineer sitting in the back and shutting down tunnels, where no action is happening. Shouldn't the comm be responsible for buildings and gorge be responsible for speeding up expansion and inbombat healing? Does make much more sense to me tbh.
I don't know... get rid of spit, give him infestation vomit, slows down and reduces marine sight. Close-Mid range, similar to the flamethrower. Actually leaves infestation so he can vomit and slide to safety and his (Aug) ability would be umbra or some sort of empower ability.
It just doesn't feel right to have someone sit in the backrow in NS2... it worked in NS1, because only gorges were able to build things, but just because you want to keep with tradition doesn't mean it's a good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1932202:date=May 1 2012, 04:56 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 1 2012, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Define "plenty" of health, in what scenario? Against weapon1? weapons2? Grenades? Only mature ones really hold up well as an defense the gorge can heal up and hide behind. But that only works to a limited degree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...? I'm really confused why you would argue that mature ones hold up well and that Weapons upgrades are problematic for immature ones - Forgive me, but when do Marines get Weapon upgrades before the Gorges hydras mature?
Grenade Launchers? Like it's been mentioned several times, properly placed whips shut down Grenade Launchers to high heavens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Only if they are mature and if the corridor is the only thing to worry about, but rooms usually have serveral entrances and building a "blockage wall" torwards one corridor leaves the gorge open from the back and the sides for flanking. Blocking off a corridor like this will make the hydras useless for defending anything of "worth" inside the room (like a hive). Because marines will just outflank your "corridor block".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rooms have several entrances? Have you played the map pool lately? It boggles the mind how you could make that claim, two is the most common, three is rare and the only thing with four is cross roads/central drilling (the middle of maps). I suppose I can give you that before the recent additions to Mineshaft there were more three entrance rooms.
Again, I urge you to look at the maps there are two primary corridors that need shutting down in most of the maps.
Marines running past? Skulk takes care of it (I'd probably just healspray the guy to death) and they're already out of armour or they die in the attempt.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Didn't you just argue that they have "plenty of health"? How can you now say they have low health and that's why they are so easy to kill? The fact is that a few well placed grandes completly negate any fortification that a gorge often spent minutes on building. And no you can't compare the costs, the current GL basicly has no downside compared to the original NS GL. You and other "economists" around here also keep ignoring that an GL isn't an "one use" ability. If a GL marine dies his weapon stays inside the round for other marines to pick up.
Same can't be said about the gorge/hydras/goo walls that GL marine just blew up before dying. But the gorge invested not only 10 P.res but also time and attention to building up these defenses and the gorges teammates spent time defending him there while he build up. That effort is now "lost", yes even time is an resource just like map control is one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Hydra's have plenty of health to serve their purpose comparatively to non-offensive structures they have low-health. The statements are not contradictory. Minutes? I play a Gorge in 70% of my alien games, it takes 30 seconds to get up three Hydras and speaking of both extensive commander play and Gorge play a Whip will stop all GL play. I honestly don't know what game you're playing, do you just assume I don't play Gorge because I want it nerfed.
GL's are reusable? Sure, well they deteriorate after a while and they'll need reloading - But, if one of your players doesn't already have his own GL he can pick it up. The original Grenade Launcher wasn't constantly having it's grenades thrown back at your face.
Grenades are useful for killing bad lerks and skulks, they don't negate a proper hydra wall with a whip and they cost a considerable amount of TRes and PRes to get in play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Sorry to say but your statement of "only a bad gorge runs out of energy" is a pretty ignorant one. Healing costs energy, building costs energy, spitting costs energy most of them an substantial ammount. You make it sound like it's some slow income resource that players havea big pool off. You ignore that the gorge has serveral dynamic duties at once healing hydras that are already getting shot or healing higher lifeforms. A gorge can't "chose" what to spent his energy on long term. He just manages in the moment depending on requirements.
As such any gorge will get constantly get in situations where his actions will be limited by energy alone.
And what use is that tactic if the situation and the place is one of your teams hives? Fall back and build on the other side of the hive where marines don't pressure? Why are people so keen on making the gorge as useless as possible? Tbh i'm quite shocked about the backlash on the gorge changes, because personaly i love them all over the place. The game finnaly has gotten it's usefull "non combat role" back. A role you can play without having to depend a ton on twitch skill to be successfull but still can add something positive to the overall team effort by playing support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it ignorant to assume that if a Gorge is in an unwinnable position he should run away? Maybe it is - Healing costs 1/10th Hydra's cost 1/3rd (rough estimates) - I mean if Hydra's cost as much as Cysts I would agree that there is no way a Gorge isn't going to run out of energy.
I don't even remember the original argument and I can't be bothered to look back, these things cost energy but other lifeforms is irrelevant it was about defending a static wall and replacing hydras. If you can't keep up the hydra's and healing then you need to move. I've played a gorge, it's not that hard.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's also not forget that due to the removal of bilbebomb the gorges role has gotten way more defensive anyway. As such in an 1on1 situation where the gorge had time to setup defenses he should be able to hold out against 2 marines unless they play smart, majority of marines don't play smart tho. Nobody does suicide rushes on gorges, nobody focus fires on certain hydras/the gorge. They just just unload randomly on targets and complain about "###### not dying" after they ran out of ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like the removal of bilebomb, but oh well. Should a Gorge be able to hold out against two marines - Sure? But, for how long.. suiciding running is not the be all end all of killing Gorges some Corridors are tight some paths are long not every Gorge puts hydra's in an odd position and stand behind them leaving a 270 degree angle of attack. And what happens with two Gorges or two Hives - Suddenly it takes the entire team with ARC's to break (GLs < Whip).
But, let's say the marines are like "All right this isn't breakable let's go elsewhere" now the Gorge(s) can move forward with Hydra's creating even more problems for you.
"Surely then the Marines will push forward on the empty path(s) and the aliens will suffer" Maybe they get killed by Skulks onwards, maybe another Gorge puts down 3 Hydra's in there way and slows them down.
Don't understand why as a Gorge you would want this cheese, you should be accountable for losing Hydra's en masse. (I do feel 5PRes cost for Hydra's and 0PRes for Cysts would give Gorges a lot more freedom to position hydra's properly without being able to exploit the mechanic to push aggressively.
Is it Static Defense or Mobile Offense?
Edit : As an aside, if you truly do feel Energy makes Gorges balanced - What happens when Shift hives are introduced?
<!--quoteo(post=1932368:date=May 1 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 1 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Way to throw out your argument on the last line :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the second to last and a valid point, UWE blur the line between what a Hydra is supposed to do when they allow you to slow (or fast if you meet no resistance) push them into Enemy Structures.
I don't know why this is such a hot button topic, UWE has stated that Hydras will die after the Gorge dies or evolves into another lifeform. That will fix the spam issues without having to get into Pres again.
<!--quoteo(post=1932398:date=May 1 2012, 01:48 PM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ May 1 2012, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know why this is such a hot button topic, UWE has stated that Hydras will die after the Gorge dies or evolves into another lifeform. That will fix the spam issues without having to get into Pres again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the original post, the only reason I made this thread is because UWE stated that. I obviously don't think it's the solution to the issue, I rarely see people planting Hydra's and then switching lifeforms.
Maybe we could up the number of hydras if that were the case? 5 per hive could make it worth staying as a gorge. Then late game gorge hunting could be vitally important.
On second thought, that would incentivize gorges hiding in the hive so they don't lose their precious walls of lame, so... maybe not.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1932400:date=May 1 2012, 01:51 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ May 1 2012, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And suck even more... this is why it's a hot topic. The idea of free buildings sucked. Now free building that just die 1 min after you die.... wtf<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please provide an argument of why Jucci?
And the topic was about Hydra viability and cost. There's already enough pages in here of reasons why it doesn't need to be restricted by Pres. Anything over 3 hydras per player can quickly become overkill.
It seems the community is hell-bent on nerfing Gorges back into being undesirable on a team. When that happens Marines are probably going to go back to losing every pub game because half the Alien team is no longer playing Gorgecraft. The only real escape I can see from this is a fundamental redesign of the Gorge lifeform.
Comments
I've killed gorges as they are putting down "desperation hydras". . .
They are at maybe 23% and get axed down immediately; it's not even an issue as you say
Gorges holding off large numbers of marines alone is; however, which is why I keep asking for buffs to advanced marines weapons
Shotgun is probably getting a boost soon and hopefully I won't have to sit through another 2 weeks of new Flamethrower Threads popping up on the forums threads either
-
Put a cooldown on hydra recycling, or a p.res cost (with partial recycling refund), and once marines do break through a gorge position they won't have to deal with it again 5 meters further down the corridor. (This way hydras remain a proper defensive structure, with the initial placement becoming more important since the gorge won't just be able to rebuild them elsewhere seconds later. You'll actually have a proper trade-off.
Mind you I do agree the flamethrower needs a boost, I just don't agree with any other weaponry needing a specific boost versus hydras and structures in general when you're not addressing the core issue.
This is the part that deeply concerns me, and it mirrors a phenomenon occurring all over these forums. You are now asking that changes be made which prevent the marine team from making a bad decision. You're saying that a bunch of marines pushed into an area which was of little benefit to them, took ages to do it and wasted a lot of men. They were then pushed back out of the area because they had failed to make the required fortifications, and are now at square -5. Just because its possible to make a strategic blunder doesn't mean the gorge is overpowered.
I for one gladly welcome more opportunities to make mistakes in this game.
An area which was of little benefit to marines? Say gorges lock down computer lab while marines are in FC and aliens in Sub, how is computer lab not of any benefit to the marines? If they can push into computer lab they can secure the RT and probably force an entry into sub hive. I also never implied gorges were OP, you are clearly not reading my posts properly. I don't even think hydras are OP. <b>I only said the mechanic of being able to endlessly, at no cost, and instantly replace lost hydras is broken. </b> It'd be no different than marines buying a 'pack' of 3 sentries at X p.res and being able to constantly recycle them for as long as the marines are alive. How would that ever result in proper gameplay? The marines could just turtle up with sentries, the same way gorges can with hydras currently.
Hydras being as strong as they are currently is fine, provided they actually remain STATIC structures, and are limited either through cost or through a cap. In their current implementation, you may as well call them semi-static. (Since you can essentially roll them back or forward endlessly as gorge) Some thought should go into the placement of hydras, and bad placement SHOULD be punished. (either through the p.res cost or some sort of replacement delay) BAD hydra placement would be a strategic blunder like pre 206, just the kind of thing you want to see possible more often.
An area which was of little benefit to marines? Say gorges lock down computer lab while marines are in FC and aliens in Sub, how is computer lab not of any benefit to the marines? If they can push into computer lab they can secure the RT and probably force an entry into sub hive. I also never implied gorges were OP, you are clearly not reading my posts properly. I don't even think hydras are OP. <b>I only said the mechanic of being able to endlessly, at no cost, and instantly replace lost hydras is broken. </b> It'd be no different than marines buying a 'pack' of 3 sentries at X p.res and being able to constantly recycle them for as long as the marines are alive. How would that ever result in proper gameplay? The marines could just turtle up with sentries, the same way gorges can with hydras currently.
Hydras being as strong as they are currently is fine, provided they actually remain STATIC structures, and are limited either through cost or through a cap. In their current implementation, you may as well call them semi-static. (Since you can essentially roll them back or forward endlessly as gorge) Some thought should go into the placement of hydras, and bad placement SHOULD be punished. (either through the p.res cost or some sort of replacement delay) BAD hydra placement would be a strategic blunder like pre 206, just the kind of thing you want to see possible more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, well, lets continue with your little scenario. Say marines are now moving on computer lab, but the team gorges have built their hydras at the immediate entrance to Sub Access and at Ventilation. Does their strategic mistake have any affect on the game?
I was going to leave that as an open question, but at the risk of you seeing what you want to see (which seems to be a trend throughout this thread) I will rather answer it myself. If the gorges don't take the initiative and block the marines off ahead of the res tower, the alien team is now down X number of players (typically 2 gorges) and are being pushed on a close, valuable location. With less available players, statistically they will lose that location.
And no, the gorges aren't simply going to realise the marines are taking computer lab, teleport to the front line, run into 5 marines and drop 3 hydras and heal them to full. Not going to happen. A gorge needs tos et up a fortification a good 30-60 seconds before a marine is even within sound range.
Gorges choose their locations to defend. Marines choose their locations to attack, that's the way it works. The nice thing about rapid hydra deployment and redeployment is that it makes the marines <b>choose </b>what they are going to take. Pre 206 (and it actually continues into 206 to a lesser degree) marines chose to take everything. They simply walked around the entire map capping everything. This is completely against the concept of map control, and goes against the strategy of natural selection.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges choose their locations to defend. Marines choose their locations to attack, that's the way it works. The nice thing about rapid hydra deployment and redeployment is that it makes the marines choose what they are going to take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that marines don't really have a choice in where to fight since they can't properly push on hydras before ARCs and GLS come in. I.e they are forced to go the side that has no hydra fortresses pretty much. There should be a reward to breaking up these hydra camps with a well coordinated marine push, even on low tech, and a delay before aliens can just set another one up around the corner. (And no, you don't need 30 - 60 seconds to build up 3 or even more hydras, go time it)
Also while its true that it can be hard to get into the position to even put down your hydras where it makes sense - its more a matter of teamwork and timing... Can you expect it to work, sending a solo marine in an area where you see constant pressure of aliens to build some stuff and not just die quickly?
"Quick! Kill the Gorge!"
"But there's a cyst over there."
But whatever, in the current patch its too good, and with the upcoming patch making hydras despawn after death or change of lifeform you will only see gorges if aliens do a bad job early game(taking about non-public) - to relieve some pressure getting players to the fading point - after that you can go back skulk or support your fades... and joing them 2-5min later.
Other than marines, aliens can play more defensive and do a relative bad job economy wise early to midgame... and still come out as winners.
<!--quoteo(post=1931652:date=Apr 29 2012, 07:33 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Apr 29 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The negative aspect to Jetpack is that their movement is not particularly reliable and your marines probably haven't had much experience manoeuvring them - Let alone flying while aiming. Because of this most (I say most to be reasonable, I actually think it's all) of the time the Jetpack marine is far less accurate and it's also why Jetpack marines are constantly getting killed by Skulks because they simply aren't able to take proper care of their surrounding or put a threat down when it approaches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a not only a temporary limitation but one based on the players. If your players are good (or have played enough to get practised) this will not be an issue at all. This is like saying you would prefer smg marines to GL marines because the GL marines will get themselves killed with their own nades by being retards while there is no such danger to the smg marines.
Anndddd my point comes out again: Requiring Pres is not the only way to solve this issue!!
Yes, as you mentioned you can have cooldowns<i> just like every other alien class uses? </i>
And with Hard caps non dependent on hives the only instance where you could put down another hydra is when you haven't reached your cap yet. No issue in that. But say that last hydra dies and BAM gorge can put down another as he currently can, well thats easily solvable by requiring a time after a hydra death before you can build another. (cooldowns) So once again, no need for Pres?
<!--quoteo(post=1931993:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 30 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras really shouldn't be able to be replaced/recycled instantly, which is why I think a p.res cost would be a much more effective system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pres has absolutely nothing to do with recycling your hydra? It would work with or without recycling? And i think its a great idea! keep the "combat engineer" able to make a decision of offensive or defensive hydras - <b>adaptable to the situation.</b>
Any issue that comes from lack of PRes here, like say taking a penalty for recycling the hydra, can be solved with yet another cooldown before placing it again. (you can even match / reflect whatever pres requirement / recycled % timing you wish in the cooldown.)
Edit: ok i see you mentioned cooldowns again in a later post. i jumped the gun responding before i finished reading the whole page.
P.s. i'm pushing the issue of cooldowns for replaced hydras as well as maturing mini cysts into cysts after X amount of time. idk what my pushing will accomplish tho.
1. The hydras goes mature, so it has less health
2. The hydras are limited to 3 at first
3. hydras are easy to kill, there tons of tactics to kill them, even simply shoot them
4. the gorge can rebuild hydras, but WHILE he place a hydra, he lost much energy, so he can :
a) heal the hydra to build it up = no energy left for new hydra
b) build another hydra but he has no energy left to build them up fast...so marines can kill him and the hydras easy.
It just make no sense, forcing the gorge to empty his pres just because of some useless hydras...
So a gorge waste his pres for 3 hydras and has nothing left anymore.
1. The hydras goes mature, so it has less health
2. The hydras are limited to 3 at first
3. hydras are easy to kill, there tons of tactics to kill them, even simply shoot them
4. the gorge can rebuild hydras, but WHILE he place a hydra, he lost much energy, so he can :
a) heal the hydra to build it up = no energy left for new hydra
b) build another hydra but he has no energy left to build them up fast...so marines can kill him and the hydras easy.
It just make no sense, forcing the gorge to empty his pres just because of some useless hydras...
So a gorge waste his pres for 3 hydras and has nothing left anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The immature hydra still has plenty of health.
2. Three is plenty to properly shutdown a corridor.
3. They have quite low health, but unfortunately they also have incredible accuracy.
4. I don't say this because I've never played Gorge, I go Gorge a dozen times a day. Only a bad Gorge will run himself into a position where he's out of energy. Hydra's cost 1/3rd of your energy and have a short build time, they automatically regenerate health and it requires 3 heals to get them up and running. Unless the marines immediately focus the new hydra (which if you place it in the back they can't) it will go up on it's own and they can't afford to just stand there getting attacked by hydra's as you drop/heal.
There are situations where you can't heal and build because there are too many marines, in that case you run away and rebuild the hydra's elsewhere or back where they were at no cost to you.
2. Three is plenty to properly shutdown a corridor.
3. They have quite low health, but unfortunately they also have incredible accuracy.
4. I don't say this because I've never played Gorge, I go Gorge a dozen times a day. Only a bad Gorge will run himself into a position where he's out of energy. Hydra's cost 1/3rd of your energy and have a short build time, they automatically regenerate health and it requires 3 heals to get them up and running. Unless the marines immediately focus the new hydra (which if you place it in the back they can't) it will go up on it's own and they can't afford to just stand there getting attacked by hydra's as you drop/heal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Define "plenty" of health, in what scenario? Against weapon1? weapons2? Grenades? Only mature ones really hold up well as an defense the gorge can heal up and hide behind. But that only works to a limited degree.
2. Only if they are mature and if the corridor is the only thing to worry about, but rooms usually have serveral entrances and building a "blockage wall" torwards one corridor leaves the gorge open from the back and the sides for flanking. Blocking off a corridor like this will make the hydras useless for defending anything of "worth" inside the room (like a hive). Because marines will just outflank your "corridor block".
3. Didn't you just argue that they have "plenty of health"? How can you now say they have low health and that's why they are so easy to kill? The fact is that a few well placed grandes completly negate any fortification that a gorge often spent minutes on building. And no you can't compare the costs, the current GL basicly has no downside compared to the original NS GL. You and other "economists" around here also keep ignoring that an GL isn't an "one use" ability. If a GL marine dies his weapon stays inside the round for other marines to pick up.
Same can't be said about the gorge/hydras/goo walls that GL marine just blew up before dying. But the gorge invested not only 10 P.res but also time and attention to building up these defenses and the gorges teammates spent time defending him there while he build up. That effort is now "lost", yes even time is an resource just like map control is one.
4. Sorry to say but your statement of "only a bad gorge runs out of energy" is a pretty ignorant one. Healing costs energy, building costs energy, spitting costs energy most of them an substantial ammount. You make it sound like it's some slow income resource that players havea big pool off. You ignore that the gorge has serveral dynamic duties at once healing hydras that are already getting shot or healing higher lifeforms. A gorge can't "chose" what to spent his energy on long term. He just manages in the moment depending on requirements.
As such any gorge will get constantly get in situations where his actions will be limited by energy alone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are situations where you can't heal and build because there are too many marines, in that case you run away and rebuild the hydra's elsewhere or back where they were at no cost to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what use is that tactic if the situation and the place is one of your teams hives? Fall back and build on the other side of the hive where marines don't pressure?
Why are people so keen on making the gorge as useless as possible?
Tbh i'm quite shocked about the backlash on the gorge changes, because personaly i love them all over the place. The game finnaly has gotten it's usefull "non combat role" back.
A role you can play without having to depend a ton on twitch skill to be successfull but still can add something positive to the overall team effort by playing support.
Let's also not forget that due to the removal of bilbebomb the gorges role has gotten way more defensive anyway. As such in an 1on1 situation where the gorge had time to setup defenses he should be able to hold out against 2 marines unless they play smart, majority of marines don't play smart tho. Nobody does suicide rushes on gorges, nobody focus fires on certain hydras/the gorge. They just just unload randomly on targets and complain about "###### not dying" after they ran out of ammo.
I think it's a step in the right direction, although perhaps it does need balancing out.
Buildings are build by the commander. Sure gorges should be able to speed buildings up by healing them, that is a good change. But their second ability should be something combat oriented.
Incombat umbra or the good ol web?
This would not only solve some of the server performance issues, but also the current free building issues by replacing them completely.
Sure, he would need to become somewhat more sturdy or mobile to compensate.
I don't know... get rid of spit, give him infestation vomit, slows down and reduces marine sight. Close-Mid range, similar to the flamethrower. Actually leaves infestation so he can vomit and slide to safety and his (Aug) ability would be umbra or some sort of empower ability.
It just doesn't feel right to have someone sit in the backrow in NS2... it worked in NS1, because only gorges were able to build things, but just because you want to keep with tradition doesn't mean it's a good idea.
...? I'm really confused why you would argue that mature ones hold up well and that Weapons upgrades are problematic for immature ones - Forgive me, but when do Marines get Weapon upgrades before the Gorges hydras mature?
Grenade Launchers? Like it's been mentioned several times, properly placed whips shut down Grenade Launchers to high heavens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Only if they are mature and if the corridor is the only thing to worry about, but rooms usually have serveral entrances and building a "blockage wall" torwards one corridor leaves the gorge open from the back and the sides for flanking. Blocking off a corridor like this will make the hydras useless for defending anything of "worth" inside the room (like a hive). Because marines will just outflank your "corridor block".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rooms have several entrances? Have you played the map pool lately? It boggles the mind how you could make that claim, two is the most common, three is rare and the only thing with four is cross roads/central drilling (the middle of maps). I suppose I can give you that before the recent additions to Mineshaft there were more three entrance rooms.
Again, I urge you to look at the maps there are two primary corridors that need shutting down in most of the maps.
Marines running past? Skulk takes care of it (I'd probably just healspray the guy to death) and they're already out of armour or they die in the attempt.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Didn't you just argue that they have "plenty of health"? How can you now say they have low health and that's why they are so easy to kill? The fact is that a few well placed grandes completly negate any fortification that a gorge often spent minutes on building. And no you can't compare the costs, the current GL basicly has no downside compared to the original NS GL. You and other "economists" around here also keep ignoring that an GL isn't an "one use" ability. If a GL marine dies his weapon stays inside the round for other marines to pick up.
Same can't be said about the gorge/hydras/goo walls that GL marine just blew up before dying. But the gorge invested not only 10 P.res but also time and attention to building up these defenses and the gorges teammates spent time defending him there while he build up. That effort is now "lost", yes even time is an resource just like map control is one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Hydra's have plenty of health to serve their purpose comparatively to non-offensive structures they have low-health. The statements are not contradictory. Minutes? I play a Gorge in 70% of my alien games, it takes 30 seconds to get up three Hydras and speaking of both extensive commander play and Gorge play a Whip will stop all GL play. I honestly don't know what game you're playing, do you just assume I don't play Gorge because I want it nerfed.
GL's are reusable? Sure, well they deteriorate after a while and they'll need reloading - But, if one of your players doesn't already have his own GL he can pick it up. The original Grenade Launcher wasn't constantly having it's grenades thrown back at your face.
Grenades are useful for killing bad lerks and skulks, they don't negate a proper hydra wall with a whip and they cost a considerable amount of TRes and PRes to get in play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Sorry to say but your statement of "only a bad gorge runs out of energy" is a pretty ignorant one. Healing costs energy, building costs energy, spitting costs energy most of them an substantial ammount. You make it sound like it's some slow income resource that players havea big pool off. You ignore that the gorge has serveral dynamic duties at once healing hydras that are already getting shot or healing higher lifeforms. A gorge can't "chose" what to spent his energy on long term. He just manages in the moment depending on requirements.
As such any gorge will get constantly get in situations where his actions will be limited by energy alone.
And what use is that tactic if the situation and the place is one of your teams hives? Fall back and build on the other side of the hive where marines don't pressure?
Why are people so keen on making the gorge as useless as possible?
Tbh i'm quite shocked about the backlash on the gorge changes, because personaly i love them all over the place. The game finnaly has gotten it's usefull "non combat role" back.
A role you can play without having to depend a ton on twitch skill to be successfull but still can add something positive to the overall team effort by playing support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it ignorant to assume that if a Gorge is in an unwinnable position he should run away? Maybe it is - Healing costs 1/10th Hydra's cost 1/3rd (rough estimates) - I mean if Hydra's cost as much as Cysts I would agree that there is no way a Gorge isn't going to run out of energy.
I don't even remember the original argument and I can't be bothered to look back, these things cost energy but other lifeforms is irrelevant it was about defending a static wall and replacing hydras. If you can't keep up the hydra's and healing then you need to move. I've played a gorge, it's not that hard.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's also not forget that due to the removal of bilbebomb the gorges role has gotten way more defensive anyway. As such in an 1on1 situation where the gorge had time to setup defenses he should be able to hold out against 2 marines unless they play smart, majority of marines don't play smart tho. Nobody does suicide rushes on gorges, nobody focus fires on certain hydras/the gorge. They just just unload randomly on targets and complain about "###### not dying" after they ran out of ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like the removal of bilebomb, but oh well. Should a Gorge be able to hold out against two marines - Sure? But, for how long.. suiciding running is not the be all end all of killing Gorges some Corridors are tight some paths are long not every Gorge puts hydra's in an odd position and stand behind them leaving a 270 degree angle of attack. And what happens with two Gorges or two Hives - Suddenly it takes the entire team with ARC's to break (GLs < Whip).
But, let's say the marines are like "All right this isn't breakable let's go elsewhere" now the Gorge(s) can move forward with Hydra's creating even more problems for you.
"Surely then the Marines will push forward on the empty path(s) and the aliens will suffer" Maybe they get killed by Skulks onwards, maybe another Gorge puts down 3 Hydra's in there way and slows them down.
Don't understand why as a Gorge you would want this cheese, you should be accountable for losing Hydra's en masse. (I do feel 5PRes cost for Hydra's and 0PRes for Cysts would give Gorges a lot more freedom to position hydra's properly without being able to exploit the mechanic to push aggressively.
Is it Static Defense or Mobile Offense?
Edit : As an aside, if you truly do feel Energy makes Gorges balanced - What happens when Shift hives are introduced?
Way to throw out your argument on the last line :)
It's the second to last and a valid point, UWE blur the line between what a Hydra is supposed to do when they allow you to slow (or fast if you meet no resistance) push them into Enemy Structures.
If you read the original post, the only reason I made this thread is because UWE stated that. I obviously don't think it's the solution to the issue, I rarely see people planting Hydra's and then switching lifeforms.
On second thought, that would incentivize gorges hiding in the hive so they don't lose their precious walls of lame, so... maybe not.
Please provide an argument of why Jucci?
And the topic was about Hydra viability and cost.
There's already enough pages in here of reasons why it doesn't need to be restricted by Pres.
Anything over 3 hydras per player can quickly become overkill.