Free defense structures have no place in an RTS where everything else costs precious resources.
The only way I could see this work would be if marines get a free SG per marine multiplied by how many techpoints they have. They may also need a free long-range AoE welder...
On a serious note:
<!--quoteo(post=1931685:date=Apr 29 2012, 08:04 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 29 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Also Gorges need to be able to refund or transport Hydras."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1931666:date=Apr 29 2012, 04:19 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Apr 29 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every building marines have to deal with, needs to cost some res, free building spam is unbalanced in an economy based game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At first i thought this was a good point. But then I realized that the gorge isn't dropping harvesters or "buildings" like a shell / armory, <b>he is using his weapons/abilities.</b> Think of how a marine does not have to remove himself from the frontlines when <i>HE </i>builds a static defensive "building"(turret)! A better analogy to draw would be a marine with only a welder tool in hand for repairing, <b>much like the position a gorge is in! </b>
He is an indirect player as the "combat engineer" a lot of the time. (encouraged by the lack of real viability with gorge spit, and his lack of maneuverability) He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras? I haven't heard a clear reason yet <b>why</b> it is the only method? I get that he dies less, and thus he accrues Pres (much unlike those turrets) that he just ends up with an abundance. But if he evolves he will lose his work/impact that he made with his gorge - unlike a skulk which can just sit in base.
Theres so many ways to solve that abundance, from slowing his income rate, capping it, stopping it altogether, to more creative ways - BUT this is only if you wish to recreate that "permagorge" situation that you had before? That makes two classes on Aliens locked in. (unnecessarily) Personally i like the idea of dropping into his role when needed, and then dropping out if needed. <b>Then make his impact / contributions so needed and useful that evolving was a choice of luxury / lack of need for gorge anymore in the round.</b> So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not. So Why is it the only solution people are coming up with is "Revert the changes!" ? His abilities costing Pres created issues if you didn't know. So those saying this doesn't follow the "core" of NS2, i'd have to disagree with you given the above and considering the asymmetric play styles. It fits well enough imo.
The only issues with the current implementation are obviously going to be addressed, as evidenced by the promises already made by the devs. I expect to see the cost of gorge to change, as well as other balance changes down the road to accommodate.
I like the idea that gorge 'stores' the hydras he can drop and that storage grows slowly.. so can only drop 1 at start, and have to wait I don'tknow, 30 seconds per hydra? 1 minute per hydra?
It should be comparable to how fast gorges used to drop hydras back when they were 10 pres each
gives more emphasis on protecting those hydras instead of just redploying and respamming them.
also means marines can take them out and gorges can't quick refill them again.
I know some people had suggested the Gorge be treated like a mobile deployment fortress type thing where he basically rolls into an area and sets up camp with Hydras he was carrying on his person. I think I read one suggestion where the idea was the Gorge would use almost a combat-esque upgrade system, where you could invest resources into upgrading the number of Hydras you're carrying/can drop, speed at which they build, etc.
Basically the Gorge would play like a class unto itself rather than just another lifeform on the Alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=1931683:date=Apr 30 2012, 11:24 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 30 2012, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The hardcap on cysts is a really messy system due to chains getting broken when gorge recycles etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is currently the most annoying aspect of the new system; hitting your cap, and losing your first cyst/hydra/clog. Not so bad if its a hydra or clog, but when the cyst network breaks down you're constantly pestering your commander to fix it. You feel hamstrung, like you can't progress your cyst network at the expense of the network you built to get to the room you're currently in.
Off the top of my head, this could be fixed by allowing mini-cysts to mature over time into full cysts, thus taking them off your counter. The 'free' system was amusing for the first hour I played it, then realised how bad it was when two friends and I went gorge and completely blocked Marines from leaving Flight Control. Summit reception was impassable, and computer labs was a death trap. Free hydras with basically no cooldown are just too strong.
I was the team gorge of NS1. I try to be the team gorge of NS2, but short of being a medic stuck to the ass of an Onos, I feel pretty useless past mid-game. I'd trade clogs for webbing any day.
<!--quoteo(post=1931740:date=Apr 30 2012, 01:55 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 30 2012, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there's an opportunity cost associated with pretty much everything in the game, and the cost for hydras, right now, is too low. They aren't free -- they cost energy to drop and cost time.
However, marines generally pay a much, much higher price to remove a hydra than the gorge pays to build it. A marine will have to expose himself on the frontline, waste ammo, health, and time just to take it down. Then he must run back to an armory (or eat the comm's resources) to return only to find even more hydras and clogs to contend with.
I've yet to see an alien team all go gorge, but I'd wager they'd be undefeatable with a bit of coordination.
<!--quoteo(post=1931740:date=Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At first i thought this was a good point. But then I realized that the gorge isn't dropping harvesters or "buildings" like a shell / armory, <b>he is using his weapons/abilities.</b> Think of how a marine does not have to remove himself from the frontlines when <i>HE </i>builds a static defensive "building"(turret)! A better analogy to draw would be a marine with only a welder tool in hand for repairing, <b>much like the position a gorge is in! </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're comparing the Gorge making his own Turrets for free to a Marine setting up turrets built by his commander for 10 TRes? The fact is, is that Turrets/Whips/Hydras are Static Defense - Two of them cost 10 Res, have Build times require Cysts/Power and a few days ago so did the Hydra. Why make a double standard for static defence?
The Gorge can be compared to a Marine helping build a Marine Structure, that's a Gorge helping build an alien structure - Healspray.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is an indirect player as the "combat engineer" a lot of the time. (encouraged by the lack of real viability with gorge spit, and his lack of maneuverability) He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras? I haven't heard a clear reason yet <b>why</b> it is the only method? I get that he dies less, and thus he accrues Pres (much unlike those turrets) that he just ends up with an abundance. But if he evolves he will lose his work/impact that he made with his gorge - unlike a skulk which can just sit in base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is suggesting it is the only method, the concern is, is that this is a questionable development path. You could make Gorge more or less 'balanced', but at what cost(That's a metaphorical cost to game design, not a PRes cost).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres so many ways to solve that abundance, from slowing his income rate, capping it, stopping it altogether, to more creative ways - BUT this is only if you wish to recreate that "permagorge" situation that you had before? That makes two classes on Aliens locked in. (unnecessarily) Personally i like the idea of dropping into his role when needed, and then dropping out if needed. <b>Then make his impact / contributions so needed and useful that evolving was a choice of luxury / lack of need for gorge anymore in the round.</b> So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not. So Why is it the only solution people are coming up with is "Revert the changes!" ? His abilities costing Pres created issues if you didn't know. So those saying this doesn't follow the "core" of NS2, i'd have to disagree with you given the above and considering the asymmetric play styles. It fits well enough imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's so many band-aid fixes, quite right. They could give Marines free weapons and then balance the entire game around it so it's fair, but why would they want to - Who wants to play a game with mechanics like that? Nobody wants to come up against Free Hydras, I feel sad as a Gorge using Free Hydras.
There were issues with the previous Gorge, it wasn't really worth playing. But, what UWE did was this :
- Make Gorge more viable by changing the building system to greatly benefit from one. - Make Gorge have free buildings.
Why wouldn't they do a incremental change and see how Gorge plays with the new building system before giving out free buildings?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only issues with the current implementation are obviously going to be addressed, as evidenced by the promises already made by the devs. I expect to see the cost of gorge to change, as well as other balance changes down the road to accommodate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, so this change not only requires cost changes to the Gorge which change the game drastically - But, it also requires down the road changes? How is it you think that's a good idea?
No one demanded free structures, people wanted the gorge to be viable, but this wasn't the necessary course of action. The gorge could have been viable just fine even if his stuff cost P.res. Instead UWE: - Nerfed healspray - Nerfed bellyslide - Took away bilebomb
Only then to give them - Utility in 'speedbuilding' khamm structures (actually great, but needs some finetuning, I would argue the trade-off isnt big enough yet, i.e you'd usually still want an extra skulk over the gorge) - Clogs (which are great fun but useless at augmentation) - Free hydras (also fun but create a whole new array of issues) - Mini-cysts (fun but don't do the job properly and cause issues in the current format just as well)
Now I don't mind them trying out new things in the beta, I really don't, and I am pleased they are at least listening to the primary concern but I am convinced the free structures was a bad move. <b>It's as if marines bought 3 mines once, and got to replace them everytime they get destroyed, or everytime they move up, for as long as they remained alive.</b> Would people be okay with that? I doubt it. The 10 p.res for the gorge is what you pay to be able to heal and support other players (this is why I advocate clogs becoming free and non-augmented), it's certainly not a p.res cost that represents you also being able to put down 3 hydras, endlessly.
There's a real problem with gorges just being able to turtle up with hydras, i.e they don't have to think about their placement, and there is NO cost to losing them. Marines can be delayed by free structures, which when finally destroyed can just get replaced in a matter of seconds. Running past the hydras to kill the gorge is the only sensible thing to do, but a sure deathwish.
If hydras went back to costing p.res, and recycle only gave back half of your p.res, or 2/3rd, they'd actually have to think about hydra placement again, marines would actually have a point in killing them and you wouldn't have to hardcap them (which is probably bad design anyway) Not to mention gorge players wouldn't sit on a fat stack of 100 res lategame, being forced to go onos since there is nothing else they can do with it anyway.
There are four issues brought up when reverting the cost change to Hydras:
<ol type='1'><li>The cost would need to at the least be cut in half from the previous cost (3-5 res).</li><li>There would be no limitation on remaining Gorge after dropping them (you are after all investing res into it).</li><li>The hard limit would need to be removed (res would act as a soft limit).</li><li>The Hydras either need to be refundable, or in the absence of a refund, transportable.</li></ol>
The last point especially needs to be true, because people are not going to want to invest resources in a static defensive structure that may never see use when they could just use it on lifeforms. I'd go so far as to say you would never see a Hydra ever again in competitive play if they were unmovable but cost resources. Like I pointed out earlier, if you play any game that involves static defenses (SC2 is a good example), any decent player will tell you that you want to avoid investing in a static defense at all costs because you are investing resources in an immobile structure that may not see use for the majority of the game, rather than a mobile unit or upgrade that will help you wherever you need it.
I'm not sure that last point is especially true. Static defences are a kind of tradeoff between strong defence and flexibility/utility elsewhere. If you give them both, you exacerbate all the misgivings surrounding static defences in the first place (that they're not fun to play against etc. etc.). You're right that any decent player will avoid static defences when possible but that isn't to say that they'll never use them - a static defence in the base is often a wise choice. Hydras should be designed around a similar philosophy where they should be avoided where possible but are necessary in certain important situations.
Another important aspect about static defences is how they are placed. When they are static, it becomes super important to choose a location well. A static defence placed too defensively has little impact on the rest of the game but a static defence placed too offensively is vulnerable and risky. Removing this aspect of placement leads to two undesirable scenarios. Either hydras can be placed super-offensively with low-risk, high-reward outcomes (the gorge could die if he's dumb) or they can be crept forward in a 0-risk, eventual high-reward outcome. Both suck.
There absolutely, unequivocably, <i>has</i> to be a refund cost if the gorge is ever to be a serious class. I am in favour of *some* refundability because I like the thought of less hydras overall but the amount needs to be significantly small.
P.S. i'm in favour of hydras costing resources obviously
I think a 70 % return if you eat the. Kinda like marine buildings. It would also be cool to drop hydra's then need a fade on the feild, and eat your hydra's and there you go!
<!--quoteo(post=1931813:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:28 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 30 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure that last point is especially true. Static defences are a kind of tradeoff between strong defence and flexibility/utility elsewhere. If you give them both, you exacerbate all the misgivings surrounding static defences in the first place (that they're not fun to play against etc. etc.). You're right that any decent player will avoid static defences when possible but that isn't to say that they'll never use them - a static defence in the base is often a wise choice. Hydras should be designed around a similar philosophy where they should be avoided where possible but are necessary in certain important situations.
Another important aspect about static defences is how they are placed. When they are static, it becomes super important to choose a location well. A static defence placed too defensively has little impact on the rest of the game but a static defence placed too offensively is vulnerable and risky. Removing this aspect of placement leads to two undesirable scenarios. Either hydras can be placed super-offensively with low-risk, high-reward outcomes (the gorge could die if he's dumb) or they can be crept forward in a 0-risk, eventual high-reward outcome. Both suck.
There absolutely, unequivocably, <i>has</i> to be a refund cost if the gorge is ever to be a serious class. I am in favour of *some* refundability because I like the thought of less hydras overall but the amount needs to be significantly small.
P.S. i'm in favour of hydras costing resources obviously<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm still against them costing anything as I really like the current state of the game where PRes only goes towards what lifeform you want
Sure I could go gorge for 2 minutes, help build a Hive, and drop my 6 hydras, but often I don't because getting to Onos / Fade that much faster has a BIG impact on the game <i>(Especially when the game has been very close up till that point. . . you simply can't wait for 10 more)</i>
I'm much more annoyed at how many Marines it takes to break a 3 hydra + 1 whip choke and that changes should come to the marine arsenal first so that we can balance the inevitable encounter
If the next patch rolls and hydras now cost 3-5 PRes with no other changes you're going to see 90% of the games go to stale Grenade Launcher rushes
<!--quoteo(post=1931845:date=Apr 30 2012, 11:08 AM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Apr 30 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still against them costing anything as I really like the current state of the game where PRes only goes towards what lifeform you want
Sure I could go gorge for 2 minutes, help build a Hive, and drop my 6 hydras, but often I don't because getting to Onos / Fade that much faster has a BIG impact on the game <i>(Especially when the game has been very close up till that point. . . you simply can't wait for 10 more)</i>
I'm much more annoyed at how many Marines it takes to break a 3 hydra + 1 whip choke and that changes should come to the marine arsenal first so that we can balance the inevitable encounter
If the next patch rolls and hydras now cost 3-5 PRes with no other changes you're going to see 90% of the games go to stale Grenade Launcher rushes
<i>I can pretty well guarantee it</i>
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I got the feeling that people are not talking about how weak hydras are but how easy they are to take down with gl's. I would say 10res is fine, they are quite useful when well palced.
The problem is with how many grenade launchers you see in the public games. It's hard for marines to brake Hydra walls in public before the gl's come along while there are gorges healing them or supported by skulks. In the competitive matches hydras do very good against marine it slows their movement and forces them to be vulnerable if they try to attack it. Even if marines use gl's they are still halting the marine movement.
In ns1 you rarly saw gl's, this made it possible for gorges to stop marine pushes with mass oc's/dc's in a long game. However in ns2 Gl's are so accessable that marines just spam grenades to take down these defenses. This gives the feeling that hydras are useless and are not worth making.
There is also the thing with arcs, they have so much burst damage that gorges have no time to migrade the damage. If the arc rate of fire and damage would be halved it would keep it's damage output but gorges would be able to heal between the shots. Of course when the arcs hit a critical number this won't be possible anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1931845:date=May 1 2012, 03:08 AM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ May 1 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm much more annoyed at how many Marines it takes to break a 3 hydra + 1 whip choke and that changes should come to the marine arsenal first so that we can balance the inevitable encounter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They already have ARCS though, and we already see a ton of ARC spam because its the only godahm way marines now have to deal with whip and hydra spam. The ammount of marines present just happens to be the ammount of people who decided to guard the ARCs and are there to counter your team, not the static defence. The problem is not a lack of firepower, but the insane dps that hitscan hydras put out. Free hydras are definitely fun because they're clearly overpowered and mean a ######load of kills and map control. This doesn't mean they're balanced or conducive to mutually fun, good gameflow.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the next patch rolls and hydras now cost 3-5 PRes with no other changes you're going to see 90% of the games go to stale Grenade Launcher rushes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why this connection?? Can you explain in more detail how you came to this conclusion? Regardless of whether or not hydras cost pres, marines will need to kill the death gardens regardless in order to kill the hive in order to win the game. Back when hydras cost even more (10res), we didn't see 90% of the game go stale grenade launcher rush. Infact the correlation between hydra spammability and grenade launcher proliferation should be the exact opposite. Are you saying that free hydras with hitscan are discouraging grenade launcher rushes and why so?
The problem isn't necessarily that hydras are free. Its that they are currently ridiculously effective for their "price" and aliens get them too early. A gorge early game can spam the truck out of an area with hydras, and marines have nothing to counter it. Hydras themselves are too strong now. I'd rather have free but weak static defenses.. than strong but priced static defenses. Static defenses should be a hindrance and not outright area denial killing machines (turrets can also be a problem). It should support the player, but be easily taken out without player support. I really like how mines and whips behave now. They are weak, but are effective enough especially with player support. Without player support they are easily taken out. 3 Hydras can take out a marine player with no GL even without gorge support. With a GL a marine has better chance, but by then the gorge can quickly spam 6+ hydras and even with a GL its a difficult task. Add gorge support and forget it. Bottom line, static defenses SHOULD be weak, and I don't want to spend too much pres on them. I don't want to place too much importance on them.
Heres what needs to be done: -Lower the hydra cap increase per hive (ex: 3 to start, +1 per hive) -Add Hydras after augmentation (gorges have clog and cyst to start...gives marines time to get GL...makes whip placement a bit more important throughout the game) -Increase gorge costs, or have players spend pres for abilities such as gorge's building ability, leap, blink, ect... (taboo subject apparently) -Lower Hydra HP, especially when newly deployed. A new hydra should die with one grenade. Mature can take a few as they do now.
I do think there are not enough PRES sinks for alien early on, but I don't think static defenses should act as the de-facto pres sink. That is placing WAY too much importance on static defenses imo. Alien higher lifeforms are also too effective for their pres cost, but thats for another thread....
<!--quoteo(post=1931764:date=Apr 30 2012, 04:38 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 30 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>It's as if marines bought 3 mines once, and got to replace them every time they get destroyed, or every time they move up, for as long as they remained alive.</b> Would people be okay with that? I doubt it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually wouldn't mind this at all and think its a good idea. Mines are tame and balanced early game, but are pretty much worthless mid-late game. However if marines could redeploy them it would give them use throughout the game. Marines would still have to repurchase them every time they die, so it only rewards players for staying alive (is this a bad thing?). Its annoying spending 15 res just to see a fade trigger them all away. Once I see fades, I don't bother with mines. It really wouldn't make them more effective early game, and might even tone it down since marine side can't buy spam them as much.
to my understanding, currently all the gorges can build from their own personal 'cap' of hydras and other structures.
how about this: cap hydras at a set team number. so even if EVERYone goes gorge, theres still a global team cap that they can't go over, that increases per hive. otherwise, leave it all the same with just that change.
this way you dont have late-game gorges with 7+ hydras to place apiece covering the entire map.
on top of that, the idea UWE mentioned for later of buildings dying if the gorge changes lifeforms would be a great idea. it means no 'going gorge, laying hydras, then going onos'.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1931753:date=Apr 30 2012, 12:16 AM:name=ReZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ReZ @ Apr 30 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Off the top of my head, this could be fixed by allowing mini-cysts to mature over time into full cysts, thus taking them off your counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea! <!--quoteo(post=1931754:date=Apr 30 2012, 12:19 AM:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen @ Apr 30 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, marines generally pay a much, much higher price to remove a hydra than the gorge pays to build it. A marine will have to expose himself on the frontline, waste ammo, health, and time just to take it down. Then he must run back to an armory (or eat the comm's resources) to return only to find even more hydras and clogs to contend with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds just like the same situation for turrets in a base?
<!--quoteo(post=1931755:date=Apr 30 2012, 12:44 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Apr 30 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, you're comparing the Gorge making his own Turrets for free to a Marine setting up turrets built by his commander for 10 TRes? The fact is, is that Turrets/Whips/Hydras are Static Defense - Two of them cost 10 Res, have Build times require Cysts/Power and a few days ago so did the Hydra. Why make a double standard for static defence?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the double standard?? Its not unfair considering that turrets don't require a marine to be weaponless, like hydras do for gorges, therefore i see it as asymmetry instead.
<i>"The Gorge can be compared to a Marine helping build a Marine Structure, that's a Gorge helping build an alien structure - Healspray."</i> I don't think you were understanding my analogy - The marine can wield a LMG, pistol, FT, GL, and eventually an exosuit, <u>AND can weld! </u>Can you say the gorge gets the same treatment or ever will? Didn't think so. There is a trade off occurring that i do not think people are seeing! If you evolve to be a fighting class, you will lose those static structures / that role.
<i>"Nobody is suggesting it is the only method, the concern is, is that this is a questionable development path. You could make Gorge more or less 'balanced', but at what cost(That's a metaphorical cost to game design, not a PRes cost)."</i> The only suggestion i've seen thus far,<i> save for the one comment before me here</i>, is to revert the changes instead of adjusting them /working with them. He will be balanced just fine with time, i am sure.
<i>"They could give Marines free weapons and then balance the entire game around it so it's fair, but why would they want to - Who wants to play a game with mechanics like that? Nobody wants to come up against Free Hydras, I feel sad as a Gorge using Free Hydras.
There were issues with the previous Gorge, it wasn't really worth playing. But, what UWE did was this :
- Make Gorge more viable by changing the building system to greatly benefit from one. - Make Gorge have free buildings.
Why wouldn't they do a incremental change and see how Gorge plays with the new building system before giving out free buildings? Haha, so this change not only requires cost changes to the Gorge which change the game drastically - But, it also requires down the road changes? How is it you think that's a good idea?
CHANGE FOR THE SAKE OF CHANGE - UWE."</i>
You are stretching with this analogy, obviously, to make a point, but it is not an accurate one. <i>Marines have free weapons? </i>LMG, buddy. So does every alien class, <u>now</u>. But like both teams, there are upgrades at the cost of Tres. There were more issues to the previous gorge than just viability. Incremental change to say, one ability, would still allow some of those issues to exist. Yes it requires changes down the road. *What feature so far in this development, Alpha or Beta stages, have ever worked flawlessly without adjustment/changes from the first time implemented?* Hrrmmmm?? You are a tester, believe it or not, and this is a <b>work in progress.</b> I know you're new so you may not be used to this situation, but each patch can bring a completely different dynamic/game each week! Some things, like infestation, took dozens and dozens of patches to get right - all the while people screaming about it and asking for it to be removed yada yada. (FT got it the worst) And finally, do you really believe UWE makes changes for the sake of changes? Or could it be that you just don't see the big picture? No offense but making claims like that just shows that you aren't considering everything at hand, here. And thats okay, just sit tight and pretty soon everything will gel. The best thing you can do is come up with great ideas /solutions to help the devs down the road with their adjustments - sometimes the community offers far better ideas than what gets "kicked around the office" and it can get implemented.
(Free gorge abilities WAS argued for in multiple forums, Xarius, believe it or not.)
I may well of only been playing since 195, but I've seen nothing gel together in that time. If anything balance has got progressively worse - But, unfortunately I don't subscribe to "Don't worry developers will fix it... eventually" philosophies.
I appreciate that you think that the developers will make it work. I only regret that I wasn't reading the forums when people suggested the free building idea so I could of argued against it then.
As far as your comments on Turrets/Gorges go I can't really say I agree with it - But, you don't seem to want to believe anything other than Gorge's are terrible so..
Gorges fortify positions, that's what their role (currently) is. Marines can do it far easier and far more effectively.
If you want to move into or through a fortified position with X number of defenders, you will need 1.5X number of attackers, or 2X or 3X ect, depending on how fortified the area is. You simply need to determine whether the superior short term cost will be worth the long term benefit. Deciding on the correct action to take is aided by strategic thinking, and often hindered by considering what the scoreboard says.
Just as the skulk enforces a certain amount of "fortification" across a large area which he defends and attacks, so the gorge applies a far larger amount of fortification in a much smaller area. Consider the strategic benefit of mobility, and that the skulk provides his services without personal cost. I think you will find that the gorge balanced just fine at the moment, the only problem being when a player can provide the static defences of a gorge, while playing another life form. This has obviously been identified however, and I'm sure will be addressed.
Balance is not going to be "focused" on until we are feature complete. In the meantime, glaring balance issues like aliens winning 90% of the time will be attempted to be addressed patch by patch, but expect the rest to come later. Makes no sense balancing a game when all it's features are not in yet, hope you understand.
And its okay if you don't agree with what i said, this is a place for <i>discussion</i>. :) Its what i love most about these forums, having logical arguments being discussed back and forth, often times to find a solution to a problem. Please don't feel discouraged by my arguments - in fact, they are an invitation to a rebuttal<i> if you can / want to.</i>
Just the way it will be addressed will make gorges disappear again(in competitive play)... perma gorges are hurting your team - you <u>dont</u> want it.
(at least as long as you dont get dominated by marines, then you might consider some hydra spam, so you can shift forces a bit... 3 well placed hydras and a gorge + a skulk every now and then are a pain in the ass for rines... hydras dont even have to kill any marine - its enough to weaken them a tiny bit for skulks)
I disagree with the whole Aliens spending resources on abilities as a blanket feature to Aliens. On the Gorge however I wouldn't mind seeing it for the sole reason that if it was handled correctly, the Gorge could be turned into a really unique lifeform that could essentially keep evolving all these different aspects of itself. I think something like that works nicely for the Gorge, because he is unique among all the Alien lifeforms in that his use to the team comes from what he builds (and to a lesser extent being a heal bot).
(For anyone who plays EVE, I'm thinking of something like T3 Cruisers. Or another example for anyone who's ever played Island Defense on WC3/SC2, a class like the Demonologist/Baneling/Morphling)
<!--quoteo(post=1931937:date=Apr 30 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 30 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are some seriously worrying analogies being used in this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying its worrying that Obama isn't going to be president for much longer.
You guys kind of ignored the biggest reason as to why them costing p.res is important: i.e it prevents a gorge from just instantly putting down a new hydra the moment one is about to die or gets killed. This truly is the BIGGEST issue with free hydras and free recycling currently. It's a waste of ammo for marines to shoot hydras, because even if they get to kill one, a new one will be set up in a matter of seconds. This only leaves you with a few choices, either you rush the gorge with a couple of marines (some marines will definitely die in the process), you wait for GLS or you wait for ARCs. This makes gameplay vs double, triple or more gorges incredibly unsatisfying, since they can effectively hold off a large number of marines early on.
Hydras really shouldn't be able to be replaced/recycled instantly, which is why I think a p.res cost would be a much more effective system. Either that or they will have to come up with some sort of cooldown system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Add Hydras after augmentation (gorges have clog and cyst to start...gives marines time to get GL...makes whip placement a bit more important throughout the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This would be the quickest way to make gorges incredibly boring before augmentation ships. Seriously, no one wants to gorge just to put down some cysts and clogs or do the occasional asthma-healing. I would like to argue clogs should be made augment-free regardless, they're really not tier 2 worthy. They're a fun and novel addition to the gorge, but with augmentation they come out too late to have any significant impact on gameplay.
Comments
The only way I could see this work would be if marines get a free SG per marine multiplied by how many techpoints they have. They may also need a free long-range AoE welder...
On a serious note:
<!--quoteo(post=1931685:date=Apr 29 2012, 08:04 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 29 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Also Gorges need to be able to refund or transport Hydras."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES! Great idea!
At first i thought this was a good point.
But then I realized that the gorge isn't dropping harvesters or "buildings" like a shell / armory, <b>he is using his weapons/abilities.</b> Think of how a marine does not have to remove himself from the frontlines when <i>HE </i>builds a static defensive "building"(turret)! A better analogy to draw would be a marine with only a welder tool in hand for repairing, <b>much like the position a gorge is in! </b>
He is an indirect player as the "combat engineer" a lot of the time. (encouraged by the lack of real viability with gorge spit, and his lack of maneuverability) He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras? I haven't heard a clear reason yet <b>why</b> it is the only method? I get that he dies less, and thus he accrues Pres (much unlike those turrets) that he just ends up with an abundance. But if he evolves he will lose his work/impact that he made with his gorge - unlike a skulk which can just sit in base.
Theres so many ways to solve that abundance, from slowing his income rate, capping it, stopping it altogether, to more creative ways - BUT this is only if you wish to recreate that "permagorge" situation that you had before? That makes two classes on Aliens locked in. (unnecessarily) Personally i like the idea of dropping into his role when needed, and then dropping out if needed. <b>Then make his impact / contributions so needed and useful that evolving was a choice of luxury / lack of need for gorge anymore in the round.</b> So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not. So Why is it the only solution people are coming up with is "Revert the changes!" ? His abilities costing Pres created issues if you didn't know.
So those saying this doesn't follow the "core" of NS2, i'd have to disagree with you given the above and considering the asymmetric play styles. It fits well enough imo.
The only issues with the current implementation are obviously going to be addressed, as evidenced by the promises already made by the devs. I expect to see the cost of gorge to change, as well as other balance changes down the road to accommodate.
It should be comparable to how fast gorges used to drop hydras back when they were 10 pres each
gives more emphasis on protecting those hydras instead of just redploying and respamming them.
also means marines can take them out and gorges can't quick refill them again.
Basically the Gorge would play like a class unto itself rather than just another lifeform on the Alien team.
This is currently the most annoying aspect of the new system; hitting your cap, and losing your first cyst/hydra/clog. Not so bad if its a hydra or clog, but when the cyst network breaks down you're constantly pestering your commander to fix it. You feel hamstrung, like you can't progress your cyst network at the expense of the network you built to get to the room you're currently in.
Off the top of my head, this could be fixed by allowing mini-cysts to mature over time into full cysts, thus taking them off your counter. The 'free' system was amusing for the first hour I played it, then realised how bad it was when two friends and I went gorge and completely blocked Marines from leaving Flight Control. Summit reception was impassable, and computer labs was a death trap. Free hydras with basically no cooldown are just too strong.
I was the team gorge of NS1. I try to be the team gorge of NS2, but short of being a medic stuck to the ass of an Onos, I feel pretty useless past mid-game. I'd trade clogs for webbing any day.
Because there's an opportunity cost associated with pretty much everything in the game, and the cost for hydras, right now, is too low. They aren't free -- they cost energy to drop and cost time.
However, marines generally pay a much, much higher price to remove a hydra than the gorge pays to build it. A marine will have to expose himself on the frontline, waste ammo, health, and time just to take it down. Then he must run back to an armory (or eat the comm's resources) to return only to find even more hydras and clogs to contend with.
I've yet to see an alien team all go gorge, but I'd wager they'd be undefeatable with a bit of coordination.
But then I realized that the gorge isn't dropping harvesters or "buildings" like a shell / armory, <b>he is using his weapons/abilities.</b> Think of how a marine does not have to remove himself from the frontlines when <i>HE </i>builds a static defensive "building"(turret)! A better analogy to draw would be a marine with only a welder tool in hand for repairing, <b>much like the position a gorge is in! </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're comparing the Gorge making his own Turrets for free to a Marine setting up turrets built by his commander for 10 TRes? The fact is, is that Turrets/Whips/Hydras are Static Defense - Two of them cost 10 Res, have Build times require Cysts/Power and a few days ago so did the Hydra. Why make a double standard for static defence?
The Gorge can be compared to a Marine helping build a Marine Structure, that's a Gorge helping build an alien structure - Healspray.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is an indirect player as the "combat engineer" a lot of the time. (encouraged by the lack of real viability with gorge spit, and his lack of maneuverability) He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras? I haven't heard a clear reason yet <b>why</b> it is the only method? I get that he dies less, and thus he accrues Pres (much unlike those turrets) that he just ends up with an abundance. But if he evolves he will lose his work/impact that he made with his gorge - unlike a skulk which can just sit in base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is suggesting it is the only method, the concern is, is that this is a questionable development path. You could make Gorge more or less 'balanced', but at what cost(That's a metaphorical cost to game design, not a PRes cost).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres so many ways to solve that abundance, from slowing his income rate, capping it, stopping it altogether, to more creative ways - BUT this is only if you wish to recreate that "permagorge" situation that you had before? That makes two classes on Aliens locked in. (unnecessarily) Personally i like the idea of dropping into his role when needed, and then dropping out if needed. <b>Then make his impact / contributions so needed and useful that evolving was a choice of luxury / lack of need for gorge anymore in the round.</b> So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not. So Why is it the only solution people are coming up with is "Revert the changes!" ? His abilities costing Pres created issues if you didn't know.
So those saying this doesn't follow the "core" of NS2, i'd have to disagree with you given the above and considering the asymmetric play styles. It fits well enough imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's so many band-aid fixes, quite right. They could give Marines free weapons and then balance the entire game around it so it's fair, but why would they want to - Who wants to play a game with mechanics like that? Nobody wants to come up against Free Hydras, I feel sad as a Gorge using Free Hydras.
There were issues with the previous Gorge, it wasn't really worth playing. But, what UWE did was this :
- Make Gorge more viable by changing the building system to greatly benefit from one.
- Make Gorge have free buildings.
Why wouldn't they do a incremental change and see how Gorge plays with the new building system before giving out free buildings?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only issues with the current implementation are obviously going to be addressed, as evidenced by the promises already made by the devs. I expect to see the cost of gorge to change, as well as other balance changes down the road to accommodate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, so this change not only requires cost changes to the Gorge which change the game drastically - But, it also requires down the road changes? How is it you think that's a good idea?
CHANGE FOR THE SAKE OF CHANGE - UWE.
Change after 90% of the community demands it.
The game is already hindered with Performance faults left right and centre which seem to be the last thing that will be fixed.
Now its possible to drop 40 towers at the start of the game and make performance even worse from the start of the game.
- Nerfed healspray
- Nerfed bellyslide
- Took away bilebomb
Only then to give them
- Utility in 'speedbuilding' khamm structures (actually great, but needs some finetuning, I would argue the trade-off isnt big enough yet, i.e you'd usually still want an extra skulk over the gorge)
- Clogs (which are great fun but useless at augmentation)
- Free hydras (also fun but create a whole new array of issues)
- Mini-cysts (fun but don't do the job properly and cause issues in the current format just as well)
Now I don't mind them trying out new things in the beta, I really don't, and I am pleased they are at least listening to the primary concern but I am convinced the free structures was a bad move. <b>It's as if marines bought 3 mines once, and got to replace them everytime they get destroyed, or everytime they move up, for as long as they remained alive.</b> Would people be okay with that? I doubt it. The 10 p.res for the gorge is what you pay to be able to heal and support other players (this is why I advocate clogs becoming free and non-augmented), it's certainly not a p.res cost that represents you also being able to put down 3 hydras, endlessly.
There's a real problem with gorges just being able to turtle up with hydras, i.e they don't have to think about their placement, and there is NO cost to losing them. Marines can be delayed by free structures, which when finally destroyed can just get replaced in a matter of seconds. Running past the hydras to kill the gorge is the only sensible thing to do, but a sure deathwish.
If hydras went back to costing p.res, and recycle only gave back half of your p.res, or 2/3rd, they'd actually have to think about hydra placement again, marines would actually have a point in killing them and you wouldn't have to hardcap them (which is probably bad design anyway) Not to mention gorge players wouldn't sit on a fat stack of 100 res lategame, being forced to go onos since there is nothing else they can do with it anyway.
<ol type='1'><li>The cost would need to at the least be cut in half from the previous cost (3-5 res).</li><li>There would be no limitation on remaining Gorge after dropping them (you are after all investing res into it).</li><li>The hard limit would need to be removed (res would act as a soft limit).</li><li>The Hydras either need to be refundable, or in the absence of a refund, transportable.</li></ol>
The last point especially needs to be true, because people are not going to want to invest resources in a static defensive structure that may never see use when they could just use it on lifeforms. I'd go so far as to say you would never see a Hydra ever again in competitive play if they were unmovable but cost resources. Like I pointed out earlier, if you play any game that involves static defenses (SC2 is a good example), any decent player will tell you that you want to avoid investing in a static defense at all costs because you are investing resources in an immobile structure that may not see use for the majority of the game, rather than a mobile unit or upgrade that will help you wherever you need it.
Another important aspect about static defences is how they are placed. When they are static, it becomes super important to choose a location well. A static defence placed too defensively has little impact on the rest of the game but a static defence placed too offensively is vulnerable and risky. Removing this aspect of placement leads to two undesirable scenarios. Either hydras can be placed super-offensively with low-risk, high-reward outcomes (the gorge could die if he's dumb) or they can be crept forward in a 0-risk, eventual high-reward outcome. Both suck.
There absolutely, unequivocably, <i>has</i> to be a refund cost if the gorge is ever to be a serious class. I am in favour of *some* refundability because I like the thought of less hydras overall but the amount needs to be significantly small.
P.S. i'm in favour of hydras costing resources obviously
Another important aspect about static defences is how they are placed. When they are static, it becomes super important to choose a location well. A static defence placed too defensively has little impact on the rest of the game but a static defence placed too offensively is vulnerable and risky. Removing this aspect of placement leads to two undesirable scenarios. Either hydras can be placed super-offensively with low-risk, high-reward outcomes (the gorge could die if he's dumb) or they can be crept forward in a 0-risk, eventual high-reward outcome. Both suck.
There absolutely, unequivocably, <i>has</i> to be a refund cost if the gorge is ever to be a serious class. I am in favour of *some* refundability because I like the thought of less hydras overall but the amount needs to be significantly small.
P.S. i'm in favour of hydras costing resources obviously<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such a professional forum writer :D
Sure I could go gorge for 2 minutes, help build a Hive, and drop my 6 hydras, but often I don't because getting to Onos / Fade that much faster has a BIG impact on the game
<i>(Especially when the game has been very close up till that point. . . you simply can't wait for 10 more)</i>
I'm much more annoyed at how many Marines it takes to break a 3 hydra + 1 whip choke and that changes should come to the marine arsenal first so that we can balance the inevitable encounter
If the next patch rolls and hydras now cost 3-5 PRes with no other changes you're going to see 90% of the games go to stale Grenade Launcher rushes
<i>I can pretty well guarantee it</i>
-
Sure I could go gorge for 2 minutes, help build a Hive, and drop my 6 hydras, but often I don't because getting to Onos / Fade that much faster has a BIG impact on the game
<i>(Especially when the game has been very close up till that point. . . you simply can't wait for 10 more)</i>
I'm much more annoyed at how many Marines it takes to break a 3 hydra + 1 whip choke and that changes should come to the marine arsenal first so that we can balance the inevitable encounter
If the next patch rolls and hydras now cost 3-5 PRes with no other changes you're going to see 90% of the games go to stale Grenade Launcher rushes
<i>I can pretty well guarantee it</i>
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I got the feeling that people are not talking about how weak hydras are but how easy they are to take down with gl's. I would say 10res is fine, they are quite useful when well palced.
The problem is with how many grenade launchers you see in the public games. It's hard for marines to brake Hydra walls in public before the gl's come along while there are gorges healing them or supported by skulks.
In the competitive matches hydras do very good against marine it slows their movement and forces them to be vulnerable if they try to attack it. Even if marines use gl's they are still halting the marine movement.
In ns1 you rarly saw gl's, this made it possible for gorges to stop marine pushes with mass oc's/dc's in a long game. However in ns2 Gl's are so accessable that marines just spam grenades to take down these defenses. This gives the feeling that hydras are useless and are not worth making.
There is also the thing with arcs, they have so much burst damage that gorges have no time to migrade the damage. If the arc rate of fire and damage would be halved it would keep it's damage output but gorges would be able to heal between the shots. Of course when the arcs hit a critical number this won't be possible anymore.
They already have ARCS though, and we already see a ton of ARC spam because its the only godahm way marines now have to deal with whip and hydra spam. The ammount of marines present just happens to be the ammount of people who decided to guard the ARCs and are there to counter your team, not the static defence. The problem is not a lack of firepower, but the insane dps that hitscan hydras put out. Free hydras are definitely fun because they're clearly overpowered and mean a ######load of kills and map control. This doesn't mean they're balanced or conducive to mutually fun, good gameflow.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the next patch rolls and hydras now cost 3-5 PRes with no other changes you're going to see 90% of the games go to stale Grenade Launcher rushes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why this connection?? Can you explain in more detail how you came to this conclusion? Regardless of whether or not hydras cost pres, marines will need to kill the death gardens regardless in order to kill the hive in order to win the game. Back when hydras cost even more (10res), we didn't see 90% of the game go stale grenade launcher rush. Infact the correlation between hydra spammability and grenade launcher proliferation should be the exact opposite. Are you saying that free hydras with hitscan are discouraging grenade launcher rushes and why so?
Heres what needs to be done:
-Lower the hydra cap increase per hive (ex: 3 to start, +1 per hive)
-Add Hydras after augmentation (gorges have clog and cyst to start...gives marines time to get GL...makes whip placement a bit more important throughout the game)
-Increase gorge costs, or have players spend pres for abilities such as gorge's building ability, leap, blink, ect... (taboo subject apparently)
-Lower Hydra HP, especially when newly deployed. A new hydra should die with one grenade. Mature can take a few as they do now.
I do think there are not enough PRES sinks for alien early on, but I don't think static defenses should act as the de-facto pres sink. That is placing WAY too much importance on static defenses imo. Alien higher lifeforms are also too effective for their pres cost, but thats for another thread....
<!--quoteo(post=1931764:date=Apr 30 2012, 04:38 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 30 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>It's as if marines bought 3 mines once, and got to replace them every time they get destroyed, or every time they move up, for as long as they remained alive.</b> Would people be okay with that? I doubt it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually wouldn't mind this at all and think its a good idea. Mines are tame and balanced early game, but are pretty much worthless mid-late game. However if marines could redeploy them it would give them use throughout the game. Marines would still have to repurchase them every time they die, so it only rewards players for staying alive (is this a bad thing?). Its annoying spending 15 res just to see a fade trigger them all away. Once I see fades, I don't bother with mines. It really wouldn't make them more effective early game, and might even tone it down since marine side can't buy spam them as much.
how about this: cap hydras at a set team number. so even if EVERYone goes gorge, theres still a global team cap that they can't go over, that increases per hive. otherwise, leave it all the same with just that change.
this way you dont have late-game gorges with 7+ hydras to place apiece covering the entire map.
on top of that, the idea UWE mentioned for later of buildings dying if the gorge changes lifeforms would be a great idea. it means no 'going gorge, laying hydras, then going onos'.
I like this idea!
<!--quoteo(post=1931754:date=Apr 30 2012, 12:19 AM:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen @ Apr 30 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, marines generally pay a much, much higher price to remove a hydra than the gorge pays to build it. A marine will have to expose himself on the frontline, waste ammo, health, and time just to take it down. Then he must run back to an armory (or eat the comm's resources) to return only to find even more hydras and clogs to contend with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds just like the same situation for turrets in a base?
<!--quoteo(post=1931755:date=Apr 30 2012, 12:44 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Apr 30 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, you're comparing the Gorge making his own Turrets for free to a Marine setting up turrets built by his commander for 10 TRes? The fact is, is that Turrets/Whips/Hydras are Static Defense - Two of them cost 10 Res, have Build times require Cysts/Power and a few days ago so did the Hydra. Why make a double standard for static defence?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the double standard?? Its not unfair considering that turrets don't require a marine to be weaponless, like hydras do for gorges, therefore i see it as asymmetry instead.
<i>"The Gorge can be compared to a Marine helping build a Marine Structure, that's a Gorge helping build an alien structure - Healspray."</i>
I don't think you were understanding my analogy - The marine can wield a LMG, pistol, FT, GL, and eventually an exosuit, <u>AND can weld! </u>Can you say the gorge gets the same treatment or ever will? Didn't think so. There is a trade off occurring that i do not think people are seeing! If you evolve to be a fighting class, you will lose those static structures / that role.
<i>"Nobody is suggesting it is the only method, the concern is, is that this is a questionable development path. You could make Gorge more or less 'balanced', but at what cost(That's a metaphorical cost to game design, not a PRes cost)."</i>
The only suggestion i've seen thus far,<i> save for the one comment before me here</i>, is to revert the changes instead of adjusting them /working with them. He will be balanced just fine with time, i am sure.
<i>"They could give Marines free weapons and then balance the entire game around it so it's fair, but why would they want to - Who wants to play a game with mechanics like that? Nobody wants to come up against Free Hydras, I feel sad as a Gorge using Free Hydras.
There were issues with the previous Gorge, it wasn't really worth playing. But, what UWE did was this :
- Make Gorge more viable by changing the building system to greatly benefit from one.
- Make Gorge have free buildings.
Why wouldn't they do a incremental change and see how Gorge plays with the new building system before giving out free buildings?
Haha, so this change not only requires cost changes to the Gorge which change the game drastically - But, it also requires down the road changes? How is it you think that's a good idea?
CHANGE FOR THE SAKE OF CHANGE - UWE."</i>
You are stretching with this analogy, obviously, to make a point, but it is not an accurate one.
<i>Marines have free weapons? </i>LMG, buddy. So does every alien class, <u>now</u>. But like both teams, there are upgrades at the cost of Tres.
There were more issues to the previous gorge than just viability.
Incremental change to say, one ability, would still allow some of those issues to exist.
Yes it requires changes down the road. *What feature so far in this development, Alpha or Beta stages, have ever worked flawlessly without adjustment/changes from the first time implemented?* Hrrmmmm?? You are a tester, believe it or not, and this is a <b>work in progress.</b>
I know you're new so you may not be used to this situation, but each patch can bring a completely different dynamic/game each week! Some things, like infestation, took dozens and dozens of patches to get right - all the while people screaming about it and asking for it to be removed yada yada. (FT got it the worst)
And finally, do you really believe UWE makes changes for the sake of changes? Or could it be that you just don't see the big picture? No offense but making claims like that just shows that you aren't considering everything at hand, here. And thats okay, just sit tight and pretty soon everything will gel. The best thing you can do is come up with great ideas /solutions to help the devs down the road with their adjustments - sometimes the community offers far better ideas than what gets "kicked around the office" and it can get implemented.
(Free gorge abilities WAS argued for in multiple forums, Xarius, believe it or not.)
EDIT: GREAT idea KaiAllardLiao!!
I may well of only been playing since 195, but I've seen nothing gel together in that time. If anything balance has got progressively worse - But, unfortunately I don't subscribe to "Don't worry developers will fix it... eventually" philosophies.
I appreciate that you think that the developers will make it work. I only regret that I wasn't reading the forums when people suggested the free building idea so I could of argued against it then.
As far as your comments on Turrets/Gorges go I can't really say I agree with it - But, you don't seem to want to believe anything other than Gorge's are terrible so..
If you want to move into or through a fortified position with X number of defenders, you will need 1.5X number of attackers, or 2X or 3X ect, depending on how fortified the area is. You simply need to determine whether the superior short term cost will be worth the long term benefit. Deciding on the correct action to take is aided by strategic thinking, and often hindered by considering what the scoreboard says.
Just as the skulk enforces a certain amount of "fortification" across a large area which he defends and attacks, so the gorge applies a far larger amount of fortification in a much smaller area. Consider the strategic benefit of mobility, and that the skulk provides his services without personal cost. I think you will find that the gorge balanced just fine at the moment, the only problem being when a player can provide the static defences of a gorge, while playing another life form. This has obviously been identified however, and I'm sure will be addressed.
Balance is not going to be "focused" on until we are feature complete.
In the meantime, glaring balance issues like aliens winning 90% of the time will be attempted to be addressed patch by patch, but expect the rest to come later.
Makes no sense balancing a game when all it's features are not in yet, hope you understand.
And its okay if you don't agree with what i said, this is a place for <i>discussion</i>. :)
Its what i love most about these forums, having logical arguments being discussed back and forth, often times to find a solution to a problem. Please don't feel discouraged by my arguments - in fact, they are an invitation to a rebuttal<i> if you can / want to.</i>
(at least as long as you dont get dominated by marines, then you might consider some hydra spam, so you can shift forces a bit... 3 well placed hydras and a gorge + a skulk every now and then are a pain in the ass for rines... hydras dont even have to kill any marine - its enough to weaken them a tiny bit for skulks)
I disagree with the whole Aliens spending resources on abilities as a blanket feature to Aliens. On the Gorge however I wouldn't mind seeing it for the sole reason that if it was handled correctly, the Gorge could be turned into a really unique lifeform that could essentially keep evolving all these different aspects of itself. I think something like that works nicely for the Gorge, because he is unique among all the Alien lifeforms in that his use to the team comes from what he builds (and to a lesser extent being a heal bot).
(For anyone who plays EVE, I'm thinking of something like T3 Cruisers. Or another example for anyone who's ever played Island Defense on WC3/SC2, a class like the Demonologist/Baneling/Morphling)
That's like saying its worrying that Obama isn't going to be president for much longer.
Hydras really shouldn't be able to be replaced/recycled instantly, which is why I think a p.res cost would be a much more effective system. Either that or they will have to come up with some sort of cooldown system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Add Hydras after augmentation (gorges have clog and cyst to start...gives marines time to get GL...makes whip placement a bit more important throughout the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This would be the quickest way to make gorges incredibly boring before augmentation ships. Seriously, no one wants to gorge just to put down some cysts and clogs or do the occasional asthma-healing. I would like to argue clogs should be made augment-free regardless, they're really not tier 2 worthy. They're a fun and novel addition to the gorge, but with augmentation they come out too late to have any significant impact on gameplay.