I don't think scaling is even being considered at the moment.
Primary goal atm is to take all the good from NS1 and strain out the bad. And likewise for NS2.
edit: and to be fair, I'm not sure there's really much disparity in scaling between the two at the moment anyway. Except maybe that aliens always win regardless of player count in ns2 right now. Which is probably not a highlight lol
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
politely disagree, considering the fact that the resource model has been implemented to mirror NS1, and it was this resource model that caused the lack of scaling. (hence Charlie's reason for pres and alien comm) So yea, as long as it stays a competitive only mod @ 6v6 i can see ignoring that issue, but surely when given the opportunity to make something like this wouldn't you fix the ONE issue that plagued NS?
No offense, but i'd like to hear from the author of the mod. <!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->(instead of a "PR monkey"... *nudge* *nudge* see what i did there, player?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Sad that ns2 doesnt scale too well either... since its not only the res model that needs to scale with playercount... (not that i care, as long as 6v6 is covered - dont like how it feels at playercounts above 12 "zerg")
Frankly it's pointless to discuss any of these issues if the mod is not made openly, like RisingSun said if feel like any deviation from ns1 should be taken as a community (meaning that every community member opinion as equal weight in the decision process).
Of course xDragon has the right to do what he wants, but I wouldn't feel like it's a true NS1:Spark if it's not made by the community.
Well regarding scaling currently i believe NS2 has the same problems. Its inherent to the ranged vs melee combat. Having 8 marines in a room shooting you is way more deadly than 2, even with 7 alien friends. If you watch some larger games currently that have been played in 8v8 and above the marines stand a much better chance, even with the strong imbalances for the alien side. While the pres/tres splitting does offer a way to balance the game for all (or most) player counts on a pure mathematical level, it fails to adjust the balance of combat in groups, which is were aliens begin to fall apart. IMO NS2 drives that point even further, with lack of certain elements like mobile umbra/more effective spores from lerks, two things which i think were key to alien success in larger numbers. There are other small things that play a role in this, but overall i think the old model can be balanced better than the new model with certain tweaks to the only odd alien lifeform from NS1, the onos.
Regarding making NS:Spark that is something i had considered, but honestly i somewhat agree with what dePara said, where id would rather play NS1 if thats truely what i want (given all the issues with spark currently). I would like to take what worked from NS1 and start there, and try to further refine it.
Regarding community input and making the changes myself, keep in mind i started this mod 1 week ago. The version that is currently secretly available (lol) has alot of the NS1 elements already implemented. Currently really the only things missing are HA, Motion Tracking, CatPacks, Redemption, Scent of Fear, Focus, using MCs to move to a hive, MCs giving you energy passivly, passive cloaking on SC for any nearby lifeforms, using a hive to teleport to another. Primal scream for lerk (am working on a fury gas cloud for rof and damage increase in cloud), fade metabolize, gorge web and onos devour and charge.
In the end I want the improvements to come from the community, mainly anything im trying currently is just to see how it works. Since there has been a surprisingly moderate response to this (i expected way more trolls), below is a link to what is currently NS2c
<!--quoteo(post=1927342:date=Apr 19 2012, 08:04 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 19 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->(instead of a "PR monkey"... *nudge* *nudge* see what i did there, player?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Still bothering you is it? I wouldn't have expected less from such an apologetic-person as yourself.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@player: Just thought the roles had reversed and it was a mighty opportunistic time to prove a point regarding your word choices, player. No hard feelings on this side, of course.
@xDragon: Thanks for the response. I consider NS2 immune from final judgement regarding balance until 1.0, at least in comparison to NS1. (This does not mean that the current state of the game is balanced or immune from critique in this regard) Adjusting the balance of combat in groups is something that will come down the road.
But none of this answers my question, it was just a response on the state of NS2. Do you have an idea of how you will allow it to scale? or will there be no scaling, i.e. stuck at 6v6?
The download-link vanished! What trickery is this! I was just curious if it concerned a fork of NS2, or a set of clever hooks\overloads to accomplish all this. If it is the former, the mod will be high-maintenance, demanding continues work. Do you intend to invest the time to sustain this as a viable alternate gamemode? Or is it just some experimentation on your side. Forks left unattended have a habit of succumbing to bit-rot rather fast, as is evident in the modding-subforum.
Lol yea currently its a fork, which is why i had to remove the link cause i never did test it with 205.
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?6ddlatwlwxlcr15" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/?6ddlatwlwxlcr15</a> should however work atm.
While hooking in and changing whats needed would be ideal, i think it may prove quite troublesome initially as quite a lot is changed, and my level of experience with that is not very high.
Regarding scaling on a mathematical level, i will not be planning on that. I think the base NS1 game scaled decently well from 6v6 to near 10v10, however beyond that was when it ran into trouble. I think if this mod proves to be popular/played then maybe some degree of scaling could be looked at on a mathematical level to correct the edge cases (< 10 players or more than 20)
I do believe you need to be wary of releasing the mod at this stage in NS 2' development, the NS 2 community is still very young and fragile and splitting it up between NS 2 'classic' and NS 2 players would not be a good thing for anyone at this point. I fear that many (particularly veteran) players will be attracted to this project largely out of nostalgia, and as a result refuse to (and have no need to) accept some of the changes that NS 2 has introduced. It would only be a matter of time before we see classic servers pop up and you'd have a small community split into two even smaller parts.
Which is not to say I don't support this project, I think it's great that you are doing this, and I'm excited to give it a try, I'm just saying the timing is not at all right for a mod like this. (At least not if the plan is to have servers run it in the near future)
<!--quoteo(post=1927615:date=Apr 20 2012, 10:29 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 20 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do believe you need to be wary of releasing the mod at this stage in NS 2' development, the NS 2 community is still very young and fragile and splitting it up between NS 2 'classic' and NS 2 players would not be a good thing for anyone at this point. I fear that many (particularly veteran) players will be attracted to this project largely out of nostalgia, and as a result refuse to (and have no need to) accept some of the changes that NS 2 has introduced. It would only be a matter of time before we see classic servers pop up and you'd have a small community split into two even smaller parts.
Which is not to say I don't support this project, I think it's great that you are doing this, and I'm excited to give it a try, I'm just saying the timing is not at all right for a mod like this. (At least not if the plan is to have servers run it in the near future)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me personally if i had this mod to play i would be able to stomach whatever happens to NS2 a lot better. I understand your position though. Sounds exactly how i felt about combat.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
There is a reason why ns2 is written in lua and it is easy moddability. Why would they have done so if they didn't think the playerbase couldn't support mods? Stop hatin' ns2 purists.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1927615:date=Apr 20 2012, 03:29 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 20 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do believe you need to be wary of releasing the mod at this stage in NS 2' development, the NS 2 community is still very young and fragile and splitting it up between NS 2 'classic' and NS 2 players would not be a good thing for anyone at this point. I fear that many (particularly veteran) players will be attracted to this project largely out of nostalgia, and as a result refuse to (and have no need to) accept some of the changes that NS 2 has introduced. It would only be a matter of time before we see classic servers pop up and you'd have a small community split into two even smaller parts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While undoubtedly some of this will happen, the NS2 playerbase isn't a zero-sum situation. Mods can attract additional players who may decide to also play the vanilla game. If NS2:Classic gets some NS1 vets who wouldn't have played NS2 to play NS2, then it will have ultimately added to the overall playerbase.
<!--quoteo(post=1934941:date=May 9 2012, 04:22 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 9 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wondering how this is coming along =) and how to install the damn thing. I'm a MOD noob.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry about it.
My progress on this mod is currently on hold, mainly all ive done recently is make sure it works with each new patch. There are many reasons why I stopped active development, but this isnt really the place to discuss them.
Seeing how things play out with NS2 will determine the future of this mod currently.
I believe you already have obtained a copy through the sekrat distribution chain however, so any feedback you have is welcome.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
Awesome. This mod absolutely SHOULD be made. It's all about choice. The best thing that could happen is that NS2 is made even better by "competition" with such a mod.
<!--quoteo(post=1935022:date=May 10 2012, 05:52 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 10 2012, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My progress on this mod is currently on hold, mainly all ive done recently is make sure it works with each new patch. There are many reasons why I stopped active development, but this isnt really the place to discuss them.
Seeing how things play out with NS2 will determine the future of this mod currently.
I believe you already have obtained a copy through the sekrat distribution chain however, so any feedback you have is welcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have indeed and will be play testing the hell out of it =) I wish i could help with the coding. As stated in other threads, after the Q&A session i have finally given up on NS2. This is my last hope =) YOU are my last hope <3
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I'd be up for testing this out, I think I need a break from NS2's currently shaky gameplay on occasion and honestly NS1 classic's server situation is generally pitiful to the point I'm stuck playing at a terrible ping with a language barrier to contend with.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The mod has not been updated for several builds, and there have been significant enough changes in that time that many things would or should be re-written. I have been somewhat updating it just to insure that it loads in each new build, which it currently does.
I may take steps soon to create a more permenant/open location and path forward for this mod, and a solution that allows for more people to contribute to it.
Comments
Primary goal atm is to take all the good from NS1 and strain out the bad. And likewise for NS2.
edit: and to be fair, I'm not sure there's really much disparity in scaling between the two at the moment anyway. Except maybe that aliens always win regardless of player count in ns2 right now. Which is probably not a highlight lol
No offense, but i'd like to hear from the author of the mod. <!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->(instead of a "PR monkey"... *nudge* *nudge* see what i did there, player?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Of course xDragon has the right to do what he wants, but I wouldn't feel like it's a true NS1:Spark if it's not made by the community.
Well regarding scaling currently i believe NS2 has the same problems. Its inherent to the ranged vs melee combat. Having 8 marines in a room shooting you is way more deadly than 2, even with 7 alien friends. If you watch some larger games currently that have been played in 8v8 and above the marines stand a much better chance, even with the strong imbalances for the alien side. While the pres/tres splitting does offer a way to balance the game for all (or most) player counts on a pure mathematical level, it fails to adjust the balance of combat in groups, which is were aliens begin to fall apart. IMO NS2 drives that point even further, with lack of certain elements like mobile umbra/more effective spores from lerks, two things which i think were key to alien success in larger numbers. There are other small things that play a role in this, but overall i think the old model can be balanced better than the new model with certain tweaks to the only odd alien lifeform from NS1, the onos.
Regarding making NS:Spark that is something i had considered, but honestly i somewhat agree with what dePara said, where id would rather play NS1 if thats truely what i want (given all the issues with spark currently). I would like to take what worked from NS1 and start there, and try to further refine it.
Regarding community input and making the changes myself, keep in mind i started this mod 1 week ago. The version that is currently secretly available (lol) has alot of the NS1 elements already implemented. Currently really the only things missing are HA, Motion Tracking, CatPacks, Redemption, Scent of Fear, Focus, using MCs to move to a hive, MCs giving you energy passivly, passive cloaking on SC for any nearby lifeforms, using a hive to teleport to another. Primal scream for lerk (am working on a fury gas cloud for rof and damage increase in cloud), fade metabolize, gorge web and onos devour and charge.
In the end I want the improvements to come from the community, mainly anything im trying currently is just to see how it works. Since there has been a surprisingly moderate response to this (i expected way more trolls), below is a link to what is currently NS2c
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?6ddlatwlwxlcr15" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/?6ddlatwlwxlcr15</a>
Still bothering you is it? I wouldn't have expected less from such an apologetic-person as yourself.
@xDragon:
Thanks for the response. I consider NS2 immune from final judgement regarding balance until 1.0, at least in comparison to NS1. (This does not mean that the current state of the game is balanced or immune from critique in this regard) Adjusting the balance of combat in groups is something that will come down the road.
But none of this answers my question, it was just a response on the state of NS2. Do you have an idea of how you will allow it to scale? or will there be no scaling, i.e. stuck at 6v6?
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?6ddlatwlwxlcr15" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/?6ddlatwlwxlcr15</a> should however work atm.
While hooking in and changing whats needed would be ideal, i think it may prove quite troublesome initially as quite a lot is changed, and my level of experience with that is not very high.
Regarding scaling on a mathematical level, i will not be planning on that. I think the base NS1 game scaled decently well from 6v6 to near 10v10, however beyond that was when it ran into trouble. I think if this mod proves to be popular/played then maybe some degree of scaling could be looked at on a mathematical level to correct the edge cases (< 10 players or more than 20)
Would really like to a see a mod thread with change logs and updates!
Which is not to say I don't support this project, I think it's great that you are doing this, and I'm excited to give it a try, I'm just saying the timing is not at all right for a mod like this. (At least not if the plan is to have servers run it in the near future)
Which is not to say I don't support this project, I think it's great that you are doing this, and I'm excited to give it a try, I'm just saying the timing is not at all right for a mod like this. (At least not if the plan is to have servers run it in the near future)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me personally if i had this mod to play i would be able to stomach whatever happens to NS2 a lot better. I understand your position though. Sounds exactly how i felt about combat.
While undoubtedly some of this will happen, the NS2 playerbase isn't a zero-sum situation. Mods can attract additional players who may decide to also play the vanilla game. If NS2:Classic gets some NS1 vets who wouldn't have played NS2 to play NS2, then it will have ultimately added to the overall playerbase.
Would be nice to play like in old days.
Server will be up all day or so.
Don't worry about it.
Seeing how things play out with NS2 will determine the future of this mod currently.
I believe you already have obtained a copy through the sekrat distribution chain however, so any feedback you have is welcome.
Seeing how things play out with NS2 will determine the future of this mod currently.
I believe you already have obtained a copy through the sekrat distribution chain however, so any feedback you have is welcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have indeed and will be play testing the hell out of it =) I wish i could help with the coding. As stated in other threads, after the Q&A session i have finally given up on NS2. This is my last hope =) YOU are my last hope <3
I may take steps soon to create a more permenant/open location and path forward for this mod, and a solution that allows for more people to contribute to it.
No. It's in the mod code(the shared physics code of the client and server .dlls). It was deliberately kept in the game for aliens.