... And not to be funny but the shooting mechanics are far too weak to bother making a combat mode, for that I'd take CS:go or any other of the million man on man shooters.
Personally I want to see the mod be built off NS2 RTS elements, not become some weak diluted man shooter.
I completely agree on this. And that's been a large focus of the thinking I've had around new possible features. Imo, if the RTS facets are taken away, then MvM would be boring as all hell. Without the RTS component, MvM pales in comparison to other gaming options out there. However, with the RTS qualities and some contextually appropriate additions, I think MvM can really stand on its own as something different and fun. Now, it's just a matter of figuring out what to modify or add.
@DarkflameQ Ok, so you see several things around commnading as a problem. How would you suggest fixing them (working under the assumption RTS facets must stay in game)?
I have no plans to make some kind version of Combat (we're talking NS2 Combat-like variation) of MvM. I do have some ideas around different game-modes. However, to make these separate game modes work in a single mod, and support NS2 maps, will take quite a bit of reworking of the GameRules. So, it will be a while before I start seriously considering adding this in. I can say this for certain, in any variation of MvM that I make, it will always have Team Objectives. I'll never make something akin to "just kill em all". In my opinion, because it's symmetrical nature, MvM absolutely requires overarching objectives and/or RTS qualities.
I love seeing the debating going on. Tis wonderful. I read it all and consider everything that's posted, even the seemingly "dumb stuff". I just hope it doesn't ever degrade into an arugment in any way. These posts help me when thinking about what needs to be changed, removed, and added. So keep it coming folks! Seeing this renewed interest in the mod has really helped quell my frustrations I've had with it over the past months. It's actually got me considering adding some things I wasn't planning to. No guarantees though.
It was great fun but I'm not sure 40 players is the optimal number... maybe 10 on 10?!
I personally don't see any issues with the commanding that aren't present with vanilla NS2.
For me biggest problem is the power node system and all that entails... though I cant really think of a better solution than others have come up with.
Suggestions:
I'd love to see some hand held mid/long range gun, maybe not a sniper but something more akin to the rail gun where you have range and a heavy reliance on your ability to aim.
buildable structures purely designed for cover, sci-fi 'Sandbags' if you like. They would be vulnerable to arcs and damage from the rear.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
@Howser It appears great minds think alike I agree on all your suggestions/idea. I was intending or at least considering adding some kind of cheap structure that essentially functions like a blast shield. Although, the idea of this sort of makes me cringe, because it would kind of a "Deployable Crate". There would need be some additional game mechanics besides purely cover.
I've looked into using @Evil_Ice's Sub-lmg gun model for a mid-range weapon. There are quite a few technical problems to sort out with it. Although the more important thing to consider, is it needs a clear role or niche to fill. And considering the versitle nature of the current Rifle, something like a sub-machine gun isn't really needed. My biggested concern is to fit more gear/weapons into the game is lots of other things will have to be changed to make it work. In other words, I'm worried about the Ripple Effect.
It was great fun but I'm not sure 40 players is the optimal number... maybe 10 on 10?!
It depends on the map size, the bigger stock maps and the custom maps are pretty big and can easily accommodate 32 players.
Good luck keeping a 20 man server populated when quarter of a winning team and quarter / half of the losing team pretty much always leave at the end of a match.
These numbers could be replenished if there was a lot more than 500 active NS2 players and a match making system but there isn't.
I personally don't see any issues with the commanding that aren't present with vanilla NS2.
@DarkflameQ Ok, so you see several things around commnading as a problem. How would you suggest fixing them (working under the assumption RTS facets must stay in game)?
I have no plans to make some kind version of Combat (we're talking NS2 Combat-like variation) of MvM. I do have some ideas around different game-modes. However, to make these separate game modes work in a single mod, and support NS2 maps, will take quite a bit of reworking of the GameRules. So, it will be a while before I start seriously considering adding this in. I can say this for certain, in any variation of MvM that I make, it will always have Team Objectives. I'll never make something akin to "just kill em all". In my opinion, because it's symmetrical nature, MvM absolutely requires overarching objectives and/or RTS qualities.
I love seeing the debating going on. Tis wonderful. I read it all and consider everything that's posted, even the seemingly "dumb stuff". I just hope it doesn't ever degrade into an arugment in any way. These posts help me when thinking about what needs to be changed, removed, and added. So keep it coming folks! Seeing this renewed interest in the mod has really helped quell my frustrations I've had with it over the past months. It's actually got me considering adding some things I wasn't planning to. No guarantees though.
The only aspect of Combat i appreciate is the fact there is no delays to the start of a game and thus there's less chance of people getting bored and leaving maintaining a healthy server population.
I have no problem voicing my opinions regardless of whether or not some feel they are dumb or disagree.
I cannot think of a way of making the commander position more attractive without completely changing the marine side of NS2, simply because i consider the Marine side to be have been developed very lazily compared to the Aliens (a lot more thought definitely went into the Alien side).
Hopefully when pre-game plus is updated to work with MvM, it will help with the boring side of waiting for a commander
...
Good luck keeping a 20 man server populated when quarter of a winning team and quarter / half of the losing team pretty much always leave at the end of a match.
No solid plans on this so far, but I will be doing some experimentation with Bots auto-filling in the gaps when player pop drops. And then the bots drop when a new player joins back in. With server config settings of course. This does however mean I need to get them working, And improve them for MvM first. This is a long way away, but I am going to at least do testing and prototyping when the time comes to determine how feasible this is. I won't add this in if bots disrupt the Client Connection process. Time will tell.
...
Good luck keeping a 20 man server populated when quarter of a winning team and quarter / half of the losing team pretty much always leave at the end of a match.
No solid plans on this so far, but I will be doing some experimentation with Bots auto-filling in the gaps when player pop drops. And then the bots drop when a new player joins back in. With server config settings of course. This does however mean I need to get them working, And improve them for MvM first. This is a long way away, but I am going to at least do testing and prototyping when the time comes to determine how feasible this is. I won't add this in if bots disrupt the Client Connection process. Time will tell.
Sounds interesting, Quake 3 use to work the same way
This one resulted in the ready room being inside the map some how and everyone just stuck in limbo and without the ability to call vote to another map, everyone just left :P
This one resulted in the ready room being inside the map some how and everyone just stuck in limbo and without the ability to call vote to another map, everyone just left :P
I've seen this one before, but have been unable to reproduce it. The only time I've encountered it is during map change or when server first start. Can you give any context to the bug? Btw, thank you for posting these script errors! Getting "good data" helps a lot
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
Sure. The MapEntityLoader was left over stuff I neglected to remove when initially prototyping this mod out. Removed it, so hopefully this will resolve the bug in the next patch.
Sure. The MapEntityLoader was left over stuff I neglected to remove when initially prototyping this mod out. Removed it, so hopefully this will resolve the bug in the next patch.
Well i'll await the next patch before trying to build the server up again as that was a pretty devastating bug that cleared the server population out in under 1 min.
buildable structures purely designed for cover, sci-fi 'Sandbags' if you like.
That... sounds like an excellent idea.
Although I would not make them more or less vulnerable depending on direction... that's more hidden numbers for little benefit, and might be OP when flanking is not an option. Just a fast-building, propped-up metal plate would be fine I think.
Oh, I forgot about another one: One time when commanding on Darkflame's server, my screen locked up, I was still hearing sounds and the in-game voice chat, but couldn't do anything. Pressing Esc did not do anything either. Eventually, I had to kill ns2.exe and restart. I was in a hurry to get back in the CC, so I couldn't investigate further... just thought I'd drop this in case it happens to someone else, too.
Never had a similar issue in NS2 or any other game (no overheating video card etc). The round was still running when I returned, so it was not a server crash either.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited April 2014
Unless something is horribly wrong with this build, it will most likely be at least a week before I can do any more work on MvM. Enjoy
Beta v3.2 Changes
Removed team specific Starting Location restrictions from all maps via Game Rules.
- Changed to make Eclipse, Biodome, and Docking more random and less weighted in Gold Team's favor.
- All TechPoints (excluding ones specifically prevented in maps, I.e. Crossroads) are now equally weighted
Fixed Voting! Kick player, Change map, Round Reset, and Randomize RR voting working again
Fixed Railgun script error when killing an Exo with a Railgun
Fixed MAC collision bug. Players can now pass through MACs
Fixed Game conede message incorrect
Fixed Location name displayed twice on Gold Team 1P UI
Fixed Armor 2 upgrade cost was incorrectly 40, now 30 Tres
Fixed Rifle-Bash doing too much damage to structures
Fixed Kill-score color incorrect
Fixed script error from MapEntityLoader on map-change
Fixed players not getting notification they're being Beaconed
Fixed Distress Beacon sound plays "everywhere" for both teams
Fixed Exo UI not displaying team messages (XYZ Under Attack, Distress Beacon, etc)
Fixed Ready Room players not keeping their skin colorization on game end
Removed Power Node invulnerability. They can now be destroyed (again). Changed this since voting works, hopefully griefers won't ruin things. *fingers crossed*
Increased Medpack pickup delay to 0.65 seconds (was 0.53)
Increased distance Unit status / name plates are drawn to 30 (was 20)
Added Team Supply visual warning for commanders (Supply resource pulsates when 10 or less supply remains)
Added new Damage Type: Melee. This type of damage is effective against everything except structures or units that take extra damage from damage type that are more effective against structures. All 'Melee' type of damage is reduced by 60% against structures.
Rifle-Bash now does Melee damage. This makes it significantly less effective against structures.
Decreased Welder damage to 40 (was 45)
Tweaked Rifle-Bash, Ax, and Welder to be increasingly effective against structures: RifleBash -> Ax -> Welder (worst to best)
Changed Nanoshield to extinguish flames
Increased Nanoshield damage reduction to 35% (was 30%)
Reverted v3.1 Exo armor changes. Exo now has 350 base AR (L1 500, L2 650, L3 800)
Inceased Exo Pres cost to 50 (was 45)
Exos only take 10% damage from any Fire damage
Changed Jetpack flight characteristics to give more forward thrust and less anti-grav feel (now very close to NS2 values, but horizontal changes are slightly faster)
Increased Flamethrower base damage to 20 (was 18)
Increased Burn damage per second to 12 (was 2)
Increased Shotgun damage, per pellet, to 12 (was 11)
Changed Cluster Grenades to do Structural damage type (double against structures, normal otherwise). Damage type was Flame
Changed Cluster Grenades to a single-item purchase
Increased Cluster Grenade initial explosive damage to 75 (was 65)
Increased Cluster Grenade fragment explosive range to 6 (was 5)
Increased Sentry armor to 100. Now 550HP / 100AR (was 550HP / 80AR)
Increased Grenade Launcher grenade's blast radius to 4.5 (was 4)
I believe these continuous errors are causing regular red socket lag on the server (usually this is caused by the UWE badge server not responding but there are no errors of this nature at the moment).
I've closed the server down as the red socket problem is giving the server a bad rep, i'll await the fix.
I believe these continuous errors are causing regular red socket lag on the server (usually this is caused by the UWE badge server not responding but there are no errors of this nature at the moment).
I've closed the server down as the red socket problem is giving the server a bad rep, i'll await the fix.
This error was a brain-fart on my part. I wasn't destroying the memory references for the distress beacon sounds when an Observatory was destroyed. Oops. Fixed and Updated.
I believe these continuous errors are causing regular red socket lag on the server (usually this is caused by the UWE badge server not responding but there are no errors of this nature at the moment).
I've closed the server down as the red socket problem is giving the server a bad rep, i'll await the fix.
This error was a brain-fart on my part. I wasn't destroying the memory references for the distress beacon sounds when an Observatory was destroyed. Oops. Fixed and Updated.
Comments
I completely agree on this. And that's been a large focus of the thinking I've had around new possible features. Imo, if the RTS facets are taken away, then MvM would be boring as all hell. Without the RTS component, MvM pales in comparison to other gaming options out there. However, with the RTS qualities and some contextually appropriate additions, I think MvM can really stand on its own as something different and fun. Now, it's just a matter of figuring out what to modify or add.
@DarkflameQ Ok, so you see several things around commnading as a problem. How would you suggest fixing them (working under the assumption RTS facets must stay in game)?
I have no plans to make some kind version of Combat (we're talking NS2 Combat-like variation) of MvM. I do have some ideas around different game-modes. However, to make these separate game modes work in a single mod, and support NS2 maps, will take quite a bit of reworking of the GameRules. So, it will be a while before I start seriously considering adding this in. I can say this for certain, in any variation of MvM that I make, it will always have Team Objectives. I'll never make something akin to "just kill em all". In my opinion, because it's symmetrical nature, MvM absolutely requires overarching objectives and/or RTS qualities.
I love seeing the debating going on. Tis wonderful. I read it all and consider everything that's posted, even the seemingly "dumb stuff". I just hope it doesn't ever degrade into an arugment in any way. These posts help me when thinking about what needs to be changed, removed, and added. So keep it coming folks! Seeing this renewed interest in the mod has really helped quell my frustrations I've had with it over the past months. It's actually got me considering adding some things I wasn't planning to. No guarantees though.
I personally don't see any issues with the commanding that aren't present with vanilla NS2.
For me biggest problem is the power node system and all that entails... though I cant really think of a better solution than others have come up with.
Suggestions:
I'd love to see some hand held mid/long range gun, maybe not a sniper but something more akin to the rail gun where you have range and a heavy reliance on your ability to aim.
buildable structures purely designed for cover, sci-fi 'Sandbags' if you like. They would be vulnerable to arcs and damage from the rear.
I've looked into using @Evil_Ice's Sub-lmg gun model for a mid-range weapon. There are quite a few technical problems to sort out with it. Although the more important thing to consider, is it needs a clear role or niche to fill. And considering the versitle nature of the current Rifle, something like a sub-machine gun isn't really needed. My biggested concern is to fit more gear/weapons into the game is lots of other things will have to be changed to make it work. In other words, I'm worried about the Ripple Effect.
:bz
Good luck keeping a 20 man server populated when quarter of a winning team and quarter / half of the losing team pretty much always leave at the end of a match.
These numbers could be replenished if there was a lot more than 500 active NS2 players and a match making system but there isn't.
There isn't any extra issues.
The only aspect of Combat i appreciate is the fact there is no delays to the start of a game and thus there's less chance of people getting bored and leaving maintaining a healthy server population.
I have no problem voicing my opinions regardless of whether or not some feel they are dumb or disagree.
I cannot think of a way of making the commander position more attractive without completely changing the marine side of NS2, simply because i consider the Marine side to be have been developed very lazily compared to the Aliens (a lot more thought definitely went into the Alien side).
Hopefully when pre-game plus is updated to work with MvM, it will help with the boring side of waiting for a commander
Good luck!
More errors.
This one resulted in the ready room being inside the map some how and everyone just stuck in limbo and without the ability to call vote to another map, everyone just left :P
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/fa1fee103b9dc97e36d3
Well i'll await the next patch before trying to build the server up again as that was a pretty devastating bug that cleared the server population out in under 1 min.
Has anyone been able to discover what is causing some players to get stuck in the T-pose? I'm having a helluva time tracking this down.
Although I would not make them more or less vulnerable depending on direction... that's more hidden numbers for little benefit, and might be OP when flanking is not an option. Just a fast-building, propped-up metal plate would be fine I think.
Never had a similar issue in NS2 or any other game (no overheating video card etc). The round was still running when I returned, so it was not a server crash either.
Beta v3.2 Changes
Removed team specific Starting Location restrictions from all maps via Game Rules. - Changed to make Eclipse, Biodome, and Docking more random and less weighted in Gold Team's favor. - All TechPoints (excluding ones specifically prevented in maps, I.e. Crossroads) are now equally weighted Fixed Voting! Kick player, Change map, Round Reset, and Randomize RR voting working again Fixed Railgun script error when killing an Exo with a Railgun Fixed MAC collision bug. Players can now pass through MACs Fixed Game conede message incorrect Fixed Location name displayed twice on Gold Team 1P UI Fixed Armor 2 upgrade cost was incorrectly 40, now 30 Tres Fixed Rifle-Bash doing too much damage to structures Fixed Kill-score color incorrect Fixed script error from MapEntityLoader on map-change Fixed players not getting notification they're being Beaconed Fixed Distress Beacon sound plays "everywhere" for both teams Fixed Exo UI not displaying team messages (XYZ Under Attack, Distress Beacon, etc) Fixed Ready Room players not keeping their skin colorization on game end Removed Power Node invulnerability. They can now be destroyed (again). Changed this since voting works, hopefully griefers won't ruin things. *fingers crossed* Increased Medpack pickup delay to 0.65 seconds (was 0.53) Increased distance Unit status / name plates are drawn to 30 (was 20) Added Team Supply visual warning for commanders (Supply resource pulsates when 10 or less supply remains) Added new Damage Type: Melee. This type of damage is effective against everything except structures or units that take extra damage from damage type that are more effective against structures. All 'Melee' type of damage is reduced by 60% against structures. Rifle-Bash now does Melee damage. This makes it significantly less effective against structures. Decreased Welder damage to 40 (was 45) Tweaked Rifle-Bash, Ax, and Welder to be increasingly effective against structures: RifleBash -> Ax -> Welder (worst to best) Changed Nanoshield to extinguish flames Increased Nanoshield damage reduction to 35% (was 30%) Reverted v3.1 Exo armor changes. Exo now has 350 base AR (L1 500, L2 650, L3 800) Inceased Exo Pres cost to 50 (was 45) Exos only take 10% damage from any Fire damage Changed Jetpack flight characteristics to give more forward thrust and less anti-grav feel (now very close to NS2 values, but horizontal changes are slightly faster) Increased Flamethrower base damage to 20 (was 18) Increased Burn damage per second to 12 (was 2) Increased Shotgun damage, per pellet, to 12 (was 11) Changed Cluster Grenades to do Structural damage type (double against structures, normal otherwise). Damage type was Flame Changed Cluster Grenades to a single-item purchase Increased Cluster Grenade initial explosive damage to 75 (was 65) Increased Cluster Grenade fragment explosive range to 6 (was 5) Increased Sentry armor to 100. Now 550HP / 100AR (was 550HP / 80AR) Increased Grenade Launcher grenade's blast radius to 4.5 (was 4)
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/a208b4e8d59626eed391
I believe these continuous errors are causing regular red socket lag on the server (usually this is caused by the UWE badge server not responding but there are no errors of this nature at the moment).
I've closed the server down as the red socket problem is giving the server a bad rep, i'll await the fix.
Cheers
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/312d8f4778e986a5fdd6