Just configured and started [SWE] The Thirsty Onos # Marine vs. Marine. It's a 24-player server located in Stockholm, Sweden.
Mods: MvM, Shine admin, Shine NS2Stats, Jambi and Kodiak.
Will try to fill it later tonight. By the way, how does NS2Stats work with mods? Since maps probably play a bit differently with this mod it might give map makers wrong data.
About NS2Stats: you can allready exclude certain mods and servers via the filters But it's time to add the gamemode filter by default
Anyway i have to look at how the website is working with mvm so far.
Invulnerable power nodes are a pity, but understandable as a quick fix. I hope they'll be back soon. We had some awesome and funny situations with the old mechanic yesterday (Funny as in, the other team killed our power, destroyed our phase gate and the CC, then got power back up for themselves... aaaaand we're respawning right inside "their" new base! Oops...)
Fixed Medpacks pickup not triggering for players (it "should" be fixed, this one is a bit tricky to reproduce)
I'll keep an eye out for any remaining issues.
Added the Slow down on jumping back in to prevent infinity speed b-hop.
Thanks for everything that prevents bunny-hopping from appearing in this game. God, I hate that silly mechanic...
Increased Ax damage to 35 (was 25), and it still Puncture type (i.e. x2 to players)
Ohhh yeah. I love finishing duels with an axe kill
On a related note, welder duels are a thing now B-)
On a rather interesting note, I talked with @Scatter and it looks like his Modular Exo mod is compatible with MvM. I'm going to look into this and see how it and if could be meshed with MvM, but this will come in a much later update.
Awesome! I suggested that combination in the Modular Exo thread a few days ago, great to see it happening! But no pressure... "Vanilla" MvM is plenty of fun already
The nerf on the Exo, I am not sure why you did such a thing. They are paper planes currently, and not worth the res investment at all. I would just suggest a flat revert on those changes. 1200 EHP against Marine rifles sounds like enough till you notice that is only 7.5 seconds of sustained fire from one Marine before it is death. That is just oneeeeeeee Marine. Also Macs should not body block anything in this game, as currently having them repair anyone puts a death sentence on your own team.
Also Riflebut DPS is higher than Wielder and Axe, to players and buildings. Please do fix that, as it is too bloody strong.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
@MrFangs Your funny example actually, conceptually, illustrates one of my biggest problems with Power Nodes in general in MvM. The just don't work in the current context when handled as they are in vanilla NS2. I have an upcoming solution for them, but it will take quite a bit of work to implement so it will be a while. And will probably either be successful or a mod-killing horrible failure. We'll see...
@CyberKun I agree and the exo changes went in the wrong direction. The armor will be restored, but the effective damage debuffs they got in 3.1 are going to stay. A single dual-minigun was previously able to take out a CS within 18 seconds, too damn fast. I will be bumping the Pres cost to 50. The MAC collision issue will take some considerable investigation and changes, so will likely be delayed. I agree about the Rifle-bash, and have a plan to address this.
@DarkflameQ Thanks for posting that. I'm fairly certain what could cause that specific error. Btw, you do have other script errors in that log, hence the "Script Error #5" part. There should be four previous error in your log. I recommend you restart your server on a daily basis at minimum. Ideally when it is idle and empty and every four hours. Also, there are means to do this out there and cache your log files (so they don't get overwritten). If you're renting from some kind of host like Multiplay, I don't know that you'll have access to restart the server in the manor I suggested.
Can anyone confirm that Nanoshield is now, actually, reducing damage taken? I corrected something in v3.1 that could have been preventing it from working.
I really need reproduction steps and logs regarding the T(cross) Posed marines bug. I have yet to be able to reproduce the problem myself. This is either a problem with players joining a server, or something causing errors on their side (other mods, possibly). It's very likely this bug generated a decent amount of log messages / errors. Regardless, I need data to be able to track down the cause of this bug. So, any assistance on this would be appreciated. Remember, software development requires specificity to be done efficiently.
I know what is causing the IP one, that's the Shine Extra Plugins 2nd starting IP feature; i'll disable it for now (it's probably what is causing my Shine issues).
I know what is causing the IP one, that's the Shine Extra Plugins 2nd starting IP feature; i'll disable it for now (it's probably what is causing my Shine issues).
I know what is causing the IP one, that's the Shine Extra Plugins 2nd starting IP feature; i'll disable it for now (it's probably what is causing my Shine issues).
I will confirm in morning.
Fixed [Shine] ExtraPlugins to work with MvM
Thank you! :P
All the Shine plugins appear to be working as expected now, voting menu is still empty though.
A few more errors:
Error: Too many GUI items for rendering (limit 5000)
This happened during spectate, had to restart my game.
Now the 2nd IP script error is resolved, all that seems to be left are Railgun and Flamethrower related ones:
Sup. I just played my very first 3 rounds MvM and felt the need to share my impression
1. It's awesome. And fun.
2. Our comms never researched shotguns or mines, claiming they were worthless.
3. DPS on the w0 rifle felt a bit low - like you would need half a clip to kill a single marine. (Which is kinda bad if youre up to 3)
4. This needs a crossover with the modular exos mod so badly
I think you should have two separate beacon sounds, keep the original one for the blue team and introduce a new one for the gold team. It was really confusing when the commanders started to beacon.
Just configured and started [SWE] The Thirsty Onos # Marine vs. Marine. It's a 24-player server located in Stockholm, Sweden.
Mods: MvM, Shine admin, Shine NS2Stats, Jambi and Kodiak.
Will try to fill it later tonight. By the way, how does NS2Stats work with mods? Since maps probably play a bit differently with this mod it might give map makers wrong data.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited April 2014
@DarkflameQ Nice find! I've always wondering what the GUI Item limit was. Thanks lol If you can across that error when Spectating, I'm not surprised. Normal Spectator-mode is VERY, very broken right now. So broken, that I considered removing it from the game (short term). I will eventually fix it, but in all honesty it's a low priority for me. Did that problem occur when you were spectating your team (Waiting to Spawn) or in full-on Spectator mode?
@YoloSwaggins Yeah, there are definitely problems with Distress Beacons right now. I had it fixed in the pre-release version, but forgot to correct it when patching up work on b264. I already have the code lying around to address this. I'll also be looking to send notice to all players that are going to be beaconed as well.
Granted MvM has its fair share of problems, but it seems like everyone is enjoying it. That's good. Means I haven't gotten everything wrong so far lol
Keep the comments / feedback coming folks! Really helps me sort out what I need to focus on.
@DarkflameQ Nice find! I've always wondering what the GUI Item limit was. Thanks lol If you can across that error when Spectating, I'm not surprised. Normal Spectator-mode is VERY, very broken right now. So broken, that I considered removing it from the game (short term). I will eventually fix it, but in all honesty it's a low priority for me. Did that problem occur when you were spectating your team (Waiting to Spawn) or in full-on Spectator mode?
Full on spectator, i often sit in spectator when not playing on my server, i wasn't moving around though.
It's not a big issue as i have spectator disabled on my server (only admins can spectate).
Hopefully you can resolve the Railgun and Flamethower script errors as they are very regular in my error log and must be eating at server performance.
Granted MvM has its fair share of problems, but it seems like everyone is enjoying it. That's good. Means I haven't gotten everything wrong so far lol
MvM has less problems than the stock game play, that's for sure, lol
The problems MvM does share with stock game play is still a lack of willing commanders.
This is no surprise as the majority of gamers just want to play on the field and have fun and not be stuck in a box all match and get stressed out by the responsibility of commanding.
However MvM does still improve upon vanilla on this aspect simply because marine commanding is a hell of a lot easier to do than alien commanding (although i believe there is room for improvement).
@MrFangs Your funny example actually, conceptually, illustrates one of my biggest problems with Power Nodes in general in MvM. The just don't work in the current context when handled as they are in vanilla NS2. I have an upcoming solution for them, but it will take quite a bit of work to implement so it will be a while. And will probably either be successful or a mod-killing horrible failure. We'll see...
Could you explain why you think it's broken? I think the current mechanic is fine (with some added anti-griefer tweaks).
Regarding my gameplay example - In my opinion the game's behaviour was just fine, and it was a tactical error of the other team to let the IPs live, just like teams in vanilla NS2 sometimes fail to account for Power Surges, or beacons from a powered Observatory outside an unpowered CC room. If anything's unintuitive, then it is IPs continuing to work without a CC (like in vanilla), but that's not the power mechanic's fault.
What I really like about the current mechanic are possibilities like sneaky phase gates right inside an enemy base (punishing a lack of scouting/recon), or armory outposts facing each other within the same power node's area. I don't know what your alternate idea is, but I hope it's not "one team owns the power" node... that would be far less interesting than how it is now.
@MrFangs Regarding Power Nodes... I do feel they add more to the possible gameplay options, conceptually speaking. There are two main issues with them right now however; Griefers and lack of a clear explanation / role. Since both teams can use that at any time (in the default behavior), this leads to non-intuitive understanding of them. And as Jekt pointed out, in their default state, what's the point of them at all if anyone can use them at anytime? They need a reason to stay in the mod, otherwise they're just extra "junk" players have to deal with. I'm still mulling over a few idea, but I don't have a solution I really like yet.
@Jekt I've been asking myself that same question recently. One of the biggest reasons I'm in favor of keeping them is the "Stalemate Problem". Since the game is now symmetrical, a lot of rounds will end up in a stalemate situation. Even if that does occur, Power Nodes offer a way for one team to "out flank" the other. Which is a good thing. However, beyond that, I'm not so sure.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
@McGlaspie How about setting a rule, that rather than powernodes, when a team places a building in a room, it is theirs. The opposing team have to take down all the buildings, then build their own to take it over. Does the same job as a power node, without the power node.
@McGlaspie How about setting a rule, that rather than powernodes, when a team places a building in a room, it is theirs. The opposing team have to take down all the buildings, then build their own to take it over. Does the same job as a power node, without the power node.
How about setting a rule, that rather than powernodes, when a team places a building in a room, it is theirs. The opposing team have to take down all the buildings, then build their own to take it over. Does the same job as a power node, without the power node.
That would rule out the possibility of both teams having structures in the same power node's area at once, which kills several interesting tactics... most importantly, sneaky phase gates.
For example, if one team controls half of the map, it would just need to build one structure in each power node's area to prevent any chance of sneaky building. MvM already tends to have more clear-cut front lines than vanilla NS2 - I think it might get too static without the ninja PG potential.
i think powernode is perfect like it is, you can kill enemy node so they dont beacon or like last game (make cc and obs in elevator while the enemy RT was there in elevator)
then beacon rush shipping early with not even phasegates researched!)
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
It is very possible to make it a minimum requirement of certain buildings to count as taken, so it wouldn't be viable to take every room. Say minimum of an extractor and a phase gate or armory to capture the power. There are lots of ways it can be done and still keep sneaky pg's. just requires some thought that is all.
I played a few rounds on it yesterday was a lot of fun! Please keep at it!
ultimately the map design of the existing NS2 maps isn't all that suited for this sort of shooty shenanigans. I may have a look into making a rough concept one for it with suitable routes, cover and spaces.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
@Howser That sounds pretty sweet. Looking forward to what you come up with. I totally understand what you mean by NS2 maps not quite meshing with mvm. I've got a few features planned to hopefully make them better, but those changes are still a ways off. I need to solve the immediate problems first (voting bug, t-pose players bug, tweaking balance, bla bla bla).
After playing a number of games, i still believe there is an big issue with grenade spam but now it's hand grenades.
I would suggest limiting the cluster grenade to one per purchase instead of two, i'm surprised you receive two considering you limited the other grenades to one per purchase.
Another annoying aspect is having to drop a welder to get the axe out to destroy an extractor only for a team mate to steal the welder, can you not put the welder under another weapon slot so i don't have to drop it to get my axe out?
That would be great.
Med Pack absorption rate should be decreased as fighting someone one to one who is getting constant med packs from their commander can survive 3 clips of the machine gun before finally dying, kind of silly.
Flamethrower damage needs a small damage increase as they appear pretty useless and a waste of res at the moment.
The biggest on going issues (one i have mentioned previously and all are not exclusive to MvM) are:
a) IP spawn bug (something UWE introduced a few months back with their new player collision system but never fixed).
And yes it happens with lower player counts as well (i've witnessed it happen on 20 player counts many times, including today), all it takes is for one or two people to stand idle on an IP and bang, everyone starts spawning into each other and get stuck.
Someone should really take a stab at fixing it once and for all, i mean how hard can it be to make players automatically move off of an IP in random directions after they spawn?
b) troll commanders - admittedly very little we can done about troll commanders but the one thing that should be done is when a commander is ejected, they should be force moved away from the commander chair so someone can get in and take over.
I've seen it happen on many occasions where a troll commander or even just a AFK commander is ejected and they just stand still in the commander chair blocking anyone from taking over (really frustrating stuff).
A simple solution would be to just to kill them upon successful ejection.
c) a lack of willing commanders in the first place, bringing the server to its knees in terms of player count on many occasions (killed it twice yesterday).
I'm patiently waiting for Shine Pre-Game Plus to be updated to work with MvM which should help things but just out of curiosity, are there any plans for a combat version of MvM?
Just got off the 40 player sever...it was completely nuts in a good way, quite a few lols.
@DarkflameQ : What I like about MvM is the fact it's exactly what it says on the tin; NS2 without the aliens. Commander issues and bugs native to the vanilla game are surely not the concern here?! And not to be funny but the shooting mechanics are far too weak to bother making a combat mode, for that I'd take CS:go or any other of the million man on man shooters.
Personally I want to see the mod be built off NS2 RTS elements, not become some weak diluted man shooter.
Whilst things have improved against vanilla gameplay as the insanely annoying Alien commanding has been eliminated there is still a big on going issue that the majority of people just don't want to command.
I can't blame them, commanding for the most part is boring and stressful, the majority of people don't want to be stuck in a box listening to constant order spam from people demanding ammo and med packs despite being in the same room as an armory etc, people just want to shoot and kill stuff and enjoy them selves.
Unfortunately without commanders even the best mod can see their servers empty as people get frustrated waiting for a game to start.
I've been watching my server for days and every time the player count has significantly lowered, it's directly related to commanding, whether it's bad commanding or just no commanders to start the matches in the first place.
I've played / observed over 3000 hours of NS2 gameplay, participated in hundreds of online pub matches and in my opinion, the commander position is and always has been NS2's biggest weakness in terms of gameplay (except bad game performance etc).
Comments
About NS2Stats: you can allready exclude certain mods and servers via the filters
Anyway i have to look at how the website is working with mvm so far.
Invulnerable power nodes are a pity, but understandable as a quick fix. I hope they'll be back soon. We had some awesome and funny situations with the old mechanic yesterday
I'll keep an eye out for any remaining issues.
Thanks for everything that prevents bunny-hopping from appearing in this game. God, I hate that silly mechanic...
Ohhh yeah. I love finishing duels with an axe kill
On a related note, welder duels are a thing now B-)
Awesome! I suggested that combination in the Modular Exo thread a few days ago, great to see it happening! But no pressure... "Vanilla" MvM is plenty of fun already
Also Riflebut DPS is higher than Wielder and Axe, to players and buildings. Please do fix that, as it is too bloody strong.
Here's the only error i had in the server log:
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/88cd1f8353ad1e36c618
@CyberKun I agree and the exo changes went in the wrong direction. The armor will be restored, but the effective damage debuffs they got in 3.1 are going to stay. A single dual-minigun was previously able to take out a CS within 18 seconds, too damn fast. I will be bumping the Pres cost to 50. The MAC collision issue will take some considerable investigation and changes, so will likely be delayed. I agree about the Rifle-bash, and have a plan to address this.
@DarkflameQ Thanks for posting that. I'm fairly certain what could cause that specific error. Btw, you do have other script errors in that log, hence the "Script Error #5" part. There should be four previous error in your log. I recommend you restart your server on a daily basis at minimum. Ideally when it is idle and empty and every four hours. Also, there are means to do this out there and cache your log files (so they don't get overwritten). If you're renting from some kind of host like Multiplay, I don't know that you'll have access to restart the server in the manor I suggested.
Can anyone confirm that Nanoshield is now, actually, reducing damage taken? I corrected something in v3.1 that could have been preventing it from working.
I really need reproduction steps and logs regarding the T(cross) Posed marines bug. I have yet to be able to reproduce the problem myself. This is either a problem with players joining a server, or something causing errors on their side (other mods, possibly). It's very likely this bug generated a decent amount of log messages / errors. Regardless, I need data to be able to track down the cause of this bug. So, any assistance on this would be appreciated. Remember, software development requires specificity to be done efficiently.
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/006fececcb86760f74ef
I know what is causing the IP one, that's the Shine Extra Plugins 2nd starting IP feature; i'll disable it for now (it's probably what is causing my Shine issues).
I will confirm in morning.
Fixed [Shine] ExtraPlugins to work with MvM
Thank you! :P
All the Shine plugins appear to be working as expected now, voting menu is still empty though.
A few more errors:
This happened during spectate, had to restart my game.
Now the 2nd IP script error is resolved, all that seems to be left are Railgun and Flamethrower related ones:
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/382fa51ca21e9668eb24
1. It's awesome. And fun.
2. Our comms never researched shotguns or mines, claiming they were worthless.
3. DPS on the w0 rifle felt a bit low - like you would need half a clip to kill a single marine. (Which is kinda bad if youre up to 3)
4. This needs a crossover with the modular exos mod so badly
...but that's just, like, my opinion, man^^
Maybe one like this (at 5:45):
I also believe there should be some form of on screen indication that your team is being beaconed.
Your servers are by far the best.
@YoloSwaggins Yeah, there are definitely problems with Distress Beacons right now. I had it fixed in the pre-release version, but forgot to correct it when patching up work on b264. I already have the code lying around to address this. I'll also be looking to send notice to all players that are going to be beaconed as well.
Granted MvM has its fair share of problems, but it seems like everyone is enjoying it. That's good. Means I haven't gotten everything wrong so far lol
Keep the comments / feedback coming folks! Really helps me sort out what I need to focus on.
It's not a big issue as i have spectator disabled on my server (only admins can spectate).
Hopefully you can resolve the Railgun and Flamethower script errors as they are very regular in my error log and must be eating at server performance.
MvM has less problems than the stock game play, that's for sure, lol
The problems MvM does share with stock game play is still a lack of willing commanders.
This is no surprise as the majority of gamers just want to play on the field and have fun and not be stuck in a box all match and get stressed out by the responsibility of commanding.
However MvM does still improve upon vanilla on this aspect simply because marine commanding is a hell of a lot easier to do than alien commanding (although i believe there is room for improvement).
Regarding my gameplay example - In my opinion the game's behaviour was just fine, and it was a tactical error of the other team to let the IPs live, just like teams in vanilla NS2 sometimes fail to account for Power Surges, or beacons from a powered Observatory outside an unpowered CC room. If anything's unintuitive, then it is IPs continuing to work without a CC (like in vanilla), but that's not the power mechanic's fault.
What I really like about the current mechanic are possibilities like sneaky phase gates right inside an enemy base (punishing a lack of scouting/recon), or armory outposts facing each other within the same power node's area. I don't know what your alternate idea is, but I hope it's not "one team owns the power" node... that would be far less interesting than how it is now.
Thanks! I'm happy to hear that you like them
@Vesanus Good, glad you enjoyed it.
@MrFangs Regarding Power Nodes... I do feel they add more to the possible gameplay options, conceptually speaking. There are two main issues with them right now however; Griefers and lack of a clear explanation / role. Since both teams can use that at any time (in the default behavior), this leads to non-intuitive understanding of them. And as Jekt pointed out, in their default state, what's the point of them at all if anyone can use them at anytime? They need a reason to stay in the mod, otherwise they're just extra "junk" players have to deal with. I'm still mulling over a few idea, but I don't have a solution I really like yet.
@Jekt I've been asking myself that same question recently. One of the biggest reasons I'm in favor of keeping them is the "Stalemate Problem". Since the game is now symmetrical, a lot of rounds will end up in a stalemate situation. Even if that does occur, Power Nodes offer a way for one team to "out flank" the other. Which is a good thing. However, beyond that, I'm not so sure.
I totally agree with this.
For example, if one team controls half of the map, it would just need to build one structure in each power node's area to prevent any chance of sneaky building. MvM already tends to have more clear-cut front lines than vanilla NS2 - I think it might get too static without the ninja PG potential.
then beacon rush shipping early with not even phasegates researched!)
ultimately the map design of the existing NS2 maps isn't all that suited for this sort of shooty shenanigans. I may have a look into making a rough concept one for it with suitable routes, cover and spaces.
I would suggest limiting the cluster grenade to one per purchase instead of two, i'm surprised you receive two considering you limited the other grenades to one per purchase.
Another annoying aspect is having to drop a welder to get the axe out to destroy an extractor only for a team mate to steal the welder, can you not put the welder under another weapon slot so i don't have to drop it to get my axe out?
That would be great.
Med Pack absorption rate should be decreased as fighting someone one to one who is getting constant med packs from their commander can survive 3 clips of the machine gun before finally dying, kind of silly.
Flamethrower damage needs a small damage increase as they appear pretty useless and a waste of res at the moment.
The biggest on going issues (one i have mentioned previously and all are not exclusive to MvM) are:
a) IP spawn bug (something UWE introduced a few months back with their new player collision system but never fixed).
And yes it happens with lower player counts as well (i've witnessed it happen on 20 player counts many times, including today), all it takes is for one or two people to stand idle on an IP and bang, everyone starts spawning into each other and get stuck.
Someone should really take a stab at fixing it once and for all, i mean how hard can it be to make players automatically move off of an IP in random directions after they spawn?
b) troll commanders - admittedly very little we can done about troll commanders but the one thing that should be done is when a commander is ejected, they should be force moved away from the commander chair so someone can get in and take over.
I've seen it happen on many occasions where a troll commander or even just a AFK commander is ejected and they just stand still in the commander chair blocking anyone from taking over (really frustrating stuff).
A simple solution would be to just to kill them upon successful ejection.
c) a lack of willing commanders in the first place, bringing the server to its knees in terms of player count on many occasions (killed it twice yesterday).
I'm patiently waiting for Shine Pre-Game Plus to be updated to work with MvM which should help things but just out of curiosity, are there any plans for a combat version of MvM?
@DarkflameQ : What I like about MvM is the fact it's exactly what it says on the tin; NS2 without the aliens. Commander issues and bugs native to the vanilla game are surely not the concern here?! And not to be funny but the shooting mechanics are far too weak to bother making a combat mode, for that I'd take CS:go or any other of the million man on man shooters.
Personally I want to see the mod be built off NS2 RTS elements, not become some weak diluted man shooter.
I can't blame them, commanding for the most part is boring and stressful, the majority of people don't want to be stuck in a box listening to constant order spam from people demanding ammo and med packs despite being in the same room as an armory etc, people just want to shoot and kill stuff and enjoy them selves.
Unfortunately without commanders even the best mod can see their servers empty as people get frustrated waiting for a game to start.
I've been watching my server for days and every time the player count has significantly lowered, it's directly related to commanding, whether it's bad commanding or just no commanders to start the matches in the first place.
I've played / observed over 3000 hours of NS2 gameplay, participated in hundreds of online pub matches and in my opinion, the commander position is and always has been NS2's biggest weakness in terms of gameplay (except bad game performance etc).