The Pre-Map Thread

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">A discussion of designs and ideas</div>I am working on a map but it is nowhere near ready for it's own thread yet. So I decided to create a general thread for maps and their discussions before they reach own thread stage.

I'd like to start with a dissection on the plans, aims and goals of my map, and hope others will contribute their own ideas, so we can see the ideas under development in the community.

My map does not use any of the standard layouts, but follows the guidelines very heavily in all other respects, including fixed spawn for marines and aliens. The key word I picked up on in the mapping guidelines was "Relocation", and this map is designed to force serious consideration of relocation strategies. It has to be fixed spawn, as only the two starting positions have res nodes attached.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Layout:</b></span>

I am using a 5TP/8RP design, it would have been 7RP, but I wanted a Double :) Below is the layout design I am working from, I shall explain it underneath. Please note it is not to scale, it is just a template.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/MapTemplate1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

The plans for the general timings fit in with the guidelines, but key timing points to note are:

Start>RP>1XP is slightly less than Start>Double

1XP>2RP is slightly less than 1XP>Double

Double>2XP is slightly shorter than 1XP>2RP>Double

Primary paths are always slightly shorter than the equivalent Secondary path. This means smaller aliens can travel a bit safer, at a time cost, early game, and the marines can travel safer (hiding from teh onoes :P), at a time cost in late game.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Tactics:</b></span>

This is designed for fast gameplay, more aggresive, and risky, tactics, could significantly shorten the game time.

MS is on the left btw.

If marines relocate to 1XP, they have good base for holding double, 1RP and 2RP, this enables them to keep pressuring 2XP, and make a big hit against A1XP.
If marines relocate to 2XP, they can secure 2 Res, and fight at double, making double a choke point. Double only becomes a choke point, when 2XP is held, and is the only way to really make it hard for aliens to get 3 hives.

There are other tactics I can see, but I think this map layout will create some really interesting and fast paced gameplay. This map I believe really opens up for the chances for the commanders to succeed or fail. Making it potentially a good competitive map, which is the ultimate plan. We'll see how that pans out.

As for current progress, I am on my 3rd or 4th restart, I am working hard on adjusting the grey box layout to get timings right at the moment. I have grey-boxed most of the left half of the map, as well as top tech point. I will flip the left half, and just edit, rather than starting from scratch on the right, but it will be heavily edited and different in shape and theme.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Theme</b></span>

When I get to the point of putting the theme into the map, it is built on an asteroid in a unique belt of frontier space. This belt is a unique discovery, as the asteroids were found to not be frozen, but to actually have molten metal cores. An action it turns out, caused by the pull of the various plants around the belt. Facilities were set up on the larger asteroids to extract the molten metals. The surface of these asteroids is extremely toxic, and as such all buildings are encased in an outer biodome. This allows me an outside area like crevice at summit, so lerks can fly, JP's can hover, and skulks can walk on invisble walls, plausibly. The complex is built into a mountain side. The left side and the top will be outside of the mountain, with views outside, light, ambient suns through windows and fans, etc, while the right hand side will be the processing/extraction side and will be in the mountain, no natural ambient light, all artificial light.

This is my plan so far. As I am at a very early stage in grey boxing, and significant changes or suggestions to the layout/connections, general ideas (not the theme, that is a looonng way off), of this map, let me know.

Evil_bOb1 · January 2012

Here are some lessons I learned on creating and playing on turtle. Playing your map is essential as there are things you imagine that just wont happen and other things that will work even better than you imagined. So in that sense build it up slowly but surely, try to get a nice playable version first, focusing on gameplay and then as the versions build up you can concentrate more on design and details. The first games on the map won't work as you imagine but will be an extremely valuable resource to move in the direction you want.

Fast gameplay.

For this the layout is essential and has to be designed as a whole. If you design it in a room to room fashion connected by corridors, the corridors will act like chokepoints between the control of the rooms. The more you eliminate corridors, the more the fight will be in the rooms. So try to imagine your map like one big space divided into smaller spaces. Eliminating the feel of boxed rooms and creating flow of spaces is something I learned by studying modern architecture and is an ongoing learning process. It is very difficult to achieve but very rewarding so try to put your consciousness on that and you will get some understanding.

Starting well is essential for that, so its good you've started your greybox several times till you get the first support you are happy to work with. Start simple with the basic ideas and add you ideas as you go along.

Also try to influence yourself from RTS maps, see how they create flow and barriers to create the situation of the map.

As of now i imagine your starting position are at the bottom. Even if it turns around it is very linear. You have a primary arc going from MS to AS though Double and a secondary arc where the other tps and rts are situated. It is a very unique layout which will surely provide interesting gameplay. The double rt will see a lot of movement so will surely benefit from being a pretty open room with a lot of access to all the other parts of the map.

Relocation

This is something I've tried but wasn't able to accomplish as I would of liked. I would say it is nice to plan places where the marines could relocate but don't count on the fact that marines should relocate for a good game. Marines would much rather have a good base than be obliged to relocate as it makes them lose time and resources. The tech point system is good to spice up starting positions but doesn't really make relocation an easy thing to do.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

Thanks for the reply Evil_bOb :)

I am designing my map with box rooms, and concentrating on connecting them through the primary routes. The primary routes are nice and extravagant, very open, designed for an onos to charge all the way around, or a fade to blink all the way round, without hinderance. You describe it as two seperate arcs, but really it is a single circle:

MS>M1RP>M1XP>M2RP>2XP>A2RP>A1XP>A1RP>AS>DBL>MS

The other primary routes need to be there because have you ever tried playing a game on a circle? The choke points are amazing, lol :)

At the moment all the work is going into the primary routes between the boxes. I am grey boxing, there is no texturing or advanced geometry, Just the shapes to create the flow, once the flow of the primary routes is done, including into and out of the rooms, then I will work on adding in the secondary routes, and shaping the rooms, then it'll get a few basic textures and some lights for very early alpha flow testing.

Once flow issues are solved, and the movement is nice, then I'll add some detail geometry, props and textures, then release to test in Beta format. I expect a testing alpha release in a month or so, beta, probably at least 6 months, final is targeted for a year, but if it all falls into place sooner, well, I won't complain :)

Current walking times from latest test are:

MS>1RP - 23s
1RP>1XP - 22s
1XP>2RP - 25s
2RP>2XP - 27s

It takes 1m37s to walk from MS>2XP, this is point to point. You can remove a couple of seconds from eachsegment if it's just room-room measurement. Is this too long?

Looking at those times, 2RP>2XP needs to be about 10s shorter, bearing in mind my game flow, which is a shame as I think that is architecturally the best part of the map :P

Marines don't need to relocate for a good game, but a there is a risk/reward element if they choose to relocate, 1XP reloc is slightly risky and slightly rewarding, 2XP is more risky and more rewarding. The map should encourage relocation options, but you are absolutely right it should never force relocation.

Wilson · January 2012

Here's some stuff I have been working on. I'm not sure if I will ever finish it as I tend to only map when I feel like it which isn't very often. I also have difficulty detailing and often keep deleting things that I'm not happy with. I've boxed out the marine side of the map up to the middle 3 tech points, alien side is still to be done. I'm not looking for any feedback - everything is still very much WIP and subject to change a lot.

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/kurSGl.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Here's my original layout plan:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/9ssBql.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Soul_Rider · January 2012

Keep at it wilson!

Constantly re-working, frustration because it's not good enough, starting from scratch numerous times, these kinds of things are all essential in the creation of a good map. Throw in a few editor crashes, losing a few back-ups, and you'll be right on target :)

Mapping, like anything, should really only be done when you are in the mood, but sometimes, you have to get yourself in the mood.

I've been mapping on and off for a few years now, started with NS1 in 2004, and have only got as far as released beta's for my maps, never quite made it to the final release, but I plan to change it with my NS2 maps. I have a new level of acceptance, even enjoyment, of the constant re-working that I have to do, as I realise, all change is ultimately for the better.

Keep it up and keep us posted :)

zombiehellmonkey · January 2012

Soul, how I started designing my map was I actually based it on Counterstrike map, De_Dust, and changed it starting from there, adding a few extra rooms to cope with the different gameplay dynamic of NS2. Most people won't recognize it as De_Dust because it has grown to develop its own character and feel, also I did it from memory rather than copy it straight out (I've played that level so much I don't need to trace it!). I hope when the testing begins it will have the same style of fast gameplay action, focused on player skill and the ability for all teams to move fluidly around the level.

BJHBnade_spammer · January 2012

what programs are you guys using to make those? templates

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Jan 9 2012, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>what programs are you guys using to make those? templates</div>

I drew the squares and circle in the spark top view, made it full view and took a screenshot, then drew on it in paint.net :)

The initial designs were done on paper :)

Soul_Rider · January 2012

Can't think of anywhere else to post this, do we have any modellers out there who could make one of these for me?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/Fuel_Water_Storage_Tanks_250x250.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

I'm looking for it to be approx 128 units width/height of the container part, 256 units long, and an additional stand height of 64 units, so total model size 128Wx256Lx192H. I'd like to use it as water storage in game, I plan to have a few of them in one room.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

zombiehellmonkey · January 2012

Use a placeholder for now, I wouldn't start thinking about props until you have your map tested.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Jan 10 2012, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Use a placeholder for now, I wouldn't start thinking about props until you have your map tested.</div>

I am dude, just putting a request out there to get one made. I'm not in a hurry.

I need to put some things in context here. I read a lot (and probably misinterpret a lot) of forum post by mappers advising don't worry about the theme when starting the map, and to a degree this is true, but to completely ignore theme is impossible, because you always have ideas around them, As regards the model, all of the maps I make will be based on locations where water is not naturally occurring, and will all need a storage tank anyway :)

When making NS maps, there are a few personal NS atmospheric rules I stick to. One of them is that all primary routes/rooms are main usage common traffic areas, and all secondary routes are maintenance type routes, I currently have four 'rooms' in my map that are catwalk based and need obstructions, a water tank was the first thing that came into my head, and it made sense. Which room becomes water storage is a whole different issue :) The prop need is borne out of a neccessity that is going to be common for me, and to be fair, more models for the NS2 reportoire are never going to hurt :)

zombiehellmonkey · January 2012

Okay, it's a fairly simple prop to model and texture map, I could do it for you when/if I have time in future :) I'll be working on a few of my own props too.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Techniques and Ideas to aid Natural Selection 2 Mapping</b></span>

Mapping for Natural Selection (1 or 2) is a unique mapping experience. There is no game that I have mapped for that requires such tightly ruled and beautiful maps. Making the map visually up to standard is hard enough, but developing for the gameplay is a nightmare! :)

I have a solid mapping technique that I use in most games and it works, as the maps require very little re-working, when compared in context with the NS universe. NS is unique in that re-working your map is a constant ongoing process. Even after the games full release, it won't stand still, and with the plan for NS2 to become the most moddable game created, you could be re-working your map for another 10 years or so. From this we know our workflow needs to be as modular as possible, to make things as easy as possible.

There isn't a lot that can be done to reduce the time spent re-working a fully developed map, but there are flows we can use to reduce the impact of reworking the WIP map.

I started off NS mapping, back in 2004 using the room by room technique, never got a single map completed, as I made maps for cs and zm room by room didn't work, as there is no real room detail, so I worked more on the flow of the map. TF2 presented a whole new list of challenges, and I settled on a part flow, part detail method, it provided the best balance and fastest overall progress, part of the layout, start detailing, then do a bit more of the layout and flick backwards and forwards. With the amount of reworking required in NS because of timings, wall climbing, LOS issues etc, and the fact it is still in development, I wanted to be able to get the general basics of the map, layout and timing, done as quickly as possible. Mapping in NS2 up to now had been attempting to grey-box the entire map, then test for timings etc, but it really wasn't working, I spent more time re-working than building, even at this early stage.

As I was working on the 5th restart of the map I mention in the opening thread, and after my primary routes were in, I had an idea to do the secondary routes slightly differently.

I mapped out the secondary route between 2 locations with the catwalk models. No rooms around them, unrestricted, placed a couple of doors at relevant points then jumped in game and tested them. Here is the editor view of the area, note the room now has a box under it.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/celeb.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

I had to re-work this once to get the timing right, and that was it, but the great thing is at this early stage, big changes mean I just delete the room box below the walkway, and re-arrange the walkway as needed, with relatively little hassle. It can also be copy/pasted and edited in the map, looking completely unique.

This then gave me an idea about taking this concept from scratch. I began work on a 2nd map, and in 30mins, the map is more complete than the first one which has had 45 hours of my time so far!

This map has the entire primary route layout down, all res nodes and tech points in place holder positions, but the timings to the centre of the rooms, as the routes pass through are all worked out and correct. I have added a few doors on the main tech rooms to give me some guidelines for the development of the rooms, and this took 30 mins.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

The walkways then will get subdivided into rooms, and the player flow through each room then gets worked out, this is when you add the curves and start building the rooms around the paths. You know your routes and timings are already fine before you add your first wall. This ensures that the most annoying issue to fix in the fully detailed map is gone, the need to add/delete rooms and shift the map.

Let me know what you think of the approach. I hope to refine it, but I can't believe the time I have saved to get to the point where I have all tech rooms in their places and all primary routes patched in and timed. This makes iterations of ideas so quick and simple, I hope you find it as much use as I did. Of course, if I just open up a 2nd editor and copy paste those secondary routes in, I might have a fully routed and timed map in less than 1 hours work :) I think it's taken me longer to work on this post than on the 2nd map.

To make things a little easier I use a rough guide of 256units = 1sec to help with timing while laying out the map in the first place, and have an idea of time I want between each section.

=====EDIT======

Here is a quick paint.net mock up of how the rooms could be built around the paths to create the flow, blue boxes are secondary rooms.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

==========RE-EDIT============

Ok here is the current WIP of ns2_impact using this method. In a 7 hour period which has included typing up this post and various other bits, food and tea breaks, I am now at the stage below. It is almost the complete layout, I just need to add in the secondary routes in the top two quadrants, then make a few last timing checks, before putting in the basic geometry for the map. This really is a quick process for completing the entire map layout. I need to do a bit more testing, each hive location, except double, should have the hive just siegeable from outside one primary route door, and the res node just siegeable from right outside the other primary route.

Do we have a siege range model or entity that shows us the range of a siege device?

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact3.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Once I've got that down I'll start with the geometry and some basic textures and look to release as an alpha test. Let me know what you think of the workflow process. Do you have any tips or suggestions that could speed it up?

Dghelneshi · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Do we have a siege range model or entity that shows us the range of a siege device?</div>
ARCs have a range of 900 units, according to the mapping guidelines, so you'd need to make a circle with that as radius as I don't remember any other option for doing things like that.

Other than that, really great post!
I might even get to work on a map based on that technique because I tend to be excruciatingly slow at everything I do.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Jan 11 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>ARCs have a range of 900 units, according to the mapping guidelines, so you'd need to make a circle with that as radius as I don't remember any other option for doing things like that.

Other than that, really great post!
I might even get to work on a map based on that technique because I tend to be excruciatingly slow at everything I do.</div>

Damn, I had 700 units in my head for some reason, oh never mind, moving the tech points and res nodes aren't too difficult :)

Me too, as I said I have put 45 hours into the last map and don't have any completed sections. I am working through this new map for a bit, then I will go back to the first one I was working on with my refined technique and see if I can get that done any quicker :)

Going to try and develop both maps and see if I can produce something worthwhile.

Dghelneshi · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 11 2012, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Damn, I had 700 units in my head for some reason, oh never mind, moving the tech points and res nodes aren't too difficult :)</div>
You should probably check it ingame before doing anything drastic. The mapping guidelines are from October '10, although I don't think they've changed the range.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

OK, work is coming on slowly.. mainly waiting for inspiration.

During development I have noticed a new issue. Here's is a shot of my current WIP to help explain:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact4.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

I have noticed that the centre tech point is not big enough. There is a simple solution, and that is to move back the connecting arms to double, move the secondary routes away from double a bit, and expand double.

But I also had a thought which could be interesting, and that is to abandon the guidelines completely, and remove the central tech point, leaving just a double res node and 4 tech points with their own res.

While we await Onos this might provide a more fast-paced gameplay, but would require a lot of testing at the very early alpha/greybox stage to make it as balanced as possible.

Let me know what you think. I could theoretically do both, but with my first map idea still to go back to, I don't want to get stuck doing too many versions of this map :)

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<u><b><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">Issues with Random Spawns</span></b></u>

There are a number of issues that have been brought up, around the mapping problems caused by random spawns. I thought I'd share a few points on my understanding, and a potential solution I have come up with.

First of all it should be made clear that random spawns are not mandatory, and any combination of random or fixed spawns may be used, entirely at the choice of the mapper. You could even specify a fixed start for aliens and random spawns for marines, in a complete reversal of the old NS way.

Ok, that's fine, but if maps are going to use random spawns properly for each team, there are important mapping/gameplay considerations. A couple of examples:

Marine starts must have no vents, but alien starts must have vent access.

Alien rooms needs to be more claustrophobic and filled, marine starts need to be more open and easily defended.

Straight away these are obvious gameplay considerations that make truly random spawns difficult. I have come up with a potential solution to this.

My plan is that each tech point will have one fairly large vent opening, that is not visible from any entrances to the room, but is visible within the room. It must offer cover getting to it, but the vent itself must not be directly covered from view once you are in the room. The vent then split to go to each of the routes into the room. they should be there as a flanking route for the aliens to get out and defend their base.

Using the power node lighting as the trigger, I set up the alien lighting first, this detracts from the visiblility of the vent, I don't make the room dark, but make the focus of the any lighting slightly obscure the vent, so aliens have further cover around the vent when they are in control. When the power node goes up, the lighting is made so it highlights the vent very specifically, making it noticeable and clearly visible to the marines. This enables aliens to still have the vents, but limit the effectiveness of them when the marines have the area.

I really like the options open to mappers with the random spawns. The possibilities are endless, and promote many different gameplay ideas. I just wish I could map faster to make more use of the variety of choices available :)

Dghelneshi · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 16 2012, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>My plan is that each tech point will have one fairly large vent opening, that is not visible from any entrances to the room, but is visible within the room. It must offer cover getting to it, but the vent itself must not be directly covered from view once you are in the room. The vent then split to go to each of the routes into the room. they should be there as a flanking route for the aliens to get out and defend their base.</div>
One problem with this approach could be lerks constantly sitting in the vent, sniping the base and going back when there's any sort of danger coming in.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Jan 16 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>One problem with this approach could be lerks constantly sitting in the vent, sniping the base and going back when there's any sort of danger coming in.</div>

Thats why the vent is open and well lit. Turrets can be aimed at it, and the tech point will not be in front of the vent, the vent would preferably be on the opposite side of the room to the tech point. Making it so things like turrets and standard marine fire can hit the vent. I know it will be difficult to balance, but currently if there are no vents, as in Sub Access on summit, the Aliens have no way to get out of the hive, which means it's a death trap.

For example, if SA is alien hive, marines only need to keep rushing with their basic rifles and pistols, and they can get the hive down in the first few minutes by waves of attacks. The aliens have to rush out to meet them face first, which puts them at a big disadvantage. To my mind, the possibility of a lerk snipe has to be limited, but lets not forget, late game the JP's can use the same vent systems for sniping :)

Soul_Rider · January 2012

I've released a Fade Mod in the modding section. This mod makes fade the default spawn class. Saves a lot of hassle for testing fade movement in the map.

Link to forum topic:

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115963" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115963</a>

Alasaphel · January 2012

I'm still in the blocking out phase, and I'm tearing parts of this map out and replacing them very quickly, but I'd like to kinda share an idea and see what you all think.

I've been in several games now where the marines just can't get anything done. Now, this isn't to say that there is a balance issue or anything, but it does seem to point to a greater difficulty in marines getting their second resource point over the aliens. I have been struggling with how to fix this for a while now, and the only way that I can think of from a mapping stand point is to basically "give" both teams two bases from the start.

I have an image that kinda describes what I want, there is a lot of room on the right for labeling and such once I figure out what I want each room to be.

[attachment=36043:ns_labs_concept.png]

With this pic, the top and the bottom dots are the starts. As you can see there is an IMMEDIATE expansion right next to the start. This would give the marines a no-hassle upgrade and provide them with steady income. This will give the aliens (who also have this immediate expansion) some benefit as well, but I feel that this gives the marines a better fighting chance.

Also, please note the style of the levels. Larger, more complex individual rooms with very little snake-y mid passages. This is definitely on purpose, and the vents that connect everything will serve their purpose, but the design is to allow the possibility of ambush by aliens, but the general control of locations by marines. Keep in mind that from the start fades *will* be available, so as soon as a kill streak occurs, you have ground troops for the aliens to combat the greater sight lines for the marines.

If everything is even, it should be a mad dash for the center and right points, and the skirmishes should occur in the mid four rooms. Pushes are most likely only going to be possible once the Onos is in for aliens, and the map is definitely designed around that fact.

Thoughts?

Soul_Rider · January 2012

The point about giving both teams a free upgrade is made in the mapping guidelines, it makes sense to do.

You advise that fades will be available from the start, you realise this means you need to write and release a mod as well as a map. Releasing just the map won't get fades available at the start. People will only be able to play the map if they are willing to download the mod, and find a server online which is hosting it rather than vanilla NS.

The map is a great starting point, just work on making the map work for NS2, you can use any map with any mod that gets made for NS2 anyway (subject to changing relelvant entities).

Soul_Rider · January 2012

Here is the latest design for my map. It has undergone a few changes but it is essentially an old NS1 map idea I had, upgraded to NS2, combined with the impact map I started on part way through this thread.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact5.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Key:

1 - Random MS
2 - Random AS
3 - Double Res
4 - Primary Routes
5 - Secondary Routes

There are 3 random starting hives for Aliens, ala NS, but there are now 2 possible MS locations.
Distances:
All Tech points are equal distance from Double (give or take a few seconds)
You are never more than 2x(TP>Double) distance from any tech point on the map, and never more than TP>Dbl distance from at least 1/2 the map.

Yes some games could force a close-ish spawn, but moving out across the map is a safe option for both teams if they don't want early confrontation. Teams could also spawn quite far apart, to give a nice gentle opening to the game, where double is an optional fighting ground.

I'll keep things updated as I go along :)

AssasinxXx · January 2012

Hey Soul! I've decided that for once i will get involved with a mapping community (Never have in the past) Anyways i drew out a quick layout copy of my level in progress, and wanted to get some feedback from the bunch of you.
<a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q229/Redroniksre/?action=view&current=Ns2_axonLayout.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q229/Redroniksre/th_Ns2_axonLayout.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

Soul_Rider · January 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AssasinxXx @ Jan 26 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey Soul! I've decided that for once i will get involved with a mapping community (Never have in the past) Anyways i drew out a quick layout copy of my level in progress, and wanted to get some feedback from the bunch of you.
<a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q229/Redroniksre/?action=view&current=Ns2_axonLayout.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q229/Redroniksre/th_Ns2_axonLayout.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a></div>

That is a nice layout design! I see two potential issues straight away though. I know the central tech is a non-start point, but whoever starts at the bottom has 2 res and a technode (center), all within one rooms travel distance. Secondly, the random spawn likes to put both teams next to each other, so the left most and the bottom techs will see a lot of short battles, unless you assign both those techs as marines or alien only starts, and the other two for the other team, that then only leaves the bottom tech advantage issue.

Although saying that, Charlie did point out he doesn't want all the spawns to be exactly the same, as this kind of negates random spawns in the first place, so it may be ok. Just remember to look out for those issues in early playtesting. Looks good though, can't wait to see it develop :)

Just remember, mapping takes a very long time too, so don't get frustrated and give up :)

AssasinxXx · January 2012

Yes i could see that issue arising, I didn't want to make the map too big so i gave myself a minimum 1 room distance between Tech points, my previous design had many more Hallways instead of rooms, but after reading a bit from EB and Ns2_Turtle about rooms instead of hallways, i changed a bit around, Ive still got a lot of geometry work to do, now I'm just pondering how to do play testing.

Soul_Rider · January 2012

Simple testing like run times to hives etc you test yourself. Have a run around the map with all alien life-forms, I have a mapper tool called fade mod released on the forums. The mod spawns you as a fade, but also makes it free to evolve to any other lifeform.

Once you have the basic testing done, you release an alpha, without finished textures etc, to test the layout, people playtest it, then you make changes according to the feedback :)

Soul_Rider · January 2012

Just having some thoughts over the last few days about map sizes.

I honestly believe, once we've got JP's, Onos and speed boosts with shift hive, we are going to find that maps like summit and tram are too small. I know mineshaft is in development and is supposed to be a much bigger map, to take advantage of this, but I have been thinking about my own options for changing the map should my fears be proved right.

I have designed a fairly simple expansion of my map, adding an additional 4 res nodes. 1 free to the alien team, 1 free to marines, and 2 contested. This concerns me slightly.

Maps as suggested by the guidelines should be tech points, without res nodes, apart from the starting spawns. With random spawns, this now requires every tech node to have a RT in the room, like NS. To fill out the map, you have a lot of empty rooms, which do nothing other than create areas for people to pass through. Placing additional res nodes to increase the size/make use of space, following my plan above, means my map would turn into a 5TP 11RT map. This means the game is broken res flow wise because of too much easily available res.

From a mapping perspective, the wishes and desires of the Devs are up in the air. Design decisions in the game are changing constantly and breaking perfectly good maps and ideas. All mappers currently making maps would like a shot at being an official map, but without an idea of where the game is going, or at least where the Devs want it to go, this is a struggle.

My own current concerns with the mapping system include:

Map sizes
Power Grid (including but not limited to)
- Power Point's being tied to location entities - I want power to span more than one room, I don't want the name to.
- Full lighting in unsocketed rooms.
Tech/Res - Apparently we can use whatever spawn system we like and still become an official map. All the official maps currently use random spawns, even though the one's I play on - summit and tram, are obviously broken by random spawns. This tells me a map has to use random spawns to be official, despite what is being said. This means an NS1 style map, with res nodes between hives as well as in them, to remove the chances of an empty map. Unfortunately, with the new res model in NS2, making a map with 5 TP, and a few nodes between, produce an abundance of wealth. From experience and discussions, generally aliens need to hold 4 rts, marines 3, to progress at an efficient rate. If you want to ensure fighting over one node to control this flow of wealth, you can only have 6 res nodes in total. 6 places of interest on a map the size NS2 maps are going to be just does not make for a good gaming experience.

Charlie and the Devs obviously have an idea in mind of the experience they are trying to create, but the mappers are more confused than ever. NS1 mapping guidelines were strict, but the power of the level editor enabled you to create lots of different game experiences like siege etc, purely on a mapping level, this enabled a lot of free thought to go into maps.

The Devs started out with strict guidelines for NS2, but their own changes of code and game design have broken the guidelines, they are no longer valid. There is not the level of flexibility in spark yet for mappers to create a different experience ala NS1 siege, so mappers really need to know the thoughts behind the game design plan before we can feel confident and really move on with our maps.

I know I am not the only mapper frustrated by this out there, all I want is some clarification on what the developers REALLY want from a map, so I don't keep wasting hundreds of hours on things that aren't going to work in the long run. I think there also needs to be a discussion between the mapping community members, to find out common issues that could be looked at to make the whole mapping experience easier.

This is not a criticism, this is just me sharing things I'd like to see addressed, and here's to a clearer mapping future :)

Soul_Rider · January 2012

WIP Update:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact6.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Soul_Rider · January 2012

I was going to post another WIP shot, but when I showed a friend he asked if I'd had to use a back-up!

Yes, large parts of my map are holes, but it's not as bad as it seems, I have finished up greyboxing one of the hives. That's not enough to release, but I will post some screenshots. Remember this is the basic geometry. More detail will come after testing. When the rest of the map is up to this standard, it will be ready for alpha testing. Ignore the textures, and the lighting too :)

Just imagine how nice those shapes could look with the right textures and lighting :)

Hive 3 Res Node:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-01-30_00001.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Inching around the corner into hive:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-01-30_00002.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Standing in hive:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-01-30_00003.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Turn left out of opposite hive entrance and turn into.....

OHNOES!!!

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-01-30_00004.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Sneak past OhNoes while he is sleeping and take a picture of his better side:

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-01-30_00005.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

That's all folk's ;)

The Pre-Map Thread

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