The Pre-Map Thread

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  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    It might also be because it is still a greybox, so you don't have much perception of scale or movement from verticals and details.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    As I'm in my mapping mid-session interval, I thought I'd post an update of the GreyBox overview. It's is definitely coming along nicely, but as the map is so big, an age of work never seems to amount to much :)

    <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-04-04_00002.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    OK, so I did a little bit more mapping, and added commander cameras. Now I have been able to test cyst abuse, well partially, most of the map isn't lit, so I can't see what I'm doing but I can go by the mini map :)

    <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-04-05_00006.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    I have encountered 1 drfiter pathing issue and 1 hive placement issue at Power core (hive can only be built from left side of TP, not right side :P).

    Also I have discovered 1 element of cyst abuse, jumping from the walkway between open theatre and rec reception into storage.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    I was talking to Grissi who has started a map and needed some few tips to get started so I created this quick tutorial on how I work with the line tool. If you reproduce these pics it will help you get a feel for what one can do with the line tool.

    <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/g1.zip" target="_blank">Quick Line tool tutorial done for Grissi </a>
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    That is a magical tutorial Evil_bOb1 :) You have an excellent understanding of 3d meshes for sure :)

    Thank you for the contribution :)
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/d1.zip" target="_blank">Same kind of tutorial I did for Grissi I just did for Drakenns basing myself on one of his rooms, level file included.</a>

    If you try to redo this, understanding the concepts is more important than recreating it vertex for vertex. Initiative is the key!
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    Great Tutorial Evil_bOb1 :)

    ---EDIT---------------------------------------------
    Here's a not tutorial! I thought I'd stumbled across something no-one else knew, unfortunately further testing on an official map showed issues I just couldn't see on my grey box map :) This is a how not to do occlusion geometry.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Occlusion Geometry Tutorial</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    This is the room which I wish to enclose in occlusion geometry:

    <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/OccGeo1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    This is how I enclose it in Occlusion Geometry:

    <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/OccGeo2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Note: I have not left a gap for the door, I have not modelled the geometry of the room, and yet it works perfectly.

    Occlusion Geometry is NON-SOLID. This means that you do not need to make an elaborate or detailed mesh, and you do not need to allow doorways. I experience a minimum of 300 and a maximum of 1800 draw calls anywhere out side the box, looking toward a heavily modelled room nearby. When inside the box, looking at the same area, I get a minimum of 40 and a max of 83 draw calls, and I can still walk easily from room to room. In fact, when I walk out of the room on the far side the draw calls jump from 83 to over 500 the moment I step beyond the occlusion geometry.

    This method is very effective and much easier to implement than tightly modelling the geometry of doorways. I placed my box at a 16 unit distance around the room, but scaling it in so it fits the room border would be even more efficient on draw calls.

    :P Really just want to ask the question..

    why are official mappers making their Occlusion Geometry so complex when this technique works so well, and acts kind of like the area portal brush did in goldsrc? Am I missing something?

    EDIT

    OK, after further testing it turns out you get room pop-in by this method. Seems the occlusion geometry works extremely well :)
  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1926734:date=Apr 18 2012, 04:00 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 18 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the question is why are official mappers making their Occlusion Geometry so complex when this technique works so well, and acts kind of like the area portal brush did in goldsrc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Did you try out how lighting will work in this? In many maps, I can see issues with a room being fully lit from a distance and suddenly changing to the red emergency light when I go closer or to a specific angle of the doorway. (e.g. seeing flight control lights from comp lab hallway)
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Interesting point, I will look into that, :)
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Lol, just tested and got room pop-in, haha, seems the occlusion geometry is very effective. Ignore the above post :)
  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    That's what I would have guessed you would test in the first place. :P I'd also make it more obvious in the post for the ingenuous reader that this "tutorial" wasn't really a successful one. :P
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Members
    I've been working on my map since January, and I've got the greybox done. Right now I'm doing a first detail pass so establish some early themes. I want a strong first impression of the map. I work hard to design it intelligently and have developed some good theory.

    One thing I try to do with my map is provide each team with a good room to defend a techpoint at. I do not like having to defend a techpoint in the techpoint room, things like rushing hives or chairs are a little too effective in pubs. I try to curb this by giving each tech point a good buffer.

    Another aspect of my design revolves around making larger spaces work for both teams. I have a good mix of claustrophobia and open spaces. I make tight spaces work a bit better by providing alternative paths that are right near by. For larger rooms I try to avoid the feeling of being in a square box, I try to layer in vertical gameplay by providing paths both below and above the room. I try to provide cover not just on the ground with props and walls, but through partical effects, atmospherics, and darkness.

    I really try to focus on having logical map functions. Each room is logical in a sci-fi sense, and driven in inspiration by a backstory I write about it. My entire map has a story that will make sense and explain things like why the base exists, why nobody is there, how the aliens got there. Beyond that I also try to apply logic to the layout, the most bottom level room is the cryo-lab, it's very cold, it's supplied with water clearly from other map sections. The waterfall I have in my map is actually being harvested for energy. I have under water river system cooling servers down. My 'biodome' using a hydroponic ebb and flow system made from an underground river as well. The highest map section is a promontory, it acts as ventilation for the entire map. You can hear the wind being pumped down, and you can see how it draws air in from the outside.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    edited April 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1926734:date=Apr 18 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 18 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why are official mappers making their Occlusion Geometry so complex when this technique works so well, and acts kind of like the area portal brush did in goldsrc? Am I missing something?

    EDIT

    OK, after further testing it turns out you get room pop-in by this method. Seems the occlusion geometry works extremely well :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Other than the "pop-in" effect you described which means that you need to make openings between areas, the tighter your occlusion mesh is, the more objects that are likely to be occluded and not drawn. If you leave a big hole in your mesh between rooms, you're likely to end up with one room being drawn even though you are in the other one. If you bring the mesh right in and fit it around the door between the rooms, much more will be blocked off.

    Obviously, you have to balance this against how much time you can spend on it, but the tighter your mesh, the better your performance is likely to be.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    Another issue is geometry might be rendered behind one occlusion wall but props won't, if there was props in the corridor you wouldn't see them from the room and they would pop-up instantly once you cross that occlusion barrier.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I tested by putting OccGeo across the entrance to Flight control from computer lab. The whole of Flight Control geometry was not there until I crossed the occlusion geometry into Flight, then the whole of flight appeared. It was amusing :)
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1926786:date=Apr 18 2012, 05:50 PM:name=zastels)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zastels @ Apr 18 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been working on my map since January, and I've got the greybox done. Right now I'm doing a first detail pass so establish some early themes. I want a strong first impression of the map. I work hard to design it intelligently and have developed some good theory.

    One thing I try to do with my map is provide each team with a good room to defend a techpoint at. I do not like having to defend a techpoint in the techpoint room, things like rushing hives or chairs are a little too effective in pubs. I try to curb this by giving each tech point a good buffer.

    Another aspect of my design revolves around making larger spaces work for both teams. I have a good mix of claustrophobia and open spaces. I make tight spaces work a bit better by providing alternative paths that are right near by. For larger rooms I try to avoid the feeling of being in a square box, I try to layer in vertical gameplay by providing paths both below and above the room. I try to provide cover not just on the ground with props and walls, but through partical effects, atmospherics, and darkness.

    I really try to focus on having logical map functions. Each room is logical in a sci-fi sense, and driven in inspiration by a backstory I write about it. My entire map has a story that will make sense and explain things like why the base exists, why nobody is there, how the aliens got there. Beyond that I also try to apply logic to the layout, the most bottom level room is the cryo-lab, it's very cold, it's supplied with water clearly from other map sections. The waterfall I have in my map is actually being harvested for energy. I have under water river system cooling servers down. My 'biodome' using a hydroponic ebb and flow system made from an underground river as well. The highest map section is a promontory, it acts as ventilation for the entire map. You can hear the wind being pumped down, and you can see how it draws air in from the outside.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thats a very good idea zastels. Placing buffer rooms for battles makes the fighting much more interesting. It will be very interesting to see how that develops.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    Here is my maps current overview. I know it looks like I've deleted a lot of the map, but in fact I have turned a lot of the newer greybox into occlusion geometry and I am slowly filling in the room geometry inside the space. As a result the map is completely connected (except for section at the very bottom, and the rooms either side of the top res node,) in geometry in the editor, but in the game almost half the map is missing :P.

    <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impactoverview240412.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • CetmeCetme Join Date: 2010-10-05 Member: 74325Members
    edited May 2012
    Hi all,

    here the plan of my map, which I want to build, but ...

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/OprmZ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Now I have a qustion, is it possible to built a map with a geometry like this? Or could I forget this idea (which I couldn't ...)? :/

    I tried it a little bit with the editor but at the moment it is very frustrating.

    Greetz Cetme
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    That's a great looking map design you have there Cetme. It is very possible to make circular rooms and curved hallways. My map above has a lot of curved designs in it. There are a few tutorials to help with your mapping, particularly from Psykoman on curved hallways, Evil_Bob1 on detail geometry and occlusion geometry, and FMPone on general spark/mapping.

    It seems to me from your design, you have a few areas with level over level play. You do need to make sure the commander is able to get to the floor below the top level to support players.

    Also I notice you are 6 TP and 10 Res node, Like my own and many other maps. Personally I think part of the the reason NS2 is unbalanced at the moment is the oversupply of res nodes in maps. The mapping guidelines advise 1/2 more RN's than TP's, yet so many maps have more Res Nodes, because of random spawns and the requirement of having a relatively easy node to defend at each spawn point. I really think that res supply rate should be an algorithm based on ratio of TP's - RN's, but I bring this up purely to mention that you may find the gameplay a little quick and unbalanced with so many res nodes, so playtesting will be very important in the early stages.

    I would assume from the missing RN's between the 2 right most spawns and the remaining that the marines spawn on the right side of the map, and aliens in the 3 other tp's around the perimeter. Your map layout is actually almost a 90 degree clockwise rotation of my map :) (That is in terms or TP layout and connections to centre TP, not shape or intrisic design :) I bring this up as we may run in to similar issues during the developments of our maps, at least when it comes to gameplay, so we could probably learn from each others problems during the testing phases :)

    The editor is a joy to use once you get used to the best strategies for a situation. Check out the tutorials mentioned, follow them and you will have an amazing understanding and ability with Spark mapping.

    Good Luck with the map, it looks beautiful, I can't wait to see it come to life, although I'd expect it to take a long time, at least a year, maybe even 2 if it's your first map :)
    If you've mapped before, then hopefully a bit less time required :)
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Members
    Cetme, my goodness is that a cool design. It's all so neat and organized. I just want to print it out and put it on my fridge it looks so cool.

    Here is some advice, build with blocks that are divisible by 16 and on the grid. If you're not perfectly consistent with your scaling, you wont be able to recreate your layout, it will be all misshapen and too big or small. When working with circles, it's a good idea to select each vertice it has independently, and move it a bit to snap it back to the grid. This way you can easily line things up, like a wall bisecting into a curved wall.
  • CetmeCetme Join Date: 2010-10-05 Member: 74325Members
    Hi All,

    thx for your words and help @ Soul_Rider and zastels. I still working on the map. I hope I can show you some resulst in a few weeks. ;)

    <i>It seems to me from your design, you have a few areas with level over level play. You do need to make sure the commander is able to get to the floor below the top level to support players.</i>
    <i>by Soul_Rider</i>

    -> There a three areas with level over level (ways). I planed to build them small as possible, in the hope that the commander gets no problems.

    <i>I just want to print it out and put it on my fridge it looks so cool. </i>
    <i>by zastels</i>

    -> Coolio. ;)

    Greetz Cetme
  • LV426-ColonistLV426-Colonist Space Jockey Join Date: 2011-08-05 Member: 114269Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1935401:date=May 11 2012, 07:29 AM:name=Cetme)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cetme @ May 11 2012, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://i.imgur.com/OprmZ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Looks awesome. Good luck.
  • alibialibi Join Date: 2009-11-20 Member: 69445Members
    ^ agreed, the design is great. Just prepare yourself for some headache working with angles like that. Even building rooms on 45 degrees is tough. You might find yourself building a room on the grid elsewhere and moving/rotating it into place. Manage your layers carefully and good luck.
  • fmponefmpone Join Date: 2011-07-05 Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1935401:date=May 11 2012, 08:29 AM:name=Cetme)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cetme @ May 11 2012, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi all,

    here the plan of my map, which I want to build, but ...

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/OprmZ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Now I have a qustion, is it possible to built a map with a geometry like this? Or could I forget this idea (which I couldn't ...)? :/

    I tried it a little bit with the editor but at the moment it is very frustrating.

    Greetz Cetme<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is a gorgeous layout, but you have some unnaceptable bits (super long corridor on the left).

    For that reason I think its a stunning piece of art, and not a good layout :P
  • CetmeCetme Join Date: 2010-10-05 Member: 74325Members
    edited May 2012
    <i>This is a gorgeous layout, but you have some unnaceptable bits (super long corridor on the left).</i>

    It is a concept not the complete finished design. ;)

    Greetz Cetme
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Keep an eye on siege distance as well, I foresee some issues on that with this proposed layout concept :)
  • JanosJanos Join Date: 2002-08-02 Member: 1050Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1935401:date=May 11 2012, 12:29 PM:name=Cetme)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cetme @ May 11 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi all,

    here the plan of my map, which I want to build, but ...

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/OprmZ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Now I have a qustion, is it possible to built a map with a geometry like this? Or could I forget this idea (which I couldn't ...)? :/

    I tried it a little bit with the editor but at the moment it is very frustrating.

    Greetz Cetme<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Good lord almighty, good luck working on that but hell if you can make it work then i'm pretty sure it's safe to say every one here will be impressed.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1936677:date=May 17 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Janos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Janos @ May 17 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good lord almighty, good luck working on that but hell if you can make it work then i'm pretty sure it's safe to say every one here will be impressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Clever use of height variations and cover props makes this very workable, at least I see how it can be made to work in my mind...




    Whether my vision is right is another thing...
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <b>Crates are not the Answer</b>

    With my developer work on my mods, I haven't done much mapping, thus I haven't had many ideas about mapping to add to this thread. Now I have a very important one, as the issue is coming up all too often at the moment.

    Too many maps are being designed with overlong views, that is LOS exceeding the max distance of the engine, so players 'pop' in and out of view. The answer to this on the forums is always crates. <b>Crates are not the answer</b>. This is not a simple rendering vis issue like you get with old half-life maps, this is about limits on the rendering distance in the engine. You need to pile up crates to make sure you completely block line of sight, that is ridiculous.

    Part of the problem is that the mapping guidelines state the need for rooms, and people want to make big rooms, but the view distance is too limited to have big rooms.

    Unfortunately as much as I feel NS2 needs some much bigger maps (my own is massively bigger than mineshaft) the fact of the matter is those rooms all need to be confined spaces in reality. Rooms need to be designed so there is no long LOS. Rooms need to twist and turn like a corridor to break view. Models need to be used to break the view, but as organic parts of the room. If you have a corridor or room that has line of sights that are too long, crates are not the answer, the answer is to redesign the room/corridor.

    Players pop out of view at approx 1536units. 1024+512, this means any LOS must be shorter than this or players beyond it will simply vanish. Looking at some maps, I remember some of those early corridors on kleos too, that are just way over this limit. I cannot emphasise enough how important it is to make sure you keep the LOS under control in the design phase of the map, you will have way too many problems otherwise. I may not be mapping now, but one of the reasons I stopped on the impact map in this thread was that it was just too big, and we are going through view distance issues with the map lunacy too, so I thought it was a good time to post this thread here.

    Creative design is the solution to the problem, thinking outside the box, not using it!!
  • AssasinxXxAssasinxXx Join Date: 2012-01-17 Member: 140983Members
    Just come to check in after being absent for such a long time, i'm loving the work i see going on here, and as an update, i am still working on my map, be it very slowly, but i have dedicated myself to not move on to new projects until this is finish no matter how long! So far ive gotten about half of the room Greybox + Detailed in, Some areas have changed (Now there is a Townish area + A Market, have yet to see how this works gameplay wise but we will see) Anyways keep up the good work everybody!
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