I think the Pixel are style is great, but the problem is that you don't get any graduation between the pixels. There is no anti-aliasing. I think it looks very old school in a shooter that is based on the future.
This totally depends on UWE's stance on the icon style though.
This isn't to say I don't think everything on here is awesome, but I feel it looks odd in an interface that is quite smooth and not abrupt.
The trouble with detail is that you start to loose the silhouette, and then I think you loose the distinction between the icons. It feels like my brain is working harder to decipher the icons. That is just me though.
I think the important thing to remember is that you are not going to be staring at the Minimap all the time. It is literally something you pop up for a second or two that has to communicate everything that is going on to you in a very small period of time.
# Enemy # Upgrades # Location
If you look at the NS1 version, it is actually very complicated and messy. The 32x32 restrictions really is too small (imo) to start playing with detail AND keeping the silhouette nice a clear AND making it appear 'futuristic'.
Having said this, my version would blend like a mother if they are packed together tight, and I have tried different approaches but it always ends up looking a little odd. Maybe there is a compromise between the two.
I do really like Jaweese's, I think it looks great. Again though I have issues with the complexity of the detail. But maybe UWE will have to compromise communicating information to the player with cooler looking icons.
<!--quoteo(post=1826218:date=Jan 22 2011, 03:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2011, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you just add stars instead of text? No stars: first tier. As you upgrade it, you add stars.
Those look really good supernorn! monopolowa, my door sorta looks like that ! :P
I feel like the scale doesn't look right , you can always scale them down from 32x32 though. The command chair, hives, tech points fit great at that size but players and resource nozzles feel abnormally large.
Another suggestion I have is to have a circular ring around player-characters, and a square ring around buildings, and a "diamond" (square offset by 45 degrees) ring around commander-controlled characters. Just makes that process of instant identification that much quicker and easier. The square ring for buildings isn't so important if you have the other two though.
<!--quoteo(post=1826247:date=Jan 22 2011, 05:25 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2011, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another suggestion I have is to have a circular ring around player-characters, and a square ring around buildings, and a "diamond" (square offset by 45 degrees) ring around commander-controlled characters. Just makes that process of instant identification that much quicker and easier. The square ring for buildings isn't so important if you have the other two though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, try working at this scale. It would be very hard to do that AND have an icon in the centre that was recognisable.
However.
I think if it was used for the 16x16 sizes for the commander mini-minimap, that would be better, because I think it is a push to have 16x16 icons that you can identify on the small commander map.
All you need are basic forms on the mini map identifying a structure, alien and marine. If you want more info, then you should be forced to bring up the larger minimap. You can also reference off the larger map. So once you know where and what the structures are, the cluster of triangles/squares/circles that appears on the mini-minimap will be made obvious to you.
I was just thinking something as simple as this: <img src="http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2739/ns2runtehedit.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> but obviously smoother, and with the icons on top of the rings.
Good job, except one thing that keeps bugging me about the majority of these designs is the simple fact that they are outlined with black (or another darker colour). See if you can retain the grey level for the colouring, but change that black to a lighter version of the grey used in the center. I believe such a setup might work better with the minimap as it shows up.
In general, however, I think overly simplified symbols are the way to go - Marines as circles with an arrowhead on one side etc etc, no outlines at all. This would better suit the minimap design. On a similar note, the colour choices (not the fault of the icon designers here) do not work at all with the minimap design provided - Why not keep this minimap style and colour scheme, make all the Marine icons in said colour scheme (central whiteness, subtle outer blue glow) and then for the aliens, you just make the minimap style the same, but the colour scheme to match that of the alien HUD (that bright, fiery orange), and then make the icons for the alien side in this scheme.
This makes a lot more sense considering the HUD design and colour scheming already present in the game - Blue opposes Orange. Rather than having "your side X colour, their side Y colour", have the colour specific to each race (blue for Marine, orange for Alien)... For each team's respective minimaps, the enemies stand out from the background a lot more than the allies!
Wham multiple issues addressed, solved and the whole process made easier by a simple suggestion!
<!--quoteo(post=1826281:date=Jan 22 2011, 01:53 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 22 2011, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the minimap is scaled slightly smaller than it needs to be. Zoom and enhance that minimap!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> With the right combination of algorithms...
There should be enough data to sharpen that up, as long as we have an image enhancer that can bitmap.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1826230:date=Jan 22 2011, 08:34 AM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 22 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mock up time!
Basing this mostly off the NS1 minimap because it was pretty good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
too big of icons? is that 16 x 16? if so maybe the minimap should be slightly larger? idk. all i do know is, two turrets in a room with cc and armory and ip = undefinable clutter.
<!--quoteo(post=1826286:date=Jan 22 2011, 12:16 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Jan 22 2011, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the right combination of algorithms...
There should be enough data to sharpen that up, as long as we have an image enhancer that can bitmap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The cool thing about simple icons like Runteh's is that they can easily be made into simple vector graphics. If the game were to load a .svg and then generate the icon textures during the game/map load, you would get perfectly crisp icons for the multiple sizes required. You could then also add in other sizing options such as an "Icon size" option or different preferences to scale the the icons differently according to your resolution. A .svg minimap to be mipmapped would be cool too but it might require too much work from map creators. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about live rendering the vector graphics (which is probably too expensive) but just generating the icon textures("sprites") during a the initial game/map load.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1826285:date=Jan 22 2011, 11:13 AM:name=Frohman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frohman @ Jan 22 2011, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general, however, I think overly simplified symbols are the way to go - Marines as circles with an arrowhead on one side etc etc, no outlines at all. This would better suit the minimap design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
only for players.. please.. we dont need to be forced to learn what primitive shapes represent what elements! red dots = aliens are ok and blue dots with arrow being marines is okay. but if the CC is a friggin triangle or something... i do not see how this will help any new players (like the thousands that come with steam advertising)
what supernorn is doing is the correct thing. job well done. icons smaller or map bigger. and make it clearer which is a CC and which is an available spot for a CC (They look similar)
not liking the resource nozzle now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The upgraded Hive/CC look like they have been marked as a target or something. A player might think that the command wants them to attack that object or something like that.
A lot of these are great, but I have a couple suggestions as some one who works with iconography designers for consumer electronics company. I think the icons that look like they represent the object from over head are a lot harder to read and understand. It requires the person to have some idea of what the entity looks like from above, which requires a little imagination, and quite a bit of experience with the thing in question. With this in mind I think icons should be a bit more abstract instead of representational, and focus on the key visual identifier for the object it symbolizes.
For example, in the icons above, I can immediately understand the door icons, which show the door not from over head but from the perspective of the player. I think the hive icons which clearly show the tentacles of the hive make it much easier to understand what they are depicting. The fade icon, which clearly shows his claws is clear, I think it should just be a claw symbol.
Th only upside to drawing the icons from an over head view is that it makes showing orientation easier, but is orientation really tactically useful for the minimap, especially over instant readability and learning curve? I guess the choice is yours in the end, but I think clarity is top priority.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1826359:date=Jan 22 2011, 07:00 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 22 2011, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Th only upside to drawing the icons from an over head view is that it makes showing orientation easier, but is orientation really tactically useful for the minimap, especially over instant readability and learning curve? I guess the choice is yours in the end, but I think clarity is top priority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. NS1 I used the minimap primarily for getting that tactical advantage. Being able to see orientation is extremely important to understanding how the fight is progressing in a room and which angles are open. I don't mind needing to learn icons, but orientation needs to be instantly readable because of how quickly that information has to be used. (An alien's class doesn't change mid-battle, so its a lot less important to make it as obvious as orientation)
dude those are great looking. <i>Perfect size</i>. plus i love the arrows of the marines and the easy to see hive symbol. whats that center gold thing? i have no clue. :)
and which are the turrets? i cant tell if there are any turrets?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1826361:date=Jan 22 2011, 08:10 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 22 2011, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Done for tonight, I'll probably finish and tweak the rest tomorrow. Pretty happy with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow! okay so just make the resource towers gray colored so they dont blend in so well with the map color. plus gray denotes unused. once RT in place then you can make it the green one or something. great size and great job. any "90 degree cone" for the marines or turrets?
I went for a simplistic icon approach, which even works without having to use anything but lua files! Here's some that I've already gotten down.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Empty Command Center Turret facing a wall "I thought we just destroyed this a minute ago" Hive Hydra Another Hydra Infantry Por-no wait it's gone "How is that even possible in this build" Onos Giant ball of Drifters Wall of Fire Framerate Vampire Ill-tempered 12 year old many others<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
And here's a mock example of the icons in action: <img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3783/naturalmac2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Constructive criticism welcome
<!--quoteo(post=1826366:date=Jan 23 2011, 12:07 AM:name=eisiger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eisiger @ Jan 23 2011, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I went for a simplistic icon approach, which even works without having to use anything but lua files! Here's some that I've already gotten down.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Empty Command Center Turret facing a wall "I thought we just destroyed this a minute ago" Hive Hydra Another Hydra Infantry Por-no wait it's gone "How is that even possible in this build" Onos Giant ball of Drifters Wall of Fire Framerate Vampire Ill-tempered 12 year old many others<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
And here's a mock example of the icons in action: <img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3783/naturalmac2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Constructive criticism welcome<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those icons are so detailed they basically spell out exactly what each symbol is for me.
I like supernorns alot because they are really clean! They look the best to me. Try putting them in game though and see how they look, that's best way to see, especially when they get scaled down for the commander.
Comments
This totally depends on UWE's stance on the icon style though.
This isn't to say I don't think everything on here is awesome, but I feel it looks odd in an interface that is quite smooth and not abrupt.
The trouble with detail is that you start to loose the silhouette, and then I think you loose the distinction between the icons. It feels like my brain is working harder to decipher the icons. That is just me though.
I think the important thing to remember is that you are not going to be staring at the Minimap all the time. It is literally something you pop up for a second or two that has to communicate everything that is going on to you in a very small period of time.
# Enemy
# Upgrades
# Location
If you look at the NS1 version, it is actually very complicated and messy. The 32x32 restrictions really is too small (imo) to start playing with detail AND keeping the silhouette nice a clear AND making it appear 'futuristic'.
Having said this, my version would blend like a mother if they are packed together tight, and I have tried different approaches but it always ends up looking a little odd. Maybe there is a compromise between the two.
I do really like Jaweese's, I think it looks great. Again though I have issues with the complexity of the detail. But maybe UWE will have to compromise communicating information to the player with cooler looking icons.
<!--quoteo(post=1826218:date=Jan 22 2011, 03:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2011, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you just add stars instead of text?
No stars: first tier. As you upgrade it, you add stars.
*
**
etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll do a second version, it won't take long.
I feel like the scale doesn't look right , you can always scale them down from 32x32 though. The command chair, hives, tech points fit great at that size but players and resource nozzles feel abnormally large.
Seriously, try working at this scale. It would be very hard to do that AND have an icon in the centre that was recognisable.
However.
I think if it was used for the 16x16 sizes for the commander mini-minimap, that would be better, because I think it is a push to have 16x16 icons that you can identify on the small commander map.
All you need are basic forms on the mini map identifying a structure, alien and marine. If you want more info, then you should be forced to bring up the larger minimap. You can also reference off the larger map. So once you know where and what the structures are, the cluster of triangles/squares/circles that appears on the mini-minimap will be made obvious to you.
<img src="http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2739/ns2runtehedit.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
but obviously smoother, and with the icons on top of the rings.
It is also hard to centralise things well, because moving things by a pixel at this size makes a huge difference.
Also the silhouette is lost even more.
Basing this mostly off the NS1 minimap because it was pretty good.
<img src="http://blackmage.org/supernorn/mapmock.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good job, except one thing that keeps bugging me about the majority of these designs is the simple fact that they are outlined with black (or another darker colour). See if you can retain the grey level for the colouring, but change that black to a lighter version of the grey used in the center. I believe such a setup might work better with the minimap as it shows up.
In general, however, I think overly simplified symbols are the way to go - Marines as circles with an arrowhead on one side etc etc, no outlines at all. This would better suit the minimap design. On a similar note, the colour choices (not the fault of the icon designers here) do not work at all with the minimap design provided - Why not keep this minimap style and colour scheme, make all the Marine icons in said colour scheme (central whiteness, subtle outer blue glow) and then for the aliens, you just make the minimap style the same, but the colour scheme to match that of the alien HUD (that bright, fiery orange), and then make the icons for the alien side in this scheme.
This makes a lot more sense considering the HUD design and colour scheming already present in the game - Blue opposes Orange. Rather than having "your side X colour, their side Y colour", have the colour specific to each race (blue for Marine, orange for Alien)... For each team's respective minimaps, the enemies stand out from the background a lot more than the allies!
Wham multiple issues addressed, solved and the whole process made easier by a simple suggestion!
Cheers,
Frohman
P.S. I may make a mockup after.
With the right combination of algorithms...
There should be enough data to sharpen that up, as long as we have an image enhancer that can bitmap.
Added marine and kharaa death icons (I think a splatter theme would work well for the aliens, as well as alien structures)
Basing this mostly off the NS1 minimap because it was pretty good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
too big of icons?
is that 16 x 16?
if so maybe the minimap should be slightly larger? idk. all i do know is, two turrets in a room with cc and armory and ip = undefinable clutter.
There should be enough data to sharpen that up, as long as we have an image enhancer that can bitmap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cool thing about simple icons like Runteh's is that they can easily be made into simple vector graphics. If the game were to load a .svg and then generate the icon textures during the game/map load, you would get perfectly crisp icons for the multiple sizes required. You could then also add in other sizing options such as an "Icon size" option or different preferences to scale the the icons differently according to your resolution. A .svg minimap to be mipmapped would be cool too but it might require too much work from map creators. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about live rendering the vector graphics (which is probably too expensive) but just generating the icon textures("sprites") during a the initial game/map load.
only for players.. please..
we dont need to be forced to learn what primitive shapes represent what elements! red dots = aliens are ok and blue dots with arrow being marines is okay.
but if the CC is a friggin triangle or something... i do not see how this will help any new players (like the thousands that come with steam advertising)
what supernorn is doing is the correct thing. job well done.
icons smaller or map bigger. and make it clearer which is a CC and which is an available spot for a CC (They look similar)
not really turning out well. :( owell
<a href="http://img18.imageshack.us/i/iconsg.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9638/iconsg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
mostly not stoked on armory ones, extractor, and the ARC.. needs some kinda change
the thing in the middle is a tech point, probably needs to be more tech point shaped,
Some might need tweaking, but love the hive especially.
<img src="http://www.nicholashillyard.com/images/ns2_skyfalls/minimap_icons_nkh_large_2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
not liking the resource nozzle now.
<img src="http://www.nicholashillyard.com/images/ns2_skyfalls/minimap_icons_nkh_large_2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
not liking the resource nozzle now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The upgraded Hive/CC look like they have been marked as a target or something. A player might think that the command wants them to attack that object or something like that.
For example, in the icons above, I can immediately understand the door icons, which show the door not from over head but from the perspective of the player.
I think the hive icons which clearly show the tentacles of the hive make it much easier to understand what they are depicting.
The fade icon, which clearly shows his claws is clear, I think it should just be a claw symbol.
Th only upside to drawing the icons from an over head view is that it makes showing orientation easier, but is orientation really tactically useful for the minimap, especially over instant readability and learning curve? I guess the choice is yours in the end, but I think clarity is top priority.
Yes. NS1 I used the minimap primarily for getting that tactical advantage. Being able to see orientation is extremely important to understanding how the fight is progressing in a room and which angles are open. I don't mind needing to learn icons, but orientation needs to be instantly readable because of how quickly that information has to be used. (An alien's class doesn't change mid-battle, so its a lot less important to make it as obvious as orientation)
<img src="http://blackmage.org/supernorn/minimap_icons.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Done for tonight, I'll probably finish and tweak the rest tomorrow. Pretty happy with them.
dude those are great looking. <i>Perfect size</i>. plus i love the arrows of the marines and the easy to see hive symbol. whats that center gold thing? i have no clue. :)
and which are the turrets? i cant tell if there are any turrets?
wow!
okay so just make the resource towers gray colored so they dont blend in so well with the map color. plus gray denotes unused. once RT in place then you can make it the green one or something.
great size and great job. any "90 degree cone" for the marines or turrets?
p.s. LOVE the C on the CC chair.
Here's some that I've already gotten down.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Empty Command Center
Turret facing a wall
"I thought we just destroyed this a minute ago" Hive
Hydra
Another Hydra
Infantry Por-no wait it's gone
"How is that even possible in this build" Onos
Giant ball of Drifters
Wall of Fire
Framerate Vampire
Ill-tempered 12 year old
many others<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
And here's a mock example of the icons in action:
<img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3783/naturalmac2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Constructive criticism welcome
the slicker ones look great
love xvisions entry
Here's some that I've already gotten down.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Empty Command Center
Turret facing a wall
"I thought we just destroyed this a minute ago" Hive
Hydra
Another Hydra
Infantry Por-no wait it's gone
"How is that even possible in this build" Onos
Giant ball of Drifters
Wall of Fire
Framerate Vampire
Ill-tempered 12 year old
many others<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
And here's a mock example of the icons in action:
<img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3783/naturalmac2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Constructive criticism welcome<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those icons are so detailed they basically spell out exactly what each symbol is for me.