Going for something different over here.... I have to admit I did steal the door and commander concept off Supernorn! Couldn't think of anything better.
Finishing them off this evening and have them all posted up (32x32) tonight (or this afternoon for you Americans).
I wanted silhouette to determine the clarity and really communicate the buildings well in a quick blink of the eye.
I did have the advanced armoury and weapons module with their different heads on, but I think it starts becoming too hard to differentiate between them. So instead, you have the same buildings but abbreviated.
I think this limits the number of different 'forms' you have to recognise, and instead you can quickly read off what the upgrade is.
<!--quoteo(post=1825944:date=Jan 21 2011, 05:44 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 21 2011, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's what I have so far. Scaling down is not really viable at 32x32, you have to do it all by hand.
Tech Point, Res node, Door, Door (locked), Door (welded), Grenade. Marine, Heavy, Jetpack Marine, MAC, Marine commander, Generic dead marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> my Feedback if you want to hear.
1.Tech Point {hard to see but if you know its ok} 2. Res node {hard to see but if you know its ok} 3. Door {hard to see but if you know its ok but it looks like welded door, or it has not a big diffrence} 4. Door (locked) {great and clear} 5. Door (welded) {hard to see but if you know its ok} 6. Grenade {oh my guess was a shotgun shell ^^} 7. Marine {very nice} 8. Heavy {looks like 7.} 9. Jetpack Marine {looks like 7.} 10. MAC {awesome} 11. Marine commander {hard to see but if you know its ok} 12. Generic dead marine {hard to know}
My ideas for your "hard to see" stuff is
1.Tech Point {} 2. Res node {} 3. Door {like welded door} 4. Door (locked) {great and clear} 5. Door (welded) {like welded door but with a X } 6. Grenade {hard to create a grenade, maybe } 7. Marine {very nice} 8. Heavy {looks like 7. make him fat} 9. Jetpack Marine {looks like 7.} 10. MAC {awesome} 11. Marine commander {hard to see but if you know its ok} 12. Generic dead marine {hard to know, maybe replace with a skull and bonex like pirate flaggs!}
<!--quoteo(post=1825966:date=Jan 21 2011, 08:14 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 21 2011, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going for something different over here.... I have to admit I did steal the door and commander concept off Supernorn! Couldn't think of anything better.
Finishing them off this evening and have them all posted up (32x32) tonight (or this afternoon for you Americans).
I wanted silhouette to determine the clarity and really communicate the buildings well in a quick blink of the eye.
I did have the advanced armoury and weapons module with their different heads on, but I think it starts becoming too hard to differentiate between them. So instead, you have the same buildings but abbreviated.
I think this limits the number of different 'forms' you have to recognise, and instead you can quickly read off what the upgrade is.
Not sure how this will translate to 16x16 however - these are some very small icons guys!
It would be great if you could explain 'exactly' what the arrows are for, i'm not too sure...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great Runteh but whats the CF CC? looks like a headcrab from half life :P oh its the cc? Or the right thing right to the drifter? or above the drifter? Or left from the mac? Hive MC, Hive HC? Im a default ns2 player and i have no clue.
<!--quoteo(post=1825966:date=Jan 21 2011, 02:14 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 21 2011, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going for something different over here.... I have to admit I did steal the door and commander concept off Supernorn! Couldn't think of anything better.
Finishing them off this evening and have them all posted up (32x32) tonight (or this afternoon for you Americans).
I wanted silhouette to determine the clarity and really communicate the buildings well in a quick blink of the eye.
I did have the advanced armoury and weapons module with their different heads on, but I think it starts becoming too hard to differentiate between them. So instead, you have the same buildings but abbreviated.
I think this limits the number of different 'forms' you have to recognise, and instead you can quickly read off what the upgrade is.
<!--quoteo(post=1825944:date=Jan 21 2011, 11:44 AM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 21 2011, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's what I have so far. Scaling down is not really viable at 32x32, you have to do it all by hand.
Tech Point, Res node, Door, Door (locked), Door (welded), Grenade. Marine, Heavy, Jetpack Marine, MAC, Marine commander, Generic dead marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like these. Pixel art is definitely the way to go, imo. This could use some work on differentiating the regular door and welded door as well as regular and JP marines would be good, but for a start this is great.
A lot of the shapes for structures and marines are so similar, on a minimap you have to look at it carefully to see what exactly it is. To me, that doesn't sound good.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1825921:date=Jan 21 2011, 05:07 AM:name=Lord Schnitzel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lord Schnitzel @ Jan 21 2011, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shaded, complex outlines that rotate are harder to regognize and tend to clutter. My sugestion is to go for a tactical "flat style symbolic" look.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
supernorn has it right with easily identifiable shapes. symbols like the CC and dead marine, as cory stated dont work. maybe place the letters CC in the icon? @lord schnitzel: the forums have had huge complaints about not being able to easily recognize the symbols in commander mode. if some other dev team were able to do this correctly, well on them, but we know that UW does better with just spelling it out (resources and "team resources" as in the next patch) because an arrow just doesnt properly <i>IMMEDIATELY </i>convey the idea. once youre used to the setup, then yes its easy image association, but thats because you had to <i>learn</i> these symbols.
same issue with a mini map. youre not going to get a seasoned player every time, in fact, for the most part youre going to get new players so pick something that doesnt require interpretation or guesswork. spell it out, plain and simple. if there happens to be a symbol thats also involved with the easily readable icon, then so be it. but just a symbol or just a color will only lead to mass confusion (look at how the fans of this game constantly argue over carbon plasma)
<!--quoteo(post=1826032:date=Jan 22 2011, 12:07 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 22 2011, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->image removed because its over there...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But they look to "clear" in my mind and i can not see what is what in marine base, they have no "own-look" if you understand.
The less icons the better if I'm honest. One for alien, one for marine, no death icon, you just disappear from the minimap. No different icons for different classes, just takes away from the game and the point of looking at the screen if you know 3 Onii are coming up and you get to run away quick.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited January 2011
Why not just colorize the Marine/Alien icon differently when they die? Normally, a Marine (or friendly alien) icon would be green and when they die it turns red or gray then disappears after a short time. This seems like the simplest solution to convey the idea. Not too mention, the less icons used, the less texture memory used (yes, I realize how small a difference the lack of a single icon makes, pertaining to file/memory size).
EDIT: Then again, gray isn't a good choice because the "neutral" nodes (res/tech) are gray. Hmm, the basic idea still seems good to me though.
Instead of having generic dead marine and dead alien icons, why not also display which kind of dead alien/marine it is. Right now, all minimap icons will always be red or green (depending on your team). So why not just have when someone dies, their color turn gray so people will know that person is dead along with their alien class or marine heavy/jetpack status. You could also overlay a small death icon over them too. This will also allow the ability to see dead structures too since you would not need extra dead structure icons.
I also agree with altering the object's original shape in order to make more a distinct / easily identifiable icon: (watch up to 0:58) <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&t=0m24s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&t=0m24s</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1826040:date=Jan 21 2011, 11:25 PM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Jan 21 2011, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of having generic dead marine and dead alien icons, why not also display which kind of dead alien/marine it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I don't want to see a crap load of different stuff I can't tell apart from each other on a minimap I shouldn't be staring at all game to see what is what, that's why I should be talking to my team and concentrating on what I'm doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1826043:date=Jan 21 2011, 04:39 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 21 2011, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because I don't want to see a crap load of different stuff I can't tell apart from each other on a minimap I shouldn't be staring at all game to see what is what, that's why I should be talking to my team and concentrating on what I'm doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But it would just be the normal icon but grayed out. It will actually help you concentrate better as you can easily ignore gray icons instead of looking at the red/green icon only to see it's the dead alien/marine icon. I'm not suggesting new dead icons for each class, just graying it out and maybe overlaying a dead symbol centered or offset by a little bit. Knowing the class/type of the dead player will help you.
<!--quoteo(post=1826046:date=Jan 21 2011, 04:54 PM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Jan 21 2011, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd go for the classic skull & bones, red/green will take care of the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or even have an alien skull & bones too
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1826054:date=Jan 21 2011, 07:15 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 21 2011, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Junk is junk. Whether it's team coloured or greyed out, it's still junk that's in the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1826054:date=Jan 21 2011, 05:15 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 21 2011, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Junk is junk. Whether it's team coloured or greyed out, it's still junk that's in the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're not OK with UWE's plan of showing a dead alien and dead marine icon?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1826060:date=Jan 21 2011, 07:27 PM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Jan 21 2011, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're not OK with UWE's plan of showing a dead alien and dead marine icon?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he wants to have things overly simple to not give out detailed information from the minimap and want to communicate with information coming only from team members.
I don't really agree with this for the reason of pub games and people not always being responsive when you ask them. I'd rather have the minimap just how it was in ns1 where I could quickly glance at it and see what the team was doing. Also saves useless chatter.
we don't need to see dead aliens or marines icons, if they disappear from the minimap - it means they are dead. No need to clutter up the minimap with dead icons.
we need to see important information:
res towers hives commander centers your own teammates better outlined vents power nodes (their location, and which are down and which are working)
basic information needed, do not clutter the map with small useless details. they also have to be re-sized to be small enough but not too big so they dont clutter minimap.
<!--quoteo(post=1826065:date=Jan 21 2011, 05:41 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 21 2011, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For dead alien I just put bullets, and for marines it is claw marks.
Fairly simple, reads well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I strongly disagree. I don't think anyone would be able to tell what they are looking at intuitively. The bullets will look like an ammo drop (people may not know that there is no icon for that) and the claw marks could be easily confused as something else. Are they bullets or bullet holes?
Comments
Finishing them off this evening and have them all posted up (32x32) tonight (or this afternoon for you Americans).
I wanted silhouette to determine the clarity and really communicate the buildings well in a quick blink of the eye.
I did have the advanced armoury and weapons module with their different heads on, but I think it starts becoming too hard to differentiate between them. So instead, you have the same buildings but abbreviated.
I think this limits the number of different 'forms' you have to recognise, and instead you can quickly read off what the upgrade is.
<img src="http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3978/mergeicons.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not sure how this will translate to 16x16 however - these are some very small icons guys!
It would be great if you could explain 'exactly' what the arrows are for, i'm not too sure...
<img src="http://blackmage.org/supernorn/minimap.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Tech Point, Res node, Door, Door (locked), Door (welded), Grenade.
Marine, Heavy, Jetpack Marine, MAC, Marine commander, Generic dead marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my Feedback if you want to hear.
1.Tech Point {hard to see but if you know its ok}
2. Res node {hard to see but if you know its ok}
3. Door {hard to see but if you know its ok but it looks like welded door, or it has not a big diffrence}
4. Door (locked) {great and clear}
5. Door (welded) {hard to see but if you know its ok}
6. Grenade {oh my guess was a shotgun shell ^^}
7. Marine {very nice}
8. Heavy {looks like 7.}
9. Jetpack Marine {looks like 7.}
10. MAC {awesome}
11. Marine commander {hard to see but if you know its ok}
12. Generic dead marine {hard to know}
My ideas for your "hard to see" stuff is
1.Tech Point {}
2. Res node {}
3. Door {like welded door}
4. Door (locked) {great and clear}
5. Door (welded) {like welded door but with a X }
6. Grenade {hard to create a grenade, maybe }
7. Marine {very nice}
8. Heavy {looks like 7. make him fat}
9. Jetpack Marine {looks like 7.}
10. MAC {awesome}
11. Marine commander {hard to see but if you know its ok}
12. Generic dead marine {hard to know, maybe replace with a skull and bonex like pirate flaggs!}
<!--quoteo(post=1825966:date=Jan 21 2011, 08:14 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 21 2011, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going for something different over here.... I have to admit I did steal the door and commander concept off Supernorn! Couldn't think of anything better.
Finishing them off this evening and have them all posted up (32x32) tonight (or this afternoon for you Americans).
I wanted silhouette to determine the clarity and really communicate the buildings well in a quick blink of the eye.
I did have the advanced armoury and weapons module with their different heads on, but I think it starts becoming too hard to differentiate between them. So instead, you have the same buildings but abbreviated.
I think this limits the number of different 'forms' you have to recognise, and instead you can quickly read off what the upgrade is.
<img src="http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3978/mergeicons.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not sure how this will translate to 16x16 however - these are some very small icons guys!
It would be great if you could explain 'exactly' what the arrows are for, i'm not too sure...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great Runteh but whats the CF CC? looks like a headcrab from half life :P oh its the cc?
Or the right thing right to the drifter?
or above the drifter?
Or left from the mac?
Hive MC, Hive HC?
Im a default ns2 player and i have no clue.
Finishing them off this evening and have them all posted up (32x32) tonight (or this afternoon for you Americans).
I wanted silhouette to determine the clarity and really communicate the buildings well in a quick blink of the eye.
I did have the advanced armoury and weapons module with their different heads on, but I think it starts becoming too hard to differentiate between them. So instead, you have the same buildings but abbreviated.
I think this limits the number of different 'forms' you have to recognise, and instead you can quickly read off what the upgrade is.
<img src="http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3978/mergeicons.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Not sure how this will translate to 16x16 however - these are some very small icons guys!
It would be great if you could explain 'exactly' what the arrows are for, i'm not too sure...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dammit, had a good thing going, but your silhouetting is just the way we need to go, that's pro runt, i'm stealing it (to a degree) sorry.
<img src="http://blackmage.org/supernorn/minimap.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Tech Point, Res node, Door, Door (locked), Door (welded), Grenade.
Marine, Heavy, Jetpack Marine, MAC, Marine commander, Generic dead marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like these. Pixel art is definitely the way to go, imo. This could use some work on differentiating the regular door and welded door as well as regular and JP marines would be good, but for a start this is great.
I'll redo the death icons and change the jetpack guy.
supernorn has it right with easily identifiable shapes. symbols like the CC and dead marine, as cory stated dont work. maybe place the letters CC in the icon?
@lord schnitzel:
the forums have had huge complaints about not being able to easily recognize the symbols in commander mode. if some other dev team were able to do this correctly, well on them, but we know that UW does better with just spelling it out (resources and "team resources" as in the next patch) because an arrow just doesnt properly <i>IMMEDIATELY </i>convey the idea.
once youre used to the setup, then yes its easy image association, but thats because you had to <i>learn</i> these symbols.
same issue with a mini map. youre not going to get a seasoned player every time, in fact, for the most part youre going to get new players so pick something that doesnt require interpretation or guesswork. spell it out, plain and simple. if there happens to be a symbol thats also involved with the easily readable icon, then so be it. but just a symbol or just a color will only lead to mass confusion (look at how the fans of this game constantly argue over carbon plasma)
Might do some gradient shading with the values, but if they like them they can always ask me to change them.
Not sure if they are relating properly to the map basic on the resolution.. But they are 32x32 as you see them on there.
All the 'advanced' buildings have an abbreviation (such as CC for command facility) on them, or a + (for mature chambers).
<img src="http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6121/mapoverview.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
those icons is good start but they had to be re-sized more, they shouldn't be so huge, imo.
But they look to "clear" in my mind and i can not see what is what in marine base, they have no "own-look" if you understand.
EDIT: Then again, gray isn't a good choice because the "neutral" nodes (res/tech) are gray. Hmm, the basic idea still seems good to me though.
I also agree with altering the object's original shape in order to make more a distinct / easily identifiable icon: (watch up to 0:58)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&t=0m24s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&t=0m24s</a>
Because I don't want to see a crap load of different stuff I can't tell apart from each other on a minimap I shouldn't be staring at all game to see what is what, that's why I should be talking to my team and concentrating on what I'm doing.
But it would just be the normal icon but grayed out. It will actually help you concentrate better as you can easily ignore gray icons instead of looking at the red/green icon only to see it's the dead alien/marine icon. I'm not suggesting new dead icons for each class, just graying it out and maybe overlaying a dead symbol centered or offset by a little bit. Knowing the class/type of the dead player will help you.
Or even have an alien skull & bones too
That's deep man.
So you're not OK with UWE's plan of showing a dead alien and dead marine icon?
No he wants to have things overly simple to not give out detailed information from the minimap and want to communicate with information coming only from team members.
I don't really agree with this for the reason of pub games and people not always being responsive when you ask them. I'd rather have the minimap just how it was in ns1 where I could quickly glance at it and see what the team was doing. Also saves useless chatter.
we need to see important information:
res towers
hives
commander centers
your own teammates
better outlined vents
power nodes (their location, and which are down and which are working)
basic information needed, do not clutter the map with small useless details.
they also have to be re-sized to be small enough but not too big so they dont clutter minimap.
Fairly simple, reads well.
Fairly simple, reads well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly disagree. I don't think anyone would be able to tell what they are looking at intuitively. The bullets will look like an ammo drop (people may not know that there is no icon for that) and the claw marks could be easily confused as something else. Are they bullets or bullet holes?