<!--quoteo(post=1776937:date=Jul 4 2010, 08:06 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 4 2010, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just curious, is there anyone who is against movement like bh, who actually knows how to do more than just the "gaining speed". I seriously cannot imagine NS1 without bh it would had been complete "flop" if you can say that about a mod. If the new movement is not as intuitive as currect, I doubt the game has a bright future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, because the most played non-commercial mod downloaded well over a million times would have flopped because of no bhop. You realize that bhoppers comprise at the MOST 5% of NS's total player base.
<!--quoteo(post=1776946:date=Jul 4 2010, 04:52 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 4 2010, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Precisely my point. Isn't someone who knows how to bhop but wants it gone less " oblivious to anything else but your way of playing the game ".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... Or it could be you being totally oblivious to the higher levels of bhopping. How am supposed to know based on one binary piece of information you provided? That's the whole problem of "I do" answers on a controversial topic like this. "I understand bunnyhopping" has gone through such inflation with all the misconception bullish around. It's damn difficult to differentiate total trolls from valid argumentation unless you're providing some slight description to feed the discussion.
"I know chess" could mean anything between knowing how the pieces work to having studied huge amounts of openings, developments and theory. In simialr way "I can bunnyhop" varies from people to people in ridiculous proportions.
Edit: And sorry for being pushy, I just find all this still somehow interesting and I'm stubbornly trying to get some pieces of nice discussion going sometimes.
Although I haven't read the whole thread I think there are some people missing what is so useful about bhopping. The whole concept of bhopping allows for turning in mid air and if anything gaining some speed in the process. When combined with leap you could leap around huge corners no problem too. This allows good bhoppers to sink a skulk bite directly into their target even if the marine is trying to sidestep out of the way. Without 'turn in air' abilities it becomes much harder to choose where you are going to land from any form of jumping once you have left the ground.
This is my only concern with a lack of bhopping. Not so much the hopping part but the air control you gain if you can do it right.
<!--quoteo(post=1776937:date=Jul 4 2010, 09:06 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 4 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just curious, is there anyone who is against movement like bh, who actually knows how to do more than just the "gaining speed". I seriously cannot imagine NS1 without bh it would had been complete "flop" if you can say that about a mod. If the new movement is not as intuitive as currect, I doubt the game has a bright future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I am very well aware of that but combat you have to earn a point first which at times if you are not very good at the game end up just feeding a ton, or leeching xp from every other player on your team till you get a point either way you actually are hurting your team more in both sense, then even with leap hive1 still not going to mean that a leaping skulk is going to make much of a difference even given hive1 Leap. By then marines usually have shotguns and what have you else upgraded already. Not all the times but boy would i hate not to be able to strafe jump/bhop in combat because honestly it would be a ton harder. Given a new player checks out ns tries to learn aliens, is going to have more of a tough time playing one if there was no bhop and that was the case.
In Classic you have to get a second hive down, there are so many variables to this its not even funny. So yes having a skulk with bhop in the start of a classic game, really helps out instead of hinder. I would love to see you play as a skulk on combat or classic without bhop or any real fluent hopping of any sorts. I'm sure you can manage but it almost makes playing aliens so hard and for the most part not enjoyable.
Like I said I am fine without bhop but Drown your point is pretty invalid. Really ok so you have been playing this game for years. You can manage without bhop, but lemme ask you this. How do you think new and intermediate ns players are going to play, my bet is that It would make it far harder on them. This game does have a decent learning curve and if you dont pick it up or find enjoyment right away you probably won't end up sticking with it. I am just saying. Even the worst player as a skulk can manage better with a half ass strafehop/bhop ish jump instead of going in B lines.
Yes I realize if bhop wasn't in the game that it would be a far different game today. Not saying that it would be any worse or any better, less players or more players but just the simple fact that I am able to play with bhop, granted I am not close to being awesome doing it but i can bhop in succession and keep a fluid hop going.
Either way. This is a good healthy debate. At least its not politics or religion bah!
<!--quoteo(post=1776962:date=Jul 4 2010, 06:34 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jul 4 2010, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is my only concern with a lack of bhopping. Not so much the hopping part but the air control you gain if you can do it right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think air control is possible without the actual bhopping. The thingy what bothers me mostly with the leap replacement is that I don't know how they're going to scale it all the way from newbies to top level teams without doing some nerf overkills. On smaller NS games, even without people capable of bhopping, the aliens were quite dominant. Of course this is due to a lot of things, including the necessity of offensive marine early game and such, but probably also because the NS1 nature of aliens with ability to pick fights against slower moving targets is somewhat easier to play than the marines on lower levels.
The ridiculous learning curve of bhop, as flawed as it is, scaled the player skill on both teams to a tolerable level. Both newbie and veteran marines had their share of challenge for aiming and both still had skulking capability to somewhat match their level. Now with leap avaible right away, I'm still trying to think of ways how it's going to scale smoothly. The first idea I get is that either newbies are confused with the speedfest or veterans are cursing their clumsy and slow skulks.
I'm probably flogging a dead horse here and it's quite fine that way, but I think the whole thingy is one of the more interesting features and challenges NS2 faces. The geeky side of me really enjoys trying to find potential solutions and theories for things like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1776959:date=Jul 4 2010, 06:17 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 4 2010, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Or it could be you being totally oblivious to the higher levels of bhopping. How am supposed to know based on one binary piece of information you provided? That's the whole problem of "I do" answers on a controversial topic like this. "I understand bunnyhopping" has gone through such inflation with all the misconception bullish around. It's damn difficult to differentiate total trolls from valid argumentation unless you're providing some slight description to feed the discussion.
"I know chess" could mean anything between knowing how the pieces work to having studied huge amounts of openings, developments and theory. In simialr way "I can bunnyhop" varies from people to people in ridiculous proportions.
Edit: And sorry for being pushy, I just find all this still somehow interesting and I'm stubbornly trying to get some pieces of nice discussion going sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS is probably the only one game I can pretend to claim advanced techniques. I played this game ever since release, I played a lot and still play it, and when I say I know bunny hopping, I mean that it's not something I just picked up recently. I can definitely understand what you're getting at, but I definitely have a very good idea of what I'm talking about, and I don't see why I'd need to make a video to be able to have an opinion on bunny hopping. My point is that I believe bad players have so much more to gain from the removal of BH than good players have to lose.
<!--quoteo(post=1776968:date=Jul 4 2010, 01:49 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 4 2010, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is that I believe bad players have so much more to gain from the removal of BH than good players have to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. And rightfully so. NS2 is attempting to appeal to vast new audiences, especially with the inclusion on steam. UWE also purposefully made NS2 a LUA modifiable game for people like you bacillus. Competitive masses that collect data and distinguish that this is x y z too powerful or underpowered in competitive matches. I'm sure there will be tweaks to the hardcore gaming, and I encourage that, go for it.
But you need to realize most competitive gaming elements infringe on general fun for the casual public. And that is far more of a problem then the collective competitive community (which comprises far less than the majority, FAR FAR less) whining about it.
Whenever I hear "competive" and "hardcore" in one sentence, I imagine a spawn once per round mechanic. 30 minutes respawntime, kkthxbye.
Anyway, why are people so... so crazy about keeping bhoping? I could pull it off allright, but all it did was annoying me. If games are balanced on unintuitive, illogical movement skills a player has to learn / be teached about them they just fail imo.
The only reason I still played NS for over 4 years dawn to dawn is that most players didnt do it <i>that</i> much on "my" servers.
Seriously, what fun is it to jump around like Mario had one 'shroom to much and thinks the floor is on fire now?
<!--quoteo(post=1776971:date=Jul 4 2010, 09:12 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 4 2010, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. And rightfully so. NS2 is attempting to appeal to vast new audiences, especially with the inclusion on steam. UWE also purposefully made NS2 a LUA modifiable game for people like you bacillus. Competitive masses that collect data and distinguish that this is x y z too powerful or underpowered in competitive matches. I'm sure there will be tweaks to the hardcore gaming, and I encourage that, go for it.
But you need to realize most competitive gaming elements infringe on general fun for the casual public. And that is far more of a problem then the collective competitive community (which comprises far less than the majority, FAR FAR less) whining about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I understand this.
The things I'm generally worried are that the competetive games turn out to be too different and inaccessible from the casual NS2. This happened in NS already, even without any bigger necessity customization. NS1 is still a wonderful game, but the lack of player intake makes it too time consuming for the amount of evenly matched competetive gaming it's able to provide. I can't see much brighter future for a heavily modified hardcore mod of an indie game.
I also understand that UWE wants to have the casual appeal, no problem with that. However, I recall them stating that they want NS2 to be "The best competetive game since Starcraft". It's probably a heavy exaggeration anyway, but still as long as they are claiming their intention is to have the competetive side, I'm obviously interested in discussing NS2 from that viewpoint. I know that a few people at ENSL have put quite a bit of their time and money to keep the community somewhat going until NS2, probably partitially because UWE has signaled that the competetive gaming is possible. At that point I kinda feel it's a shame if the people at ENSL have contributed in vain just because nobody bothers representing worry about the competetive side over here. Obviously a lot of competetive gamers have different views from mine too, so I'm not even going to pretend I'd know what's overall good for the competetive gaming.
The thingy I'm in general trying to discuss is preserving the challenge while making the game more accessible instead of just brutally making the game more shallow and less intense. I can understand UWE's decisions in most cases, but obvoiusly I'm trying to defend my own viewpoints too. I'm not the one deciding what goes into the game, so I guess I'm free to demand all kinds of impossibilites, hoping that some discussion generates good ideas that potentially even help in preserving and contributing to the style of gaming I appreciate without interfering too much with the casual appeal.
So yeah, I'm probably the loony old man that has lost his sense of reality and sees conspiracies and shallow, indifferent and less challenging gameplay everywhere, but I think it's somewhat useful for every forum to have one. I think it's a shame if we miss potential ideas and discussion just because nobody dares to demand more than any developer in the world is capable of delivering.
there's going to be so many new additions that the loss of the bunny hop is gonna look trivial. just gotta think of this as a brand new game (which in some sense it is) so you don't feel like you're actually losing something from the mod.
The most success games have a healthy competitive community without significant modification to the game itself. It's extremely important for many reasons and modifications shouldn't be relied on. A game that's good for competition does not mean the public cannot enjoy it and vise versa.
The reason why people want to see bunny hopping in the game is because they want some acknowledgment that marine movement was an important element in NS1 and they want that same element in NS2. It doesn't have to be bunny hopping, and I truthfully would not expect it to be, but when a developer says "no more bunny hopping" certain players see that and panic. They're worried bunny hopping will not be replaced by another mechanic to promote skillful movement and positioning.
Look at page 3 of this thread, I'll quote myself followed by Ballius's reply.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope marines have some kind of movement skill in NS2 available to them from the get-go or through very early tech...Maybe jumpjets which would provide for a quick boost to avoid a bite and it may even be on the tech tree to jetpacks. The player skill would come from the timing of the jet-jump rather than a hidden or repetitive mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ballius)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, I think it exteremely important to recognize the role of marine movement in NS. The whole dynamic positioning and movement system is part of the core of NS' depth in firefights. I'd still appreciate the dodging movement having some kind of tradeoff, so that it doesn't become a completely automatic response in every encouter. In NS the aiming/dodging tradeoff and the variations of executing the jump helped to create easily recognizable playstyles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think any "pro-bunny-hop" player is advocating NS1 style Bhops in NS2 but without some kind of other movement mechanic it will feel like a step back in terms of skill and gameplay when compared to NS1.
When I see people say "Remove bhop" I don't see any indication they understand why that mechanic was so important to NS1's gameplay and they rarely offer a possible suggestion of what would replace Bhoping.
If as to measure whether if you can or cant, you can check jumped movies from ensl. If you can do most of the stuff you are probably can do better than basics. It does not include highlevel techniques in actually game thou ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1776937:date=Jul 4 2010, 01:06 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 4 2010, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just curious, is there anyone who is against movement like bh, who actually knows how to do more than just the "gaining speed". I seriously cannot imagine NS1 without bh it would had been complete "flop" if you can say that about a mod. If the new movement is not as intuitive as currect, I doubt the game has a bright future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>I don't support bunny hopping returning, but I struggle to express this without resorting to insults and generic rage.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1776959:date=Jul 4 2010, 05:17 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 4 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Or it could be you being totally oblivious to the higher levels of bhopping. How am supposed to know based on one binary piece of information you provided? That's the whole problem of "I do" answers on a controversial topic like this. "I understand bunnyhopping" has gone through such inflation with all the misconception bullish around. It's damn difficult to differentiate total trolls from valid argumentation unless you're providing some slight description to feed the discussion.
"I know chess" could mean anything between knowing how the pieces work to having studied huge amounts of openings, developments and theory. In simialr way "I can bunnyhop" varies from people to people in ridiculous proportions.
Edit: And sorry for being pushy, I just find all this still somehow interesting and I'm stubbornly trying to get some pieces of nice discussion going sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to do something has a lot less bearing on any given topic than I think you're willing to realize - more often, it simply becomes a crutch to a moronic logical fallacy: "You can't X so that's why you don't like it." I can't use sniper rifles worth a damn. I do say, however, that removing sniper classes from Battlefield would be wonderful for the game for a variety of reasons I won't list here. That list of reasons has absolutely no correlation with my skill at sniping.
If "You can't BHop so that's why you don't like it" is a valid argument, then so is "you can BHop so that's why you like it". Both are wrong - after all, if there's a certain weapon that's overpowered in a game, are you going to ask the people who abuse it the most if they want it nerfed?
<b>I've been told it's possible to express an opinion without yelling at someone. Why not give it a try?</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1777006:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:38 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 5 2010, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being able to do something has a lot less bearing on any given topic than I think you're willing to realize - more often, it simply becomes a crutch to a moronic logical fallacy: "You can't X so that's why you don't like it." I can't use sniper rifles worth a damn. I do say, however, that removing sniper classes from Battlefield would be wonderful for the game for a variety of reasons I won't list here. That list of reasons has absolutely no correlation with my skill at sniping.
If "You can't BHop so that's why you don't like it" is a valid argument, then so is "you can BHop so that's why you like it". Both are wrong - after all, if there's a certain weapon that's overpowered in a game, are you going to ask the people who abuse it the most if they want it nerfed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think bhopping differs from sniping a bit. BHop being inaccessible creates extra barriers for this kind of discussion. Anyone can take a try at sniping and fail miserably. Sniping is also still pretty graspable concept, since it's basically a slight variation of usual shooting.
The problem with BHopping is that it's quite different from any other element in the game, apart from leaphopping maybe. People have no grasp of what it does, how to do it and how it actually contributes to the game. A vast majority of the counterarguments are totally misplaced and false. A little like people would be arguing that sniping is bad "Because they can shoot from afar", only seeing the outcome that they got sniped, not any kind of actual connection to the situation, players involved or downsides and challenges faced by the sniper.
I can agree with anyone argumenting tha Bhop is artificial, maybe atmosphere breaking in a way, uninuitive and so on. The point is that I'd rather try to discuss those arguments further with a person that hasn't got no idea how the system actually works. It's a good discussion at that point, going further to why it's inaccessible, which parts are difficult and so on. However, I'd rather not ramble half a page with a person who complains about snipers being able to snipe. That's what happens too often with a feature as inaccessible as bhop is.
... And as usual, Puzl is right. I, due to my NS/Q3 mindset, haven't managed to picture a replacement system yet though. That's why I'm trying to squueze out some ideas and also trying to explore whether bhop could be turned into an acceptable option, which it right now isn't.
P.S. Fade seriously makes great use of parts of the HL system. I guess it could live even in NS1 without the speed gain from raw hopping, but the curving and speed preservation are a huge deal. The speed gain also adds a nice touch to it, especially through the use of curving during the blink. I remember being a bad fade, then seeing how Tuplis played his fade and how he added extra touch to every blink. That kind of things really made me want to learn the game.
bhop was a very fluid motion when you got used to it, to the point where I now subconsciously try to do it in all games when I'm just walking somewhere. However I don't think that the same mechanism is really a necessary in ns2. Air control is very important to get just right
I just hope that they don't ruin marine movement as a result of not implementing a bhop system. People tend to forget, or not even realise how important it was to move correctly as a marine during a close combat skirmish with skulks/fades etc. if you watch any good player as a marine you will notice the distance they are able to put between themselves and the target by moving correctly.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
I miss the days of twitch shooters... can we go back to the 90's please? So many developers today are catering to this wider audience that wouldn't know what a twitch shooter is... complete with its bunny hopping and fast gameplay. Thats part of what made NS so great, it was one of the last few good twitch games about. Damn them console gamers!
<!--quoteo(post=1777021:date=Jul 5 2010, 05:31 AM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Jul 5 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bhop was a very fluid motion when you got used to it, to the point where I now subconsciously try to do it in all games when I'm just walking somewhere. However I don't think that the same mechanism is really a necessary in ns2. Air control is very important to get just right
I just hope that they don't ruin marine movement as a result of not implementing a bhop system. People tend to forget, or not even realise how important it was to move correctly as a marine during a close combat skirmish with skulks/fades etc. if you watch any good player as a marine you will notice the distance they are able to put between themselves and the target by moving correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going back to bhopping of the sorts. Yeah in close combat like that. One of the general things I see a marine do is hop in a complete circle some zig zag but for the most part I mostly notice a marine bhopping around a skulk or a fade, trying to not get hit while dealing damage to said alien.
Same goes for skulks, Though they bounce off of everything. I find that having that little extra coding that allows for you to be able to bhop helps out a ton in very close quarter tight area combat, where the only think you can do is keep jumping and strafing while either shooting or dealing dmg as an alien.
The basic fundamentals of early game combat have changed drastically in NS2 and it's not even worth speculating about in relation to NS1.
Marines now have a rifle butt melee attack to repel skulks. Marines start with the ability to sprint. Aliens start with leap.
This alone drastically changes the combat mechanics of why bhopping even made sense in competitive circles. This topic is best revisited in the beta stages of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1777050:date=Jul 5 2010, 08:15 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 5 2010, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This alone drastically changes the combat mechanics of why bhopping even made sense in competitive circles. This topic is best revisited in the beta stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is not only part of competitive but the whole game some are just ignorant or too lazy to accept it.
Everything here is speculation, but if all you come up after update is looks or sounds cool I think you are not really giving your thoughts. BH is such a key feature removing it seems relentless even modifieing it (dumpen up) and adding 1hive leap would have been ok but I really cant accept removing it, lets hope I change my mind in alpha.
<!--quoteo(post=1777055:date=Jul 5 2010, 12:49 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 5 2010, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is not only part of competitive but the whole game some are just ignorant or too lazy to accept it.
Everything here is speculation, but if all you come up after update is looks or sounds cool I think you are not really giving your thoughts. BH is such a key feature removing it seems relentless even modifieing it (dumpen up) and adding 1hive leap would have been ok but I really cant accept removing it, lets hope I change my mind in alpha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played NS2 since the first day it was ever in-house play tested up until years later, and the people we played with never bhopped. And surprise TrC, we had a great time. In fact, the spawn of competitive NS started from EC vs TAU way way back in the day with players like SentrySteve. Beyond 2005 NS's scene may have evolved, and that's great. But I'm telling you that NS without bhopping was still an incredibly fun, immerse, balanced game in the hands of casual playing mixed in with those who just natural excel at shooters, like Steve.
Your definition of a key feature is in fact, a very minor feature of making NS a fun, atmospheric, entertaining game.
I'd also add that moves HAVE been taken to control BH, that is if you remember silent marine BH.
I know that in its current setting bunnyhopping is intended as a feature of NS1, but I strongly believe as well that it is there as a makeshift replacement for lack of a better alternative.
Comments
Right, because the most played non-commercial mod downloaded well over a million times would have flopped because of no bhop. You realize that bhoppers comprise at the MOST 5% of NS's total player base.
leap is hive1, alright, lets move on guys.
... Or it could be you being totally oblivious to the higher levels of bhopping. How am supposed to know based on one binary piece of information you provided? That's the whole problem of "I do" answers on a controversial topic like this. "I understand bunnyhopping" has gone through such inflation with all the misconception bullish around. It's damn difficult to differentiate total trolls from valid argumentation unless you're providing some slight description to feed the discussion.
"I know chess" could mean anything between knowing how the pieces work to having studied huge amounts of openings, developments and theory. In simialr way "I can bunnyhop" varies from people to people in ridiculous proportions.
Edit: And sorry for being pushy, I just find all this still somehow interesting and I'm stubbornly trying to get some pieces of nice discussion going sometimes.
This is my only concern with a lack of bhopping. Not so much the hopping part but the air control you gain if you can do it right.
I'm against it. it's an immersion killer.
Yes, I am very well aware of that but combat you have to earn a point first which at times if you are not very good at the game end up just feeding a ton, or leeching xp from every other player on your team till you get a point either way you actually are hurting your team more in both sense, then even with leap hive1 still not going to mean that a leaping skulk is going to make much of a difference even given hive1 Leap. By then marines usually have shotguns and what have you else upgraded already. Not all the times but boy would i hate not to be able to strafe jump/bhop in combat because honestly it would be a ton harder. Given a new player checks out ns tries to learn aliens, is going to have more of a tough time playing one if there was no bhop and that was the case.
In Classic you have to get a second hive down, there are so many variables to this its not even funny. So yes having a skulk with bhop in the start of a classic game, really helps out instead of hinder. I would love to see you play as a skulk on combat or classic without bhop or any real fluent hopping of any sorts. I'm sure you can manage but it almost makes playing aliens so hard and for the most part not enjoyable.
Like I said I am fine without bhop but Drown your point is pretty invalid. Really ok so you have been playing this game for years. You can manage without bhop, but lemme ask you this. How do you think new and intermediate ns players are going to play, my bet is that It would make it far harder on them. This game does have a decent learning curve and if you dont pick it up or find enjoyment right away you probably won't end up sticking with it. I am just saying. Even the worst player as a skulk can manage better with a half ass strafehop/bhop ish jump instead of going in B lines.
Yes I realize if bhop wasn't in the game that it would be a far different game today. Not saying that it would be any worse or any better, less players or more players but just the simple fact that I am able to play with bhop, granted I am not close to being awesome doing it but i can bhop in succession and keep a fluid hop going.
Either way. This is a good healthy debate. At least its not politics or religion bah!
I think air control is possible without the actual bhopping. The thingy what bothers me mostly with the leap replacement is that I don't know how they're going to scale it all the way from newbies to top level teams without doing some nerf overkills. On smaller NS games, even without people capable of bhopping, the aliens were quite dominant. Of course this is due to a lot of things, including the necessity of offensive marine early game and such, but probably also because the NS1 nature of aliens with ability to pick fights against slower moving targets is somewhat easier to play than the marines on lower levels.
The ridiculous learning curve of bhop, as flawed as it is, scaled the player skill on both teams to a tolerable level. Both newbie and veteran marines had their share of challenge for aiming and both still had skulking capability to somewhat match their level. Now with leap avaible right away, I'm still trying to think of ways how it's going to scale smoothly. The first idea I get is that either newbies are confused with the speedfest or veterans are cursing their clumsy and slow skulks.
I'm probably flogging a dead horse here and it's quite fine that way, but I think the whole thingy is one of the more interesting features and challenges NS2 faces. The geeky side of me really enjoys trying to find potential solutions and theories for things like this.
"I know chess" could mean anything between knowing how the pieces work to having studied huge amounts of openings, developments and theory. In simialr way "I can bunnyhop" varies from people to people in ridiculous proportions.
Edit: And sorry for being pushy, I just find all this still somehow interesting and I'm stubbornly trying to get some pieces of nice discussion going sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well NS is probably the only one game I can pretend to claim advanced techniques. I played this game ever since release, I played a lot and still play it, and when I say I know bunny hopping, I mean that it's not something I just picked up recently. I can definitely understand what you're getting at, but I definitely have a very good idea of what I'm talking about, and I don't see why I'd need to make a video to be able to have an opinion on bunny hopping.
My point is that I believe bad players have so much more to gain from the removal of BH than good players have to lose.
This. And rightfully so.
NS2 is attempting to appeal to vast new audiences, especially with the inclusion on steam.
UWE also purposefully made NS2 a LUA modifiable game for people like you bacillus. Competitive masses that collect data and distinguish that this is x y z too powerful or underpowered in competitive matches. I'm sure there will be tweaks to the hardcore gaming, and I encourage that, go for it.
But you need to realize most competitive gaming elements infringe on general fun for the casual public. And that is far more of a problem then the collective competitive community (which comprises far less than the majority, FAR FAR less) whining about it.
30 minutes respawntime, kkthxbye.
Anyway, why are people so... so crazy about keeping bhoping? I could pull it off allright, but all it did was annoying me.
If games are balanced on unintuitive, illogical movement skills a player has to learn / be teached about them they just fail imo.
The only reason I still played NS for over 4 years dawn to dawn is that most players didnt do it <i>that</i> much on "my" servers.
Seriously, what fun is it to jump around like Mario had one 'shroom to much and thinks the floor is on fire now?
NS2 is attempting to appeal to vast new audiences, especially with the inclusion on steam.
UWE also purposefully made NS2 a LUA modifiable game for people like you bacillus. Competitive masses that collect data and distinguish that this is x y z too powerful or underpowered in competitive matches. I'm sure there will be tweaks to the hardcore gaming, and I encourage that, go for it.
But you need to realize most competitive gaming elements infringe on general fun for the casual public. And that is far more of a problem then the collective competitive community (which comprises far less than the majority, FAR FAR less) whining about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I understand this.
The things I'm generally worried are that the competetive games turn out to be too different and inaccessible from the casual NS2. This happened in NS already, even without any bigger necessity customization. NS1 is still a wonderful game, but the lack of player intake makes it too time consuming for the amount of evenly matched competetive gaming it's able to provide. I can't see much brighter future for a heavily modified hardcore mod of an indie game.
I also understand that UWE wants to have the casual appeal, no problem with that. However, I recall them stating that they want NS2 to be "The best competetive game since Starcraft". It's probably a heavy exaggeration anyway, but still as long as they are claiming their intention is to have the competetive side, I'm obviously interested in discussing NS2 from that viewpoint. I know that a few people at ENSL have put quite a bit of their time and money to keep the community somewhat going until NS2, probably partitially because UWE has signaled that the competetive gaming is possible. At that point I kinda feel it's a shame if the people at ENSL have contributed in vain just because nobody bothers representing worry about the competetive side over here. Obviously a lot of competetive gamers have different views from mine too, so I'm not even going to pretend I'd know what's overall good for the competetive gaming.
The thingy I'm in general trying to discuss is preserving the challenge while making the game more accessible instead of just brutally making the game more shallow and less intense. I can understand UWE's decisions in most cases, but obvoiusly I'm trying to defend my own viewpoints too. I'm not the one deciding what goes into the game, so I guess I'm free to demand all kinds of impossibilites, hoping that some discussion generates good ideas that potentially even help in preserving and contributing to the style of gaming I appreciate without interfering too much with the casual appeal.
So yeah, I'm probably the loony old man that has lost his sense of reality and sees conspiracies and shallow, indifferent and less challenging gameplay everywhere, but I think it's somewhat useful for every forum to have one. I think it's a shame if we miss potential ideas and discussion just because nobody dares to demand more than any developer in the world is capable of delivering.
The reason why people want to see bunny hopping in the game is because they want some acknowledgment that marine movement was an important element in NS1 and they want that same element in NS2. It doesn't have to be bunny hopping, and I truthfully would not expect it to be, but when a developer says "no more bunny hopping" certain players see that and panic. They're worried bunny hopping will not be replaced by another mechanic to promote skillful movement and positioning.
Look at page 3 of this thread, I'll quote myself followed by Ballius's reply.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope marines have some kind of movement skill in NS2 available to them from the get-go or through very early tech...Maybe jumpjets which would provide for a quick boost to avoid a bite and it may even be on the tech tree to jetpacks. The player skill would come from the timing of the jet-jump rather than a hidden or repetitive mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ballius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ballius)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, I think it exteremely important to recognize the role of marine movement in NS. The whole dynamic positioning and movement system is part of the core of NS' depth in firefights. I'd still appreciate the dodging movement having some kind of tradeoff, so that it doesn't become a completely automatic response in every encouter. In NS the aiming/dodging tradeoff and the variations of executing the jump helped to create easily recognizable playstyles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think any "pro-bunny-hop" player is advocating NS1 style Bhops in NS2 but without some kind of other movement mechanic it will feel like a step back in terms of skill and gameplay when compared to NS1.
When I see people say "Remove bhop" I don't see any indication they understand why that mechanic was so important to NS1's gameplay and they rarely offer a possible suggestion of what would replace Bhoping.
<b>I don't support bunny hopping returning, but I struggle to express this without resorting to insults and generic rage.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1776959:date=Jul 4 2010, 05:17 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 4 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Or it could be you being totally oblivious to the higher levels of bhopping. How am supposed to know based on one binary piece of information you provided? That's the whole problem of "I do" answers on a controversial topic like this. "I understand bunnyhopping" has gone through such inflation with all the misconception bullish around. It's damn difficult to differentiate total trolls from valid argumentation unless you're providing some slight description to feed the discussion.
"I know chess" could mean anything between knowing how the pieces work to having studied huge amounts of openings, developments and theory. In simialr way "I can bunnyhop" varies from people to people in ridiculous proportions.
Edit: And sorry for being pushy, I just find all this still somehow interesting and I'm stubbornly trying to get some pieces of nice discussion going sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to do something has a lot less bearing on any given topic than I think you're willing to realize - more often, it simply becomes a crutch to a moronic logical fallacy: "You can't X so that's why you don't like it." I can't use sniper rifles worth a damn. I do say, however, that removing sniper classes from Battlefield would be wonderful for the game for a variety of reasons I won't list here. That list of reasons has absolutely no correlation with my skill at sniping.
If "You can't BHop so that's why you don't like it" is a valid argument, then so is "you can BHop so that's why you like it". Both are wrong - after all, if there's a certain weapon that's overpowered in a game, are you going to ask the people who abuse it the most if they want it nerfed?
<b>I've been told it's possible to express an opinion without yelling at someone. Why not give it a try?</b>
As somoene who was central to NS development through most of 3.x, I can tell you that we considered bunnyhopping a game feature.
And I preferred to play aliens over marines to a large degree because of how much I enjoyed bunnyhopping, and 'quake air control' in general.
However, I also agree that there is little room for bunnyhopping in NS2, it's time to let it go and replace it with intuitive alternatives.
Nope.
If "You can't BHop so that's why you don't like it" is a valid argument, then so is "you can BHop so that's why you like it". Both are wrong - after all, if there's a certain weapon that's overpowered in a game, are you going to ask the people who abuse it the most if they want it nerfed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think bhopping differs from sniping a bit. BHop being inaccessible creates extra barriers for this kind of discussion. Anyone can take a try at sniping and fail miserably. Sniping is also still pretty graspable concept, since it's basically a slight variation of usual shooting.
The problem with BHopping is that it's quite different from any other element in the game, apart from leaphopping maybe. People have no grasp of what it does, how to do it and how it actually contributes to the game. A vast majority of the counterarguments are totally misplaced and false. A little like people would be arguing that sniping is bad "Because they can shoot from afar", only seeing the outcome that they got sniped, not any kind of actual connection to the situation, players involved or downsides and challenges faced by the sniper.
I can agree with anyone argumenting tha Bhop is artificial, maybe atmosphere breaking in a way, uninuitive and so on. The point is that I'd rather try to discuss those arguments further with a person that hasn't got no idea how the system actually works. It's a good discussion at that point, going further to why it's inaccessible, which parts are difficult and so on. However, I'd rather not ramble half a page with a person who complains about snipers being able to snipe. That's what happens too often with a feature as inaccessible as bhop is.
... And as usual, Puzl is right. I, due to my NS/Q3 mindset, haven't managed to picture a replacement system yet though. That's why I'm trying to squueze out some ideas and also trying to explore whether bhop could be turned into an acceptable option, which it right now isn't.
P.S. Fade seriously makes great use of parts of the HL system. I guess it could live even in NS1 without the speed gain from raw hopping, but the curving and speed preservation are a huge deal. The speed gain also adds a nice touch to it, especially through the use of curving during the blink. I remember being a bad fade, then seeing how Tuplis played his fade and how he added extra touch to every blink. That kind of things really made me want to learn the game.
I just hope that they don't ruin marine movement as a result of not implementing a bhop system. People tend to forget, or not even realise how important it was to move correctly as a marine during a close combat skirmish with skulks/fades etc. if you watch any good player as a marine you will notice the distance they are able to put between themselves and the target by moving correctly.
So many developers today are catering to this wider audience that wouldn't know what a twitch shooter is... complete with its bunny hopping and fast gameplay. Thats part of what made NS so great, it was one of the last few good twitch games about. Damn them console gamers!
I just hope that they don't ruin marine movement as a result of not implementing a bhop system. People tend to forget, or not even realise how important it was to move correctly as a marine during a close combat skirmish with skulks/fades etc. if you watch any good player as a marine you will notice the distance they are able to put between themselves and the target by moving correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going back to bhopping of the sorts. Yeah in close combat like that. One of the general things I see a marine do is hop in a complete circle some zig zag but for the most part I mostly notice a marine bhopping around a skulk or a fade, trying to not get hit while dealing damage to said alien.
Same goes for skulks, Though they bounce off of everything. I find that having that little extra coding that allows for you to be able to bhop helps out a ton in very close quarter tight area combat, where the only think you can do is keep jumping and strafing while either shooting or dealing dmg as an alien.
Good Point there Narcil!
Marines now have a rifle butt melee attack to repel skulks.
Marines start with the ability to sprint.
Aliens start with leap.
This alone drastically changes the combat mechanics of why bhopping even made sense in competitive circles.
This topic is best revisited in the beta stages of the game.
awesome! i've always loved melee combat in shooter games
This topic is best revisited in the beta stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not only part of competitive but the whole game some are just ignorant or too lazy to accept it.
Everything here is speculation, but if all you come up after update is looks or sounds cool I think you are not really giving your thoughts. BH is such a key feature removing it seems relentless even modifieing it (dumpen up) and adding 1hive leap would have been ok but I really cant accept removing it, lets hope I change my mind in alpha.
Everything here is speculation, but if all you come up after update is looks or sounds cool I think you are not really giving your thoughts. BH is such a key feature removing it seems relentless even modifieing it (dumpen up) and adding 1hive leap would have been ok but I really cant accept removing it, lets hope I change my mind in alpha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played NS2 since the first day it was ever in-house play tested up until years later, and the people we played with never bhopped. And surprise TrC, we had a great time.
In fact, the spawn of competitive NS started from EC vs TAU way way back in the day with players like SentrySteve. Beyond 2005 NS's scene may have evolved, and that's great. But I'm telling you that NS without bhopping was still an incredibly fun, immerse, balanced game in the hands of casual playing mixed in with those who just natural excel at shooters, like Steve.
Your definition of a key feature is in fact, a very minor feature of making NS a fun, atmospheric, entertaining game.
I know that in its current setting bunnyhopping is intended as a feature of NS1, but I strongly believe as well that it is there as a makeshift replacement for lack of a better alternative.