ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
I wonder if rocket jumping is also frowned upon by the new generation as BH is.
Seems to me this discussion has come to argueing over the increased skill ceiling that player movement adds. Why hate something because its difficult? Life isn't a hand out.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmIeL4FXWAM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmIeL4FXWAM</a> - 2:17 "Only on the Moon is bunny hopping a valid movement method"
'nuff said, now stop that.
It's like watching rugrats debate the taste of sand vs mud.
<!--quoteo(post=1777370:date=Jul 7 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 7 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be quite a logical fallacy; there is no equivalence between skill and bunnyhopping.
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping. Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right to point out that status as a differentiating skill is not enough to put something in a game. Snipering sucks in my opinion, but it is of course a differentiating skill.
There has to be something else. The affects on the game must also be taken into consideration.
When one pits bunnyhopping marines against bunnyhopping skulks, the bunnyhopping marines are canceled out. Pure and simple. The marines and skulks are simply playing with more complexity. That's it. When you put a highly skilled player in a low skilled environment, of course the high skilled player is going to dominate.
That doesn't mean the high skilled player's skills are broken. No, not at all. It means a skill difference exists. But we already knew that when we said "high skill versus low skill".
So let's get back to the original questions: Is bunny hopping a differentiating skill? Of course it is. Players who practice it have an advantage over those who don't.
And, does it add something good to the game? No and yes. It increasing the speed of the game, meaning every other combat skill of players must also increase (For example, marines have to aim better so they can hit the faster skulks. Skulks have to have a higher situational awareness so they can bunnyhop around things and people and know where exactly the marines are and where they are moving). That is great in my book. Making a part of speed skill based instead an intrinsic part of the game is much better. It makes the game interesting. If every skulk ran at double speed intrinsically, yes the game would be faster and less forgiving of mistakes, but it wouldn't be less fun than if the players were responsible for that speed AND could get faster if they got better. That's why bunny hopping is good.
However, it is very hard to learn and understand. It is not simple and it makes ZERO logical sense, unless one happens to be intimately knowledgable not only about the interface of the game (what gamers actually can see and care about) but also the underlying code of the game engine (something they shouldn't have to know about in a perfect world).
Summarily, its unintuitive and doesn't make any sense. But there are tons of skills like that. Like Mutilisk Stacking from Starcraft 1. The advantage in competition it provides is simple and obvious, like bunny hopping. However, WHY it works and HOW someone is supposed to discover it is NOT. Just like bunny hopping.
However, I, like many other people, admit that bunny hopping is both good and bad. For NS2, bunny hopping can be replaced by something "good and more good", not something "good and bad".
<!--quoteo(post=1777435:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:41 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Jul 8 2010, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if rocket jumping is also frowned upon by the new generation as BH is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe it's more accepted because it's relatively easy (requires input only at start), intuitive (explosions cause knockback, therefore...), and has a marked trade-off (hp/ammo loss).
The reason why i think many competitive players would hate to see it go, is because in competitive play if a group of 6 skulks run at 2 marines in a hallway.. they're dead.. Even if they were ambushing, most of the time you can kill them all. That initial burst of speed that the aliens get, makes it so that they have to focus on the one who's quickest or else he'll get some damage in, and the rest of the aliens can go in right after and rip apart the 2 marines. It is very rare that in a competitive match that a running skulk and/or ambushing skulks get the better hand of marines. The only time this really works is if there's distractions, spores, fade, gorge bait, to lure them to you. Anyway, i'm all up for Bhop to be in NS2 or even out of NS2, i believe that leap as a first hive ability will be wonderful, with or without the addition of bhop.
(Also, bunnyhop is amazing to get from one hive to another, and to get into positions to coordinate an ambush, before you're heard by marines)
<!--quoteo(post=1777251:date=Jul 7 2010, 09:03 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Jul 7 2010, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a good read about a game with a similar movement skill that originated as an exploit. The developers added it back in after removing it. <a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124399" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=124399</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting. This is something that happened in Super Smash Bros Melee. Its an epic fighter game for Gamecube. Requires fast reflexes and lots of tactical intelligence. However soon after the release a glitch was found in the game called <a href="http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Wavedash" target="_blank">"wave dashing"</a>. This can be done by jumping in the air a bit and air dodging back in the ground while holding a shield. This enables faster movement and takes a big while to learn its effective combat usage. But does this mean the game is broken? No, on the contrary, games with low-skilled gamers won't be affected at all because they won't use it. Of course this doesn't apply 1:1 to bunnyhop because bunnyhop is such an essential skill for a skulk (in SSBM, a good gamer doesn't necessarily need wave dashing to win). Then they released a sequel called Super Smash Bros Brawl which didn't have any of these new features and was slower. Guess which one is more popular in competitive circles? SSBM. Some people are working on a mod that adds Wave dashing, L-cancelling and other found "features" to the Brawl. The transition from Melee to Brawl was another example of previously idiosyncratic movement implemented and then removed. It happened with HL2 and some other games aswell.
Truth to be told, I think best games were done in 90's and early part of this decade. Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Xenogears, Final Fantasies VI-IX, Legend of Zelda, Half-Life, TFC, Original Day of Defeat, SSBM, Starcraft, NS, X-Wing's, Call of Duty: UO, Battlezones and Jedi Knight to name a few. I think games that are coming out today aren't as original as they were back then. I'm not blaming devs making a conservative decision here though, its their money and reputation on the line.
Anyway, I think bunnyhop added a lot to competitive gaming but killing skulks that cannot bunnyhop is kind of brutal. Here again I think the problem is that we have <i>unbalanced</i> games, not the skill itself. An issue is that for low-skilled marines, it'll be harder to master skulking than marine'ing. A solution would be an easy-to-learn but hard-to-master movement technique that stays interesting. When alpha comes out, we shall see.
Let's be honest here. I think people who haven't played competitively, don't know on average how much it adds into this game. There're valid arguments against bhop, including the learning curve. In Europe atleast, I know hardly any competitive player who thinks bhop doesn't add value to the game. I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just saying its not mere coincidence that almost all, and atleast most competitive players agree bhop is a great feature of NS1.
Maybe we'll have different game modes for public play and competitive play, either official and non-official. I think such solution would highly win-win.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm the opposite. After playing counter strike and tf2 and day of defeat where everyone bunny hops it gets old. It doesn't feel genuine to the game where you can fly around the map x5-10 times your original speed. Just remove bunny hopping and put in the sprint and jump. So the game is fair for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know a lot of competitive NS players who started playing TF2 competitively and are now top-players in the game, even then they say TF2 is just too easy compared to NS and doesn't have the ambition that NS gameplay had.
<!--quoteo(post=1777432:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:05 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jul 8 2010, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I assume you are now quoting me without directly quoting me, and believe this is somehow license to put words in my mouth? Nowhere do I say that NS2 need include bunnyhopping, but I do point out that NS is and always was founded on movement and twitch skills, so if not bunnyhop, then a suitable differentiating movement skill will be required. Obviously this is not an easy feat and every replacement suggestion to date has been heavily scrutinized (including some of my own), so until something better can be found, I echo TrC's points as to why you can't replace something if you don't have something better to replace it with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surely someone as apt in argumentation as you would be aware that paraphrasing, when done correctly, is preferred to quotation. You'd also be aware that most unintentional paraphrasing mistakes are due to poor clarity of the originating quote. I have suggested that you clarify that quote, while proposing my reasoning behind my interpretation (which I still believe makes sense), and you've conveniently discarded it. In any case, I'm not saying that you believe that bunnyhopping has to be in game. I'm saying that it is what you have said at that specific point (maybe unintentionally).
Truth be told, it's rather attitudes like this I'm angry about [upon learning the bunnyhop removal]: <!--quoteo(post=1776740:date=Jul 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Practilly killing the game, I fear you are wrong but if you have something to backup your troll go ahead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, if you truly believe that bunnyhopping itself isn't a requirement but (seeing as how it's removed from NS2) 'a suitable differentiating movement skill will be required', I don't see what you're trying to get at, because this is exactly what UWE has promised us. At this point, it's pretty much speculation, but if you want to complain about how bunnyhopping is the better alternative, wait for release. I'm pretty sure our expectations as to how far the skill curve goes are similar. However I have faith that UWE will do it well, that is to say it starts lower but goes at least as high.
That being said, I think we've pretty much hit a dead end here, as all you're managing to do is attacking my argumentation form without even considering yours. Besides, we're agreeing on the core thread subject (bunnyhopping can be removed if alternatives are included in the game). Where we differ is that I'm supposing that alternatives will be included, therefore bunnyhopping should be removed. We're basically fighting off topic and it seems overall pointless. Enjoy writing your rebuttal, but don't expect any further response from my end. Because apparently you don't read them.
<!--quoteo(post=1777357:date=Jul 7 2010, 10:16 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 7 2010, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me just address this part too. I haven't missed your point, I get your point...You say <10 people in the entire NS community can BH, and then you say BHing is a big contributor to what made NS special but only <10 people could do it... how does that make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did not get a single thing I said. Bunny hopping is one part in an equation that equaled an awesome skill based game. Very few people could use their near perfect bunny hopping and aiming to dominate an enemy team.
When I see replies like this followed by reasons why bunny hop like mechanics should be removed it reminds me why there are no good arguments for the removal of bunny hop like mechanics. It's like listening to sarah palin try to make a point. It can't be done.
Of course there is a good argument against bunny hopping. On these forums are probably 5% of the people who bought it making 95% of the noise. Then there are a few of that 5% making lots of posts about why it should be in the game.
Most people want to be able to jump into an online game that is intuitive and doesn't have a load of people flying round the level completely dominating. It is not fun. Like you say, it is the few who spend hours and hours (or have played fir many years) who can bh effectively. That should not be the target skill level.
The introduction to a game should be the ability to replicate your ability to move in space in real life. Simple controls, with upgrades that you get through the game.
If you would compare it with real life and the ability of a player to learn the complexities of a game, it is as if someone has given you a gun and sent you off to learn to be soldier. You can kill but still have to learn over time. Bunny hopping is like throwing a feather weight boxer into the ring with a heavy weight and asking him to win. It's not going to happen. It's not intuitive, it's not fun (apart to those owning) and not intuitive to the 95% who are probably paying for this game and can't be arsed to learn it along with the fact that the game is going to be complex enough already. Especially with the fact that teamplay as being a cog in the machine to work well, not the machine itself whizzing round the level at 100mph.
I have been playing pc games for 10 + years, bh is fun, it's just not appropriate.
<!--quoteo(post=1777508:date=Jul 9 2010, 03:43 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 9 2010, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->mumumum<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You might check few posts back instead of quoting the very first. but to kite it, I believe any other "equally good" skill-based movement could replace bunnyhob but its very unlikely UWE will manage to do one thus it may be safer to include bunnyhob even if its modified (1st leap, or easier timings).
<!--quoteo(post=1777420:date=Jul 8 2010, 03:35 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 8 2010, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Bunnyhob is a relevant skill (both races) -No better alternative has been made since ns release, hard to believe they will come up with a better one. -Floor-rocketing instead ? -Removing bunnyhob would make game less skillful (unless better one is implimented) -^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW, did everyone litterally ignore my first post into this thread completely covering this issue/discussion from every possible angle?
The Marines have <b><u>SPRINT</u></b>. The Kharaa have <b><u>LEAP UNLOCKED</u></b>, when at least 1 Hive is fully built. (Since you Spawn as Skulk, and at the beginning of the game you start with a Hive fully built, you immediately have access to a "Free Movement Ability". Free meaning it does not cost res to unlock/research; just using adrenaline is its only cost.)
There is your "Advanced" Movement Mechanics.
/ENDTHREADALREADY?
-OR-
Change it to a meaningful discussion of other possible movement mechanics you could add on top of these two. Otherwise this thread is a pointless debate that doesn't do anything.
You are all... -_-
(And no, this was not backseat moderating, just stating the facts.)
*****
Also, I really should be quoting more than one person to "prove my points", but the end result is the same. So I figured I'd just keep it shorter. <----- For anyone that wanted to be sarcastic, which I know some of you would have been if I didn't state that.
<!--quoteo(post=1777539:date=Jul 9 2010, 11:32 AM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jul 9 2010, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rumbling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How clear one has to be? SPRINT is inferior to bunny, Having only LEAP as a movement acceleration is retarded. There has yet to be BETTER SKILL BASED MOVEMENT in ######ken 7 years WHY would UWE create one NOW. Some mindless zombie answers probably "but they made NS1" did they invent bunnyhob? No they did not, it is partly a fluke that NS1 become the game it is today. Really please, when you see something think how it might affect the gameplay instead of "it looks cool" and if you are too lazy to learn something stop moaning how wrong or imbalanced it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1777543:date=Jul 9 2010, 05:45 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 9 2010, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How clear one has to be? SPRINT is inferior to bunny, Having only LEAP as a movement acceleration is retarded. There has yet to be BETTER SKILL BASED MOVEMENT in ######ken 7 years WHY would UWE create one NOW. Some mindless zombie answers probably "but they made NS1" did they invent bunnyhob? No they did not, it is partly a fluke that NS1 become the game it is today. Really please, when you see something think how it might affect the gameplay instead of "it looks cool" and if you are too lazy to learn something stop moaning how wrong or imbalanced it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are confusing right here. Can you please rephrase that?
<!--quoteo(post=1777536:date=Jul 9 2010, 08:20 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 9 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You might check few posts back instead of quoting the very first. but to kite it, I believe any other "equally good" skill-based movement could replace bunnyhob but its very unlikely UWE will manage to do one thus it may be safer to include bunnyhob even if its modified (1st leap, or easier timings).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You believe that any other equally good movement skill can replace bunnyhop, but you believe that equally good movement skills don't exist. How is that different from believing that bunnyhop is essential? Complain at game release. UWE has promised skill movement, hoping that they succeed is pretty much all that can be done at this moment. Supposing that they will fail is bad faith. Again, wait and see.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has yet to be BETTER SKILL BASED MOVEMENT in ######ken 7 years WHY would UWE create one NOW<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they're creating a new game and have their own engine? There can be no alternative no BH in NS1, I'll agree to that. But movement in the Spark engine has nothing to do with the Quake engine. Why would they want to recreate bunnyhopping when they can go back to the movement skill drawing board? While I do agree fully that bunnyhopping makes for good movement, I believe it shouldn't be part of NS2 because it doesn't make any sense. Why does turning mid-air make you go faster than going forward?
<!--quoteo(post=1777573:date=Jul 9 2010, 09:34 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 9 2010, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Complain at game release. Why would they want to recreate bunnyhopping when they can go back to the movement skill drawing board?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's weak anti-forum blathering. We're all here because we're discussing the prospect of NS2, the "don't say anything until it's released" attitude is obnoxious and counter-productive to discussion.
A better movement skill is independent of its existence. TrC nor I or anyone else in this thread are saying bunnyhop is essential, but rather that it is <i>essentially</i> the only movement skill that is proven to be skillful and works in NS (others are: rocket jump, sliding/surfing). Just because you have a new engine doesn't mean you go back to the drawing board; because they have Spark, do they now have to re-invent the HUD, or crosshairs, or aiming? Things that work are kept in the design, and so far we have not seen any sign of a movement skill that will work in NS2 (hive 1 leap isn't a skill, and we've no idea what this new "bunnyhop" is for the skulk). So contrary to your pleas to stifle discussion, we're going to speculate, and we'll do so until the community thinks of something, or we're given more information, or NS2 is released and magically we encounter a movement skill there that has been perfected with rainbows and sunshine dust so that it is automatically better in every way than one that took 10+ years over multiple engines to exist and we'll never say another word about it. the end.
Again, I don't know what else to say seeing how stubborn you are. Apparently argumentation works only one way for you so why bother explaining my point of view?
@ssjYoda Are we not allowed to want NS2 not as NS is today (...say different in some ways but similar in others)? Or were you asking why I was posting in this thread, to that I have no answer. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1777584:date=Jul 9 2010, 11:22 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 9 2010, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so why bother explaining my point of view?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You already did and your arguments have been exhausted, that's why you shouldn't bother. Let's review shall we: 1. "We can't discuss it because NS2 isn't released yet." --> countered with: this is a forum for NS2 discussion, obviously we're discussing things that haven't been released yet.
2. "Bunnyhop is unintuitive, let's do something better" --> countered with: "Yes, let's. First to find it is first to end this discussion. No one's found a better alternative, hence we'll keep discussing."
3. "But they said they're going to have a bunnyhop alternative on release" --> countered with: "Great, but we've no idea what that is, or if it works, so until then we'll keep discussing alternatives. That way if we do discover it needs tweaking (which it surely will along with everything else on release), we'll at least be prepared with a list of suggestions."
I did like NS1! That doesn't mean I want NS2 to be the same game.
Someone said BH made NS1 the games it is 'today', I'll be honest I can't enjoy NS today because the community is too polarised, and I either don't have the skill or time (I have no idea which, but the latter is definitely true) to be good enough to play NS1 with the Vets. I loved my time for the first few years after release, but perhaps that's more about having a young community than anything about the game. Maybe I'd be able to enjoy NS again even if it was exactly the same as long as I could own some noobs :P.
But really the point I was trying to make, completely aside from my personal experience, is that it's possible to want something like but not the same as NS1 from NS2. Whilst no-one may have actually said "I want NS1 but shiny" there does seem to be that undercurrent in some posts, hence me weighing in with my rather tongue in cheek comment.
<b>Incredible!</b> In the 5 years or so since this game became too poor for me to continue playing it, the community appears to have developed to the point where more than 1 person can explain in a reasonable fashion why complex movement skills are a good thing for the game! I'm taken aback, it's almost as if i don't need to post anything on a bunnyhopping thread!
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You've got many who see it as a way to gain an edge via skill, increasing the skill ceiling and allowing better, more dedicated players to gain an advantage. It's also a very smooth skill-to-performance system. You can progress about linearly in bhop skill and get about a linear gain in performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen to this guy. NS did a few things that were more or less unique, and it was notable for succesfully breaking from the genre mould. Everyone now thinks i'm talking about the RTS elements but actually one of the most interesting things NS pulled off properly was melee combat vs ranged combat in a FPS that didn't suck giant monkey balls. In order for melee vs ranged to work at higher levels of play in a FPS, it's necessary that there is some skill quotient to the melee side that will properly scale all the way up with player ability, in order to match the wild scaling of people's aiming ability when using accurate weapons. Now you could avoid that by having weapons that randomly spray and recoil all over the place making aim basically irrelevant, and thus removing the requirement for the melee class to scale (see most recent 'realistic' FPS games) but that results in your game being arse. Since aiming really isnt relevant at all to a melee class, a complex and very deep movement system is ESSENTIAL to making these fights work at all skill levels.
That movement system doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there's a reason that an unintended physics quirk from a 15 year old game is still a relevant topic in FPS games right up to the present day - bunnyhopping happens to have accidentally ticked all the boxes as a near perfect system of deep, scaling movement skill that can apply to any FPS game. Tribes skiing / T3 hook is also a very good system, probably one of the only other movement systems notable for this, but it also can't apply to a game like NS because it requires a very specific style of high flying jetpack bouncing action over mountains. Tribes was ACE, but NS isnt Tribes.
If you want to replace bunnyhopping in a game that requires a complex movement skillset, you need to create something that dramatically scales with practice and technique; gives results which vary wildly based on the player's ability; fits into the current gameplay in a way that still allows you to think about and perform everything that you would normally be doing <b>at the same time</b>; and is unique and varied enough for people to develop in different ways such that they can feel as though it is part of their personal gameplay. In effect, you need to add something that is equivalent to aiming and prediction - because whatever you add will become 'aiming' for melee aliens. This is why something as simple and binary as a UT dodge move, or a sprint button does not cut it. Ideas like this are the spawn of people who don't understand the problem they are trying to solve - it's not about "making skulks faster". If it was, you'd just <b>make them faster</b>.
If all the skulk has to work with is incredibly basic 'push forward to go forward' movement, and a leap button with no quakeworld bananajump control, along with the ability to stick to walls which is exactly the same form of motion as being on the ground... While the marines have precise aiming while moving to develop... The inevitable result is that if you balance skulk vs marine at any particular skill level, your balance will be wildly off at skill levels significantly higher or lower than that. Skulk movement will be so simple there will not be anything deep to develop after the most basic level of learning where to attack people in the map, and having your mouse sensitivity high enough to run around people's ankles without missing bites. As well as your balance being off, playing skulk as a skilled player will also feel like being the fat kid picked last to stand in goal.
Personally i'd take bunnyhopping on everything including the marines, obviously with the marine's max speed still being significantly lower than a hopping skulk, more aspects of the game to develop as a high end skill is not a bad thing.
It's inevitable that even a potentially solid discussion on gameplay mechanics like this thread would have its fair share of troll faced insects like JimyD to punctuate the intelligent posts. Your 'LoLZ' on the end of my rant is like a studio outtake of someone falling into a pie stuck at the end of a great movie. You can take gratification from knowing that at least someone in the thread finds you entertaining, even if not for the right reasons.
Vehicle accidents sure attract a lot of onlookers.
Comments
Seems to me this discussion has come to argueing over the increased skill ceiling that player movement adds. Why hate something because its difficult? Life isn't a hand out.
"Only on the Moon is bunny hopping a valid movement method"
'nuff said, now stop that.
It's like watching rugrats debate the taste of sand vs mud.
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping.
Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right to point out that status as a differentiating skill is not enough to put something in a game. Snipering sucks in my opinion, but it is of course a differentiating skill.
There has to be something else. The affects on the game must also be taken into consideration.
When one pits bunnyhopping marines against bunnyhopping skulks, the bunnyhopping marines are canceled out. Pure and simple. The marines and skulks are simply playing with more complexity. That's it. When you put a highly skilled player in a low skilled environment, of course the high skilled player is going to dominate.
That doesn't mean the high skilled player's skills are broken. No, not at all. It means a skill difference exists. But we already knew that when we said "high skill versus low skill".
So let's get back to the original questions:
Is bunny hopping a differentiating skill? Of course it is. Players who practice it have an advantage over those who don't.
And, does it add something good to the game? No and yes. It increasing the speed of the game, meaning every other combat skill of players must also increase (For example, marines have to aim better so they can hit the faster skulks. Skulks have to have a higher situational awareness so they can bunnyhop around things and people and know where exactly the marines are and where they are moving). That is great in my book. Making a part of speed skill based instead an intrinsic part of the game is much better. It makes the game interesting. If every skulk ran at double speed intrinsically, yes the game would be faster and less forgiving of mistakes, but it wouldn't be less fun than if the players were responsible for that speed AND could get faster if they got better. That's why bunny hopping is good.
However, it is very hard to learn and understand. It is not simple and it makes ZERO logical sense, unless one happens to be intimately knowledgable not only about the interface of the game (what gamers actually can see and care about) but also the underlying code of the game engine (something they shouldn't have to know about in a perfect world).
Summarily, its unintuitive and doesn't make any sense. But there are tons of skills like that. Like Mutilisk Stacking from Starcraft 1. The advantage in competition it provides is simple and obvious, like bunny hopping. However, WHY it works and HOW someone is supposed to discover it is NOT. Just like bunny hopping.
However, I, like many other people, admit that bunny hopping is both good and bad. For NS2, bunny hopping can be replaced by something "good and more good", not something "good and bad".
I believe it's more accepted because it's relatively easy (requires input only at start), intuitive (explosions cause knockback, therefore...), and has a marked trade-off (hp/ammo loss).
(Also, bunnyhop is amazing to get from one hive to another, and to get into positions to coordinate an ambush, before you're heard by marines)
<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124399" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=124399</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting. This is something that happened in Super Smash Bros Melee. Its an epic fighter game for Gamecube. Requires fast reflexes and lots of tactical intelligence. However soon after the release a glitch was found in the game called <a href="http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Wavedash" target="_blank">"wave dashing"</a>. This can be done by jumping in the air a bit and air dodging back in the ground while holding a shield. This enables faster movement and takes a big while to learn its effective combat usage. But does this mean the game is broken? No, on the contrary, games with low-skilled gamers won't be affected at all because they won't use it. Of course this doesn't apply 1:1 to bunnyhop because bunnyhop is such an essential skill for a skulk (in SSBM, a good gamer doesn't necessarily need wave dashing to win). Then they released a sequel called Super Smash Bros Brawl which didn't have any of these new features and was slower. Guess which one is more popular in competitive circles? SSBM. Some people are working on a mod that adds Wave dashing, L-cancelling and other found "features" to the Brawl. The transition from Melee to Brawl was another example of previously idiosyncratic movement implemented and then removed. It happened with HL2 and some other games aswell.
Truth to be told, I think best games were done in 90's and early part of this decade. Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Xenogears, Final Fantasies VI-IX, Legend of Zelda, Half-Life, TFC, Original Day of Defeat, SSBM, Starcraft, NS, X-Wing's, Call of Duty: UO, Battlezones and Jedi Knight to name a few. I think games that are coming out today aren't as original as they were back then. I'm not blaming devs making a conservative decision here though, its their money and reputation on the line.
Anyway, I think bunnyhop added a lot to competitive gaming but killing skulks that cannot bunnyhop is kind of brutal. Here again I think the problem is that we have <i>unbalanced</i> games, not the skill itself. An issue is that for low-skilled marines, it'll be harder to master skulking than marine'ing. A solution would be an easy-to-learn but hard-to-master movement technique that stays interesting. When alpha comes out, we shall see.
Let's be honest here. I think people who haven't played competitively, don't know on average how much it adds into this game. There're valid arguments against bhop, including the learning curve. In Europe atleast, I know hardly any competitive player who thinks bhop doesn't add value to the game. I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just saying its not mere coincidence that almost all, and atleast most competitive players agree bhop is a great feature of NS1.
Maybe we'll have different game modes for public play and competitive play, either official and non-official. I think such solution would highly win-win.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm the opposite. After playing counter strike and tf2 and day of defeat where everyone bunny hops it gets old. It doesn't feel genuine to the game where you can fly around the map x5-10 times your original speed. Just remove bunny hopping and put in the sprint and jump. So the game is fair for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know a lot of competitive NS players who started playing TF2 competitively and are now top-players in the game, even then they say TF2 is just too easy compared to NS and doesn't have the ambition that NS gameplay had.
Surely someone as apt in argumentation as you would be aware that paraphrasing, when done correctly, is preferred to quotation. You'd also be aware that most unintentional paraphrasing mistakes are due to poor clarity of the originating quote. I have suggested that you clarify that quote, while proposing my reasoning behind my interpretation (which I still believe makes sense), and you've conveniently discarded it.
In any case, I'm not saying that you believe that bunnyhopping has to be in game. I'm saying that it is what you have said at that specific point (maybe unintentionally).
Truth be told, it's rather attitudes like this I'm angry about [upon learning the bunnyhop removal]:
<!--quoteo(post=1776740:date=Jul 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Practilly killing the game, I fear you are wrong but if you have something to backup your troll go ahead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, if you truly believe that bunnyhopping itself isn't a requirement but (seeing as how it's removed from NS2) 'a suitable differentiating movement skill will be required', I don't see what you're trying to get at, because this is exactly what UWE has promised us. At this point, it's pretty much speculation, but if you want to complain about how bunnyhopping is the better alternative, wait for release.
I'm pretty sure our expectations as to how far the skill curve goes are similar. However I have faith that UWE will do it well, that is to say it starts lower but goes at least as high.
That being said, I think we've pretty much hit a dead end here, as all you're managing to do is attacking my argumentation form without even considering yours. Besides, we're agreeing on the core thread subject (bunnyhopping can be removed if alternatives are included in the game). Where we differ is that I'm supposing that alternatives will be included, therefore bunnyhopping should be removed. We're basically fighting off topic and it seems overall pointless.
Enjoy writing your rebuttal, but don't expect any further response from my end. Because apparently you don't read them.
You did not get a single thing I said. Bunny hopping is one part in an equation that equaled an awesome skill based game. Very few people could use their near perfect bunny hopping and aiming to dominate an enemy team.
When I see replies like this followed by reasons why bunny hop like mechanics should be removed it reminds me why there are no good arguments for the removal of bunny hop like mechanics. It's like listening to sarah palin try to make a point. It can't be done.
Most people want to be able to jump into an online game that is intuitive and doesn't have a load of people flying round the level completely dominating. It is not fun. Like you say, it is the few who spend hours and hours (or have played fir many years) who can bh effectively. That should not be the target skill level.
The introduction to a game should be the ability to replicate your ability to move in space in real life. Simple controls, with upgrades that you get through the game.
If you would compare it with real life and the ability of a player to learn the complexities of a game, it is as if someone has given you a gun and sent you off to learn to be soldier. You can kill but still have to learn over time. Bunny hopping is like throwing a feather weight boxer into the ring with a heavy weight and asking him to win. It's not going to happen. It's not intuitive, it's not fun (apart to those owning) and not intuitive to the 95% who are probably paying for this game and can't be arsed to learn it along with the fact that the game is going to be complex enough already. Especially with the fact that teamplay as being a cog in the machine to work well, not the machine itself whizzing round the level at 100mph.
I have been playing pc games for 10 + years, bh is fun, it's just not appropriate.
You might check few posts back instead of quoting the very first. but to kite it, I believe any other "equally good" skill-based movement could replace bunnyhob but its very unlikely UWE will manage to do one thus it may be safer to include bunnyhob even if its modified (1st leap, or easier timings).
-No better alternative has been made since ns release, hard to believe they will come up with a better one.
-Floor-rocketing instead ?
-Removing bunnyhob would make game less skillful (unless better one is implimented) -^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW, did everyone litterally ignore my first post into this thread completely covering this issue/discussion from every possible angle?
The Marines have <b><u>SPRINT</u></b>.
The Kharaa have <b><u>LEAP UNLOCKED</u></b>, when at least 1 Hive is fully built.
(Since you Spawn as Skulk, and at the beginning of the game you start with a Hive fully built, you immediately have access to a "Free Movement Ability". Free meaning it does not cost res to unlock/research; just using adrenaline is its only cost.)
There is your "Advanced" Movement Mechanics.
/ENDTHREADALREADY?
-OR-
Change it to a meaningful discussion of other possible movement mechanics you could add on top of these two. Otherwise this thread is a pointless debate that doesn't do anything.
You are all... -_-
(And no, this was not backseat moderating, just stating the facts.)
*****
Also, I really should be quoting more than one person to "prove my points", but the end result is the same. So I figured I'd just keep it shorter. <----- For anyone that wanted to be sarcastic, which I know some of you would have been if I didn't state that.
How clear one has to be? SPRINT is inferior to bunny, Having only LEAP as a movement acceleration is retarded. There has yet to be BETTER SKILL BASED MOVEMENT in ######ken 7 years WHY would UWE create one NOW. Some mindless zombie answers probably "but they made NS1" did they invent bunnyhob? No they did not, it is partly a fluke that NS1 become the game it is today. Really please, when you see something think how it might affect the gameplay instead of "it looks cool" and if you are too lazy to learn something stop moaning how wrong or imbalanced it is.
You are confusing right here. Can you please rephrase that?
You believe that any other equally good movement skill can replace bunnyhop, but you believe that equally good movement skills don't exist. How is that different from believing that bunnyhop is essential?
Complain at game release. UWE has promised skill movement, hoping that they succeed is pretty much all that can be done at this moment. Supposing that they will fail is bad faith.
Again, wait and see.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has yet to be BETTER SKILL BASED MOVEMENT in ######ken 7 years WHY would UWE create one NOW<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they're creating a new game and have their own engine? There can be no alternative no BH in NS1, I'll agree to that. But movement in the Spark engine has nothing to do with the Quake engine. Why would they want to recreate bunnyhopping when they can go back to the movement skill drawing board?
While I do agree fully that bunnyhopping makes for good movement, I believe it shouldn't be part of NS2 because it doesn't make any sense. Why does turning mid-air make you go faster than going forward?
Why would they want to recreate bunnyhopping when they can go back to the movement skill drawing board?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's weak anti-forum blathering. We're all here because we're discussing the prospect of NS2, the "don't say anything until it's released" attitude is obnoxious and counter-productive to discussion.
A better movement skill is independent of its existence. TrC nor I or anyone else in this thread are saying bunnyhop is essential, but rather that it is <i>essentially</i> the only movement skill that is proven to be skillful and works in NS (others are: rocket jump, sliding/surfing). Just because you have a new engine doesn't mean you go back to the drawing board; because they have Spark, do they now have to re-invent the HUD, or crosshairs, or aiming? Things that work are kept in the design, and so far we have not seen any sign of a movement skill that will work in NS2 (hive 1 leap isn't a skill, and we've no idea what this new "bunnyhop" is for the skulk). So contrary to your pleas to stifle discussion, we're going to speculate, and we'll do so until the community thinks of something, or we're given more information, or NS2 is released and magically we encounter a movement skill there that has been perfected with rainbows and sunshine dust so that it is automatically better in every way than one that took 10+ years over multiple engines to exist and we'll never say another word about it. the end.
You already did and your arguments have been exhausted, that's why you shouldn't bother.
Let's review shall we:
1. "We can't discuss it because NS2 isn't released yet."
--> countered with: this is a forum for NS2 discussion, obviously we're discussing things that haven't been released yet.
2. "Bunnyhop is unintuitive, let's do something better"
--> countered with: "Yes, let's. First to find it is first to end this discussion. No one's found a better alternative, hence we'll keep discussing."
3. "But they said they're going to have a bunnyhop alternative on release"
--> countered with: "Great, but we've no idea what that is, or if it works, so until then we'll keep discussing alternatives. That way if we do discover it needs tweaking (which it surely will along with everything else on release), we'll at least be prepared with a list of suggestions."
Missed anything?
Someone said BH made NS1 the games it is 'today', I'll be honest I can't enjoy NS today because the community is too polarised, and I either don't have the skill or time (I have no idea which, but the latter is definitely true) to be good enough to play NS1 with the Vets. I loved my time for the first few years after release, but perhaps that's more about having a young community than anything about the game. Maybe I'd be able to enjoy NS again even if it was exactly the same as long as I could own some noobs :P.
But really the point I was trying to make, completely aside from my personal experience, is that it's possible to want something like but not the same as NS1 from NS2. Whilst no-one may have actually said "I want NS1 but shiny" there does seem to be that undercurrent in some posts, hence me weighing in with my rather tongue in cheek comment.
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You've got many who see it as a way to gain an edge via skill, increasing the skill ceiling and allowing better, more dedicated players to gain an advantage. It's also a very smooth skill-to-performance system. You can progress about linearly in bhop skill and get about a linear gain in performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen to this guy. NS did a few things that were more or less unique, and it was notable for succesfully breaking from the genre mould. Everyone now thinks i'm talking about the RTS elements but actually one of the most interesting things NS pulled off properly was melee combat vs ranged combat in a FPS that didn't suck giant monkey balls. In order for melee vs ranged to work at higher levels of play in a FPS, it's necessary that there is some skill quotient to the melee side that will properly scale all the way up with player ability, in order to match the wild scaling of people's aiming ability when using accurate weapons. Now you could avoid that by having weapons that randomly spray and recoil all over the place making aim basically irrelevant, and thus removing the requirement for the melee class to scale (see most recent 'realistic' FPS games) but that results in your game being arse. Since aiming really isnt relevant at all to a melee class, a complex and very deep movement system is ESSENTIAL to making these fights work at all skill levels.
That movement system doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there's a reason that an unintended physics quirk from a 15 year old game is still a relevant topic in FPS games right up to the present day - bunnyhopping happens to have accidentally ticked all the boxes as a near perfect system of deep, scaling movement skill that can apply to any FPS game. Tribes skiing / T3 hook is also a very good system, probably one of the only other movement systems notable for this, but it also can't apply to a game like NS because it requires a very specific style of high flying jetpack bouncing action over mountains. Tribes was ACE, but NS isnt Tribes.
If you want to replace bunnyhopping in a game that requires a complex movement skillset, you need to create something that dramatically scales with practice and technique; gives results which vary wildly based on the player's ability; fits into the current gameplay in a way that still allows you to think about and perform everything that you would normally be doing <b>at the same time</b>; and is unique and varied enough for people to develop in different ways such that they can feel as though it is part of their personal gameplay. In effect, you need to add something that is equivalent to aiming and prediction - because whatever you add will become 'aiming' for melee aliens. This is why something as simple and binary as a UT dodge move, or a sprint button does not cut it. Ideas like this are the spawn of people who don't understand the problem they are trying to solve - it's not about "making skulks faster". If it was, you'd just <b>make them faster</b>.
If all the skulk has to work with is incredibly basic 'push forward to go forward' movement, and a leap button with no quakeworld bananajump control, along with the ability to stick to walls which is exactly the same form of motion as being on the ground... While the marines have precise aiming while moving to develop... The inevitable result is that if you balance skulk vs marine at any particular skill level, your balance will be wildly off at skill levels significantly higher or lower than that. Skulk movement will be so simple there will not be anything deep to develop after the most basic level of learning where to attack people in the map, and having your mouse sensitivity high enough to run around people's ankles without missing bites. As well as your balance being off, playing skulk as a skilled player will also feel like being the fat kid picked last to stand in goal.
Personally i'd take bunnyhopping on everything including the marines, obviously with the marine's max speed still being significantly lower than a hopping skulk, more aspects of the game to develop as a high end skill is not a bad thing.
There will be Air-Strafing/Turning for Skulks, not Bunny Hopping(at least if they were smart, otherwise Leap will hardly be used).
LOL(it needed to be said again).
<!--quoteo(post=1777541:date=Jul 9 2010, 02:05 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 9 2010, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Jimyd won the thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like a few pages back, and won/defended the Title Belt a few times already for the victory dance.
Vehicle accidents sure attract a lot of onlookers.
There will be Air-Strafing/Turning for Skulks, not Bunny Hopping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could have just told us you're on the development team from the beginning and saved everyone a lot of time.