<!--quoteo(post=1774054:date=Jun 9 2010, 02:57 AM:name=Kerostasis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kerostasis @ Jun 9 2010, 02:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason this blindingly obvious fix hasn't been implented years ago is because it doesn't work quite the way you expect: You will stop bunnyhopping, yes, but you will also stop all cases where a player has a legitimate reason to be moving faster than max run speed. For example: using leap, using blink, using a jetpack, falling long distances (you've just completely removed fall damage).
Your solution has fairly significant unintended consequences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The method of a GROUND SPEED cap has been used for years. It does not interfere with the other abilities you mentioned because those are all air movement. It effectively limits only bunnyhop speed to what the developer wants. I'm pretty sure NS has one or else skulks would be able to go faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1774278:date=Jun 10 2010, 01:59 PM:name=GrapeVine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrapeVine @ Jun 10 2010, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is a big chunk of NS's skill ceiling which makes it harder for new players to enjoy the game. Without spending years to practice bunny hopping they will always be at a disadvantage. I don't want this in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we just had some sort of experience level separator, that wouldn't be a problem. How about I reference Starcraft 2 for no other reason except it is popular.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1774341:date=Jun 11 2010, 12:42 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 11 2010, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we just had some sort of experience level separator, that wouldn't be a problem. How about I reference Starcraft 2 for no other reason except it is popular.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe I have to state the blatantly obvious to you, but NS2 will have more game servers and leagues than NS does now, and everyone will start out pretty much a newbie. The "unfun" right now happens to you because you are playing a 7-year old game! There are only a few pub servers left (not full of 24/7 bots) so there are less and less places for experienced players to play. The league scene, gather/pickup game scene is pretty much dead because, hey it's a 7-year old mod. Also, the people left playing a 7-year old game are going to be primarly people that have been playing it for a very long time. All this <b>does not </b>mean that something is wrong with the gameplay or that it needs some kind of experience level separator to make it fun. The fact that you think that is what makes Halo 3 popular and commerically viable is amazing to me. Using your logic, you would not buy CounterStrike 2 because "gee everytime I log on to a CounterStrike server right now, everyone is too good and I get steamrolled and have no fun. Boy Valve sure needs to take a hint from those Halo guys". And if I have to remind you, I think CounterStrike was "pretty effing commerically successful".
<!--quoteo(post=1774054:date=Jun 9 2010, 01:57 AM:name=Kerostasis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kerostasis @ Jun 9 2010, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason this blindingly obvious fix hasn't been implented years ago is because it doesn't work quite the way you expect: You will stop bunnyhopping, yes, but you will also stop all cases where a player has a legitimate reason to be moving faster than max run speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nonsense, it has no unintended consequences.
<!--quoteo(post=1774054:date=Jun 9 2010, 01:57 AM:name=Kerostasis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kerostasis @ Jun 9 2010, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example: using leap, using blink, using a jetpack, falling long distances (you've just completely removed fall damage).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those additions to velocity are not affected because they don't occur in the air-acceleration function, they occur somewhere else. Your comment about gravity is doubly wrong, because you renormalize ground speed(x and y component), not the z-component.
It works just fine. I tested it with the gauss gun and everything; air control feels just like it should, you just don't accelerate.
ETA: Pseudo-code if you're still not getting it:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--><do stuff that may alter velocity>
air acceleration code: store copy of current x and y velocity. <original, unchanged air acceleration code we all know and love>. If new x-y speed has increased and is higher than runspeed, renormalize velocity in x-y plane to be same as the old(not max run speed. If you were hurtling through the air at twice max run speed due to leap, you still are).
<do other stuff that may alter velocity><!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--quoteo(post=1774341:date=Jun 10 2010, 10:42 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 10 2010, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we just had some sort of experience level separator, that wouldn't be a problem. How about I reference Starcraft 2 for no other reason except it is popular.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of fundamentally capping the skill ceiling of a game, the game makers should simply allow individual communities to have the option to make the game more newb friendly through the use of configs, regulations, or modding. This way new players will have places where they can learn with other newer players while leaving most servers available for players to be competitive and play their very best without having the game "cut them off" once they have reached a certain skill level.
Combat is a great example of this, it allowed newer players to experiment with marine equipment and alien lifeforms without having to worry about the consequences of dying and losing their lifeform/equipment. Saddly due to the extralevels plugin many players were all too happy to simply play combat all the time and never actually play real NS. However many players did benefit from the intended purpose of combat.
Having different leagues would also be an example of this but I don't think it's the best approach, nor would it be practical for a game which will likely have a rather small player base.
So again, instead of fundamentally altering the game to limit how good players can be out of fear of driving new players away, let the communities alter, config, mod, regulate etc. their servers in such a way that they can provide beginner friendly environments for new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1774414:date=Jun 11 2010, 10:36 AM:name=dawK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dawK @ Jun 11 2010, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of fundamentally capping the skill ceiling of a game, the game makers should simply allow individual communities to have the option to make the game more newb friendly through the use of configs, regulations, or modding. This way new players will have places where they can learn with other newer players while leaving most servers available for players to be competitive and play their very best without having the game "cut them off" once they have reached a certain skill level.
Combat is a great example of this, it allowed newer players to experiment with marine equipment and alien lifeforms without having to worry about the consequences of dying and losing their lifeform/equipment. Saddly due to the extralevels plugin many players were all too happy to simply play combat all the time and never actually play real NS. However many players did benefit from the intended purpose of combat.
Having different leagues would also be an example of this but I don't think it's the best approach, nor would it be practical for a game which will likely have a rather small player base.
So again, instead of fundamentally altering the game to limit how good players can be out of fear of driving new players away, let the communities alter, config, mod, regulate etc. their servers in such a way that they can provide beginner friendly environments for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea, but I'd suggest the reverse. Have the default settings be those which are friendly to the new players, and if comp players want a more competitive playing field, give them the ability to make what adjustments are needed to take it there. After all, it's far more likely the competitive players are going to be the ones aware of what's going on and taking care with their set-ups, choice of servers, etc, rather than the more casual players who will just want to get in there and play.
<!--quoteo(post=1774355:date=Jun 11 2010, 02:43 AM:name=PaLaGi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PaLaGi @ Jun 11 2010, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't believe I have to state the blatantly obvious to you, but NS2 will have more game servers and leagues than NS does now, and everyone will start out pretty much a newbie. The "unfun" right now happens to you because you are playing a 7-year old game! There are only a few pub servers left (not full of 24/7 bots) so there are less and less places for experienced players to play. The league scene, gather/pickup game scene is pretty much dead because, hey it's a 7-year old mod. Also, the people left playing a 7-year old game are going to be primarly people that have been playing it for a very long time. All this <b>does not </b>mean that something is wrong with the gameplay or that it needs some kind of experience level separator to make it fun. The fact that you think that is what makes Halo 3 popular and commerically viable is amazing to me. Using your logic, you would not buy CounterStrike 2 because "gee everytime I log on to a CounterStrike server right now, everyone is too good and I get steamrolled and have no fun. Boy Valve sure needs to take a hint from those Halo guys". And if I have to remind you, I think CounterStrike was "pretty effing commerically successful".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 is an FPS / RTS. And barely an RTS. So the "un fun" comes from highly skilled FPS players and has nothing to do wit RTS skill. From the very beginning of NS2's alpha, there will be a skill discrepancy because FPS players won't forget how to shoot all of a sudden because the game's name changed.
The experience level separator makes Halo 3 more fun. Why the Halo franchise is popular is an entirely different debate (honestly, I hate that game as a PC gamer; it's very slow in comparison to NS1). It certainly does not make the game commercially viable all by itself, but it does make online play more fun (lending to more sales).
I'm pretty good at NS1. I like the game. I have fun playing it and still play it. I just don't like unfair competition for anyone. It hurts newbies the most, but it also hurts skilled players and clanners because they have to fight people much worse than them if they just want to pick any random server and play.
<!--quoteo(post=1774414:date=Jun 11 2010, 11:36 AM:name=dawK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dawK @ Jun 11 2010, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of fundamentally capping the skill ceiling of a game, the game makers should simply allow individual communities to have the option to make the game more newb friendly through the use of configs, regulations, or modding. This way new players will have places where they can learn with other newer players while leaving most servers available for players to be competitive and play their very best without having the game "cut them off" once they have reached a certain skill level.
Combat is a great example of this, it allowed newer players to experiment with marine equipment and alien lifeforms without having to worry about the consequences of dying and losing their lifeform/equipment. Saddly due to the extralevels plugin many players were all too happy to simply play combat all the time and never actually play real NS. However many players did benefit from the intended purpose of combat.
Having different leagues would also be an example of this but I don't think it's the best approach, nor would it be practical for a game which will likely have a rather small player base.
So again, instead of fundamentally altering the game to limit how good players can be out of fear of driving new players away, let the communities alter, config, mod, regulate etc. their servers in such a way that they can provide beginner friendly environments for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The league system <i>raises</i> the skill ceiling of Starcraft 2 by making sure the best in the world fight each other instead of wasting a game or two completely destroying bad players with both hands tied behind their backs and not learning anything. I assume I didn't make myself clear because pitting the best players against each other will lead to higher skill. That is undeniable.
The league system doesn't "cut off" anyone or inhibit growth. It encourages skill growth and competition. Once a player gets "good enough" they graduate to a different league. Every league has the same amount of players and there are only 3 leagues. It doesn't matter which league you play in, you'll be playing the same amount of people.
If one is concerned about players being cut off from their low skilled friends or the reverse, then don't worry about it. There will certainly be some method of "non league" play where people can just get together and have a good time. Very simple to implement.
<!--quoteo(post=1774448:date=Jun 11 2010, 05:52 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 11 2010, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty good at NS1. I like the game. I have fun playing it and still play it. I just don't like unfair competition for anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 isn't unfair; everyone has equal opportunity to become a good player. What's unfair are the games that dole out handicaps for newcomers that allows them to compete at a level that doesn't reflect their actual skill.
So, here's my thought, I don't have a problem with skill based movement in principle, I just dislike the idea of skulks having seizures up and down hallways, trying to pull off some obscure movement patterns to get small speed bonuses.
So, instead of debating the worthiness of bunnyhop, why don't we work on coming up with an alternative?
--------------------------------------- Brainstorming: We build the mechanics around the kind of movement we want to encourage in the skulk. So, we want fast movement for the skulks, something that feels natural and smooth despite navigating complex environments. By sacrificing something (like your ability to react to threats) or taking a risk (like screwing up and stopping dead), we'd want the movement to be better than just running, either by speed or avoiding gunfire. We probably also want to encourage wall running, since it's awesome.
Idea: Maybe allow movement forward to build forward momentum, slowly increasing speed, but sharp turns will cause you to lose it, unless you leap to a wall, and time a leap away in the direction you want to travel, and if you time it right, you keep your momentum and speed in the new direction, otherwise you stop dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1774691:date=Jun 13 2010, 06:19 PM:name=Mortos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mortos @ Jun 13 2010, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Idea: Maybe allow movement forward to build forward momentum, slowly increasing speed, but sharp turns will cause you to lose it, unless you leap to a wall, and time a leap away in the direction you want to travel, and if you time it right, you keep your momentum and speed in the new direction, otherwise you stop dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slow momentum gain is exactly what skulk can't use. The whole idea is to have that explosive accelration to break the ambush and close get in minimal time. Map travel is nice too, but it's only one part of the importance. As Tjosan mentioned, running long hallways is what skulks aren't supposed to be doing.
How about bouncing off walls momentarily adds to your speed? As such you could move very fast indeed through closed spaces (vents) but only so-so on flat ground. I guess that might just be exacerbating their useful/lessness.
<!--quoteo(post=1774704:date=Jun 13 2010, 09:35 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 13 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about bouncing off walls momentarily adds to your speed? As such you could move very fast indeed through closed spaces (vents) but only so-so on flat ground. I guess that might just be exacerbating their useful/lessness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's an alternative, although I'm not sure whether it's much more inutive/easier than a properly set up bhop related movement. Being able to bounce off the walls usually requires pretty twichy mouse control to handle all the changes of direction and there aren't that many stepping stones so that you could learn the bounce twiching little by little. For example bunnyhop can be done with very minimalistic mouse movement at first and later developed into more fluent motion.
I'm not sure how such system would work on open spaces either. Combined with 1-hive leap it might serve as a part of the solution for sure though.
<!--quoteo(post=1774574:date=Jun 12 2010, 04:06 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 12 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 isn't unfair; everyone has equal opportunity to become a good player. What's unfair are the games that dole out handicaps for newcomers that allows them to compete at a level that doesn't reflect their actual skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely agree. No handicaps should be used. One should have access to the same in-game mechanics no matter how skilled they are.
By unfair competition I meant making the Red Sox play a little league base ball team. I don't like it. It's boring for the newbies and the clanners.
Here's a question for everyone that I think will generate intelligent discussion (not that we've degenerated into a flame war yet, good job all):
<b>What criterion are there for a bunny hop replacement if bunny hopping were to be replaced OR what do we want in an advanced movement system?</b>
For example: What would the player do to activate it?
What would it look like to an observer?
How much better would it be then just walking forward?
How tough would it be to learn?
...
Once we decide what the answers are to these questions and other like it, I think we can start talking about how we want bunny hopping to work in NS2.
I'll give my answers to the above questions:
What would the player do to activate it? Doesn't really matter what exact method is used. It should be possible given latency. Nothing which involves pressing twenty different buttons in 1 second or something which requires scripts to pull off. Strange mouse movement patterns are also a "no no". However, it should not be likely that someone do it "by accident". That would be bad, messing with player expectations, giving them "B" when they wanted "A".
What would it look like to an observer? It should look like other movement abilities, carrying the same aesthetic theme as the rest of the game (instead of weird hopping around in sinusoidal patterns). For marines, it should like something a human can do OR have some sort of prefabricated visual appear when its performed such as jets, light shows, whatever. If it just looks like someone hopping around and magically gaining speed, that's stupid. Again, I stress I have nothing against bunny hopping. If it could look more natural or if there were some developed in-game visual to go with the jumping, it would be better. Some of the complaints about bunny hopping is that it just doesn't make sense. For games, if something doesn't make sense, you've lost immersion, which is a big deal. People should see bunny hopping (or its replacement) in NS2 and go "Oh, okay, I see how that works" instead of "What the hell is that player doing and why are they gaining speed?".
How much better would it be then just walking forward? 2 times normal movement? Honestly, I don't know. Nothing too huge like 4x or 5x. When the speeds get too large, player speed balance is obviated. We shouldn't have players spawning, then getting to the other team's base in 1 second. There should be reaction time in troop movements so we can go "The marines are moving to the third hive location, kill the ###### out of 'em before they get there."/ "Aliens are rushing base, phase back".
How tough would it be to learn?
<u><b>It needs to be easy to explain, even over in-game voice chat. Otherwise its erudite.</b></u>
Easy to learn, difficult to master. It should be very easy to perform and very easily recognizable when the newbie has performed it correctly the first time. It should take some finesse to perform perfectly. A large amount of the complaints about bunny hopping is its difficulty to pull off. Not even <i>do well</i> but just straight up <i>pull off at all</i>. If bunny hopping were easy to pull off, a lot of complainers would say "Oh, okay, with some practice I can do what those really good players do." instead of "UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! WHINE! BAN! RAAARGH!" that we get right now.
Bunnyhopping, I honestly can't picture Skulks without bunnyhopping. How are they gonna evade stuff and like... be fun to play?
The whole point of the Skulk is its mobility, you are essentially removing a big part of their mobility if they can't jump around.
However, this problem might be able to be solved if Skulks get speed from jumping off walls, a cheaper 1-hive leap and etc. Bunnyhopping doesn't even have to be in the game, just give us something that lets us evade and progress at fast speeds without lowering the skillcap.
<!--quoteo(post=1774341:date=Jun 11 2010, 06:42 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 11 2010, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we just had some sort of experience level separator, that wouldn't be a problem. How about I reference Starcraft 2 for no other reason except it is popular.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you're wrong in several parts.
There are 5 leagues in SC2, not 3 - Bronze > Silver > Gold > Platinum > Diamond
"one can only fight others in their own league" is also wrong. When you win a lot, you will often get to play players one league up.
I dunno what you mean by "un fun" things. Do you mean bhopping is boring? I think bunnyhopping is pretty damn fun. Would you rather just walk in a straight line instead of jumping around in high speeds?
As for leagues, bring that to another topic. This thread is about bunnyhopping.
Muffy ofc, just removing the obstacles instead of jumping over them.
But I think there is nothing wrong with bunny hopping, if you cant jump to evade, it is way to easy to predict where you are going. And most games use different mobility for stuff in air, so that makes it not very op either against even sligthly skilled gamers.
<!--quoteo(post=1774699:date=Jun 13 2010, 08:13 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 13 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slow momentum gain is exactly what skulk can't use. The whole idea is to have that explosive accelration to break the ambush and close get in minimal time. Map travel is nice too, but it's only one part of the importance. As Tjosan mentioned, running long hallways is what skulks aren't supposed to be doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I didn't put too much thought into mine. I wasn't intending that to be a solution, I was just trying to get people talking about possible movement styles as opposed to shaking back and forth in an unintuitive fashion. There's gotta be a better way, and with the amount of intelligent people on this forum, I think we could do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1774750:date=Jun 14 2010, 07:08 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 14 2010, 07:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps moving the mouse in a circle will increase speed? The more perfect the circle is, the faster one moves?
What are the con's and pro's of that idea?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combine that with what? Is air curve still in?
If it's only speed gain mechanic that needs changing, I still think the Q3 method of strafejumping is pretty good. I tried discussing it on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109322" target="_blank">this</a> topic, it just never got much feedback on the mechanic itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1774770:date=Jun 14 2010, 10:20 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 14 2010, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't we just have it so each consecutive leap adds to your speed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It might work. I'm a little worried about the balancing though.
If every alien starts with speed gaining method, how are the less skilled marines going to cope with it? Is leap too strong if it's completely silent instead of the present yelling? Are you a sitting duck without adren?
I just hope they won't have to make too many compromises that eventually limit skulk.
Edit: Just to clarify, I think 1st hive leap is a decent option and can handle the speed gain at least partitially. The thingy I'm not completely sure is whether it can alone suit all levels of gameplay. As a blind guess I think it might be worth a try to have some kind of backup system, which supports the leap on the hands of more advanced players.
Don't trust the leap method as the rate of velocity increases, it can be helpful.
Marines don't even want to cope with skulks acting like projectiles they much rather find their mother.
I can't say for sure the rest, my hopes would rest on workling together and make a human wall to catch the skulk when no coping method is found. Somebody please give a better explanation, my thoughts are only limited to my knowledge i can't always say I'm right. How will marines cope with aliens going at high velocities, is leap too strong when removing the yell from the skulks, is adrenaline the key to efficient gaming tactics?
<!--quoteo(post=1774760:date=Jun 14 2010, 02:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 14 2010, 02:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's only speed gain mechanic that needs changing, I still think the Q3 method of strafejumping is pretty good. I tried discussing it on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109322" target="_blank">this</a> topic, it just never got much feedback on the mechanic itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really like the idea of strafe jumping.
I'm half way convinced that if the jumping part were nixed, it'd be perfect. That would make it easy to explain in-game over voice chat. Am I being anal about jumping, though?
If the skulk is in the air, it has neither acceleration or top speed cap. It'll keep gaining speed. If the skulk is on the floor, it has both acceleration and top speed cap. If it's going faster than the top speed it'll be slowed down to that speed and can't speed up past that. If the skulk is on any surface other than the floor it has an acceleration cap, but no top speed cap. So if it's going faster than the top speed (say from falling) it can keep that speed, but cannot accelerate further (until it's in the air again)
This promotes skulks running on ceiling and walls and trying to jump from wall to wall, wall to ceilling, or vice versa.
From the perspective of a former competitive player, bunny hopping was necessary for skulks because otherwise you would get wtfpwned in <1s to any good marine if you couldn't close in fast enough. The best way to take down a marine would be to bhop around a corner into him. The whole early game was balanced on this aspect and unless things drastically change a good marine team will absolutely crush an evenly-skilled alien team in the early game.
It's been confirmed Bunny-Hopping is not in the game for aliens or marines. Leap is a starting ability now, so expect your movement based skill to be dependent on this. Topic over.
<!--quoteo(post=1776735:date=Jul 3 2010, 12:33 AM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 3 2010, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been confirmed Bunny-Hopping is not in the game for aliens or marines. Leap is a starting ability now, so expect your movement based skill to be dependent on this. Topic over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Practilly killing the game, I fear you are wrong but if you have something to backup your troll go ahead.
Comments
Your solution has fairly significant unintended consequences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The method of a GROUND SPEED cap has been used for years. It does not interfere with the other abilities you mentioned because those are all air movement. It effectively limits only bunnyhop speed to what the developer wants. I'm pretty sure NS has one or else skulks would be able to go faster.
If we just had some sort of experience level separator, that wouldn't be a problem. How about I reference Starcraft 2 for no other reason except it is popular.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe I have to state the blatantly obvious to you, but NS2 will have more game servers and leagues than NS does now, and everyone will start out pretty much a newbie. The "unfun" right now happens to you because you are playing a 7-year old game! There are only a few pub servers left (not full of 24/7 bots) so there are less and less places for experienced players to play. The league scene, gather/pickup game scene is pretty much dead because, hey it's a 7-year old mod. Also, the people left playing a 7-year old game are going to be primarly people that have been playing it for a very long time. All this <b>does not </b>mean that something is wrong with the gameplay or that it needs some kind of experience level separator to make it fun. The fact that you think that is what makes Halo 3 popular and commerically viable is amazing to me. Using your logic, you would not buy CounterStrike 2 because "gee everytime I log on to a CounterStrike server right now, everyone is too good and I get steamrolled and have no fun. Boy Valve sure needs to take a hint from those Halo guys". And if I have to remind you, I think CounterStrike was "pretty effing commerically successful".
Nonsense, it has no unintended consequences.
<!--quoteo(post=1774054:date=Jun 9 2010, 01:57 AM:name=Kerostasis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kerostasis @ Jun 9 2010, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example: using leap, using blink, using a jetpack, falling long distances (you've just completely removed fall damage).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those additions to velocity are not affected because they don't occur in the air-acceleration function, they occur somewhere else. Your comment about gravity is doubly wrong, because you renormalize ground speed(x and y component), not the z-component.
It works just fine. I tested it with the gauss gun and everything; air control feels just like it should, you just don't accelerate.
ETA: Pseudo-code if you're still not getting it:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--><do stuff that may alter velocity>
air acceleration code:
store copy of current x and y velocity.
<original, unchanged air acceleration code we all know and love>.
If new x-y speed has increased and is higher than runspeed, renormalize velocity in x-y plane to be same as the old(not max run speed. If you were hurtling through the air at twice max run speed due to leap, you still are).
<do other stuff that may alter velocity><!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of fundamentally capping the skill ceiling of a game, the game makers should simply allow individual communities to have the option to make the game more newb friendly through the use of configs, regulations, or modding. This way new players will have places where they can learn with other newer players while leaving most servers available for players to be competitive and play their very best without having the game "cut them off" once they have reached a certain skill level.
Combat is a great example of this, it allowed newer players to experiment with marine equipment and alien lifeforms without having to worry about the consequences of dying and losing their lifeform/equipment. Saddly due to the extralevels plugin many players were all too happy to simply play combat all the time and never actually play real NS. However many players did benefit from the intended purpose of combat.
Having different leagues would also be an example of this but I don't think it's the best approach, nor would it be practical for a game which will likely have a rather small player base.
So again, instead of fundamentally altering the game to limit how good players can be out of fear of driving new players away, let the communities alter, config, mod, regulate etc. their servers in such a way that they can provide beginner friendly environments for new players.
Combat is a great example of this, it allowed newer players to experiment with marine equipment and alien lifeforms without having to worry about the consequences of dying and losing their lifeform/equipment. Saddly due to the extralevels plugin many players were all too happy to simply play combat all the time and never actually play real NS. However many players did benefit from the intended purpose of combat.
Having different leagues would also be an example of this but I don't think it's the best approach, nor would it be practical for a game which will likely have a rather small player base.
So again, instead of fundamentally altering the game to limit how good players can be out of fear of driving new players away, let the communities alter, config, mod, regulate etc. their servers in such a way that they can provide beginner friendly environments for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea, but I'd suggest the reverse. Have the default settings be those which are friendly to the new players, and if comp players want a more competitive playing field, give them the ability to make what adjustments are needed to take it there. After all, it's far more likely the competitive players are going to be the ones aware of what's going on and taking care with their set-ups, choice of servers, etc, rather than the more casual players who will just want to get in there and play.
NS1 is an FPS / RTS. And barely an RTS. So the "un fun" comes from highly skilled FPS players and has nothing to do wit RTS skill. From the very beginning of NS2's alpha, there will be a skill discrepancy because FPS players won't forget how to shoot all of a sudden because the game's name changed.
The experience level separator makes Halo 3 more fun. Why the Halo franchise is popular is an entirely different debate (honestly, I hate that game as a PC gamer; it's very slow in comparison to NS1). It certainly does not make the game commercially viable all by itself, but it does make online play more fun (lending to more sales).
I'm pretty good at NS1. I like the game. I have fun playing it and still play it. I just don't like unfair competition for anyone. It hurts newbies the most, but it also hurts skilled players and clanners because they have to fight people much worse than them if they just want to pick any random server and play.
<!--quoteo(post=1774414:date=Jun 11 2010, 11:36 AM:name=dawK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dawK @ Jun 11 2010, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of fundamentally capping the skill ceiling of a game, the game makers should simply allow individual communities to have the option to make the game more newb friendly through the use of configs, regulations, or modding. This way new players will have places where they can learn with other newer players while leaving most servers available for players to be competitive and play their very best without having the game "cut them off" once they have reached a certain skill level.
Combat is a great example of this, it allowed newer players to experiment with marine equipment and alien lifeforms without having to worry about the consequences of dying and losing their lifeform/equipment. Saddly due to the extralevels plugin many players were all too happy to simply play combat all the time and never actually play real NS. However many players did benefit from the intended purpose of combat.
Having different leagues would also be an example of this but I don't think it's the best approach, nor would it be practical for a game which will likely have a rather small player base.
So again, instead of fundamentally altering the game to limit how good players can be out of fear of driving new players away, let the communities alter, config, mod, regulate etc. their servers in such a way that they can provide beginner friendly environments for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The league system <i>raises</i> the skill ceiling of Starcraft 2 by making sure the best in the world fight each other instead of wasting a game or two completely destroying bad players with both hands tied behind their backs and not learning anything. I assume I didn't make myself clear because pitting the best players against each other will lead to higher skill. That is undeniable.
The league system doesn't "cut off" anyone or inhibit growth. It encourages skill growth and competition. Once a player gets "good enough" they graduate to a different league. Every league has the same amount of players and there are only 3 leagues. It doesn't matter which league you play in, you'll be playing the same amount of people.
If one is concerned about players being cut off from their low skilled friends or the reverse, then don't worry about it. There will certainly be some method of "non league" play where people can just get together and have a good time. Very simple to implement.
NS1 isn't unfair; everyone has equal opportunity to become a good player. What's unfair are the games that dole out handicaps for newcomers that allows them to compete at a level that doesn't reflect their actual skill.
So, instead of debating the worthiness of bunnyhop, why don't we work on coming up with an alternative?
---------------------------------------
Brainstorming: We build the mechanics around the kind of movement we want to encourage in the skulk. So, we want fast movement for the skulks, something that feels natural and smooth despite navigating complex environments. By sacrificing something (like your ability to react to threats) or taking a risk (like screwing up and stopping dead), we'd want the movement to be better than just running, either by speed or avoiding gunfire. We probably also want to encourage wall running, since it's awesome.
Idea: Maybe allow movement forward to build forward momentum, slowly increasing speed, but sharp turns will cause you to lose it, unless you leap to a wall, and time a leap away in the direction you want to travel, and if you time it right, you keep your momentum and speed in the new direction, otherwise you stop dead.
Slow momentum gain is exactly what skulk can't use. The whole idea is to have that explosive accelration to break the ambush and close get in minimal time. Map travel is nice too, but it's only one part of the importance. As Tjosan mentioned, running long hallways is what skulks aren't supposed to be doing.
I guess that might just be exacerbating their useful/lessness.
I guess that might just be exacerbating their useful/lessness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an alternative, although I'm not sure whether it's much more inutive/easier than a properly set up bhop related movement. Being able to bounce off the walls usually requires pretty twichy mouse control to handle all the changes of direction and there aren't that many stepping stones so that you could learn the bounce twiching little by little. For example bunnyhop can be done with very minimalistic mouse movement at first and later developed into more fluent motion.
I'm not sure how such system would work on open spaces either. Combined with 1-hive leap it might serve as a part of the solution for sure though.
I absolutely agree. No handicaps should be used. One should have access to the same in-game mechanics no matter how skilled they are.
By unfair competition I meant making the Red Sox play a little league base ball team. I don't like it. It's boring for the newbies and the clanners.
Can everyone agree to the above?
<b>What criterion are there for a bunny hop replacement if bunny hopping were to be replaced OR what do we want in an advanced movement system?</b>
For example:
What would the player do to activate it?
What would it look like to an observer?
How much better would it be then just walking forward?
How tough would it be to learn?
...
Once we decide what the answers are to these questions and other like it, I think we can start talking about how we want bunny hopping to work in NS2.
I'll give my answers to the above questions:
What would the player do to activate it?
Doesn't really matter what exact method is used. It should be possible given latency. Nothing which involves pressing twenty different buttons in 1 second or something which requires scripts to pull off. Strange mouse movement patterns are also a "no no". However, it should not be likely that someone do it "by accident". That would be bad, messing with player expectations, giving them "B" when they wanted "A".
What would it look like to an observer?
It should look like other movement abilities, carrying the same aesthetic theme as the rest of the game (instead of weird hopping around in sinusoidal patterns). For marines, it should like something a human can do OR have some sort of prefabricated visual appear when its performed such as jets, light shows, whatever. If it just looks like someone hopping around and magically gaining speed, that's stupid. Again, I stress I have nothing against bunny hopping. If it could look more natural or if there were some developed in-game visual to go with the jumping, it would be better. Some of the complaints about bunny hopping is that it just doesn't make sense. For games, if something doesn't make sense, you've lost immersion, which is a big deal. People should see bunny hopping (or its replacement) in NS2 and go "Oh, okay, I see how that works" instead of "What the hell is that player doing and why are they gaining speed?".
How much better would it be then just walking forward?
2 times normal movement? Honestly, I don't know. Nothing too huge like 4x or 5x. When the speeds get too large, player speed balance is obviated. We shouldn't have players spawning, then getting to the other team's base in 1 second. There should be reaction time in troop movements so we can go "The marines are moving to the third hive location, kill the ###### out of 'em before they get there."/ "Aliens are rushing base, phase back".
How tough would it be to learn?
<u><b>It needs to be easy to explain, even over in-game voice chat. Otherwise its erudite.</b></u>
Easy to learn, difficult to master. It should be very easy to perform and very easily recognizable when the newbie has performed it correctly the first time. It should take some finesse to perform perfectly. A large amount of the complaints about bunny hopping is its difficulty to pull off. Not even <i>do well</i> but just straight up <i>pull off at all</i>. If bunny hopping were easy to pull off, a lot of complainers would say "Oh, okay, with some practice I can do what those really good players do." instead of "UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! WHINE! BAN! RAAARGH!" that we get right now.
Is this chill with everyone?
The whole point of the Skulk is its mobility, you are essentially removing a big part of their mobility if they can't jump around.
However, this problem might be able to be solved if Skulks get speed from jumping off walls, a cheaper 1-hive leap and etc. Bunnyhopping doesn't even have to be in the game, just give us something that lets us evade and progress at fast speeds without lowering the skillcap.
<!--quoteo(post=1774341:date=Jun 11 2010, 06:42 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 11 2010, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we just had some sort of experience level separator, that wouldn't be a problem. How about I reference Starcraft 2 for no other reason except it is popular.
Starcraft 2 has 3 leagues. To graduate from a low league to a high league, one has to win matches, and one can only fight others in their league. This means that one doesn't get steam rolled by people way better than them and really good players don't get bored steam rolling terrible players.
This "un fun" behavior happens all the time in NS1.
NS2 is a game. In games, the object is to have fun. "Un fun" things must go.
If Unknown Worlds doesn't take the hint and somehow copy Halo 3 and Starcraft 2 (You know, the really effing commercially successful games) and implement leagues or something similar I will not buy NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you're wrong in several parts.
There are 5 leagues in SC2, not 3 - Bronze > Silver > Gold > Platinum > Diamond
"one can only fight others in their own league" is also wrong. When you win a lot, you will often get to play players one league up.
I dunno what you mean by "un fun" things. Do you mean bhopping is boring?
I think bunnyhopping is pretty damn fun. Would you rather just walk in a straight line instead of jumping around in high speeds?
As for leagues, bring that to another topic. This thread is about bunnyhopping.
Muffy ofc, just removing the obstacles instead of jumping over them.
But I think there is nothing wrong with bunny hopping, if you cant jump to evade, it is way to easy to predict where you are going. And most games use different mobility for stuff in air, so that makes it not very op either against even sligthly skilled gamers.
Yeah, I didn't put too much thought into mine. I wasn't intending that to be a solution, I was just trying to get people talking about possible movement styles as opposed to shaking back and forth in an unintuitive fashion. There's gotta be a better way, and with the amount of intelligent people on this forum, I think we could do it.
What are the con's and pro's of that idea?
What are the con's and pro's of that idea?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combine that with what? Is air curve still in?
If it's only speed gain mechanic that needs changing, I still think the Q3 method of strafejumping is pretty good. I tried discussing it on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109322" target="_blank">this</a> topic, it just never got much feedback on the mechanic itself.
It might work. I'm a little worried about the balancing though.
If every alien starts with speed gaining method, how are the less skilled marines going to cope with it? Is leap too strong if it's completely silent instead of the present yelling? Are you a sitting duck without adren?
I just hope they won't have to make too many compromises that eventually limit skulk.
Edit: Just to clarify, I think 1st hive leap is a decent option and can handle the speed gain at least partitially. The thingy I'm not completely sure is whether it can alone suit all levels of gameplay. As a blind guess I think it might be worth a try to have some kind of backup system, which supports the leap on the hands of more advanced players.
Marines don't even want to cope with skulks acting like projectiles they much rather find their mother.
I can't say for sure the rest, my hopes would rest on workling together and make a human wall to catch the skulk when no coping method is found. Somebody please give a better explanation, my thoughts are only limited to my knowledge i can't always say I'm right. How will marines cope with aliens going at high velocities, is leap too strong when removing the yell from the skulks, is adrenaline the key to efficient gaming tactics?
I really like the idea of strafe jumping.
I'm half way convinced that if the jumping part were nixed, it'd be perfect. That would make it easy to explain in-game over voice chat. Am I being anal about jumping, though?
If the skulk is in the air, it has neither acceleration or top speed cap. It'll keep gaining speed.
If the skulk is on the floor, it has both acceleration and top speed cap. If it's going faster than the top speed it'll be slowed down to that speed and can't speed up past that.
If the skulk is on any surface other than the floor it has an acceleration cap, but no top speed cap. So if it's going faster than the top speed (say from falling) it can keep that speed, but cannot accelerate further (until it's in the air again)
This promotes skulks running on ceiling and walls and trying to jump from wall to wall, wall to ceilling, or vice versa.
Practilly killing the game, I fear you are wrong but if you have something to backup your troll go ahead.